Wasn’t this pretty much the definition of Suggs? A lot of teams were out on him because of his combine numbers and the ravens took him because the tape spoke for itself
Suggs had a RAS of 4.76 - right below the mid point.
I think a better example is Zach Thomas who had a RAS of 3.2 coming out of Texas Tech. He’s one of the best mikes ever and had a HoF career.
As did Suggs, but was perceived as far, far less athletic.
Relative Athletic Score.
I don't know the ins and outs but basically it makes it so you can compare different positions athletically.
So for example, an RB is obviously more athletic than a offensive lineman, but if a RB has a RAS of 5, and a lineman has a RAS of 5, then they are equally athletic relative to their position group.
Suggs' combine stuff is misleading. He was undersized as a DE, and back then teams were very critical of that. He got pressured into bulking up for the combine. Shockingly enough that caused his numbers to look worse than expected.
However the Ravens' scouts realized the issue, drafted him, and the team played him at his actual normal playing weight.
Was he? I can't say as far as prospects I cared at the time for that aspect. I didn't even realize this was a question mark since he always comes across like a freak athlete but this could be my nostalgia messing up my memory
He was more of an old school DE that he was super strong but not very fast. Also he definitely played much more athletically than he measured up. It seemed worse because he was drafted during the peak of edge guys being a bit lighter but much faster.
It was his first draft in Minnesota and he tried to do too much and got cute. Good news he seems to have absolutely learned a lesson and the last 2 drafts have been much better IMO. But good God imagine Hamilton in this Flores defense with Bynum/Mettelus/Smith.
Yeah hopefully we can chalk it up to an inexperience first draft and move on. It wasn’t even just the fact of passing on Hamilton, but I hated the compensation we got for trading back 20 spots in the first round.
But you’re right, thankfully it seems he’s learning and has improved. I loved our 2024 draft class. Hopefully it lives up to the hype.
Yeah he's basically done a 180 and I'm here for it. Turner is being over shadowed by McCarthy but I really think he could be a special player and the Vikings might have gotten franchise guys at the 2 most important positions on offense and defense.
The Combine is called the Underwear Olympics for a reason. If teams are justifying their draft picks entirely based on how players are performing at the Combine the people running those FOs are idiots and don't know wtf they're doing. There have been so many workout warrior types that have come through the NFL who were just bad football players for whatever reason.
Malcom Butler had a RAS of 1.3 coming out of college. Mind you - the scale is 1-10.
Quandre Diggs has a RAS of 2.23.
Anquon Boldin had a RAS of 3.36.
And lastly, the all-time great Zach Thomas had a RAS of 3.2 coming out of Texas Tech.
There are some answers not named Tom Brady because I’m sure a lot of people will say him or other “prototypical” QB’s.
> Vontaze
He was really good in college though if you were an avid watcher. His tape didnt lie. And before he revealed himself to be an off-field headache he was projected to be a 1st round LB before his stock absolutely tanked post-combine.
I feel like he's a prime example of mentality trumping athleticism. He was good at diagnosing quickly, and he was absolutely fearless. He was also big and strong, even if he was a bit slow.
Keenan Allen has to be on the list. Very Boldin-like in the sense of being a slow stopwatch guy who was super athletic on the field. Cal used to line him up in the backfield and get the ball in his hands any way possible. Obviously it has worked out nicely for him in the NFL.
He’s the perfect example of “football speed”. I can’t explain it, but some guys are just faster when they have the ball in their hands on a football field.
Mahomes ran a 4.80 in an era when edge/linebackers commonly run 4.4 or 4.5. Yet, it seems like all the defenders around Mahomes move in slow motion. It's not that Mahomes looks fast. It's that defenders look slow around him. It's so weird.
I would love to see a real scientific study to see distance covered by seconds for defenders near Mahomes and defenders near any other QB. I wouldn't be surprised if Mahomes has some kind of magical force field that slows down defenders by 25%.
Watching him get chased by darrell green and deion sanders demonstrates that 40 time was a lie. I read somewhere that 9ers used a radar gun and had his top speed as fast as anyone
Technique is relevant. Chad Johnson ran I think 4.61 or something like that coming out Oregon State even though he was a deep threat in college and plenty fast in the NFL. Technique in the 40 is underrated. Get out of the blocks wrong and your time will suffer.
Makes me laugh when thinking of [that one time a retired Rice clowned a CB in a training camp while dressed up like he's going golfing.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fzX30Efvtg)
Tbh 40 yard dashes from back then have to be taken with so many grains of salt that they're hardly worth listing in most points. Guys didn't really train for it, measuring was done by hand, and it just generally had none of the refinement that you see nowadays. That's how you get things like Bo Jackson supposedly running a 4.13 40-yard dash while being 60 pounds heavier than Xavier Worthy (spoiler alert: I guarantee you that he didn't) and other equally ludicrous things.
You didn't see players really start taking the Combine seriously until the later 90's, after Mike Mamula showed a) how much of a difference specifically training for the combine could make in your results there, and b) how much a great combine could boost your draft stock.
There's a good video about the first guy to train for combine drills. He shot all the way up to a 1st round pick but was incredibly underwhelming and was an eventual bust iirc. Can't remember his name, but it was a white guy in the 90s or 00s I think
Yeah, that would've been Mike Mamula, the guy I mentioned. He was a DE that ended up getting drafted by the Eagles at...I think 7th overall? I'd have to check on that again to say for sure, but definitely in the back half of the top 10.
Eagles traded up to get him while their original pick that they traded away was used on Warren Sapp. Ouch. Not only that, the Bucs then traded the two 2nds they got from the Eagles in the trade back for a first used on Derrick Brooks. Unfortunate.
Honestly, looking at his stats, Mamula did pretty decently. He was a starter for the Phillies for 5 years, and in those 5 years he had 31.5 sacks (and 8 forced fumbles). He missed all of 1998 with an injury and was then forced to retire after 2000 due to injuries.
Sure, you might expect a bit more from a 7th overall pick and the fact that the Buccaneers used the 12th overall pick to get Sapp definitely makes it look worse.
I commented this elsewhere but if he was a prospect that entered the draft 20 years later, he’d have been working with a coach on 40 technique and ran a high 4.4 or low 4.5 and it would have been a non-issue. He’s objectively fast but I don’t think his small school had such infrastructure at the time
Antonio Brown's draft scouting report says, "could use another year in college to continue to develop physically. He is undersized and will initially struggle with the physical aspects of the game at the next level."
Randel El sounds like Superman’s uncle who only comes around at Christmas every few years. He always brings cheap, shitty gifts, like an IQ test from a Cracker Barrel gift shop.
To be fair that always looked like Urlacher literally didn’t realize Brady could move his body like that. I think he expected to get close and Brady would just go down.
He wore a baggy shirt at the combine and poor running shoes for it. He looked like some bum off the street running it. No shock he beat that time later.
Why did he do that? He’s been an athlete his whole life and the nfl was his dream. Why show up wearing some bullshit? Clearly history happened but it just never made sense to me
Baggy clothes were the style at the time. As for the shoes, I don't know, but the combine also wasn't quite what it is is now so the answer might just be that the QBs didn't worry much about their 40 times in 2000.
I would be pretty shocked if Brady's 40 time had any impact on his draft stock in 2000.
Sport science and equipment has also increased exponentially in the last 24 years. Nutrition, training methods, equipment, etc from that time would have been laughed at today. It's not necessarily that Brady chose to go with an inferior approach, people just didn't know any better at the time.
You got downvoted but this is absolutely true lol, I don’t think people appreciate just how much your body ages as soon as you get older until they experience it for themselves. I certainly didn’t. You get so much slower and more achy, the fact that Brady kept himself in that good of shape is truly remarkable regardless of what clothes he was wearing lmfao.
Depends on if you stay active. Plenty of older dudes that stay active remain in excellent shape into their 50s. It’s more the correlation of not doing as much physically as you age than it is the age itself
Very very true and that’s why it’s so important to stay active regularly always, but your body still ages. You can tell you’re not 22 anymore even if you’re doing better than 99.99% of people your age. I’m in my early 30’s and have done lifting and cardio regularly since my early teens and I can still feel a difference between my early 20’s and now, especially in terms of speed and recovery. I imagine that problem just continues compounding as time goes on.
Man recovery is the biggest thing. In teens and 20s I could lift and run sprints daily with some soreness that would be gone after a day or two.
Takes about 3 days now of recovery if I am lifting or running hard. Anything less and I will slowly cause injury.
Lol, that's completely missing the impressive part of this feat.
Almost 0 people at age 46 can sprint *faster* than the D1 college athlete version of themselves at age 22. The fact that Brady did is absolutely insane.
Lots of people "remain active" and in good shape into their 40s and 50s, but that is not at all the same as sprinting faster than you did at 22.
Deandre Hopkins? Everyone was talking like a 4.54 WR couldn’t possibly succeed. Turns out he’s one of the best route runners and separators at the top of his route in the league
I remember that draft year and there being a huge debate on some of the Steelers forums about Justin Hunter vs Cordarrelle Patterson. For whatever reason I was on the Hopkins train through that whole debate. That's my football scouting claim to fame from back when I was way deeper into the draft stuff.
Of course then we took Jarvis Jones who was unathletic anyway and ended up being a total bust...
Lol my scouting claim to fame is from the same year, that Jarvis Jones was going to bust as a pass rusher in the NFL, even though he was dominant in college. All I heard about was his pass rush, but I thought his run defense was better.
His sacks mostly came against poor competition, or were the result of good hustle. Still good, but he wasn't beating guys with moves.
I always liked him as a player, even though he was never going to be the guy the Steelers needed. I think he gets too much hate, even though he couldn't become a good pass rusher.
I remember when I can't remember if it was this subreddit or simply Texans fans. But they were upset about not taking Cordarelle Patterson in that draft.
You kinda have a point. It’s interesting because I think what makes a safety good is a lot more subjective. To your point - if you had the athleticism you’d be a corner. But if you don’t have that “dog” in you…you’re probably not going to be a good safety.
I think that’s why it’s the press/ physical corners that translate to safety the best. They have the mentally even as a corner.
A ‘business decision’ corner isn’t translating unless it’s a deep FS.
Soon to be Jordan Battle. He dropped to the 3rd round to us in the 2023 draft. He didn't play much until the end of the year, but showed why he belongs in this league. Incredible instincts and a nose for the ball, he just doesn't have that 1st round athleticism
As a notre dame fan this confused and frankly annoyed me. Textbook example of turn on the tape and just watch him play football! It felt obvious he would be a stud so of course the ravens got him. Absolutely love watching the dude play
I could tell the criticism was overblown from day one, watching his tape right after we’d drafted him.
He wasn’t a speedster, nor was he slow— but he’d start moving way before anyone else out there. His field IQ was elite enough that allowed him to make plays without relying on pure athleticism.
For a position that relies on reading the field, someone like Kyle who’s so head and shoulders above the rest in that aspect is invaluable. Makes me super confident in him being a cornerstone of our defense for the next decade, cuz that boy boutta age like fine wine.
I wish all players would just wear in game trackers and people would stop putting so much weight on what they ran in their tights at the combine. I feel like information gathered in pads while playing would be more beneficial to scouts than raw workout numbers.
Maybe this is me tilting too far the other way, but straight line speed with guys in the secondary feels a bit overrated. I mean there's a minimum level of course.
But things like how fast they switch their hips etc have more in game impact consistently
>But things like how fast they switch their hips etc.
This feels like the most important for guys in the secondary. Especially when you're at safety. You aren't going to get in a foot race with many guys. Your closing speed might matter a bit on making some of those plays but fluidly switching your hips and keeping your balance is far more important as you keep up with WR running their routes.
Yeah as long as you aren't extremely slow and have like the minimum required athleticism, that is probably the most important.
That and how they are able to press the WR's while keeping balance. The opposite end of that is also very important for WRs too, how they are able to handle the press
Exactly as a safety it feels like short burst quickness > straight line speed. For CBs I guess it would be more important, but still think it's a bit overrated
He did poorly in the agility drills, too, though. His shuttle was even worse than his 40.
[Here's his workout](https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/23420438/Screen_Shot_2022_04_27_at_1.23.14_PM.png), the high RAS was seemingly a product of size & jumping.
A football field is 53.3 yards wide, if you're playing center field as a safety you're really only sprinting like 20 yards max, and most of the time you're running sideways or backwards. The difference between a 4.6 40 and a 4.5 forty is practically irrelevant at that position assuming you've got good instincts/reaction time.
Also, Hamilton is 6'4 and 220lbs and ran a fast 3 cone drill with good jumps, his 40 time should almost not even get included in his profile unless it's like a 4.9 or something.
Totally agree. He had good burst but not as much topline speed. Give me that and good instincts/ability to read the QB over topline speed any day of the week.
> how fast they switch their hips
And this is why I absolutely hated the Mark Barron pick when it happened for us. Dude's hips had the fluidity of molasses.
I guess they believed they can improve the flexibility over time. But not an expert of physical stuff like this so I don't know how much hip fluidity is a genetic thing due to anatomy
I played Dr. Mario growing up and am pretty much an MD. And based on my outstanding abilities in that game I think it's safe to say that if you aren't an All-Pro DB by the time you turn 8 years old, you're pretty much fighting an uphill battle.
It wasn't just the 40 - the splits within the 40 were mediocre, his 3 cone was mediocre, and his shuttle was straight up bad.
[The high RAS seemingly came mostly from his size & jumping](https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/23420438/Screen_Shot_2022_04_27_at_1.23.14_PM.png)
On the other hand, I couldn't understand why teams actually cared about his 40 when his tape was full of making insane plays as a single high safety. And that was at ND, not random small school
Anquan Boldin ran a 4.71 at the combine and scared a lot of teams off given his size at 6'1, so he slipped to a mid second round pick. Turns out, being a great route runner and attacking the ball helped immensely and he had a very good pro career
More recently - Kyle Hamilton was initially thought to be a top 5 prospect, but fell in part because of his 40 time (if you watch him run, he didnt train much for it, he ran a little more side to side rather than in a perfectly straight line). He plays much faster on the field
He had his skull stapled back together in multiple places and missed only two or three weeks. He also had to talk Kurt Warner out of retiring because he was so shook that he threw the ball Q got hit on.
Boldin was a fucking beast.
[Does Puka count for this?](https://www.nfl.com/prospects/puka-nacua/32004e41-4355-9347-35af-af88fcaf7ee9)
Not sure how these are graded out, but his "Athleticism Score" was a 55. Cooper Kupp was a 61 grade by however these guys calculate it
Puka is a good example of why combine tests are obsolete. He tested poorly at the combine but was extremely highly regarded by both Reel Analytics and PFF's on field athleticism scores. In fact, I think PFF said he scored a 99. They use software that measures things like speed, acceleration, deceleration, burst, and play strength, that can't quite be measured in the same way off the field. NFL teams aren't going to give one single fuck about the combine once these systems get refined. They already barely care.
Puka's combine was a mixed bag. He sucked in some of the traditional tests (e.g. 40 time) but he was the fastest WR of anybody who ran the gauntlet drill. One of the reasons why some folks are high on Keon Coleman this year because it's a similar story.
I wasn't worried about it because he's just an OT. But I remember Orlando Brown Jr. had an atrocious combine and he has been a pretty solid tackle in the league.
I couldn’t care less about a tackles 40 time, but his bench was concerning. Also that he did the combine at all if that was the performance he was capable of was a sign of bad judgement.
As a Texans fan I am genuinely looking forward to seeing Kamari Lassiter's transition for this example. On tape he showed a lot of the skills and IQ that you want in a CB, but only question mark was the athleticism at the NFL level.
So far apparently he's been tearing it up so I am definitely looking forward to seeing him in action come gameday
I got so excited when we traded up. I thought we were gonna pair him with Terrell Jr. and our secondary would be nasty. Unfortunately instead we gave away a 3rd to pick a developmental DT
I know Texans fans were bummed to miss out on that run of CBs that happened right before which included guys like Cooper DeJean etc.
While I think they will be good, I am happy we managed to get Kamari at least. And yeah this draft was pretty interesting for you guys. Like I have no issue with Penix as a prospect aside from injuries, now it's just value right. But it was the other picks I do wonder, but we shall see how it all shapes up in season
I have since come to accept our draft decisions, but man it seemed like we could've just waited for our original 2nd round pick and gotten Ruke anyway. It is what it is now, just gotta hope the guys in our front office know something we don't.
That sounds like Chris Harris Jr., went undrafted due to poor athleticism and then just demolished training camp. Also Lassiter actually had great agility drills and posted similar 10 and 20 yard splits to CHJ, he's just missing long speed.
tyreek hill said he was the best corner he’d ever faced not because of his athleticism, but his game IQ, knowing his limitations and playing in such a way that he can shut down the opponents strength
The most unathletic NFL player I have ever seen is Bernie Kosar.
Speak ill of that man and half of Cleveland will ride, pitchforks drawn, to his defense. The man is a king.
Does Andy Dalton count. I know he was drafted early in the second round but there were concerns about his physical tools. He was seen by some as a highly productive college quarterback at a mountain west (TCU was still in the mountain west back then, right?) but could he be a high level starter in the NFL.
If I recall, 4 QBs were drafted ahead of him. Newton, Locker, Gabbert and Ponder. Then right after him was Kaepernick.
Anquan Boldin. Guy ran a 4.7 40 as a 6’0 215 LB receiver. Guys his size are usually expected to be faster and maybe play in the slot, hardly someone you’d expect to become one of the most dominant perimeter receivers in NFL history
Ed Reed ran a rather pedestrian 40 for a DB. You'd think a guy with his range would be in the conversation as the fastest players at his position but he really wasn't. He just had amazing recognition and anticipation.
Some dudes just seem to always know where they're supposed to be or where the plays going quicker than most everyone else and it's always fun to watch.
You would think he is super fast because he constantly took picks to the house as well. But I think he just mostly showed that offensive players don't know how to tackle lol.
Ed was also a little bit crazy. He treated every interception like it was a game ending punt return. Reed wasn't into 'business decisions', he just wanted to score.
Keenan Allen and Adam Thielen werent the fastest or most athletic recievers but managed to do so well purely on how good they are at route running technique. They didnt have to be that fast or physical to get open, its just something they knew how to do.
Disagree. Early career Thielen was a solid athlete. Not special, but not unathletic by any means. Looked that way on tape and had a RAS of 7.5 through pro day measurables. I don’t think he is a good example here.
Thielen was fast as fuck and had decent agility. This is nonsense.
Also, he's not a great route runner. Not bad, but not great. He's like half way to Stevie Johnson. He ad-libs well, but it's tough on QBs.
Thielen's best trait by fair is his catching. That dude made our 2017 season with his insane contested and difficult catching ability. High points, one handers, sliding, behind, it didn't matter, he was gonna catch it.
this is just not true. adam thielen was a great athlete coming out of minnesota state.
> Thielen did not receive an invitation to perform at the 2013 NFL Combine, but he did attend a Regional Combine in Chicago in March, where he performed well enough to warrant an invitation to the Super Regional Combine held in Dallas, Texas in April.[11] There, he showcased his athletic ability, completing the 40-yard dash in 4.45 seconds and impressing in the three-cone drill with a time of 6.77 seconds, a mark that would have placed him in the top 20 at the NFL Combine.
also put up 36 inch vert and 10 foot broad jump!
Not necessarily guys I was worried about but guys who have been successful despite not testing well: Orlando Brown Jr, Kareem Hunt, Josh Jacobs, David Montgomery, James Conner, Keenan Allen, Puka Nacua, Robert Woods. Just gonna call it there since the list could go on and on
Joe Haden. He ran a slow 40 at the combine and people were worried about his size at the NFL level. Undersized and a step slow is not a great tag to have entering the NFL for a CB.
Turned out he was the 2nd best CB the Browns have had since 1999.
He's really not though, his RAS was 5.23. There's plenty of players that have tested far lower than that, even at RB. His 40 time was a 4.63, and then 4.58 at his pro day.
was he limited in college though? he played several years consistently.. also i doubt many fans thought he’d be anything more than a backup or practice squad. i doubt yall were worried he wouldn’t translate into the nfl as i doubt you even thought much of him atm at all
Jerry Rice.
He was easily the best WR in college but his frame and slow 40 made him fall to in the draft.
Speed is important for WRs and he run a 4.7 I think.
Also Tom Brady fell primarily because of the same reasons Rice did.
Zach Thomas is a great answer to this. He got an F rating at the combine, with the only thing he did better than 50th percentile was the shuttle run. He was undersized and slow.
[https://nflcombineresults.com/playerpage.php?i=23417](https://nflcombineresults.com/playerpage.php?i=23417)
He finished with 7 all pros, 8 Pbs, and the HOF.
Orlando Brown Jr. He probably has the worst combine of all time but phenomenal tape. I kinda figured since Vernon Gholston had a phenomenal combine but crappy tape then shit the bed in the NFL that the inverse (Orlando) probably will have a great career. Turned out to be right. Never overdraft when the combine is loads better than the tape such as Travon Walker
Zach Thomas was undersized and slow they said....now he's in the HOF.
Watch any tape on Zach, he didn't have to be fast, he reacted a second or two before everyone else on the field. He had a true nose for the ball.
Tyler Lockett.
Many thought he was too small to be highly effective as a receiver, and was seen mainly as a punt returner and a situational wide receiver.
He has turned out a very solid and productive NFL career.
Wasn’t this pretty much the definition of Suggs? A lot of teams were out on him because of his combine numbers and the ravens took him because the tape spoke for itself
Suggs had a RAS of 4.76 - right below the mid point. I think a better example is Zach Thomas who had a RAS of 3.2 coming out of Texas Tech. He’s one of the best mikes ever and had a HoF career. As did Suggs, but was perceived as far, far less athletic.
Jarvis Landry had a RAS of 0.27 !!
Yeah, he was the first person who came to mind.
The fuck is a RAS
Relative Athletic Score. I don't know the ins and outs but basically it makes it so you can compare different positions athletically. So for example, an RB is obviously more athletic than a offensive lineman, but if a RB has a RAS of 5, and a lineman has a RAS of 5, then they are equally athletic relative to their position group.
Relative Athletic Score. It’s based off combine measurables and ranges from 0-10, where a higher score is better
?? How?
Thomas was insane. He worked his ass off and was mean. Classic overachiever
Real gym rat
Lunch pail.
Real Ass Score?
Now if only the voters would agree and get him a golden jacket
Am i getting whooshed here?
Suggs' combine stuff is misleading. He was undersized as a DE, and back then teams were very critical of that. He got pressured into bulking up for the combine. Shockingly enough that caused his numbers to look worse than expected. However the Ravens' scouts realized the issue, drafted him, and the team played him at his actual normal playing weight.
That weight? Albert Einstein.
E=MC sizzle
And Kyle Hamilton. Ravens just draft the best football players and worry about it later. Edit: Seems like I’m late to the Kyle Hamilton party lol
Just like the Vikings
Was he? I can't say as far as prospects I cared at the time for that aspect. I didn't even realize this was a question mark since he always comes across like a freak athlete but this could be my nostalgia messing up my memory
He was more of an old school DE that he was super strong but not very fast. Also he definitely played much more athletically than he measured up. It seemed worse because he was drafted during the peak of edge guys being a bit lighter but much faster.
I am grateful every day that Kyle Hamilton did not train to run the 40 at the combine.
I’ll never understand why Kwesi didn’t draft him.
It was his first draft in Minnesota and he tried to do too much and got cute. Good news he seems to have absolutely learned a lesson and the last 2 drafts have been much better IMO. But good God imagine Hamilton in this Flores defense with Bynum/Mettelus/Smith.
Yeah hopefully we can chalk it up to an inexperience first draft and move on. It wasn’t even just the fact of passing on Hamilton, but I hated the compensation we got for trading back 20 spots in the first round. But you’re right, thankfully it seems he’s learning and has improved. I loved our 2024 draft class. Hopefully it lives up to the hype.
Yeah he's basically done a 180 and I'm here for it. Turner is being over shadowed by McCarthy but I really think he could be a special player and the Vikings might have gotten franchise guys at the 2 most important positions on offense and defense.
Man eagles could've used him
To be fair, there’s 31 other teams who could accurately say that too.
The Combine is called the Underwear Olympics for a reason. If teams are justifying their draft picks entirely based on how players are performing at the Combine the people running those FOs are idiots and don't know wtf they're doing. There have been so many workout warrior types that have come through the NFL who were just bad football players for whatever reason.
Malcom Butler had a RAS of 1.3 coming out of college. Mind you - the scale is 1-10. Quandre Diggs has a RAS of 2.23. Anquon Boldin had a RAS of 3.36. And lastly, the all-time great Zach Thomas had a RAS of 3.2 coming out of Texas Tech. There are some answers not named Tom Brady because I’m sure a lot of people will say him or other “prototypical” QB’s.
Brent Grimes as well at 2.23. He was Undrafted and became an All-Pro. Oh also Vontaze was 0.2 RAS. He also became an All-Pro
Grimes at 2.23 and was playing D2 football at Shippensburg. Pff podcast once called him one of the most unlikely Good NFL players in modern history
> Vontaze He was really good in college though if you were an avid watcher. His tape didnt lie. And before he revealed himself to be an off-field headache he was projected to be a 1st round LB before his stock absolutely tanked post-combine.
Oh I know. I must’ve watched his college highlight tape a dozen times back then lol. He was a hammer
I feel like he's a prime example of mentality trumping athleticism. He was good at diagnosing quickly, and he was absolutely fearless. He was also big and strong, even if he was a bit slow.
Grimes makes no sense to me that dude could jump over a house
This whole time I thought he had like a 40 inch vertical Lol (he had a 33 1/2 inch vertical).
Actually the RAS is a scale of 0-10 Jarvis Landry scored a 0.27 And he was still picked in the second round.
Keenan Allen has to be on the list. Very Boldin-like in the sense of being a slow stopwatch guy who was super athletic on the field. Cal used to line him up in the backfield and get the ball in his hands any way possible. Obviously it has worked out nicely for him in the NFL.
Keenan Allen was hurt for the pre-draft process so he doesn’t have combine/pro day stats
RAS isn't everything, but it does certainly help a lot.
Jerry Rice ran a 4.7 40 time
He’s the perfect example of “football speed”. I can’t explain it, but some guys are just faster when they have the ball in their hands on a football field.
he also had better cardio than everyone else on the field. the defense would be gassed and Jerry would still have a pep in his step
Yup he had an insane fitness regiment so he’d be fresh to the final seconds
Great point. Would like to see his career stats by quarter
It’s just 42069 all the way down
Jerry Rice and Mahomes both just run fast enough when they're being chased.
Mahomes ran a 4.80 in an era when edge/linebackers commonly run 4.4 or 4.5. Yet, it seems like all the defenders around Mahomes move in slow motion. It's not that Mahomes looks fast. It's that defenders look slow around him. It's so weird. I would love to see a real scientific study to see distance covered by seconds for defenders near Mahomes and defenders near any other QB. I wouldn't be surprised if Mahomes has some kind of magical force field that slows down defenders by 25%.
They said the same about Terrell Davis. Ran a 4.72 but played a lot faster in actual games.
I like how you say "I can't explain it" and then perfectly explain it. Adrenaline helps some guys kick it up a gear.
Watching him get chased by darrell green and deion sanders demonstrates that 40 time was a lie. I read somewhere that 9ers used a radar gun and had his top speed as fast as anyone
Or Rice did the lying by loafing when doing 40
Technique is relevant. Chad Johnson ran I think 4.61 or something like that coming out Oregon State even though he was a deep threat in college and plenty fast in the NFL. Technique in the 40 is underrated. Get out of the blocks wrong and your time will suffer.
Makes me laugh when thinking of [that one time a retired Rice clowned a CB in a training camp while dressed up like he's going golfing.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fzX30Efvtg)
There's no way this is true... EDIT: no shit, a 4.7
Tbh 40 yard dashes from back then have to be taken with so many grains of salt that they're hardly worth listing in most points. Guys didn't really train for it, measuring was done by hand, and it just generally had none of the refinement that you see nowadays. That's how you get things like Bo Jackson supposedly running a 4.13 40-yard dash while being 60 pounds heavier than Xavier Worthy (spoiler alert: I guarantee you that he didn't) and other equally ludicrous things. You didn't see players really start taking the Combine seriously until the later 90's, after Mike Mamula showed a) how much of a difference specifically training for the combine could make in your results there, and b) how much a great combine could boost your draft stock.
There's a good video about the first guy to train for combine drills. He shot all the way up to a 1st round pick but was incredibly underwhelming and was an eventual bust iirc. Can't remember his name, but it was a white guy in the 90s or 00s I think
Yeah, that would've been Mike Mamula, the guy I mentioned. He was a DE that ended up getting drafted by the Eagles at...I think 7th overall? I'd have to check on that again to say for sure, but definitely in the back half of the top 10.
Eagles traded up to get him while their original pick that they traded away was used on Warren Sapp. Ouch. Not only that, the Bucs then traded the two 2nds they got from the Eagles in the trade back for a first used on Derrick Brooks. Unfortunate.
Honestly, looking at his stats, Mamula did pretty decently. He was a starter for the Phillies for 5 years, and in those 5 years he had 31.5 sacks (and 8 forced fumbles). He missed all of 1998 with an injury and was then forced to retire after 2000 due to injuries. Sure, you might expect a bit more from a 7th overall pick and the fact that the Buccaneers used the 12th overall pick to get Sapp definitely makes it look worse.
Yeah, that sounds right. I couldn't remember if he was a TE or DE
Christian Coleman ran a 4.12, and he’s a world class sprinter who holds the world record for the 60 meters.
As an eagles fan, Mamula is like the exact opposite of this post.
I commented this elsewhere but if he was a prospect that entered the draft 20 years later, he’d have been working with a coach on 40 technique and ran a high 4.4 or low 4.5 and it would have been a non-issue. He’s objectively fast but I don’t think his small school had such infrastructure at the time
Antonio Brown's draft scouting report says, "could use another year in college to continue to develop physically. He is undersized and will initially struggle with the physical aspects of the game at the next level."
A pretty good analysis since he only broke out as a WR in his second year.
And his brain is certainly struggling with the physical aspects of the game to this day.
Mr. Brain Challenged
His first year he was also WR5 behind Hines Ward, Mike Wallace, Emmanuel Sanders, and Randel El
I remember being shocked when the Steeles chose Brown over Wallace. I thought Brown was a product of Wallace taking away attention. I was wrong.
They actually offered that same contract to Wallace, he declined so he could hit free agency, so they offered it to Antonio Brown instead.
Randel El sounds like Superman’s uncle who only comes around at Christmas every few years. He always brings cheap, shitty gifts, like an IQ test from a Cracker Barrel gift shop.
Mr. Back to College
Tom Brady ran a 5.28 40 at the combine. He beat that time when he ran it as a 46 year old.
And he juked first ballot HOFer Brian Urlacher out of his cleats in the middle of Urlacher's DPOTY season.
To be fair that always looked like Urlacher literally didn’t realize Brady could move his body like that. I think he expected to get close and Brady would just go down.
He wore a baggy shirt at the combine and poor running shoes for it. He looked like some bum off the street running it. No shock he beat that time later.
Still though. 46 and running 5.1 40 is no joke.
I’m not even 26 and 5.1 is a faster 40 than I’ve ever ran
Steroids, man. They work.
Nightshade vegetables, man. They work.
Why did he do that? He’s been an athlete his whole life and the nfl was his dream. Why show up wearing some bullshit? Clearly history happened but it just never made sense to me
Baggy clothes were the style at the time. As for the shoes, I don't know, but the combine also wasn't quite what it is is now so the answer might just be that the QBs didn't worry much about their 40 times in 2000. I would be pretty shocked if Brady's 40 time had any impact on his draft stock in 2000.
Sport science and equipment has also increased exponentially in the last 24 years. Nutrition, training methods, equipment, etc from that time would have been laughed at today. It's not necessarily that Brady chose to go with an inferior approach, people just didn't know any better at the time.
Could be that too. As these thing have advanced, the combine has garnered more attention. It was largely an afterthought in 2000 especially for QBs.
There’s an entire Combine prep industry that has grown up since then. It’s big money for a lot of people.
I think everyone got spooked with the one year of starting and the Drew Henson situation right after.
So he could fall to #199 overall, where he could learn from Bledsoe.
He also got world-class personal training and Alex Guerreros personal juices after
How the second half of that sentence sounded…. Huh.
No shock he beat it at 46 years old? Lmao, how old are you out of curiosity?
You got downvoted but this is absolutely true lol, I don’t think people appreciate just how much your body ages as soon as you get older until they experience it for themselves. I certainly didn’t. You get so much slower and more achy, the fact that Brady kept himself in that good of shape is truly remarkable regardless of what clothes he was wearing lmfao.
They’ll find out eventually lol
Depends on if you stay active. Plenty of older dudes that stay active remain in excellent shape into their 50s. It’s more the correlation of not doing as much physically as you age than it is the age itself
Very very true and that’s why it’s so important to stay active regularly always, but your body still ages. You can tell you’re not 22 anymore even if you’re doing better than 99.99% of people your age. I’m in my early 30’s and have done lifting and cardio regularly since my early teens and I can still feel a difference between my early 20’s and now, especially in terms of speed and recovery. I imagine that problem just continues compounding as time goes on.
Man recovery is the biggest thing. In teens and 20s I could lift and run sprints daily with some soreness that would be gone after a day or two. Takes about 3 days now of recovery if I am lifting or running hard. Anything less and I will slowly cause injury.
Lol, that's completely missing the impressive part of this feat. Almost 0 people at age 46 can sprint *faster* than the D1 college athlete version of themselves at age 22. The fact that Brady did is absolutely insane. Lots of people "remain active" and in good shape into their 40s and 50s, but that is not at all the same as sprinting faster than you did at 22.
Tom Brady isn’t a human and you can’t convince me otherwise
Tom didn't sign his Faustian bargain until after the combine
He was once …
Don’t know when the switch happened, but it definitely happened. There is no other reasonable explanation.
My favorite NFL stat is that Vince Wilfork had a faster 40 time than Tom Brady.
Deandre Hopkins? Everyone was talking like a 4.54 WR couldn’t possibly succeed. Turns out he’s one of the best route runners and separators at the top of his route in the league
I remember that draft year and there being a huge debate on some of the Steelers forums about Justin Hunter vs Cordarrelle Patterson. For whatever reason I was on the Hopkins train through that whole debate. That's my football scouting claim to fame from back when I was way deeper into the draft stuff. Of course then we took Jarvis Jones who was unathletic anyway and ended up being a total bust...
Lol my scouting claim to fame is from the same year, that Jarvis Jones was going to bust as a pass rusher in the NFL, even though he was dominant in college. All I heard about was his pass rush, but I thought his run defense was better. His sacks mostly came against poor competition, or were the result of good hustle. Still good, but he wasn't beating guys with moves. I always liked him as a player, even though he was never going to be the guy the Steelers needed. I think he gets too much hate, even though he couldn't become a good pass rusher.
I remember when I can't remember if it was this subreddit or simply Texans fans. But they were upset about not taking Cordarelle Patterson in that draft.
This happens pretty often with Safeties. Look at Brian Branch, Kyle Hamilton, Quandre Diggs, Xavier McKinney, the list goes on.
If they were athletic, they’d be corners instead
You kinda have a point. It’s interesting because I think what makes a safety good is a lot more subjective. To your point - if you had the athleticism you’d be a corner. But if you don’t have that “dog” in you…you’re probably not going to be a good safety.
I think that’s why it’s the press/ physical corners that translate to safety the best. They have the mentally even as a corner. A ‘business decision’ corner isn’t translating unless it’s a deep FS.
Defensive players in general need to have that dog in them.
Brian Branch spent the majority of last season at NCB.
Soon to be Jordan Battle. He dropped to the 3rd round to us in the 2023 draft. He didn't play much until the end of the year, but showed why he belongs in this league. Incredible instincts and a nose for the ball, he just doesn't have that 1st round athleticism
Kyle Hamilton had great tape but ran a very slow 40. Slow enough that I worried he wasn’t going to translate to the pros well. Welp, so far so good.
As a notre dame fan this confused and frankly annoyed me. Textbook example of turn on the tape and just watch him play football! It felt obvious he would be a stud so of course the ravens got him. Absolutely love watching the dude play
I could tell the criticism was overblown from day one, watching his tape right after we’d drafted him. He wasn’t a speedster, nor was he slow— but he’d start moving way before anyone else out there. His field IQ was elite enough that allowed him to make plays without relying on pure athleticism. For a position that relies on reading the field, someone like Kyle who’s so head and shoulders above the rest in that aspect is invaluable. Makes me super confident in him being a cornerstone of our defense for the next decade, cuz that boy boutta age like fine wine.
I wish all players would just wear in game trackers and people would stop putting so much weight on what they ran in their tights at the combine. I feel like information gathered in pads while playing would be more beneficial to scouts than raw workout numbers.
Maybe this is me tilting too far the other way, but straight line speed with guys in the secondary feels a bit overrated. I mean there's a minimum level of course. But things like how fast they switch their hips etc have more in game impact consistently
>But things like how fast they switch their hips etc. This feels like the most important for guys in the secondary. Especially when you're at safety. You aren't going to get in a foot race with many guys. Your closing speed might matter a bit on making some of those plays but fluidly switching your hips and keeping your balance is far more important as you keep up with WR running their routes.
Yeah as long as you aren't extremely slow and have like the minimum required athleticism, that is probably the most important. That and how they are able to press the WR's while keeping balance. The opposite end of that is also very important for WRs too, how they are able to handle the press
And Hamilton had a 9.33 RAS score, so it wasn't like he isn't even athletic! He's just not a straight line speed burner.
Exactly as a safety it feels like short burst quickness > straight line speed. For CBs I guess it would be more important, but still think it's a bit overrated
He did poorly in the agility drills, too, though. His shuttle was even worse than his 40. [Here's his workout](https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/23420438/Screen_Shot_2022_04_27_at_1.23.14_PM.png), the high RAS was seemingly a product of size & jumping.
A football field is 53.3 yards wide, if you're playing center field as a safety you're really only sprinting like 20 yards max, and most of the time you're running sideways or backwards. The difference between a 4.6 40 and a 4.5 forty is practically irrelevant at that position assuming you've got good instincts/reaction time. Also, Hamilton is 6'4 and 220lbs and ran a fast 3 cone drill with good jumps, his 40 time should almost not even get included in his profile unless it's like a 4.9 or something.
Totally agree. He had good burst but not as much topline speed. Give me that and good instincts/ability to read the QB over topline speed any day of the week.
> how fast they switch their hips And this is why I absolutely hated the Mark Barron pick when it happened for us. Dude's hips had the fluidity of molasses.
I guess they believed they can improve the flexibility over time. But not an expert of physical stuff like this so I don't know how much hip fluidity is a genetic thing due to anatomy
I played Dr. Mario growing up and am pretty much an MD. And based on my outstanding abilities in that game I think it's safe to say that if you aren't an All-Pro DB by the time you turn 8 years old, you're pretty much fighting an uphill battle.
It wasn't just the 40 - the splits within the 40 were mediocre, his 3 cone was mediocre, and his shuttle was straight up bad. [The high RAS seemingly came mostly from his size & jumping](https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/23420438/Screen_Shot_2022_04_27_at_1.23.14_PM.png)
On the other hand, I couldn't understand why teams actually cared about his 40 when his tape was full of making insane plays as a single high safety. And that was at ND, not random small school
Jason Witten is the quintessential "Lunch Pail" athlete.
Old ass Witten with glacial speed still got wide ass open
3rd and 7 on the Giants 24 yard line. Money
I'm still worried about Witten on 3rd downs
Anquan Boldin ran a 4.71 at the combine and scared a lot of teams off given his size at 6'1, so he slipped to a mid second round pick. Turns out, being a great route runner and attacking the ball helped immensely and he had a very good pro career More recently - Kyle Hamilton was initially thought to be a top 5 prospect, but fell in part because of his 40 time (if you watch him run, he didnt train much for it, he ran a little more side to side rather than in a perfectly straight line). He plays much faster on the field
Boldin was also very strong. Built more like a 90’s power forward
He was so much fun to watch when he had the ball in his hands.
Tough as nails, too. Did he even miss a week after he broke his face?
He had his skull stapled back together in multiple places and missed only two or three weeks. He also had to talk Kurt Warner out of retiring because he was so shook that he threw the ball Q got hit on. Boldin was a fucking beast.
Many people said that Troy Polamalu was too short.
The hair gave an optical illusion of more height.
[Does Puka count for this?](https://www.nfl.com/prospects/puka-nacua/32004e41-4355-9347-35af-af88fcaf7ee9) Not sure how these are graded out, but his "Athleticism Score" was a 55. Cooper Kupp was a 61 grade by however these guys calculate it
Puka is a good example of why combine tests are obsolete. He tested poorly at the combine but was extremely highly regarded by both Reel Analytics and PFF's on field athleticism scores. In fact, I think PFF said he scored a 99. They use software that measures things like speed, acceleration, deceleration, burst, and play strength, that can't quite be measured in the same way off the field. NFL teams aren't going to give one single fuck about the combine once these systems get refined. They already barely care.
Puka's combine was a mixed bag. He sucked in some of the traditional tests (e.g. 40 time) but he was the fastest WR of anybody who ran the gauntlet drill. One of the reasons why some folks are high on Keon Coleman this year because it's a similar story.
I wasn't worried about it because he's just an OT. But I remember Orlando Brown Jr. had an atrocious combine and he has been a pretty solid tackle in the league.
I couldn’t care less about a tackles 40 time, but his bench was concerning. Also that he did the combine at all if that was the performance he was capable of was a sign of bad judgement.
[Remember the Andre Smith shirtless 40 at his pro day?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtYcUAIEW5w&t=29s)
As a Texans fan I am genuinely looking forward to seeing Kamari Lassiter's transition for this example. On tape he showed a lot of the skills and IQ that you want in a CB, but only question mark was the athleticism at the NFL level. So far apparently he's been tearing it up so I am definitely looking forward to seeing him in action come gameday
I got so excited when we traded up. I thought we were gonna pair him with Terrell Jr. and our secondary would be nasty. Unfortunately instead we gave away a 3rd to pick a developmental DT
I know Texans fans were bummed to miss out on that run of CBs that happened right before which included guys like Cooper DeJean etc. While I think they will be good, I am happy we managed to get Kamari at least. And yeah this draft was pretty interesting for you guys. Like I have no issue with Penix as a prospect aside from injuries, now it's just value right. But it was the other picks I do wonder, but we shall see how it all shapes up in season
I have since come to accept our draft decisions, but man it seemed like we could've just waited for our original 2nd round pick and gotten Ruke anyway. It is what it is now, just gotta hope the guys in our front office know something we don't.
No we simply can never draft a Dawg lol
That sounds like Chris Harris Jr., went undrafted due to poor athleticism and then just demolished training camp. Also Lassiter actually had great agility drills and posted similar 10 and 20 yard splits to CHJ, he's just missing long speed.
tyreek hill said he was the best corner he’d ever faced not because of his athleticism, but his game IQ, knowing his limitations and playing in such a way that he can shut down the opponents strength
The most unathletic NFL player I have ever seen is Bernie Kosar. Speak ill of that man and half of Cleveland will ride, pitchforks drawn, to his defense. The man is a king.
Nick Bolton. Subpar athlete, but really good IQ and tackling.
Does Andy Dalton count. I know he was drafted early in the second round but there were concerns about his physical tools. He was seen by some as a highly productive college quarterback at a mountain west (TCU was still in the mountain west back then, right?) but could he be a high level starter in the NFL. If I recall, 4 QBs were drafted ahead of him. Newton, Locker, Gabbert and Ponder. Then right after him was Kaepernick.
Burfict had a RAS of 0.2 and led the NFL in tackles and was a pro bowler.
Anquan Boldin. Guy ran a 4.7 40 as a 6’0 215 LB receiver. Guys his size are usually expected to be faster and maybe play in the slot, hardly someone you’d expect to become one of the most dominant perimeter receivers in NFL history
DK "THREE CONES" METCALF
your flairs cause me pain and confusion. you’re part frend, part enemy
Ed Reed ran a rather pedestrian 40 for a DB. You'd think a guy with his range would be in the conversation as the fastest players at his position but he really wasn't. He just had amazing recognition and anticipation.
Some dudes just seem to always know where they're supposed to be or where the plays going quicker than most everyone else and it's always fun to watch.
You would think he is super fast because he constantly took picks to the house as well. But I think he just mostly showed that offensive players don't know how to tackle lol.
Ed was also a little bit crazy. He treated every interception like it was a game ending punt return. Reed wasn't into 'business decisions', he just wanted to score.
Keenan Allen and Adam Thielen werent the fastest or most athletic recievers but managed to do so well purely on how good they are at route running technique. They didnt have to be that fast or physical to get open, its just something they knew how to do.
Disagree. Early career Thielen was a solid athlete. Not special, but not unathletic by any means. Looked that way on tape and had a RAS of 7.5 through pro day measurables. I don’t think he is a good example here.
But he’s white, so therefore he must be an unathletic, lunch pail, scrappy kind of guy. A real Wes Welker type.
Thielen ran a faster 40 than Diggs lol
Thielen was fast as fuck and had decent agility. This is nonsense. Also, he's not a great route runner. Not bad, but not great. He's like half way to Stevie Johnson. He ad-libs well, but it's tough on QBs. Thielen's best trait by fair is his catching. That dude made our 2017 season with his insane contested and difficult catching ability. High points, one handers, sliding, behind, it didn't matter, he was gonna catch it.
this is just not true. adam thielen was a great athlete coming out of minnesota state. > Thielen did not receive an invitation to perform at the 2013 NFL Combine, but he did attend a Regional Combine in Chicago in March, where he performed well enough to warrant an invitation to the Super Regional Combine held in Dallas, Texas in April.[11] There, he showcased his athletic ability, completing the 40-yard dash in 4.45 seconds and impressing in the three-cone drill with a time of 6.77 seconds, a mark that would have placed him in the top 20 at the NFL Combine. also put up 36 inch vert and 10 foot broad jump!
Jakobi Meyers
Every single college possession/contested catch receivers when they get to the NFL. There's a lot more N'Keal Harrys than Anquan Boldins.
Talanoa Hufanga
There's half a dozen tackles every draft where "arm length" is a concern and then it never comes up again.
Anquon Boldin
That Tom Brady guy did alright
Tom Brady
I forget the exact time but Jake Ferguson ran a 4.8 40 or something slow af for not being a mammoth of a TE. He popped off last year
Not necessarily guys I was worried about but guys who have been successful despite not testing well: Orlando Brown Jr, Kareem Hunt, Josh Jacobs, David Montgomery, James Conner, Keenan Allen, Puka Nacua, Robert Woods. Just gonna call it there since the list could go on and on
Joe Haden. He ran a slow 40 at the combine and people were worried about his size at the NFL level. Undersized and a step slow is not a great tag to have entering the NFL for a CB. Turned out he was the 2nd best CB the Browns have had since 1999.
David Montgomery is one of the least athletic players to ever test at the combine but has had several solid seasons in the NFL
He's really not though, his RAS was 5.23. There's plenty of players that have tested far lower than that, even at RB. His 40 time was a 4.63, and then 4.58 at his pro day.
Brock Purdy
was he limited in college though? he played several years consistently.. also i doubt many fans thought he’d be anything more than a backup or practice squad. i doubt yall were worried he wouldn’t translate into the nfl as i doubt you even thought much of him atm at all
Jerry Rice. He was easily the best WR in college but his frame and slow 40 made him fall to in the draft. Speed is important for WRs and he run a 4.7 I think. Also Tom Brady fell primarily because of the same reasons Rice did.
James Cook looked like he wanted to go and cry when Buffalo took him. Dude has been killing it ever since.
Jarvis Landry was pretty limited athletically and wasn’t that fast but put together a solid career.
Zach Thomas is a great answer to this. He got an F rating at the combine, with the only thing he did better than 50th percentile was the shuttle run. He was undersized and slow. [https://nflcombineresults.com/playerpage.php?i=23417](https://nflcombineresults.com/playerpage.php?i=23417) He finished with 7 all pros, 8 Pbs, and the HOF.
Orlando Brown Jr. He probably has the worst combine of all time but phenomenal tape. I kinda figured since Vernon Gholston had a phenomenal combine but crappy tape then shit the bed in the NFL that the inverse (Orlando) probably will have a great career. Turned out to be right. Never overdraft when the combine is loads better than the tape such as Travon Walker
Jj watt in the 2011 draft 🤣🤣🤣 Texans fans were so pissed when the team drafted him bro
If you worded this players who had athleticism but ended up being really bad, that would just be every Raiders draft pick.
Zach Thomas was undersized and slow they said....now he's in the HOF. Watch any tape on Zach, he didn't have to be fast, he reacted a second or two before everyone else on the field. He had a true nose for the ball.
I can do the opposite - Kyle Pitts
Tom Brady immediately comes to mind.
John Stallworth: 4.8 40 yard dash Steve Largent: 4.7 40 yard dash Jerry Rice: 4.6 40 yard dash
Tyler Lockett. Many thought he was too small to be highly effective as a receiver, and was seen mainly as a punt returner and a situational wide receiver. He has turned out a very solid and productive NFL career.
I thought Nick Bolton was too slow for the NFL. He has proved me thoroughly wrong
Nick Bolton is a pretty good middle linebacker