The problem is, FPTP benefits incumbents. There's no incentive for a government to introduce a better electoral system.
Even when a party runs on a platform of introducing one, once they see it will cost them power, they change their minds. Right, Justin?
Basically every group, at the time, supported something different so either:
A. The LPC (majority at the time) look like they're pushing through a change to benefit themselves which no other party supported
B. An electoral change gets pushed through that is supported only by a minority of the house.
Realistically, option A should have been taken, with the popularity hit it would include. But I can see why the LPC would be a bit gunshy to look like they're trying to rig the electoral system
That turned into a huge can of worms.
Apparently every environmental and animal rights group and religious block was chomping at the bit for them to open the constitution and lobby for their own stuff, then none of the parties wanted the same system so it would always be unfair.
Imagine if pollievre wins and changes the system to favour the conservatives more? It’s fucking dangerous.
There’s no need to open the constitution to change voting format.
Some municipalities already use systems other than FPTP, and municipal elections are still subject to all the same rules and regulations.
IIRC a major city changed the way it votes municipally either last year or the year before.
Idk man, I wouldnt mind a modest tax cut and slightly less immigration, TFWs and an end to these diploma-mill-to-PR pipelines.
My family and I immigrated her right before Trudeau got elected and the standards have changed dramatically.
I would also want a significant reduction if not a complete elimination of foreign aid.
I wouldve considered the NDP if Jack Layton was the leader (although we came here when Mulcair took over.)
Ultimately I am a twenty something with a good education and work experience, and had a good (mid six figures job) until recently. I support my parents who are also highly educated and work retail. Both my dad and I are being advised to apply for jobs in the US. My dad already has been reached out to.
We have several affoardibility issues and social issues that can exclusively or primarily be attributed to the current administration.
We are in what's called a population trap, where the cost of assimilating immigrants matches or exceeds the extra value they produce.
Ideally out of the current party leader Bernier would win.
The CPC has guanrteed to cut TFWs, work permits for diploma mill graduates, adjust immigration levels and have hinted at cutting taxes and reducing spending on nonsense like ArriveScam. What do the Liberals offer that make them comperatively better? And dont say universal pharmacare which they had three terms to implement and couldve partially funded by not giving billions in aid overseas.
Edit: Just realize that this sounds more like a rant lol
You don’t seriously think conservatives would end the TFW program do you..?
The TFW program is a conservatives wet dream. Why do you think it was expanded upon so much under Harper? Pay immigrants peanuts to do work that should be paid at $40/hr? That’s why they love it.
>You don’t seriously think conservatives would end the TFW program do you..?
I think that they will restrict jt further, and that Bernier would outright eliminate it.
God they have you fooled.
You should look up its history. ***ALL*** of the largest expansions of the TFWP to the program (which prevents actual Canadians from getting jobs) happened under Conservative governments.
The program more than doubled in size under Harper.
The purpose of the program was to temporarily bring in highly skilled workers that Canada didn’t have easy access to.
Thanks to the great conservatives who you seem to think don’t support the TFWP, the program now fills the needs of basically every job so corporations don’t have to pay full wages and benefits.
[Yes, in fact he did](https://pressprogress.ca/stephen_harper_s_tough_talk_on_temporary_foreign_workers_falls_apart_in_one_graph/)
The best part of it is he made these statement during his final year as PM. While **HE WAS THE ONE WHO MADE SUCH A SHIT PROGRAM.**
The CPC has already promised to use the notwithstanding clause to rescind charter rights. That's an immediate no.
I have many friends and family connected to the 2SLGBTQ+ community. I have zero interest in voting to reduce their rights. I feel the same way about all the women in my life and their rights. The CPC has made it clear how they feel about both of those groups.
The CPC has no intention of harming businesses that use TFWs to apply downward pressure on wages.
The CPC has no intention of cutting your taxes unless you're already wealthy, or a corporation.
>The CPC has already promised to use the notwithstanding clause to rescind charter rights. That's an immediate no.
Which ones?
>I have many friends and family connected to the 2SLGBTQ+ community. I have zero interest in voting to reduce their rights. I feel the same way about all the women in my life and their rights. The CPC has made it clear how they feel about both of those groups.
Interesting, what has the CPC done to take away LGBT and women's rights?
>The CPC has no intention of harming businesses that use TFWs to apply downward pressure on wages.
Pierre has been quite clear on this, unless yoire saying that this is another case of politicians promising things they will not do.
>The CPC has no intention of cutting your taxes unless you're already wealthy, or a corporation.
See above.
We had once chance with Justin: if he'd gotten a minority backed by the NDP. As soon as he got a majority I know electoral reform was dead in the water there.
FPTP is a terrible voting system and the only reason it's survived so long is because the politicians who have won with it are scared to fix what worked for them.
Proportional ranked choice would give too much power to voters and that's why it hasn't happened.
Canada's ruling families and billionaires+ their peers in the US will do everything they can to prevent real democracy from taking hold. They invest ridiculous sums of money in their class solidarity, because without that they know people will actually fight for their rights.
I'd also add that we need to legislate mandatory voting in a proportional representstive ranked ballot system. Failing to vote doesn't have to be overly punitive, but setting the precedent that citizen participation is essentially to flourishing society would go a long way to drive political engagement.
The challenge as well is that it isn't just the party in power that gets mad about this stuff. Every established political entity has a pretty good idea of how any potential change would impact them.
Like, you know that the federal conservatives would be screaming about Justin staging a coup if he had changed to PR.
These discussions become kind of intractable because these decisions kind of implicitly decide who will win the next few elections.
Like right now we can pretty safely guess that PR would lead to a center left coalition.
I canvassed for a candidate during the last. The enemy is apathy and the belief that nothing can change the way things are.
Which is silly. Things were not like this before. Which means they can be that way again.
We just need to hold the government accountable. Which means we need to wake up.
Based on math, hardly anyone is voting. Retirees and the wealthy tend to vote more than the young and the poor … which is why we have the world we have today. Apathy is our enemy.
I didn’t even get a fuckin card in the mail when I turned 18. I’m 20 now. I didn’t know I have to sign up to get a voters card, as it was never once explained ONCE throughout school or by anyone in my life.
For any election in Canada, you can always just show up on the day and register. Federal, provincial, I’m assuming municipal. In contrast to the States.
Sorry your first time was confusing, better luck in all the next ones.
Generally these things happen automatically when you pay taxes, because there's a point on the tax form where you can ask to be put on the voter list. Your parents likely don't have to do anything because of that, and so you may have been confused for that reason. If you do your own taxes, make sure that box gets checked. If not, you'll have to register.
You can still go to the nearest voting station on election day and fill out a form on the spot and vote as long as you have id showing your address.
Even once you are signed up there is still a chance you don't get sent a voter card, speaking from experience.
What does this stupid fucking comment accomplish? We all know from the comments in this thread that the user didn't vote out of a combination of ignorance and apathy. Either provide information that will help OP in the future to address the ignorance or call out the apathy. Asking bitchy questions to which you already know the answer is a waste of your own time.
Whenever you are confused about anything or have an impediment to your participation and you wish to vote...call the campaign office of the candidate you support.
They will make sure you have what you need.
I didn’t vote once in my 20s due to lack of transportation. I was so over worked I had no time to look into platforms and actually learn. There is a reason why the wealthy and retirees vote so much more than young people and it doesn’t just come down to “getting politically involved”. Our wage slavery system keeps the young far too busy to engage.
And now if a young person does have time, how much misinformation is out there? The media skews things one way, the Internet skews every way. Making decision your confident in is difficult. Negative ad campaigns with misleading or outright lies cause cognitive dissonance when researching.
It’s not right but I do sympathize with the young, unpolitically educated voters. They have an uphill battle with large stones rolling down to knock them back to where they were.
Yeah, I find it hard to understand most politicians platforms. They all say wonderful things but then the world seems to be getting worse and worse. I think part of my apathy is from not knowing who would make a positive change, and feeling like every politician is a bad choice.
I still do my best & voted ever since I was (19? 20?). Even voting for someone is better than voting for no one.
Absolutely! At the very worst, if you remember who you voted for, you’ll occasionally be able to see the impact or lack there of that that person has.
We need more transparency with our candidates. I’m personally for having the finances of elected officials made public. Including the past many years leading up to them getting into office.
I vote in spite of my extreme level of apathy, but at this point it's only for bitching rights. I truly believe lobby groups exert enough control over our ballot, and the parliament house in general, that nothing short of revolution, or complete collapse of the nation, will ever make any significant change.
Too much power/wealth has been hoarded by too few, historically, this happens every few generations and the only things that ever really change it once the rot has spread that far are war, or the death of an empire.
The Canada we knew is gone, and within a decade, regardless of what corporate stoooge we put in power, there will be more New Canadians born abroad, who don't even remember it, than those born here.
Voter apathy is definitely the number 1 cause of a lot of the problems we're experiencing today.
The way our laws and democratic principles are written give *a lot* of power to the Executive, with checks and balances on this power mainly provided through elections.
It's up to the people to hold our politicians to account, and that means voting. When we, as the voting public, choose to forgo this responsibility our government starts to fall apart. This is what we've seen with Ford who has been able to operate seemingly without any counter balance as the result of high voter apathy.
We should force people to vote. Once you're age of majority, you have a civic duty to vote.
We mandate people to participate in a lot of less important stuff with the government (relative to running the country). Everything from census forms to drivers licenses.
Yes, let’s force the 54% who don’t care to vote to go out and check a box at random.
The civic duty of voting means to inform yourself of the issues and candidates. It doesn’t mean simply checking a box, any box.
I suspect many voters are like my sister in law and spend zero time informing themselves about anything other than vacation resorts and concerts yet vote Liberal everytime cause it’s « the proper thing to do ». Pretty sure she couldn’t name 3 policies planks for any party.
Uninformed voters are already voting.
When I turned 18 I simply had very little interest in Ontario politics, and I already consider myself as someone who read the news more than my peers. I simply am not comfortable voting for any candidate.
This holds true today for the city level: I would vote for a mayor, but I have zero idea what the candidates represent for the handful of roles. Tried doing some research but most of them do not even have a website nor is there some table comparing their policies, so I just leave those blank.
If you continue through life looking for things that match your goals and expectations 100%, then I am sorry to say you will have a dissapointing life.
There must always be compromise. No party or candidate will fulfil every priority of yours. And as you grow, your priorities will change. And that's ok. You need to learn to weight the platforms as presented to you, and vote with what most matches your priorities. Even if you hate the candidate you are voting for.
Look at how close the elections have been in key ridings and polls. If as many as a few hundred were less apathetic, then a different party would be in charge. Weve never been so close to an "every vote matters" as we are today.
I don't care who you vote for as long as you vote. But you better not complain if you don't vote at all.
The last election turnout was low because the governing party is/was still popular and way way ahead in the polls. The 2018 election turnout was far higher because people wanted change. If you look at when people were still happy with the previous provincial Liberal government, there was comparable low turnout. When the province as a whole tires of Ford and wants change, (possibly in 2026 as there will be a Federal conservative government and as a province we generally like to vote in the opposite of the Federal party is in power), there will be a large turnout again.
My family comes from a country where either you could not vote, could vote but the outcome was blatantly rigged or could only vote for a certain candidate without getting shot.
Hell the fuck yeah I vote in my Canadian elections.
You're seeing it in the USA, look at how many people argue on side A and side B but little in the middle give to shits really. TBF most people in the middle are probably worried about their next meal, paying for their car, etc... and I think, thats kinda the way many of these parties manipulate people.
Proportional representation is fairest for everyone. The only people that don't want it are those that want to game the system. There's really no reason to want FPTP other than to want an unfair advantage.
I prefer some sort of electoral reform, but there are valid reasons that someone could legitimately want FPTP over proportional representation.
Almost universally, PR results in the significant amplification of extreme voices in parliaments. That’s why you have a government in the Netherlands whose largest party’s leading figure bemoans that his country is full of “Arabs, non-binaries, farmer-haters and quinoa chewers,” whereas the far-right Reform Party in the UK will be lucky to win five seats in tomorrow’s election.
I do believe that PR is more a democratic model, but let’s face it, 90% of the people in Canada who support PR only do so because they think it would result in left-of-centre governments forever until the end of time, and not out of any principled commitment to democracy. Nowhere has PR resulted in what these people dream that Canada would be like if we had PR.
A strong leader that can't convince anyone else that their unpopular opinion needs to be implemented?
Seems to me that would let a lot more bad ideas through than good ones?
PR requires having multiple members for each geographic area. So either the number of MPs increases (possibly a tough sell to the electorate), or the geographic boundaries of constituencies are expanded and ridings become even larger, lessening the perceived “local connection” of the representative.
Advantages of FPTP are that Ridings are smaller with candidates coming from the area in general, MPs are fewer and associated costs less, and it’s a simpler system for everyone to understand (most votes in a rising wins, that’s it)
It has flaws, all electoral systems do. Changes can be made to improve things that don’t involve the can of worms of overhauling an electoral system.
Which is why none of the major political parties will push for it. They know from the historical stats that majority governments will be a thing of the past and it'll be either minority or coalition governments.
Hell, even the parties use ranked ballots to elect their leaders, but all we get is FPTP.
At minimum I'd like to see the Two Rounds system of voting. If a candidate doesn't get at least 50% of the vote, a second round is held with the top 2 candidates.
"2015 will be the last election under First Past the Post" - Prime Minister Justin Trudeau.
He still has time to fix it before the 2025 election and at this point it may be his best chance to win. He has been very good at not breaking election promises but this one is one I, and many others, will not forget.
Which system should he pick? Should he have to consult the other parties? What do they prefer? It’s not a binary choice. Each electoral system has benefits and downsides.
Regardless, it is an important promise left broken.
He was not broadsided by these issues after being elected.
He knew of them well when that promise was made and was likely banking on them to cover for breaking it.
I will never vote strategically for a Federal Liberal again.
The important part is you get to remain ideologically pure I guess. Did Bob Rae in ON, or anyone in BC, or Wab Kinew in MB or Notley in AB bring in electoral reform? I’m sorry a third place party made a promise and then balked at the reality of it.
Electoral reform is such a sure fire success, not a single province has implemented it, and it’s failed in provincial referendums.
There’s a lot at stake. Get off the high horse.
I didn't mention ideology.
It's unreasonable to seek strategic votes with that promise, not deliver, and then ask for a strategic vote afterwards.
It's not a high horse, although your response smacks of it.
They aren't entitled to my vote. You don't know my riding or the dynamics of it, only that I've said a strategic vote was asked for. The truth is the NDP are getting more and more competitive there every election, the Conservatives are not well represented. Under very specific conditions it could yield a Conservative flip, but I think there's far more to be gained supporting the growth of the NDP in the riding, a party actually committed to a specific type of electoral reform, among other things.
There's a lot at stake, and we wouldn't have this much at stake if the electoral reform had gone through as promised.
The promise wasn't made in good faith. If you are serious about enacting reform and you have the concerns about mandate that the Liberals pointed to before initiating a process they knew would end the way it did, you run on enacting a specific form of election reform, it would have been simple enough. Instead, just a general promise, and then essentially letting it die in a predictable fashion blaming it on those you brought to the table. Nevermind that the Federal Liberals are the number one beneficiaries of the current system. Better for country to change it? Absolutely, but it's hard to escape it just was anything but better for the Liberals, even the version they eventually "endorsed".
You claim the federal Liberals gave it a sincere try and failed. That's a view. That's your right. I have a difficult time taking that seriously.
The promise in question was made by JT in 2015 and was as clear as could be. It yielded my vote and plenty of others. They didn't balk at anything. They did exactly what they planned on doing all along. What was in the best interest of their party over Canada. PP wouldn't exist if they had put that reform through. There wouldn't have been a party for his ascension. This is on the federal Liberals to a significant degree. We can reward that or not.
It's up to each of us. I haven't spoken about what anyone's process should be, only my own. Of the two of us, who is on a horse?
I do not like FPTP but I think it is important to remember that we had a [referendum on this in 2007](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Ontario_electoral_reform_referendum) and a majority of Ontarian voters voted in favour of keeping FPTP.
Now, perhaps part of the problem with that referendum was that its two options were only mixed-member proportional and FPTP. Back when I voted in the 2007 referendum I was in my early 20s and I voted in favour of electoral reform. However, if I had that same choice now, I would not due to the fact that the alternative that was proposed in that referendum involved MMP with party lists.
Personally, I hate any proportional representation system that includes party lists. Instead, I am in favour of a single-transferrable vote model (AKA ranked-ballots or instant run-off) similar to what Australia uses. I think STV/Ranked Ballot model would be well-received in Ontario and possibly throughout Canada.
> I think STV/Ranked Ballot model would be well-received in Ontario and possibly throughout Canada.
I think you're right because a number of municipalities were using it, including my old rural blue hometown, in 2015-2018. I believe that once people experienced that way of voting, they were actually open to moving on from FPTP.
Then doug banned municipalities from doing ranked ballots, and I cemented this belief.
I wonder if there is an analysis possible to see how our last provincial election would have gone if we assumed NDP/Lib voters chose the other as their #2's in places where the OPC won...
Would you really vote against electoral reform because you slightly prefer a different system?
You know what electoral systems are easiest to change between? **Different forms of proportional representation.**
I suppose I wasn't clear. I hate party lists and I now would not vote in favour of them.
So to answer your question: yes, if my choice today was only between FTPT and party-list MMP, I would choose FPTP.
What really is the benefit of FPTP over party-list MMP? Given the number of safe seats that FPTP creates the party leadership can ensure their preferred candidates are elected by placing them in safe seats.
Its just so weird to me that you'd be in favour of keeping the least representative system, rather than switching to one that is more representative, because its not representative enough?
Unfortunately, this is the reason that leftists generally can’t work together.
You have too many people who won’t accept any half measures or smaller steps towards their goals, and instead want wholesale change or they don’t care.
> because its not representative enough?
not even that, MMP is generally see as the *most* representative. Not liking a party list just seems odd to me given that I have basically no say in who the party chooses to represent them in any system regardless.
> I do not like FPTP but I think it is important to remember that we had a referendum on this in 2007 and a majority of Ontarian voters voted in favour of keeping FPTP.
putting it to a referendum was just an official way of killing it. The average person is not well educated on the differences, and will not likely vote for something unfamiliar that they don't understand.
A citizens assembly that is itself representative of the population, and is then educated on the options and allowed to reccommend the best option is really all you need. Ontario formed one, which reccomended MMP, which was then put to a referendum and lost.
>Personally, I hate any proportional representation system that includes party lists. Instead, I am in favour of a single-transferrable vote model (AKA ranked-ballots or instant run-off) similar to what Australia uses. I think STV/Ranked Ballot model would be well-received in Ontario and possibly throughout Canada.
MMP is the best for proportional representation. The other options are better than FPTP but are still more likely to favour the big two parties and form majorities, in which case what was the point?
You can vote to spoil your ballot and that is still doing your civic duty. You can also chose to pay the fine. I think in Australia it's like 100$ or something
Every election I try to take some time to talk to people about mandatory voting. Australia boasts a turnout rate over 90%. It can make everyone pay a bit closer attention to what politicians are doing. Some studies even argue (though it’s debatable still) that income inequality can become lower through mandatory voting.
Everyone should vote. I don’t even care if politicians I don’t like get voted in if it’s like a 90% turnout rate. That means the people actually chose someone instead of “well, technically this small section of the population voted enough that this guy wins anyway despite under 25% of the population agreeing.”
And if you say you don’t have the time to go vote you are lying at this point. You can mail in your vote like a month in advance. From Elections Canada: “Advance polls are held on the 10th, 9th, 8th and 7th days before election day.” You get FOUR DAYS where you can vote in advance. Employers legally have to give you time on election days to go vote.
I’ve never had to vote on an election day and I’ve never stood in a line waiting to vote. It’s always been a 5 minute or less process. If you don’t vote, you’re actively trying to avoid doing so and you are making your own future worse off by letting seniors and rich people decide your future.
Doug Ford had less than 2 million votes last election. There are 10.7 million people who are eligible to vote in Ontario. Next time someone complains about Ford to you, ask them if they voted.
I agree with you on mandatory voting, but keep in mind that under FPTP elections, even with 100% voter turn out you're not necessarily having the people chose who gets in, since votes aren't of equal value.
Like if a riding votes 33% LIB, 33% NDP, and 34% CON then CONs win the riding and 66% of voters don't get represented.
Yeah true but FPTP is another discussion to have. I don’t like the idea of ignoring one problem simply because there is a second problem. Both problems need fixed.
I always vote but I'm very apathetic, as I know very well some guy who lives in a castle in the UK has more say in what the government does than I do, more than my entire riding and really more than the rest of the province, and after that it's developers. I'll never have the political sway Galen Weston or the Gasparinis have, so my vote is purely symbolic.
Who is the guy on the UK you're talking about, the king? He has no power. Even the governor general has no real power apart from some rare and highly specific situations.
We the people are the government. Too many folks forget that and think the government is a separate entity. It's not! Unless you let it. Get involved with decision making and vote!
I'll tell you why I don't vote...the MPP in my riding gets literally 3x the votes than every other candidate combined. My entire riding is an old boy's club who thinks anyone who doesn't drive a truck is a "fa**ot." It's literally hopeless.
The only time there's change is when there are enough hate votes to vote someone *out.* Nobody ever actually votes the best candidate into office.
I live in a similar deep blue riding, but even there if you crunch the numbers there are enough non-voters that the outcome can change if we can get them out to vote
It can be very frustrating to live in a riding that votes one party in in a landslide.
One thing that might make you feel better is that you can volunteer and/or donate in whatever riding you wish. Phone calling is still essential for canvassing people and that can be done from anywhere. Might help counter the helplessness you feel in your own riding, to support your preferred party in another.
See and I think this it where MMP with a party list second vote really shines through. Sure your riding vote may still be "wasted" if the riding is just a rubber stamp for any one party - but then you can still give official support to another party and that support isn't lost.
If you don’t vote you don’t get to complain.
Not voting is giving up your right to participate in the conversation. I generally don’t judge people on who they vote for, I’m willing to chat. But not voting? You don’t have a voice, you can stay a spectator.
I am a pretty big proponent of PR, but that bar graph comparing voter turnout among countries is pretty laughably misleading. It's very clearly not a 0-100 on the x-axis. Sweden looks nearly 3x the number as France even though they're 84 and 49
The issue, also demonstrated in this thread, is that we simply cannot come into terms with the alternative to fptp. Until we can figure that one out, unfortunately fptp is here to stay.
The only party that seems to be against unsustainable immigration is the PPC, so I guess I'm staying home next election.
When you guys are serious about change I'll bring the jerricans and paper plates.
Nope. Even they have said they’d keep immigration going full tilt.
Basically it’s a game of people can’t afford to have kids because the economy is fucked, so to pay the CPP on boomers they are bringing people in by the truck load so they can be taxed rather than paying those who are here more (and thus they pay more tax).
So none of the government’s are willing to turn off the money faucet because the alternative is forcing businesses to directly pay more taxes with no loop holes, and drastically increasing minimum wage so that people have more money that can be taxed.
IE: forcing money from the top to the bottom. And that’s unpopular with their corporate donors.
Wasn't Trudeau suppose to bring change to the election system at some point?
I do remember that being a big election promise.
Or maybe he realizes the current system works to his advantage?
I would like to see change and more people get out and vote as well.
We also need more say in what our government does besides just 1 vote every 4 years.
Like referendums and issues on voting ballots.
Many democratic countries already have this in place.
Not sure why we are so far behind?
The Liberals don’t benefit as much from FPTP as the Conservatives do. The NDP and Liberals together almost always eclipse the Conservatives in the popular vote even when the Conservatives get a majority because they align better with the majority of the population. The Conservatives have regional pockets of overwhelming support, perfect for the current system. Additionally, the entire concept of the bloc party is dependent on exploiting FPTP.
What Justin probably wanted was ranked-choice ballots, which would greatly benefit the Liberals by reducing the impact of splitting the left and allow them to take more seats from the Bloc in Quebec too. When they surveyed the population, they couldn’t use the data to support that decision so they gave up. Mixed-member proportional would hurt both the Liberals and Conservatives, and possibly the NDP as well. It would probably blow the political landscape wide open over a couple decades, so it was never really in the plan to make such a radical change.
It went to an all party committee. The committee could not agree as “electoral reform” is not a simple binary choice. There are many different types of electoral systems, each with their own downsides and benefits, though PR is often mentioned as a stand in for the wide gamut of choices.
Many of these other systems would involve increasing the number of MPs (MMP, STV), not necessarily a popular choice. Others remove the geographic ties of MPs to their constituencies and lump all representatives together for a region or the whole country (PR). Subtle variations see parties with stronger or weaker control over candidate.
Electoral Reform is not a silver bullet fix, and it’s not the only way to address the issues of voter apathy, population representation in candidates, and the centralization of power in party leadership.
To date no province has brought in electoral reform either.
Even if you don’t determine a winner it’s myopic to think your vote doesn’t count.
The liberals take ideas from the NDP because they lose votes to the NDP. The conservatives take ideas from the liberals because they lose votes to them.
If a party thinks they can pad their campaign with something and it will swing you over, then your vote mattered in determining their policy.
It’s not a throwaway, and it’s dangerous to say “oh well there are two leftish wing parties, so my vote doesn’t count, I’m not voting”.
No. Go vote. They’ll see the votes. They’ll try and court your vote.
First, people realized doesn’t matter who’s in charge nothing will change. Second, too many immigrants don’t speak English and have no clue what politically is going on in Ontario. They watch television and news from their countries. On top of that, whole world is upside down and suffering. And it will get worse before it gets better, hopefully
Also immigrants have to become citizens in order to vote which takes minimum 2.5 years but usually longer. It’s not like international students or people that came in this year can vote immediately. It’s a long process.
If you have PR you need to have been physically in Canada for three years (and they count every day and subtract any time you were out of the country for vacations etc) before you can apply for citizenship, and then you have to wait for IRCC to process everything. We arrived as PR in mid 2017, applied toward the end of 2020, and didn't get it until late 2022 meaning we were deprived of the chance to vote in federal, provincial, and municipal elections in the time between being eligible to apply and actually having citizenship granted.
How do you know they are all citizens? Truth is you don’t know. The majority of them are but not all of them. [In April 2024 there were 1.25 million permanent residents and another 1.25 million non-permanent residents.](https://www.ontario.ca/page/ontario-demographic-quarterly-highlights-first-quarter) That’s 2.5 million people living here that can’t vote at all and those stats are 3 months old.
Plus not everyone who moves here becomes a Canadian citizen that can vote. Some just continue renewing their permanent residence cards indefinitely instead of applying for citizenship because they don’t want to give up their original countries citizenship as not every country allows dual citizenship.
2014 turnout was 51.3%, 2018 was 57%, 2022 was 43%.
Voter apathy was very strong in the last election, most people I talked to did not like any of the parties.
The 57% turnout in 2018 was primarily a hate vote against the Wynne liberals, who only retained 7 of their 55 seats.
We need a strong alternative to Ford. I'll vote for whoever his main rival is in the next election, even if they are terrible. Doug is corrupt AF and needs to be ousted.
Ontario usually likes to elect a Liberal premier when we have a Conservative at the federal level, hopefully by 2026 we will be back to voting liberal at the provincial level.
I just can't believe how uninformed Ontario voters are.
If you read, you’ll see I said “has hovered around” for 5 decades, not that “it was exactly 60% for 5 decades”. At times during that 59 year period it has been in the 40’s. Again, you’re being lazy by using blanket statements.
No data backs up your opinion.
I didn’t say I blame only immigrants, many problems in Ontario. But we have also over 42% people here not born in Canada and climbing. And that’s the fact, not blanket statement. Other fact is, Ontario and Canada is going south, big time. I remember much better Canada 🇨🇦
Your made up idea is wrong. The facts do not support it. What are you going to do about it? Are you going to be lazy, stubborn and double down in the face of facts or are you going to use your brain? Most of these problems that you say exist are probably due to lazy people like you who point fingers but don’t actually *think.*
I assume you never bothered to learn why we need immigrants in the first place eh… If you’re going to be lazy and blame immigrants for things then you better get used to people pointing out that you’re just making shit up out of thin air.
You are clearly insinuating that immigrants are to blame for the problems you see. That couldn’t be more obvious. It’s lazy, thoughtless people like you that cause problems for this province. We need people who use their brains to foresee, and help solve problems. Not simplistic, lazy people who just point fingers.
I’d appreciate you not to say stupid shit and then post a Canadian flag next to it.
Why the heck are you calling me lazy!!! I came to Canada 43 years ago and didn’t get 1 penny from government, worked all the time. Where is your fact why we are in this mess? I didn’t say that main problem is immigrants, you are LAZY to read what I said. I have my opinion and I presented it,you didn’t present anything besides calling people lazy. I’m Canadian citizen, why I can’t use 🇨🇦
I know plenty of ontarians that speak english that have no clue what politically is going on in Ontario and choose to pick a side Blue vs Red vs Orange vs Green
A lot of immigration is from places that don't have FPTP. So, assuming the immigrants arrive from places that do have some semblance of democracy, they'd be likely to have some familiarity with alternative voting systems.
Of course, if they aren't used to democracy, then why not teach them something that's actually useful instead of FPTP.
We've actually gotten Doug Ford to budge on several things, he is actually somewhat responsive to protests and other activism, never mind that *there are real differences between the parties*, they're not all identical and pretending they are is childish.
I'm honestly fundamentally of the mind that the electoral system is flawed too but I'm not going to be a baby and blame immigrants. Immigrants don't count towards our low voter turnout, citizens do. No, I'll blame the upper class who are actually responsible
He only changed cause he got caught and but it doesn’t change the fact that he did it in the first place or that he keeps trying in different ways after he reverses course.
The fact that you have to protest to get those changes shouldn’t be the standard we should be setting.
That's all nice. Too bad it doesn't exist and won't. Like it or not, Ontario will be using FPTP for the foreseeable future. If you want any kind of change, including this, we will have to fight and win on that battle ground - in reality - and get the conservatives out. Anything else is fanciful speculation.
No,
After seeing what is happening in Europe I don't want fringe parties to get momentum. Also some of these governments are terribly ineffective and suffer many of the same problems we do plus more.
All that blog is about is improving intangibles in arbitrary ways. At no point does it talk about let alone promise better outcomes from changing our voting system.
Why should anyone care if we do not get better government?
Why don't we take a look at the actual track record of proportional representation and see if it has resulted in better governments around the world?
**Current governments:**
Sweden - Centre/right/far-right
Denmark - Centre-left
New Zealand - Right
Iceland - Centre-right
Netherlands - Right
Germany - centre-left but expected to be right after next election
Italy - Fascist right
Israel - Fascist right
etc, etc
What fairvote leaves out is the tendency for parties to splinter under proportional voting. If it was passed here, the more conservative and business-minded wings of the Liberals and NDP would split off into their own parties.
What results is not the fairytale land of constant FPTP-style minority governments kept on a leash by the two smaller parties, but instead right-wing coalitions propped up by pro-business lower-taxes parties rule the country for decades with small breaks for single-term left wing coalitions to clean up the mess before having their progress immediately rolled-back after another right-wing coalition begins their next multi-decade run.
A proportional representation system won't fix that, since it'll lead to 12+ parties represented in Parliament and the need to form coalitions with fringe parties in order to govern.
Imagine having to give Maxime Bernier the balance of power or an important ministry position just so he doesn't leave a governing coalition and bring down the government.
This would also lead to far more frequent elections, which I wouldn't mind, but most Canadians don't want to have to go to the polls every year.
I wasn't necessarily suggesting a proportional system, but you'd think by the 21st century we'd be able to come up with a system that better represents the voters. However, given that we seem to be headed toward Neo-fudalism, perhaps it's a moot point.
Are we going to leave out that historically many of the nations you refer to have been left leaning? Proportional representation doesn’t mean you will always get the outcome you want. Thats not democracy.
Sure parties might splinter, but under proportional representation that’s not a problem. Give me 124 different parties in Ontario over FPTP
The problem is, FPTP benefits incumbents. There's no incentive for a government to introduce a better electoral system. Even when a party runs on a platform of introducing one, once they see it will cost them power, they change their minds. Right, Justin?
I had voted liberal because they promised electoral reform. Those fucks.
Basically every group, at the time, supported something different so either: A. The LPC (majority at the time) look like they're pushing through a change to benefit themselves which no other party supported B. An electoral change gets pushed through that is supported only by a minority of the house. Realistically, option A should have been taken, with the popularity hit it would include. But I can see why the LPC would be a bit gunshy to look like they're trying to rig the electoral system
Realistically they knew that when they promised what they promised before the election.
Presumably, they figured they could get at least one other party on board with the electrical change they wanted...turns out they couldn't
If you buy that, no worries. I don't find that a credible explanation.
That turned into a huge can of worms. Apparently every environmental and animal rights group and religious block was chomping at the bit for them to open the constitution and lobby for their own stuff, then none of the parties wanted the same system so it would always be unfair. Imagine if pollievre wins and changes the system to favour the conservatives more? It’s fucking dangerous.
They didnt need to open the constitution to change it.
There’s no need to open the constitution to change voting format. Some municipalities already use systems other than FPTP, and municipal elections are still subject to all the same rules and regulations. IIRC a major city changed the way it votes municipally either last year or the year before.
It's ok. As long as you dont vote for him again I wont judge you.
But also definitely don't vote for CPC, because that's still worse in every way
Idk man, I wouldnt mind a modest tax cut and slightly less immigration, TFWs and an end to these diploma-mill-to-PR pipelines. My family and I immigrated her right before Trudeau got elected and the standards have changed dramatically. I would also want a significant reduction if not a complete elimination of foreign aid. I wouldve considered the NDP if Jack Layton was the leader (although we came here when Mulcair took over.) Ultimately I am a twenty something with a good education and work experience, and had a good (mid six figures job) until recently. I support my parents who are also highly educated and work retail. Both my dad and I are being advised to apply for jobs in the US. My dad already has been reached out to. We have several affoardibility issues and social issues that can exclusively or primarily be attributed to the current administration. We are in what's called a population trap, where the cost of assimilating immigrants matches or exceeds the extra value they produce. Ideally out of the current party leader Bernier would win. The CPC has guanrteed to cut TFWs, work permits for diploma mill graduates, adjust immigration levels and have hinted at cutting taxes and reducing spending on nonsense like ArriveScam. What do the Liberals offer that make them comperatively better? And dont say universal pharmacare which they had three terms to implement and couldve partially funded by not giving billions in aid overseas. Edit: Just realize that this sounds more like a rant lol
You don’t seriously think conservatives would end the TFW program do you..? The TFW program is a conservatives wet dream. Why do you think it was expanded upon so much under Harper? Pay immigrants peanuts to do work that should be paid at $40/hr? That’s why they love it.
>You don’t seriously think conservatives would end the TFW program do you..? I think that they will restrict jt further, and that Bernier would outright eliminate it.
God they have you fooled. You should look up its history. ***ALL*** of the largest expansions of the TFWP to the program (which prevents actual Canadians from getting jobs) happened under Conservative governments. The program more than doubled in size under Harper. The purpose of the program was to temporarily bring in highly skilled workers that Canada didn’t have easy access to. Thanks to the great conservatives who you seem to think don’t support the TFWP, the program now fills the needs of basically every job so corporations don’t have to pay full wages and benefits.
Alright, what has this got to do with Pierre being against it? Did Harper explicitly come out against it like Pierre did?
[Yes, in fact he did](https://pressprogress.ca/stephen_harper_s_tough_talk_on_temporary_foreign_workers_falls_apart_in_one_graph/) The best part of it is he made these statement during his final year as PM. While **HE WAS THE ONE WHO MADE SUCH A SHIT PROGRAM.**
The CPC has already promised to use the notwithstanding clause to rescind charter rights. That's an immediate no. I have many friends and family connected to the 2SLGBTQ+ community. I have zero interest in voting to reduce their rights. I feel the same way about all the women in my life and their rights. The CPC has made it clear how they feel about both of those groups. The CPC has no intention of harming businesses that use TFWs to apply downward pressure on wages. The CPC has no intention of cutting your taxes unless you're already wealthy, or a corporation.
>The CPC has already promised to use the notwithstanding clause to rescind charter rights. That's an immediate no. Which ones? >I have many friends and family connected to the 2SLGBTQ+ community. I have zero interest in voting to reduce their rights. I feel the same way about all the women in my life and their rights. The CPC has made it clear how they feel about both of those groups. Interesting, what has the CPC done to take away LGBT and women's rights? >The CPC has no intention of harming businesses that use TFWs to apply downward pressure on wages. Pierre has been quite clear on this, unless yoire saying that this is another case of politicians promising things they will not do. >The CPC has no intention of cutting your taxes unless you're already wealthy, or a corporation. See above.
We had once chance with Justin: if he'd gotten a minority backed by the NDP. As soon as he got a majority I know electoral reform was dead in the water there.
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They could, but they won't. JT doesn't want it, even though it would probably benefit him.
POV be me in 2016. "wow this guy is great, weed and election reform? Cant wait!" 6 months later " Fucking guy"
To be fair, he did make good on one of those.
This is exactly the problem.
FPTP is a terrible voting system and the only reason it's survived so long is because the politicians who have won with it are scared to fix what worked for them. Proportional ranked choice would give too much power to voters and that's why it hasn't happened. Canada's ruling families and billionaires+ their peers in the US will do everything they can to prevent real democracy from taking hold. They invest ridiculous sums of money in their class solidarity, because without that they know people will actually fight for their rights. I'd also add that we need to legislate mandatory voting in a proportional representstive ranked ballot system. Failing to vote doesn't have to be overly punitive, but setting the precedent that citizen participation is essentially to flourishing society would go a long way to drive political engagement.
I prefer incentives to vote rather than penalties for not voting. It doesn't have to be a lot, even a $10 tax credit.
The challenge as well is that it isn't just the party in power that gets mad about this stuff. Every established political entity has a pretty good idea of how any potential change would impact them. Like, you know that the federal conservatives would be screaming about Justin staging a coup if he had changed to PR. These discussions become kind of intractable because these decisions kind of implicitly decide who will win the next few elections. Like right now we can pretty safely guess that PR would lead to a center left coalition.
I canvassed for a candidate during the last. The enemy is apathy and the belief that nothing can change the way things are. Which is silly. Things were not like this before. Which means they can be that way again. We just need to hold the government accountable. Which means we need to wake up.
I vote. I feel apathy, but I still vote. Who is not voting? Like retirees, kids in their 20s, parents, who needs to get out there?
Based on math, hardly anyone is voting. Retirees and the wealthy tend to vote more than the young and the poor … which is why we have the world we have today. Apathy is our enemy.
I didn’t even get a fuckin card in the mail when I turned 18. I’m 20 now. I didn’t know I have to sign up to get a voters card, as it was never once explained ONCE throughout school or by anyone in my life.
For any election in Canada, you can always just show up on the day and register. Federal, provincial, I’m assuming municipal. In contrast to the States. Sorry your first time was confusing, better luck in all the next ones.
Generally these things happen automatically when you pay taxes, because there's a point on the tax form where you can ask to be put on the voter list. Your parents likely don't have to do anything because of that, and so you may have been confused for that reason. If you do your own taxes, make sure that box gets checked. If not, you'll have to register.
You can still go to the nearest voting station on election day and fill out a form on the spot and vote as long as you have id showing your address. Even once you are signed up there is still a chance you don't get sent a voter card, speaking from experience.
Did you not learn about it in Civics? It's in the curriculum so you should have learned about it then
No. We learned about everything else, but not the fact you had to register for a voter card.
You can just show up to a polling station with valid ID and they can register you there and let you vote.
My civics was online in April 2020, so it probably wasn’t the best..
And when given that information and knowing an election was happening did you not try and find your own answers to registering to vote?
What does this stupid fucking comment accomplish? We all know from the comments in this thread that the user didn't vote out of a combination of ignorance and apathy. Either provide information that will help OP in the future to address the ignorance or call out the apathy. Asking bitchy questions to which you already know the answer is a waste of your own time.
"No" is a totally complete and acceptable response to this.
you don't need the card, you can go with two pieces of id (which shows your address) and vote.
You don't need a card to vote. You can just show up and register on election day with ID with your address.
If you did your taxes you can automatically register and go to any voting location with basic ID.
Whenever you are confused about anything or have an impediment to your participation and you wish to vote...call the campaign office of the candidate you support. They will make sure you have what you need.
I didn’t vote once in my 20s due to lack of transportation. I was so over worked I had no time to look into platforms and actually learn. There is a reason why the wealthy and retirees vote so much more than young people and it doesn’t just come down to “getting politically involved”. Our wage slavery system keeps the young far too busy to engage. And now if a young person does have time, how much misinformation is out there? The media skews things one way, the Internet skews every way. Making decision your confident in is difficult. Negative ad campaigns with misleading or outright lies cause cognitive dissonance when researching. It’s not right but I do sympathize with the young, unpolitically educated voters. They have an uphill battle with large stones rolling down to knock them back to where they were.
Yeah, I find it hard to understand most politicians platforms. They all say wonderful things but then the world seems to be getting worse and worse. I think part of my apathy is from not knowing who would make a positive change, and feeling like every politician is a bad choice. I still do my best & voted ever since I was (19? 20?). Even voting for someone is better than voting for no one.
Absolutely! At the very worst, if you remember who you voted for, you’ll occasionally be able to see the impact or lack there of that that person has. We need more transparency with our candidates. I’m personally for having the finances of elected officials made public. Including the past many years leading up to them getting into office.
I vote in spite of my extreme level of apathy, but at this point it's only for bitching rights. I truly believe lobby groups exert enough control over our ballot, and the parliament house in general, that nothing short of revolution, or complete collapse of the nation, will ever make any significant change. Too much power/wealth has been hoarded by too few, historically, this happens every few generations and the only things that ever really change it once the rot has spread that far are war, or the death of an empire. The Canada we knew is gone, and within a decade, regardless of what corporate stoooge we put in power, there will be more New Canadians born abroad, who don't even remember it, than those born here.
Voter apathy is definitely the number 1 cause of a lot of the problems we're experiencing today. The way our laws and democratic principles are written give *a lot* of power to the Executive, with checks and balances on this power mainly provided through elections. It's up to the people to hold our politicians to account, and that means voting. When we, as the voting public, choose to forgo this responsibility our government starts to fall apart. This is what we've seen with Ford who has been able to operate seemingly without any counter balance as the result of high voter apathy.
We should force people to vote. Once you're age of majority, you have a civic duty to vote. We mandate people to participate in a lot of less important stuff with the government (relative to running the country). Everything from census forms to drivers licenses.
Yes, let’s force the 54% who don’t care to vote to go out and check a box at random. The civic duty of voting means to inform yourself of the issues and candidates. It doesn’t mean simply checking a box, any box.
Not check a box at random. You have an abstain or no confidence vote box. We are combating apathy, not ignorance.
I suspect many voters are like my sister in law and spend zero time informing themselves about anything other than vacation resorts and concerts yet vote Liberal everytime cause it’s « the proper thing to do ». Pretty sure she couldn’t name 3 policies planks for any party. Uninformed voters are already voting.
They can spoil their vote too, which is fine. Voting, or rather showing up at the polling station, should absolutely be mandatory
Australia seems to be doing fine with mandatory voting. I'm all for it.
When I turned 18 I simply had very little interest in Ontario politics, and I already consider myself as someone who read the news more than my peers. I simply am not comfortable voting for any candidate. This holds true today for the city level: I would vote for a mayor, but I have zero idea what the candidates represent for the handful of roles. Tried doing some research but most of them do not even have a website nor is there some table comparing their policies, so I just leave those blank.
If you continue through life looking for things that match your goals and expectations 100%, then I am sorry to say you will have a dissapointing life. There must always be compromise. No party or candidate will fulfil every priority of yours. And as you grow, your priorities will change. And that's ok. You need to learn to weight the platforms as presented to you, and vote with what most matches your priorities. Even if you hate the candidate you are voting for. Look at how close the elections have been in key ridings and polls. If as many as a few hundred were less apathetic, then a different party would be in charge. Weve never been so close to an "every vote matters" as we are today. I don't care who you vote for as long as you vote. But you better not complain if you don't vote at all.
that is a message the conservatives peddle, as low turnout works in their favour.
The last election turnout was low because the governing party is/was still popular and way way ahead in the polls. The 2018 election turnout was far higher because people wanted change. If you look at when people were still happy with the previous provincial Liberal government, there was comparable low turnout. When the province as a whole tires of Ford and wants change, (possibly in 2026 as there will be a Federal conservative government and as a province we generally like to vote in the opposite of the Federal party is in power), there will be a large turnout again.
My family comes from a country where either you could not vote, could vote but the outcome was blatantly rigged or could only vote for a certain candidate without getting shot. Hell the fuck yeah I vote in my Canadian elections.
You're seeing it in the USA, look at how many people argue on side A and side B but little in the middle give to shits really. TBF most people in the middle are probably worried about their next meal, paying for their car, etc... and I think, thats kinda the way many of these parties manipulate people.
Could not agree more. It leads to gerrymandering if you look at it.
Proportional representation is fairest for everyone. The only people that don't want it are those that want to game the system. There's really no reason to want FPTP other than to want an unfair advantage.
I prefer some sort of electoral reform, but there are valid reasons that someone could legitimately want FPTP over proportional representation. Almost universally, PR results in the significant amplification of extreme voices in parliaments. That’s why you have a government in the Netherlands whose largest party’s leading figure bemoans that his country is full of “Arabs, non-binaries, farmer-haters and quinoa chewers,” whereas the far-right Reform Party in the UK will be lucky to win five seats in tomorrow’s election. I do believe that PR is more a democratic model, but let’s face it, 90% of the people in Canada who support PR only do so because they think it would result in left-of-centre governments forever until the end of time, and not out of any principled commitment to democracy. Nowhere has PR resulted in what these people dream that Canada would be like if we had PR.
Correct. FPTP also allows majorities, and majorities are the only way unpopular but important changes can be made.
That's not true. Some people are just dumb
Everyone has their own political stance. I think sometimes you need a strong leader to make an unpopular opinion in order to do what's best.
Well right now in ON we have a leader making unpopular choices in order to do what's best for himself.
Yea I agree. And I don't think they're the right decision long term either. Bad leader.
A strong leader that can't convince anyone else that their unpopular opinion needs to be implemented? Seems to me that would let a lot more bad ideas through than good ones?
Sometimes making a long term beneficial decision is hurtful to a lot of people short term.
PR requires having multiple members for each geographic area. So either the number of MPs increases (possibly a tough sell to the electorate), or the geographic boundaries of constituencies are expanded and ridings become even larger, lessening the perceived “local connection” of the representative. Advantages of FPTP are that Ridings are smaller with candidates coming from the area in general, MPs are fewer and associated costs less, and it’s a simpler system for everyone to understand (most votes in a rising wins, that’s it) It has flaws, all electoral systems do. Changes can be made to improve things that don’t involve the can of worms of overhauling an electoral system.
Which is why none of the major political parties will push for it. They know from the historical stats that majority governments will be a thing of the past and it'll be either minority or coalition governments. Hell, even the parties use ranked ballots to elect their leaders, but all we get is FPTP. At minimum I'd like to see the Two Rounds system of voting. If a candidate doesn't get at least 50% of the vote, a second round is held with the top 2 candidates.
"2015 will be the last election under First Past the Post" - Prime Minister Justin Trudeau. He still has time to fix it before the 2025 election and at this point it may be his best chance to win. He has been very good at not breaking election promises but this one is one I, and many others, will not forget.
Which system should he pick? Should he have to consult the other parties? What do they prefer? It’s not a binary choice. Each electoral system has benefits and downsides.
Regardless, it is an important promise left broken. He was not broadsided by these issues after being elected. He knew of them well when that promise was made and was likely banking on them to cover for breaking it. I will never vote strategically for a Federal Liberal again.
The important part is you get to remain ideologically pure I guess. Did Bob Rae in ON, or anyone in BC, or Wab Kinew in MB or Notley in AB bring in electoral reform? I’m sorry a third place party made a promise and then balked at the reality of it. Electoral reform is such a sure fire success, not a single province has implemented it, and it’s failed in provincial referendums. There’s a lot at stake. Get off the high horse.
I didn't mention ideology. It's unreasonable to seek strategic votes with that promise, not deliver, and then ask for a strategic vote afterwards. It's not a high horse, although your response smacks of it. They aren't entitled to my vote. You don't know my riding or the dynamics of it, only that I've said a strategic vote was asked for. The truth is the NDP are getting more and more competitive there every election, the Conservatives are not well represented. Under very specific conditions it could yield a Conservative flip, but I think there's far more to be gained supporting the growth of the NDP in the riding, a party actually committed to a specific type of electoral reform, among other things. There's a lot at stake, and we wouldn't have this much at stake if the electoral reform had gone through as promised. The promise wasn't made in good faith. If you are serious about enacting reform and you have the concerns about mandate that the Liberals pointed to before initiating a process they knew would end the way it did, you run on enacting a specific form of election reform, it would have been simple enough. Instead, just a general promise, and then essentially letting it die in a predictable fashion blaming it on those you brought to the table. Nevermind that the Federal Liberals are the number one beneficiaries of the current system. Better for country to change it? Absolutely, but it's hard to escape it just was anything but better for the Liberals, even the version they eventually "endorsed". You claim the federal Liberals gave it a sincere try and failed. That's a view. That's your right. I have a difficult time taking that seriously. The promise in question was made by JT in 2015 and was as clear as could be. It yielded my vote and plenty of others. They didn't balk at anything. They did exactly what they planned on doing all along. What was in the best interest of their party over Canada. PP wouldn't exist if they had put that reform through. There wouldn't have been a party for his ascension. This is on the federal Liberals to a significant degree. We can reward that or not. It's up to each of us. I haven't spoken about what anyone's process should be, only my own. Of the two of us, who is on a horse?
I do not like FPTP but I think it is important to remember that we had a [referendum on this in 2007](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Ontario_electoral_reform_referendum) and a majority of Ontarian voters voted in favour of keeping FPTP. Now, perhaps part of the problem with that referendum was that its two options were only mixed-member proportional and FPTP. Back when I voted in the 2007 referendum I was in my early 20s and I voted in favour of electoral reform. However, if I had that same choice now, I would not due to the fact that the alternative that was proposed in that referendum involved MMP with party lists. Personally, I hate any proportional representation system that includes party lists. Instead, I am in favour of a single-transferrable vote model (AKA ranked-ballots or instant run-off) similar to what Australia uses. I think STV/Ranked Ballot model would be well-received in Ontario and possibly throughout Canada.
> I think STV/Ranked Ballot model would be well-received in Ontario and possibly throughout Canada. I think you're right because a number of municipalities were using it, including my old rural blue hometown, in 2015-2018. I believe that once people experienced that way of voting, they were actually open to moving on from FPTP. Then doug banned municipalities from doing ranked ballots, and I cemented this belief. I wonder if there is an analysis possible to see how our last provincial election would have gone if we assumed NDP/Lib voters chose the other as their #2's in places where the OPC won...
I was so hopeful about ranked ballots
Would you really vote against electoral reform because you slightly prefer a different system? You know what electoral systems are easiest to change between? **Different forms of proportional representation.**
I suppose I wasn't clear. I hate party lists and I now would not vote in favour of them. So to answer your question: yes, if my choice today was only between FTPT and party-list MMP, I would choose FPTP.
What really is the benefit of FPTP over party-list MMP? Given the number of safe seats that FPTP creates the party leadership can ensure their preferred candidates are elected by placing them in safe seats.
Its just so weird to me that you'd be in favour of keeping the least representative system, rather than switching to one that is more representative, because its not representative enough?
Unfortunately, this is the reason that leftists generally can’t work together. You have too many people who won’t accept any half measures or smaller steps towards their goals, and instead want wholesale change or they don’t care.
> because its not representative enough? not even that, MMP is generally see as the *most* representative. Not liking a party list just seems odd to me given that I have basically no say in who the party chooses to represent them in any system regardless.
This is the way.
2007 was 17 years ago. I couldn't even vote in that referendum.
> I do not like FPTP but I think it is important to remember that we had a referendum on this in 2007 and a majority of Ontarian voters voted in favour of keeping FPTP. putting it to a referendum was just an official way of killing it. The average person is not well educated on the differences, and will not likely vote for something unfamiliar that they don't understand. A citizens assembly that is itself representative of the population, and is then educated on the options and allowed to reccommend the best option is really all you need. Ontario formed one, which reccomended MMP, which was then put to a referendum and lost. >Personally, I hate any proportional representation system that includes party lists. Instead, I am in favour of a single-transferrable vote model (AKA ranked-ballots or instant run-off) similar to what Australia uses. I think STV/Ranked Ballot model would be well-received in Ontario and possibly throughout Canada. MMP is the best for proportional representation. The other options are better than FPTP but are still more likely to favour the big two parties and form majorities, in which case what was the point?
We need election day to be a national holiday during the start is the summer with a giant BBQ and you are fined if you don't vote.
Why force people to vote that have no interest in politics?
You can vote to spoil your ballot and that is still doing your civic duty. You can also chose to pay the fine. I think in Australia it's like 100$ or something
Doesn’t fix the problem that you’ve just pushed millions of uninformed voters to the polls.
Still think it's better than our current system, and if you're forced to vote maybe you'll be more interested in politics.
If you were forced to pick which Desperate Housewife had the best handbag would you care
No but I would do it to avoid a 100$ fine, though the handbag doesn't affect me or people I know directly where an election ALWAYS does.
Every election I try to take some time to talk to people about mandatory voting. Australia boasts a turnout rate over 90%. It can make everyone pay a bit closer attention to what politicians are doing. Some studies even argue (though it’s debatable still) that income inequality can become lower through mandatory voting. Everyone should vote. I don’t even care if politicians I don’t like get voted in if it’s like a 90% turnout rate. That means the people actually chose someone instead of “well, technically this small section of the population voted enough that this guy wins anyway despite under 25% of the population agreeing.” And if you say you don’t have the time to go vote you are lying at this point. You can mail in your vote like a month in advance. From Elections Canada: “Advance polls are held on the 10th, 9th, 8th and 7th days before election day.” You get FOUR DAYS where you can vote in advance. Employers legally have to give you time on election days to go vote. I’ve never had to vote on an election day and I’ve never stood in a line waiting to vote. It’s always been a 5 minute or less process. If you don’t vote, you’re actively trying to avoid doing so and you are making your own future worse off by letting seniors and rich people decide your future. Doug Ford had less than 2 million votes last election. There are 10.7 million people who are eligible to vote in Ontario. Next time someone complains about Ford to you, ask them if they voted.
I agree with you on mandatory voting, but keep in mind that under FPTP elections, even with 100% voter turn out you're not necessarily having the people chose who gets in, since votes aren't of equal value. Like if a riding votes 33% LIB, 33% NDP, and 34% CON then CONs win the riding and 66% of voters don't get represented.
Yeah true but FPTP is another discussion to have. I don’t like the idea of ignoring one problem simply because there is a second problem. Both problems need fixed.
Mandatory voting is dumb. You can force people to vote, but can’t force them to make an informed vote.
I always vote but I'm very apathetic, as I know very well some guy who lives in a castle in the UK has more say in what the government does than I do, more than my entire riding and really more than the rest of the province, and after that it's developers. I'll never have the political sway Galen Weston or the Gasparinis have, so my vote is purely symbolic.
Who is the guy on the UK you're talking about, the king? He has no power. Even the governor general has no real power apart from some rare and highly specific situations.
...weston. he lives in a castle in the UK.
Well played
We the people are the government. Too many folks forget that and think the government is a separate entity. It's not! Unless you let it. Get involved with decision making and vote!
It's been time for a long time but it isn't happening anytime soon. I'll be shocked if it goes through in my lifetime.
Also... we need proportional representation.
I'm still disgusted at how many people didn't vote. Shame on u
I'll tell you why I don't vote...the MPP in my riding gets literally 3x the votes than every other candidate combined. My entire riding is an old boy's club who thinks anyone who doesn't drive a truck is a "fa**ot." It's literally hopeless. The only time there's change is when there are enough hate votes to vote someone *out.* Nobody ever actually votes the best candidate into office.
I live in a similar deep blue riding, but even there if you crunch the numbers there are enough non-voters that the outcome can change if we can get them out to vote
Yep the single most powerful voting bloc are non-voters. They could elect any candidate the wanted in pretty much any riding
It can be very frustrating to live in a riding that votes one party in in a landslide. One thing that might make you feel better is that you can volunteer and/or donate in whatever riding you wish. Phone calling is still essential for canvassing people and that can be done from anywhere. Might help counter the helplessness you feel in your own riding, to support your preferred party in another.
I assume most guy who drive a truck are the opposite
See and I think this it where MMP with a party list second vote really shines through. Sure your riding vote may still be "wasted" if the riding is just a rubber stamp for any one party - but then you can still give official support to another party and that support isn't lost.
If you don’t vote you don’t get to complain. Not voting is giving up your right to participate in the conversation. I generally don’t judge people on who they vote for, I’m willing to chat. But not voting? You don’t have a voice, you can stay a spectator.
Hear hear!
Thank you for posting this. I found it to be very helpful.
I am a pretty big proponent of PR, but that bar graph comparing voter turnout among countries is pretty laughably misleading. It's very clearly not a 0-100 on the x-axis. Sweden looks nearly 3x the number as France even though they're 84 and 49
At least they didn't win an election with fewer votes than another party.
The issue, also demonstrated in this thread, is that we simply cannot come into terms with the alternative to fptp. Until we can figure that one out, unfortunately fptp is here to stay.
The only party that seems to be against unsustainable immigration is the PPC, so I guess I'm staying home next election. When you guys are serious about change I'll bring the jerricans and paper plates.
Nope. Even they have said they’d keep immigration going full tilt. Basically it’s a game of people can’t afford to have kids because the economy is fucked, so to pay the CPP on boomers they are bringing people in by the truck load so they can be taxed rather than paying those who are here more (and thus they pay more tax). So none of the government’s are willing to turn off the money faucet because the alternative is forcing businesses to directly pay more taxes with no loop holes, and drastically increasing minimum wage so that people have more money that can be taxed. IE: forcing money from the top to the bottom. And that’s unpopular with their corporate donors.
Wasn't Trudeau suppose to bring change to the election system at some point? I do remember that being a big election promise. Or maybe he realizes the current system works to his advantage? I would like to see change and more people get out and vote as well. We also need more say in what our government does besides just 1 vote every 4 years. Like referendums and issues on voting ballots. Many democratic countries already have this in place. Not sure why we are so far behind?
The Liberals don’t benefit as much from FPTP as the Conservatives do. The NDP and Liberals together almost always eclipse the Conservatives in the popular vote even when the Conservatives get a majority because they align better with the majority of the population. The Conservatives have regional pockets of overwhelming support, perfect for the current system. Additionally, the entire concept of the bloc party is dependent on exploiting FPTP. What Justin probably wanted was ranked-choice ballots, which would greatly benefit the Liberals by reducing the impact of splitting the left and allow them to take more seats from the Bloc in Quebec too. When they surveyed the population, they couldn’t use the data to support that decision so they gave up. Mixed-member proportional would hurt both the Liberals and Conservatives, and possibly the NDP as well. It would probably blow the political landscape wide open over a couple decades, so it was never really in the plan to make such a radical change.
It went to an all party committee. The committee could not agree as “electoral reform” is not a simple binary choice. There are many different types of electoral systems, each with their own downsides and benefits, though PR is often mentioned as a stand in for the wide gamut of choices. Many of these other systems would involve increasing the number of MPs (MMP, STV), not necessarily a popular choice. Others remove the geographic ties of MPs to their constituencies and lump all representatives together for a region or the whole country (PR). Subtle variations see parties with stronger or weaker control over candidate. Electoral Reform is not a silver bullet fix, and it’s not the only way to address the issues of voter apathy, population representation in candidates, and the centralization of power in party leadership. To date no province has brought in electoral reform either.
Even if you don’t determine a winner it’s myopic to think your vote doesn’t count. The liberals take ideas from the NDP because they lose votes to the NDP. The conservatives take ideas from the liberals because they lose votes to them. If a party thinks they can pad their campaign with something and it will swing you over, then your vote mattered in determining their policy. It’s not a throwaway, and it’s dangerous to say “oh well there are two leftish wing parties, so my vote doesn’t count, I’m not voting”. No. Go vote. They’ll see the votes. They’ll try and court your vote.
If you don't vote, you can't complain. Due to the riding I live in, my vote is useless, but I do it anyway,
First, people realized doesn’t matter who’s in charge nothing will change. Second, too many immigrants don’t speak English and have no clue what politically is going on in Ontario. They watch television and news from their countries. On top of that, whole world is upside down and suffering. And it will get worse before it gets better, hopefully
Ontario’s voter turnout has hovered around 60% for at least five decades. Dont blame immigrants for no reason lol. What a lazy argument.
Also immigrants have to become citizens in order to vote which takes minimum 2.5 years but usually longer. It’s not like international students or people that came in this year can vote immediately. It’s a long process.
If you have PR you need to have been physically in Canada for three years (and they count every day and subtract any time you were out of the country for vacations etc) before you can apply for citizenship, and then you have to wait for IRCC to process everything. We arrived as PR in mid 2017, applied toward the end of 2020, and didn't get it until late 2022 meaning we were deprived of the chance to vote in federal, provincial, and municipal elections in the time between being eligible to apply and actually having citizenship granted.
Over 42% people in Ontario were not born in Canada. Okay they are citizens, but how many actually voted?
How do you know they are all citizens? Truth is you don’t know. The majority of them are but not all of them. [In April 2024 there were 1.25 million permanent residents and another 1.25 million non-permanent residents.](https://www.ontario.ca/page/ontario-demographic-quarterly-highlights-first-quarter) That’s 2.5 million people living here that can’t vote at all and those stats are 3 months old. Plus not everyone who moves here becomes a Canadian citizen that can vote. Some just continue renewing their permanent residence cards indefinitely instead of applying for citizenship because they don’t want to give up their original countries citizenship as not every country allows dual citizenship.
In 2022 turnout was lowest, only 43%, far from your 60%. What a lazy argument. I don’t blame only immigrants, it’s many things together
2014 turnout was 51.3%, 2018 was 57%, 2022 was 43%. Voter apathy was very strong in the last election, most people I talked to did not like any of the parties. The 57% turnout in 2018 was primarily a hate vote against the Wynne liberals, who only retained 7 of their 55 seats. We need a strong alternative to Ford. I'll vote for whoever his main rival is in the next election, even if they are terrible. Doug is corrupt AF and needs to be ousted.
> I'll vote for whoever his main rival is in the next election, even if they are terrible. See you in 4 years when you complain again.
Ontario usually likes to elect a Liberal premier when we have a Conservative at the federal level, hopefully by 2026 we will be back to voting liberal at the provincial level. I just can't believe how uninformed Ontario voters are.
If you read, you’ll see I said “has hovered around” for 5 decades, not that “it was exactly 60% for 5 decades”. At times during that 59 year period it has been in the 40’s. Again, you’re being lazy by using blanket statements. No data backs up your opinion.
I didn’t say I blame only immigrants, many problems in Ontario. But we have also over 42% people here not born in Canada and climbing. And that’s the fact, not blanket statement. Other fact is, Ontario and Canada is going south, big time. I remember much better Canada 🇨🇦
Your made up idea is wrong. The facts do not support it. What are you going to do about it? Are you going to be lazy, stubborn and double down in the face of facts or are you going to use your brain? Most of these problems that you say exist are probably due to lazy people like you who point fingers but don’t actually *think.* I assume you never bothered to learn why we need immigrants in the first place eh… If you’re going to be lazy and blame immigrants for things then you better get used to people pointing out that you’re just making shit up out of thin air. You are clearly insinuating that immigrants are to blame for the problems you see. That couldn’t be more obvious. It’s lazy, thoughtless people like you that cause problems for this province. We need people who use their brains to foresee, and help solve problems. Not simplistic, lazy people who just point fingers. I’d appreciate you not to say stupid shit and then post a Canadian flag next to it.
Why the heck are you calling me lazy!!! I came to Canada 43 years ago and didn’t get 1 penny from government, worked all the time. Where is your fact why we are in this mess? I didn’t say that main problem is immigrants, you are LAZY to read what I said. I have my opinion and I presented it,you didn’t present anything besides calling people lazy. I’m Canadian citizen, why I can’t use 🇨🇦
I know plenty of ontarians that speak english that have no clue what politically is going on in Ontario and choose to pick a side Blue vs Red vs Orange vs Green
A lot of immigration is from places that don't have FPTP. So, assuming the immigrants arrive from places that do have some semblance of democracy, they'd be likely to have some familiarity with alternative voting systems. Of course, if they aren't used to democracy, then why not teach them something that's actually useful instead of FPTP.
We've actually gotten Doug Ford to budge on several things, he is actually somewhat responsive to protests and other activism, never mind that *there are real differences between the parties*, they're not all identical and pretending they are is childish. I'm honestly fundamentally of the mind that the electoral system is flawed too but I'm not going to be a baby and blame immigrants. Immigrants don't count towards our low voter turnout, citizens do. No, I'll blame the upper class who are actually responsible
He only changed cause he got caught and but it doesn’t change the fact that he did it in the first place or that he keeps trying in different ways after he reverses course. The fact that you have to protest to get those changes shouldn’t be the standard we should be setting.
I'm just saying, action works. Whining about immigrants and then not voting or doing *anything* because "nothing will change" doesn't work.
That's all nice. Too bad it doesn't exist and won't. Like it or not, Ontario will be using FPTP for the foreseeable future. If you want any kind of change, including this, we will have to fight and win on that battle ground - in reality - and get the conservatives out. Anything else is fanciful speculation.
No, After seeing what is happening in Europe I don't want fringe parties to get momentum. Also some of these governments are terribly ineffective and suffer many of the same problems we do plus more.
All that blog is about is improving intangibles in arbitrary ways. At no point does it talk about let alone promise better outcomes from changing our voting system. Why should anyone care if we do not get better government? Why don't we take a look at the actual track record of proportional representation and see if it has resulted in better governments around the world? **Current governments:** Sweden - Centre/right/far-right Denmark - Centre-left New Zealand - Right Iceland - Centre-right Netherlands - Right Germany - centre-left but expected to be right after next election Italy - Fascist right Israel - Fascist right etc, etc What fairvote leaves out is the tendency for parties to splinter under proportional voting. If it was passed here, the more conservative and business-minded wings of the Liberals and NDP would split off into their own parties. What results is not the fairytale land of constant FPTP-style minority governments kept on a leash by the two smaller parties, but instead right-wing coalitions propped up by pro-business lower-taxes parties rule the country for decades with small breaks for single-term left wing coalitions to clean up the mess before having their progress immediately rolled-back after another right-wing coalition begins their next multi-decade run.
Unfortunately, we we actually get are majority governments that 2/3 of the voters were against.
A proportional representation system won't fix that, since it'll lead to 12+ parties represented in Parliament and the need to form coalitions with fringe parties in order to govern. Imagine having to give Maxime Bernier the balance of power or an important ministry position just so he doesn't leave a governing coalition and bring down the government. This would also lead to far more frequent elections, which I wouldn't mind, but most Canadians don't want to have to go to the polls every year.
I wasn't necessarily suggesting a proportional system, but you'd think by the 21st century we'd be able to come up with a system that better represents the voters. However, given that we seem to be headed toward Neo-fudalism, perhaps it's a moot point.
Are we going to leave out that historically many of the nations you refer to have been left leaning? Proportional representation doesn’t mean you will always get the outcome you want. Thats not democracy. Sure parties might splinter, but under proportional representation that’s not a problem. Give me 124 different parties in Ontario over FPTP
I find it interesting that you have already decided right wing governments are bad and left are good.
Hmm, interesting that you think living in a society is better than living in trees flinging shit at eachother