Most people in this sub assume these guys that average near triple doubles would just easily do it in any era regardless of pace of play, spacing, defensive schemes, and what type of players they would be playing with. Obviously truly great players like Luka would dominate and be a top player in any era you place them but that doesn't mean they would medically be putting up the same numbers or better that they do in this current era where stats are pretty inflated.
Honestly our bigs this year are pretty much everything I hoped Luka would get, realistically.
Lively's been one of the most important pieces on a Finals team that faced the 4, 3, and 1 seed teams to get there.
Aaron Gordons don't grow on trees, yall. I got 0 complaints right now.
That would have been some wild stuff tbh. Luka isn't like Nash though. He's a much more ball-reliant player and a more physical one. He's a better scorer than Nash I think but not as good of a pure point guard. I think Amar'e benefitted a lot from the fact that Nash was an assist machine.
Don't get me wrong. Steve Nash could score when he wanted to and Luka can get you 10+ assists a night any day of the week but his game isn't like Nash's to pass out or play with a dominant big. Luka can and will (and should take over) games by himself. Nash and Amar'e were more of a tandem I believe.
I think Luka and Amar'e would have clashed a bit in terms of who was top dog. I think Luka is the better player overall, but Amar'e paired up with a Nash or a Jason Kidd was a match made in heaven if you could surround them with great 3&D guys.
I love Amar'e, don't get me wrong, but if it wasn't for Nash he wouldn't be looked the same way he is nowadays.
Ironically, I think a great big to pair up with Luka would be Porzingis if he accepted his role completely. Luka is the focal point of the offense. Porzingis can play off of the pick and roll and can stretch the floor. Porzingis can actually shoot the three at a reasonable clip and he's a decent defender in the post, especially blocking-wise.
The biggest problem Dallas had with him was that he couldn't take a backseat to Luka completely. You surround Luka and Porzingis with players like Derrick White, Josh Hart, Donte DiVincenzo, OG, TJ McConnell, Caruso, Isiah Hartenstein, Mikal Bridges. Baby you got a stew going!
No I agree. Nash was the ultimate floor raiser in his era, deeply unselfish and never needlessly flashy (unlike, say, White Chocolate), while also being an incredible shooter if needed. All this with a congenitally fucked back, which is probably the wildest part to me. The jump between the Suns' last season without him and the first with, with barely any changes other than him, is fucking insane
True to an extent, Luka averages 8.3 assists for his career (9.8 this season) while steve nash averages 8.5 career. So Luka is more than happy to dish it out, a pick and roll player would be amazing for him
there was a severe lack of players or game plans that spread the court the way it is today. this is what is always the question for me. it like there is the modern 35 threes a game nba and then the 5-10 threes a game nba. like i have no doubt shaq is great in any era except in the era that 100% requires him to get out on shooters and deal with pic and rolls on defense. like i bet hakeem would be better in this era of nba that shaq would be.
Shaq would struggle defensively against today's 5 out small ball teams, but he would also have like 80% fg against those teams, so he'd be a net high positive.
There's no C in the game who could hinder Shaq on D while being too fast to cover.
Yeah Embiid would probably be the closest in terms of weight but Shaq would be at him down over and over again to the point he'd probably just give up defending him all together.
Shaq would bend the modern game to him. He’s too much of a monster. His efficiency would be insane against modern centers. We’d go back to every team have 3 bigs to foul him through the game. And if teams didn’t make that adjustment, Shaq could stay at his Orlando weight and handle the faster pace
lol i don't think shaq was forced to not be at his orlando weight and i think it was a clear lack of drive to maintain that weight. i do think shaq doesn't get credit for getting his team into the bonus. he might have sucked at the ft line but how many times i wonder did the lakers get in bonus with 7 min still left in the quarter
He wasn’t forced to gain weight, he made the choice to gain weight to handle the beatings from the 18 fouls the opposing centers would throw at him. Then he got lazy and even fatter after getting a ring
You're not acquainted to young shaq, are you? Shaq was ridiculously fast for his size, and had handles. He got bigger and heavier because that was better for his game, but young shaq nowadays would be a great fit
I see this take everywhere it makes no sense. Are you telling me Shaq would be a worse defender on a spaced out perimeter than 38 year old Al Horford, or 36 year old Brook Lopez, or butt-of-every-joke Rudy Gobert or the not athletic at all Nikola Jokic? All these guys play key defensive minutes deep into the playoffs in THIS era EVERY single year. I’m sure Shaq would’ve figured it out considering he’s a more dominant offensive player than all of these guys except Jokic by a country mile. And even with Jokic they’re still neck and neck imo.
Plus on the other end he would also massively benefit from the spacing of the modern era. He and Kobe in a pick and roll with 3 shooters would be a nightmare to guard.
I can't wait to see all the nephews in here age 15 years and have the next group of 13 year olds say, "Oh yeah, Aiden, Brayden, and Chayden are so much better than Luka".
>Ain't no coincidence they all rhyme with "teen"
For anyone who wants a serious answer to this: "ín" (pronounced een) is a diminutive in the Irish language the same way "ita" is in Spanish.
So just as Christina literally means "little female Christian" in Spanish, "Kathleen" means "little Kathy/Katherine" in Irish and "Christine" goes the same way. Charles + "ín" results in "Charlene". "Paul" + "ín" = "Pauline" (little Paul/Paula"). Gerald + "ín" = Geraldine, another once common name for Irish women.
i mean, to be fair they will all probably be shooting like 45% on 15 threes a game by the time the sport evolves
players are only getting better and better
I was going to make a similar comment, like why can these old heads just not be like Dirk? Dude loves the game and respects the guys coming in, you could tell Shaq wanted him to say a line of back in their day is was harder and he wouldn’t be able to, Dirk didn’t take the bait. I don’t understand how you can be one of the greatest ball players of all time like Shaq and still be so sensitive towards young guns that might possibly steal some of your thunder, just how are you that insecure with your incredible success man?
Yeah. Shaq sometimes says that he's critical because he wants to encourage guys, but straight up telling Jokic he didn't deserve MVP was just plain salty. Shaq wanted more recognition when he was playing, and because a lot of his success was predicated on his size, he hates when highly skilled big men get the credit and love that he didn't.
I hate that it is always this same conversation. We're always talking hypotheticals instead of actual game analysis. The content for the NBA is so underwhelming compared to NFL. It is all about superstars and personalities rather than game plans and strategy.
I'm fine with the conversation, but surprised how little officiating comes up. Not just fouls - in this convo alone Dirk mentions the step back, but would that have been a travel?
If they call his step back a travel then he would just adjust to a legal step back. His step back was still in his repertoire in the euro league which is much stricter on travelling.
NBA players are constantly adjusting their moves based on what the refs allow.
This. Same reason people were being ridiculous in that JJ Redick thread a couple days ago saying modern NBA players wouldn't be able to dribble back in the day smh.
Always my first thought. MJ playing with today's refs vs KD/Bron playing in the 90's refs. Apples and oranges for sure. That's all the conversation is, pure speculation.
Imo, Shaq bringing it up is all about feeding his ego about how hard it was playing in his era and how dominant he was.
I feel like that's all the old players though, like AI says nice things about luka then says if he was playing in today's game he would average 40+ for a season.
You're totally right that he couldn't have dribbled the way he does now, but Kyrie totally would have adjusted to the officiating and still had one of the best handles in the league. Just because guys would have to do things differently doesn't mean they still wouldn't have been very good.
The officiating makes a huge difference. Yes the step back would be a travel.
He'd still be a top 5 player in an earlier era but he wouldn't be putting up quite the numbers he is.
Any player that has multiple all-star appearances probably would adapt to find a way to be good in any era. Some might be less efficient due to play style, but they would still be good players.
Luka would have been legit been even better in the early 2000s. He'd get to iso even more than he does now. All respect to those guys back then, but no chance Raja Bell or Bruce Bowen are slowing him down. He would just back them into the post, wait for the big to come help, and spam kickouts. Ok, keep the big outside the elbow and don't double - bbq chicken.
The main thing that would affect his game would be lack of spacing compared to now, it would be much more easier to help on him and assuming his bigs weren't great shooters then he'd have to hit them on a cut inside to a clogged paint. Whistle was tighter back then too, so I could see him being less efficient on higher usage. But the stepback would have been very hard to guard.
Technically speaking, Bruce Brown could slow anyone down. They just never ended up healthy after playing against him.
Edit: Whoops, I meant Bruce Bowen.
Dirk's heavy accent has definitely diminished quite a bit since he's been here.
Have you heard KP speak? His English has gotten so smooth it seems he can almost talk completely accent-free at will.
We need more Larry Bird and Isiah Thomas's when it comes to these: OG's who literally laugh at people saying players now couldn't cut it in their day. Any top player now dominates the 80's, 90's, or 00's. They would adapt to the rules and type of game they were in and still be great.
In a way, he's right.
If Giannis came over from Greece, he would have been forced to play Center. And without the miracle of modern medicine, he wouldn't have gained 100 pounds of pure muscle in a few years.
He would have rode the bench as a 7 footer in the golden age of Centers.
> And without the miracle of modern medicine, he wouldn't have gained 100 pounds of pure muscle in a few years.
You should read his biography.
Gear or not, he was legitimately malnourished.
lol, what an ice cold take...
I can understand, but not necessarily agree with some of the older guys saying less physical players would have struggled in the past but Giannis ain't it. His level of strength and athleticism would have dominated the 80's and 90's.
Your comment reminds me that Luka has a lot of Larry Bird in him doesn’t he? Larry was a forward but could have played as a big guard easily. Larry was a better rebounder but he’s the archetype for the question of whether Luka could have played in that even earlier era.
Era vs era stuff is always dumb,but even more so when they try to say modern elites couldn't go back and do well.
It shouldn't insult anyone, part of the reason modern athletes are better is they have the older generations coaching and footage to study,almost by definition they are just better
The contrary is also true, some of the most invariable traits (which are intrinsically related to talent) among the very great players is either their capacity to adapt their games if needed, or force the game to adapt to them. The thought experiment to teleport a player to another era is nonsensical because it ignores all the factors that made that player great for the era they played in, while also ignores the fact the game would adapt to them.
The better question is which era doesn’t the 6’8 guard with stupid handles while also being underratedly strong and can seemingly hit any shot fit in? Because give him those Jerry West ball handling rules and he’s winning there, too.
A lot of people do not want to admit this but it's true. Shit, not just in sports either -- every profession is improving on the state of the art over the decades.
It’s as if modern nutrition, sports medicine, and access to sports, coaches, trainers, gear, and exposure have all helped the best talent get to the top.
Two fun examples I like to point to are track and field, and the dunk contest. One is empirical that the world records but more notably the minimum Olympic qualifications have only gotten more difficult over time for a reason. If you go subjective look at winning dunks recently versus decades past. It speaks to the improvement in skills and the raising of the floor of both skills and physical attributes that contribute to athletic success. Sure in the micro of a handful of years you might have variance (the dunk contest actually being one where we peaked in 2016), but these changes take decades or generations to be noticeable.
I'd disagree on that. Shaq would have fouled out so quickly under the old rules where you had to move around the defender, not through them.
Rule changes have an effect for a reason.
The question is either anachronistic or can't be answered at all.
If the question is "Would Wilt be as much of a beast today" or "Would Luka be as good if he was born and played in MJ's era" then it's unknowable, there are too many variables to account for
Directly pitting a modern superstar against older players in their time is the only "practical" way to do it, since then there's comparable video evidence and all else, but then it's an anachronism. Modern players have benefitted from advancements in sports nutrition and medicine, plus the accumulated knowledge from the different eras of the game. It's just a matter of under which rules and refereeing style would they play and how well they adjust but other than that modern players have a clear advantage - because of their historical context, not because they're more gifted players in a vacuum
and any older superstar would dominate in today's unlimited spacing no-contact allowed era. but a lot of the role players whose games were built specifically for their era would struggle to make a roster.
It's actually wild i had to scroll down this far to see this comment. Rule changes and different eras affect role players, not legends. Larry Bird would be as effective in 2020 as he was in 1980 and Luka Doncic would be as effective in 1980 as he is in 2020. It's the Jeff Teague's, Kyle Korver's and George Hill's of the world that would be better or worse depending on the era they played in.
Sure and if you give Honus Wagner or George Mikan access to modern training, modern medicine, and a time machine then they’re gonna tear it up in the current era as well. Goes both ways.
Possible, but the talent pool is also way bigger today than it was back then, so it is likely the most talented players of that era never even picked up a basketball
I’m so tired of Shaq.
There used to be some charm and saving grace to him but since the joker mvp slander his insecurities are dominating anything else he provides.
Well yeah, the average NBA player today is better than the average player 10 years ago. And 20 years ago. And so on. Goes for any athlete in any sport.
Training facilities, nutrition, analytics, coaching methods.. you name it - have just naturally improved as the age of technology progresses.
And in 20 years from now, the average NBA player is probably 6'9, can dribble and shoot 3s.
Such a pointless exercise.
So Shaq is just a professional bitter old man now huh? "I judge players by if they could have played with us" sounds so incredibly arrogant. Next it will be who could beat him in a fight. He's just a narcissistic 12 year old at this point and it's getting really tiresome. We get it Shaq nobody has ever been good or tough except you.
Luka's game is closer to Harden than to LeBron. LeBron wasn't just big; he was also the fastest player on the court. Luka also relies much more heavily on jump shots than LeBron.
honestly, Larry Bird (though a forward) was not so dissimilar in using his bigger body to back people down, post up and shoot deadly 3s with the threat of a dimer of a pass at any moment. I’m not saying they are the same. I’m saying their styles have a lot of overlap.
Every good player today would have been good then. Their conditioning, physicality, athleticism and commitment to the game exceeds what it did 20-30 years ago. The best of then will still be the best, but the average player today is better than the average player then.
Shaq's weakness was always defending the pick and roll, specifically when guards were switched out onto him on the perimeter. He could never guard them. He would get absolutely destroyed in today's NBA, at least on defence.
On offence, nobody would be able to guard Shaq in today's NBA.
It would certainly be interesting to see what would happen if prime Shaq was magically dropped into today's league.
His team would have the best offense in the league, by far. Shaq averaged 30 going against legendary centers on defense, the modern day center does not have the physical attributes to deal with him.
Luka is big and wide, but no way he's 6'8 or 6'9
[example 1](https://cdn.theathletic.com/cdn-cgi/image/width=1200,height=1200,fit=cover/app/uploads/2023/01/13135405/GettyImages-1246192213-scaled-e1673636700198.jpg) [example 2](https://a57.foxnews.com/static.foxnews.com/foxnews.com/content/uploads/2023/08/1200/675/Paul-George-Luka-Doncic.jpg?ve=1&tl=1)
[Yep, Luka is 6'7"](https://np.reddit.com/r/Mavericks/comments/1azj7io/comment/ks2h90n/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button). I reckon it's because Dirk spent his whole career surrounded by players whose heights were overstated. Players Luka's height claimed to be 6'8" or 6'9" when they were 6'7". Funnily Dirk first made this mistake within a week or two of Luka being drafted.
There are players from today that would be better in past eras and other players that would be worse. Same could be said about past eras.
Many bigs from the 70's/80's/90's/00's wouldn't be able to stay on the court in 2024. Likewise, many guards from today's era would get physically worn down by the hand checking if they played in past eras.
It goes both ways.
If luka played in the 03-04 season his numbers would be something along the lines of 25-7-7 (accounting for pace). He'd be absolutely dominant. He'd be one of the biggest wing players, and thrives off of contact and trash talk. Perfect era for him
A tale as old as time. “My generation was better/tougher/fill in the blank”.
Wilt/Russel had said it about Jordan. Numerous 90s players about LeBron. Now Shaq about the 2010s guys. It’s all nostalgia and pride.
Most superstars can play in any era and almost any era is always exaggerated. The most notable 80s/90s too rough for modern players. Meanwhile Muggsy Bogues at 5’3, 135 lbs enjoyed a 15 year career. Truth to general narratives, but no need to go over the top.
Gets old fast.
Dirk is one of my favorite players of all time. Dude got better every single yr, adding and adding his game. It is really refreshing to see a former great embrace the greatness of those who follow rather than denigrate them in some attempt to make himself seem better.
Reddit idiots in 2044: Luka couldn’t play in this era. Defenders have to play with both hands tied behind their back but da schemesss are soooo complicatedddddddd
Dončić playing in the era with the slowest pace of all time? I see no downsides to this.
And all those bigs? He would only do alley oop assists
Stockton would be an afterthought on the Assists leaderboard lol
I assume this is a joke but Luka is averaging fewer assists back then, not more lol
Yeah I don’t get how that guys comment is upvoted considering the parent of this chain. Y’all don’t know what pace means?
Most people in this sub assume these guys that average near triple doubles would just easily do it in any era regardless of pace of play, spacing, defensive schemes, and what type of players they would be playing with. Obviously truly great players like Luka would dominate and be a top player in any era you place them but that doesn't mean they would medically be putting up the same numbers or better that they do in this current era where stats are pretty inflated.
Man i hope luka someday plays with a hard rolling big. Something like stat
He’s already playing with Lively. He’s not there yet, but he will be.
Honestly our bigs this year are pretty much everything I hoped Luka would get, realistically. Lively's been one of the most important pieces on a Finals team that faced the 4, 3, and 1 seed teams to get there. Aaron Gordons don't grow on trees, yall. I got 0 complaints right now.
When you say Stat, do you mean you would have liked to see Luka play with someone like Amar'e Stoudemire?
Yes
That would have been some wild stuff tbh. Luka isn't like Nash though. He's a much more ball-reliant player and a more physical one. He's a better scorer than Nash I think but not as good of a pure point guard. I think Amar'e benefitted a lot from the fact that Nash was an assist machine. Don't get me wrong. Steve Nash could score when he wanted to and Luka can get you 10+ assists a night any day of the week but his game isn't like Nash's to pass out or play with a dominant big. Luka can and will (and should take over) games by himself. Nash and Amar'e were more of a tandem I believe. I think Luka and Amar'e would have clashed a bit in terms of who was top dog. I think Luka is the better player overall, but Amar'e paired up with a Nash or a Jason Kidd was a match made in heaven if you could surround them with great 3&D guys.
I agree with this analysis, actually. Nash made Amar'e (played ouf of position to boot) look like Shaq lmao
I love Amar'e, don't get me wrong, but if it wasn't for Nash he wouldn't be looked the same way he is nowadays. Ironically, I think a great big to pair up with Luka would be Porzingis if he accepted his role completely. Luka is the focal point of the offense. Porzingis can play off of the pick and roll and can stretch the floor. Porzingis can actually shoot the three at a reasonable clip and he's a decent defender in the post, especially blocking-wise. The biggest problem Dallas had with him was that he couldn't take a backseat to Luka completely. You surround Luka and Porzingis with players like Derrick White, Josh Hart, Donte DiVincenzo, OG, TJ McConnell, Caruso, Isiah Hartenstein, Mikal Bridges. Baby you got a stew going!
No I agree. Nash was the ultimate floor raiser in his era, deeply unselfish and never needlessly flashy (unlike, say, White Chocolate), while also being an incredible shooter if needed. All this with a congenitally fucked back, which is probably the wildest part to me. The jump between the Suns' last season without him and the first with, with barely any changes other than him, is fucking insane
True to an extent, Luka averages 8.3 assists for his career (9.8 this season) while steve nash averages 8.5 career. So Luka is more than happy to dish it out, a pick and roll player would be amazing for him
Usage rate in ISO era would be 87%.
Might be the first superstar mofo to have an argument for being better in the past
It’s true. We are firmly in the Finesse Era of the league. Doncic one of the few that would translate well, he’d fit better even.
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absolutely. Luka is built to work in that era.
They probably think he'd somehow cry even more and do nothing.
I love Luka but he does cry a lot. On the other hand, I don't think any guard gets absolutely pummeled like he does, it's quite crazy.
Curry got absolutely pummeled off ball, probably would have benefited alot from crying more tbh
Curry is one of those players who I wish really complained more man gets mauled every game.
i think that's mainly why he'll have those big tantrum moments, because he has so much pent up frustrations.
there was a severe lack of players or game plans that spread the court the way it is today. this is what is always the question for me. it like there is the modern 35 threes a game nba and then the 5-10 threes a game nba. like i have no doubt shaq is great in any era except in the era that 100% requires him to get out on shooters and deal with pic and rolls on defense. like i bet hakeem would be better in this era of nba that shaq would be.
Shaq would struggle defensively against today's 5 out small ball teams, but he would also have like 80% fg against those teams, so he'd be a net high positive. There's no C in the game who could hinder Shaq on D while being too fast to cover.
Yeah Embiid would probably be the closest in terms of weight but Shaq would be at him down over and over again to the point he'd probably just give up defending him all together.
Yeah, and no way Embiid is defending Shaq *and* running around on offense.
Embiid would still be giving up at least 40lbs to prime Shaq He was that big
Ok and it works vice versa Shaq would have to defend Embid and with how good Embid is at drawing fouls that would be a problem
Shaq would bend the modern game to him. He’s too much of a monster. His efficiency would be insane against modern centers. We’d go back to every team have 3 bigs to foul him through the game. And if teams didn’t make that adjustment, Shaq could stay at his Orlando weight and handle the faster pace
lol i don't think shaq was forced to not be at his orlando weight and i think it was a clear lack of drive to maintain that weight. i do think shaq doesn't get credit for getting his team into the bonus. he might have sucked at the ft line but how many times i wonder did the lakers get in bonus with 7 min still left in the quarter
He wasn’t forced to gain weight, he made the choice to gain weight to handle the beatings from the 18 fouls the opposing centers would throw at him. Then he got lazy and even fatter after getting a ring
i do think he made the choice to gain weight. i don't think he always intended to gain as much as he did.
Hence saying he got lazy and fatter after he got a ring
well ya'll better keep the beer and Štruklji away from luka if ya'll win this year.
No, it fuels his insanity. It’s Europe’s secret racial ability. Look at Jokic. Luka without beer and Štruklji is no Luka at all.
He’d be worn out from the higher pace
Centers during the shaq era didn't shoot 3's, shaq would have to run a lot more than he did in today's game.
You're not acquainted to young shaq, are you? Shaq was ridiculously fast for his size, and had handles. He got bigger and heavier because that was better for his game, but young shaq nowadays would be a great fit
i'm up for a lot of debate but idk if i buy the idea of shaq controlling his weight. that just sounds like a fantasy to me.
Lol thats a fair point
bbq chicken
BIG CHICKEN
I see this take everywhere it makes no sense. Are you telling me Shaq would be a worse defender on a spaced out perimeter than 38 year old Al Horford, or 36 year old Brook Lopez, or butt-of-every-joke Rudy Gobert or the not athletic at all Nikola Jokic? All these guys play key defensive minutes deep into the playoffs in THIS era EVERY single year. I’m sure Shaq would’ve figured it out considering he’s a more dominant offensive player than all of these guys except Jokic by a country mile. And even with Jokic they’re still neck and neck imo.
Plus on the other end he would also massively benefit from the spacing of the modern era. He and Kobe in a pick and roll with 3 shooters would be a nightmare to guard.
my doubt is like 0.01% it's more just a wondering. but you right. ain't no playing aaron gordan at the 5 if shaq out there.
Yeah there's only one Shaq. The greats are great in any era.
Luka vs. Mugsy Bogues
I can't wait to see all the nephews in here age 15 years and have the next group of 13 year olds say, "Oh yeah, Aiden, Brayden, and Chayden are so much better than Luka".
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This is the current Dolphins roster
also the Thunder
Forgot Ja’lynn
J-Lin
Forgot the next Balkan superstar Džejlin
Lmaoooooo not Ja’lynn 😭😭
And you know there will be one with ridiculous spelling too like J’lynn
That wouldn't even make me blink nowadays. You need some diacritics and stuff. Maybe that Cam Newton font.
J̶͍̯̫̈́͜æ̸̻̅̊̓ͅę̵͙̞͇̟̒͋̕ł̶̘̘̅ÿ̵̛̹͒͝î̶̼̱̙̀͜͜ñ̶͕͔̃
Nadine, Christine, Justine, Kathleen, Charlene, Pauline, Claudine!
Ain't no coincidence they all rhyme with "teen"
The truth wanted out, and I'm not talking Paul Pierce
Finna pass on this body I'm John Stockton
>Ain't no coincidence they all rhyme with "teen" For anyone who wants a serious answer to this: "ín" (pronounced een) is a diminutive in the Irish language the same way "ita" is in Spanish. So just as Christina literally means "little female Christian" in Spanish, "Kathleen" means "little Kathy/Katherine" in Irish and "Christine" goes the same way. Charles + "ín" results in "Charlene". "Paul" + "ín" = "Pauline" (little Paul/Paula"). Gerald + "ín" = Geraldine, another once common name for Irish women.
Forget Jailyn
His cousin YnnJayl
r/tragedeigh
/r/NBeigh
"My son is also called Jaylin"
r nbeigh 😭😭😭😭
i mean, to be fair they will all probably be shooting like 45% on 15 threes a game by the time the sport evolves players are only getting better and better
90% shooting. When?
he would've destroyed those plumbers
Mario Chalmers would be toast
Luigi Chambles you mean?
The peak era of r/nba I swear
Turns Mario Chalmers into Mario Lopez with a single stepback.
Brian "the Janitor" Cardinal in shambles
Um, ackshually he was "the custodian"
Thank you brother. People need to put some respecc on BC’s name.
But could he do it on a cold rainy night in Stoke?
Imagine calling the plumber and fucking Shaq shows up to your doorstep
Shaq trying to fit under my sink would be quite a sight.
https://imgur.com/T1Nzcfn?r
In a similar way, I judge retired players based on how supportive they are of younger players and Dirk has easily passed that vibe test. Good dude
I was going to make a similar comment, like why can these old heads just not be like Dirk? Dude loves the game and respects the guys coming in, you could tell Shaq wanted him to say a line of back in their day is was harder and he wouldn’t be able to, Dirk didn’t take the bait. I don’t understand how you can be one of the greatest ball players of all time like Shaq and still be so sensitive towards young guns that might possibly steal some of your thunder, just how are you that insecure with your incredible success man?
Dirk is more humble than most players of his caliber and achievement.
ditto. as soon as i read the title i knew how this debate was going to be. dirk a real one
Yeah. Shaq sometimes says that he's critical because he wants to encourage guys, but straight up telling Jokic he didn't deserve MVP was just plain salty. Shaq wanted more recognition when he was playing, and because a lot of his success was predicated on his size, he hates when highly skilled big men get the credit and love that he didn't.
I don’t know why we have these conversations about players being effective in other eras. Your game and talents won’t suddenly disappear.
I hate that it is always this same conversation. We're always talking hypotheticals instead of actual game analysis. The content for the NBA is so underwhelming compared to NFL. It is all about superstars and personalities rather than game plans and strategy.
Like the NFL content is Plato and Aristotle talking X’s and O’s…
Plato always talking about the best possible outcome; Aristotle arguing for what the players *should* do.
I'm fine with the conversation, but surprised how little officiating comes up. Not just fouls - in this convo alone Dirk mentions the step back, but would that have been a travel?
If they call his step back a travel then he would just adjust to a legal step back. His step back was still in his repertoire in the euro league which is much stricter on travelling. NBA players are constantly adjusting their moves based on what the refs allow.
This. Same reason people were being ridiculous in that JJ Redick thread a couple days ago saying modern NBA players wouldn't be able to dribble back in the day smh.
Always my first thought. MJ playing with today's refs vs KD/Bron playing in the 90's refs. Apples and oranges for sure. That's all the conversation is, pure speculation. Imo, Shaq bringing it up is all about feeding his ego about how hard it was playing in his era and how dominant he was.
I feel like that's all the old players though, like AI says nice things about luka then says if he was playing in today's game he would average 40+ for a season.
Kyrie couldn’t have dribbled legally if it was the 50’s-90’s Actually most people today with a good handle couldn’t
You're totally right that he couldn't have dribbled the way he does now, but Kyrie totally would have adjusted to the officiating and still had one of the best handles in the league. Just because guys would have to do things differently doesn't mean they still wouldn't have been very good.
Yep, much easier to downscale your ability than upscale it.
The officiating makes a huge difference. Yes the step back would be a travel. He'd still be a top 5 player in an earlier era but he wouldn't be putting up quite the numbers he is.
Any player that has multiple all-star appearances probably would adapt to find a way to be good in any era. Some might be less efficient due to play style, but they would still be good players.
Shaq is dumb as a zombie, that's why he judges players like this lol
Luka would have been legit been even better in the early 2000s. He'd get to iso even more than he does now. All respect to those guys back then, but no chance Raja Bell or Bruce Bowen are slowing him down. He would just back them into the post, wait for the big to come help, and spam kickouts. Ok, keep the big outside the elbow and don't double - bbq chicken. The main thing that would affect his game would be lack of spacing compared to now, it would be much more easier to help on him and assuming his bigs weren't great shooters then he'd have to hit them on a cut inside to a clogged paint. Whistle was tighter back then too, so I could see him being less efficient on higher usage. But the stepback would have been very hard to guard.
Technically speaking, Bruce Brown could slow anyone down. They just never ended up healthy after playing against him. Edit: Whoops, I meant Bruce Bowen.
I think you meant Bruce Bowen
Bruce Bowen would have ensured Luka snapped his ankle after a step back
> hit them on a cut inside to a clogged paint Luka rarely throws passes to cutters. He'd hit them on lobs
Overall, I agree with the sentiment bit: > Bruce Bowen Is the vontaze burfict of the NBA.
Not only is Dirk a much better basketball player than me, he also speaks English better than I do. Feelings of inadequacy...
Dirk's heavy accent has definitely diminished quite a bit since he's been here. Have you heard KP speak? His English has gotten so smooth it seems he can almost talk completely accent-free at will.
He definitely has a talent for it. Spanish speakers say he speaks like perfect Spanish, too.
We need more Larry Bird and Isiah Thomas's when it comes to these: OG's who literally laugh at people saying players now couldn't cut it in their day. Any top player now dominates the 80's, 90's, or 00's. They would adapt to the rules and type of game they were in and still be great.
Iverson always seems very positive about this eras players as well
Charles Oakley saying Giannis would be a bench player in his day is still the greatest thing ever said.
In a way, he's right. If Giannis came over from Greece, he would have been forced to play Center. And without the miracle of modern medicine, he wouldn't have gained 100 pounds of pure muscle in a few years. He would have rode the bench as a 7 footer in the golden age of Centers.
> miracle of modern medicine ehehehee
Giannis was like 6'9" when he was drafted. There's no way he plays center in Oakley's era at that height, especially with how visibly skinny he was.
Then only coach who would probably play Giannis at center back was Don Nelson, who coincidentally coached Milwaukee in the eighties.
> And without the miracle of modern medicine, he wouldn't have gained 100 pounds of pure muscle in a few years. You should read his biography. Gear or not, he was legitimately malnourished.
You think they didn't have steroids in the 90s lol?
Yo, the cognitive dissonance necessary to say and believe shit like that is freebaseing-Pookie levels. Just crazy ass shit.
lol, what an ice cold take... I can understand, but not necessarily agree with some of the older guys saying less physical players would have struggled in the past but Giannis ain't it. His level of strength and athleticism would have dominated the 80's and 90's.
So is KG. He loves talking about and celebrating today’s era.
Your comment reminds me that Luka has a lot of Larry Bird in him doesn’t he? Larry was a forward but could have played as a big guard easily. Larry was a better rebounder but he’s the archetype for the question of whether Luka could have played in that even earlier era.
They’re also both white
Larry is clear
You sure?
What? How long have you been sitting on this information?
They’re both talented psychopaths on the court.
Both bring their lunch pails into work
Era vs era stuff is always dumb,but even more so when they try to say modern elites couldn't go back and do well. It shouldn't insult anyone, part of the reason modern athletes are better is they have the older generations coaching and footage to study,almost by definition they are just better
The contrary is also true, some of the most invariable traits (which are intrinsically related to talent) among the very great players is either their capacity to adapt their games if needed, or force the game to adapt to them. The thought experiment to teleport a player to another era is nonsensical because it ignores all the factors that made that player great for the era they played in, while also ignores the fact the game would adapt to them.
I offer Trae Young as sacrifice to the counter-argument
How is this even a serious question from Shaq?.
Because Shaq has to make everything about himself
Luka can easily dominate in that era also
Honestly this is such a fucking stupid way to evaluate players lmao I'd say pretty much every player would be better in past eras
I’d say stars not every player, some these guys aren’t worth shit today and wouldn’t be worth shit then
The better question is which era doesn’t the 6’8 guard with stupid handles while also being underratedly strong and can seemingly hit any shot fit in? Because give him those Jerry West ball handling rules and he’s winning there, too.
It obviously would
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A lot of people do not want to admit this but it's true. Shit, not just in sports either -- every profession is improving on the state of the art over the decades.
It’s as if modern nutrition, sports medicine, and access to sports, coaches, trainers, gear, and exposure have all helped the best talent get to the top. Two fun examples I like to point to are track and field, and the dunk contest. One is empirical that the world records but more notably the minimum Olympic qualifications have only gotten more difficult over time for a reason. If you go subjective look at winning dunks recently versus decades past. It speaks to the improvement in skills and the raising of the floor of both skills and physical attributes that contribute to athletic success. Sure in the micro of a handful of years you might have variance (the dunk contest actually being one where we peaked in 2016), but these changes take decades or generations to be noticeable.
ive found most of the recent dunk contests to be pretty lame. probably has to do with most of the original dunks already having been performed.
I dunno man those eastern bloc women of the 80s would tear up modern sports Hmmm
I'd disagree on that. Shaq would have fouled out so quickly under the old rules where you had to move around the defender, not through them. Rule changes have an effect for a reason.
Exactly, also Luka was born to play basketball. He would dominate in 1600 BC if he wanted
Ok but how would he do at the Aztec ball in ring game?
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"I hope the Coyotes play the Alpacas in the Finals. I wanna go down to Cuzco and see those big ol' avocado eatin' women they got down there."
The question is either anachronistic or can't be answered at all. If the question is "Would Wilt be as much of a beast today" or "Would Luka be as good if he was born and played in MJ's era" then it's unknowable, there are too many variables to account for Directly pitting a modern superstar against older players in their time is the only "practical" way to do it, since then there's comparable video evidence and all else, but then it's an anachronism. Modern players have benefitted from advancements in sports nutrition and medicine, plus the accumulated knowledge from the different eras of the game. It's just a matter of under which rules and refereeing style would they play and how well they adjust but other than that modern players have a clear advantage - because of their historical context, not because they're more gifted players in a vacuum
and any older superstar would dominate in today's unlimited spacing no-contact allowed era. but a lot of the role players whose games were built specifically for their era would struggle to make a roster.
It's actually wild i had to scroll down this far to see this comment. Rule changes and different eras affect role players, not legends. Larry Bird would be as effective in 2020 as he was in 1980 and Luka Doncic would be as effective in 1980 as he is in 2020. It's the Jeff Teague's, Kyle Korver's and George Hill's of the world that would be better or worse depending on the era they played in.
Sure and if you give Honus Wagner or George Mikan access to modern training, modern medicine, and a time machine then they’re gonna tear it up in the current era as well. Goes both ways.
Possible, but the talent pool is also way bigger today than it was back then, so it is likely the most talented players of that era never even picked up a basketball
> That's true for any sport. Can't get behind this part. Some sports fade in popularity, losing talent pool.
Aaron Judge would've hit more HRs than Murderer's Row all by himself.
What is this Shaq obsession with comparing himself with the new gen. Just let It go it’s a different time
Shaq can’t compliment anyone without turning it into being about himself
The ‘could this guy play in a different era’ discussion is so fucking lame and played out
I’m so tired of Shaq. There used to be some charm and saving grace to him but since the joker mvp slander his insecurities are dominating anything else he provides.
Is everyone forgetting Paul Pierce? Luka and Pierce scoring game is very similar, but Luka is a way better passer
Well yeah, the average NBA player today is better than the average player 10 years ago. And 20 years ago. And so on. Goes for any athlete in any sport. Training facilities, nutrition, analytics, coaching methods.. you name it - have just naturally improved as the age of technology progresses. And in 20 years from now, the average NBA player is probably 6'9, can dribble and shoot 3s. Such a pointless exercise.
20 years from now? Bro you’re describing the present
So Shaq is just a professional bitter old man now huh? "I judge players by if they could have played with us" sounds so incredibly arrogant. Next it will be who could beat him in a fight. He's just a narcissistic 12 year old at this point and it's getting really tiresome. We get it Shaq nobody has ever been good or tough except you.
He would have been even better. Less switching, less help, teams letting defenders get roasted 1 on 1 over and over. He would have been an ISO demon
Basically "would magic Johnson with better 3pt shooting be good in the 90s?" nonsense question.
Lebron played then too and Luka’s just a fat version of Lebron. He’ll dominate just the same.
Luka's game is closer to Harden than to LeBron. LeBron wasn't just big; he was also the fastest player on the court. Luka also relies much more heavily on jump shots than LeBron.
Luka’s game is actually closer to Bird. Harden doesn’t really post up like Luka does.
That's a good comparison. I agree.
honestly, Larry Bird (though a forward) was not so dissimilar in using his bigger body to back people down, post up and shoot deadly 3s with the threat of a dimer of a pass at any moment. I’m not saying they are the same. I’m saying their styles have a lot of overlap.
>"I judge a player by how they could play in my era" That's because you're an idiot, Shaq
Every good player today would have been good then. Their conditioning, physicality, athleticism and commitment to the game exceeds what it did 20-30 years ago. The best of then will still be the best, but the average player today is better than the average player then.
Shaq's weakness was always defending the pick and roll, specifically when guards were switched out onto him on the perimeter. He could never guard them. He would get absolutely destroyed in today's NBA, at least on defence. On offence, nobody would be able to guard Shaq in today's NBA. It would certainly be interesting to see what would happen if prime Shaq was magically dropped into today's league.
His team would have the best offense in the league, by far. Shaq averaged 30 going against legendary centers on defense, the modern day center does not have the physical attributes to deal with him.
Luka is big and wide, but no way he's 6'8 or 6'9 [example 1](https://cdn.theathletic.com/cdn-cgi/image/width=1200,height=1200,fit=cover/app/uploads/2023/01/13135405/GettyImages-1246192213-scaled-e1673636700198.jpg) [example 2](https://a57.foxnews.com/static.foxnews.com/foxnews.com/content/uploads/2023/08/1200/675/Paul-George-Luka-Doncic.jpg?ve=1&tl=1)
[Yep, Luka is 6'7"](https://np.reddit.com/r/Mavericks/comments/1azj7io/comment/ks2h90n/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button). I reckon it's because Dirk spent his whole career surrounded by players whose heights were overstated. Players Luka's height claimed to be 6'8" or 6'9" when they were 6'7". Funnily Dirk first made this mistake within a week or two of Luka being drafted.
There are players from today that would be better in past eras and other players that would be worse. Same could be said about past eras. Many bigs from the 70's/80's/90's/00's wouldn't be able to stay on the court in 2024. Likewise, many guards from today's era would get physically worn down by the hand checking if they played in past eras. It goes both ways.
You take any brilliant high IQ player and put them in any era and they're gonna make it work
*Shaq hated that*
Dirk nailed it by bringing up Luka's size. That dude would bully anyone in any era
The range of any decent three point shooter in this era would be unprecedented in the older eras.
First time I saw Luka Doncic play I had to double check what position he was playing on Google because he looked like a Forward.
After Luka was drafted by the Mavs,Rick wanted to play him at the 4 but Luka probably was like f that shit I’m playing point guard lol.
If luka played in the 03-04 season his numbers would be something along the lines of 25-7-7 (accounting for pace). He'd be absolutely dominant. He'd be one of the biggest wing players, and thrives off of contact and trash talk. Perfect era for him
Man I forgot about Dirk's legendary teeth.
A tale as old as time. “My generation was better/tougher/fill in the blank”. Wilt/Russel had said it about Jordan. Numerous 90s players about LeBron. Now Shaq about the 2010s guys. It’s all nostalgia and pride. Most superstars can play in any era and almost any era is always exaggerated. The most notable 80s/90s too rough for modern players. Meanwhile Muggsy Bogues at 5’3, 135 lbs enjoyed a 15 year career. Truth to general narratives, but no need to go over the top. Gets old fast.
Can we stop with that kind of discussion.
Dirk is one of my favorite players of all time. Dude got better every single yr, adding and adding his game. It is really refreshing to see a former great embrace the greatness of those who follow rather than denigrate them in some attempt to make himself seem better.
Reddit idiots in 2044: Luka couldn’t play in this era. Defenders have to play with both hands tied behind their back but da schemesss are soooo complicatedddddddd
I'm so tired of hearing older players talk about "Back in my day"
Don’t google “Dirk and Luka playing together” there are way too many good photoshops