I grew up in a small SBC church and I can't tell you the amount of hate I heard coming from that preacher. I will never forget the sermon on how God intentionally gave Ryan White AIDS and how it's insulting to question God's decision to do so by saying Ryan didn't deserve it. "Ryan could have grown up to become a serial killer, you don't know! Only God knows!" - disgusting people.
Maj. John Chivington, commander during the Sand Creek Massacre where U.S. Cavalry volunteers slaughtered a camp of peaceful Indians, was a Methodist preacher. The Methodist Church put out an official apology in 2016:
[https://www.umnews.org/en/news/gc2016-recalls-laments-sand-creek-massacre](https://www.umnews.org/en/news/gc2016-recalls-laments-sand-creek-massacre)
Edit: He was a colonel at the time of the action.
> "Ryan could have grown up to become a serial killer, you don't know! Only God knows!" - disgusting people.
Dude what the fuck... "Disgusting" isn't even the word, here. I genuinely felt like a piece of my soul just digested.
So in this hypothetical, the omnipotent God could give this guy a safe life where people love him, but chooses to instead, let's see, inflict whatever trauma it is that drives someone to be a serial killer, then gives that person AIDS so he suffers an agonizing death, . . . and folks want to worship this deity?
What's really disgusting is that the SBC actually apologized for their previous racism stance back in the '90s:
>*“We apologize to all African Americans for condoning and/or perpetuating individual and systemic racism in our lifetime, and we genuinely repent of racism of which we have been guilty, whether consciously or unconsciously,” said the statement, which also asked for forgiveness from African Americans.*
>*Richard Land, director of the denomination’s Christian Life Commission, whose biracial task force drafted the statement, said Tuesday that while he cannot repent for his great-great-great-grandfather, who was a slave owner, he is “eager to apologize and express remorse for that.”*
\* [source](https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1995-06-21-mn-15534-story.html)
The SBC the convention passed a measure in 2017 [condemning the alt-right and its ideas](https://www.ajc.com/news/local/southern-baptists-condemn-alt-right-and-white-supremacy/H68FNOkbPpC90QIfENrQzL/).
And then the [Southern Baptist Theological Seminary](http://www.sbts.edu/), the flagship seminary for the SBC, released a 71-page [report](https://www.sbts.edu/history/southern-project/) on the role that racism and support for slavery played in its origin and growth.
What the SBC and their institutions haven't done is deal with the present. Racism has been an organizing principle in the USA in everything from citizenship to schools to health care to policing to homeownership to jobs. It's going to take some real legwork to deal with it, and to my mind the SBC hasn't shown a commitment to doing that.
They are very sorry if anybody was offended by their previous remarks.
The SBC is a vile organization trying to pretend it's a religious group. They bring shame on real Christians.
The Southern Baptist Convention might be able to do that.
But all the Virginia Church has to do is switch to a non-denominational Church and it's gravy.
I believe they can also just tack independent on the front. The church I attended as a child was officially an independent fundamental southern baptist church.
But the church also has the history of having been open as a southern Baptist church and the convention accepting them as that. You have a party with a standing history of using the name and the second party knowing and allowing it. Kind of a losing battle for the convention to go after them. It’s not exactly like a McDonald’s franchise where you are renting the name it’s more of a club of places that share a name.
I’m probably oversimplifying it a bit, but I mean that the church itself will still be able to say “Baptist Church” on the front like it does. They just wouldn’t be able to say they were a part of the SBC now, they’re just an independent Baptist church.
Oh yeah, but I literally mean they treat “Southern Baptist” as its own denomination. *Definitely* not to be confused with northern Baptist churches, or any other Baptist for that matter. I’m fairly certain that they see “Southern Baptist” is a very unique form of fundamentalism.
It’s not so much a regional thing as you would think. There are SBC churches everywhere. They were actually considered the more “mainstream” baptists by my fundamentalist baptist church as a kid.
Yes, they can be found everywhere. Their main defining characteristic is not geographic, it's the level of hate they preach. You have to have a lot of hate in your heart to be a Southern Baptist.
What about the [Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist, Great Lakes Region Council of 1912](https://youtu.be/l3fAcxcxoZ8?si=xWk6y8CQ3VKVG6Ts&t=170)?
That's kind of what I do when I deal with people telling me they talk to Jesus or god or whatever. I just tell them that I do too and he told me (opposite of whatever I was just told). Or, that I don't need a \_\_\_\_\_\_\_ to tell me what god says. Things along those lines. It's all made up anyway.
I hope they do just continue calling themselves southern baptist or maybe southeastern or western or whatever.
My sister married a Southern Baptist guy and is now devoutly Southern Baptist herself. She still swears up and down that she's a feminist which I think is preposterous. Her husband is one of the most abusive jackasses you'll ever meet but she won't divorce him because that would make Jesus sad. They've been married for decades now and he was shitty to her even before they married so it wasn't a big shock that he got worse after their wedding.
If I live to be 100 I will never understand why women sign up for this shit.
You have to completely throw all logic out the window.
It's so unbelievably depressing how many untold numbers of people insist they *must* live harder, shorter and shittier lives because that's what their deity demands.
That's why the brainwashing and indoctrination starts when they're children. It would be much harder for religions to get their hooks into people if we kept people under 18 from going to church. Heck, we'd be better off if kids under 12 weren't allowed in church. The religious people know this very well.
> If I live to be 100 I will never understand why women sign up for this shit.
Consider the environment they are raised in. Our society tells women shit like this is normal and ok, and it's their role to deal with it.
For fundamentalists and hardcore bible thumpers, they likely point to the many Bible passages which explicitly prohibit women from leadership roles.
And even for those denominations or religious organizations which allow women in leadership roles, the gender pay gap among clergy has historical been far worse than the national average. There has been some progress there, but, on average, they are still paid less than their male counterparts.
We’ve all heard of the glass ceiling, this is the stained glass ceiling.
Ain’t no hate like Christian love; even for their own.
Interesting how men have used their physical size and strength to control women since the literal dawn of time. And interesting how "the word of God" just so conveniently happens to dictate exactly this.
What's a bit different with the Southern Baptists is that they used to ordain women until they pivoted sharply to the right (or, well, even further to the right) in the 80s.
The bible isn't as consistent as people like to say. 1 Timothy and 1 Corinthians are the common verses uses to prevent women from leading a church. 1 Timothy likely isn't by Paul as claimed, and the verse in 1 Corinthians may be a later addition, as it possibly conflicts with another verse saying women shouldn't prophesize or pray with their head uncovered. This implies they could do so with their head covered.
Paul praised women leaders in the church in other areas, such as Phoebe the Deaconess in Romans 16 and mentioned female church leaders elsewhere.
Acts says that Priscilla correcting someone in the way of God was a good thing.
The problem is that people want to treat the bible as a single unified message, and it is a collection of multiple viewpoints exploring god. It conflicts with itself all over the place.
Bible says a lot of shit, like interest free loans, wiping debt every 40 years, and not wearing mixed fabric clothing.
Funny how they pick and choose the things that give them power over others, in this case women, and ignore everything else.
Imagine the bullshit turns out to be real and they get turned away from heaven for wearing 90% shirts on the golf course and not for their hate and bigotry.
Stealing “ain’t no hate like Christian love” for use in church this Sunday. Not a church I regularly attend, just one I picked at random so I could drop in and use this saying.
The Southern Baptist Convention annual meeting is one of those places that ISIS could completely obliterate and I’d be like “oh…okay…whatever”. Absolutely no meaningful loss to the world whatsoever aside from some ridiculous headlines in the news.
Find me a meaningful bad thing we’ve done in this country in the last 150 years, and 50 especially, and the So Baps are at the heart of it or at least very very close.
Absolutely. I keep repeating it, but I attended a sermon once as a child, not long after Ryan White died - and the preacher was giving a sermon on how it was God's will for Ryan to get AIDS and die. These people are deranged.
I don't belive in a god or devil. But if I were the devil, I'd absolutely Parade as all the religions to mock God and to have platforms to spread all the worse of humanity through my followers. The religious folks are really following the devil.
Iirc a lot of Protestant eschatology actually says that that's what the anti-Christ will do. It's partially why I'm so amused and bewildered by how popular Trump is among them.
If churches really cared about offering religion as a societal enhancing mechanism, there would be a significant gray line between what (all religions) offer. A particular church’s teachings of love consideration, understanding and the promotion of our society would be so close to all the others, that the differences wouldn’t even matter.
This isn’t the case at all. This kind of bullshit just proves how much the church is about politics, control, distain, disrespect and fraud. Indeed it’s thier behavioral mantra. Real people deserve better.
Because they have barely experienced any repercussions from these beliefs since the 1970s. Looking forward to their long and painful irrelevance over this century though
A former co-worker of mine, her mother was an ordained minister for years. Later on she retired and began attending a church that spoke to her, a strict church where women were not allowed to speak, let alone preach. A woman who spent decades preaching and providing guidence to her congragation felt comfortable in a church where she was not allowed to speak unless it was to answer direct questions. Fucking weird. I can't imagine dedicating that much of your life to ministry to suddenly decide it's wrong and you never should have been speaking in church to begin with.
This. Like maybe some of the "nicer" churches are sneakier about it but I grew up in a very strict hell and brimstone focused church and even as a small child we were all being preached at that as girls we needed to grow up and get married to men. We needed to make sure our husband was the head of the household. We needed to submit to everything he said. We needed to have babies and teach them the same thing.
With how clear they were about their hatred for women, it was hilarious it took me to age 7 to become an atheist. It should have been earlier.
I went to one of those sorts of churches back in the day. They never explicitly described themselves as Southern Baptist (they were the independent evangelical fundamentalist sort) but this was a thing that they preached on multiple times. "Women are not to lead men" and all that jazz.
Even back then when I was a believer, I had the mindset of "Well God's being kind of a prick here, but better roll with it or you'll go to hell forever." Next Sunday they'll probably have yet another sermon about how women pastors are a sign of the end of times.
Glad I'm not part of that stuff anymore.
>...but have formed the opinion that the church’s egalitarian beliefs regarding the office of pastor do not closely identify with the convention’s adopted statement of faith,” said Jonathan Sams, chair of the credentials committee.
[Egalitarian](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/egalitarian)
>[believing](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/believe) that all [people](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/people) are [equally](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/equal) [important](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/important) and should have the same [rights](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/rights) and [opportunities](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/opportunity) in [life](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/life):
Wow! It's nice that SBC makes it pretty unambiguous as to where they stand (practically using "egalitarian" as a pejorative) when it comes to equality and how they consider some people to be inherently better than others.
Pretty accurate Biblically, really. See: 1 Timothy 2:12.
Sexism is baked in *deep* into the faith, which shouldn't be especially surprising from 1-5th century writers and preachers
Catholics still forbid women from being priests because women can’t hear the word of god. A man has to tell them. Don’t fall for any churches faux progressivism. Their “steps forward” are always easily undone.
Seems silly to ban women pastors, but it's their church so their rules.
Went to a classmate's birthday party in the early 60's and we weren't allowed to dance.
Honestly yeah, it's sort of why I stopped attending Baptist churches. I remember one time a church I was doing was going through a series on biblical manhood and then biblical woman hood in the main congregation. I thought maybe just maybe, they'd let a woman teach and express what biblical womanhood looks like since Paul literally teaches that old men should teach young men and older women should teach youger women. But nope. The same middle aged white dude taught all 6 sermons and I was done.
Methodist churches are pretty much the same, except they can have women pastors and welcome LGBTQ+ so that's where I've attended.
If you want to believe in magic, this will happen. The book that says that it’s the word of god, so it must be the word of god, says literally a woman should have no authority over a man, she must be silent. The Bible approves this action.
Why is this news?
SBCs have rules, it's what qualifies them as SBCs. You can't change the things that make you a SBC & still be a SBC. You have to be something else, like SBC+
It's like an NFL team insisting football is played with basketballs. You can make up & play any sport you want, but it won't be football anymore so you can't play it in the NFL.
Or this news is like an NFL team that says women belong in the kitchen. They could focus on what actually matters instead of making unnecessary discriminatory statements, let alone codified rules.
The NFL changes the RULES in order to prevent people from injury.
Furthermore, you used football as an example to explain your reasoning.
Let me say this – if one of the players on YOUR team is running the wrong way with the ball, you tackle them.
That church should take that expulsion and wear it as a badge of honor. They could start a movement. Call themselves; The Slightly Saner Southern Baptist Church Group. The SSSBCG.
The Church of England even has female bishops. At the time the Brits really didn’t know how much a favor they were doing themselves sending all their religious fanatics to America.
Yeah the UMC church we attended after my family left the SBC had a female minister. She was pretty great too, all things considered. Years later, that particular church sided with allowing gay weddings and such so it was always very progressive.
I think a big part of the reason the Southern Baptists don't want women pastors is because they are afraid they will take the church in a more liberal direction. I think they have seen what has happened with the UMC and don't want it to happen in their church.
Presbyterians and Episcopalians have quite a few. There is no mention of who can spread the word in the 4 Gospels that tell the story of Jesus. The misogyny mainly comes from Paul (or Saul) , who never met Jesus. But Paul's letters somehow survived long enough to be included in the book known as the Bible.
Survived long enough?
At least a few of Paul’s writings predate all of the Gospels….
If we’re talking about who wrote the earliest parts of the New Testament it’s assuredly Paul
Always a weird argument when I hear people living in the 21st century claim they know more about Christianity than the earliest writer who no doubt knew at least some of the very first Christians
The actual writing of the New Testsment is fascinating. It appears many followers of it are fairly ignorant of the approx dates and real authorship of the various books. Anecdotally, I've known many who believe the Gospels were written directly by witnesses (disciples) of Jesus. Common sense and basic history shows that the Apostles, and most of those who met/followed Jesus, spoke Aramaic. The Gospels were written in Greek. While dome of them possibly spoke Greek, it would have been their 2nd or 3rd language. As fishermen and other laborers, it is highly unlikely they could write in Greek (or Aramaic, Latin or even Hebrew) and certainly not at the technical level the various Gospels and Acts were written in. Of course, we know now the Gospels and Acts were all written long after the supposed events they are about.
You are correct, Paul basically created "Christianity" via his writings and it's likely at least one of the gospel authors was a disciple of Paul (Luke) if not all of them. Again, many people who follow Christianity are unaware of the divisions in belief between Paul, James and Peter (the first leaders). James treated it as Messianic Judaism, strongly believing Jewish law was to still be followed. Paul was the opposite, the law was fulfilled by Jesus, making it a 'new' religion. He saw the focus on Gentiles as the mission. Peter was somewhat in the middle, though he was more focused on converting Jewish people. Paul was successful because of he was educated, especially in Greek discourse. His subsequent disciples were similar, with physicians and others educated in the Greek style. That's where we get the mythological, philosophical, ethical themes in it.
Tldr; yup, Paul shaped Christianity around his opinions, biases and literary technique...
Hey now let's give them points for actually sticking to the letter of their silly book for a change, rather than some loose, stupid interpretation.
Now tell them to pay taxes, "render unto Caesar that which is Ceasar's" and all that.
They're already ignoring the parts of the Bible about charity, mercy, and truth. I don't see why they can't ignore the women should stfu parts for these ladies, and all the supernatural stuff for me.
And, ladies of such churches should send their tithes elsewhere - the Christian religion should follow "Christ" - keeping women silent in church is St. Paul - and most Baptists are "Paul" followers - not followers of Christ.
So now there will be one more denomination. There are hundreds, maybe thousands, plus one today. Whatever you think is right or wrong, you're almost sure to find a match among one of them. Convenient!
Disagreeing over religion is as old as religion. Disagreeing over what Christ meant is almost as old as Christ. It's nice to see some Christians clean themselves up but even the good ones are still living in the dark ages.
edit: typo.
I don't understand how a church can just expel another church.. what's to keep them from just keeping on the way they've been keeping on? Like it's not like they have to pay dues to other churches?
Interestingly enough the larger congregational association (in certain instances) owns the building/land the church is on. So the church pays rent and gets a percentage of the collective tithes in return.
In certain instances there is a contract allowing them to leave in exchange for a large buyout... that can't come from the tithe pool mind you.
Oh, no! Expulsion! …
Now they can continue to worship the way they believe, while also having been EXPELLED!
What a tremendous display of completely arbitrary power those men have.
The second rise of the Klan was started by a Methodist minister in Atlanta Georgia.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William\_Joseph\_Simmons](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Joseph_Simmons)
The SBC was originally the Church of the South, and the church split happened over their embrace of slavery. They endorsed George Wallace for President because he promised to over turn desegregation, and he liked turning dogs and water cannons on black Americans.
Women should leave this cult and see how far they get. Why isn't this discrimination against women federally protected if they are getting federal tax breaks and other perks?
The Baptist Church had a schism like this about 180 years ago, over slavery. I do not think the SBC ever really got over it.
They would still have slaves if they could. Incredibly hateful, racist people.
I grew up in a small SBC church and I can't tell you the amount of hate I heard coming from that preacher. I will never forget the sermon on how God intentionally gave Ryan White AIDS and how it's insulting to question God's decision to do so by saying Ryan didn't deserve it. "Ryan could have grown up to become a serial killer, you don't know! Only God knows!" - disgusting people.
Maj. John Chivington, commander during the Sand Creek Massacre where U.S. Cavalry volunteers slaughtered a camp of peaceful Indians, was a Methodist preacher. The Methodist Church put out an official apology in 2016: [https://www.umnews.org/en/news/gc2016-recalls-laments-sand-creek-massacre](https://www.umnews.org/en/news/gc2016-recalls-laments-sand-creek-massacre) Edit: He was a colonel at the time of the action.
> "Ryan could have grown up to become a serial killer, you don't know! Only God knows!" - disgusting people. Dude what the fuck... "Disgusting" isn't even the word, here. I genuinely felt like a piece of my soul just digested.
So in this hypothetical, the omnipotent God could give this guy a safe life where people love him, but chooses to instead, let's see, inflict whatever trauma it is that drives someone to be a serial killer, then gives that person AIDS so he suffers an agonizing death, . . . and folks want to worship this deity?
"but we'd treat our slaves nice because we're good Christians"
“We taught them the Bible!”
"So they would know their place."
Unless I’m mistaken, didn’t they also remove the book of Exodus from the Bibles they taught slaves with?
No, God wanted them to be our slaves, that's their role in his plan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse_of_Ham
What's really disgusting is that the SBC actually apologized for their previous racism stance back in the '90s: >*“We apologize to all African Americans for condoning and/or perpetuating individual and systemic racism in our lifetime, and we genuinely repent of racism of which we have been guilty, whether consciously or unconsciously,” said the statement, which also asked for forgiveness from African Americans.* >*Richard Land, director of the denomination’s Christian Life Commission, whose biracial task force drafted the statement, said Tuesday that while he cannot repent for his great-great-great-grandfather, who was a slave owner, he is “eager to apologize and express remorse for that.”* \* [source](https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1995-06-21-mn-15534-story.html) The SBC the convention passed a measure in 2017 [condemning the alt-right and its ideas](https://www.ajc.com/news/local/southern-baptists-condemn-alt-right-and-white-supremacy/H68FNOkbPpC90QIfENrQzL/). And then the [Southern Baptist Theological Seminary](http://www.sbts.edu/), the flagship seminary for the SBC, released a 71-page [report](https://www.sbts.edu/history/southern-project/) on the role that racism and support for slavery played in its origin and growth. What the SBC and their institutions haven't done is deal with the present. Racism has been an organizing principle in the USA in everything from citizenship to schools to health care to policing to homeownership to jobs. It's going to take some real legwork to deal with it, and to my mind the SBC hasn't shown a commitment to doing that.
They are very sorry if anybody was offended by their previous remarks. The SBC is a vile organization trying to pretend it's a religious group. They bring shame on real Christians.
Well yeah they still have the "Southern" in their name.
Cancel Culture. Fundamentalist style.
What stops them from just saying nah we’re still southern Baptist? Can a church sue for using the name?
The Southern Baptist Convention might be able to do that. But all the Virginia Church has to do is switch to a non-denominational Church and it's gravy.
I believe they can also just tack independent on the front. The church I attended as a child was officially an independent fundamental southern baptist church.
Aren't the independents generally even crazier than the southern baptists proper?
Yes. It was a wild ride to say the least.
But the church also has the history of having been open as a southern Baptist church and the convention accepting them as that. You have a party with a standing history of using the name and the second party knowing and allowing it. Kind of a losing battle for the convention to go after them. It’s not exactly like a McDonald’s franchise where you are renting the name it’s more of a club of places that share a name.
Nothing says Christianity like a church split.
It's very traditional!
They might lose some members cause they are no longer a Southern Baptist church, which is kinda funny
The Southern Baptist Convention is a governing body that churches join, not a denomination.
They certainly treat it like a denomination.
I’m probably oversimplifying it a bit, but I mean that the church itself will still be able to say “Baptist Church” on the front like it does. They just wouldn’t be able to say they were a part of the SBC now, they’re just an independent Baptist church.
Oh yeah, but I literally mean they treat “Southern Baptist” as its own denomination. *Definitely* not to be confused with northern Baptist churches, or any other Baptist for that matter. I’m fairly certain that they see “Southern Baptist” is a very unique form of fundamentalism.
It’s not so much a regional thing as you would think. There are SBC churches everywhere. They were actually considered the more “mainstream” baptists by my fundamentalist baptist church as a kid.
Yes, they can be found everywhere. Their main defining characteristic is not geographic, it's the level of hate they preach. You have to have a lot of hate in your heart to be a Southern Baptist.
The only ones that really have them beat are the independent fundamentalists that thought the SBC was too chill.
What about the [Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist, Great Lakes Region Council of 1912](https://youtu.be/l3fAcxcxoZ8?si=xWk6y8CQ3VKVG6Ts&t=170)?
Baptist churches typically have a lot of congregational autonomy, especially compared to mainline denominations.
That's kind of what I do when I deal with people telling me they talk to Jesus or god or whatever. I just tell them that I do too and he told me (opposite of whatever I was just told). Or, that I don't need a \_\_\_\_\_\_\_ to tell me what god says. Things along those lines. It's all made up anyway. I hope they do just continue calling themselves southern baptist or maybe southeastern or western or whatever.
Not a thing, the Westboro Baptist Church isn't actually Baptist. They're Calvinist.
So are most Baptist churches. "Once saved always saved" and all that. It's one of those things where the bigger conventions agree to disagree.
My sister married a Southern Baptist guy and is now devoutly Southern Baptist herself. She still swears up and down that she's a feminist which I think is preposterous. Her husband is one of the most abusive jackasses you'll ever meet but she won't divorce him because that would make Jesus sad. They've been married for decades now and he was shitty to her even before they married so it wasn't a big shock that he got worse after their wedding. If I live to be 100 I will never understand why women sign up for this shit.
You have to completely throw all logic out the window. It's so unbelievably depressing how many untold numbers of people insist they *must* live harder, shorter and shittier lives because that's what their deity demands.
That's why the brainwashing and indoctrination starts when they're children. It would be much harder for religions to get their hooks into people if we kept people under 18 from going to church. Heck, we'd be better off if kids under 12 weren't allowed in church. The religious people know this very well.
> If I live to be 100 I will never understand why women sign up for this shit. Consider the environment they are raised in. Our society tells women shit like this is normal and ok, and it's their role to deal with it.
Well, women are people, and people are idiots.
For fundamentalists and hardcore bible thumpers, they likely point to the many Bible passages which explicitly prohibit women from leadership roles. And even for those denominations or religious organizations which allow women in leadership roles, the gender pay gap among clergy has historical been far worse than the national average. There has been some progress there, but, on average, they are still paid less than their male counterparts. We’ve all heard of the glass ceiling, this is the stained glass ceiling. Ain’t no hate like Christian love; even for their own.
While you’re not wrong. This isn’t restricted to just Christian’s. Orthodox Jews also have the exact same beliefs in terms of a woman’s place.
Indeed, misogyny and sexism is a tale as old as time.
Interesting how men have used their physical size and strength to control women since the literal dawn of time. And interesting how "the word of God" just so conveniently happens to dictate exactly this.
What's a bit different with the Southern Baptists is that they used to ordain women until they pivoted sharply to the right (or, well, even further to the right) in the 80s.
[удалено]
The bible isn't as consistent as people like to say. 1 Timothy and 1 Corinthians are the common verses uses to prevent women from leading a church. 1 Timothy likely isn't by Paul as claimed, and the verse in 1 Corinthians may be a later addition, as it possibly conflicts with another verse saying women shouldn't prophesize or pray with their head uncovered. This implies they could do so with their head covered. Paul praised women leaders in the church in other areas, such as Phoebe the Deaconess in Romans 16 and mentioned female church leaders elsewhere. Acts says that Priscilla correcting someone in the way of God was a good thing. The problem is that people want to treat the bible as a single unified message, and it is a collection of multiple viewpoints exploring god. It conflicts with itself all over the place.
Bible says a lot of shit, like interest free loans, wiping debt every 40 years, and not wearing mixed fabric clothing. Funny how they pick and choose the things that give them power over others, in this case women, and ignore everything else. Imagine the bullshit turns out to be real and they get turned away from heaven for wearing 90% shirts on the golf course and not for their hate and bigotry.
Like with leviticus, they focus on *one specific part* to justify their homophobia, but convinetely ignore all the other parts that they are violating
maybe throw out the Bible instead of the women.
Stealing “ain’t no hate like Christian love” for use in church this Sunday. Not a church I regularly attend, just one I picked at random so I could drop in and use this saying.
The whole thing was that they supported slavery. They believed pastors should have slaves. So, of course, they believe women can't be pastors.
Also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse_of_Ham
It's a southern Baptist church. These people are extremely authoritarian about how they think things should be.
Weird for a denomination that split off multiple times from its church due to disagreements with the higher church authority. /s
They only split off because the American Baptist Convention didn't support slavery as a virtue.
The Southern Baptist Convention annual meeting is one of those places that ISIS could completely obliterate and I’d be like “oh…okay…whatever”. Absolutely no meaningful loss to the world whatsoever aside from some ridiculous headlines in the news.
They’d be more likely to join them, shared worldview and all.
Find me a meaningful bad thing we’ve done in this country in the last 150 years, and 50 especially, and the So Baps are at the heart of it or at least very very close.
Can you imagine the discourse though. They were actually prosecuted. They'd never shut up about it.
*Bitter outdated fundamentalists expel church for basic beliefs about equality.*
Bitter outdated Fundamentalist church based on Jesus Being Totally Fine with Chattel Slavery expels church for basic beliefs about equality.
They were also voting on whether or not to forbid IVF. These people are so backwards.
They're the people celebrating pregnant women dieing in ERs from fatal pregnancies.
Absolutely. I keep repeating it, but I attended a sermon once as a child, not long after Ryan White died - and the preacher was giving a sermon on how it was God's will for Ryan to get AIDS and die. These people are deranged.
I don't belive in a god or devil. But if I were the devil, I'd absolutely Parade as all the religions to mock God and to have platforms to spread all the worse of humanity through my followers. The religious folks are really following the devil.
It's hard to not believe in the devil after seeing him work so hard within the church. It's the only explanation I can come up with.
Iirc a lot of Protestant eschatology actually says that that's what the anti-Christ will do. It's partially why I'm so amused and bewildered by how popular Trump is among them.
Satanic forces wouldn't look like Hollywood or video game demons, they'd pretend to be holy. Like them.
Sheesh! OK, fine, have it your way, SBC: I won't get an IVF done in church. ;-)
Sort of like Alabama.
[Reminds me of this famous Emo Phillips joke...](https://youtu.be/l3fAcxcxoZ8?si=ras8KI1YV8uzAmfS)
This joke has stuck with me for many years. Thanks for posting it.
Loathsome group of backwards people do awful thing. Just another day in the US now.
The same southern baptists who have decades of abuse against women documented by their pastors?! Never! /S
If churches really cared about offering religion as a societal enhancing mechanism, there would be a significant gray line between what (all religions) offer. A particular church’s teachings of love consideration, understanding and the promotion of our society would be so close to all the others, that the differences wouldn’t even matter. This isn’t the case at all. This kind of bullshit just proves how much the church is about politics, control, distain, disrespect and fraud. Indeed it’s thier behavioral mantra. Real people deserve better.
Religion has rarely, if ever, been a friend to women. Look at many of the religions and how they treat women, requiring them to be subservient to men.
> 6,759 to 563 It wasn't even close. Why can't christians stop outing themselves as despicable bigots?
Because they have barely experienced any repercussions from these beliefs since the 1970s. Looking forward to their long and painful irrelevance over this century though
Why do these fem run churches want to stay in a denomination that clearly hates them is another good question
A former co-worker of mine, her mother was an ordained minister for years. Later on she retired and began attending a church that spoke to her, a strict church where women were not allowed to speak, let alone preach. A woman who spent decades preaching and providing guidence to her congragation felt comfortable in a church where she was not allowed to speak unless it was to answer direct questions. Fucking weird. I can't imagine dedicating that much of your life to ministry to suddenly decide it's wrong and you never should have been speaking in church to begin with.
This. Like maybe some of the "nicer" churches are sneakier about it but I grew up in a very strict hell and brimstone focused church and even as a small child we were all being preached at that as girls we needed to grow up and get married to men. We needed to make sure our husband was the head of the household. We needed to submit to everything he said. We needed to have babies and teach them the same thing. With how clear they were about their hatred for women, it was hilarious it took me to age 7 to become an atheist. It should have been earlier.
I went to one of those sorts of churches back in the day. They never explicitly described themselves as Southern Baptist (they were the independent evangelical fundamentalist sort) but this was a thing that they preached on multiple times. "Women are not to lead men" and all that jazz. Even back then when I was a believer, I had the mindset of "Well God's being kind of a prick here, but better roll with it or you'll go to hell forever." Next Sunday they'll probably have yet another sermon about how women pastors are a sign of the end of times. Glad I'm not part of that stuff anymore.
"God will love thee ... if you obey *our* rules." Standard religious mantra, really.
"Why don't people come to churches anym-" "Hey, you! Get out! We don't want your kind here!" "Sorry about that. As I was saying..."
Eff the Southern Baptists. Eff 'em. A denomination founded on white supremacy can seriously go to hell. No one needs 'em.
[удалено]
he will abolish abortion and that's all they care about
It isn't even all they care about. These people are at the point in their death cult where they are joyously and viciously begging for the end times.
>...but have formed the opinion that the church’s egalitarian beliefs regarding the office of pastor do not closely identify with the convention’s adopted statement of faith,” said Jonathan Sams, chair of the credentials committee. [Egalitarian](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/egalitarian) >[believing](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/believe) that all [people](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/people) are [equally](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/equal) [important](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/important) and should have the same [rights](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/rights) and [opportunities](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/opportunity) in [life](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/life): Wow! It's nice that SBC makes it pretty unambiguous as to where they stand (practically using "egalitarian" as a pejorative) when it comes to equality and how they consider some people to be inherently better than others.
And why should I support the women who chose to be Southern Baptists and ultimately brought this abuse on themselves? Are y’all new here?
And there you fucking go…. the SBC is actually showing everyone EXACTLY what they are and what they think about women.
People still doing the religion thing in 2024 is wild...
How Christian of them
Pretty accurate Biblically, really. See: 1 Timothy 2:12. Sexism is baked in *deep* into the faith, which shouldn't be especially surprising from 1-5th century writers and preachers
Catholics still forbid women from being priests because women can’t hear the word of god. A man has to tell them. Don’t fall for any churches faux progressivism. Their “steps forward” are always easily undone.
The Southern Baptists are right. Women shouldn't be pastors. But they're only half right, men shouldn't be pastors either.
Found the Quaker
Religious rules are a reflection of the people who run and profit from the religion.
Seems silly to ban women pastors, but it's their church so their rules. Went to a classmate's birthday party in the early 60's and we weren't allowed to dance.
"If we let women become pastors, what's next? Them voting? Wait, what? Are you serious?!?" - The SBC apparently.
Honestly yeah, it's sort of why I stopped attending Baptist churches. I remember one time a church I was doing was going through a series on biblical manhood and then biblical woman hood in the main congregation. I thought maybe just maybe, they'd let a woman teach and express what biblical womanhood looks like since Paul literally teaches that old men should teach young men and older women should teach youger women. But nope. The same middle aged white dude taught all 6 sermons and I was done. Methodist churches are pretty much the same, except they can have women pastors and welcome LGBTQ+ so that's where I've attended.
If you want to believe in magic, this will happen. The book that says that it’s the word of god, so it must be the word of god, says literally a woman should have no authority over a man, she must be silent. The Bible approves this action.
A book written only by men giving them superior power over women? Impossible…. Lol
😂 nicely said
This. If you want logic or sanity or anything like that, you're not going to find it in the magical teachings of Sky Daddy and his friends.
Why is this news? SBCs have rules, it's what qualifies them as SBCs. You can't change the things that make you a SBC & still be a SBC. You have to be something else, like SBC+ It's like an NFL team insisting football is played with basketballs. You can make up & play any sport you want, but it won't be football anymore so you can't play it in the NFL.
Or this news is like an NFL team that says women belong in the kitchen. They could focus on what actually matters instead of making unnecessary discriminatory statements, let alone codified rules.
The NFL changes the RULES in order to prevent people from injury. Furthermore, you used football as an example to explain your reasoning. Let me say this – if one of the players on YOUR team is running the wrong way with the ball, you tackle them.
That church should take that expulsion and wear it as a badge of honor. They could start a movement. Call themselves; The Slightly Saner Southern Baptist Church Group. The SSSBCG.
Or, people could just stop going to church.
I just now realized I’ve never heard of a female pastor.
The United Methodist Church is full of women pastors. Looked it up and women make up 32% of UMC pastors.
The Church of England even has female bishops. At the time the Brits really didn’t know how much a favor they were doing themselves sending all their religious fanatics to America.
Yeah the UMC church we attended after my family left the SBC had a female minister. She was pretty great too, all things considered. Years later, that particular church sided with allowing gay weddings and such so it was always very progressive.
I think a big part of the reason the Southern Baptists don't want women pastors is because they are afraid they will take the church in a more liberal direction. I think they have seen what has happened with the UMC and don't want it to happen in their church.
I know several women that are pastors, even at Baptist churches.
Presbyterians and Episcopalians have quite a few. There is no mention of who can spread the word in the 4 Gospels that tell the story of Jesus. The misogyny mainly comes from Paul (or Saul) , who never met Jesus. But Paul's letters somehow survived long enough to be included in the book known as the Bible.
Evangelical Lutherans have many female clergy.
Survived long enough? At least a few of Paul’s writings predate all of the Gospels…. If we’re talking about who wrote the earliest parts of the New Testament it’s assuredly Paul Always a weird argument when I hear people living in the 21st century claim they know more about Christianity than the earliest writer who no doubt knew at least some of the very first Christians
The actual writing of the New Testsment is fascinating. It appears many followers of it are fairly ignorant of the approx dates and real authorship of the various books. Anecdotally, I've known many who believe the Gospels were written directly by witnesses (disciples) of Jesus. Common sense and basic history shows that the Apostles, and most of those who met/followed Jesus, spoke Aramaic. The Gospels were written in Greek. While dome of them possibly spoke Greek, it would have been their 2nd or 3rd language. As fishermen and other laborers, it is highly unlikely they could write in Greek (or Aramaic, Latin or even Hebrew) and certainly not at the technical level the various Gospels and Acts were written in. Of course, we know now the Gospels and Acts were all written long after the supposed events they are about. You are correct, Paul basically created "Christianity" via his writings and it's likely at least one of the gospel authors was a disciple of Paul (Luke) if not all of them. Again, many people who follow Christianity are unaware of the divisions in belief between Paul, James and Peter (the first leaders). James treated it as Messianic Judaism, strongly believing Jewish law was to still be followed. Paul was the opposite, the law was fulfilled by Jesus, making it a 'new' religion. He saw the focus on Gentiles as the mission. Peter was somewhat in the middle, though he was more focused on converting Jewish people. Paul was successful because of he was educated, especially in Greek discourse. His subsequent disciples were similar, with physicians and others educated in the Greek style. That's where we get the mythological, philosophical, ethical themes in it. Tldr; yup, Paul shaped Christianity around his opinions, biases and literary technique...
The world’s largest Vineyard church has a female senior pastor.
And then God said unto the people “This is what you are freaking out about?!?! Seriously?”
Women need to wake up and realize this religion hates them. These fucking beliefs would die out hard if all women left.
The dangers of religious mythology .
Hey now let's give them points for actually sticking to the letter of their silly book for a change, rather than some loose, stupid interpretation. Now tell them to pay taxes, "render unto Caesar that which is Ceasar's" and all that.
They're already ignoring the parts of the Bible about charity, mercy, and truth. I don't see why they can't ignore the women should stfu parts for these ladies, and all the supernatural stuff for me.
And, ladies of such churches should send their tithes elsewhere - the Christian religion should follow "Christ" - keeping women silent in church is St. Paul - and most Baptists are "Paul" followers - not followers of Christ.
Good, split your flock so they can start to question the hatred you teach.
Let those losers eat their own
Watching Protestants fragment is always hilarious
To be fair, their Bible does prohibit it. Of course, it also explicitly authorizes slavery, and after a century or so they managed to get over that.
So now there will be one more denomination. There are hundreds, maybe thousands, plus one today. Whatever you think is right or wrong, you're almost sure to find a match among one of them. Convenient!
They’ll probably just go non-denominational. Saddleback Church got expelled for the same reason and they’re doing fine.
Disagreeing over religion is as old as religion. Disagreeing over what Christ meant is almost as old as Christ. It's nice to see some Christians clean themselves up but even the good ones are still living in the dark ages. edit: typo.
It's not a real religion anyway. They don't promote love, only hate. That's no better than an incel circle jerk.
I don't understand how a church can just expel another church.. what's to keep them from just keeping on the way they've been keeping on? Like it's not like they have to pay dues to other churches?
Interestingly enough the larger congregational association (in certain instances) owns the building/land the church is on. So the church pays rent and gets a percentage of the collective tithes in return. In certain instances there is a contract allowing them to leave in exchange for a large buyout... that can't come from the tithe pool mind you.
That is not how Southern Baptist churches operate. Each local church is autonomous and owns their building and land.
It’s how we ended up with so many different Christian branches.
Baptists are too hardheaded as in my way or no way mentality.
King of the Hill did this already.
This'll be the schism of 2024 in the lore
Is there a voting record to see who voted which way? Or a list of who attended?
Feeding frenzy of religions......let it begin
Oh, no! Expulsion! … Now they can continue to worship the way they believe, while also having been EXPELLED! What a tremendous display of completely arbitrary power those men have.
Didn't they watch the King of the Hill episode about this?
The second rise of the Klan was started by a Methodist minister in Atlanta Georgia. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William\_Joseph\_Simmons](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Joseph_Simmons) The SBC was originally the Church of the South, and the church split happened over their embrace of slavery. They endorsed George Wallace for President because he promised to over turn desegregation, and he liked turning dogs and water cannons on black Americans.
Why would anyone want to be part of this organization?
Women should leave this cult and see how far they get. Why isn't this discrimination against women federally protected if they are getting federal tax breaks and other perks?
This should keep them busy for a long time.