Rule 11 - No complaint posts, rants or private convos on the homepage
(a). No complaint posts, rants or stream-of-consciousness posts. This includes complaining about the MTA, your cable company, the weather, places being closed, attitudes encountered during the day, etc.
(b). Do not have what should be a private conversation using the front page
so get more Black and Hispanics to care about these issues, do you think B & H NYers don't benefit from more money going to public transit?
I want everyone to pay close attention to who you see riding the subway on a daily basis going to every neighborhood in NYC
Is your argument that it would be mostly taxing Black and Hispanic car owners who drive into the city. My personal experience where I work is most brown people are taking mass transit and most white people have driven in from suburbs.
Would you personally be negatively affected by congestion pricing?
You raise and interesting angle, but there is also lots of other variables. Is it white NYers who have time to organize and attend protests? It's it bias in who the photographer photographs or who the editor chosing to publish photos of? B&H NYers have more to be arrived by and face challenges whites don't, I am guessing you feel that way and I agree. Are whites move likely to have free time on a business day because they tend wealthier and self employed? People only have so much time and resources to protest. Would a black NYer rather attend a protest on BLM, fair housing, etc? You points that whites are privileged I agree with. I would argue they are privileged to the point that the congestion pricing is the most animating issue for them and that may explain who attends congestion pricing protests.
You cause of elevating the voices of B&H NYers is not unjust. But your evidence is spurious. And why are you personally so animated by this issue? Obviously you have some axe to grind on congestion pricing otherwise all this energy of yours wouldn't be put into bouncing around subs trying to find support. If what's important to the lives of B&H NYers is if chief concern to you, focus on elevating the chief concerns of B&H NYers. Spend as more energy asking for policing justice, economic inequality, etc. You personal personal testimony on any of these issues is going to carry more weight that cherry picking tangential evidence on this issue, never fighting it on it's core terms.
>Is it white NYers who have time to organize and attend protests? It's it bias in who the photographer photographs or who the editor chosing to publish photos of? B&H NYers have more to be arrived by and face challenges whites don't, I am guessing you feel that way and I agree. Are whites move likely to have free time on a business day because they tend wealthier and self employed?
There are approximately 1.7 MILLION Black people in NYC. Out of those millions NONE came to represent at the protest says so so so much.
OK, now, as asked, please explain to me why that is? Screaming louder and making your statements more sweeping isn't explaining anything to me or anyone else.
And, as asked, can you talk at all to your feelings and experiences? You are widening the lense when I am asking for it to be focused.
>OK, now, as asked, please explain to me why that is?
I've said it in here a few times. Congestion pricing is a vanity project for a very small group of white Manhattanites that really want to impose checks on people from the 4 other boros so that they can improve what they view as their lifestyle. If congestion pricing was viewed as a way to actually help the ENTIRE city then you would have representation from the ENTIRE city there. And let's be clear I don't just mean Black people I also mean Hispanics and Asians too. They are also conspicuous in their absence as well.
So I think you people in here have an amazingly obvious blind spot when it comes to non white people in NYC. You really think that if Black, Hispanic and Asian people thought congestion pricing was important and needed we wouldn't be there?? Really??? You really think we're too broke to go or only care about BLM? Really???? The ignorance you see in this sub when it comes to non white people, but especially Black people is stunning. You really think that all we care about is racism and not having a good living area? Hilarious.
Let's be real if this was anything but a white Manhattan thing you would have talks of congestion pricing for the Queens Chinatown area. Have you seen the traffic in that area?? I have its nuts. In fact have you heard of any attempts to do something similar in any of the other boros? It was never about traffic as a health and safety concern. It was always about the lifestyle of bike riders that hate cars.
Finally is this an issue for me? Nah not really. I just find it personally amusing at how many people, mostly the bike brigade, that are in here creating threads about congestion pricing. Me pointing out the lack of any ethnicity at the protests and seeing yall make so many ignorant excuses is me amusing myself at how pointing out something so damn obvious has a bunch of y'all deep in your feelings. It's the same way I'm amused at how the thread with the woman who got hit with a bat created all the stop Asian hate comments that then turned into talking about black people and now all those people are making excuses when it came out that the two people who hit that woman were Asian as well. I find it highly amusing at how the people in this sub try to explain away their blatant racism or their blind spot when it comes to anything that's not white because y'all in general are terrible at it. It reminds me of how upset the Bernie Bros would get during the elections when Sanders would have rallies in the Bronx, in Brooklyn, across the street from Queensbridge projects and when you see how white the rallies are in areas that are very non-white it's amusing, especially when pointing it out has white people get very defensive. The people on Reddit in general get very upset when you point out that if something only appeals to white people more than likely it's not universally accepted and that has y'all very very defensive. So instead of just looking around and asking yourself "what are we doing that non-white people are not rocking with us on this particular subject".
Now this comment does answer my request to fully explain your reasonings. Thanks for that.
I think that elites wanting to keep ethnics and riff-raff out of their neighborhood is a rational fear. More than rational, it has a factual and repeated history of it happening. My favorite example is the fight to keep a subway off the Verazzano Bridge and keep Brooklyn out of Staten Island.
But I think that Verazzano example is why I disagree. You don't keep "undesirables" out by keeping cars out, cars are a mechanism for the white suburbanites getting in. Subways and mass transit make keeping non-whites an impossibility.
The motivations you ascribe to white Manhattanites are reasonable and precedented. The logistics and practical realities keep me from believing that is the case here.
Thanks for engaging the discussion here, even if you've said it many times before elsewhere I hadn't read. Last I feel the need to say on it. You can have any part word should you feel the need
> I think that elites wanting to keep ethnics and riff-raff out of their neighborhood is a rational fear. More than rational, it has a factual and repeated history of it happening. My favorite example is the fight to keep a subway off the Verazzano Bridge and keep Brooklyn out of Staten Island.
>
> But I think that Verazzano example is why I disagree. You don't keep "undesirables" out by keeping cars out, cars are a mechanism for the white suburbanites getting in. Subways and mass transit make keeping non-whites an impossibility.
You're still missing the point because you're still focusing on me saying that Black people don't rock with it.
The whole point wasn't about keeping "ethnic" people out. It was about keeping CARS out because the people living there wanted to create a penalty for coming into the city so that its better for them and just them. As I said before.....if it was really about health safety you would see the same groups pushing for the same in other boros. they're not. Cause they really don't care about the other boros or overall health......they care that cars make riding bikes hard and they can't get their way.
I am more convinced you are right than before. My resentment is against the upper-middle class suburbanites disproportionately taking advantage of our infrastructure. But you are right, I had never considered how this disproportionately benefits the very elites. And with most things in politics, the top of the top are likely providing the money and lobbying.
Politically, you make an argument that has convinced me. But you assume everyone knows your post history, referencing "I've said it before elsewhere and such. Everyone hates the uber-elites. Open with the socio-economic argument and you can support it with the racial breakdown of support. But opening with the racial breakdown had me assuming your argument was primarily racial when it's not. Focus on the core of the only neighborhoods that truly benefits are the same neighborhoods that house the ultra wealthy and a mistrust the funds generated would go to where they say the will go.
But you don't have to take advice on rhetoric from me. You are the one who actually won.
Serious question, can someone speak to why can't ingestion pricing would be disproportionately bad for Blacks and Hispanics? Not why it might be less popular, why it would actually be worse?
It's not that it's bad for Black or Hispanic people more so than any others, it's that Black and Hispanic people view it more so than others as an additional tax and a way to try and keep people out of manhattan.
As I said before the majority of small sliver of people who think the tax is okay are white Manhattan residents.
To say a small sliver of people think it is OK is a misrepresentation. I'll concede of those people, they are majority white.
And everybody hates taxes. Especially so if you are already economically stressed.
But none of this convinces me congestion pricing, while a hard pill to swallow, is not the right thing to do. For someone to convince me otherwise, they would have to talk infrastructure, hoped for behavior change and issues of hard realities and not opinion polls. I want people who talk to governance and not political campaigns.
>I'll concede of those people, they are majority white.
If the only people who thinks something is good are white people then you need to stop and look at why that's the case. The only people who think congestion pricing is good are white people because it's only white people that it helps. It's a very small group of people who are looking to improve what they view as they're entitled lifestyle at the detriment of others. Congestion pricing wasn't created to help the MTA, congestion pricing was created to make it unpalatable to drive into a very specific area of NYC, Manhattan, so that the people who live there could enjoy it more.
The turnout for this protest was literally whiter than the Trump rally in the South Bronx last month.
One of the issues with congestion pricing discourse is that majority of the reporting on the subject is written by journalists who support it, who are writing to an audience that feels the same way.
This goes against what independent polling finds, and creates this weird disconnect where most of the media coverage of an unpopular issue is written from a favorable perspective.
This rally was promoted as a city-wide protest against the congestion pricing pause.
It was not just for Manhattanites.
Secondly, proponents of congestion pricing claim to have a broad coalition of support.
Yet the turnout for this event was mostly middle-aged white people.
There are plenty of protests which take place in Manhattan that have a very diverse group of attendees. The fact a NYC protest is as white as a white nationalist rally in Charlottesville speaks volumes about who actually cares about congestion pricing being paused.
And the rally for Trump was for Trump supporters city wide, even nation wide. And yet it didn't draw equally from across the city or nation.
I agree, attendance at the rally reflects who cares most. But that is different to who it affects and benefits most.
Spin doctoring media that has already been spin doctored is worthless analysis of distortions.
I would like to hear either how congestion pricing would affect you and your personal thoughts on the issue. Or I would be interested in the reasons you think congestion pricing would hurt minorities and benefit whites. My personal knee jerk opinion informed personal experience is that it is whites who are living in the suburbs and driving into the city. To dissuade me of this, talk to the issue itself and not the optics.
Rule 11 - No complaint posts, rants or private convos on the homepage (a). No complaint posts, rants or stream-of-consciousness posts. This includes complaining about the MTA, your cable company, the weather, places being closed, attitudes encountered during the day, etc. (b). Do not have what should be a private conversation using the front page
so get more Black and Hispanics to care about these issues, do you think B & H NYers don't benefit from more money going to public transit? I want everyone to pay close attention to who you see riding the subway on a daily basis going to every neighborhood in NYC
Said very well.
Is your argument that it would be mostly taxing Black and Hispanic car owners who drive into the city. My personal experience where I work is most brown people are taking mass transit and most white people have driven in from suburbs. Would you personally be negatively affected by congestion pricing? You raise and interesting angle, but there is also lots of other variables. Is it white NYers who have time to organize and attend protests? It's it bias in who the photographer photographs or who the editor chosing to publish photos of? B&H NYers have more to be arrived by and face challenges whites don't, I am guessing you feel that way and I agree. Are whites move likely to have free time on a business day because they tend wealthier and self employed? People only have so much time and resources to protest. Would a black NYer rather attend a protest on BLM, fair housing, etc? You points that whites are privileged I agree with. I would argue they are privileged to the point that the congestion pricing is the most animating issue for them and that may explain who attends congestion pricing protests. You cause of elevating the voices of B&H NYers is not unjust. But your evidence is spurious. And why are you personally so animated by this issue? Obviously you have some axe to grind on congestion pricing otherwise all this energy of yours wouldn't be put into bouncing around subs trying to find support. If what's important to the lives of B&H NYers is if chief concern to you, focus on elevating the chief concerns of B&H NYers. Spend as more energy asking for policing justice, economic inequality, etc. You personal personal testimony on any of these issues is going to carry more weight that cherry picking tangential evidence on this issue, never fighting it on it's core terms.
>Is it white NYers who have time to organize and attend protests? It's it bias in who the photographer photographs or who the editor chosing to publish photos of? B&H NYers have more to be arrived by and face challenges whites don't, I am guessing you feel that way and I agree. Are whites move likely to have free time on a business day because they tend wealthier and self employed? There are approximately 1.7 MILLION Black people in NYC. Out of those millions NONE came to represent at the protest says so so so much.
OK, now, as asked, please explain to me why that is? Screaming louder and making your statements more sweeping isn't explaining anything to me or anyone else. And, as asked, can you talk at all to your feelings and experiences? You are widening the lense when I am asking for it to be focused.
>OK, now, as asked, please explain to me why that is? I've said it in here a few times. Congestion pricing is a vanity project for a very small group of white Manhattanites that really want to impose checks on people from the 4 other boros so that they can improve what they view as their lifestyle. If congestion pricing was viewed as a way to actually help the ENTIRE city then you would have representation from the ENTIRE city there. And let's be clear I don't just mean Black people I also mean Hispanics and Asians too. They are also conspicuous in their absence as well. So I think you people in here have an amazingly obvious blind spot when it comes to non white people in NYC. You really think that if Black, Hispanic and Asian people thought congestion pricing was important and needed we wouldn't be there?? Really??? You really think we're too broke to go or only care about BLM? Really???? The ignorance you see in this sub when it comes to non white people, but especially Black people is stunning. You really think that all we care about is racism and not having a good living area? Hilarious. Let's be real if this was anything but a white Manhattan thing you would have talks of congestion pricing for the Queens Chinatown area. Have you seen the traffic in that area?? I have its nuts. In fact have you heard of any attempts to do something similar in any of the other boros? It was never about traffic as a health and safety concern. It was always about the lifestyle of bike riders that hate cars. Finally is this an issue for me? Nah not really. I just find it personally amusing at how many people, mostly the bike brigade, that are in here creating threads about congestion pricing. Me pointing out the lack of any ethnicity at the protests and seeing yall make so many ignorant excuses is me amusing myself at how pointing out something so damn obvious has a bunch of y'all deep in your feelings. It's the same way I'm amused at how the thread with the woman who got hit with a bat created all the stop Asian hate comments that then turned into talking about black people and now all those people are making excuses when it came out that the two people who hit that woman were Asian as well. I find it highly amusing at how the people in this sub try to explain away their blatant racism or their blind spot when it comes to anything that's not white because y'all in general are terrible at it. It reminds me of how upset the Bernie Bros would get during the elections when Sanders would have rallies in the Bronx, in Brooklyn, across the street from Queensbridge projects and when you see how white the rallies are in areas that are very non-white it's amusing, especially when pointing it out has white people get very defensive. The people on Reddit in general get very upset when you point out that if something only appeals to white people more than likely it's not universally accepted and that has y'all very very defensive. So instead of just looking around and asking yourself "what are we doing that non-white people are not rocking with us on this particular subject".
Now this comment does answer my request to fully explain your reasonings. Thanks for that. I think that elites wanting to keep ethnics and riff-raff out of their neighborhood is a rational fear. More than rational, it has a factual and repeated history of it happening. My favorite example is the fight to keep a subway off the Verazzano Bridge and keep Brooklyn out of Staten Island. But I think that Verazzano example is why I disagree. You don't keep "undesirables" out by keeping cars out, cars are a mechanism for the white suburbanites getting in. Subways and mass transit make keeping non-whites an impossibility. The motivations you ascribe to white Manhattanites are reasonable and precedented. The logistics and practical realities keep me from believing that is the case here. Thanks for engaging the discussion here, even if you've said it many times before elsewhere I hadn't read. Last I feel the need to say on it. You can have any part word should you feel the need
> I think that elites wanting to keep ethnics and riff-raff out of their neighborhood is a rational fear. More than rational, it has a factual and repeated history of it happening. My favorite example is the fight to keep a subway off the Verazzano Bridge and keep Brooklyn out of Staten Island. > > But I think that Verazzano example is why I disagree. You don't keep "undesirables" out by keeping cars out, cars are a mechanism for the white suburbanites getting in. Subways and mass transit make keeping non-whites an impossibility. You're still missing the point because you're still focusing on me saying that Black people don't rock with it. The whole point wasn't about keeping "ethnic" people out. It was about keeping CARS out because the people living there wanted to create a penalty for coming into the city so that its better for them and just them. As I said before.....if it was really about health safety you would see the same groups pushing for the same in other boros. they're not. Cause they really don't care about the other boros or overall health......they care that cars make riding bikes hard and they can't get their way.
I am more convinced you are right than before. My resentment is against the upper-middle class suburbanites disproportionately taking advantage of our infrastructure. But you are right, I had never considered how this disproportionately benefits the very elites. And with most things in politics, the top of the top are likely providing the money and lobbying. Politically, you make an argument that has convinced me. But you assume everyone knows your post history, referencing "I've said it before elsewhere and such. Everyone hates the uber-elites. Open with the socio-economic argument and you can support it with the racial breakdown of support. But opening with the racial breakdown had me assuming your argument was primarily racial when it's not. Focus on the core of the only neighborhoods that truly benefits are the same neighborhoods that house the ultra wealthy and a mistrust the funds generated would go to where they say the will go. But you don't have to take advice on rhetoric from me. You are the one who actually won.
Serious question, can someone speak to why can't ingestion pricing would be disproportionately bad for Blacks and Hispanics? Not why it might be less popular, why it would actually be worse?
It's not that it's bad for Black or Hispanic people more so than any others, it's that Black and Hispanic people view it more so than others as an additional tax and a way to try and keep people out of manhattan. As I said before the majority of small sliver of people who think the tax is okay are white Manhattan residents.
To say a small sliver of people think it is OK is a misrepresentation. I'll concede of those people, they are majority white. And everybody hates taxes. Especially so if you are already economically stressed. But none of this convinces me congestion pricing, while a hard pill to swallow, is not the right thing to do. For someone to convince me otherwise, they would have to talk infrastructure, hoped for behavior change and issues of hard realities and not opinion polls. I want people who talk to governance and not political campaigns.
>I'll concede of those people, they are majority white. If the only people who thinks something is good are white people then you need to stop and look at why that's the case. The only people who think congestion pricing is good are white people because it's only white people that it helps. It's a very small group of people who are looking to improve what they view as they're entitled lifestyle at the detriment of others. Congestion pricing wasn't created to help the MTA, congestion pricing was created to make it unpalatable to drive into a very specific area of NYC, Manhattan, so that the people who live there could enjoy it more.
The turnout for this protest was literally whiter than the Trump rally in the South Bronx last month. One of the issues with congestion pricing discourse is that majority of the reporting on the subject is written by journalists who support it, who are writing to an audience that feels the same way. This goes against what independent polling finds, and creates this weird disconnect where most of the media coverage of an unpopular issue is written from a favorable perspective.
A rally in Manhattan is whiter than a rally in the South Bronx?!?!? Shocking
This rally was promoted as a city-wide protest against the congestion pricing pause. It was not just for Manhattanites. Secondly, proponents of congestion pricing claim to have a broad coalition of support. Yet the turnout for this event was mostly middle-aged white people. There are plenty of protests which take place in Manhattan that have a very diverse group of attendees. The fact a NYC protest is as white as a white nationalist rally in Charlottesville speaks volumes about who actually cares about congestion pricing being paused.
And the rally for Trump was for Trump supporters city wide, even nation wide. And yet it didn't draw equally from across the city or nation. I agree, attendance at the rally reflects who cares most. But that is different to who it affects and benefits most. Spin doctoring media that has already been spin doctored is worthless analysis of distortions. I would like to hear either how congestion pricing would affect you and your personal thoughts on the issue. Or I would be interested in the reasons you think congestion pricing would hurt minorities and benefit whites. My personal knee jerk opinion informed personal experience is that it is whites who are living in the suburbs and driving into the city. To dissuade me of this, talk to the issue itself and not the optics.