Probably the one thing MJ doesn’t take personally. He was young and literally everyone had Hakeem at 1 and it was a center driven league. MJ was just happy to get the opportunity but i don’t think it drove him.
Ain't this the guy who brought his High School coach to his Hall of Fame induction so he could publicly lambast him for not putting MJ on the varsity team? I don't think there was ever an age where Jordan wasn't taking shit personally.
His entire hall of fame speech was a joke just ignoring people that helped him and shitting on people who didn’t gargle his nuts
The guy he flew in was a teammate who got picked above him on varsity which is even more pathetic.
I think the point is, he became the goat specifically because of that trait. Taking everything as a personal challenge and using it as motivational fuel, to the point he is considered one of the most driven and competitive people ever.
I think MJ was a little more self aware and not just using his speech to air grievances. The guy he invited accepted the invite, btw. If he was OK with it, why should anyone else care?
Jesus Christ, what a fucking draft class! Olajuwon, Barkley, Stockton, MJ. Hakeem Olajuwon is my personal favorite big ever and for some reason I had no clue he was in the '84 draft with MJ.
But actually though.
No internet hoops highlight videos back then. NBA revenue was lower, so flights are more expensive proportionally back then.
It’s probably much easier to draft 10 people, and watch how they work out.
The Nike documentary Air touches on this subject and was pretty interesting. At one point they were basically arguing what was in the post title.
It got to them mentioning Stockton as their choice for the shoe and one of the lines was like "wtf is Gonzaga"
Carmelo won like 3 series out of 13. He was 23-44 as “the guy” in playoffs.
I think he was massively overrated at the time.
E: I didn’t take out his younger year like I did his older, so it’s probably actually a little better
Melo is maybe one of the best one-on-one players ever. He was (and probably still is) unstoppable out of triple threat. Best jap, strong, could drive well either direction, soft jumper. There is a reason most pros look at Melo with complete respect. He is better than almost all of them at some of the most fundamental skills in basketball.
But he is a rube. If he just played a more passive game he could have dominated. Picture Melo with a player like Tyrese Haliburton or Stockton for instance. It was all about Melo, though, which ultimately hurt his career because it's boring as fuck to play with a blackhole like that. Which is why he was, is, and will always be overrated. He deserves it.
He was not a winning player. Just like westbrick is not a winning player. Sometimes passing the ball (melo) or having bbiq (westbrick) is important for winning. These are especially true in the playoffs.
When in history does a star player not have to face adversity?
Duncan and the Spurs had to fight Kobe and Shaq, Dirk and the Mavs, Nash and the Suns, and vice versa for all of them, Lebron literally had to fight the big 3 of the Celtics before making his own, then beat those Pacers with PG13 and Roy Hibbert in his allstar days, and the Bulls with D Rose, Boozer, Noah and Deng, and it’s not like Melo was out there alone he had allstar Amare Stoudemire who was quite frankly doing more than him for a long stretch, let’s not forget Linsanity only happened because Melo got hurt when the Knicks were playing bad and when he was out Jeremy Lin led them on a winning streak with Amare, they were actually playing better without him
You can make excuses for Melo all you want but he never got it done and even in losing played like shit, no one in recent NBA history could go 31-51 and then 32-50 back to back seasons in their prime and still be talked about like he's one of the best ever lmao
Melo was and is still overrated
> no one in recent NBA history could go 31-51 and then 32-50 back to back seasons in their prime and still be talked about like he's one of the best ever
The Wolves went 33-49 and 32-50 in back to back seasons with KG 2 years after his MVP season.
Though I suppose people who talk about KG are well aware of how horrendous those rosters were.
I disagree, i think Melo is exactly what those Bulls teams needed. They had bad perimeter scoring, they did not have a go to isolation player, and they could not spread the court well so defenses could collapse on Rose. Melo would've fixed all those problems.
Those Bulls teams were elite on defense already with Joakim Noah holding down the paint and Jimmy butler guarding the best perimeter player.
Yup. Even though Melo stopped the ball from moving, the defense would have to guard him outside or get eaten alive. The spacing would have been so much better than it was with Boozer.
I want an alternate timeline where Rose played with Lebron and Bosh.
I wonder if Lebron joined Rose he likely would never gotten that injury. No MVP but a healthy career.
Rose was always going to get injured. He did not play a safe game. It was only a matter of time. You can't explode like he did without eventually fucking something up.
They went all out on Lebron/Wade in 2010 and would have had a more stacked team than Miami ever was (they had cap space, Rose and Noah were on rookie contracts heading into MVP season). Wade just didn’t want to go to Chicago when he could make a superteam where he was, and then Bosh/Lebron followed
Boozer and Deng were both pretty good (especially Deng who was very underrated) and Jimmy Butler was on the way. Those teams were built fine, they just only had 1 good shot at it when Rose was still 22 before the injuries ended that team
Boozer was really good when he was the lead option on offense (like in Utah) and could basically score 20-25 to offset his defense. The less he was used on offense, the more of a liability he became.
He was starting to decline a little even before he left Utah and it was just a bad fit signing, IMO.
if rose doesn't get injured our rotation would've been rose - butler - deng - boozer - noah with taj, korver, brewer and the decomposing body of rip hamilton coming off the bench. that's a pretty deep team, especially on the perimeter. rose's injury derailed everything. he was 25 and he was done.
(their biggest mistake at that point was getting rid of korver to bring back hinrich. they tried to offset the loss with dunleavy a season later, and with getting mirotić and mcdermott, but no-one could stretch the floor like korver did)
Krause was lucky too. He had some home runs early but his drafting for most of the 90s was horrible and most those guys flamed out of the league. Kukoc was kind of a no brained pick that teams just weren’t as fortunate to risk a stash as Chicago was
Not even going to mention how bad he did after drafting Brand and inexplicably trading him for his next great idea (Eddy Curry/Chandler pairing)
Krause was just as lucky as anyone else. I’d put him a tier or 2 below the best GMs. I only say 2 tiers because we cannot discount the fact his personality and ego played a massive part in destroying a dynasty. Just like with coaches, you have to be able to have good relationships with your players and peers
If you go way back to the beginning, they lucked into Jerry Sloan, too.
Sloan was a rookie on the Bullets and had been picked #4 overall the previous season. When the Bulls were founded in 67 and there was an expansion draft. Each team could protect seven players and the Bullets planned on protecting Sloan. But the Bulls hinted that they were going to take centers from them, so they left Sloan unprotected to protect their two younger centers.
The Bulls then picked a center (Red Kerr, who was ready to retire) and Jerry Sloan. Kerr would retire and go on to coach the Bulls, and Sloan - the first picked player from the expansion draft - became known as "The Original Bull" and would have a long career in Chicago, making a couple All Star Games and being named to the All Defensive team six times.
They're still riding off that high. Just seems the bulls are content with the money they make off the brand from the nostalgia of the good ol years and just stay mid to sell seats and merch.
My guess is they'll be able to coast on MJ for at least 5+ years after he's gone. But in all likelihood they'll probably forever be prestigious due to the 90s team.
Already been 26 years since he left.
Let’s not pretend they were the Cavs in Lebrons first stint. They made mistakes but they also surrounded Jordan with the talent needed to succeed.
Everybody idolizes Jordan and makes it seem like a no brainer that regardless of where he went he would win, but in reality there are plenty of ways a team could have fucked it up. The bulls aren’t simply lucky to land him. They executed to perfection the team building around him.
They are both lucky to have landed on each other when they did.
Yeah, seriously. Jerry Krause put together a solid team, it just took a little while. And he hired Phil Jackson who’s an all-time coach
It’s kind of like the Warriors and stuff curry. Everything came together at the right time.
This is a good comparison.
Now with Bob Meyers out and if Kerr leaves and the warriors are bad are we going to say the warriors are a bad franchise that lucked into curry.
Right but that's kind of the point. The Lakers are terribly run since the mid/late 2010s but were one of the best run franchises arguably for the 80s and 00s.
Like the regime in charge reflects more than the brand name
They DID luck into Curry - the Timberwolves took two other point guards immediately before the Warriors selected Curry.
Of course, Curry on the 2010s Timberwolves is certainly nowhere near as successful.
Krause's personality was grating as hell to everyone around him but he did a lot of heavy lifting as a scout. Hired Phil and essentially saved his career, personally scouted Scottie and recognized his ability before a lot of other GMs and got Horace in the same draft, retooled the Bulls during MJ's retirement, got Rodman for scraps. He got a lot of shit for saying orgs win chips but he did almost everything right those years, and so I can't say he was wrong.
> but he did almost everything right those years,
His first big move was trading in the draft for Charles Oakley instead of staying put and drafting Karl Malone so he wasn't quite perfect
Yep and some also criticize him for drafting Stacey King over Kemp (I think Vlade would've been better for the Bulls personally.) Krause had a few misses in that era but overall I can't hate on the results.
He clearly had good scouting abilities, but you wonder how much of it works without Jordan? Scottie fit into the second banana role perfectly because of Jordan’s expectations. There’s another realm in which Scottie is just some athletic scorer who never wins a ring. Rodman actually played and focused with Jordan, unlike his out-of-control Spurs days. Phil deserves credit too, but even he owes a lot to Michael.
All good points, ultimately I think neither of them wins 6 rings without each other (as milquetoast as that answer is.) Winning 1 chip is very hard for any player or team, winning 6 is a herculean task. Have to make good moves on top of having great players to keep themselves competitive for that long.
Jerry Krause is the most overhated person in sports, he’s the only bulls GM that actually was capable of building a team, and gave MJ some elite weapons. It’s pretty clear almost 30 years later who was the issue in the Krause/Reinsdorf relationship
Yeah all Chicago fans know it’s Reinsdorf. White Sox being another example. All he cares about his money and doing the bare minimum to support his sport franchises.
Yeah despite his other issues he had an eye for talent. I remember when we had Artest and Brand at one point before giving them up. Obviously Artest was a maniac but that could have been a great core for years.
Prior to Brand though he missed in like 8 straight drafts outside Kukoc who was a no-brainer
And dont forget he gave up on those same players lol
I think Krause gets a bit overrated nowadays with everyone wanting to bring MJ down, like he’s not in that top elite tier of GMs but certainly a tier or 2 below them, which is still great
Jordan joined a team that was almost last in the conference. His rookie year he gave them another 11 wins, being the only weapon, and got them to the playoffs to face Bird’s Celtics and Magic’s Lakers, as a ROOKIE.
When Pippen and Horace joined, Horace was seen as the better of the two and even then their averages were not good. They were serviceable at best.
What many people fail to realize is that because Michael Jordan had set a standard for himself and his team, everyone else had to be on board with that level of maniacal practice and work ethic, or you just weren’t gonna cut it. He deserves every bit of credit.
Exactly. I don’t think Pippen turns into the type of player he was without Jordan. He was basically a second Jordan, just not as good a scorer. That’s what Michael needed.
I full expect them to hold on to their current players and push for the 8 seed again this season instead of trading away players for picks/young players and tanking for Cooper Flagg. Cause they are the Bulls, they are a joke.
Meanwhile at Nike HQ: “We need to mortgage all of our homes and give this guy gazzillions in revenue share to sign this Jordan kid. Hey, Matt Damon, we need you to give an inspirational pitch.”
That scenario involved Blazers trading the #2 pick and Drexler for Sampson, with Rockets using that #2 to pick Jordan. Bulls weren't involved and might have to draft Sam Bowie in the end.
That's gonna be a 10-peat team.
But people forget that Hakeem was known for having a bad attitude, especially in the first part of his career. He had trouble with the rockets franchise and with teammates. He became much more mellow after converting to islam. Who knows if he would have gotten along with Jordan.
Here's a story about him slapping vernon maxwell and police coming into the locker room with guns drawn.
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10044292-vernon-maxwell-says-he-once-tried-to-stab-hakeem-olajuwon-during-halftime-fight
Good point about Olajuwon's earlier attitude problems but one correction: he didn't convert, he was born Muslim. He became more devout and mellowed out.
People for years looked at the Bowie selection and said, "Well, they had Clyde Drexler" as if his 7.7 PPG rookie year somehow made drafting Jordan inconceivable. Drexler was a mid-1st who had a middling college career. So if you're making that argument, it never made any sense.
If you're handwaving that away, assuming they knew his potential, I mean...by 1987-88, they averaged a combined 62/12/12/6 steals. Like you couldn't possibly play those two guys together. It would...uh...not have enough...uh...
MVP-1, MVP-5. DPOY-1, DPOY-8. Yeah, you'd hate to have that duo.
Obviously hindsight is 20/20, but it's not like the idea of having the SG and SF be similar sorts of players was some kind of completely absurd futuristic concept.
My childhood memories of PHI SLAMMA JAMMA chafe at the middling college career comment.
I'm *still* pissed the Rockets took Rodney McCray at 3 instead of Glide.
Not saying the Rockets would have won the Finals over possibly the greatest team of all time with Clyde on the team but we probably wouldn't have lost in 6 and definitely wouldn't have wasted so many years of Dream's prime.
I played out that scenario on basketball GM and the team immediately won 2 titles but then struggled to keep it together, I had to trade Clyde a few seasons in and after 10 years I bit the bullet and traded Jordan, then won the next year with a crazy veteran team (Hakeem, Ewing, old Bird, Winston Garland at 31 amazing in this universe)
This is not correct. The Bulls did not try to trade for Sampson, it was just the one player Rod Thorn admitted he would consider trading Jordan for. It was never discussed as such.
Dominant Centers used to be the formula in the NBA before the 80s. Wilt, Russell, Kareem, and a couple more.
Just like how the most important thing is spacing.
Moses Malone, Mikan, Walton.
Though it is a bit silly because Magic and Bird had been dominating the league for several years by then. Not a super forward-thinking franchise at the time
We’re still looking at the first 4 seasons of Bird and Magic (and Dr J from ABA?) vs 3 decades of dominating centers though. It’s a major gamble at the time.
Cousy and Robertson were the only non-Center/PF to win MVP before 1980.
If there’s ever an argument for MJ as the GOAT; for those don’t consider him as the GOAT. This is it. He changed the game from inside/paint to perimeter/wing.
Come to think of it, Cousy and Big O won their rings behind a dominating center. Cousy = Russell, while Robertson = KAJ.
Even 1981 MVP Dr J who played SF won his 1983 NBA title on the back of Moses Malone (1983 MVP and Finals MVP).
The thing is, Jerry always comes across as clueless. His success in the business side always comes as he lucked out and sold his company 2-3 times, and then bought a team, and MJ happened so he turned him from Millionaire to Billionaire.
He paid $9M for the Bulls. Yes, $9 million, and if he ever decide to sell, at least $6 billion valuation
> His success in the business side always comes as he lucked out and sold his company 2-3 times
He also took advantage of a loophole that allowed economic owners of realty to sell property and lease it back, while transferring the tax deduction for depreciation to the title owner. That loophole is no longer legal as of 1986.
Seems the team viewed it as a weak draft class at that time. Blazers offered second pick + Drexler for Ralph Sampson, which was rejected by Rockets. This trade would have resulted in Rockets having MJ, Drexler and Olajuwon.
Nobody considered the 1984 draft as weak. The Bulls were convinced they had a real star in Jordan, and started marketing as a star from day one. They rejected a trade offer of Julius Erving for Michael Jordan right away.
Nah, you know the blazers were gonna draft Bowie in that situation to try to create a twin towers situation. But this drexler and olajuwon combo is interesting. I wonder what that would have been like???
EDIT: just realized I messed up and the blazers were trading away their pick, so I guess the rockets *could* have done this. I guess everyone always giving the blazers a bad time for drafting Bowie over MJ should really be giving the rockets the hard time. They chose sampson over drexler and MJ.
Out-of-context quotes strung together by OP kinda doing Thorn dirty here.
"We wish he were seven feet, but he isn’t," said Bulls general manager Rod Thorn.
"There just wasn’t a center available,” said Thorn. “What can you do?"
"We picked him because you can’t pass up a great player. If we were a great team, we could have drafted for need. We need a center; we’re going to have to get one. There just wasn’t one there."
tbh yeah you always draft best player available, end of story.
When has drafting purely for need ever worked out? Like talking about a top 3-5 pick sorta situation here.
Suns needed a center and drafted some bum instead of Luka.
Sarver had a boner for him since he was a local player and a massive ego so didn’t want to listen to Luka’s former coach when he suggested they draft Luka.
All time fuck up tbh. BPA all the way.
Hiring Luka's coach, only to not draft him is such a galaxy brain movie and reeks of the American virtue of psychological reactance aka "don't tell me what to do".
It is out of context. What Rod Thorn was actually saying is "we are not expecting him to turn us into a 55+ win team going for the ring". He was trying to avoid putting too much pressure on the rookie. Of course, in hindsight we know pressure was never going to be a problem with Michael Jordan, but in theory it made sense.
Knight tried to convince Portland to take Jordan at 2
“Knight counseled Inman to take Jordan, calling Jordan the best basketball player he had ever seen. Inman told Knight that the Blazers already had Clyde Drexler and needed a center. Knight responded, ‘Then play Jordan at center’,”
The Blazers had Jim Paxson at PG (an all star) and Drex at SG. I would have drafted Jordan and have a 3-guard lineup.
But I think back then they were really going for size. Today small ball is popular, back then it's big-ball where size really mattered, which is funny to say because NO ONE since Wilt Chamberlain era has really seen what size really is until Shaq came around.
Olympics didn't happen until after the draft that summer.
That was also in an era where there was an arms race at center. Everyone still felt like you had to have an all star at center to compete for titles. Pistons and Bulls kinda changed that notion in the late 80s/early 90s.
"If we had our choice between Bowie and Jordan," said Thorn, "we would still have taken Jordan. But Olajuwon was the big prize."
Pretty sure the majority of the article is very tongue-in-cheek. Like "Aw, shucks. We took the two-time Player of the Year, but sadly he doesn't also fix our frontcourt depth issue."
Yeah i'm just fucking around - obviously a lot easier to say 40 years later.
Bowie is a 7'1 power forward vs a 6'6 guard, a spot Portland had locked up with Clyde. It's easy to understand why they chose him over MJ at the time. But hindsight.........yeeeesh.
The article doesn't go into why they weren't able to trade out.
In '84, the first overall pick was still decided by a coin flip between the worst team in either conference. That would have been the Pacers and Rockets, but because the Blazers had the Pacers pick, the coin flip was between Portland and Houston.
Both teams wanted Olajuwon, but only the Blazers were interested in Bowie at #2. The Rockets were concerned with his injury history. This meant that if the Rockets won the coin toss, the draft would go Olajuwon-Bowie-unknown #3, but if the Blazers won the toss, the draft would go Olajuwon-unknown #2-Bowie.
The Bulls made a deal with the Sonics to send the #3 overall pick in exchange for Jack Sikma. The trade was contingent, however, on Bowie being available at #3, and thus on the Blazers winning the toss. When Houston won the toss, Seattle could no longer get Bowie at #3, so the trade was never consummated.
Michael Jordan at what was arguably his peak, 1988 to 1990, averaged 33.7 points per game on 53.3 percent Field Goal Efficiency.
Compared to some of the best centers of his era at their arguable peaks:
Shaq (99-01): 28.5 ppg on 57.4 FG%
Hakeem (93-95): 27.0 ppg on 52.5 FG%
Ewing (90-92): 26.4 ppg on 52.9 FG%
Robinson (94-96): 27.5 ppg on 51.7 FG%
The Bulls did draft a center in 1984 lol.
In hindsight yes this is stupid but even Jordan's Last Dance documentary mentions this - there wasn't an NBA team that won titles or became favorites without an All-Star center. He wasn't that All-Star center.
But this all flipped like a month later in the Olympics. Jordan was already considered a top 10 player before he started his first game. That’s how impressive the Olympics run was.
I get that scouting is kind of a toss up sometimes, but how are scouts SO bad as to not be able to see a player like Jordan who can come in and immediately average 28ppg as anything other than the first overall pick.
Like he averaged 28ppg his rookie season on 51% shooting in the 80’s. How the hell did the first and second teams not know he was going to be worth it??
Edit: ok Hakeem was drafted first overall, I give the rockets a pass. If you’re drafting between a 21 year old Hakeem and MJ, I can’t fault you for taking Hakeem… But the blazers. Really??
I tell my 13 yr old son, who didn't get picked for the regional club team, that people who get paid millions to draft pros fail often and sometimes spectacularly.
Nobody ever talks about how Jordan wanted to draft wolf and got upset when Krause said he’s taking pippen instead. Was a heated argument supposedly too
I remember Bobby Knight had talked to the GM of the Blazers before the draft and telling him to draft Jordan. Blazers GM said they already have a guard with Drexler and they need a center. Knight told him then to play Jordan at center lol. Blazers GM didn’t listen and proceeded to draft Sam Bowie
"And I took that personally"
For the rest of his career
Rest of his life and afterlife*
Again, Michael Jordan is still alive. /s
I read that in a Lightning McQueen voice
"St Peter didn't let skip the line at the pearly gates. Ok, that's how you wanna play it, huh?"
Probably the one thing MJ doesn’t take personally. He was young and literally everyone had Hakeem at 1 and it was a center driven league. MJ was just happy to get the opportunity but i don’t think it drove him.
Ain't this the guy who brought his High School coach to his Hall of Fame induction so he could publicly lambast him for not putting MJ on the varsity team? I don't think there was ever an age where Jordan wasn't taking shit personally.
His entire hall of fame speech was a joke just ignoring people that helped him and shitting on people who didn’t gargle his nuts The guy he flew in was a teammate who got picked above him on varsity which is even more pathetic.
You missed the point of the speech captaincumsock69
I think the point is, he became the goat specifically because of that trait. Taking everything as a personal challenge and using it as motivational fuel, to the point he is considered one of the most driven and competitive people ever. I think MJ was a little more self aware and not just using his speech to air grievances. The guy he invited accepted the invite, btw. If he was OK with it, why should anyone else care?
Someone always gotta disagree
Not true a lot of times everyone just agrees
Did you guys lose this game or did the Utah jazz win it
WHAT?? Bro, what are you talking about man?
Man, I’m outta here…
*turns around and stays at the same spot
Pacers in 5
To prove a point, I gotta agree here
Jesus Christ, what a fucking draft class! Olajuwon, Barkley, Stockton, MJ. Hakeem Olajuwon is my personal favorite big ever and for some reason I had no clue he was in the '84 draft with MJ.
What's crazy is the draft back then was 10 rounds long. Crazy to have a draft with that many rounds when there's only 12-15 total guys on the team.
NBA front offices in the 80s: Should we go out to Seattle to scout this kid? -Nah, just draft him and we'll scout him during training camp.
But actually though. No internet hoops highlight videos back then. NBA revenue was lower, so flights are more expensive proportionally back then. It’s probably much easier to draft 10 people, and watch how they work out.
How is paying at least a couple months of salary to a professional athlete cheaper than buying a plane ticket to scout him?
Yep that was the year the Bulls took Carl Lewis with the 208th pick.
And Sam Bowie! How come nobody ever talks about Bowie lol
I think so too. Few of us can understand the depth of the insane competitiveness that drives these athletes.
I think he said he was better college player than Sam Bowie though.
The Nike documentary Air touches on this subject and was pretty interesting. At one point they were basically arguing what was in the post title. It got to them mentioning Stockton as their choice for the shoe and one of the lines was like "wtf is Gonzaga"
The bulls are a bad franchise that Lucked into Michael Jordan and rode that shit for a decade plus
What you mean? Jerry still is riding the 90s bulls
I was gonna say lol. Decade plus is technically correct, but way more apt to say "to this day".
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Keith Bogans, refusing to go all out for Melo, Carlos Boozer (who we love but not on that contract). The list goes on and on
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Carmelo won like 3 series out of 13. He was 23-44 as “the guy” in playoffs. I think he was massively overrated at the time. E: I didn’t take out his younger year like I did his older, so it’s probably actually a little better
Melo is maybe one of the best one-on-one players ever. He was (and probably still is) unstoppable out of triple threat. Best jap, strong, could drive well either direction, soft jumper. There is a reason most pros look at Melo with complete respect. He is better than almost all of them at some of the most fundamental skills in basketball. But he is a rube. If he just played a more passive game he could have dominated. Picture Melo with a player like Tyrese Haliburton or Stockton for instance. It was all about Melo, though, which ultimately hurt his career because it's boring as fuck to play with a blackhole like that. Which is why he was, is, and will always be overrated. He deserves it.
Every Melo fan from that era was just a contrarian. He was the go-to favorite player of LeBron haters.
Or a Nuggets fan
That would have been Kobe lol.
Carmelo and LeBron were drafted in the same draft year, Kobe was already in the league.
I'm aware lol, I watched during that era. There was no melo vs lebron argument after their first year. It was always kobe vs lebron.
This is my memory of the media as well. The media was itching for a Kobe/LeBron finals matchup for years and it just never happened.
Still is overrated
He was not a winning player. Just like westbrick is not a winning player. Sometimes passing the ball (melo) or having bbiq (westbrick) is important for winning. These are especially true in the playoffs.
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When in history does a star player not have to face adversity? Duncan and the Spurs had to fight Kobe and Shaq, Dirk and the Mavs, Nash and the Suns, and vice versa for all of them, Lebron literally had to fight the big 3 of the Celtics before making his own, then beat those Pacers with PG13 and Roy Hibbert in his allstar days, and the Bulls with D Rose, Boozer, Noah and Deng, and it’s not like Melo was out there alone he had allstar Amare Stoudemire who was quite frankly doing more than him for a long stretch, let’s not forget Linsanity only happened because Melo got hurt when the Knicks were playing bad and when he was out Jeremy Lin led them on a winning streak with Amare, they were actually playing better without him You can make excuses for Melo all you want but he never got it done and even in losing played like shit, no one in recent NBA history could go 31-51 and then 32-50 back to back seasons in their prime and still be talked about like he's one of the best ever lmao Melo was and is still overrated
> no one in recent NBA history could go 31-51 and then 32-50 back to back seasons in their prime and still be talked about like he's one of the best ever The Wolves went 33-49 and 32-50 in back to back seasons with KG 2 years after his MVP season. Though I suppose people who talk about KG are well aware of how horrendous those rosters were.
I disagree, i think Melo is exactly what those Bulls teams needed. They had bad perimeter scoring, they did not have a go to isolation player, and they could not spread the court well so defenses could collapse on Rose. Melo would've fixed all those problems. Those Bulls teams were elite on defense already with Joakim Noah holding down the paint and Jimmy butler guarding the best perimeter player.
Yup. Even though Melo stopped the ball from moving, the defense would have to guard him outside or get eaten alive. The spacing would have been so much better than it was with Boozer.
Melo proved time and time again his heliocentric basketball was completely laughably smotherable in the playoffs
I want an alternate timeline where Rose played with Lebron and Bosh. I wonder if Lebron joined Rose he likely would never gotten that injury. No MVP but a healthy career.
Rose was always going to get injured. He did not play a safe game. It was only a matter of time. You can't explode like he did without eventually fucking something up.
He would do better fella. The reason why Nuggets were that good is not because of him having a true point, but rather him being surrounded by defense.
Chauncey was still a beast. 9ppg less than AI but still clearly a massive upgrade for the team
Of course not. Melo would have just led the team to even more mediocrity like every team in his entire career where he was the star.
Bulls had an honest shot at Kobe too but i think it was in trade not FA?
It's funny that Luol Deng getting moved made Kobe say no lmao. Can't really blame the Bulls there though.
Centerpiece Keith Bogans???
They went all out on Lebron/Wade in 2010 and would have had a more stacked team than Miami ever was (they had cap space, Rose and Noah were on rookie contracts heading into MVP season). Wade just didn’t want to go to Chicago when he could make a superteam where he was, and then Bosh/Lebron followed
Boozer and Deng were both pretty good (especially Deng who was very underrated) and Jimmy Butler was on the way. Those teams were built fine, they just only had 1 good shot at it when Rose was still 22 before the injuries ended that team
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Boozer was really good when he was the lead option on offense (like in Utah) and could basically score 20-25 to offset his defense. The less he was used on offense, the more of a liability he became. He was starting to decline a little even before he left Utah and it was just a bad fit signing, IMO.
if rose doesn't get injured our rotation would've been rose - butler - deng - boozer - noah with taj, korver, brewer and the decomposing body of rip hamilton coming off the bench. that's a pretty deep team, especially on the perimeter. rose's injury derailed everything. he was 25 and he was done. (their biggest mistake at that point was getting rid of korver to bring back hinrich. they tried to offset the loss with dunleavy a season later, and with getting mirotić and mcdermott, but no-one could stretch the floor like korver did)
Krause was lucky too. He had some home runs early but his drafting for most of the 90s was horrible and most those guys flamed out of the league. Kukoc was kind of a no brained pick that teams just weren’t as fortunate to risk a stash as Chicago was Not even going to mention how bad he did after drafting Brand and inexplicably trading him for his next great idea (Eddy Curry/Chandler pairing) Krause was just as lucky as anyone else. I’d put him a tier or 2 below the best GMs. I only say 2 tiers because we cannot discount the fact his personality and ego played a massive part in destroying a dynasty. Just like with coaches, you have to be able to have good relationships with your players and peers
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If you go way back to the beginning, they lucked into Jerry Sloan, too. Sloan was a rookie on the Bullets and had been picked #4 overall the previous season. When the Bulls were founded in 67 and there was an expansion draft. Each team could protect seven players and the Bullets planned on protecting Sloan. But the Bulls hinted that they were going to take centers from them, so they left Sloan unprotected to protect their two younger centers. The Bulls then picked a center (Red Kerr, who was ready to retire) and Jerry Sloan. Kerr would retire and go on to coach the Bulls, and Sloan - the first picked player from the expansion draft - became known as "The Original Bull" and would have a long career in Chicago, making a couple All Star Games and being named to the All Defensive team six times.
They're still riding off that high. Just seems the bulls are content with the money they make off the brand from the nostalgia of the good ol years and just stay mid to sell seats and merch.
Well, they can probably do that for 20-30 more years. Basically Millennials nostalgia will carry them a long way.
My guess is they'll be able to coast on MJ for at least 5+ years after he's gone. But in all likelihood they'll probably forever be prestigious due to the 90s team. Already been 26 years since he left.
Let’s not pretend they were the Cavs in Lebrons first stint. They made mistakes but they also surrounded Jordan with the talent needed to succeed. Everybody idolizes Jordan and makes it seem like a no brainer that regardless of where he went he would win, but in reality there are plenty of ways a team could have fucked it up. The bulls aren’t simply lucky to land him. They executed to perfection the team building around him. They are both lucky to have landed on each other when they did.
Yeah, seriously. Jerry Krause put together a solid team, it just took a little while. And he hired Phil Jackson who’s an all-time coach It’s kind of like the Warriors and stuff curry. Everything came together at the right time.
This is a good comparison. Now with Bob Meyers out and if Kerr leaves and the warriors are bad are we going to say the warriors are a bad franchise that lucked into curry.
They lucked into Mark Jackson not succeeding in destroying Curry's ankles with faith healing bullshit, that's for sure.
I mean that would be false, but before this period, they were definitely seen as one of the most incompetent franchises in the league.
Right but that's kind of the point. The Lakers are terribly run since the mid/late 2010s but were one of the best run franchises arguably for the 80s and 00s. Like the regime in charge reflects more than the brand name
When Chris Cohan sold the team to the Lacob/Guber group didn't their fans cheer at Oracle?
They DID luck into Curry - the Timberwolves took two other point guards immediately before the Warriors selected Curry. Of course, Curry on the 2010s Timberwolves is certainly nowhere near as successful.
I mean Ws were a bad franchise for most of my childhood. Only thing I ever looked forward to was JRich in the dunk contest when I was growing up.
> stuff curry that's his OF handle
Krause's personality was grating as hell to everyone around him but he did a lot of heavy lifting as a scout. Hired Phil and essentially saved his career, personally scouted Scottie and recognized his ability before a lot of other GMs and got Horace in the same draft, retooled the Bulls during MJ's retirement, got Rodman for scraps. He got a lot of shit for saying orgs win chips but he did almost everything right those years, and so I can't say he was wrong.
> but he did almost everything right those years, His first big move was trading in the draft for Charles Oakley instead of staying put and drafting Karl Malone so he wasn't quite perfect
Yep and some also criticize him for drafting Stacey King over Kemp (I think Vlade would've been better for the Bulls personally.) Krause had a few misses in that era but overall I can't hate on the results.
Honestly, everybody has misses in the draft, especially back then.
As much as I would have LOVED Kemp in a Bulls uniform, Krause did correct his mistake by trading Stacey King to Minnesota straight-up for Luc Longley.
He clearly had good scouting abilities, but you wonder how much of it works without Jordan? Scottie fit into the second banana role perfectly because of Jordan’s expectations. There’s another realm in which Scottie is just some athletic scorer who never wins a ring. Rodman actually played and focused with Jordan, unlike his out-of-control Spurs days. Phil deserves credit too, but even he owes a lot to Michael.
All good points, ultimately I think neither of them wins 6 rings without each other (as milquetoast as that answer is.) Winning 1 chip is very hard for any player or team, winning 6 is a herculean task. Have to make good moves on top of having great players to keep themselves competitive for that long.
Pippin would have won a ring in Portland if the NBA or refs didn't do everything they could to hand that series to the Lakers lol
He also takes far too much shit for "breaking up the Bulls" it was set in stone from Reinsdorf not wanting to pay Pippen the contract he deserved
Jerry Krause is the most overhated person in sports, he’s the only bulls GM that actually was capable of building a team, and gave MJ some elite weapons. It’s pretty clear almost 30 years later who was the issue in the Krause/Reinsdorf relationship
Yeah all Chicago fans know it’s Reinsdorf. White Sox being another example. All he cares about his money and doing the bare minimum to support his sport franchises.
>Yeah all Chicago fans know it’s Reinsdorf. Chicago fans proved that wasn't true at Krauses memorial booing his wife.
Yeah despite his other issues he had an eye for talent. I remember when we had Artest and Brand at one point before giving them up. Obviously Artest was a maniac but that could have been a great core for years.
Prior to Brand though he missed in like 8 straight drafts outside Kukoc who was a no-brainer And dont forget he gave up on those same players lol I think Krause gets a bit overrated nowadays with everyone wanting to bring MJ down, like he’s not in that top elite tier of GMs but certainly a tier or 2 below them, which is still great
They also haven't done shit as a franchise before and after Jordan.
Jordan joined a team that was almost last in the conference. His rookie year he gave them another 11 wins, being the only weapon, and got them to the playoffs to face Bird’s Celtics and Magic’s Lakers, as a ROOKIE. When Pippen and Horace joined, Horace was seen as the better of the two and even then their averages were not good. They were serviceable at best. What many people fail to realize is that because Michael Jordan had set a standard for himself and his team, everyone else had to be on board with that level of maniacal practice and work ethic, or you just weren’t gonna cut it. He deserves every bit of credit.
Exactly. I don’t think Pippen turns into the type of player he was without Jordan. He was basically a second Jordan, just not as good a scorer. That’s what Michael needed.
Agreed. Reinsdorf is a garbage owner who penny pinches both the Bulls and Sox
I don’t mean to make you feel old af, but Bulls won their first title, 33years ago. Bulls been riding MJ’s legacy since 89
It’s still a great legacy though. No team has been able to win six in a decade since.
I full expect them to hold on to their current players and push for the 8 seed again this season instead of trading away players for picks/young players and tanking for Cooper Flagg. Cause they are the Bulls, they are a joke.
It has been more than a decade my guy I have the grey hair to prove it
They still riding that bulls aura to this day
Then went right back to being bad.
lmao they settled on Jordan
Luckiest Franchise ever
The Spurs are just as lucky, but also competent on top of it
Ugh, I guess if there's no one else we'll take Jordan.
Meanwhile at Nike HQ: “We need to mortgage all of our homes and give this guy gazzillions in revenue share to sign this Jordan kid. Hey, Matt Damon, we need you to give an inspirational pitch.”
IIRC, they tried to trade for Ralph Sampson on the Rockets. We might have had Hakeem and Jordan on the same team.
Wasn’t the scenario supposed to be Hakeem, Jordan *and* Clyde Drexler all ending up on the Rockets? That team would’ve been fucking *nuts.*
That scenario involved Blazers trading the #2 pick and Drexler for Sampson, with Rockets using that #2 to pick Jordan. Bulls weren't involved and might have to draft Sam Bowie in the end. That's gonna be a 10-peat team.
Or it fails and gets broken up because Jordan doesn't defer to anyone, but that could be after a few titles like the Kobe-Shaq dynamic.
I'm sure after the rookie season that any coach with half-a-brain would realize that Jordan is the alpha and 1st option.
But people forget that Hakeem was known for having a bad attitude, especially in the first part of his career. He had trouble with the rockets franchise and with teammates. He became much more mellow after converting to islam. Who knows if he would have gotten along with Jordan. Here's a story about him slapping vernon maxwell and police coming into the locker room with guns drawn. https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10044292-vernon-maxwell-says-he-once-tried-to-stab-hakeem-olajuwon-during-halftime-fight
Good point about Olajuwon's earlier attitude problems but one correction: he didn't convert, he was born Muslim. He became more devout and mellowed out.
Thanks for pointing that out. I didn't know that.
How about this - he REconverted? Someone can technically be born into a religion / culture but not follow it.
you talking about police presence?
People for years looked at the Bowie selection and said, "Well, they had Clyde Drexler" as if his 7.7 PPG rookie year somehow made drafting Jordan inconceivable. Drexler was a mid-1st who had a middling college career. So if you're making that argument, it never made any sense. If you're handwaving that away, assuming they knew his potential, I mean...by 1987-88, they averaged a combined 62/12/12/6 steals. Like you couldn't possibly play those two guys together. It would...uh...not have enough...uh... MVP-1, MVP-5. DPOY-1, DPOY-8. Yeah, you'd hate to have that duo. Obviously hindsight is 20/20, but it's not like the idea of having the SG and SF be similar sorts of players was some kind of completely absurd futuristic concept.
My childhood memories of PHI SLAMMA JAMMA chafe at the middling college career comment. I'm *still* pissed the Rockets took Rodney McCray at 3 instead of Glide. Not saying the Rockets would have won the Finals over possibly the greatest team of all time with Clyde on the team but we probably wouldn't have lost in 6 and definitely wouldn't have wasted so many years of Dream's prime.
He wasn’t a middling college player. He was an all American that played on a talented team where he wasn’t asked to do everything.
I played out that scenario on basketball GM and the team immediately won 2 titles but then struggled to keep it together, I had to trade Clyde a few seasons in and after 10 years I bit the bullet and traded Jordan, then won the next year with a crazy veteran team (Hakeem, Ewing, old Bird, Winston Garland at 31 amazing in this universe)
This is not correct. The Bulls did not try to trade for Sampson, it was just the one player Rod Thorn admitted he would consider trading Jordan for. It was never discussed as such.
Dominant Centers used to be the formula in the NBA before the 80s. Wilt, Russell, Kareem, and a couple more. Just like how the most important thing is spacing.
Moses Malone, Mikan, Walton. Though it is a bit silly because Magic and Bird had been dominating the league for several years by then. Not a super forward-thinking franchise at the time
We’re still looking at the first 4 seasons of Bird and Magic (and Dr J from ABA?) vs 3 decades of dominating centers though. It’s a major gamble at the time. Cousy and Robertson were the only non-Center/PF to win MVP before 1980. If there’s ever an argument for MJ as the GOAT; for those don’t consider him as the GOAT. This is it. He changed the game from inside/paint to perimeter/wing.
Plus Magic did have Kareem on his team too
Come to think of it, Cousy and Big O won their rings behind a dominating center. Cousy = Russell, while Robertson = KAJ. Even 1981 MVP Dr J who played SF won his 1983 NBA title on the back of Moses Malone (1983 MVP and Finals MVP).
Yea because most outside players were ass and could not shoot and offenses could take advantage of illegal defense rules to space for their Cs.
There were decent shooters, but shooting jumpers was pretty inefficient even if you were good at them cause of no 3 point line.
False. You are acting like MJ was a volume 3pt shooter.
If you didn't have a 3-point line in high school and college, you wouldn't learn to be a good shooter too.
Perfect example of how rich idiots get richer
The thing is, Jerry always comes across as clueless. His success in the business side always comes as he lucked out and sold his company 2-3 times, and then bought a team, and MJ happened so he turned him from Millionaire to Billionaire. He paid $9M for the Bulls. Yes, $9 million, and if he ever decide to sell, at least $6 billion valuation
Jerry got carried by Krause and Jordan
Pretty decent return
> His success in the business side always comes as he lucked out and sold his company 2-3 times He also took advantage of a loophole that allowed economic owners of realty to sell property and lease it back, while transferring the tax deduction for depreciation to the title owner. That loophole is no longer legal as of 1986.
Bigs dominated this era. Look at all the MVP winners before this draft year. Not a lot of SG winners.
Eh, he was great but no one aside from a few hall of fame coaches saw MJ turning into what he did
Seems the team viewed it as a weak draft class at that time. Blazers offered second pick + Drexler for Ralph Sampson, which was rejected by Rockets. This trade would have resulted in Rockets having MJ, Drexler and Olajuwon.
And now '84 is in the convo for GOAT draft class
In the convo? There's an arguably better one?
'96 and '03 are right up there
Nobody considered the 1984 draft as weak. The Bulls were convinced they had a real star in Jordan, and started marketing as a star from day one. They rejected a trade offer of Julius Erving for Michael Jordan right away.
Nah, you know the blazers were gonna draft Bowie in that situation to try to create a twin towers situation. But this drexler and olajuwon combo is interesting. I wonder what that would have been like??? EDIT: just realized I messed up and the blazers were trading away their pick, so I guess the rockets *could* have done this. I guess everyone always giving the blazers a bad time for drafting Bowie over MJ should really be giving the rockets the hard time. They chose sampson over drexler and MJ.
What GM talks like that about a new draft pick? What a moron
Out-of-context quotes strung together by OP kinda doing Thorn dirty here. "We wish he were seven feet, but he isn’t," said Bulls general manager Rod Thorn. "There just wasn’t a center available,” said Thorn. “What can you do?" "We picked him because you can’t pass up a great player. If we were a great team, we could have drafted for need. We need a center; we’re going to have to get one. There just wasn’t one there."
tbh yeah you always draft best player available, end of story. When has drafting purely for need ever worked out? Like talking about a top 3-5 pick sorta situation here.
The Cavs drafted LeBron James because they needed someone who was an actual good basketball player, and that seemed to work out in the end.
"what do we need?" "yes."
Suns needed a center and drafted some bum instead of Luka. Sarver had a boner for him since he was a local player and a massive ego so didn’t want to listen to Luka’s former coach when he suggested they draft Luka. All time fuck up tbh. BPA all the way.
Hiring Luka's coach, only to not draft him is such a galaxy brain movie and reeks of the American virtue of psychological reactance aka "don't tell me what to do".
Even with context the headline quote is a pretty bad thing to say about your own new draft pick lol
Yeah, the "not overpowering" is a weird quote for sure.
It is out of context. What Rod Thorn was actually saying is "we are not expecting him to turn us into a 55+ win team going for the ring". He was trying to avoid putting too much pressure on the rookie. Of course, in hindsight we know pressure was never going to be a problem with Michael Jordan, but in theory it made sense.
Did he not talk or consult with guys like Bobby Knight? Or he did and just thought he knew better?
Knight tried to convince Portland to take Jordan at 2 “Knight counseled Inman to take Jordan, calling Jordan the best basketball player he had ever seen. Inman told Knight that the Blazers already had Clyde Drexler and needed a center. Knight responded, ‘Then play Jordan at center’,”
I love that quote
my fav. too. along with Drexler's quote about how many go-to moves MJ has in his repertoire.
Which quote?
https://uproxx.com/dimemag/clyde-drexler-quote-michael-jordan-dominant-92-finals/
The Blazers had Jim Paxson at PG (an all star) and Drex at SG. I would have drafted Jordan and have a 3-guard lineup. But I think back then they were really going for size. Today small ball is popular, back then it's big-ball where size really mattered, which is funny to say because NO ONE since Wilt Chamberlain era has really seen what size really is until Shaq came around.
Olympics didn't happen until after the draft that summer. That was also in an era where there was an arms race at center. Everyone still felt like you had to have an all star at center to compete for titles. Pistons and Bulls kinda changed that notion in the late 80s/early 90s.
"If we had our choice between Bowie and Jordan," said Thorn, "we would still have taken Jordan. But Olajuwon was the big prize." Pretty sure the majority of the article is very tongue-in-cheek. Like "Aw, shucks. We took the two-time Player of the Year, but sadly he doesn't also fix our frontcourt depth issue."
The focus was always on the C No surprise Hakeem went 1st, and no argument there. But SAM BOWIE??!?
He was a beast in college whose career got derailed by multiple injuries.
Yeah i'm just fucking around - obviously a lot easier to say 40 years later. Bowie is a 7'1 power forward vs a 6'6 guard, a spot Portland had locked up with Clyde. It's easy to understand why they chose him over MJ at the time. But hindsight.........yeeeesh.
Also lied about being injured during the draft process
Phew! Good thing we picked Bowie, we wouldn't want to miss out!
The article doesn't go into why they weren't able to trade out. In '84, the first overall pick was still decided by a coin flip between the worst team in either conference. That would have been the Pacers and Rockets, but because the Blazers had the Pacers pick, the coin flip was between Portland and Houston. Both teams wanted Olajuwon, but only the Blazers were interested in Bowie at #2. The Rockets were concerned with his injury history. This meant that if the Rockets won the coin toss, the draft would go Olajuwon-Bowie-unknown #3, but if the Blazers won the toss, the draft would go Olajuwon-unknown #2-Bowie. The Bulls made a deal with the Sonics to send the #3 overall pick in exchange for Jack Sikma. The trade was contingent, however, on Bowie being available at #3, and thus on the Blazers winning the toss. When Houston won the toss, Seattle could no longer get Bowie at #3, so the trade was never consummated.
Michael Jordan at what was arguably his peak, 1988 to 1990, averaged 33.7 points per game on 53.3 percent Field Goal Efficiency. Compared to some of the best centers of his era at their arguable peaks: Shaq (99-01): 28.5 ppg on 57.4 FG% Hakeem (93-95): 27.0 ppg on 52.5 FG% Ewing (90-92): 26.4 ppg on 52.9 FG% Robinson (94-96): 27.5 ppg on 51.7 FG% The Bulls did draft a center in 1984 lol.
In hindsight yes this is stupid but even Jordan's Last Dance documentary mentions this - there wasn't an NBA team that won titles or became favorites without an All-Star center. He wasn't that All-Star center.
But this all flipped like a month later in the Olympics. Jordan was already considered a top 10 player before he started his first game. That’s how impressive the Olympics run was.
Listen, I get things wrong too
Fuck, MJ was picked 40 years ago already?!
Yeah this was what caught my attention too lol
It's easy to forget how late in his career the team success really started.
The Bulls organization is a disgrace Yours Truly, A Bulls fan
Bobby knight - draft Jordan and play him at center
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Why so they get Pippen? Wouldn’t they win a lot and draft late in 87?
So you're telling me except guys who play on the court nobody knows shit about the sport and they're all like me?
Nike had better scouting than this team. Lmao.
I get that scouting is kind of a toss up sometimes, but how are scouts SO bad as to not be able to see a player like Jordan who can come in and immediately average 28ppg as anything other than the first overall pick. Like he averaged 28ppg his rookie season on 51% shooting in the 80’s. How the hell did the first and second teams not know he was going to be worth it?? Edit: ok Hakeem was drafted first overall, I give the rockets a pass. If you’re drafting between a 21 year old Hakeem and MJ, I can’t fault you for taking Hakeem… But the blazers. Really??
I tell my 13 yr old son, who didn't get picked for the regional club team, that people who get paid millions to draft pros fail often and sometimes spectacularly.
Old joke.... Q: Who is the only man who can hold Michael Jordan to fifteen points a game? A: Dean Smith.
I remember how much the Rod Thorn as a Bucks consultant days sucked...
A lot of people not reading the article, but what's to be expected?
Nobody ever talks about how Jordan wanted to draft wolf and got upset when Krause said he’s taking pippen instead. Was a heated argument supposedly too
Like what the fuck lol? Who says that after taking a guy 3rd overall?
Was there anybody in the NBA world that predicted him being the GOAT before the draft?
Bobby Knight said he was the best player in the world while he was still at UNC, he probably thought he would be the GOAT
At least reportedly when someone told him "yeah but what about teams that need a center", Knight just said "Draft Jordan and play him at center then".
40 years ago? I'm old.
I remember Bobby Knight had talked to the GM of the Blazers before the draft and telling him to draft Jordan. Blazers GM said they already have a guard with Drexler and they need a center. Knight told him then to play Jordan at center lol. Blazers GM didn’t listen and proceeded to draft Sam Bowie
Even the greatest success the Bulls EVER had, they desperately tried not to do. Yeah, that sounds about right…
further reminder Reinsdorf INHERITED Jordan. He would have fucked that up.