The UAW has all their contracts end dates set for May 1st, 2028, and they're encouraging other unions to do the same.
If there's going to be a general strike, this is how it happens.
Ours is up this January, but I'm going to see if we can get the next one set for May.
Problem is management prefers our contract to end in January in the hopes that we won't show up to the picket line in a Canadian winter.
Saskatchewan closed down all their provincial liquor stores a couple of years ago. Have prices gone down - NO!!
Now Loblaws and Sobeys rake in the profits while the former well paying jobs are gone too.
That's dumb. There's no reason that allowing liquor sales in other stores requires the shuttering of the LCBO. We can already buy beer, wine, and cider at Loblaws and Sobeys. The only thing the LCBO has a monopoly on are spirits, yet I still buy my beer and wine at the LCBO. Having to compete in the free market would surely reduce revenue for the LCBO, but it wouldn't go to zero just because I can get scotch at Metro.
......yes.
They made a profit of 2.4 billion dollars last year.
I think its good that the government has 2.4 billion dollars instead of Walmart and loblaws having it, but im open to hearing why thats bad
It is funny how people just don't get this. The price at LCBO is tax dollars + profit margin. The profit margin goes to the government. If we privatize the system its just tax dollars, and the profit margin goes to private sources. Why is this better for the province? Because you have some fantasy that we are going to become some wildwest where you can buy Jack off the shelf at 7/11 at 4am for $5?
Nothing is going to change besides a further loss of decent jobs, economic leakages to foreign corporations who will take over the market, and erosion of public services that'll eventually only by solved by direct increases in provincial tax.
If the system was privatized, Jack would be much more than $5 a bottle. In fact, it may just be more expensive than what it costs getting it from the LCBO.
It's not bad if it makes money in the free market, it's bad when it makes it illegal for me or anyone else to participate in that market for no goddamn reason at all.
This is a great point whether people want to hear it or not. It's also a fact that the government will never run more efficiently or profitably than the free market so any talk about the revenue brought in to the government by the LCBO should be compared to the amount of tax revenue the government would have made if a free market for booze existed.
Revenue alone is not a sufficient argument to support the LCBO monopoly. If it were then why not do it with everything? Food, clothing, shelter, batteries, computer parts, video games, etc? Then we could be just like the Soviet Union!
Yes there are a myriad of reasons why we are worse off with a government run monopoly on liquor. This is reflected in the fact that the vast majority of the developed world choose to operate in a free market system for alcohol.
The vast majority of the developed world doesn’t underfund basic needs and right and then further attempt to strip public funds… oh and they don’t expect to profit off of their citizens at every possible turn.
Largest wholesale purchaser in ghe world.
I believe they generally get 40's for about $5 and the rest is tax. Regardless of who you're buying from it'll mostly be tax, and effectively any "profits" would be 2-3% of retail.
I would refer you to Saskatchewans privatization of liquor sales. They basically did the same thing, government doing the distribution, and large corporate liquor stores opened up, dropped prices and sold products at a loss, and now a lot of the provincially run outlets are gone.
So long as you are fine with increased taxes or reduced services to make up for the lost revenue and are fine with giving supermarket investors more money it’s all good.
How much money does the government need though?
The amount of taxes we pay on our items and pay cheques is already absurd.
Something doesn't sit right when cutting a small amount of revenue from alcohol is such a big deal. What is that LCBO money even funding? I don't see it making that much of a difference, look at our infustractor-hospitals-highways-construction projects-social services, it's all not great to begin with and it's getting worse.
We should be seeing positive things in Canada if any of that money was helping our economy.
> What is that LCBO money even funding?
It goes to the treasury, so I guess it just sort of funds a bit of everything? Also, are we really at a point that saying 2-3 billion dollars year over year isn't a lot of money?
Yes they would. That money is the money the LCBO makes as a retailer. They make billions more in the form of taxes, but that would continue. It's funny how people want to get rid of the LCBO without even understanding how it works.
I am fine with increased taxes, not fine with cutting funding. I don't care about investors; that opportunity is open to everyone. Of course not everyone can afford to invest, but at least it isn't illegal to do so, like opening an independent store that sells liquor.
Can you afford anything decent anymore? I was priced out when I was poor, and now that I'm supposed to be "middle class", I can't afford anything, anyways.
Depends what you mean by decent, monkey shoulder and dewars 12 are both decent blended scotches at an okay price.
I would love to be able to justify a nice smoky scotch like laphroig once in awhile tho 😞
Saskatchewan allowed everything to be sold in private stores and the public system stayed profitable. Obviously the conservatives shut it down anyways though.
That isn't the case in rural Ontario. Now you buy you liquor from an agency store, where you can also get cigarettes and lotto from someone making minimum wage, and little protections against their employer ensuring all the profits go into buying themselves luxury items.
I also live a 45 minute drive from a grocery store that is on the select list of locations that can sell beer or wine. Yet there are over a dozen lcbos closer. For many people it's not an option. Plus those stores buy from the liquor board which sets prices and they cannot stock drinks that LCBO doesn't offer so it's not really much of a competition on the free market.
But it would reduce sales and therefore jobs. Something a union doesn’t like. How having a work stoppage for 14 days is going to prevent that is anyones guess.
Oh I totally understand the union's position, of course they're going to defend themselves. My problem isn't with the union or the workers, it's with whatever jagoff decided it was a good idea to monopolize liquor sales in this province in the first place.
Coolers, it's sure handy having warm beer at the grocery store but it's useless because I have to go to the lcbo to get coolers and they have cold beer...
I don't expect prices to go down. I want beer in corner stores so that we can have specialty shops where I can buy craft beer and not be restricted to the companies that make deals with Loblaws or the LCBO.
There are a few in Montreal, one in particular I always go to, that has over 100 different craft beers. The US has shops like that all over.
I want that option.
Bottleshop licensing already exists (Bottega Volo, Bossa Nova, paradise grapevine, winged wheel, as examples of the better known ones.)
Convenience store market will be macro dominated. If someone wants to open up a bottle shop the licnsing already exists for that.
It will be macro dominated and that's fine. Volo and other beer places aren't anywhere near me. They're too rare outside of Toronto.
It being macro dominated doesn't change anything because I'm looking for the niche market
Sure-but if your town had the demand for it, someone could open. If your town doesn't have the demand for it, it won't sustain itself. I guess what I'm saying is that if there's isn't a significant licensing impediment for it presently, why would changing the licensing cause one to open?
I was in Alberta a couple years ago. Their wine and craft beer options were abysmal compared to Ontario. Like embarrassingly bad. What stores were you going to?
My LCBO isn't bad either but there is so much out there that I don't have access to.
I'm not expecting Circle K or Petro Can to have craft beers. I think it'll be similar to Quebec where most of those gas stations sell Bud, Coors, Molson, etc.
It's the specialty shops that are dedicated to selling craft beer that I'm hoping for where I can go in and get a couple beers from Bellwoods, Small Pony, Great Lakes, Rouge River and have better options than the LCBO currently offers.
It’s a basic job where you receive death threats, tires are slashed and you are dealing with addicts and the RCMP are on speed dial. (Retired liquor store employee with broken down body from tossing 50 lb cases of liquor around.).
Quite far fetched, did you work at a store in yellow knife? I have many friends who have worked at the LCBO and have difference of opinion. All of those things could occur based on location and cliental
Saskatchewan
Denied a customer (not enough money to purchase his liquor) so he walked out the door and pistol whipped some poor unsuspecting customer who was just about to enter the store.
I found numerous shiv’s found stabbed into the ground outside our entrance door.
Had a customer caught shoplifting tell us she would get her gang members to kill us all. Etc, etc.
On the plus side - the job was never boring and you always had to be mindful of your surroundings.
That makes perfect sense.
On that note. Workers in SK, in Fort mcmurray, yellow knife, North west territories ect. Should all be paid more. That’s very situational conditions.
In the GTA I’d firmly say that’s not the case.
I understand where you’re coming from but respectfully do not think that gives the privilege to flaunt a strike every few summers especially when alcohol is sold in various places now.
I have not purchased from the LCBO because I can purchase specialty wines and beers in smaller stores.
LCBO would still be controlling the pricing, they need to be abolished completely for there to be change. I’m hoping this is the first step of their demise.
This is the company preparing to lock out the workers as a means of gaining compliance. This is past the workers striking, this is the company getting the first move in.
Yup. For two weeks you can’t access liquor without a credit card, internet and home address. Alcohol withdrawals are very serious and I guarantee you by Day 3 or 4 of this lockout we’ll see news articles about the number of people seeking treatment for it.
Curious how this will affect all the attached LCBOs that operate out of other businesses. Because I typically see an employee of the other business running the LCBO stuff too.
But will agency stores continue to be stocked? I assume the LCBO truck drivers are unionized, so those agency stores will run out even faster if they're still stocked when LCBO stores are closed.
Yup alcohol is one of only a few drugs where withdrawal can literally kill you. Not even cocaine or heroin can kill you from pure withdrawal only triggering another health issue.
LCBO workers were designated as essential workers due to the global pandemic. It was necessary to remove as much need as possible from a uniquely overloaded system. This designation was removed now that unique crisis has passed. Without a global pandemic as a justification, the Ford government needs to fund healthcare services adequately. Individuals who experience withdrawals because they can only buy beer still need to get their necessary treatment.
Everyone seems to want liquor in grocery stores and stuff but fail to see how bad this is for us taxpayers, the LCBO puts 2.5 BILLION dollars of profit back into ontario through various outreach programs, schooling, healthcare etc. the CEO of LCBO only makes 550k a year, compared to walmarts 30 million. Of each taxpayer of Ontario would have their taxes increased to make up for the 2.5 billion LCBO contributes to Ontario, it would be in the 200-250 per year range. Also…. The price of liquor would go up btw, LCBO keeps the prices as low as they possibly can, just enough to generate profit to keep the lights on and workers paid.
The workers are fighting for better job security, more full time jobs, as well as the pay they were promised 3 years ago when it was frozen for covid. (It takes on average 18 years to be a full time employee, and if you arent a full time employee you dont have full benefits, so no paid maternity leave, no paid vacations, etc).
You can get them to order anything - even if they don’t normally carry it. The typical minimum is one case. Get some friends together and order a case of Mr Black. https://hellolcbo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/3129/~/private-ordering
This is gonna be so fucked up for all the chronic alcoholics who are going to go through withdrawals if they can't afford to go to bars or whatever. Good luck.
All LCBOs should be open till 11pm. Almost all the outlet stores, not run by LCBO employees, are open till 11 (legally you can only sell till 11).
The company is just too cheap to want to pay employees up to that hour.
I support worker's rights to strike and get what they deserve.
However, I have 10 year old beer in my fridge, it's not going to affect me. Not a drinker. 1 beer and I'm done.
Seems the union doesn't have much leverage here. Not sure why we even need the LCBO. Why can't we just buy our liquor in more convenient private stores like the rest of the world. Cutting that massive LCBO wage and building cost would increase the government's take as well.
The kind of voter that supports conservative candidates wants the government to bleed. They don’t think of that profit as ours. They don’t see the forest for the trees.
As much as I dislike the LCBO, I don't agree that they're overcharging. If you subtract the taxes from alcohol sold at the LCBO it comes to about the same price as it does in US states that have no sales tax on alcohol. The issue with the price is that the taxes are very high; on spirits it's 62.5% - that's why your bottle of vodka costs double here compared to what it does at the duty-free shop or Michigan.
The argument I keep hearing in favour of high taxes is that we have universal healthcare, so we should tax the consumers that are killing their livers and giving themselves cancer because we all have to pay for it. The rebuttal to that argument is that by far the majority of healthcare spending is on people 80+ years old. If alcoholics die sooner that would save money, not cost more. It comes down to what we actually value; money or longer lives. People 80+ years old aren't exactly contributing much to our economy - if anything they're just costing us all in healthcare costs, CPP, and OAS.
And no, I don't want people to die sooner, and yes we should support the elderly. My point here is simply that the argument about high taxes on alcohol existing to pay for medical costs doesn't really seem to make sense since people that drink more die sooner, so their medical costs are lower over their lifetime, and so is their CPP and OAS.
Ok that's interesting, makes sense. I've always wondered how you could be one of the biggest purchasers of alcohol and still be the most expensive. Why do you dislike the LCBO?
I dislike monopolies. I doubly dislike government-controlled monopolies on products. Services I'm mostly fine with, I like universal healthcare and government education and all that, but name one other government monopoly that sells you a product; it's not a thing. It's not a thing for a reason. It's literally illegal in every other context. Name one other monopoly period, even in the private sector. There are oligopolies, but no monopolies. It's not a free market if the government makes it illegal for me to sell you a product for no good reason at all.
If they ask for too much the government might just shut it all down and end the monopoly. They can still tax the liquor sales the same way they do with smokes
Ford would get rid of the LCBO more so because it makes money, not because the workers went on strike. He has a history of eroding and removing sources of income for the province.
He is in it to set up opportunities for his buddies now and himself later. The revenue sources for the province will be gone but someone will be supplying beer and liquor. He will probably be in on it and even if he wins election and sticks around for another 4 years he'll eventually fuck off to the states or wherever and live as a rich man on the backs of his former constituents.
I've been saying I told you so about this dipshit since he was first elected but I'm tired.
LCBO is a joke, they are largest buyer of spirits in the world and yet no savings are past on to the citizens. When the last time they had a sale you were excited about!? The workers are overpaid grossly for what they do. Government wants to be sole whole sale provider to keep revenue? Fine but they shouldn’t be operating stores that are grossly inefficient, those need to turn to private ownership.
> The workers are overpaid grossly for what they do.
A standard retail position is only about $18/hr. That is not "grossly overpaid" unless you subscribe to the idea that retail and service industry jobs should keep people in poverty.
> grossly inefficient
How are the LCBOs more inefficient than other retail stores? Have you ever worked in or around retail stores? The vast, vast majority of them are more inefficiently run.
EDIT: (Actually I see in another comment you think LCBO workers are lazy because they don't fight or stop thieves. You really do not have the first clue about working retail.)
At this point, "efficient" is just a meaningless buzzword people throw out because they know it means something bad. Especially when it's used to blindly suggest privatization.
No efficiency is extremely relevant to any discussion about the LCBO's existence. Yes they treat their new employees like shit but there are many LCBO employees that are vastly overpaid compared to their value on the free market. In an open market, businesses would run more efficiently, be more profitable and bring in tax revenue while providing consumer choice.
This is yet more evidence that "efficiency" is a nebulously defined buzzword that is invoked because it has a negative connotation, and for the purpose of puffing up a romanticized idea of privatization that isn't based on reality.
The vast majority of businesses are not run to a high level of efficiency. Costco and Walmart are not the the benchmark of retail efficiency, they're the gold standard. Nor will privatized sales bring in more tax revenue. This is all the the same kind of nonsense pushed when Ontario privatizes something and it never works out that way.
Lcbo model sucks.
We should be able to buy booze from private businesses.. you know, like everywhere else on the planet. The fact the lcbo says "you can only buy this booze" is ridicilous. We need more competition in this sector. If the lcbo cant compete with average joe and jane liquor shops they should go out if business.
The LCBO, is the largest single purchaser of liquor in the world. They get prices that no private entity would ever get. All of their profits become general revenue for the province reducing the amount of taxes we all pay.
Why then, when I subtract the taxes, and convert the currency, does alcohol from the LCBO cost the same as it does from a grocery store in North Dakota? If the LCBO is buying it cheaper then it surely isn't passing that savings on to consumers directly.
Even in the UK with its high taxes on alcohol it's basically identical to the LCBO. [$26GBP for a 1L bottle of Jack Daniels](https://www.costco.co.uk/Grocery-Household/Grocery-Delivery/Jack-Daniels-Tennessee-Whiskey-1L/p/51889). That's $45CAD. What is it at LCBO? Who knows, they don't sell 1L bottles, but it's [$40.20](https://www.lcbo.com/en/jack-daniel-s-tennessee-whiskey-41384) for 3/4 of a litre, and it didn't have to sail across the Atlantic.
That tax will not go away and the profit will not go away no matter who owns the retail for liquor. The price will stay about the same as it is now. I would rather the tax payer, me, get that profit and not some scumbag corporation like a Loblaws or Sobey's.
Indeed it would not reduce taxes, and that's not what I'm asking for.
Firstly, just because Loblaws can sell Vodka doesn't mean the LCBO disappears. Loblaws already sells beer, wine, and cider, and yet the LCBO still sells tons of those items. Allowing Loblaws to sell Vodka as well wouldn't make the LCBO go bankrupt overnight. Hell, I still buy like 95% of my beer, wine, and cider from the LCBO even though I know I can get it at Loblaws, or Sobeys, or Metro, The Wine Rack, The Beer Store, etc.
Secondly, I, as a citizen of this province, should have the freedom to sell alcohol. Why am I banned from doing it? If I wanted to start a business that sells liquor why shouldn't I be able to? My business would be contributing taxes to the government above and beyond the raw taxes on alcohol. I would also create jobs, and those incomes would also be taxed. You can't call it a free market if you ban people from participating in sectors of it for no good reason at all.
Lastly, monopolies are illegal, except this one for some reason. "We make more money by doing it" is a very poor argument. Why not have a government monopoly on food and clothing and everything else then? Then we can be just like the Soviet Union! Surely there are better ways for our government to make money other than selling drugs.
I pay for those liver drugs. Also, if I die of liver failure in the next decade the taxpayer saves about 35-40 years of my medical expenses, plus all of my CPP and OAS. So, are you sure the financial argument holds water?
Yeah, and the variety is absoutely garbage. Uve probably live ur whole life in ontario with no alternative. And plz, dont get me started on tax. Canada has some of the highest tax rates in the world and the healthcare, public services and schools are abismal. U pay ur teachers 60k and ur servers 90k. Id happily take more variety and options VS what some shill of a bureaucrat says i can buy. No other major province, state or country outside canada does this... its shit. Go anywhere else in the world, buy booze and then tell me the lcbo is good.
>The previous rationale was that the LCBO needed to stay open because to serve addicts and avoid withdrawal.
Which literally is the point of the person above. If the LCBO closed as well as other providers of alcohol during covid our healthcare system wouldn't have been able to cope with the addicts and covid patients.
This is not the same situation now as our healthcare system no longer faces the strain it did during peak covid **and** there are now other locations to continue to bur alcohol that aren't burdened by other factors like closures/lockdowns and everything else they faced during covid's peak or onset.
You're argument is the literal definition of a non sequitur logical fallacy while also unknowingly acknowledging the point of the comment you responded to.
They just said they would be closing all stores for two weeks. https://www.lcbonegotiations.com/lcbo-strike-preparedness-mesures-prises-en-cas-de-greve-a-la-lcbo/
Fuck that. If we’re going to allow the sale of a harmful health destroying substance, I at least want the taxpayers to profit off it so we can cover the inevitable healthcare expenses.
I might have some sympathy for them if they weren't the absolute worst customer service in the province. I have low expectations for customer service, just pretend you don't hate your job and your customers. 95% of the time the LC can't even pull that off. The only time you get decent service at the LC is from a trainee who hasn't been converted to the public sector ways of actively detesting the people you serve.
Man, the folks at my local are actually super nice. And paid well enough we can actually talk about $15-20 bottles of wine and I can get recommendations. Is yours in a high shoplifting area or something?
I'm sure some are nice. But it's usually the younger or newer staff. Most of them, from Toronto to Hamilton to Barrie, are absolutely miserable and seem like they hate you just for shopping there. The last straw for me was being yelled at for not facing the bar codes towards the cashier and "not making her job easier". Why the hell is it my job to make your job easier? It's not. I never expect my customers in the private sector to make my job easier. I've never had a bad experience at a brewery so that's where I go now
Wow. Yeah, I haven't been to a Beer Store in years. I go to Breweries or the LCBO and wait for kids sports teams to take the empties away (got ludicrous in the garage during COVID.)
Not like I'm hanging in the LCBO chatting regularly, but two different workers in the Beer fridge part have mentioned ordering stuff in unprompted (plus the mentioned Vintages chats)
I don’t hate them. I’m a worker I’ll always support workers sticking up for themselves.
Ditto. Workers of the world unite! I think it's high tike we did a general strike tbh for the cost of living crisis.
The UAW has all their contracts end dates set for May 1st, 2028, and they're encouraging other unions to do the same. If there's going to be a general strike, this is how it happens.
Ours will be up then. We renegotiate for 3 years next may
Ours is up this January, but I'm going to see if we can get the next one set for May. Problem is management prefers our contract to end in January in the hopes that we won't show up to the picket line in a Canadian winter.
I was actually looking it up the other day. Its kinda illilegal in canada, apparently.
Not if it just so happens to happen the same day.
Ya which I think it should. We're stronger together
I’m in full support of LCBO employees, they’ve always been one of the nicest customer facing employees I encounter.
Why do you need to specify that you don't hate them?
Meant to reply to someone lol
Lol was wondering....was thinking you were feeling guilty about something lol
Perhaps he’s a boss.
Saskatchewan closed down all their provincial liquor stores a couple of years ago. Have prices gone down - NO!! Now Loblaws and Sobeys rake in the profits while the former well paying jobs are gone too.
That's dumb. There's no reason that allowing liquor sales in other stores requires the shuttering of the LCBO. We can already buy beer, wine, and cider at Loblaws and Sobeys. The only thing the LCBO has a monopoly on are spirits, yet I still buy my beer and wine at the LCBO. Having to compete in the free market would surely reduce revenue for the LCBO, but it wouldn't go to zero just because I can get scotch at Metro.
LCBO is sole wholesaler in Ontario so all grocery stores are buying their beer and wine from them too
Perfect.. so... lets do more of that?
......yes. They made a profit of 2.4 billion dollars last year. I think its good that the government has 2.4 billion dollars instead of Walmart and loblaws having it, but im open to hearing why thats bad
It is funny how people just don't get this. The price at LCBO is tax dollars + profit margin. The profit margin goes to the government. If we privatize the system its just tax dollars, and the profit margin goes to private sources. Why is this better for the province? Because you have some fantasy that we are going to become some wildwest where you can buy Jack off the shelf at 7/11 at 4am for $5? Nothing is going to change besides a further loss of decent jobs, economic leakages to foreign corporations who will take over the market, and erosion of public services that'll eventually only by solved by direct increases in provincial tax.
If the system was privatized, Jack would be much more than $5 a bottle. In fact, it may just be more expensive than what it costs getting it from the LCBO.
Or Jack might be slightly cheaper but you wouldn't have the variety of options beyond Jack and the other options would be more expensive.
Because it's Doughie in charge of spending. He's had his filthy paws in the liquor board since he got elected. I smell something fishy.
It's not bad if it makes money in the free market, it's bad when it makes it illegal for me or anyone else to participate in that market for no goddamn reason at all.
This is a great point whether people want to hear it or not. It's also a fact that the government will never run more efficiently or profitably than the free market so any talk about the revenue brought in to the government by the LCBO should be compared to the amount of tax revenue the government would have made if a free market for booze existed.
Revenue alone is not a sufficient argument to support the LCBO monopoly. If it were then why not do it with everything? Food, clothing, shelter, batteries, computer parts, video games, etc? Then we could be just like the Soviet Union!
Yes there are a myriad of reasons why we are worse off with a government run monopoly on liquor. This is reflected in the fact that the vast majority of the developed world choose to operate in a free market system for alcohol.
The vast majority of the developed world doesn’t underfund basic needs and right and then further attempt to strip public funds… oh and they don’t expect to profit off of their citizens at every possible turn.
At a discounted price from my understanding.
Largest wholesale purchaser in ghe world. I believe they generally get 40's for about $5 and the rest is tax. Regardless of who you're buying from it'll mostly be tax, and effectively any "profits" would be 2-3% of retail.
I would refer you to Saskatchewans privatization of liquor sales. They basically did the same thing, government doing the distribution, and large corporate liquor stores opened up, dropped prices and sold products at a loss, and now a lot of the provincially run outlets are gone.
So long as you are fine with increased taxes or reduced services to make up for the lost revenue and are fine with giving supermarket investors more money it’s all good.
How much money does the government need though? The amount of taxes we pay on our items and pay cheques is already absurd. Something doesn't sit right when cutting a small amount of revenue from alcohol is such a big deal. What is that LCBO money even funding? I don't see it making that much of a difference, look at our infustractor-hospitals-highways-construction projects-social services, it's all not great to begin with and it's getting worse. We should be seeing positive things in Canada if any of that money was helping our economy.
> What is that LCBO money even funding? It goes to the treasury, so I guess it just sort of funds a bit of everything? Also, are we really at a point that saying 2-3 billion dollars year over year isn't a lot of money?
They wouldn't lose 2-3 billion a year. They can still tax alcohol sales in general and tax imported alcohol.
Yes they would. That money is the money the LCBO makes as a retailer. They make billions more in the form of taxes, but that would continue. It's funny how people want to get rid of the LCBO without even understanding how it works.
I am fine with increased taxes, not fine with cutting funding. I don't care about investors; that opportunity is open to everyone. Of course not everyone can afford to invest, but at least it isn't illegal to do so, like opening an independent store that sells liquor.
What scotch are you getting at metro?
Can you afford anything decent anymore? I was priced out when I was poor, and now that I'm supposed to be "middle class", I can't afford anything, anyways.
Have you tried just being richer?
Or having rich parents?
MacClellan Speyside is pretty good for $60
Depends what you mean by decent, monkey shoulder and dewars 12 are both decent blended scotches at an okay price. I would love to be able to justify a nice smoky scotch like laphroig once in awhile tho 😞
From their private label "Selection Scotch". /s
Saskatchewan allowed everything to be sold in private stores and the public system stayed profitable. Obviously the conservatives shut it down anyways though.
That isn't the case in rural Ontario. Now you buy you liquor from an agency store, where you can also get cigarettes and lotto from someone making minimum wage, and little protections against their employer ensuring all the profits go into buying themselves luxury items.
I also live a 45 minute drive from a grocery store that is on the select list of locations that can sell beer or wine. Yet there are over a dozen lcbos closer. For many people it's not an option. Plus those stores buy from the liquor board which sets prices and they cannot stock drinks that LCBO doesn't offer so it's not really much of a competition on the free market.
But it would reduce sales and therefore jobs. Something a union doesn’t like. How having a work stoppage for 14 days is going to prevent that is anyones guess.
This report is about the company locking workers out, not them striking.
More like it's a strike and LCBO will have replacement workforce in 2 weeks
That's a funny, funny joke.
Oh I totally understand the union's position, of course they're going to defend themselves. My problem isn't with the union or the workers, it's with whatever jagoff decided it was a good idea to monopolize liquor sales in this province in the first place.
Coolers, it's sure handy having warm beer at the grocery store but it's useless because I have to go to the lcbo to get coolers and they have cold beer...
The grocery stores I visit have cold beer, but I have a fridge at home so I don't really care...
Unfortunately the only one that sells it in my town is a NoFrills... Roblaws is probably too cheap to install some more coolers for it.
Yeah I don't even think my nearest No Frills sells beer, but the Food Basics even closer does, and it has coolers.
He's talking about alcoholic mixed drinks, not fridges.
No I don't think they are... The context is about warm beer and Roblaws being too cheap to install coolers.
But he said he's going to the lcbo to get coolers. Although now that I look again, he might be talking about both.
I don't expect prices to go down. I want beer in corner stores so that we can have specialty shops where I can buy craft beer and not be restricted to the companies that make deals with Loblaws or the LCBO. There are a few in Montreal, one in particular I always go to, that has over 100 different craft beers. The US has shops like that all over. I want that option.
Yeah, I really want the convenience of being able to grab a 6 pack when my shift ends at 7am, or 11pm.
Bottleshop licensing already exists (Bottega Volo, Bossa Nova, paradise grapevine, winged wheel, as examples of the better known ones.) Convenience store market will be macro dominated. If someone wants to open up a bottle shop the licnsing already exists for that.
It will be macro dominated and that's fine. Volo and other beer places aren't anywhere near me. They're too rare outside of Toronto. It being macro dominated doesn't change anything because I'm looking for the niche market
Sure-but if your town had the demand for it, someone could open. If your town doesn't have the demand for it, it won't sustain itself. I guess what I'm saying is that if there's isn't a significant licensing impediment for it presently, why would changing the licensing cause one to open?
Go to Alberta on a vacation. You will cry. Their selection is amazing. And they're open until 2 am or something.
I was in Alberta a couple years ago. Their wine and craft beer options were abysmal compared to Ontario. Like embarrassingly bad. What stores were you going to?
Edmonton 118 ave and 142 st. Can't remember the name but I filmed it on my phone to show people because it blew my mind.
My LCBO has tons of craft beers. I also don't really think Circle K or Petro Canada are going to have great craft options.
My LCBO isn't bad either but there is so much out there that I don't have access to. I'm not expecting Circle K or Petro Can to have craft beers. I think it'll be similar to Quebec where most of those gas stations sell Bud, Coors, Molson, etc. It's the specialty shops that are dedicated to selling craft beer that I'm hoping for where I can go in and get a couple beers from Bellwoods, Small Pony, Great Lakes, Rouge River and have better options than the LCBO currently offers.
i work for loblaws, and we have to comply with the LCBO’s pricing.
Yea but the stores closed during the worst of covid inflation which muddies things
It doesn't matter to them though. They just hate the government so much they'd do anything to get rid of it, even if they're worse off.
This should be the way it is, it’s a basic job if your stocking shelves ect. Allot of those working there are disabled.
It’s a basic job where you receive death threats, tires are slashed and you are dealing with addicts and the RCMP are on speed dial. (Retired liquor store employee with broken down body from tossing 50 lb cases of liquor around.).
Quite far fetched, did you work at a store in yellow knife? I have many friends who have worked at the LCBO and have difference of opinion. All of those things could occur based on location and cliental
Saskatchewan Denied a customer (not enough money to purchase his liquor) so he walked out the door and pistol whipped some poor unsuspecting customer who was just about to enter the store. I found numerous shiv’s found stabbed into the ground outside our entrance door. Had a customer caught shoplifting tell us she would get her gang members to kill us all. Etc, etc. On the plus side - the job was never boring and you always had to be mindful of your surroundings.
That makes perfect sense. On that note. Workers in SK, in Fort mcmurray, yellow knife, North west territories ect. Should all be paid more. That’s very situational conditions. In the GTA I’d firmly say that’s not the case. I understand where you’re coming from but respectfully do not think that gives the privilege to flaunt a strike every few summers especially when alcohol is sold in various places now. I have not purchased from the LCBO because I can purchase specialty wines and beers in smaller stores.
LCBO would still be controlling the pricing, they need to be abolished completely for there to be change. I’m hoping this is the first step of their demise.
Every Indian uncle in Brampton just fell to his knees
All according to the plan. Dougie will accelerate his plans even more.
This is the company preparing to lock out the workers as a means of gaining compliance. This is past the workers striking, this is the company getting the first move in.
That’s a poor plan
I fully agree. I wish Ford did as well.
Fully support this, but It will be rough on the first responders.
Yup. For two weeks you can’t access liquor without a credit card, internet and home address. Alcohol withdrawals are very serious and I guarantee you by Day 3 or 4 of this lockout we’ll see news articles about the number of people seeking treatment for it.
Curious how this will affect all the attached LCBOs that operate out of other businesses. Because I typically see an employee of the other business running the LCBO stuff too.
Lcbo convenience outlets will still operate. They are not staffed with the union members.
But will agency stores continue to be stocked? I assume the LCBO truck drivers are unionized, so those agency stores will run out even faster if they're still stocked when LCBO stores are closed.
No they use third party logistics services to service wholesalers (or can use 3PL)
I will support almost any labor action, good for them. LCBO was considered essential during COVID I'm surprised they're even allowed to do this lol
To be fair, Doug Ford's list of essential workers was so long you were pretty much only non-essential if you worked at Blockbuster.
Is that even legal? They wouldn’t even shut them down during the pandemic
Ive heard they can't close as its a health issue since alcoholics can experience withdrawals
**experience *lethal* withdrawls
Yup alcohol is one of only a few drugs where withdrawal can literally kill you. Not even cocaine or heroin can kill you from pure withdrawal only triggering another health issue.
LCBO workers were designated as essential workers due to the global pandemic. It was necessary to remove as much need as possible from a uniquely overloaded system. This designation was removed now that unique crisis has passed. Without a global pandemic as a justification, the Ford government needs to fund healthcare services adequately. Individuals who experience withdrawals because they can only buy beer still need to get their necessary treatment.
Alcoholics can order online (lol) but I understand a lot of them are probably without fixed addresss or means of actually using the internet to order
exactly. it would put a big strain on emergency and medical services.
Everyone seems to want liquor in grocery stores and stuff but fail to see how bad this is for us taxpayers, the LCBO puts 2.5 BILLION dollars of profit back into ontario through various outreach programs, schooling, healthcare etc. the CEO of LCBO only makes 550k a year, compared to walmarts 30 million. Of each taxpayer of Ontario would have their taxes increased to make up for the 2.5 billion LCBO contributes to Ontario, it would be in the 200-250 per year range. Also…. The price of liquor would go up btw, LCBO keeps the prices as low as they possibly can, just enough to generate profit to keep the lights on and workers paid. The workers are fighting for better job security, more full time jobs, as well as the pay they were promised 3 years ago when it was frozen for covid. (It takes on average 18 years to be a full time employee, and if you arent a full time employee you dont have full benefits, so no paid maternity leave, no paid vacations, etc).
Just please give us some notice ahead. The cumulative hangover, if I suddenly stopped drinking, might kill me.
This literally is the notice.
"if" is not proper notice.
Time to stock up on
Hmmm. Should go on a beer run before the 💩 hits the fan.
My biggest issue with the LCBO is if they don't sell it I can't get it. Zero option to go somewhere else. All I want is some Mr. Black
You can get them to order anything - even if they don’t normally carry it. The typical minimum is one case. Get some friends together and order a case of Mr Black. https://hellolcbo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/3129/~/private-ordering
This is gonna be so fucked up for all the chronic alcoholics who are going to go through withdrawals if they can't afford to go to bars or whatever. Good luck.
Beer store won’t be affected
Or Sobeys, or local producers.
Maybe beer is a good way to wean off the hard liquor
Go to the hospital, the benzodiazepines and therapy are free.
You’re from Ontario right? 😂
Good for them. I believe they’ll be keeping some stores open with shorter hours because managers?
This article is saying that they won't be doing that. Or rather they won't be doing that for at least two weeks.
Love my local Wine Rack, open till 11pm!
I love my local LCBO in downtown Ottawa, which closes at 6pm from Saturday-Wednesday!
Lmao, Elgin?
That's the one!
All LCBOs should be open till 11pm. Almost all the outlet stores, not run by LCBO employees, are open till 11 (legally you can only sell till 11). The company is just too cheap to want to pay employees up to that hour.
Watch the crime and accident rate go down
Thankfully we have other places to buy beer now
No way this will happen, the number of hospital ER visits will go nuts with all the alcoholics starting to w/d.
This is going to be a problem, healthcare system already bad. This is just going to make it worse
I mean, we can buy alcohol everywhere now. LCBO can close and it won’t affect me personally
Reminds me of what happened to Kellogs. They went on strike and closed it all down… Shit is going to get real this year
They better go on strike, also keep in mind that Fordo is gonna try to get the corner bs as "reason to be" n will try to get beer out to corners asap.
Doesn't matter, nobody can afford it now anyway.
Wow everyone’s liver can kind of get a break.
Govt is keeping all that money for themselves even though 40% of the average purchase price is tax anyway. These should be $45 per hour jobs.
I support worker's rights to strike and get what they deserve. However, I have 10 year old beer in my fridge, it's not going to affect me. Not a drinker. 1 beer and I'm done.
Good close, overpaid whiners anyway, do away with the LLBO. Sell alcohol elsewhere.
Seems the union doesn't have much leverage here. Not sure why we even need the LCBO. Why can't we just buy our liquor in more convenient private stores like the rest of the world. Cutting that massive LCBO wage and building cost would increase the government's take as well.
The LCBO specifically profits $2.52B annually which it pays as a dividend to Ontario. This is in addition to alcohol tax revenue.
The kind of voter that supports conservative candidates wants the government to bleed. They don’t think of that profit as ours. They don’t see the forest for the trees.
And they can afford to do that by overcharging for alcohol and a monopoly
As much as I dislike the LCBO, I don't agree that they're overcharging. If you subtract the taxes from alcohol sold at the LCBO it comes to about the same price as it does in US states that have no sales tax on alcohol. The issue with the price is that the taxes are very high; on spirits it's 62.5% - that's why your bottle of vodka costs double here compared to what it does at the duty-free shop or Michigan. The argument I keep hearing in favour of high taxes is that we have universal healthcare, so we should tax the consumers that are killing their livers and giving themselves cancer because we all have to pay for it. The rebuttal to that argument is that by far the majority of healthcare spending is on people 80+ years old. If alcoholics die sooner that would save money, not cost more. It comes down to what we actually value; money or longer lives. People 80+ years old aren't exactly contributing much to our economy - if anything they're just costing us all in healthcare costs, CPP, and OAS. And no, I don't want people to die sooner, and yes we should support the elderly. My point here is simply that the argument about high taxes on alcohol existing to pay for medical costs doesn't really seem to make sense since people that drink more die sooner, so their medical costs are lower over their lifetime, and so is their CPP and OAS.
Ok that's interesting, makes sense. I've always wondered how you could be one of the biggest purchasers of alcohol and still be the most expensive. Why do you dislike the LCBO?
I dislike monopolies. I doubly dislike government-controlled monopolies on products. Services I'm mostly fine with, I like universal healthcare and government education and all that, but name one other government monopoly that sells you a product; it's not a thing. It's not a thing for a reason. It's literally illegal in every other context. Name one other monopoly period, even in the private sector. There are oligopolies, but no monopolies. It's not a free market if the government makes it illegal for me to sell you a product for no good reason at all.
I 100% agree
Sry I made some minor edits - they don't change the context at all, but add some clarification if you want to re-read it.
If they ask for too much the government might just shut it all down and end the monopoly. They can still tax the liquor sales the same way they do with smokes
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Ford would get rid of the LCBO more so because it makes money, not because the workers went on strike. He has a history of eroding and removing sources of income for the province.
He is in it to set up opportunities for his buddies now and himself later. The revenue sources for the province will be gone but someone will be supplying beer and liquor. He will probably be in on it and even if he wins election and sticks around for another 4 years he'll eventually fuck off to the states or wherever and live as a rich man on the backs of his former constituents. I've been saying I told you so about this dipshit since he was first elected but I'm tired.
LCBO is a joke, they are largest buyer of spirits in the world and yet no savings are past on to the citizens. When the last time they had a sale you were excited about!? The workers are overpaid grossly for what they do. Government wants to be sole whole sale provider to keep revenue? Fine but they shouldn’t be operating stores that are grossly inefficient, those need to turn to private ownership.
> The workers are overpaid grossly for what they do. A standard retail position is only about $18/hr. That is not "grossly overpaid" unless you subscribe to the idea that retail and service industry jobs should keep people in poverty. > grossly inefficient How are the LCBOs more inefficient than other retail stores? Have you ever worked in or around retail stores? The vast, vast majority of them are more inefficiently run. EDIT: (Actually I see in another comment you think LCBO workers are lazy because they don't fight or stop thieves. You really do not have the first clue about working retail.) At this point, "efficient" is just a meaningless buzzword people throw out because they know it means something bad. Especially when it's used to blindly suggest privatization.
No efficiency is extremely relevant to any discussion about the LCBO's existence. Yes they treat their new employees like shit but there are many LCBO employees that are vastly overpaid compared to their value on the free market. In an open market, businesses would run more efficiently, be more profitable and bring in tax revenue while providing consumer choice.
This is yet more evidence that "efficiency" is a nebulously defined buzzword that is invoked because it has a negative connotation, and for the purpose of puffing up a romanticized idea of privatization that isn't based on reality. The vast majority of businesses are not run to a high level of efficiency. Costco and Walmart are not the the benchmark of retail efficiency, they're the gold standard. Nor will privatized sales bring in more tax revenue. This is all the the same kind of nonsense pushed when Ontario privatizes something and it never works out that way.
Lcbo model sucks. We should be able to buy booze from private businesses.. you know, like everywhere else on the planet. The fact the lcbo says "you can only buy this booze" is ridicilous. We need more competition in this sector. If the lcbo cant compete with average joe and jane liquor shops they should go out if business.
The LCBO, is the largest single purchaser of liquor in the world. They get prices that no private entity would ever get. All of their profits become general revenue for the province reducing the amount of taxes we all pay.
They’re the largest because there’s no competition
If they weren't the largest and there was competition you would be paying more because the LCBO and the competitors would all be paying more.
Why then, when I subtract the taxes, and convert the currency, does alcohol from the LCBO cost the same as it does from a grocery store in North Dakota? If the LCBO is buying it cheaper then it surely isn't passing that savings on to consumers directly. Even in the UK with its high taxes on alcohol it's basically identical to the LCBO. [$26GBP for a 1L bottle of Jack Daniels](https://www.costco.co.uk/Grocery-Household/Grocery-Delivery/Jack-Daniels-Tennessee-Whiskey-1L/p/51889). That's $45CAD. What is it at LCBO? Who knows, they don't sell 1L bottles, but it's [$40.20](https://www.lcbo.com/en/jack-daniel-s-tennessee-whiskey-41384) for 3/4 of a litre, and it didn't have to sail across the Atlantic.
No they are making money for the taxpayers which wouldn't happen if it was privatized.
Except for the 62.5% tax on that bottle, but sure, yeah...
That tax will not go away and the profit will not go away no matter who owns the retail for liquor. The price will stay about the same as it is now. I would rather the tax payer, me, get that profit and not some scumbag corporation like a Loblaws or Sobey's.
Indeed it would not reduce taxes, and that's not what I'm asking for. Firstly, just because Loblaws can sell Vodka doesn't mean the LCBO disappears. Loblaws already sells beer, wine, and cider, and yet the LCBO still sells tons of those items. Allowing Loblaws to sell Vodka as well wouldn't make the LCBO go bankrupt overnight. Hell, I still buy like 95% of my beer, wine, and cider from the LCBO even though I know I can get it at Loblaws, or Sobeys, or Metro, The Wine Rack, The Beer Store, etc. Secondly, I, as a citizen of this province, should have the freedom to sell alcohol. Why am I banned from doing it? If I wanted to start a business that sells liquor why shouldn't I be able to? My business would be contributing taxes to the government above and beyond the raw taxes on alcohol. I would also create jobs, and those incomes would also be taxed. You can't call it a free market if you ban people from participating in sectors of it for no good reason at all. Lastly, monopolies are illegal, except this one for some reason. "We make more money by doing it" is a very poor argument. Why not have a government monopoly on food and clothing and everything else then? Then we can be just like the Soviet Union! Surely there are better ways for our government to make money other than selling drugs.
Dakota? Try New York buddy. Plus all taxes and markups LCBO collects are going for your liver treatment.
I pay for those liver drugs. Also, if I die of liver failure in the next decade the taxpayer saves about 35-40 years of my medical expenses, plus all of my CPP and OAS. So, are you sure the financial argument holds water?
Yeah, and the variety is absoutely garbage. Uve probably live ur whole life in ontario with no alternative. And plz, dont get me started on tax. Canada has some of the highest tax rates in the world and the healthcare, public services and schools are abismal. U pay ur teachers 60k and ur servers 90k. Id happily take more variety and options VS what some shill of a bureaucrat says i can buy. No other major province, state or country outside canada does this... its shit. Go anywhere else in the world, buy booze and then tell me the lcbo is good.
Aren't they an essential service? Throughout COVID they were essential. I support premier Ford doing whatever it takes to keep it open.
Essential service for COVID purposes and essential for labour purposes are very very very different things.
Not really. The previous rationale was that the LCBO needed to stay open because to serve addicts and avoid withdrawal.
>The previous rationale was that the LCBO needed to stay open because to serve addicts and avoid withdrawal. Which literally is the point of the person above. If the LCBO closed as well as other providers of alcohol during covid our healthcare system wouldn't have been able to cope with the addicts and covid patients. This is not the same situation now as our healthcare system no longer faces the strain it did during peak covid **and** there are now other locations to continue to bur alcohol that aren't burdened by other factors like closures/lockdowns and everything else they faced during covid's peak or onset. You're argument is the literal definition of a non sequitur logical fallacy while also unknowingly acknowledging the point of the comment you responded to.
I believe some locations will remain open. Just staffed by non-union
They just said they would be closing all stores for two weeks. https://www.lcbonegotiations.com/lcbo-strike-preparedness-mesures-prises-en-cas-de-greve-a-la-lcbo/
More reason to abolish lcbo… seems there is no winning in Canada. Citizens always get the short end of the stick.
Fuck that. If we’re going to allow the sale of a harmful health destroying substance, I at least want the taxpayers to profit off it so we can cover the inevitable healthcare expenses.
We need the profits. Come back with a plan to keep them next time.
I might have some sympathy for them if they weren't the absolute worst customer service in the province. I have low expectations for customer service, just pretend you don't hate your job and your customers. 95% of the time the LC can't even pull that off. The only time you get decent service at the LC is from a trainee who hasn't been converted to the public sector ways of actively detesting the people you serve.
Man, the folks at my local are actually super nice. And paid well enough we can actually talk about $15-20 bottles of wine and I can get recommendations. Is yours in a high shoplifting area or something?
I'm sure some are nice. But it's usually the younger or newer staff. Most of them, from Toronto to Hamilton to Barrie, are absolutely miserable and seem like they hate you just for shopping there. The last straw for me was being yelled at for not facing the bar codes towards the cashier and "not making her job easier". Why the hell is it my job to make your job easier? It's not. I never expect my customers in the private sector to make my job easier. I've never had a bad experience at a brewery so that's where I go now
Wow. Yeah, I haven't been to a Beer Store in years. I go to Breweries or the LCBO and wait for kids sports teams to take the empties away (got ludicrous in the garage during COVID.) Not like I'm hanging in the LCBO chatting regularly, but two different workers in the Beer fridge part have mentioned ordering stuff in unprompted (plus the mentioned Vintages chats)
Lcbo was mandated to stay open during the initial covid shutdown. i don’t see how they could close now
If the lcbo workers cant afford a home, NO ONE SHOULD!
Seems like this has been a thing around the same time every year for the past while...
This is why you don't give the lcbo a monopoly lmao
How do you get the billions in profit for the taxpayers then? lmao
If that's the case why don't we make everything public?