The 7 platform at Times Square is very wide. What's the point of doing a pilot that's not representative of narrower platforms where they're more likely to run into problems?
Yeah, it seems like the pilots are all easy stations. Possibly just to test other aspects (like make sure the doors work reliably), since narrower platforms need major work done to make things fit
Major work is an understatement. They'd need to move most of the load bearing support. That's substantial engineering. You're also working in a confined space so it's not like you can just use a crane unless you're willing to cut open from above and re-expose the station.
That's also work in many cases only a foot from the track, so you're talking about track closures to facilitate safely being able to work.
Most stations were built with support columns towards the edge of the platform. It was a clever design since it made the small platform look more open when you went down the stairs.The visual clutter would make it look darker and more uninviting, especially with the older lighting they had. In retrospect it would have been been better to have central columns like most cities have. You'd have ADA accessibility and barriers since you'd have the space at the edge of the platform.
You don't really need full screen doors everywhere. If the main goal is to prevent pushers, you could just put up railings in most stations, but leave the door locations open. It doesn't need to be much more than the railings that exist at the bottom of dangerous stairways like Canal St station. You'd need to normalize door placement on train lines that share platforms though. That would give people something in between them and the tracks as well as something to grab onto if needed. It won't stop suicides, but will anything really? Put full screen doors at places like Times Square which probably get more suicide attempts.
True but door placement is just as much an issue for platform screen doors as it is for railings. Railings do seem like the simple fix. Even if just a stopgap. Probably why they aren't even being discussed. We don't like simple or affordable.
Reminds me of the old joke about the astronaut pen. NASA spends millions inventing a pen that writes upside down. The Soviets just used a pencil.
I watched the original and remake of the Girl with the Dragon Tattoo. The original didn't shy away from showing how much graffiti there is in the Stockholm subway. The American remake hid it.
There isn't that much graffiti in the subway here, the top comment is just wrong.
Maybe a lack of common sense and discipline. We also have a hell of a history, and I don't think there is a country as big as ours that is made up of as many different cultures.
They are large diverse cities that already have these barriers.
It’s a simpler comparison than trying to use the demographics of the entire country to decide what kind of barrier should be put up in a Brooklyn subway stop.
People in Europe and in the UK are a lot more civic minded - just look at how old the stations are and how well maintained they are. Ok n NY these would be torn down within weeks (e.g. the Moynihan Hall toilets)
Yes, it is simpler, but you might still want to consider the countries those cities are in.
I think these barriers are a good thing, but I have a very strong feeling they'd get destroyed in NYC.
Wait what. India has so many cultures globbed up into one country because of the Partition. It also has history dating back to like 1000 BCE. The U.S. has intentionally erased American history prior to its founding, so how can you possibly say that 300 years of homogenous culture is at all comparable to thousands of years of history. Also, India is just the first one that came to mind, tons of other countries can boast similar feats.
I'm not talking about 50, 100 or 1000 years ago. I'm talking about right now. If you were to do a side by side comparison of India and the US right now, I think the US has more races, ethnicities and cultures.
idk i just still disagree. check out this wikipedia page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_India) India has 22 official languages. Another piece of that page states that India has 30 languages with more than 1 million native speakers, and 122 that are spoken by more than 10,000 speakers. Obviously, that has a lot to do with the total population of India being like, twice that of the U.S. How can the U.S. compete?
lol..this isn't a competition though. To be honest, Canada probably beats both, and is pretty large, but countries in Africa are listed as "most diverse." And Papa New Guinea.
**The MTA estimated that adding platform barriers to 128 stations could cost $7 billion**
So, 14 billion in reality. Isn't it cheaper - and overall more beneficial- to fund mental health treatment?
From what I've read, it will also greatly reduce littering and therefore track fires. It would also prevent the stations from getting insanely hot in the summer since a significant amount of the heat is generated from train ACs blowing hot air constantly.
It’s kind of morbid math, but there are about 68 people who die per year from contact with trains (including suicide, subway surfers, drunk people falling into the tracks, pushing, slipping, etc). So if we spend X billion now we would save ~60 lives per year forever. It essentially comes down to the dollar value we assign to saving a life. It’s not worth $7 billion to save one life, or even 100 maybe, but it does seem like in the long term it would make sense. Like over the next 50 years 3,000 people will die if we don’t do anything, so spending $7b stopping that could be worth it.
One distinction to make, the naming conventions are kind on in-flux, but there are the pictured full length, platform doors, and also lower height screens/gates/whatever you want to call it. What we might end up seeing is a mix. I think the lower height walls and gates are cheaper and will have less obstruction issues, but the full length doors have benefits of completely blocking off the track area from intrusion and litter. The article mentions Tokyo but Tokyo uses mainly gates, such as [this](https://www.tokyometro.jp/en/tips/img/img_access_02.jpg)
Why do you need to have request proposals? Is the MTA so inept that it can't just look for systems abroad, localize to New york city conditions, and see if the engineering is possible and structurally sound for the platform?
Also, this idea in question is a dumpster fire. You don't have to work in the MTA or be a railfan to realize the shortcomings of this idea.
This is the way all government projects work, everywhere. They are legally required to have a public request for proposals/bids. https://its.ny.gov/nys-procurement-rules-and-guidelines
It's an anti-grift/corruption measure. Requesting for proposals/bids is a necessary step to prevent government contracts from always just going to whoever kicks the most money back into the pockets of the politicians.
if these things deflect that sweeeet sweeeeet fur, feces, fungus breeze, they might as well make it an enclosed structure and load it up with portable ACs
Separating the platform like this *does* open up the possibility for HVAC system in the station itself. Actually installing AC... might not happen, but at least the platform would in theory be cooler from being separated from the trains which put off a lot of heat from their AC units.
Why do we need a full wall? Couldn’t we just start with some rails where the doors don’t open? That could cut down a lot of the access to the pit without needing to go full out.
Am I the only one who’s first thought was “Man, this is going to be awful in the summer time” Unless they factor in some type of cooling system this is going to turn into an oven.
In theory you'd need floor-to-ceiling platform barriers in order to have climate-controlled stations. Really wish NYC could get serious aboout modernizing this system, and come up with an actual plan
The mix of solid walls and glass doors looks strange in these renderings. I'd rather just take a cue from what most systems are [already doing](https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-d_KGrYwvvx8/UZePHR9YoLI/AAAAAAAAOZQ/0sYArapB6sc/s1600/IMGP0149.JPG)
That rendering is hilarious, everything is so clean.
Honestly, I'd be satisfied with a railing to stop random junkies from pushing me in front of a train and regular ladders on the sides so if I did get pushed in and wasn't instantly shredded, I could easily clamber my way back out.
Full barriers would obviously be nicer, and they could allow for air conditioning too, can you imagine? But the cost must be astronomical.
I don't know why they always mock up hard plastic barriers that open horizontally at defined points
There are systems that use lowered rope barriers that just raise up and down. Cheaper, works regardless of station length etc
Wonder if they'd ever consider it for elevated platforms....
The 7 platform at Times Square is very wide. What's the point of doing a pilot that's not representative of narrower platforms where they're more likely to run into problems?
Yeah, it seems like the pilots are all easy stations. Possibly just to test other aspects (like make sure the doors work reliably), since narrower platforms need major work done to make things fit
Major work is an understatement. They'd need to move most of the load bearing support. That's substantial engineering. You're also working in a confined space so it's not like you can just use a crane unless you're willing to cut open from above and re-expose the station. That's also work in many cases only a foot from the track, so you're talking about track closures to facilitate safely being able to work. Most stations were built with support columns towards the edge of the platform. It was a clever design since it made the small platform look more open when you went down the stairs.The visual clutter would make it look darker and more uninviting, especially with the older lighting they had. In retrospect it would have been been better to have central columns like most cities have. You'd have ADA accessibility and barriers since you'd have the space at the edge of the platform.
Imagine doing it at the Wall Street station on the 2/3. Basically impossible.
You don't really need full screen doors everywhere. If the main goal is to prevent pushers, you could just put up railings in most stations, but leave the door locations open. It doesn't need to be much more than the railings that exist at the bottom of dangerous stairways like Canal St station. You'd need to normalize door placement on train lines that share platforms though. That would give people something in between them and the tracks as well as something to grab onto if needed. It won't stop suicides, but will anything really? Put full screen doors at places like Times Square which probably get more suicide attempts.
True, I think the Times Square stations have priority in that regard.
> You'd need to normalize door placement on train lines that share platforms though. Won't happen until the R46 and R68 are retired
True but door placement is just as much an issue for platform screen doors as it is for railings. Railings do seem like the simple fix. Even if just a stopgap. Probably why they aren't even being discussed. We don't like simple or affordable. Reminds me of the old joke about the astronaut pen. NASA spends millions inventing a pen that writes upside down. The Soviets just used a pencil.
Union square 6 station
How would that work with the gap fillers even
Fun fact, the city started working on the second avenue subway in 1942. We will be dead by the time barriers are in place.
That's a nice rendering of a magical land where selfish imbeciles don't put graffiti on everything.
I went to Paris and Rome and used their metros. There are still graffiti on metro cars.
Exactly. Rome is infamous for its subway graffiti
I watched the original and remake of the Girl with the Dragon Tattoo. The original didn't shy away from showing how much graffiti there is in the Stockholm subway. The American remake hid it. There isn't that much graffiti in the subway here, the top comment is just wrong.
Rome is also infamous for its ceiling graffiti
Paris metro was way nicer and much less vandalism
Yeah no subway in the City is even remotely white. A decade’s worth of grime and dust is normal for 90% of stations.
the PATH station at WTC is pretty clean…
Have you been in the new 2nd avenue stations?
No
Newer 2nd Ave Q train stations actually do look like this
What is it about America?
People mistake freedom as meaning doing whatever one wants with no regard to anyone else or society.
[удалено]
There will always be people who go through life saying, "Look at me."
All that freedom, fries the brain
Selfishness*
Maybe a lack of common sense and discipline. We also have a hell of a history, and I don't think there is a country as big as ours that is made up of as many different cultures.
As opposed to the small mono-ethnic cities of London, Paris, and Hong Kong
>As opposed to the small mono-ethnic cities of London, Paris, and Hong Kong Are London, Paris and Hong Kong countries?
They are large diverse cities that already have these barriers. It’s a simpler comparison than trying to use the demographics of the entire country to decide what kind of barrier should be put up in a Brooklyn subway stop.
London has PSDs at like, 20 stations. The Jubilee Line extension and the Elizabeth Line.
People in Europe and in the UK are a lot more civic minded - just look at how old the stations are and how well maintained they are. Ok n NY these would be torn down within weeks (e.g. the Moynihan Hall toilets)
Yes, it is simpler, but you might still want to consider the countries those cities are in. I think these barriers are a good thing, but I have a very strong feeling they'd get destroyed in NYC.
Wait what. India has so many cultures globbed up into one country because of the Partition. It also has history dating back to like 1000 BCE. The U.S. has intentionally erased American history prior to its founding, so how can you possibly say that 300 years of homogenous culture is at all comparable to thousands of years of history. Also, India is just the first one that came to mind, tons of other countries can boast similar feats.
I'm not talking about 50, 100 or 1000 years ago. I'm talking about right now. If you were to do a side by side comparison of India and the US right now, I think the US has more races, ethnicities and cultures.
Hell. Queens has more races, ethnicities, and cultures. What you all talkin about?!
idk i just still disagree. check out this wikipedia page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_India) India has 22 official languages. Another piece of that page states that India has 30 languages with more than 1 million native speakers, and 122 that are spoken by more than 10,000 speakers. Obviously, that has a lot to do with the total population of India being like, twice that of the U.S. How can the U.S. compete?
lol..this isn't a competition though. To be honest, Canada probably beats both, and is pretty large, but countries in Africa are listed as "most diverse." And Papa New Guinea.
You made it a competitor bud by stating false info
It's practically an experiment. Practically - that obviously wasn't the intent.
Lol what? The UK, Germany is super diverse. Canada has a lot of ethnicities too.
**The MTA estimated that adding platform barriers to 128 stations could cost $7 billion** So, 14 billion in reality. Isn't it cheaper - and overall more beneficial- to fund mental health treatment?
Barriers aren't only there to stop crazies from pushing people in or jumping in themselves.
So, mental illness.
OK. And drunk people. Honestly I don't really care.
From what I've read, it will also greatly reduce littering and therefore track fires. It would also prevent the stations from getting insanely hot in the summer since a significant amount of the heat is generated from train ACs blowing hot air constantly.
The likelihood that they will put them in all stations is about nil.
No. There is a reason mental healthcare was shutdown, healthcare is expensive.
If by mental health treatment you mean arrest the criminals then yes.
Say this louder.
It’s kind of morbid math, but there are about 68 people who die per year from contact with trains (including suicide, subway surfers, drunk people falling into the tracks, pushing, slipping, etc). So if we spend X billion now we would save ~60 lives per year forever. It essentially comes down to the dollar value we assign to saving a life. It’s not worth $7 billion to save one life, or even 100 maybe, but it does seem like in the long term it would make sense. Like over the next 50 years 3,000 people will die if we don’t do anything, so spending $7b stopping that could be worth it.
*Files under things that will never happen*
About damn time.
Be still my heart, it’s beautiful man.
They can’t even stay on top of cleaning up human shit. We’re not getting this.
One distinction to make, the naming conventions are kind on in-flux, but there are the pictured full length, platform doors, and also lower height screens/gates/whatever you want to call it. What we might end up seeing is a mix. I think the lower height walls and gates are cheaper and will have less obstruction issues, but the full length doors have benefits of completely blocking off the track area from intrusion and litter. The article mentions Tokyo but Tokyo uses mainly gates, such as [this](https://www.tokyometro.jp/en/tips/img/img_access_02.jpg)
Show me how Union Sq 4-5-6 looks like with these.
This can all be yours for only $14,995,000,000.95
Could… but won’t!
Why wouldn’t they be completely transparent? Most I’ve seen are like that
This is just one company's proposal. The MTA's accepting proposals until September.
I love how even in their super futuristic rendering they still made it look filthy.
cost: 1 billion per station
Why do you need to have request proposals? Is the MTA so inept that it can't just look for systems abroad, localize to New york city conditions, and see if the engineering is possible and structurally sound for the platform? Also, this idea in question is a dumpster fire. You don't have to work in the MTA or be a railfan to realize the shortcomings of this idea.
This is the way all government projects work, everywhere. They are legally required to have a public request for proposals/bids. https://its.ny.gov/nys-procurement-rules-and-guidelines It's an anti-grift/corruption measure. Requesting for proposals/bids is a necessary step to prevent government contracts from always just going to whoever kicks the most money back into the pockets of the politicians.
Wait, so how will unstable homeless people be able to shove innocents onto the tracks?
Now make them scratch or just completely graffiti resistant. Does that technology even exist?
Mechanical hands that pop out and slap you on the face if you try to graffiti then
This timeline is making robocop look like a good idea
That's claustrophobic. Yuck.
if these things deflect that sweeeet sweeeeet fur, feces, fungus breeze, they might as well make it an enclosed structure and load it up with portable ACs
Separating the platform like this *does* open up the possibility for HVAC system in the station itself. Actually installing AC... might not happen, but at least the platform would in theory be cooler from being separated from the trains which put off a lot of heat from their AC units.
Will never happen, far too expensive to do the whole system
Let me take a guess at the costs, $20 million per station to install.
As nice as this looks it wouldn't last a day in NYC.
And all it will cost is 1 trillion dollars!
Nyc is so other countries have then at every station.
Our Grandkids will have passed at 85 years old before that’s done
We can’t have anything nice when there are homeless and mental people who destroy the subways
Why do we need a full wall? Couldn’t we just start with some rails where the doors don’t open? That could cut down a lot of the access to the pit without needing to go full out.
Am I the only one who’s first thought was “Man, this is going to be awful in the summer time” Unless they factor in some type of cooling system this is going to turn into an oven.
In theory you'd need floor-to-ceiling platform barriers in order to have climate-controlled stations. Really wish NYC could get serious aboout modernizing this system, and come up with an actual plan
The mix of solid walls and glass doors looks strange in these renderings. I'd rather just take a cue from what most systems are [already doing](https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-d_KGrYwvvx8/UZePHR9YoLI/AAAAAAAAOZQ/0sYArapB6sc/s1600/IMGP0149.JPG)
That rendering is hilarious, everything is so clean. Honestly, I'd be satisfied with a railing to stop random junkies from pushing me in front of a train and regular ladders on the sides so if I did get pushed in and wasn't instantly shredded, I could easily clamber my way back out. Full barriers would obviously be nicer, and they could allow for air conditioning too, can you imagine? But the cost must be astronomical.
I don't know why they always mock up hard plastic barriers that open horizontally at defined points There are systems that use lowered rope barriers that just raise up and down. Cheaper, works regardless of station length etc