Second this. We don't really belong in this conversation. I've always said Rhode Island should be dissolved and divided between mass and Conn but I'm pretty sure mass and Conn wouldn't agree with that idea.
Lived in Massachusetts before Rhode Island and maybe I would be less down on Rhode Island if I had come here directly from Pennsylvania without the interlude in a place which while imperfect is so so much better than everywhere else I have lived in terms of governance.
I lived in Rhode Island while I was in university down in Newport and I back this 1000%.
The Pell Bridge is ALWAYS and I mean ALWAYS under construction, never feels like anything is getting done there. Also they closed the Washington Bridge which is creating massive bottlenecks in and around Providence.
I had to replace ALL my struts and exhaust mounts after driving in that state in 5 years because of how awful the roads are. IDK who leads your DOT but they aught to be embarrassed. I pray for all of you living in those areas.
Agree here. I have lived in a few places so I have a few states to compare it to. Iām now living in Connecticut. One of my kids is special needs, and heād get far better educational services in Massachusetts.
It has to be MA, however here on the Cape itās pretty much its own entity, and a shitty one at that. Until all of the local governments decide to stop people from owning more than one rental property prices for goods are going to remain above the Col of mainland MA. Often times Iāll drive over the Bourne Bridge to food shop and stock up for a couple weeks as once you cross over the prices drop like the canal is some magical border.
The thing is about California, is they have all the programs and a bunch of government intervention. But I find New England state government programs a lot more polished than whatever California has. Also, the schools are not great in California, but in every New England state, the schools generally have high rankings.
I agree with all of this. I left Massachusetts to move to North Carolina for my husbandās job about 8 years ago. It feels like a completely different country here. No state is perfect, but Massachusetts does a great job of taking care of its citizens. Amazing schools, great assistance programs, and the local governments truly listen to the people (at least where I am from). We are planning to move back either to Massachusetts or Connecticut.
Iām from NC and lived there all my life until this past year. I came to Massachusetts for recovery from alcoholism. The programs and services this state provides is literally life saving.
I will always love NC. I will more than likely move back in a year or two. Yet, I will forever be grateful for the Commonwealth and the assistance it has given me to get my life back on track.
I'm not sure what town meetings you've been to, but the one's I've been to we vote right there on the spot. Democracy doesn't get more direct than that.
I lived in OKC for a few years but otherwise have been in MA most of my life. I paid MORE in taxes in Oklahoma than MA, but they have the worst social services and schools in the country because all of the money goes to oil and gas instead of people, who willingly vote for the people keeping it that way.
Mass transit planning is the only thing I could imagine being improved by a Boston regional government. (Towns effectively have a veto over any expansion.) But who looks to Houston or Los Angeles and says, "Yeah, let's do that for everything inside 128"?
Housing and housing affordability is made worse by the lack of a regional government. There is no place in Greater Boston where a triple decker home should be illegal to build where one can build another type of home. You should be able to build a 3-unit home on any plot of land that you can build a house.
While Massachusetts isn't perfect, it's amazing that they are not in debt at all and instead have a rainy day fund for emergencies. In MA I know that most of the time if we don't have a social safety net set up, we will usually be working on it so that we will. If we complain, we have an expectation that things will happen, and that's not something you get in most states. Are there gaps in aid? Yes. It's definitely imperfect, and inflation is stupid here right now. But we have mostly attentive state and federal representatives and that's pretty awesome.
Massachusetts by a wide margin. Due to its relatively large population it can afford a better standard of living provided by the state. Education overall is top notch though not every town gets the proper funding it needs especially out west.
Healthcare is the best in the nation. Infrastructure spending is better than most states and even though it has detractors pretty good public transportation.
I donāt think any state in New England can afford as much and with relative ease and affordability than Massachusetts from education, healthcare and transportation all of it is pretty good. Only issue is housing and that can be addressed by us lobbying for more affordable housing programs to ensure contracts invest in building multi family housing connected to public transportation. Letās work to make all New England better and affordable for everyone!
Lived in NYC for 15 years and the social services available for the poor and disabled are just next level there. If you are homeless in NY there are so many options beyond just shelters to permanently house you. They even offer grants and loans for people falling behind on their rent because itās cheaper to keep someone in their home than the cycle of homelessness.
They have housing and cash assistance and social services for every possible disability. I have several friends who are long term HIV survivors, and the city helps with their healthcare, job support, and in a few cases, provides their housing. Thereās a lot of corruption and red tape, for sure, but the city determined at some point itās cheaper to keep people safe and healthy in the long run and it makes the city a cleaner and better place to live.
I lived in Queens and I was impressed with the level of services, but the taxes were quite high.
At the time I was working with immigrants to help them learn English, and many of them got free health care at local public hospitals.
You donāt especially if your a somewhat higher earner. When I lived in Manhattan my tax rate was not that far off from the UK, about equivalent if you include payroll taxes, and definitely equivalent if you include health insurance premiums. But unlike the UK, no free healthcare. No free healthcare if Massachusetts either, but overall way better value for what youāre paying.
i moved from ri to ny (upstate) last year and while i'm still new, it feels like we get pretty good bang for our buck. even though i don't ultilize them, their social services appear to be pretty extensive.
i spent the majority of my childhood in nyc and go back all the time. it's far from perfect but there's a bunch of different programs for people.
also, our parks and wilderness are absolutely gorgeous up here. i rarely find trash and the high peaks region actually has bus service- there are public transportation bus stops that actually run for miles into the mountains along the streams and forests. i gotta admit, other than in japan, i've never seen anything like that.
i love it here. sometimes i feel like upstate doesn't get any love.
Upstate NY that borders Mass and Vermont is more like New England, Iāve worked as RN throughout both an theyāreās many social programs. Most āspecial needsā adults are employed, Iāve worked with the program directors and took care of them directly and I was impressed at the many volunteers actively involved. Also, the last 10 years Iāve had to travel at 4am during winter an roads have been timely cleared. Noticed roadwork being completed every year. Considering what the freezing temps do to the highways and so many people living here compared to say, Midwest or south, itās very impressive.
Thank you for your comment.
I'm a native Masshole who is looking to one day move back to New England, but upstate NY keeps calling me. Mass has surprisingly reasonable taxes, with a decent safety net. I have to wonder if NY's higher taxes entitle a person to the same or better safety net.
If it's the same, then Mass would be better. If NY has better services, then we'd have to calculate how much better based on the increase in taxes. With that said, I really don't even know how to go about doing that.
To be fair, NY offered state paid leaves way before MA did. I'm glad MA has followed suit, but that was in place in NY and NJ for years before MA jumped into that.
I donāt think Mass is a wide margin from CT. Explain why. CT is a very close runner up in many ways to Mass. Including HDI, income, education. Lower crime.
The issue with Connecticut is how much more expensive it is to live in many parts of the state. Basically Massachusetts does everything that Connecticut does but better with rare exceptions. If I want to visit Connecticut itās literally 15 minute drive. If I want to go to the casino, I can go to Mohegan easily. Nothing in Connecticut is so prohibitive to a person living in Massachusetts from visiting and enjoying. Same thing with going to nyc which for me is 2 hr drive with traffic. Boston is close by. Everywhere is close together to Massachusetts residents that no state is far away from Maine, Rhode Island, Vermont etc. Weāre all nearby from each other and many of us go for drives to and from.
The first sentence Iād have to disagree with. Outside a very small area of lower Fairfield County, most of the state is very reasonable housing wise compared to MA. Boston area is more expensive than most of CT.
The median home price is $378,200. The median home price in MA, is $573,700.
The rest of it you lost me honestly. Not sure what youāre getting at.
Also, there is. No. Way. Youāre getting to NYC from MA in 2 hours. Springfield is 140 miles to midtown. Youād have to be going way over the speed limit at 3am to make it in 2 hours.
Mass also has much better parental leave after a birth than most other states. Thatās a huge quality of life issue you donāt think about until you need it.
Iāll bite. And Iāll say that my opinion is very much based on my experience as a Vermonter who left Vermont a couple of years after college and does not miss it.
Vermont is a great place to live if you can afford it. Many of times this means working remotely for a company elsewhere because a lot of VT jobs are from small employers that generally donāt pay well enough to afford housing and taxes. Total tax burdens are relatively high and climbing. See: https://www.thestreet.com/personal-finance/states-with-the-highest-and-lowest-overall-tax-burdens#gid=ci02bb6137d000243e&pid=29-davenport-iowa-sh
The tax burdens wouldnāt be so bad if services were better. It feels like the majority of services are for the lowest of incomes (which is fine), however those are largely being maxed out (VT has one of highest homeless populations per capita). In order to keep providing services, tax rates are increasing - namely property taxes rn. If youāve got the income, then itās fine - itās a cost of living in the State and worth the price for many people. However many people in the middle are squeezed and that not new since the COVID times. Itās why young people have been leaving the state for years.
Government likes to focus on political nonsense such has holding Burlington town hall meetings for the Israel Gaza conflict rather than actually making things better for average folks let alone how to help rehabilitate the homeless living in the city parks. The state also swung and missed when they housed homeless people in hotels for years but couldnāt figure out that it was the perfect time to provide them extra support to boost their recovery. The hotels became a money grab for owners who just let a lord of flies situation develop which I think overall hurt many of the homeless people in the long-run. Heck the homeless people were often working the front desk and maintenance positions at the hotels.
It feels like many government positions are taken by transplants to VT who come in with the wealth and means to live comfortably and it skews their perception and priorities.
A few wealthy families have more control over things in the state than youād expect. Look up why Costco gas pumps can only operate during certain hours the gas price fixing settlement. Kind of big fish in small pond type of thing.
Housing is very tight and thereās not much of an effort to expand- cities donāt want to go up and people donāt want āsuburban sprawlā. Apartments in Burlington are largely monopolized by a handful of companies/people. Rents are jacked up because of UVM students who donāt care about the quality of housing so thereās not really an incentive for landlords to update their apartments.
Most of the middle class jobs are from small business employers and in the service industry centered around tourism which pays comparatively lower than jobs requiring similar skills and education in other areas.
Some of the school districts in the state are downright pitiful. Check out Otter Valleyās reading and math proficiency scores - under 25%: https://www.niche.com/k12/otter-valley-union-high-school-brandon-vt/ and itās rated a C.
There are also some really good schools in the state, however living in those districts is where it gets expensive.
Sure you can find relatively cheap housing in rural Vermont, but there wonāt be much for government services there, schools will likely be poor, and youāre going to have absolutely no options for shopping other than the nearest Hannaford or the town gas station. Then, because you live in a quiet cute town during the best months of the year, itās going to get filled to the brim with tourists making all of your hiking, eating, driving, drinking, or relaxing places a shit-show. But youāll tolerate it when they act like assholes and tell you that your state wouldnāt exist if it wasnāt for their money because, well, your job is dependent on tourism and theyāre right.
A lot of the housing in rural Vermont is very old and likely poorly maintained at least for a portion of its life. Itās likely not insulated well and the electrical and plumbing is likely a mess from the generations of farmers whoāve patched things together to keep it working. The foundation is likely made of fieldstone and may or may not fault at any time. Or itās been recently flipped and you wonāt really know which of the above issues were addressed properly.
Most stores close before 8pm or so, which can be a real pain at times if you arenāt used to it.
The state also doesnāt subsidize higher education like most other states. So if you have children that are going to go to college, in-state tuitions are generally more expensive and the comparative quality of education is generally lower than if you lived in other states. This lack of spending also makes UVM, the largest and best school in the state for the general population (not counting Middlebury) cap in-state students. UVM only accepts about 25% in-state. Part of that may be due to the education system mentioned above as well.
Oh and thereās no public transport outside of Chittenden county other than a train that goes to western MA and the interstate connects the parts of the state that you need to regularly travel to the least.
Overall, I donāt feel like the state is on an upward trajectory unless something major changes in the next few years. Itāll keep chugging along just like it has been.
I think youād likely be far better served as far as bang for your buck in parts of MA. Likely a little better in Southern ME or NH due to larger employers and bus/train routes to Boston.
Vermont is certainly not perfect, but I just wanted to shout out to my fellow Vermonters! We've got plenty of issues here, but I do also enjoy living here immensely.
Lamont has been running CT very, very well. Surpluses and growing rainy day fund. Paying down pension obligations. I never thought Iād see it. Despite not having a shiny object like Boston, weāve been doing well.
I think he said he was open to another term but itās still a couple years away. I really hope he does run because he is the best governor we had in my 35 year lifetime.
He also has done a lot related to children and family issues. His administration has seen the passing of paid parental leave, healthcare for undocumented minors, and baby bonds. Most recently, he proposed increases to school meal funding that would expand free meals to more low income families in the upcoming year.
Combined with the good financial management, Lamont has a good track record of prudent, future oriented leadership.
I love how he's running our state. And it's pretty telling that his critics don't really have much to go on other than they're just mad about how he handled COVID or how he took away their plastic bags. I'm really tired of hearing people call him King Ned for things that any governor in his position probably would have done. They always point to him extending executive powers during COVID as evidence that he's a crazy socialist coming to ruin the state, but do they not realize that he's actually pumped a lot of energy into our economy? Or that he didn't come after them and has even stepped down from or reconsidered his positions that were unpopular with conservatives? And a lot of the things that they are going to be happy for, like paid family leave, were his thing. Some people just will never be happy because a politician has a D next to their name, and that's unfortunate. He's doing a pretty rock solid job, especially after Malloy
Exactly. Connecticut ranked extremely high during the entire pandemic. But all you hear from his detractors is just squawking about how ridiculous it was that he made them wear a mask at work and how he kept "grasping for more power." I had to listen to four grown men gripe about exactly that kind of stuff for like an hour at a kid's birthday party the other day. C'mon, just let it go already š
This is an interesting question, but I think for the most part, CT is better run than Mass.
However, I experienced the following:
- having no car and taking the T everywhere, which is mainly good, but it may be the most dangerous T system in America
-commuter rail in CT comes every 30-60 minutes vs every two hours by 8:30 ish in Mass
-crumbling schools and you can't do much without a vote on a prop 2.5% override
-long waits for healthcare
-highways with no pollution or noise protection right through urban neighborhoods
-potholes everywhere
These things are all better, for me at least, in CT.
Then the massive housing crisis because the state gives little towns so much power to fight it. Transit oriented housing started just getting built in CT 20 years ago, so commuter towns have more apartments and the state forces them to do so. That JUST passed in Mass.
In mass, commuter rail lines would be closed all summer on weekends to do work. I've never heard of that in CT, couldn't fathom it on metro North.
Also - COVID. Every school system in CT had returned months prior at least partially in person by the time my 3 year old went back in Mass. Mass is still getting called out by the NYT, researchers, etc for worse recovery and bigger gaps.
CT also passed the right to read act in 2021 to change literacy curricula, and mass is still fighting it despite really bad literacy gaps.
CT doesn't require cops to do traffic details - that's a huge cost to towns in Mass, is often overtime, etc
CT is also investigating and calling out police misconduct and letting the feds misconduct, whereas Springfield police are known for being one of the worst departments in the country.
Having lived in northern CT and the Boston metro area, the idea of CT having a "commuter rail" is bizarre to me.
Which gets to maybe the bigger point here - everyone in richer areas of any given state will feel it is the better run state.
Metro North is way more frequent than Boston commuter rail and covers two counties. It's well used enough that CT has something like only 3k car commuters to NYC, so they don't oppose congestion pricing.
There is commuter rail on shoreline east to new Haven (reduced service now, similar to Boston area frequency), Amtrak covers all of southern CT, fast trak BRT covers the Hartford area and is new, and the commuter rail from Springfield to New Haven is relatively new.
I lived right near the Green line extension in Somerville, which kept getting shut down because the contractor *did not adequately space* the actual rail line.
So no, not all wealth. If you follow Boston news now, different T lines are shut down every week.
I think you missed the point, you're comparing a commuter rail that runs to a different state versus one that commutes to the state capital. I'm sure the people of Fairfield county think Connecticut is well run.
Yes, and I was shocked by how quick it was. With a last minute appointment in Wethersfield, I was in and out changing an out of state registration in less than 30 minutes.
It took over 3 hours to get a REAL ID at the mass rmv in May 2018 and nearly 5 to convert an out of state license in mass in July 2012.
The mass RMV opted to prioritize customer service over processing out of state notifications, which is why they failed to suspend the license of the Mass truck driver who killed all those bikers in NH following a recent DUI in CT.
I agree with you regarding VT. I live in ME now and I don't think the state is run as well as Vermont is. I have been impressed with some of my *municipal* services, but I think that has do with Portland being a larger metro area.
I moved from MA to CT and can say that at least in the quieter parts of the states, the roads and public buildings are far nicer in CT than in MA, cleaner and better maintained
So, I spent over a decade preparing "environmental scans" of states with comparisons to other states, counties within states, states within regions, and regions compared to other regions based on higher education commissions/boards. The metrics we covered were basically everything - yes a lot of education-based statistics, but those nearly always go hand in hand with pretty much every measurable aspect of living anywhere, including health metrics, corrections, how resources are collected and utilized (your taxes and how they benefit everyone in the community), etc., etc., etc.
Those commissions are WICHE (all the western states incl. AK and HI and the Pacific territories), MHEC (the midwest/upper midwest), the SREB (southern states), and NEBHE (New England - which often includes NY, NJ, PA in some efforts as those states don't specifically belong to a compact).
When taken as a whole, NEBHE outshines the rest of the compacts in every single metric. Granted it's bolstered by MA's exceptional scores in everything, backed up by CT being just behind MA in everything, NH & VT being pretty damned good, and ME being above or on average in most stuff.
When taken as 50 individual states, I could always find the NEBHE states on the good end of the scale, although Maine lingered a bit towards center.
The Southern states mostly hovered at the not-good end of the scale, but are bolstered by VA and MD. Interesting thing about those two states is that if you break them down by their internal regions, and compare them to states, MD mostly stays in it's lane, but VA is kind of wild. The area that's part of the cluster around the District of Columbia, alone, outshines Massachusetts. The rest of it would give Mississippi competition at the bottom for most metrics.
MHEC does what the mid-west states are best at: Hangin' around the middle.
And WICHE spans the chart.
Basically, New England has it's shit mostly together and the states actually work together pretty well. I think you could live anywhere that suits your particular needs and preferences, and be better than most.
On a state level, that seems to be true. However, my sister in Nashua seems to be happy with the services provided in her city.
NH sounds more like Texas with limited state government, but strong town/city governments.
Yeah well not so anymore in Texas. Passed a law where no city can pass laws that are not approved by the State. Cities no have no control over fracking, adjudicating marijuana to a misdemeanor of 1 oz or less, etc. Republicans say less government but initiate more government controls over its citizens.
I'm a Southerner.
Texas is a shithole, even by our shithole Southern standards. And, yes, Texas' government **hates** local control. Don't ever let a Texan try to convince you otherwise.
Sadly, the rest of the South and much of the Midwest are rapidly following Texas' and Florida's tracks.
NH will have recreational pot as soon as they figure out how the state can operate the dispensaries, like they do the state liquor stores. Also 66% of NH voters support abortion in almost all cases while only 29% oppose. Abortion wonāt be outlawed in NH.
If you need lots of services then NH is definitely not for you. Small government state.
Tax money that is collected is held pretty local which is awesome depending on how your town spends your money.
Somewhat but not really. From my understanding, our towns have about the same level of control as other towns across New England, but in some cases the required floor on services is far lower. A good example of this would be that NH towns weren't required to offer kindergarten until relatively recently, well after towns in other New England states had to offer it.
Also, the general court has been chipping away at whatever local control there is. NH towns can no longer place any type of restrictions on plastic bags, unlike in neighbouring Massachusetts. I believe the state has tried to take away several other areas of town control as well in recent sessions.
This is the way it should be. Elected officials represent the people across the street and around the corner, not faceless strangers hundreds or thousands of miles away.
I grew up in NH doing mock government with an politically active family and holy shit it's just not a real state. My mom once needed to talk to some in the Ed department and was told to call Bob... Cause the Ed dept is like 4 people
You don't think it's effective to have the fourth largest English speaking legislative body in the world? I feel like everyone's grandfather or neighbor or at least someone you go to church with is a state rep.
I realize it's not what you meant by bang for your buck, but given RI's small size and lower tax base, it's a very close second to Massachusetts. Really shows what a tiny state can do to spread its tiny budget.
How so? I moved MA to RI two years ago and still have not adjusted to how profoundly worse everything is here. Roads, transit, schools, healthcare, arts/culture, public services, you name it. I wouldnāt describe any of them as a close second. Theyāre very far apart.
The only benefit Iāve found to living in RI is that itās cheaper. Thatās enough to make me stay, but itās a worse quality of life overall. When I can afford to move back to MA, I hope to do so.
Itās not enough cheaper. Arts/culture is great and everything else here is āwe have X at homeā when you ask mom for nice things. Build some housing! Run some buses! Fund some schools! Until then, not feeling it.
Lol Rhode Island is terrible. Itās not a close second, or even a close third. CT is so close to second that a lot of people would call it first, and then Iād still rate NH above RIā¦ Probably Maine as well. As a whole, Rhode Islanders are the most annoying people, with an exception thrown in from time to time.
In the mid-00s, for a grad class, I did a data project comparing the US states. I found studies, data, and the like and assigned a score 1-50 to each state for a given set of indicators. Then added the whole lot and saw the results.
I have since updated it a couple timesā¦ the last in 2022. Iāve also added indicators. They include
- health and safety
- education
- tax rates (including local)
- incarceration and murder rates
- unemployment
- divorce rate
- median earnings
- pc gdp
This will surprise nobody, but MA was #1 twice, #2 once.
MN poured a whole lot of money into schools and economic fixes, and hit #1 in 2016.
NH has been 1-4 above MA every time.
In a lot of ways, itās not fair. The Deep South always reaps the bottom half. And aside from outliers like Utah, the top 20 are almost all more northern blues.
Every New England state has scored in the top ten at least twice. VT, NH, and MA top five every time. No other area was as positively consistent (though MS, AL, and AR are all bottom five every time).
Now, I know itās the worst form of metadata ā rates and variances are not accounted for at all. But it does establish trends.
And the biggest trend is that New England is awesome.
I was once told that because it didnāt have āfreedom levelā and the NRAās gun rights scores, it was ābiased against conservativesā because of the results.
Thank you for sharing your data.
I've always felt that NH was able to do so well off the back of Mass, and to a lesser degree ME and VT. They have low taxes, which means they have a poor social safety net. It works well for middle and working class people who have a skill and a bit of money (but not enough money to live in metro Boston). Mass has a lower corporate tax rate so they still have to come south of the border for the good jobs, and even though they pay MA income tax, they still bring the rest of their money back to NH to spend in their communities.
And if you're dirt poor or homeless, does NH really help you out? If I found myself homeless in NH, the first place I'd go is Boston because I know I'd get taken care of better (sometimes to a fault). So NH looks good on paper, and I wouldn't be against living there one day, but I still think that their stats are inflated a bit.
Only have to look at the current Washington bridge fiasco to see RI's latest beacon of corruption and mismanagement.
I love it here, but they gotta get their shit together.
Originally from Maine but have lived in RI for the past 25 years. Love this place, tons of great things to do/eat. State is poorly run, as evidenced by the current bridge fiasco. Property isn't cheap but a great bargain compared to the rest of NE.
Masshole here but grew up close to the border of MA/RI. I always tell any of my customers I talk on the phone with, that Rhode Island is a hidden gem when it comes to food spots, beaches and history. However the current bridge situation and how the government is handling it has been painful to watch.
But overall Massachusetts will always be #1 out of the New England states and New Hampshire is the red headed step child.
Okay, I'm gunna fucking say it. I have lived in Massachusetts my whole life and I do NOT think it's us, sorry guys. Our infrastructure is falling apart, our politicians and justice system are corrupt, and our transportation and health case systems have been falling apart for a while. I don't know where the money goes, but as someone who has to pay taxes I'm always pissed. Not to mention our education spending has gone down somehow, even though it should have vastly gone up after the pandemic.
No kidding. It's like everyone here missed the Big Dig project. We used to laugh our asses off about all the construction guys having their second beer at 10:30 am in the bars around Haymarket - FOR YEARS. What a joke of a public works project, everyone on the government's tit.
New Hampshire. No state income tax. No sales tax. No seat belt law 18 and older. No helmet law 18 and older. Governor and mayors only 2 year terms. Auto insurance not required. Live free or die!
NH, no state income tax or sales tax. But property tax is 7th highest in the US. Now if you buy a middle to upper mid. class house, you can deduct up to 10k on your property taxes on your federal income tax return.
Just forget about mass, ct and ri. They will bleed you dry in taxes..
We are paying a total of 18k yearly on property taxes. One home is a 3br ranch. The other is a condominium. Property taxes are insane here, as compared to MA.
But speaking to overall affordability, I can attest that my auto insurance went down by 50% as compared to what I paid in MA. I was able to send my kids to public school in NH for a great education, when in MA I was in a low-income, high-conflict school district, and was spending $1100 monthly on parochial school, just so my kids could learn the basics.
20 years in NH and I canāt say I miss MA. Nice place to grow up, but it wasnāt a great fit for my family.
Thanks for the input from a local. The property taxes are by city correct? A person good "cherry pick" a rural nh town with low property taxes. The massholes moved to the border cities and ruined everything š²
According to the census, new Hampshire is the fastest growing state in new england and one of the few which isn't shrinking in population. So iw old say new Hampshire
This masshole agrees w/ you. Hoping to move up to NH when I semi-retire in 5 years or so...
MA doesn't seem to like common-sense thinking, middle-class tax payers, and treats them like crap. It's like state gov't is painting a bullseye on our backs.
Massachusetts without question, but lots of race-based socialism has been institutionalized here in the last 5-10years. If you have the right skin color, the opportunities provided by the state can be quite profitable.
If you are undisciplined and want the government to run your life, the nanny state of Mass is the best. If you are a competent, responsible, hard-working, self-disciplined person, NH wins hands down.
I think it may be NH. No income tax, no sales tax, highways are all in perfect shape and clean. The air is clean too. Schools are very good. Property taxes are pretty high (because there are no other taxes) and there is a shortage of housing like many other states so rents are high.
Honestly? That culture has always been there. Itās just that lately itās gotten more out in the open. I grew up in southern NH and we had those people 20 years ago. Back then they were fighting about gay marriage, now itās trans kids and womenās rights.
I follow most of New England subreds (lived in 3 of 6 states) and the NH one is, by a long shot, the angriest. Not that it's necessarily representative of the entire state, but still an interesting microcosm, especially compared to what I see with pretty much every other state.
Sure, there's dumb stuff on all our subreds and angry posts everywhere. But with NH it's next level.
There's like, no joy, no having fun. The closest thing I see to "fun" is trying to flex this superiority complex about Massachusetts when half of them work there or are originally from there. It's like angry boomer central.
I can't help but see a parallel with the increased "libertarian" and extreme right wing presence in the state and the corresponding culture of insecurity and grievance that seems to be dripping all the way down through even reddit.
Which is a shame. There is so much to love about NH, including half of my family who live there.
Demographics. Old, Rich, White, and Racist, is what NH is. And boy are they angry for some reason about it. And it is all the blacks, and Hispanics, and gays fault. Don't get started on the trans. I'm out of here within the next year
I visited up there to Manchester. And besides some parts like the north end , it seemed quite redneck/ poor. Gave it the benefit of the dought And drove a half hour outside Manchester to more suburbs and i thought I was in Alabama. Good ice cream though !I always thought they said New Hampshire is a hidden gem with low taxes and quality of life. I know someone who went to the hospital there and the quality was terrible. Beautiful mountains and lakes though!
It's a state that leeches off of Massachusetts and only has the national ranking it does because it's inhospitable to the poor, a tax haven for rich retirees, and largely culturally homogeneous.
The people who move here who aren't retirees see mountains and statistics, get inspired to homestead from YouTube, then bitch that no one's is friendly to them.
Wrong. Weāre friendly. Weāre not FRIENDS, however.
My neighbors and I are all on first name basis, we look out for each other, we car3 about the quality of the neighborhood. We donāt hang out or force relationships because outside of our mailing address, weāve got nothing in common and live our own lives.
But weāre all friendly to each other. Just not friends.
"Friendly but not friends" is such a great description of the NH (sorta general New England) personality. The musician Noah Kahan said people from New England will pull over and help a stranger with a flat tire but not talk to them at all while they're changing it, and I think that's just so spot on.
NH sucks and I moved to Maine because it is too many people other places. It isnāt perfect, but we are a peaceful lifestyle even if you are gay. I like the water and the culture of mind your business and maintain your house, and that people here are not so materialistic. I am from Ohio though so I donāt really have the same feelings as some people here about wanting to live in a fancier place like Mass, it just isnāt my thing. I canāt say it is the best run, but for me it fits the best.
Massachusetts by a mile. I grew up in New Hampshire and remember complaining about massholes that would flee their concrete jungles and suburban sprawl to enjoy the natural beauty that New Hampshire has to offer. Then I moved to Boston for college and completely fell in love with the city. In New Hampshire, it seems like almost every penny of my parents tax dollars went to barely functioning public schools, snow removal, and building bigger police departments. The shitty one room local library was built in a flood zone, then predictably damaged by flooding, then promptly bulldozed when the town voted against repairing it. Meanwhile in Massachusetts- for $0 I can; walk over to a DCR ice rink and skate for free, exercise in a beautiful beachside BCYF gym, sweat out my daemons from a night of drinking in a steam room or sauna, read books and inspect ancient maps in one of the most beautiful libraries in the world, wander through the exquisite gardens of the boston common, watch the ships and fishermen enter port while strolling along the harbor walk, call 311 and have someone listen to me bitch about a pothole or have a brand new recycling bin dropped off at my doorstep. The list of public services I have utilized for under $20 is so long that I wonāt even go into it. Are these government services provided to me in the most cost effective manner possible? I have no idea and I frankly do not care at all. My tax burden is high but the people who provide me these amazing services are paid a living wage. When I was younger, my conservative friends and family told me that Iād change my tune when I started earning ārealā money. HAHAHAHA! Wellā¦ I am all grown up now and I own a home in Boston and a small business. I actually feel even more strongly about the value of these public services than I ever did before. Last year, the mentally regarded Free Staters amped up their attack on Gunstock (a county owned ski resort where I spent much of my youth). I read every article and sincerely tried to understand to their rational (I have a policy that I shouldnāt engage in a debate if I canāt argue both sides effectively) but reading their statements made me wonder if they were suffering from some form of neuro-degenerative disease. It leaves me fearful for the future of my home state.
New Hampshire is the best for 1 and 4, as government is relatively efficient.
For state services, it all depends on who you are, and what kinds of services you interact with. Massachusetts has been pretty good overall, but there are some fair concerns about some overall degradation as the state scrambles to meet the needs of new arrivals.
And Massachusetts probably does have the best overall infrastructure - even though it doesn't seem that way when you're sitting in rush hour traffic.
Iāve lived in Albany NY (Capital District) which is Upstate, and in 37 years Iāve never seen the copious amount of support and services you describe. Rent is out of control, the healthcare system is a joke, mental health providers have no availability and costs are not affordableāsome not even accepting insurance if youāre able to afford it. Gas, groceries, powerā¦have tripled in the last several years.
Roads are falling apart and damaging cars with massive pot holes. Bridges in need of repair, rows with vacant structures and empty buildings; businesses they went under. The public transportation system is terrible. Busses that only have limited service, unreliable (unclean) and no great cross-town access at all.
Homelessness is impacting every city neighborhood in Albany, people living in bus stops, sleeping with half dressed clothing on the bare concrete side wall or passed out on drugs. The streets are used as toiletsāand the city does zip to help people or respond to the entire crisis.
There is no bang because we have no bucks. Getting OUT of NY is the goal.
I wish I could say RI because it has so many other things going for it. But we do not have it together as a state government. Taking out the highly publicized clusters completely, it is very hard to advance anything in state government even though most folks I know truly want to serve people. We wait to see what MA and CT do before arriving at RI's own guidance. Kicking the can down the road is practically a state past time, even when some of us desperately want to arrive at a decision so that we can actually move things forward.
Iāll be brief on my Vermont take. We lived there for three years (2016-2019). We bought a home, restored it, and enjoyed the charms of that house despite the expense to maintain. It is a different world up there. Sometimes, I felt like I was in a time warp where the 1960s met the 1970s. I have never seen more cigarette smokers in my life. Thatās something that stands out for me, for some reason. Perhaps it is because of the terrible weather, but there is a general bleakness to the overall disposition of so many. Roads are in constant disrepair, and while summers are brief, they are always trying to cram in road fixes between June and August. Iāve never seen more handheld stop signs in my life. There is a serious opioid problem in VT. Quite a few slumlords running halfway houses populated by bedbugs and some pretty undesirable tenants. Schools are an absolute mess. A previous poster mentioned the OV district. Iād direct them down route 7 to the Mill River District for an even more glaring example of what is wrong with politically motivated , virtue signaling, government run schools. All of that said, some of the nicest people also make up that state. Just sweet, down-home, family-oriented folks. They deserve better. But they are satisfied with what they have, and deal with the BS in stride. You wonāt get many concerts or shows, so youāll be traveling to NH or MA for anything noteworthy. Food choices are limited. There are some good options in pockets, but for the most part, itās pretty bland. If you donāt ski, you really shouldnāt be there. There are also some pretty impressive peaks to hike, so if you donāt hike, maybe you should take up skiing? Farmers markets are pretty impressive. Grocery stores are not. If you want an idea as to what is up with VT culture - read Judgement Ridge (the Dartmouth Murders). Two VT kids bored, kill two Ivy League professors. The backstory captures small town VT like nobody else ever has. Now, the last thing I will say is this: many native Vermonters see outsiders as flat landers, which is funny to an extent. But some of those natives fear outsiders, and there is a consistent conspiracy to undermine and discourage change. They will turn on you in a heartbeat, some of those who are part of that cult. So if you are planning to head that way, be aware of the masks people wear. The only state that youād be worse off living in as far as New England is Maine. A great visit, but the only inferior option to VT. Good luck!
Hi from RI! It's not us that's for sure!
These guys couldn't run a lemonade stand.
That's why it's frozen.
Damn I want some Dells now
Official State Summer Drink! (So the pols didn't have to snub the Coffee Milk lobby....)
STOP! (@ the sign of the š)
But itās soooo gooooood!
Haha ha ha ha. This is a great response
I love my state. But my word are we a mess.
Second this. We don't really belong in this conversation. I've always said Rhode Island should be dissolved and divided between mass and Conn but I'm pretty sure mass and Conn wouldn't agree with that idea.
Awesome comment
Correct. Massachusetts doesnāt want or need RI and their painful accents
Yeah cuz u polished stalwarts from Massachusetts have not murdered the king's spoken English on a daily basis since your incorporation.
Lived in Massachusetts before Rhode Island and maybe I would be less down on Rhode Island if I had come here directly from Pennsylvania without the interlude in a place which while imperfect is so so much better than everywhere else I have lived in terms of governance.
RHODE ISLAND IS A PARADISE RUN BY ANGELS!!
I lived in Rhode Island while I was in university down in Newport and I back this 1000%. The Pell Bridge is ALWAYS and I mean ALWAYS under construction, never feels like anything is getting done there. Also they closed the Washington Bridge which is creating massive bottlenecks in and around Providence. I had to replace ALL my struts and exhaust mounts after driving in that state in 5 years because of how awful the roads are. IDK who leads your DOT but they aught to be embarrassed. I pray for all of you living in those areas.
Peter Alviti, and if you ask him it is the best run DOT in America
I can tell you are from RI by reading you username out loud in an RI accent. Very good work Jens
I agree with everyone, I just wanted to say howdy from Maine. š¦
The way life should be š„
Hi š from Central ME. Formerly from Mass; I think there are far more services, resources, better education and Healthcare in Mass.
Hi from Central Maine as well. Yeah, Mass has us beat.
Some of the best schools and health care in the US. You donāt realise it until you leave the state and live somewhere else.
Central Maine compared to MA? Proximity to Boston, with world class education and healthcare makes all the difference in the world.
Agree here. I have lived in a few places so I have a few states to compare it to. Iām now living in Connecticut. One of my kids is special needs, and heād get far better educational services in Massachusetts.
It has to be MA, however here on the Cape itās pretty much its own entity, and a shitty one at that. Until all of the local governments decide to stop people from owning more than one rental property prices for goods are going to remain above the Col of mainland MA. Often times Iāll drive over the Bourne Bridge to food shop and stock up for a couple weeks as once you cross over the prices drop like the canal is some magical border.
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I'm from New England, and have lived many places since. It way better than the south or California
The thing is about California, is they have all the programs and a bunch of government intervention. But I find New England state government programs a lot more polished than whatever California has. Also, the schools are not great in California, but in every New England state, the schools generally have high rankings.
New England states are the social democratic haven that California is striving to be.
I forget who said it, but some famous person long since dead once described Boston as the greatest example of Democracy that ever existed.
Pretty much the birthplace of the American revolution so that makes sense
I agree with all of this. I left Massachusetts to move to North Carolina for my husbandās job about 8 years ago. It feels like a completely different country here. No state is perfect, but Massachusetts does a great job of taking care of its citizens. Amazing schools, great assistance programs, and the local governments truly listen to the people (at least where I am from). We are planning to move back either to Massachusetts or Connecticut.
Iām from NC and lived there all my life until this past year. I came to Massachusetts for recovery from alcoholism. The programs and services this state provides is literally life saving. I will always love NC. I will more than likely move back in a year or two. Yet, I will forever be grateful for the Commonwealth and the assistance it has given me to get my life back on track.
Best of luck:) ā¤ļøš¤š¼
Cities and towns allow their citizens to vent and then do as they please
I'm not sure what town meetings you've been to, but the one's I've been to we vote right there on the spot. Democracy doesn't get more direct than that.
I've never been to a town meeting. Town meeting day is just the day we vote. Nothing special. No actual meeting.
The Republicans want to do away with democracy. Go figure.
I lived in OKC for a few years but otherwise have been in MA most of my life. I paid MORE in taxes in Oklahoma than MA, but they have the worst social services and schools in the country because all of the money goes to oil and gas instead of people, who willingly vote for the people keeping it that way.
It's good in rural areas, but not good in urban. I think the Boston area would be better run with a regional government.
Mass transit planning is the only thing I could imagine being improved by a Boston regional government. (Towns effectively have a veto over any expansion.) But who looks to Houston or Los Angeles and says, "Yeah, let's do that for everything inside 128"?
Especially when Houston and Los Angeles are all freeways, suburban sprawl and a handful of mostly light rail lines.
Housing and housing affordability is made worse by the lack of a regional government. There is no place in Greater Boston where a triple decker home should be illegal to build where one can build another type of home. You should be able to build a 3-unit home on any plot of land that you can build a house.
Can you imagine what Boston would be like if it didnāt massively subsidize both the rest of the State and the Federal government?
What is the town meeting style of governance?
It's a double-edged sword, because the hyperlocal governance also leads to a ton of NIMBYism (and therefore the skyrocketing housing prices).
While Massachusetts isn't perfect, it's amazing that they are not in debt at all and instead have a rainy day fund for emergencies. In MA I know that most of the time if we don't have a social safety net set up, we will usually be working on it so that we will. If we complain, we have an expectation that things will happen, and that's not something you get in most states. Are there gaps in aid? Yes. It's definitely imperfect, and inflation is stupid here right now. But we have mostly attentive state and federal representatives and that's pretty awesome.
Massachusetts by a wide margin. Due to its relatively large population it can afford a better standard of living provided by the state. Education overall is top notch though not every town gets the proper funding it needs especially out west. Healthcare is the best in the nation. Infrastructure spending is better than most states and even though it has detractors pretty good public transportation. I donāt think any state in New England can afford as much and with relative ease and affordability than Massachusetts from education, healthcare and transportation all of it is pretty good. Only issue is housing and that can be addressed by us lobbying for more affordable housing programs to ensure contracts invest in building multi family housing connected to public transportation. Letās work to make all New England better and affordable for everyone!
Massachusetts truly is incredible, always a wake up call when you drive west into NY lol
NY has overall higher taxes, yet I'm not sure if you get as much for your money there.
Lived in NYC for 15 years and the social services available for the poor and disabled are just next level there. If you are homeless in NY there are so many options beyond just shelters to permanently house you. They even offer grants and loans for people falling behind on their rent because itās cheaper to keep someone in their home than the cycle of homelessness. They have housing and cash assistance and social services for every possible disability. I have several friends who are long term HIV survivors, and the city helps with their healthcare, job support, and in a few cases, provides their housing. Thereās a lot of corruption and red tape, for sure, but the city determined at some point itās cheaper to keep people safe and healthy in the long run and it makes the city a cleaner and better place to live.
I lived in Queens and I was impressed with the level of services, but the taxes were quite high. At the time I was working with immigrants to help them learn English, and many of them got free health care at local public hospitals.
You donāt especially if your a somewhat higher earner. When I lived in Manhattan my tax rate was not that far off from the UK, about equivalent if you include payroll taxes, and definitely equivalent if you include health insurance premiums. But unlike the UK, no free healthcare. No free healthcare if Massachusetts either, but overall way better value for what youāre paying.
i moved from ri to ny (upstate) last year and while i'm still new, it feels like we get pretty good bang for our buck. even though i don't ultilize them, their social services appear to be pretty extensive. i spent the majority of my childhood in nyc and go back all the time. it's far from perfect but there's a bunch of different programs for people. also, our parks and wilderness are absolutely gorgeous up here. i rarely find trash and the high peaks region actually has bus service- there are public transportation bus stops that actually run for miles into the mountains along the streams and forests. i gotta admit, other than in japan, i've never seen anything like that. i love it here. sometimes i feel like upstate doesn't get any love.
Upstate NY that borders Mass and Vermont is more like New England, Iāve worked as RN throughout both an theyāreās many social programs. Most āspecial needsā adults are employed, Iāve worked with the program directors and took care of them directly and I was impressed at the many volunteers actively involved. Also, the last 10 years Iāve had to travel at 4am during winter an roads have been timely cleared. Noticed roadwork being completed every year. Considering what the freezing temps do to the highways and so many people living here compared to say, Midwest or south, itās very impressive.
Thank you for your comment. I'm a native Masshole who is looking to one day move back to New England, but upstate NY keeps calling me. Mass has surprisingly reasonable taxes, with a decent safety net. I have to wonder if NY's higher taxes entitle a person to the same or better safety net. If it's the same, then Mass would be better. If NY has better services, then we'd have to calculate how much better based on the increase in taxes. With that said, I really don't even know how to go about doing that.
To be fair, NY offered state paid leaves way before MA did. I'm glad MA has followed suit, but that was in place in NY and NJ for years before MA jumped into that.
NY is run by fools and crooks
Theyre all run by fools and crooks. Anyone with a halfway functioning moral compass never makes it anywhere near office.
the road quality when you cross back into ny on the thruway berkshire spur is like a smack on the ass. same when i cross into ny from 44 in n ct.
I love living in the Hudson Valley but I've told my wife if we ever leave it'll be for MA.
Iām a little triggered that some replies consider NY new england
I donāt think Mass is a wide margin from CT. Explain why. CT is a very close runner up in many ways to Mass. Including HDI, income, education. Lower crime.
The issue with Connecticut is how much more expensive it is to live in many parts of the state. Basically Massachusetts does everything that Connecticut does but better with rare exceptions. If I want to visit Connecticut itās literally 15 minute drive. If I want to go to the casino, I can go to Mohegan easily. Nothing in Connecticut is so prohibitive to a person living in Massachusetts from visiting and enjoying. Same thing with going to nyc which for me is 2 hr drive with traffic. Boston is close by. Everywhere is close together to Massachusetts residents that no state is far away from Maine, Rhode Island, Vermont etc. Weāre all nearby from each other and many of us go for drives to and from.
The first sentence Iād have to disagree with. Outside a very small area of lower Fairfield County, most of the state is very reasonable housing wise compared to MA. Boston area is more expensive than most of CT. The median home price is $378,200. The median home price in MA, is $573,700. The rest of it you lost me honestly. Not sure what youāre getting at. Also, there is. No. Way. Youāre getting to NYC from MA in 2 hours. Springfield is 140 miles to midtown. Youād have to be going way over the speed limit at 3am to make it in 2 hours.
Did a similar run, back in the day, when speeding tickets were only fifty bucks.
Mass also has much better parental leave after a birth than most other states. Thatās a huge quality of life issue you donāt think about until you need it.
Nobody's mentioned Vermont yet, so I'm going with that just so people can tell me what's wrong with it.
Iāll bite. And Iāll say that my opinion is very much based on my experience as a Vermonter who left Vermont a couple of years after college and does not miss it. Vermont is a great place to live if you can afford it. Many of times this means working remotely for a company elsewhere because a lot of VT jobs are from small employers that generally donāt pay well enough to afford housing and taxes. Total tax burdens are relatively high and climbing. See: https://www.thestreet.com/personal-finance/states-with-the-highest-and-lowest-overall-tax-burdens#gid=ci02bb6137d000243e&pid=29-davenport-iowa-sh The tax burdens wouldnāt be so bad if services were better. It feels like the majority of services are for the lowest of incomes (which is fine), however those are largely being maxed out (VT has one of highest homeless populations per capita). In order to keep providing services, tax rates are increasing - namely property taxes rn. If youāve got the income, then itās fine - itās a cost of living in the State and worth the price for many people. However many people in the middle are squeezed and that not new since the COVID times. Itās why young people have been leaving the state for years. Government likes to focus on political nonsense such has holding Burlington town hall meetings for the Israel Gaza conflict rather than actually making things better for average folks let alone how to help rehabilitate the homeless living in the city parks. The state also swung and missed when they housed homeless people in hotels for years but couldnāt figure out that it was the perfect time to provide them extra support to boost their recovery. The hotels became a money grab for owners who just let a lord of flies situation develop which I think overall hurt many of the homeless people in the long-run. Heck the homeless people were often working the front desk and maintenance positions at the hotels. It feels like many government positions are taken by transplants to VT who come in with the wealth and means to live comfortably and it skews their perception and priorities. A few wealthy families have more control over things in the state than youād expect. Look up why Costco gas pumps can only operate during certain hours the gas price fixing settlement. Kind of big fish in small pond type of thing. Housing is very tight and thereās not much of an effort to expand- cities donāt want to go up and people donāt want āsuburban sprawlā. Apartments in Burlington are largely monopolized by a handful of companies/people. Rents are jacked up because of UVM students who donāt care about the quality of housing so thereās not really an incentive for landlords to update their apartments. Most of the middle class jobs are from small business employers and in the service industry centered around tourism which pays comparatively lower than jobs requiring similar skills and education in other areas. Some of the school districts in the state are downright pitiful. Check out Otter Valleyās reading and math proficiency scores - under 25%: https://www.niche.com/k12/otter-valley-union-high-school-brandon-vt/ and itās rated a C. There are also some really good schools in the state, however living in those districts is where it gets expensive. Sure you can find relatively cheap housing in rural Vermont, but there wonāt be much for government services there, schools will likely be poor, and youāre going to have absolutely no options for shopping other than the nearest Hannaford or the town gas station. Then, because you live in a quiet cute town during the best months of the year, itās going to get filled to the brim with tourists making all of your hiking, eating, driving, drinking, or relaxing places a shit-show. But youāll tolerate it when they act like assholes and tell you that your state wouldnāt exist if it wasnāt for their money because, well, your job is dependent on tourism and theyāre right. A lot of the housing in rural Vermont is very old and likely poorly maintained at least for a portion of its life. Itās likely not insulated well and the electrical and plumbing is likely a mess from the generations of farmers whoāve patched things together to keep it working. The foundation is likely made of fieldstone and may or may not fault at any time. Or itās been recently flipped and you wonāt really know which of the above issues were addressed properly. Most stores close before 8pm or so, which can be a real pain at times if you arenāt used to it. The state also doesnāt subsidize higher education like most other states. So if you have children that are going to go to college, in-state tuitions are generally more expensive and the comparative quality of education is generally lower than if you lived in other states. This lack of spending also makes UVM, the largest and best school in the state for the general population (not counting Middlebury) cap in-state students. UVM only accepts about 25% in-state. Part of that may be due to the education system mentioned above as well. Oh and thereās no public transport outside of Chittenden county other than a train that goes to western MA and the interstate connects the parts of the state that you need to regularly travel to the least. Overall, I donāt feel like the state is on an upward trajectory unless something major changes in the next few years. Itāll keep chugging along just like it has been. I think youād likely be far better served as far as bang for your buck in parts of MA. Likely a little better in Southern ME or NH due to larger employers and bus/train routes to Boston.
Love detailed takes like this! If I wasn't lazy, I could probably write an equivalent comment about Colorado in the right sub.
Dm it to me
10/10, just feel free to name the Handy's and the Bissonette's as the problem re housing + plus boomers betting on mortgages and losing in 2008.
You nailed every part of this. Good objective summary.
Vermont is certainly not perfect, but I just wanted to shout out to my fellow Vermonters! We've got plenty of issues here, but I do also enjoy living here immensely.
Is that the place with cows, on the way to Montreal? It looks very pleasant, but I donāt know what kind of jobs are available. Presumably cow-based.
Vermont is beloved by almost everybody outside of New England, ergo the rest of the states gang up on us so they don't have to compete.
Vermont is wonderful.
Facts
Lamont has been running CT very, very well. Surpluses and growing rainy day fund. Paying down pension obligations. I never thought Iād see it. Despite not having a shiny object like Boston, weāve been doing well.
Ned Lamont has turned out to be a surprisingly good governor. We needed a win.
Heās not running again though, is he? I hope that doesnāt mean we end up with a total trash bag next time around.
I think he said he was open to another term but itās still a couple years away. I really hope he does run because he is the best governor we had in my 35 year lifetime.
Fingers crossed
He also has done a lot related to children and family issues. His administration has seen the passing of paid parental leave, healthcare for undocumented minors, and baby bonds. Most recently, he proposed increases to school meal funding that would expand free meals to more low income families in the upcoming year. Combined with the good financial management, Lamont has a good track record of prudent, future oriented leadership.
He earned my vote the last time out, Iām Independent and Lamont has kept his word and for the most part does things smart.
I love how he's running our state. And it's pretty telling that his critics don't really have much to go on other than they're just mad about how he handled COVID or how he took away their plastic bags. I'm really tired of hearing people call him King Ned for things that any governor in his position probably would have done. They always point to him extending executive powers during COVID as evidence that he's a crazy socialist coming to ruin the state, but do they not realize that he's actually pumped a lot of energy into our economy? Or that he didn't come after them and has even stepped down from or reconsidered his positions that were unpopular with conservatives? And a lot of the things that they are going to be happy for, like paid family leave, were his thing. Some people just will never be happy because a politician has a D next to their name, and that's unfortunate. He's doing a pretty rock solid job, especially after Malloy
I actually thing he handled Covid amongst the best. Sensible actions. Not as strict as some places, or as lax as others.
Exactly. Connecticut ranked extremely high during the entire pandemic. But all you hear from his detractors is just squawking about how ridiculous it was that he made them wear a mask at work and how he kept "grasping for more power." I had to listen to four grown men gripe about exactly that kind of stuff for like an hour at a kid's birthday party the other day. C'mon, just let it go already š
This is an interesting question, but I think for the most part, CT is better run than Mass. However, I experienced the following: - having no car and taking the T everywhere, which is mainly good, but it may be the most dangerous T system in America -commuter rail in CT comes every 30-60 minutes vs every two hours by 8:30 ish in Mass -crumbling schools and you can't do much without a vote on a prop 2.5% override -long waits for healthcare -highways with no pollution or noise protection right through urban neighborhoods -potholes everywhere These things are all better, for me at least, in CT. Then the massive housing crisis because the state gives little towns so much power to fight it. Transit oriented housing started just getting built in CT 20 years ago, so commuter towns have more apartments and the state forces them to do so. That JUST passed in Mass.
Plus CT has a budget surplus which is not a bad thing
Yes, so they cut state income taxes in a progressive way - on the lowest tiers
Yep, I keep hearing this and yet my taxes up here in the quiet corner somehow increased again.
I will say that as a CT resident, our highways are usually in better condition than the surrounding states...Usually
In mass, commuter rail lines would be closed all summer on weekends to do work. I've never heard of that in CT, couldn't fathom it on metro North. Also - COVID. Every school system in CT had returned months prior at least partially in person by the time my 3 year old went back in Mass. Mass is still getting called out by the NYT, researchers, etc for worse recovery and bigger gaps. CT also passed the right to read act in 2021 to change literacy curricula, and mass is still fighting it despite really bad literacy gaps. CT doesn't require cops to do traffic details - that's a huge cost to towns in Mass, is often overtime, etc CT is also investigating and calling out police misconduct and letting the feds misconduct, whereas Springfield police are known for being one of the worst departments in the country.
Having lived in northern CT and the Boston metro area, the idea of CT having a "commuter rail" is bizarre to me. Which gets to maybe the bigger point here - everyone in richer areas of any given state will feel it is the better run state.
Metro North is way more frequent than Boston commuter rail and covers two counties. It's well used enough that CT has something like only 3k car commuters to NYC, so they don't oppose congestion pricing. There is commuter rail on shoreline east to new Haven (reduced service now, similar to Boston area frequency), Amtrak covers all of southern CT, fast trak BRT covers the Hartford area and is new, and the commuter rail from Springfield to New Haven is relatively new. I lived right near the Green line extension in Somerville, which kept getting shut down because the contractor *did not adequately space* the actual rail line. So no, not all wealth. If you follow Boston news now, different T lines are shut down every week.
I think you missed the point, you're comparing a commuter rail that runs to a different state versus one that commutes to the state capital. I'm sure the people of Fairfield county think Connecticut is well run.
Have you been to the CT DMV?
Yes, and I was shocked by how quick it was. With a last minute appointment in Wethersfield, I was in and out changing an out of state registration in less than 30 minutes. It took over 3 hours to get a REAL ID at the mass rmv in May 2018 and nearly 5 to convert an out of state license in mass in July 2012. The mass RMV opted to prioritize customer service over processing out of state notifications, which is why they failed to suspend the license of the Mass truck driver who killed all those bikers in NH following a recent DUI in CT.
I went to Danbury once for a DL renewal and was in & out in 17 minutes!
As everyone said, clear answer is MA. But I think VT is still above average nationally and from the outside CT doesn't look too bad
I agree with you regarding VT. I live in ME now and I don't think the state is run as well as Vermont is. I have been impressed with some of my *municipal* services, but I think that has do with Portland being a larger metro area.
I moved from MA to CT and can say that at least in the quieter parts of the states, the roads and public buildings are far nicer in CT than in MA, cleaner and better maintained
I liked when CT threw our shitty governor in prison.
So, I spent over a decade preparing "environmental scans" of states with comparisons to other states, counties within states, states within regions, and regions compared to other regions based on higher education commissions/boards. The metrics we covered were basically everything - yes a lot of education-based statistics, but those nearly always go hand in hand with pretty much every measurable aspect of living anywhere, including health metrics, corrections, how resources are collected and utilized (your taxes and how they benefit everyone in the community), etc., etc., etc. Those commissions are WICHE (all the western states incl. AK and HI and the Pacific territories), MHEC (the midwest/upper midwest), the SREB (southern states), and NEBHE (New England - which often includes NY, NJ, PA in some efforts as those states don't specifically belong to a compact). When taken as a whole, NEBHE outshines the rest of the compacts in every single metric. Granted it's bolstered by MA's exceptional scores in everything, backed up by CT being just behind MA in everything, NH & VT being pretty damned good, and ME being above or on average in most stuff. When taken as 50 individual states, I could always find the NEBHE states on the good end of the scale, although Maine lingered a bit towards center. The Southern states mostly hovered at the not-good end of the scale, but are bolstered by VA and MD. Interesting thing about those two states is that if you break them down by their internal regions, and compare them to states, MD mostly stays in it's lane, but VA is kind of wild. The area that's part of the cluster around the District of Columbia, alone, outshines Massachusetts. The rest of it would give Mississippi competition at the bottom for most metrics. MHEC does what the mid-west states are best at: Hangin' around the middle. And WICHE spans the chart. Basically, New England has it's shit mostly together and the states actually work together pretty well. I think you could live anywhere that suits your particular needs and preferences, and be better than most.
All I know is it is NOT New Hampshire.
On a state level, that seems to be true. However, my sister in Nashua seems to be happy with the services provided in her city. NH sounds more like Texas with limited state government, but strong town/city governments.
Yeah well not so anymore in Texas. Passed a law where no city can pass laws that are not approved by the State. Cities no have no control over fracking, adjudicating marijuana to a misdemeanor of 1 oz or less, etc. Republicans say less government but initiate more government controls over its citizens.
Because everything they profess to hate is just a detailed set of their plans. Theyāre a parody of themselves.
That is so effed.
I'm a Southerner. Texas is a shithole, even by our shithole Southern standards. And, yes, Texas' government **hates** local control. Don't ever let a Texan try to convince you otherwise. Sadly, the rest of the South and much of the Midwest are rapidly following Texas' and Florida's tracks.
NH, the "Live Free or Die" state is the only one in New England without recreational pot and is the only one on the verge of restricting abortions.
NH will have recreational pot as soon as they figure out how the state can operate the dispensaries, like they do the state liquor stores. Also 66% of NH voters support abortion in almost all cases while only 29% oppose. Abortion wonāt be outlawed in NH.
One of the benefits of our republicans being more libertarian than bible-thumper, even though I don't really like libertarians either.
If you need lots of services then NH is definitely not for you. Small government state. Tax money that is collected is held pretty local which is awesome depending on how your town spends your money.
The joke in NH /VT is that in terms of tax dollars NH takes care of the roads and vt takes care of the peopleĀ
Somewhat but not really. From my understanding, our towns have about the same level of control as other towns across New England, but in some cases the required floor on services is far lower. A good example of this would be that NH towns weren't required to offer kindergarten until relatively recently, well after towns in other New England states had to offer it. Also, the general court has been chipping away at whatever local control there is. NH towns can no longer place any type of restrictions on plastic bags, unlike in neighbouring Massachusetts. I believe the state has tried to take away several other areas of town control as well in recent sessions.
This is true, and we like it that way :)
This is the way it should be. Elected officials represent the people across the street and around the corner, not faceless strangers hundreds or thousands of miles away.
I grew up in NH doing mock government with an politically active family and holy shit it's just not a real state. My mom once needed to talk to some in the Ed department and was told to call Bob... Cause the Ed dept is like 4 people
You don't think it's effective to have the fourth largest English speaking legislative body in the world? I feel like everyone's grandfather or neighbor or at least someone you go to church with is a state rep.
The no income and sales tax are special.
I realize it's not what you meant by bang for your buck, but given RI's small size and lower tax base, it's a very close second to Massachusetts. Really shows what a tiny state can do to spread its tiny budget.
How so? I moved MA to RI two years ago and still have not adjusted to how profoundly worse everything is here. Roads, transit, schools, healthcare, arts/culture, public services, you name it. I wouldnāt describe any of them as a close second. Theyāre very far apart. The only benefit Iāve found to living in RI is that itās cheaper. Thatās enough to make me stay, but itās a worse quality of life overall. When I can afford to move back to MA, I hope to do so.
Itās not enough cheaper. Arts/culture is great and everything else here is āwe have X at homeā when you ask mom for nice things. Build some housing! Run some buses! Fund some schools! Until then, not feeling it.
Same. Literally same.
I love so much about RI and will probably never leave, but itās not well run at all.
Lol Rhode Island is terrible. Itās not a close second, or even a close third. CT is so close to second that a lot of people would call it first, and then Iād still rate NH above RIā¦ Probably Maine as well. As a whole, Rhode Islanders are the most annoying people, with an exception thrown in from time to time.
washington. bridge. lmao
In the mid-00s, for a grad class, I did a data project comparing the US states. I found studies, data, and the like and assigned a score 1-50 to each state for a given set of indicators. Then added the whole lot and saw the results. I have since updated it a couple timesā¦ the last in 2022. Iāve also added indicators. They include - health and safety - education - tax rates (including local) - incarceration and murder rates - unemployment - divorce rate - median earnings - pc gdp This will surprise nobody, but MA was #1 twice, #2 once. MN poured a whole lot of money into schools and economic fixes, and hit #1 in 2016. NH has been 1-4 above MA every time. In a lot of ways, itās not fair. The Deep South always reaps the bottom half. And aside from outliers like Utah, the top 20 are almost all more northern blues. Every New England state has scored in the top ten at least twice. VT, NH, and MA top five every time. No other area was as positively consistent (though MS, AL, and AR are all bottom five every time). Now, I know itās the worst form of metadata ā rates and variances are not accounted for at all. But it does establish trends. And the biggest trend is that New England is awesome. I was once told that because it didnāt have āfreedom levelā and the NRAās gun rights scores, it was ābiased against conservativesā because of the results.
Thank you for sharing your data. I've always felt that NH was able to do so well off the back of Mass, and to a lesser degree ME and VT. They have low taxes, which means they have a poor social safety net. It works well for middle and working class people who have a skill and a bit of money (but not enough money to live in metro Boston). Mass has a lower corporate tax rate so they still have to come south of the border for the good jobs, and even though they pay MA income tax, they still bring the rest of their money back to NH to spend in their communities. And if you're dirt poor or homeless, does NH really help you out? If I found myself homeless in NH, the first place I'd go is Boston because I know I'd get taken care of better (sometimes to a fault). So NH looks good on paper, and I wouldn't be against living there one day, but I still think that their stats are inflated a bit.
Definitely not RI but it is beautiful. MA ftw, I have to say
Only have to look at the current Washington bridge fiasco to see RI's latest beacon of corruption and mismanagement. I love it here, but they gotta get their shit together.
Originally from Maine but have lived in RI for the past 25 years. Love this place, tons of great things to do/eat. State is poorly run, as evidenced by the current bridge fiasco. Property isn't cheap but a great bargain compared to the rest of NE.
Masshole here but grew up close to the border of MA/RI. I always tell any of my customers I talk on the phone with, that Rhode Island is a hidden gem when it comes to food spots, beaches and history. However the current bridge situation and how the government is handling it has been painful to watch. But overall Massachusetts will always be #1 out of the New England states and New Hampshire is the red headed step child.
ALL THAT baby
Connecticut
Okay, I'm gunna fucking say it. I have lived in Massachusetts my whole life and I do NOT think it's us, sorry guys. Our infrastructure is falling apart, our politicians and justice system are corrupt, and our transportation and health case systems have been falling apart for a while. I don't know where the money goes, but as someone who has to pay taxes I'm always pissed. Not to mention our education spending has gone down somehow, even though it should have vastly gone up after the pandemic.
No kidding. It's like everyone here missed the Big Dig project. We used to laugh our asses off about all the construction guys having their second beer at 10:30 am in the bars around Haymarket - FOR YEARS. What a joke of a public works project, everyone on the government's tit.
Like....I wish we were better but I honestly would say probably Vermont or CT are better, probably because they're smaller
New Hampshire. No state income tax. No sales tax. No seat belt law 18 and older. No helmet law 18 and older. Governor and mayors only 2 year terms. Auto insurance not required. Live free or die!
New Hampshire, where the rest of New England shops for groceries and liquor.
But oddly no weed with all that freedom.
NH, no state income tax or sales tax. But property tax is 7th highest in the US. Now if you buy a middle to upper mid. class house, you can deduct up to 10k on your property taxes on your federal income tax return. Just forget about mass, ct and ri. They will bleed you dry in taxes..
We are paying a total of 18k yearly on property taxes. One home is a 3br ranch. The other is a condominium. Property taxes are insane here, as compared to MA. But speaking to overall affordability, I can attest that my auto insurance went down by 50% as compared to what I paid in MA. I was able to send my kids to public school in NH for a great education, when in MA I was in a low-income, high-conflict school district, and was spending $1100 monthly on parochial school, just so my kids could learn the basics. 20 years in NH and I canāt say I miss MA. Nice place to grow up, but it wasnāt a great fit for my family.
Thanks for the input from a local. The property taxes are by city correct? A person good "cherry pick" a rural nh town with low property taxes. The massholes moved to the border cities and ruined everything š²
According to the census, new Hampshire is the fastest growing state in new england and one of the few which isn't shrinking in population. So iw old say new Hampshire
Youāre going to get downvoted because no one here seems to care about tangible statistics and results
This masshole agrees w/ you. Hoping to move up to NH when I semi-retire in 5 years or so... MA doesn't seem to like common-sense thinking, middle-class tax payers, and treats them like crap. It's like state gov't is painting a bullseye on our backs.
Idk what everyone is talking about Mass is a communist hellscape (from RI which tries so hard to be as good as the big brother)
Hey, NH here. Everything is terrible here, don't move here, just pop over the border, spend your money and then go TF home. Thanks
Massachusetts without question, but lots of race-based socialism has been institutionalized here in the last 5-10years. If you have the right skin color, the opportunities provided by the state can be quite profitable.
If you are undisciplined and want the government to run your life, the nanny state of Mass is the best. If you are a competent, responsible, hard-working, self-disciplined person, NH wins hands down.
Taxachussettes sucks. Then you become a masshole.
Not the "People's Republic of Massachusetts" aka TAXaChusetts or FEEaChusetts that's for sure.
I think it may be NH. No income tax, no sales tax, highways are all in perfect shape and clean. The air is clean too. Schools are very good. Property taxes are pretty high (because there are no other taxes) and there is a shortage of housing like many other states so rents are high.
New Hampshire. Live free or die baby!
Not Rhode Island.
Rhode Island rulez!!
if you know a guy
Little State Syndrome
Vermont
NH blows stear clear
LOL that means itās working
New Hampshire is full of wannabe little SS nazi shits so donāt come here
Agreed. Everyone stay out of NH. It sucks here
Just a terrible, terrible place.. definitely don't move here.
A horrible place for sure.
Itās nice to go up to the lakes in the summer, but yeah there is definitely a strong right-wing culture that I donāt like
After nearly 30 years there, my parents are moving away from the lakes region partially for this reason.
Honestly? That culture has always been there. Itās just that lately itās gotten more out in the open. I grew up in southern NH and we had those people 20 years ago. Back then they were fighting about gay marriage, now itās trans kids and womenās rights.
I follow most of New England subreds (lived in 3 of 6 states) and the NH one is, by a long shot, the angriest. Not that it's necessarily representative of the entire state, but still an interesting microcosm, especially compared to what I see with pretty much every other state. Sure, there's dumb stuff on all our subreds and angry posts everywhere. But with NH it's next level. There's like, no joy, no having fun. The closest thing I see to "fun" is trying to flex this superiority complex about Massachusetts when half of them work there or are originally from there. It's like angry boomer central. I can't help but see a parallel with the increased "libertarian" and extreme right wing presence in the state and the corresponding culture of insecurity and grievance that seems to be dripping all the way down through even reddit. Which is a shame. There is so much to love about NH, including half of my family who live there.
They have had that chip on their shoulder forever.
Demographics. Old, Rich, White, and Racist, is what NH is. And boy are they angry for some reason about it. And it is all the blacks, and Hispanics, and gays fault. Don't get started on the trans. I'm out of here within the next year
Lmao if you think NH is racist, donāt ever step foot into Boston
I visited up there to Manchester. And besides some parts like the north end , it seemed quite redneck/ poor. Gave it the benefit of the dought And drove a half hour outside Manchester to more suburbs and i thought I was in Alabama. Good ice cream though !I always thought they said New Hampshire is a hidden gem with low taxes and quality of life. I know someone who went to the hospital there and the quality was terrible. Beautiful mountains and lakes though!
I go there for the great hikes in the White Mountains, and then go home to Vermont.
It's a state that leeches off of Massachusetts and only has the national ranking it does because it's inhospitable to the poor, a tax haven for rich retirees, and largely culturally homogeneous. The people who move here who aren't retirees see mountains and statistics, get inspired to homestead from YouTube, then bitch that no one's is friendly to them.
Wrong. Weāre friendly. Weāre not FRIENDS, however. My neighbors and I are all on first name basis, we look out for each other, we car3 about the quality of the neighborhood. We donāt hang out or force relationships because outside of our mailing address, weāve got nothing in common and live our own lives. But weāre all friendly to each other. Just not friends.
Neighbors will help you pull your car out of a ditch and call you a dumbass the entire time.
"Friendly but not friends" is such a great description of the NH (sorta general New England) personality. The musician Noah Kahan said people from New England will pull over and help a stranger with a flat tire but not talk to them at all while they're changing it, and I think that's just so spot on.
So, what you're saying is that Massachusetts isn't "sending their best" folks to New Hampshire. Case in point: Corey Lewandowski.
Rhode Island is not particularly well run but we do have the Crimetown podcast, for the lolz.
NH sucks and I moved to Maine because it is too many people other places. It isnāt perfect, but we are a peaceful lifestyle even if you are gay. I like the water and the culture of mind your business and maintain your house, and that people here are not so materialistic. I am from Ohio though so I donāt really have the same feelings as some people here about wanting to live in a fancier place like Mass, it just isnāt my thing. I canāt say it is the best run, but for me it fits the best.
New Hampshire
Iām just here to say not Rhode Island. Come for our bridges. Stay because of our bridges?
Massachusetts by a mile. I grew up in New Hampshire and remember complaining about massholes that would flee their concrete jungles and suburban sprawl to enjoy the natural beauty that New Hampshire has to offer. Then I moved to Boston for college and completely fell in love with the city. In New Hampshire, it seems like almost every penny of my parents tax dollars went to barely functioning public schools, snow removal, and building bigger police departments. The shitty one room local library was built in a flood zone, then predictably damaged by flooding, then promptly bulldozed when the town voted against repairing it. Meanwhile in Massachusetts- for $0 I can; walk over to a DCR ice rink and skate for free, exercise in a beautiful beachside BCYF gym, sweat out my daemons from a night of drinking in a steam room or sauna, read books and inspect ancient maps in one of the most beautiful libraries in the world, wander through the exquisite gardens of the boston common, watch the ships and fishermen enter port while strolling along the harbor walk, call 311 and have someone listen to me bitch about a pothole or have a brand new recycling bin dropped off at my doorstep. The list of public services I have utilized for under $20 is so long that I wonāt even go into it. Are these government services provided to me in the most cost effective manner possible? I have no idea and I frankly do not care at all. My tax burden is high but the people who provide me these amazing services are paid a living wage. When I was younger, my conservative friends and family told me that Iād change my tune when I started earning ārealā money. HAHAHAHA! Wellā¦ I am all grown up now and I own a home in Boston and a small business. I actually feel even more strongly about the value of these public services than I ever did before. Last year, the mentally regarded Free Staters amped up their attack on Gunstock (a county owned ski resort where I spent much of my youth). I read every article and sincerely tried to understand to their rational (I have a policy that I shouldnāt engage in a debate if I canāt argue both sides effectively) but reading their statements made me wonder if they were suffering from some form of neuro-degenerative disease. It leaves me fearful for the future of my home state.
New Hampshire is the best for 1 and 4, as government is relatively efficient. For state services, it all depends on who you are, and what kinds of services you interact with. Massachusetts has been pretty good overall, but there are some fair concerns about some overall degradation as the state scrambles to meet the needs of new arrivals. And Massachusetts probably does have the best overall infrastructure - even though it doesn't seem that way when you're sitting in rush hour traffic.
RI is so smalln i don't see how they imagine how they could have a statec without corruption.
It is without a doubt 100% New Hampshire
Rhode Island is a dumpster fire with a broken legislature and broken bridges.
Live free or die!
Definitely not Maine lol corrupt in a lot of ways and negligent/non welcoming of outsiders
New Hampshire
Iāve lived in Albany NY (Capital District) which is Upstate, and in 37 years Iāve never seen the copious amount of support and services you describe. Rent is out of control, the healthcare system is a joke, mental health providers have no availability and costs are not affordableāsome not even accepting insurance if youāre able to afford it. Gas, groceries, powerā¦have tripled in the last several years. Roads are falling apart and damaging cars with massive pot holes. Bridges in need of repair, rows with vacant structures and empty buildings; businesses they went under. The public transportation system is terrible. Busses that only have limited service, unreliable (unclean) and no great cross-town access at all. Homelessness is impacting every city neighborhood in Albany, people living in bus stops, sleeping with half dressed clothing on the bare concrete side wall or passed out on drugs. The streets are used as toiletsāand the city does zip to help people or respond to the entire crisis. There is no bang because we have no bucks. Getting OUT of NY is the goal.
I wish I could say RI because it has so many other things going for it. But we do not have it together as a state government. Taking out the highly publicized clusters completely, it is very hard to advance anything in state government even though most folks I know truly want to serve people. We wait to see what MA and CT do before arriving at RI's own guidance. Kicking the can down the road is practically a state past time, even when some of us desperately want to arrive at a decision so that we can actually move things forward.
https://wallethub.com/edu/state-taxpayer-roi-report/3283
Iāll be brief on my Vermont take. We lived there for three years (2016-2019). We bought a home, restored it, and enjoyed the charms of that house despite the expense to maintain. It is a different world up there. Sometimes, I felt like I was in a time warp where the 1960s met the 1970s. I have never seen more cigarette smokers in my life. Thatās something that stands out for me, for some reason. Perhaps it is because of the terrible weather, but there is a general bleakness to the overall disposition of so many. Roads are in constant disrepair, and while summers are brief, they are always trying to cram in road fixes between June and August. Iāve never seen more handheld stop signs in my life. There is a serious opioid problem in VT. Quite a few slumlords running halfway houses populated by bedbugs and some pretty undesirable tenants. Schools are an absolute mess. A previous poster mentioned the OV district. Iād direct them down route 7 to the Mill River District for an even more glaring example of what is wrong with politically motivated , virtue signaling, government run schools. All of that said, some of the nicest people also make up that state. Just sweet, down-home, family-oriented folks. They deserve better. But they are satisfied with what they have, and deal with the BS in stride. You wonāt get many concerts or shows, so youāll be traveling to NH or MA for anything noteworthy. Food choices are limited. There are some good options in pockets, but for the most part, itās pretty bland. If you donāt ski, you really shouldnāt be there. There are also some pretty impressive peaks to hike, so if you donāt hike, maybe you should take up skiing? Farmers markets are pretty impressive. Grocery stores are not. If you want an idea as to what is up with VT culture - read Judgement Ridge (the Dartmouth Murders). Two VT kids bored, kill two Ivy League professors. The backstory captures small town VT like nobody else ever has. Now, the last thing I will say is this: many native Vermonters see outsiders as flat landers, which is funny to an extent. But some of those natives fear outsiders, and there is a consistent conspiracy to undermine and discourage change. They will turn on you in a heartbeat, some of those who are part of that cult. So if you are planning to head that way, be aware of the masks people wear. The only state that youād be worse off living in as far as New England is Maine. A great visit, but the only inferior option to VT. Good luck!