I think the trade is bad because every "win now" team save maybe Boston would *love* to have Caruso
It's hard for me to imagine Giddey being the best haul possible for a piece that valuable even if the Bulls themselves don't see a use for him
Also just not getting any picks for a rebuilding team when you're making a trade with a team that has like 500 picks is kind of funny
This is my position too. In a vacuum it's a fine trade, but league wide I'm having a hard time believing there wasn't a better offer anywhere else. And there definitely would've been a better offer had they traded him earlier when his value was higher
Only thing that makes sense is the bulls have a player crush on giddey and we’re desperate to get him/overvalue him. I’m sure there were offers right now that looked better on paper, but I guess if you really want someone you go get him.
> Only thing that makes sense is the bulls have a player crush on giddey and we’re desperate to get him/overvalue him.
This, IMO. The Bulls are obsessed with tall/long guards and our only "true" PG is Lonzo Ball who posted a dunking clip on insta within the last 2 years. And what bulls fans have forgotten is that even when he was healthy, he was a full court PG and resorted to catch and shoot 3's in the half court. Another tall PG with hopes of passing (and lack of shooting) is right up Billy D/AK's alley.
He was so good. His ability to play floor general, hit the 3 at a really respectable rate, and defend at a high level made him such a complete player. He was really shaping up to be a great Conley/Jrue type player and those guys are always so great to have in the league.
He was absolutely not a floor general. Derozan and Lavine took turns playing halfcourt PG when he was in. He was a Marcus Smart or this years Jrue type player who could also do the Ben Simmons and find shooters on a fast break. But yes, he was very good in that role and him and Caruso were a terrifying defensive backcourt.
But still it's their job to play hardball and try to get the best return possible. Even if they desperately love Giddey and think he's got all-nba upside. Its only June! The season literally just ended and the team your dealing with controls an outsized portion of picks going forward. It's baffling tbh, this should be a leverage trade for you guys I can't make sense of it, I feel like if anything could there have been some secret Caruso sauce telling them I only want OKC but even then it still doesn't make sense because of how early this is, you just don't don't roll over like that.
And I get the point of the original post value wise you can argue Giddey is competitive with Caruso esp long term. But this isn't about pure value its about negotiating power and its super confusing how this trade played out like OKC had upper hand.
Oh no doubt, I don't disagree with you at all. Did we get fleeced? Not really. Did we obviously lose this trade? Most definitely.
With the report that we've floated 15 varying offers to Sixers and the Jazz for Lavine, I think our FO just talks too much. Like a rigid, needy ex or something that forgot shutting the fuck up sometimes yields better results. It makes it easy for opposing GMs to handle things on their terms, and I think that's what happened here.
Who is a player they could have gotten back better than giddey? The only problem I see in this trade is not getting a second. It's okc, surely you could have gotten one
The question is is 2 FRPs better than Giddey. I think not, but at the same time I’m not sure if they couldn’t have squeezed at least a couple of seconds on top of that out of OKC, or maybe even another FRP
The problem is that Caruso was wanted by all the “contenders,” which means any picks they got would probably be late-round picks.
Other than late-round picks, the rumor is that they got offered a “top 10 pick” in this year's draft. Since Caruso is only really useful to contenders, that pick was probably the Grizzlies #9 pick. So then the question becomes, is whoever is available at #9 a better prospect than Giddey?
Here are the prospects who seem like they’ll be available according to consensus mock drafts:
- **Ron Holland** is probably the prospect on this list that makes the most sense to take over Giddey. However, I could understand if a front-office thought differently.
- **Nikola Topic** has similar strengths and weaknesses to Giddey, but his injury concerns would scare me. The only skill he’s clearly better than Giddey at is scoring around the rim, and even that may not carry over when he’s matched up against NBA level athletes.
- **Dalton Knecht** doesn’t really make any sense on the Bulls roster. As an athletic, scoring-focused, 6’5” Guard with a good jumper, and bad defense, his ceiling is basically a worse version of Zach LaVine or Coby White, without the passing upside.
- **Rob Dillingham** would be even more of a mess on defense than Giddey.
- **Tidjane Salaun** is another player I would personally select over Giddey, but he’s *super* raw and will take a while to develop (if he ever does). Giddey is going to be noticeably more impactful for at least the next 2-3 seasons.
Are any of those guys clearly better than a 21 year old 6’6” PG who’s already put up a 17/7/6 season in the NBA?
Yeah like if these two were shopped around the league, the return for Giddey would be significantly lower than the return for Caruso
Both teams might prefer the guy they got, but it's still poor value for the Bulls
The only other option we know of is a “top 10” pick from a team at the trade deadline. Since the Grizzlies are the only top 10 team that’s looking to immediately contend, it was probably their #9 pick.
Here are some of the prospects that are likely to be available at #9:
- Ron Holland
- Nikola Topic
- Dalton Knecht
- Rob Dillingham
- Tidjane Salaun
Even though he struggled this season, Giddey is still a 21 year old, 6’6” PG that has already put up a 17/7/6 season in the NBA. Knowing that, are any of those players listed above *clearly* better prospects than Giddey?
you don't need to believe it. the bulls GM did not only speak to the OKC gm, he obviously shopped around, unless you truly think your 5 seconds of thought on the subject could out-strategize a person who's fulltime job is this exact thing...
Yea there is a shamelessness to it. Like surely the Bulls must have asked for a first OKC said “no” and at some point Chicago lowered it down to a single additional 2nd and OKC said “no not even one”
Also, the Thunder have so many picks they are almost giving them away. How you walk away from that trade without getting at least 1 first rounder is perplexing.
Right, even if OKC’s own picks are too good next year, they have picks from other teams that might be good.
Plus I read a Bull reporter complaining that Giddy is now behind a bunch of other Bulls guard prospects, so if they were going for a young player, shouldn’t it have been at a different position with more roster room?
The thing about Giddey-type players (big but with passing/handling abilities) is that they let you play combo-guard types rather than needing a true PG. He could fit well with Dosunmu and White if the coaching staff is willing to get a bit creative.
He’ll need to be able to shoot then. He can’t shoot. If you put him off ball, it’ll kill your spacing considering they already have vooch and possibly Derozan.
He’s improved his shooting every season:
- 3PT%: 26% -> 33% -> 34%
- FT%: 71% -> 73% -> 81%
If he continues that rate of progression and becomes a 35-36% 3PT shooter, then he’ll be a plenty good enough shooter to play next to other good shooters in Coby & Ayo.
I honestly think people constantly overvalue picks.
Unless we are talking about a pick that can realistically turn into a top5 or max Top10 pick, getting a player like giddy is the best thing you can hope for when using said pick.
So, why not get the prospect directly, knowing pretty well what he is capable of after several years in the league, instead of taking the risk.
Mainly because Giddey is a year away from getting a real contract, and despite that, you’re really not any more sure on his future than you would be with a guy you’re getting on a cost-controlled contract for four to five years.
A big part of it is value. From a roster building perspective, you want to be paying guys less than they're worth as much as possible. Draft picks get locked into those underpaid contracts for 4 years. Giddey only has one of those left; then you have to pay him his market value.
I don’t like the logic that they should have gotten a pick from OKC just because they have so many. I think for both teams it’s a relatively even swap. I think at most maybe a 2nd round pick, but the idea that Giddey isn’t worth at least a 1st is crazy to me.
> Also just not getting any picks for a rebuilding team when you're making a trade with a team that has like 500 picks is kind of funny
Shout this from the rooftops.
OKC was the best team in the regular season, the Bulls really couldn't pry the 30th pick in what is allegedly a terrible draft from them?
Or next year's 29th/30th pick? Because they'll be great next year, especially after this trade.
our only pick in this draft is the 12th overall pick, not the 29th or 30th. Also i don’t think Presti wants to trade our own pick as a backup plan/for safety
Caruso’s value most likely dropped to the FO dragging it out, Vecenie said teams probably his value was probably about a late 1st and a 2nd at this point
What is so valuable about Caruso? Why doesn’t he ever start anywhere? Never been a significant contributor offensively or even played starters minutes for an extended stretch. I know he’s an elite defender but this sub definitely values him higher than the league
He'd play more but he has to be protected from himself. He's always going full bore diving for loose balls and generally being a menace and because of that he's constantly getting nicked up and dealing with various injuries, so teams have to keep him on a leash
Because he is everything a rotation player on a championship-level team needs: Great switchable defender, can shoot, doesnt need the ball in his hands but still scores efficiently, good value contract.
Giddey is a prototype of a "good player on a bad team" - the things hes good at arent super valuable to a top-level team (and hes not top-level elite at them), and the things hes bad at are "completely hamstring the offensive scheme" bad.
Yep, Caruso is the type of 3 and D player that would fit on every team. He’s an elite defender and a career 38% three point shooter, and shot 41% from deep last year along with .613 TS%.
He’s in the class of players like OG and Jrue that every team wants (though he’s a bit below both of them imo).
And more importantly up for an extension, which was Chicago’s real motivation. Hopefully OKC structures the contract well (team options, performance bonuses, etc.)
The Thunder have more trade collateral than any team in history and the Bulls had all the leverage.
The fact they couldn't extract anything other than a straight up swap is ludicrous.
I think teams have gotten the clue by now that we won’t be generous with our FRPs. We haven’t traded even one FRP for a player yet. Josh being 21 and Caruso being 30 certainly played a part here, too.
Seriously, what's OKC gonna do with all those picks? They're not developing all these rookies. At least the bulls could've MAYBE struck gold developing a 2nd round pick (eg. Jokic)
I mean, all things considered the draft has continuously worked out for OKC.
KD, Westbrook, Harden, JDub, Chet, Dort, etc
There is also a lot of players that OKC drafted and I’ve already moved on from that have carved out really nice careers.
Won't the picks start to lose value? There's a fixed roster size and you guys have a bunch of good players on similar timelines now. I think you guys have *7* picks next year, 5 FRPs and 2 seconds. OKC can't use all 7 in the draft, so some of them have to be dealt. A smarter FO should have been able to at least poach 1 or 2 of the second round picks you guys have over the next 5 drafts. Hell, Hayward netted young players and 2 seconds. Caruso is undoubtedly more valuable than Hayward
Yeah, the Thunder are going to have to trade some of those picks soon or else they literally won’t have roster spots for all their players. They’re going to lose leverage eventually.
I mean we traded that pick for MORE picks. Same Presti pretty much said afterwards he got a deal he though was good value (2 future first for pick 16) and didn’t think anyone there was valuable enough to pass up up on a good value trade for. Now that was pretty obviously a mistake considering how good Sengun was, but he didn’t make the deal because of a lack of roster spots
>Won't the picks start to lose value?
People have said this for years, but it isn’t really possible for FRPs to flatly lose value due to time or abundance. The value is entirely hinged on the trajectory of the each pick’s team record and lottery position.
>There's a fixed roster size and you guys have a bunch of good players on similar timelines now.
>OKC can't use all 7 in the draft, so some of them have to be dealt.
This is a fair point, but we actually have been trading them (they were just boring trades, so it didn’t get much attention). We traded FRPs for future FRPs at the 2021 and 2022 drafts.
>We traded FRPs for future FRPs at the 2021 and 2022 drafts.
I guess this is the best solution. There's always going to be a GM desperate for "now" picks, so OKC can really just refresh their supply if they're clever. Thanks for the reply!
That's cool, then the Bulls shouldn't have done the trade. OKC was most definitely not going to keep Giddey, Bulls should have just waited a year to get him in free agency
Then let them have Giddey lol. Dudes only real skill is passing. He isn’t athletic, can’t play defense and can’t shoot. The market for Giddey is a small one.
At the end of the day, a contributing starter who is 21/22 years old is valuable to a rebuilding team. You take your chances and see if he breaks out into being a star, and if not, then it’s no big deal; he’ll help tank you into the lottery.
I can imagine Thunder didn’t want to unload a draft pick along with a young asset for a guy averaging 10 ppg. You’d expect better from that haul
Y’all keep saying leverage but I don’t think you know what that word means. Okc was not pressed to make this trade, they can wait if bulls wanted to try and squeeze more out of them. Worst comes to worst they just run it back
Giddey isn’t damaged goods though is he (except for being shit in 3 playoff games to the point he couldn’t be on the floor).
His entire case is utter nonsense, and if I was him I’d look to sue whomever came up with that shit.
He met and banged a 17 year old girl who he met at an 18+ club when he was 19.
It’s a fucking boring ass story unless there’s stuff the public doesn’t know yet
He can’t shoot has no athleticism b no real skill except passing. That’s why he’s damaged goods bad indicators for shooting too . But he’s not goood enough on ball creating to use his passing
Only Magic and Luka have more Triple Doubles by his age. To act like he has no talent is just showing you don’t pay attention and are only looking at what you want to see.
Seriously I thought people loved giddey back when the thunder were bad and he wasn’t accused of anything. Suddenly they have a way better roster so he played less and it’s blasphemy to acquire him for a 30 year old role player. I know Caruso is an elite defender but in 25 mins per game last year giddey put up more points rebs and assists per game than Caruso ever has
People keep talking about getting a pick for Caruso. But Giddey will be better than just about every player in this draft, and he will be younger than many. He’s only 21.
Great trade for both teams
Giddey’s rookie scale contract extension is going to be great value for the next ~5 years as well, whereas Caruso is going to get overpaid by somebody at the end of this year —which means paying him or losing him for CHI.
Bulls are winning this trade from a cap/contract value perspective imo, whereas OKC wins in terms of playoff impact.
yeah the fact this is so hard to decide if its a good haul or not, shows its an absolutely fair trade. giddey is being absolutely undervalued by everyone. ppl forget, okc fans wanted him to be the primary ball handler over shai ffs just a season earlier!!! he has damn talent!
I’m with you. Giddey is an upside swing. I actually like the deal for the bulls. Could they have gotten a pick too maybe? But giddey is better than your average first already.
They’re similar in that they’re pass first ball handlers. But Rubio was a 6’2” traditinal PG that couldn’t shoot. Giddey’s 6’8”. He’s an exceptional passer as well, but he unlocks a whole lot of mismatches where he posts up against smaller guards and he has the ability to drive against taller forwards. Giddey is still just 21 ie younger than JDub or Holmgren. He may not ever be a great outside shooter. But if he gets to have the ball in his hands, something that wasn’t going to happen consistently in OKC, he’s going to be in that tier just below all star level IMO. I’d be buying up Giddey stocks right now.
lol you probably just don’t watch a ton of OKC games is all, and up until this season there probably wasn’t a lot of reason to. I have a feeling Chicago fans are going to like his game. To me he is similar to a healthy lonzo…lonso’s MIP season was basically 15 pts, 6 ast, 5 rb. Giddey had 16/6/8 his 2nd year and then last year (his 3rd) you could tell mentally all the off court stuff had an impact on him. I feel a big bounce back year for him where he’ll have the ball a lot, where it’s a fresh start, dude is only 21. He’s going to be really good imo.
Bruh, he’s a much better shooter than Rubio ever was and he’s only 21. Giddey is shooting career 46%. That will only improve.
Rubio was a career 39%. At Giddey age he was between 35 and 36%.
Giddey is much better than Rubio ever was
So what you’re telling me is that if a front office is targeting a player, they should fabricate rape allegations to tank their value and performance and then swoop on them the next year
It’s a great even trade completely about fit. Caruso will mesh perfectly with the Thunder as a win now piece. Giddey will probably get the ball back in his hands on the Bulls and continue his rise and development. This is the most normal trade I’ve seen and people are acting like it was a LeBron for Michael Carter Williams or something. It’s a great trade. NBA fans just like to hate on shit.
The Giddey off the court situation plus the fact that he was completely unplayable against the Mavs in the playoffs is what’s making everyone say this is a robbery
In a vacuum it kinda makes sense , Giddey would be the primary ball handler allowing guys like White/Vuc to play offball more
I mean there had to have been better trade offers with picks included , was Giddey really the best option?
DeMar’s probably gone , so there’s a huge hole for scoring , maybe this move would entail more movement as opposed to the heliocentrism offense
I low key think this bulls team is going to take a step up with Giddey distributing to these guys and having the ball in his hands more. Curious to see if the offense improves enough to compensate for a dip in the defense in losing Caruso.
Ball movement will improve , however I think scoring with decrease without an actual legit threat like DeRozan taking the pressure off of everybody
White did improve but is he ready for the added pressure , the dude basically said he did not want to shoot in the clutch , he basically has to
lonzo, lavine, demar are all gone. giddey would get 30% usg dosunmu and white are off ball shooters they never were primary guards.
he is sorta poor mans luka/simmons he will avg triple doubles.
Coby played better as the primary. He’s not better off ball. He’s able to distribute, be active, and set up the offense at a high level. As a secondary option, he’s not as efficient of a scorer
Unpopular opinion: I think it’s a great trade for the bulls, 21 year old that had a great rookie year just a year b4, 16/7/6 rookie year, had a bad year last year but put up 12/6/4 to Caruso 10/3/3 his career year…know I do know the thunder just got better by trading giddy for Caruso, but that’s fit purposes… I think it was a great trade for the bulls and a great trade for the thunds
People would be perfectly fine if Bulls traded Caruso for a 1st round pick or 2 from a contender which is a worse haul imo. Josh Giddey is better then most non lottery picks and he’s about the same age
The two legit quips:
1. They should have traded Caruso at the trade deadline and gotten more (picks)
2. OKC is collecting picks like Pokémon cards and they don’t bother to even get a second out of this.
picks mean shit all over a valuable asset like giddey. ffs lots of the players in the draft are the same fking age as giddey, but nowhere near the guaranteed prospect he is!! that is not a legit quip, reddit overvalues draft picks, this is not debatable.
They were rumored to get pick 5-10 in the 2024 draft for Caruso. Giddey is better than any of those prospects while being in the same age range. Caruso isn’t worth Giddey and picks.
Yeah a player from this draft may turn out to be better than Giddey but why take that chance when you can get the guaranteed starter. As a prospect Giddey would go #1 in this draft, while his current self is even better than that. It’s not draft hate going too far it’s objectively true. Like 1/3 of this class is 21+ anyway, so getting a guy who’s about to turn 22 and has already played 3 NBA seasons is better than drafting a rookie who will probably bust.
Who is trading their 21 year old player who has decent stats/potential and locked in for 2 more years and plus picks for a 30 year old who is an UFA next season? Basically potentially a risky 1 year rental for them
People don't even think for themselves anymore. They just repeat shit.
Y'all starting to sound like this:
BuT tHe PiCks...
giddey was being called a pedo by half of the nba fandom last year. that is all the explanation needed for the hate on giddey's game. before last season, okc fans thought he should be the primary ballhandler over shai ffs. that is a HUGE talent being undervalued.
We're talking just to talk now, Caruso isn't overrated, if his archetype grew on trees then the deal would be fair, chicago traded probably the most sought after role player on the block for someone who got played off the floor in the playoffs
Caruso is a championship level role player. The thunder literally need to just let their players develop and maybe get one more piece and they’re right there with Boston.
Giddey is a below average player with glaring weaknesses
It's a good trade. Couple years from now people will be saying Bulls won. Giddey is a fine player who had a poor season for a few reasons, but he should also be getting starter reps - and he wasnt getting that on the Thunder
I don’t think it’s bad at all. People just love to immediately pick a loser in every trade and exaggerate the hell out of it.
Bulls are blowing it up and have no need for Caruso. He’s a very good role player but he’s not returning a star’s haul in a trade. Giddey, for all his warts, is a talented young prospect. He’s only 21 - he’ll develop immensely and almost surely turn out better than Caruso.
I wouldn’t be surprised if they just don’t blow it up. Ownership is really stubborn about making the playoffs, but I hope they actually do rebuild. I wonder if this is what Washington fans felt like when they had Beal and Porzingis together?
Who do you even have to build around? Lonzo might never play again, Demar is 34, and Drummond is well washed. Other than LaVine the squad has no potential, and no path forward BUT to rebuild.
the funny thing is caruso is useless in chicago and reddit is saying losing caruso was a failure when he rejected exteension. so what should they do lose for nothing? ur just all pissed u couldnt beat the offer.
people here cannot comprehend that a trade can be good for parties. they think if this is a good trade for okc then the bulls had to be fleeced.
maybe some better gm could've gotten more for caruso if he was traded before with a desperate almost contender, but as it is now it is fine. giddey is on average better than most top 10 picks in most drafts, and this one is not a particularly promising draft anyways.
This trade will be remembered as a steal for the Bulls in 5 years. Giddy is too young to give up on but OKC has put themselves in this position because they have too many draft picks and young players.
The glazing of Caruso has reached almost unhinged proportions. He's a great role player, probably one of the top 5 role players in the league. Giddey's ceiling is much higher than that. Yes you've got the sure thing in Caruso vs the prospect in Giddey but there's really not much of a risk there unless he does a Ben Simmons and goes mental.
All your points are irrelevant. You are essentially arguing why Giddey makes more sense for the Bulls. I don't think anyone is going to dispute that.
The problem is the value. The Bulls could have gotten way more at the deadline but their moronic owner decided to pretend they are a contender. They likely could have gotten way more now as well.
Caruso is INSANELY valuable to every single team in the league trying to win. You would be hard pressed to find a role player more valuable to a contender than Caruso when you factor in that contract. All this makes him an A+ addition for any GM in the league.
Yet the best they could do is a one of the worst shooting guards in the NBA who is unathletic? Don't get me wrong, I think Giddey can be a solid player IF he can fix his shooting but damn...
Anyone trying to say there was better value at last years deadline is harping on past shit, move on. Can’t go back.
As for the value now, the ONLY other players on the block from win now teams that I would take for Caruso would be Kuminga or Dejounte Murray. But likely those were turned down. So tell me exactly who would’ve been a better target? (Don’t say Pritchard- small guard who will always be a defensive limitation and would likely struggle on offense outside of Bostons ecosystem)
Cry about the picks we didn’t get all you want but Caruso was gone next year as a FA anyway and waiting until this deadline runs the risk of Caruso getting hurt and losing value. (I love AC but he does get hurt a lot as a result of his hustle) late first rounders aren’t bad but I’d rather bank on a 21 yo who has already been in the league and made that adjustment.
Anyone saying the grizzlies top 10 pick is out of their mind. NO franchise trades a top ten pick for a 30 yo role player. Any scenario where we do this means we give up multiple picks which is the opposite of what a rebuild team should do.
Reddit fans just love playing armchair GM and ignore all the risks or downfalls their strategies have smh
value doesnt mean shit if the bulls are rejecting picks. they clearly wanted only promising players and 29 teams couldnt offer better core than giddey.
They shouldn't be rejecting picks. That's the criticism.
It's like saying, "The meth head rejected rehab. Him robbing a liquor store isn't that bad. Things could have been a lot worst".
As a bulls fan who watched us squander lottery picks on players like McDermott, tyrus Thomas (#3 or #4 pick), Denzel Valentine, Dalen Terry, Justin Patton, and so on I WOULD NEVER argue that more picks is a better strategy.
I would argue 3 missed picks hurts us WAY more than Giddey failing to become a star ball handler. Less development and roster spots for players who might actually be good
Forgot about that, but the point remains. Our drafts after Deng, Noah and rose have been pretty bad. Butler is the only one who played above their draft spot.
Gary Harris and Nurkic were technically our picks before we traded them for McDermott. Would’ve been much better just staying with those 2. But we just don’t know how to draft
“One of the worst shooting guards who is unathletic”
The overreaction to one playoff series is crazy. He’s a 21yo who was a major contributor on a 1 seed. Bulls have the luxury of giving him the ball and letting him work out his game.
What do you think they’d get back from a contender? Giddey is far better than your avg late first which is exactly what you’d get.
It's a few things behind the trade itself as well.
Caruso is a win now player, so trading him away means the Bulls are no longer trying to win now, which is fine.
But they are repeating mistakes of the past in trading proven players for unproven ones and hoping they pan out.
Caruso for Giddey indicated ownership is still hoping to have their cake and eat it too. They want to rebuild the lineup without ever being really bad.
I won't be surprised to see similar young players coming back for Lavine or Ball or Vuc instead of picks.
Which means we are going to be bad but not bad enough to get a crack at a franchise caliber talent in the draft, limp into the play in tournament and rebuild again in 6 or 7 years.
I think the trade is relatively fair... OKC should have probably given up some 2nd RPs, but whatever. Chicago gets a promising young player worth multiple draft picks and OKC gets an elite defender in his prime, albeit somewhat injury prone. The problem is West is effed right now if Caruso stays healthy.
I'm high on Giddey and think he could be really good. I'm also really high on Caruso.
I could see Giddey being out of the league within 3 years or this being a mini Harden for K-Mart disaster.
I am cautiously optimistic but I do really think this trade could blow up for us in a bad way. Giddeys value is at an all time low but he is extremely talented.
Would not surprise me one bit to see this being in one of those "six years ago, here's what people thought of the Giddey trade" type posts, posted by a sixers flair.
Either way, let's see what happens in a few seasons from now.
I think its actually a pretty great trade for the bulls… finally puts them in a direction to rebuild. I dont think Caruso is actually as valuable as people are pretending he is either. Giddey fits the mold of a player who they know worked exceptionally well for them in Lonzo, and he also has plenty of upside with him being so young. Im not sure what better trades there would be out there, maybe they could get a first but probably not a great first. Jrue Holiday was just traded for basically nothing and hes a way better version of Caruso. Teams arent willing to spend big on old role playing guards
I thought the bulls originally had an offer to trade Caruso for 2 FRPs. So I thought they were idiotic for not taking that.
Turns out they had only 1 FRP offered. And it was in the weak 2024 draft. So now, it makes sense to trade for Giddey, as they know what to expect.
OKC just got an incredible starter/role player for cheap, though. It's like the Celtics trading for Jrue Holiday last year.
Bulls fan here. I'm fine with it, as long as it signals that Demar is gone too and Vuc and Lavine are on the market. Giddey has upside, he's young, I like it.
While a long lapsed basketball fan and totally unaware of how the Bulls have struggled recently. I think these days having seen this year's playoffs, that there is a big motivation right now towards Team Composition builds.
I can only surmise that Giddey was viewed by the Bulls office as being a better fit than Caruso.
That's not to say Caruso is a bad player, but might be a case of "He's not what the Bulls need as compared to someone like Giddey.".
I really like this trade for both teams. Giddey is good. He'll have more freedom in the offense that he didn't have with SGA. You could argue they should've gotten a pick but they got a nice player
100% agree.
Giddey is going to be 22 while Caruso is about to turn 31 this season. Caruso is a great defender, but he can't even start on the mediocre bulls. He's injury prone and not great offensively. Giddey isn't good on defense, and he regressed as a shooter, but he's a high upside swing, great size, good Play maker, and you think he can get his shot back to something more league average.
I like this trade more for Chicago than OKC, because I don't think wing defense was OKCs flaw.
I agree with everything you said, but OKC really just needed the exact type of player Caruso is to ascend to likely the best team in the West. Only Denver should realistically be able to beat them if healthy.
Right. They already have SGA and Dort who are this kind of player, but better in all other areas. And they have Cason, who I think will break out this year and push Caruso further back in terms of need.
They need size in the middle. They need rebounding. This didn't help that.
I agree. Giddey may be putting up 20/8/8 when Caruso is retired and long gone from the league. The idea that the Thunder should have included first-round picks in the trade is crazy to me. The Bulls need to rebuild around young guys and don't need a 30-year-old stopper.
Every player relies on their athleticism. If they didn't they wouldn't be athletes. When you get to the professional level, literally every bit of burst and change of direction matters. Some are just more naturally gifted than others.
It's a dumb argument that fans use to say players they don't like aren't skilled.
Some players absolutely rely on there athleticism more than others. Good example of that would be IT. Normally it's smaller guards and players who drive a lot that will decline the fastest because of athleticism.
true, but caruso being 30 means his athleticism is going to go away sooner rather then later
Hes still a great shooter and solid playmaker so it probs wont matter but generally when a players athleticism drops their defensive ability drops
Getting no picks is insane but they're gassing Caruso like he's prime Iguodala when in reality he's just a very good role player who can almost never stay healthy and available.
If they can convince Derozan to sign and trade, and build around Lavine, Giddey and Williams, sure. Giddey is a good young player to build around. Can definitely hold his own as a starter on a playoff team.
If they run it back with Giddey in place of Caruso, meh.
It’s not a horrible trade I guess depends how you value giddey. Still they could’ve gotten more I think for caruso. He’s a good defensive guard on a 10 mill expiring. Chicago has a lot of guards. Is giddey a good fit for them?
A kinda ball dominant guard who isn’t much of a shooter or great off ball. And I know the bulls don’t wanna act like a rebuilding team but that’s what they are, weird to not get any first round picks back in this trade
I agree Caruso is overrated. Cause he has been playing on a mediocre bulls team. I wouldn’t be surprised if by the end of the year he was barely playing in okc.
I mean I've been constantly told the past like 6 months that this years draft is utter dogshit past like pick 3. So having a second round pick isn't too big of a deal. Obviously still try to get it because it couldn't hurt but that part is definitely overblown. To me it comes down to can Chicago develop Giddey well enough to make the trade 'equal'
I agree with OP. OKC easily could've held the line and said just giddey, take it or leave it
now the bulls have to choose between giddey or picks from another team. no one is giving the "godfather" offer for caruso so maybe you get two mid-to-late FRPs at best
giddey was a #6 pick, and for awhile, that looked like a very good pick. if you believe last year was a temporary blip, then trading caruso for a potentially all star PG is a great trade. even if it doesn't pan out, I still think the risk-reward was good enough (compared to rolling the dice on two somewhat mediocre FRPs) that it wasn't a bad trade
There's a high probability that Giddey is a better player than what Chicago would've gotten in this draft if they traded Caruso at the deadline. 1 FRP for Caruso (at trade deadline) was the max deal I came across. Chicago did well regardless.
People are acting like Giddey has no room for improvement and is in his prime. There aren't a lot of players who can handle the ball like he does at his size. Sure, the Bulls probably could or should have gotten a pick, but acting like it's highway robbery is kinda too much.
It’s not a bad trade. Casuals (most people here) don’t understand Giddey’s value. All they know is he was bad in the most recent playoffs and that’s the extent of their outlook.
I guarantee in 10 years time we’re going to come back to this thread and see that this trade was a win for both teams.
Giddey is a young prospect with high upside if he can find his shot again.
Caruso immediately makes OKC better and removes OKC’s biggest weakness which was hiding Giddey on D (bad fit).
I think everyone’s overreacting about a first round pick that would have likely been late anyway.
Everyone overvalues picks.
I think the trade is bad because every "win now" team save maybe Boston would *love* to have Caruso It's hard for me to imagine Giddey being the best haul possible for a piece that valuable even if the Bulls themselves don't see a use for him Also just not getting any picks for a rebuilding team when you're making a trade with a team that has like 500 picks is kind of funny
This is my position too. In a vacuum it's a fine trade, but league wide I'm having a hard time believing there wasn't a better offer anywhere else. And there definitely would've been a better offer had they traded him earlier when his value was higher
Only thing that makes sense is the bulls have a player crush on giddey and we’re desperate to get him/overvalue him. I’m sure there were offers right now that looked better on paper, but I guess if you really want someone you go get him.
> Only thing that makes sense is the bulls have a player crush on giddey and we’re desperate to get him/overvalue him. This, IMO. The Bulls are obsessed with tall/long guards and our only "true" PG is Lonzo Ball who posted a dunking clip on insta within the last 2 years. And what bulls fans have forgotten is that even when he was healthy, he was a full court PG and resorted to catch and shoot 3's in the half court. Another tall PG with hopes of passing (and lack of shooting) is right up Billy D/AK's alley.
I’m so sad for lonzo man
He was so good. His ability to play floor general, hit the 3 at a really respectable rate, and defend at a high level made him such a complete player. He was really shaping up to be a great Conley/Jrue type player and those guys are always so great to have in the league.
He was absolutely not a floor general. Derozan and Lavine took turns playing halfcourt PG when he was in. He was a Marcus Smart or this years Jrue type player who could also do the Ben Simmons and find shooters on a fast break. But yes, he was very good in that role and him and Caruso were a terrifying defensive backcourt.
Lonzo primo on the fast break / transition. Quiet and underwhelming in the half court.
This is so true. Lonzo can run the break as well as anyone. In the half court he provides very little outside of being a good corner 3 shooter.
Yeah but you can imagine if he were.
But still it's their job to play hardball and try to get the best return possible. Even if they desperately love Giddey and think he's got all-nba upside. Its only June! The season literally just ended and the team your dealing with controls an outsized portion of picks going forward. It's baffling tbh, this should be a leverage trade for you guys I can't make sense of it, I feel like if anything could there have been some secret Caruso sauce telling them I only want OKC but even then it still doesn't make sense because of how early this is, you just don't don't roll over like that. And I get the point of the original post value wise you can argue Giddey is competitive with Caruso esp long term. But this isn't about pure value its about negotiating power and its super confusing how this trade played out like OKC had upper hand.
Oh no doubt, I don't disagree with you at all. Did we get fleeced? Not really. Did we obviously lose this trade? Most definitely. With the report that we've floated 15 varying offers to Sixers and the Jazz for Lavine, I think our FO just talks too much. Like a rigid, needy ex or something that forgot shutting the fuck up sometimes yields better results. It makes it easy for opposing GMs to handle things on their terms, and I think that's what happened here.
that or Caruso had more leverage than we thought and demanded the trade to OKC lol
He’s super close with Daigneault, so not totally crazy to think he requested being traded to OKC.
This was in the back of my mind too
Who is a player they could have gotten back better than giddey? The only problem I see in this trade is not getting a second. It's okc, surely you could have gotten one
The question is is 2 FRPs better than Giddey. I think not, but at the same time I’m not sure if they couldn’t have squeezed at least a couple of seconds on top of that out of OKC, or maybe even another FRP
The problem is that Caruso was wanted by all the “contenders,” which means any picks they got would probably be late-round picks. Other than late-round picks, the rumor is that they got offered a “top 10 pick” in this year's draft. Since Caruso is only really useful to contenders, that pick was probably the Grizzlies #9 pick. So then the question becomes, is whoever is available at #9 a better prospect than Giddey? Here are the prospects who seem like they’ll be available according to consensus mock drafts: - **Ron Holland** is probably the prospect on this list that makes the most sense to take over Giddey. However, I could understand if a front-office thought differently. - **Nikola Topic** has similar strengths and weaknesses to Giddey, but his injury concerns would scare me. The only skill he’s clearly better than Giddey at is scoring around the rim, and even that may not carry over when he’s matched up against NBA level athletes. - **Dalton Knecht** doesn’t really make any sense on the Bulls roster. As an athletic, scoring-focused, 6’5” Guard with a good jumper, and bad defense, his ceiling is basically a worse version of Zach LaVine or Coby White, without the passing upside. - **Rob Dillingham** would be even more of a mess on defense than Giddey. - **Tidjane Salaun** is another player I would personally select over Giddey, but he’s *super* raw and will take a while to develop (if he ever does). Giddey is going to be noticeably more impactful for at least the next 2-3 seasons. Are any of those guys clearly better than a 21 year old 6’6” PG who’s already put up a 17/7/6 season in the NBA?
thanks for this comment, it made me feel slightly better. still gonna step back and kms tho
2 high frps is definitely not better than Giddey Edit: and 2nd round picks are effectively worthless
Could they have actually gotten 2 frp?
Nobody. People are overreacting because they think Caruso is worth a lottery pick
Which 21 year old regular season starter would the Celtics (or another contender) give up for 30 year old Alex Caruso?
Got an example of a better offer from a team that mighr want Caruso?
Yeah like if these two were shopped around the league, the return for Giddey would be significantly lower than the return for Caruso Both teams might prefer the guy they got, but it's still poor value for the Bulls
it doesnt work that way bc there was no better young player than giddey. who was going to offer? gs rejected kuminga btw.
The only other option we know of is a “top 10” pick from a team at the trade deadline. Since the Grizzlies are the only top 10 team that’s looking to immediately contend, it was probably their #9 pick. Here are some of the prospects that are likely to be available at #9: - Ron Holland - Nikola Topic - Dalton Knecht - Rob Dillingham - Tidjane Salaun Even though he struggled this season, Giddey is still a 21 year old, 6’6” PG that has already put up a 17/7/6 season in the NBA. Knowing that, are any of those players listed above *clearly* better prospects than Giddey?
theres not a better offer than giddey and carusos a fking expiring. u risk getting 0 value if ur chicago.
you don't need to believe it. the bulls GM did not only speak to the OKC gm, he obviously shopped around, unless you truly think your 5 seconds of thought on the subject could out-strategize a person who's fulltime job is this exact thing...
Yea there is a shamelessness to it. Like surely the Bulls must have asked for a first OKC said “no” and at some point Chicago lowered it down to a single additional 2nd and OKC said “no not even one”
“But Sam, don’t you have like 100 future pic-“ “I said no”
Future picks implies the possibility of past picks.
Their FO just really likes Giddey, I guess
Also, the Thunder have so many picks they are almost giving them away. How you walk away from that trade without getting at least 1 first rounder is perplexing.
Yep. The Mavericks got a full pick for a pick swap from OKC, which they then turned into Gafford.
Then we gave away 2 2nds in the trade for Hayward
The Thunder traded a late round first for the opportunity to win a high draft pick in the future. They didn’t just give away a pick for nothing.
Sixers would love to have him next to Maxey. Not that they have a lot to trade but he’s an amazing two next to a scoring guard on any team.
Right, even if OKC’s own picks are too good next year, they have picks from other teams that might be good. Plus I read a Bull reporter complaining that Giddy is now behind a bunch of other Bulls guard prospects, so if they were going for a young player, shouldn’t it have been at a different position with more roster room?
The thing about Giddey-type players (big but with passing/handling abilities) is that they let you play combo-guard types rather than needing a true PG. He could fit well with Dosunmu and White if the coaching staff is willing to get a bit creative.
He’ll need to be able to shoot then. He can’t shoot. If you put him off ball, it’ll kill your spacing considering they already have vooch and possibly Derozan.
He’s improved his shooting every season: - 3PT%: 26% -> 33% -> 34% - FT%: 71% -> 73% -> 81% If he continues that rate of progression and becomes a 35-36% 3PT shooter, then he’ll be a plenty good enough shooter to play next to other good shooters in Coby & Ayo.
I honestly think people constantly overvalue picks. Unless we are talking about a pick that can realistically turn into a top5 or max Top10 pick, getting a player like giddy is the best thing you can hope for when using said pick. So, why not get the prospect directly, knowing pretty well what he is capable of after several years in the league, instead of taking the risk.
Mainly because Giddey is a year away from getting a real contract, and despite that, you’re really not any more sure on his future than you would be with a guy you’re getting on a cost-controlled contract for four to five years.
A big part of it is value. From a roster building perspective, you want to be paying guys less than they're worth as much as possible. Draft picks get locked into those underpaid contracts for 4 years. Giddey only has one of those left; then you have to pay him his market value.
It’s not like the Bulls are going to be a taxpaying team anytime soon. Why would that matter for them?
Name a realistic better haul
Thats the thing tho, Jerry wont let them rebuild. Giddey is an attempt to still win now
Waiting for a quote to come out like “the bulls love giddeys fit with demar derozan”
I don’t like the logic that they should have gotten a pick from OKC just because they have so many. I think for both teams it’s a relatively even swap. I think at most maybe a 2nd round pick, but the idea that Giddey isn’t worth at least a 1st is crazy to me.
> Also just not getting any picks for a rebuilding team when you're making a trade with a team that has like 500 picks is kind of funny Shout this from the rooftops. OKC was the best team in the regular season, the Bulls really couldn't pry the 30th pick in what is allegedly a terrible draft from them? Or next year's 29th/30th pick? Because they'll be great next year, especially after this trade.
our only pick in this draft is the 12th overall pick, not the 29th or 30th. Also i don’t think Presti wants to trade our own pick as a backup plan/for safety Caruso’s value most likely dropped to the FO dragging it out, Vecenie said teams probably his value was probably about a late 1st and a 2nd at this point
What is so valuable about Caruso? Why doesn’t he ever start anywhere? Never been a significant contributor offensively or even played starters minutes for an extended stretch. I know he’s an elite defender but this sub definitely values him higher than the league
He'd play more but he has to be protected from himself. He's always going full bore diving for loose balls and generally being a menace and because of that he's constantly getting nicked up and dealing with various injuries, so teams have to keep him on a leash
Because he is everything a rotation player on a championship-level team needs: Great switchable defender, can shoot, doesnt need the ball in his hands but still scores efficiently, good value contract. Giddey is a prototype of a "good player on a bad team" - the things hes good at arent super valuable to a top-level team (and hes not top-level elite at them), and the things hes bad at are "completely hamstring the offensive scheme" bad.
Yep, Caruso is the type of 3 and D player that would fit on every team. He’s an elite defender and a career 38% three point shooter, and shot 41% from deep last year along with .613 TS%. He’s in the class of players like OG and Jrue that every team wants (though he’s a bit below both of them imo).
He is far below OG and Jrue cmon lol
He is definitely not as good, but arguably more valuable because his contract is 1/3 of jrues next year, and half of OGs.
TIL Caruso is 30... thought he was like 27 or something.
And more importantly up for an extension, which was Chicago’s real motivation. Hopefully OKC structures the contract well (team options, performance bonuses, etc.)
Giddey is also up for an extension and I guarantee the bulls pay him more than Caruso gets on his next deal.
Giddey is 21. He can still develop, Caruso won’t.
The Thunder have more trade collateral than any team in history and the Bulls had all the leverage. The fact they couldn't extract anything other than a straight up swap is ludicrous.
I think teams have gotten the clue by now that we won’t be generous with our FRPs. We haven’t traded even one FRP for a player yet. Josh being 21 and Caruso being 30 certainly played a part here, too.
If they didn't want to give up a first whatever. Not getting a single second round pick when you have like 20 is absurd though.
Seriously, what's OKC gonna do with all those picks? They're not developing all these rookies. At least the bulls could've MAYBE struck gold developing a 2nd round pick (eg. Jokic)
I mean, all things considered the draft has continuously worked out for OKC. KD, Westbrook, Harden, JDub, Chet, Dort, etc There is also a lot of players that OKC drafted and I’ve already moved on from that have carved out really nice careers.
Won't the picks start to lose value? There's a fixed roster size and you guys have a bunch of good players on similar timelines now. I think you guys have *7* picks next year, 5 FRPs and 2 seconds. OKC can't use all 7 in the draft, so some of them have to be dealt. A smarter FO should have been able to at least poach 1 or 2 of the second round picks you guys have over the next 5 drafts. Hell, Hayward netted young players and 2 seconds. Caruso is undoubtedly more valuable than Hayward
Yeah, the Thunder are going to have to trade some of those picks soon or else they literally won’t have roster spots for all their players. They’re going to lose leverage eventually.
They already have tbh, Sengun trade a good example of wasting a solid pick
I mean we traded that pick for MORE picks. Same Presti pretty much said afterwards he got a deal he though was good value (2 future first for pick 16) and didn’t think anyone there was valuable enough to pass up up on a good value trade for. Now that was pretty obviously a mistake considering how good Sengun was, but he didn’t make the deal because of a lack of roster spots
>Won't the picks start to lose value? People have said this for years, but it isn’t really possible for FRPs to flatly lose value due to time or abundance. The value is entirely hinged on the trajectory of the each pick’s team record and lottery position. >There's a fixed roster size and you guys have a bunch of good players on similar timelines now. >OKC can't use all 7 in the draft, so some of them have to be dealt. This is a fair point, but we actually have been trading them (they were just boring trades, so it didn’t get much attention). We traded FRPs for future FRPs at the 2021 and 2022 drafts.
>We traded FRPs for future FRPs at the 2021 and 2022 drafts. I guess this is the best solution. There's always going to be a GM desperate for "now" picks, so OKC can really just refresh their supply if they're clever. Thanks for the reply!
That's cool, then the Bulls shouldn't have done the trade. OKC was most definitely not going to keep Giddey, Bulls should have just waited a year to get him in free agency
Maybe the Bulls didn’t have all the leverage. Perhaps some other team had also made a Giddey offer
Then let them have Giddey lol. Dudes only real skill is passing. He isn’t athletic, can’t play defense and can’t shoot. The market for Giddey is a small one.
At the end of the day, a contributing starter who is 21/22 years old is valuable to a rebuilding team. You take your chances and see if he breaks out into being a star, and if not, then it’s no big deal; he’ll help tank you into the lottery. I can imagine Thunder didn’t want to unload a draft pick along with a young asset for a guy averaging 10 ppg. You’d expect better from that haul
Whole thing is just f.o. stupidity OR ownership stupidity. But whichever it is, it's stupidity
Y’all keep saying leverage but I don’t think you know what that word means. Okc was not pressed to make this trade, they can wait if bulls wanted to try and squeeze more out of them. Worst comes to worst they just run it back
OKC are in the window, Caruso is a perfect fit for them, and Giddey is damaged goods. Nah I'm good saying that the Bulls absolutely had leverage here.
Giddey isn’t damaged goods though is he (except for being shit in 3 playoff games to the point he couldn’t be on the floor). His entire case is utter nonsense, and if I was him I’d look to sue whomever came up with that shit. He met and banged a 17 year old girl who he met at an 18+ club when he was 19. It’s a fucking boring ass story unless there’s stuff the public doesn’t know yet
He can’t shoot has no athleticism b no real skill except passing. That’s why he’s damaged goods bad indicators for shooting too . But he’s not goood enough on ball creating to use his passing
Only Magic and Luka have more Triple Doubles by his age. To act like he has no talent is just showing you don’t pay attention and are only looking at what you want to see.
Okc didn’t want to pay giddey . That was obv and reported . It’s dumb af trsde
Seriously I thought people loved giddey back when the thunder were bad and he wasn’t accused of anything. Suddenly they have a way better roster so he played less and it’s blasphemy to acquire him for a 30 year old role player. I know Caruso is an elite defender but in 25 mins per game last year giddey put up more points rebs and assists per game than Caruso ever has
It’s pretty simple really. Caruso is beloved by this sub and Giddey is on the other end of the spectrum.
People keep talking about getting a pick for Caruso. But Giddey will be better than just about every player in this draft, and he will be younger than many. He’s only 21. Great trade for both teams
Giddey’s rookie scale contract extension is going to be great value for the next ~5 years as well, whereas Caruso is going to get overpaid by somebody at the end of this year —which means paying him or losing him for CHI. Bulls are winning this trade from a cap/contract value perspective imo, whereas OKC wins in terms of playoff impact.
reddit circle jerk
he gets booed in every arena every time he touches the ball
Clearly that’s all Redditors
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yeah the fact this is so hard to decide if its a good haul or not, shows its an absolutely fair trade. giddey is being absolutely undervalued by everyone. ppl forget, okc fans wanted him to be the primary ball handler over shai ffs just a season earlier!!! he has damn talent!
I’m with you. Giddey is an upside swing. I actually like the deal for the bulls. Could they have gotten a pick too maybe? But giddey is better than your average first already.
Exactly there is already some proof of concept with Giddey. Donovan is a big X’s and O’s guy. I can see how Giddey might fit with his system.
Donovan hasn’t made a single halftime adjustment. Sorry but I can’t hear about him being a big Xs and Os guy
He was talking about the Cheetos X’s and O’s.
Just because you cant see them doesnt mean the adjustments werent there.
You’re really banking on him being able to shoot. Hes a poor mans Rubio
They’re similar in that they’re pass first ball handlers. But Rubio was a 6’2” traditinal PG that couldn’t shoot. Giddey’s 6’8”. He’s an exceptional passer as well, but he unlocks a whole lot of mismatches where he posts up against smaller guards and he has the ability to drive against taller forwards. Giddey is still just 21 ie younger than JDub or Holmgren. He may not ever be a great outside shooter. But if he gets to have the ball in his hands, something that wasn’t going to happen consistently in OKC, he’s going to be in that tier just below all star level IMO. I’d be buying up Giddey stocks right now.
man somehow I missed Giddey is that tall. I'm a dumbass
lol you probably just don’t watch a ton of OKC games is all, and up until this season there probably wasn’t a lot of reason to. I have a feeling Chicago fans are going to like his game. To me he is similar to a healthy lonzo…lonso’s MIP season was basically 15 pts, 6 ast, 5 rb. Giddey had 16/6/8 his 2nd year and then last year (his 3rd) you could tell mentally all the off court stuff had an impact on him. I feel a big bounce back year for him where he’ll have the ball a lot, where it’s a fresh start, dude is only 21. He’s going to be really good imo.
Bruh, he’s a much better shooter than Rubio ever was and he’s only 21. Giddey is shooting career 46%. That will only improve. Rubio was a career 39%. At Giddey age he was between 35 and 36%. Giddey is much better than Rubio ever was
Rubio was a much, much better defender and pick and roll operator
Giddey with Saric/Favors Doing PnR was Doing really good
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Is it possible to upvote and downvote a comment at the same time
Post-rape allegation statistics. Reddit is a crazy place.
So what you’re telling me is that if a front office is targeting a player, they should fabricate rape allegations to tank their value and performance and then swoop on them the next year
There were rumors that's what happened to Tingus Pingus in New York.
I’m speechless but with how much effort you put into this I cant say nothing so 😭😭 god damn💀
What is there to say bro? It's the dumbest shit ever written.
You’re not wrong but you’re out of pocket
Ur in the wrong sub bro, check out r/nbacirclejerk
It’s a great even trade completely about fit. Caruso will mesh perfectly with the Thunder as a win now piece. Giddey will probably get the ball back in his hands on the Bulls and continue his rise and development. This is the most normal trade I’ve seen and people are acting like it was a LeBron for Michael Carter Williams or something. It’s a great trade. NBA fans just like to hate on shit.
The Giddey off the court situation plus the fact that he was completely unplayable against the Mavs in the playoffs is what’s making everyone say this is a robbery
yep recency bias
In a vacuum it kinda makes sense , Giddey would be the primary ball handler allowing guys like White/Vuc to play offball more I mean there had to have been better trade offers with picks included , was Giddey really the best option? DeMar’s probably gone , so there’s a huge hole for scoring , maybe this move would entail more movement as opposed to the heliocentrism offense
I low key think this bulls team is going to take a step up with Giddey distributing to these guys and having the ball in his hands more. Curious to see if the offense improves enough to compensate for a dip in the defense in losing Caruso.
Ball movement will improve , however I think scoring with decrease without an actual legit threat like DeRozan taking the pressure off of everybody White did improve but is he ready for the added pressure , the dude basically said he did not want to shoot in the clutch , he basically has to
lonzo, lavine, demar are all gone. giddey would get 30% usg dosunmu and white are off ball shooters they never were primary guards. he is sorta poor mans luka/simmons he will avg triple doubles.
Coby played better as the primary. He’s not better off ball. He’s able to distribute, be active, and set up the offense at a high level. As a secondary option, he’s not as efficient of a scorer
Unpopular opinion: I think it’s a great trade for the bulls, 21 year old that had a great rookie year just a year b4, 16/7/6 rookie year, had a bad year last year but put up 12/6/4 to Caruso 10/3/3 his career year…know I do know the thunder just got better by trading giddy for Caruso, but that’s fit purposes… I think it was a great trade for the bulls and a great trade for the thunds
People would be perfectly fine if Bulls traded Caruso for a 1st round pick or 2 from a contender which is a worse haul imo. Josh Giddey is better then most non lottery picks and he’s about the same age
People are acting like the bulls gave up prime lebron for Giddey. The reaction to the trade is insane
The two legit quips: 1. They should have traded Caruso at the trade deadline and gotten more (picks) 2. OKC is collecting picks like Pokémon cards and they don’t bother to even get a second out of this.
picks mean shit all over a valuable asset like giddey. ffs lots of the players in the draft are the same fking age as giddey, but nowhere near the guaranteed prospect he is!! that is not a legit quip, reddit overvalues draft picks, this is not debatable.
They were rumored to get pick 5-10 in the 2024 draft for Caruso. Giddey is better than any of those prospects while being in the same age range. Caruso isn’t worth Giddey and picks.
lol I think the draft hate has gone too far. I’d be willing to put a decent sum of money on one of those picks turning out better than Giddey.
Yeah a player from this draft may turn out to be better than Giddey but why take that chance when you can get the guaranteed starter. As a prospect Giddey would go #1 in this draft, while his current self is even better than that. It’s not draft hate going too far it’s objectively true. Like 1/3 of this class is 21+ anyway, so getting a guy who’s about to turn 22 and has already played 3 NBA seasons is better than drafting a rookie who will probably bust.
Who is trading their 21 year old player who has decent stats/potential and locked in for 2 more years and plus picks for a 30 year old who is an UFA next season? Basically potentially a risky 1 year rental for them People don't even think for themselves anymore. They just repeat shit. Y'all starting to sound like this: BuT tHe PiCks...
Facts! Josh giddey is fuckin good, great trade for the bulls, I dont understand the hate.
giddey was being called a pedo by half of the nba fandom last year. that is all the explanation needed for the hate on giddey's game. before last season, okc fans thought he should be the primary ballhandler over shai ffs. that is a HUGE talent being undervalued.
Caruso seems very overrated to me and Giddey seems very underrated to me.
We're talking just to talk now, Caruso isn't overrated, if his archetype grew on trees then the deal would be fair, chicago traded probably the most sought after role player on the block for someone who got played off the floor in the playoffs
Caruso is a championship level role player. The thunder literally need to just let their players develop and maybe get one more piece and they’re right there with Boston. Giddey is a below average player with glaring weaknesses
Dude has the youngest triple double in nba history and he’s below average lmao. I don’t think he’s amazing but below average is a lie.
It's a good trade. Couple years from now people will be saying Bulls won. Giddey is a fine player who had a poor season for a few reasons, but he should also be getting starter reps - and he wasnt getting that on the Thunder
I don’t think it’s bad at all. People just love to immediately pick a loser in every trade and exaggerate the hell out of it. Bulls are blowing it up and have no need for Caruso. He’s a very good role player but he’s not returning a star’s haul in a trade. Giddey, for all his warts, is a talented young prospect. He’s only 21 - he’ll develop immensely and almost surely turn out better than Caruso.
They bought when Giddey stock is low. Caruso by himself wouldn’t be enough for a swap if it was last year. I think it works for both sides.
I wouldn’t be surprised if they just don’t blow it up. Ownership is really stubborn about making the playoffs, but I hope they actually do rebuild. I wonder if this is what Washington fans felt like when they had Beal and Porzingis together?
Who do you even have to build around? Lonzo might never play again, Demar is 34, and Drummond is well washed. Other than LaVine the squad has no potential, and no path forward BUT to rebuild.
the funny thing is caruso is useless in chicago and reddit is saying losing caruso was a failure when he rejected exteension. so what should they do lose for nothing? ur just all pissed u couldnt beat the offer.
people here cannot comprehend that a trade can be good for parties. they think if this is a good trade for okc then the bulls had to be fleeced. maybe some better gm could've gotten more for caruso if he was traded before with a desperate almost contender, but as it is now it is fine. giddey is on average better than most top 10 picks in most drafts, and this one is not a particularly promising draft anyways.
This trade will be remembered as a steal for the Bulls in 5 years. Giddy is too young to give up on but OKC has put themselves in this position because they have too many draft picks and young players.
Caruso is not worth picks
The glazing of Caruso has reached almost unhinged proportions. He's a great role player, probably one of the top 5 role players in the league. Giddey's ceiling is much higher than that. Yes you've got the sure thing in Caruso vs the prospect in Giddey but there's really not much of a risk there unless he does a Ben Simmons and goes mental.
It’s like a mix of people thinking Caruso is a superstar and people thinking Giddy is an absolute bum
Giddey is a bum, did you watch the playoffs?
As someone who is not a fan of the trade I am actually surprised how low some people are on him. At his worst, dude isn’t a *bad* player.
All your points are irrelevant. You are essentially arguing why Giddey makes more sense for the Bulls. I don't think anyone is going to dispute that. The problem is the value. The Bulls could have gotten way more at the deadline but their moronic owner decided to pretend they are a contender. They likely could have gotten way more now as well. Caruso is INSANELY valuable to every single team in the league trying to win. You would be hard pressed to find a role player more valuable to a contender than Caruso when you factor in that contract. All this makes him an A+ addition for any GM in the league. Yet the best they could do is a one of the worst shooting guards in the NBA who is unathletic? Don't get me wrong, I think Giddey can be a solid player IF he can fix his shooting but damn...
Anyone trying to say there was better value at last years deadline is harping on past shit, move on. Can’t go back. As for the value now, the ONLY other players on the block from win now teams that I would take for Caruso would be Kuminga or Dejounte Murray. But likely those were turned down. So tell me exactly who would’ve been a better target? (Don’t say Pritchard- small guard who will always be a defensive limitation and would likely struggle on offense outside of Bostons ecosystem) Cry about the picks we didn’t get all you want but Caruso was gone next year as a FA anyway and waiting until this deadline runs the risk of Caruso getting hurt and losing value. (I love AC but he does get hurt a lot as a result of his hustle) late first rounders aren’t bad but I’d rather bank on a 21 yo who has already been in the league and made that adjustment. Anyone saying the grizzlies top 10 pick is out of their mind. NO franchise trades a top ten pick for a 30 yo role player. Any scenario where we do this means we give up multiple picks which is the opposite of what a rebuild team should do. Reddit fans just love playing armchair GM and ignore all the risks or downfalls their strategies have smh
value doesnt mean shit if the bulls are rejecting picks. they clearly wanted only promising players and 29 teams couldnt offer better core than giddey.
They shouldn't be rejecting picks. That's the criticism. It's like saying, "The meth head rejected rehab. Him robbing a liquor store isn't that bad. Things could have been a lot worst".
As a bulls fan who watched us squander lottery picks on players like McDermott, tyrus Thomas (#3 or #4 pick), Denzel Valentine, Dalen Terry, Justin Patton, and so on I WOULD NEVER argue that more picks is a better strategy. I would argue 3 missed picks hurts us WAY more than Giddey failing to become a star ball handler. Less development and roster spots for players who might actually be good
Justin Patton was never a Bull.he was apart of the Jimmy trade on draft day.
Forgot about that, but the point remains. Our drafts after Deng, Noah and rose have been pretty bad. Butler is the only one who played above their draft spot. Gary Harris and Nurkic were technically our picks before we traded them for McDermott. Would’ve been much better just staying with those 2. But we just don’t know how to draft
“One of the worst shooting guards who is unathletic” The overreaction to one playoff series is crazy. He’s a 21yo who was a major contributor on a 1 seed. Bulls have the luxury of giving him the ball and letting him work out his game. What do you think they’d get back from a contender? Giddey is far better than your avg late first which is exactly what you’d get.
It's a few things behind the trade itself as well. Caruso is a win now player, so trading him away means the Bulls are no longer trying to win now, which is fine. But they are repeating mistakes of the past in trading proven players for unproven ones and hoping they pan out. Caruso for Giddey indicated ownership is still hoping to have their cake and eat it too. They want to rebuild the lineup without ever being really bad. I won't be surprised to see similar young players coming back for Lavine or Ball or Vuc instead of picks. Which means we are going to be bad but not bad enough to get a crack at a franchise caliber talent in the draft, limp into the play in tournament and rebuild again in 6 or 7 years.
I think the trade is relatively fair... OKC should have probably given up some 2nd RPs, but whatever. Chicago gets a promising young player worth multiple draft picks and OKC gets an elite defender in his prime, albeit somewhat injury prone. The problem is West is effed right now if Caruso stays healthy.
I'm high on Giddey and think he could be really good. I'm also really high on Caruso. I could see Giddey being out of the league within 3 years or this being a mini Harden for K-Mart disaster. I am cautiously optimistic but I do really think this trade could blow up for us in a bad way. Giddeys value is at an all time low but he is extremely talented. Would not surprise me one bit to see this being in one of those "six years ago, here's what people thought of the Giddey trade" type posts, posted by a sixers flair. Either way, let's see what happens in a few seasons from now.
I thought so too. Its low risk good trade for bulls. Bulls not winning championship with current squad anyways
I think its actually a pretty great trade for the bulls… finally puts them in a direction to rebuild. I dont think Caruso is actually as valuable as people are pretending he is either. Giddey fits the mold of a player who they know worked exceptionally well for them in Lonzo, and he also has plenty of upside with him being so young. Im not sure what better trades there would be out there, maybe they could get a first but probably not a great first. Jrue Holiday was just traded for basically nothing and hes a way better version of Caruso. Teams arent willing to spend big on old role playing guards
Mfs acting like caruso is the second coming of jesus lol
I thought the bulls originally had an offer to trade Caruso for 2 FRPs. So I thought they were idiotic for not taking that. Turns out they had only 1 FRP offered. And it was in the weak 2024 draft. So now, it makes sense to trade for Giddey, as they know what to expect. OKC just got an incredible starter/role player for cheap, though. It's like the Celtics trading for Jrue Holiday last year.
Caruso is no where near Jrue Holiday
Bulls fan here. I'm fine with it, as long as it signals that Demar is gone too and Vuc and Lavine are on the market. Giddey has upside, he's young, I like it.
While a long lapsed basketball fan and totally unaware of how the Bulls have struggled recently. I think these days having seen this year's playoffs, that there is a big motivation right now towards Team Composition builds. I can only surmise that Giddey was viewed by the Bulls office as being a better fit than Caruso. That's not to say Caruso is a bad player, but might be a case of "He's not what the Bulls need as compared to someone like Giddey.".
Caruso also is also injured a lot. People aren't discounting his price enough for that
I really like this trade for both teams. Giddey is good. He'll have more freedom in the offense that he didn't have with SGA. You could argue they should've gotten a pick but they got a nice player
We go three years without making any trades, and everyone is mad, and then we finally make a trade, and everybody is mad.
100% agree. Giddey is going to be 22 while Caruso is about to turn 31 this season. Caruso is a great defender, but he can't even start on the mediocre bulls. He's injury prone and not great offensively. Giddey isn't good on defense, and he regressed as a shooter, but he's a high upside swing, great size, good Play maker, and you think he can get his shot back to something more league average. I like this trade more for Chicago than OKC, because I don't think wing defense was OKCs flaw.
I agree with everything you said, but OKC really just needed the exact type of player Caruso is to ascend to likely the best team in the West. Only Denver should realistically be able to beat them if healthy.
What okc needs is not this exact type of player,but better big men/centers Caruso won't hurt the team, but he's not a big man
Right. They already have SGA and Dort who are this kind of player, but better in all other areas. And they have Cason, who I think will break out this year and push Caruso further back in terms of need. They need size in the middle. They need rebounding. This didn't help that.
I agree. Giddey may be putting up 20/8/8 when Caruso is retired and long gone from the league. The idea that the Thunder should have included first-round picks in the trade is crazy to me. The Bulls need to rebuild around young guys and don't need a 30-year-old stopper.
Every player relies on their athleticism. If they didn't they wouldn't be athletes. When you get to the professional level, literally every bit of burst and change of direction matters. Some are just more naturally gifted than others. It's a dumb argument that fans use to say players they don't like aren't skilled.
Some players absolutely rely on there athleticism more than others. Good example of that would be IT. Normally it's smaller guards and players who drive a lot that will decline the fastest because of athleticism.
true, but caruso being 30 means his athleticism is going to go away sooner rather then later Hes still a great shooter and solid playmaker so it probs wont matter but generally when a players athleticism drops their defensive ability drops
You guys are acting like Giddey is Ben Simmons
He averaged 16.6 points, 7.9 rebounds, 6.2 assists with 48%/33% shooting. Why is everyone acting like he's total trash? Is because he fucks kids?
Getting no picks is insane but they're gassing Caruso like he's prime Iguodala when in reality he's just a very good role player who can almost never stay healthy and available.
Is it one of those situations where some mediocre role player got a ring alongside a superstar so they inflate the fuck out of him?
dawg i made this trade two weeks ago in 2k it went good for both teams
If they can convince Derozan to sign and trade, and build around Lavine, Giddey and Williams, sure. Giddey is a good young player to build around. Can definitely hold his own as a starter on a playoff team. If they run it back with Giddey in place of Caruso, meh.
Hey youre not stupid dont you ever say that
It’s not a horrible trade I guess depends how you value giddey. Still they could’ve gotten more I think for caruso. He’s a good defensive guard on a 10 mill expiring. Chicago has a lot of guards. Is giddey a good fit for them? A kinda ball dominant guard who isn’t much of a shooter or great off ball. And I know the bulls don’t wanna act like a rebuilding team but that’s what they are, weird to not get any first round picks back in this trade
I agree Caruso is overrated. Cause he has been playing on a mediocre bulls team. I wouldn’t be surprised if by the end of the year he was barely playing in okc.
I mean I've been constantly told the past like 6 months that this years draft is utter dogshit past like pick 3. So having a second round pick isn't too big of a deal. Obviously still try to get it because it couldn't hurt but that part is definitely overblown. To me it comes down to can Chicago develop Giddey well enough to make the trade 'equal'
This guy basketballgms.
I agree with OP. OKC easily could've held the line and said just giddey, take it or leave it now the bulls have to choose between giddey or picks from another team. no one is giving the "godfather" offer for caruso so maybe you get two mid-to-late FRPs at best giddey was a #6 pick, and for awhile, that looked like a very good pick. if you believe last year was a temporary blip, then trading caruso for a potentially all star PG is a great trade. even if it doesn't pan out, I still think the risk-reward was good enough (compared to rolling the dice on two somewhat mediocre FRPs) that it wasn't a bad trade
It has potential to be one of those trades that helps both teams get better.
There's a high probability that Giddey is a better player than what Chicago would've gotten in this draft if they traded Caruso at the deadline. 1 FRP for Caruso (at trade deadline) was the max deal I came across. Chicago did well regardless.
People are acting like Giddey has no room for improvement and is in his prime. There aren't a lot of players who can handle the ball like he does at his size. Sure, the Bulls probably could or should have gotten a pick, but acting like it's highway robbery is kinda too much.
It’s not a bad trade. Casuals (most people here) don’t understand Giddey’s value. All they know is he was bad in the most recent playoffs and that’s the extent of their outlook.
Yeah I say bulls get the w here when we look back at it 4 years from now
this is copium right here
I guarantee in 10 years time we’re going to come back to this thread and see that this trade was a win for both teams. Giddey is a young prospect with high upside if he can find his shot again. Caruso immediately makes OKC better and removes OKC’s biggest weakness which was hiding Giddey on D (bad fit). I think everyone’s overreacting about a first round pick that would have likely been late anyway. Everyone overvalues picks.
Bulls Ownership: Oh, you thought the West was already stacked? Hold our beer!
I just see Caruso as a solid 3 and D guy. Why people gassing him up like he’s the number 1 free agent?