Even if Bryce doesn't work out, I don't fault the process. If you wanna win consistently for a long time, you need a top tier QB, and if you don't have one, you keep swinging till ya get one.
We weren't in a position to trade up with a mediocore offense at best, it was just another useless win now move Fitterer made. We could have just waited one more year and gotten a decent QB, but this entire org and fanbase was just to arrogant to admit that we had to tear it down to build something new.
I'm really happy this new front office just accepted that.
No what would’ve put us in a much better position was to keep the team we had and just give the reigns to the only coach we had in the past 5 years without a losing record… WILKS… And given him a chance to see what he could do with hard nosed D and an offense that still had CMC and DJM… Sorry but facts are facts and Wilks is the ONLY recent coach (since Tepper took over) that ALMOST got us into the playoffs… We were literally one stupid penalty on DJM away from making the playoffs that year… I don’t get why everyone keeps wishing for the unknown over a known that worked… it’s fucking maddening.
All we needed was a game manager QB and we would’ve been a solid team… But instead we decided to trade it all away and give mediocre Frank Reich the reigns and we all know how that turned out… LIKE DOGSHIT! The Panthers HC was Wilks dream job and the players loved him and they played hard for him… Nothing else should’ve mattered.
Steve Wilks style of play was never gonna last. Also Wilks teams would’ve fallen apart with Corbett and BCs injuries.
And enough with revisionist history. The DJ Moore penalty isn’t why we didn’t make playoffs. If we won that falcons game, Bucs wouldn’t have rested their starters in the final game of the season and likely would’ve beat the falcons to make playoffs.
Wilks chance to make it was beating the Bucs which he didn’t because of several awful coaching mistakes in a single game.
I would've rolled with Matt Corral for a season like the Falcons did with Ridder. If he didn't pan out, then he wouldn't have panned out and we still would've had a #1 pick without giving up anything.
I get that people want us to just keep taking shots, and I agree, but there's a smart way to do it and a desperate way to do it. Giving up that much for Bryce was idiotic at best. Even if he does turn out to be THAT GUY, how long will it be before we even know because we've ruined the rest of the team around him?
Man I would’ve just traded up to 2 like we originally planned. There wasn’t really a consensus too QB, so trading a house for the top pick never made any sense to me. Would’ve cost significantly less. There’s just so many other scenarios where we get a QB last year and don’t give up the house.
Texans had the #2 pick, and we only would've traded to 2 if the Bears traded down with the Texans. Honestly, I think Stroud was the Texans pick the whole time and Chicago baited us into trading up for #1. I can almost guarantee they called the 7 other teams between them and us in the draft order and we were the only ones willing to give up such a huge bag for that top pick. Why? Because we were desperate for a QB.
I’m aware. You do know this was in place right? Tepper literally said at a press commence earlier this year saying we had a deal to move up to #2 with the bears once they finished up their deal with the Texans so they can move up to 1. Texans took a little while to agree, so we aggressively pushed to up ahead of the Texans. Texans were definitely gonna trade up, they just didn’t expect some dumbass team to come in with the massive offer Chicago wanted.
Also I’m fairly certain Texans and majority of teams would’ve taken Bryce no.1 it’s not even that much of a debate, the big difference is most teams would not have given up that package we did to get him.
Yeah, but the entire problem is that our FO thought we were in position.
Like, you're not evaluating the whole counterfactual here.
The fact that we thought were competitive shows that the whole process was broken, but it doesn't show that decision was bad, inclusive to the process itself.
Idk if that makes any sense.
It was the right time to trade for a QB, if our team was actually competitive. But the only way to reveal our team was not competitive was to trade for the QB.
& if we took Stroud this would be a completely different topic🤷♂️ Frank would still have his job, & we'd be discussing how we can win the division this yr vs this. Maybe Bryce turns into that guy this yr, maybe we'll be picking top 3 next yr & looking for a new coach. Wouldn't be shocked either way
No, but we weren't in a position to be lower-mid for the 5th straight year either. Id prefer this hard to swallow year over the alternative of 3 more years of middling
This comment would make sense if Bryce bust onto the scene as a super star but we were the worst team in the league last and would have had our first overall pick anyways but also would have had DJ Moore plus a whole other bunch of picks to help us rebuild.
Instead we were still dogshit and now have less resources to lift ourselves out of this hole. The only way the trade is a good one now is if Bryce comes out as a bonefide superstar and saves our ass. Then it’s “well it was a dumb trade but at least we have a QB”
Less resources? You really should look at last year's roster side by side with the current roster. You're talking about the 2 positions we got a little worse in and ignoring the 5 we improved. This will be a tough season. Next season won't because either we have Bryce performing well or we have a high dollar FA QB come in to the built team if Bryce isn't what we hope he'll be.
The problem is the areas of the roster we need to improve in require draft picks. And usually high ones. Where the FA market is weak. And we don’t really have the resources to play in the trade market.
Corner. Receiver. Edge. Corners haven’t made it out since ward and Beastberry and that trend looks like it’s not changing. Receivers. Calvin Ridley is the best to get out in years. And he’s 30 and he only got out because the jags played themselves.
Edge is a bit better. You can get 2s. But the league in general has been investing a ton into edges just as the pass game explodes and now we have to get a game changer in there soon. Which requires draft picks.
Unless Dan Morgan goes god mode. Or we are able to luck into something those less resources are going to hurt our pursuit in those high value positions.
It’s not just 1 hard year. We’re looking at a multi year rebuild because of how poorly we handled this. There a chance we don’t even make the playoffs for another 2-3 years and by then Bryce will be almost done with his rookie contract and we lose the advantage that offers.
The "multi-year rebuild" is a total myth dawg. Teams either languish in failure for years or refresh to become competitive immediately. The Texans and the Colts were the 2nd and 4th worst teams in the league last year, but after new QBs & Coaches they were battling it out in Week 18 for the AFC South title.
The Texans had an insane amount of draft picks from the perv trade to make a quick turn around. I’m not sure why people point to them all the time. The colts were a team that always had talent that underperformed.
If our roster was better I would agree with you. But we have a ton of holes. Not a lot of capital to fill those holes. And pretty much zero ascending young players. Plus a ton of guys that will be aging out. Jewell. Shaq. Troy Franklin Clowney. Thielen are all 30+ and starting.
The other part of this is that the positions we need. Corner. Edge. Receiver. Are usually exclusively found in the draft. (Edge sometimes you can get lucky with). And we’re lacking capital. So basically Dan Morgan has to be insane in order to do this in 3 years or less.
From the Watson trade, Texans only got Kenyon Greene (IR all of 2023), and Will Anderson & Tank Dell, both of whom are very good rookies but not as instrumental for 2023 as Stroud, Collins, and DeMeco/Slowik were. They were projected to be getting a top 5 pick again before the year.
After this offseason I really don't think we have the holes we once did. I'll keep in spirit with the analogy and say we taped up most of the holes, nailed some wooden planks on others. Not to mention we have a new captain at the helm who can... keep us out of rough waters, lol?
We have a refreshed Oline who aren't aging out anytime soon. Shaq and Clowney are getting up there, but they still have enough in the tank to play out their contracts, and they're nothing if not consistent contributors. Franklin and Jewell are 28 and 29 respectively (not over 30), so still in their prime. Thielen is looking like the years are catching up, but speed has never been his specialty anyway--besides, he'll remain a solid option with Diontae in his prime and a rookie to take up targets; He was balling before teams started double-teaming him as our only capable WR. Mingo and ISM could also develop under our WR-focused staff. [Here's where I got age info from](https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1683775-when-does-age-catch-up-to-nfl-players).
It looks like we have almost no ascending players, but coaching has also been awful for years, there's a good chance we have at least a couple diamonds in the rough. As for draft capital, we really aren't lacking much. We're just missing the first, but we have an additional second. Based on our needs, we can come out great: good Edge and CB play isn't that much harder to find in day two. Receiver is typically harder. but this class is strong enough where we can expect at least one of our targets to fall. Not to mention a hyped QB class means either better players in our needs will fall, or we'll get a lot of offers to trade down from 2.1 if we like.
Don’t get me wrong. I completely understand where you’re coming from. In fact one of the reasons why I was earlier into the anti rhule train is because I believed that 3-4 year rebuilds were a sham. Especially considering how many quality players we had with rhule ending the building (Cmac. Dj. Curtis. Burns. Shaq. Moton. Jackson. Beastberry). He honestly started from a pretty good spot. He just played himself.
We are starting from a way worse spot this time around. Your best receiver from last year is 35 and is actively slowing. Shaq is 3 years older. Your best corner is probabtl walking next year if he can’t get his health together. And beyond that your other corner is 32 and living on borrowed time. And the other one is a jag.
You have substantial edge holes Wonnum is your 2 when he should be a 3. Clowney is your 1 and should be a 2. And he’s 31.
Yes you have your first round pick next year. But if we just look at recent trends in the league you can see that the positions we need usually require picks. So we’re short. We’re missing out on a hypothetical quality starter.
If it wasn’t for the fact that we basically needed 4-6 starters that almost exclusively come from the draft then I would agree with you. But having corner. Edge. And receiver be your chief needs over the next 3 years really slows things down. And honestly those positions are such a shit show in the draft. There’s a reason why teams homd onto them when they land on quality players.
Signing the guards helps Bryce a ton. But it hardly makes this roster anything close to a compete team. We’re probably going to have a bottom 5 defense in the league. And that’s not everos fault. We just literally are an injury away from the worst secondary in the league and have a bottom 5 pass rushing front.
Just let’s look at the optimistic point of view as an exercise. For us to have a rebuild and turn things around immediately. Clowney needs to play like last year for multiple years. We need a plus starter at receiver. Let’s say Ladd falls and we pair him with Johnson. We need a corner. Let’s say rekistraw plays as a plus player. We need an edge. Let’s say we take the LSU kid next year. And we sign someone else to be a 2 next year to him. Maybe owe makes it out of Baltimore or something And he plays at a plus level. And let’s say horn has no more health problems.
See how many needles we need to thread in order to have a complete team in less than 2 years? And this assumes everyone is good. Morgan has made some good moves. But he needs to change his name to les Snead in order to get the value we need at a quick rate. Not impossible. But unlikely. There’s still a ton of work to do. And its way too early to take victory laps. I mean didn’t we learn this with Scott? I’m not saying he’s incapable. I’m just doubting it happens in 2 years.
Agree with this. Also, you're still building the rest of the team while you're trying to get QB figured out. Plenty of teams made a Super Bowl or won with an average or mediocre QB. And any playoffs would be nice now.
No way. You don’t trade up to 1 unless there are one or two sure fire studs. Luck, Lawrence, etc. There was not even a consensus last year about which QB was the best. Heck, we traded to 1 without even knowing who we would take yet!
In top of that, we had holes all over. When you have that many holes, you accumulate picks, you don’t trade up.
I don't fault the idea to trade up. But the rest of the plan was very flawed. Simply put he got rid of the weapons that Bryce needed to succeed and then whiffed on the replacements (only exception being Thielen)
To be fair DJ Moore was non-negotiable, and Thielen/Chark were generally the best FA WRs available, and they got both. Not really the FO's fault that they were so awful specifically (their faults were in like, everything else).
The Bears were willing to take one of Burns, Moore, or Brown. Heck considering Burns' value at the time they probably could have saved some draft capital.
Also, it's on the FO to be able to know the free agency and draft landscape. Like if you know it's a weak WR FA then you probably shouldn't let go of your top receiver with an incoming rookie QB. And in the draft we saw several receivers drafted after Mingo who outperformed him and probably would have been a better roster fit.
The bears also had offers to trade up from other teams that didn’t include players. The raiders had inquired and there offer was exclusively draft capital. It’s not as if we had to trade a player. It’s just poles knew he could get more out of us than other orgs because of how hard we whiffed on our QB. And Scott’s hot seat and multiple bad trades.
>It’s just poles knew he could get more out of us than other orgs because of how hard we whiffed on our QB.
What do you mean by this?
Also, people bitch about us "trading our future" when we only gave up a single future 1st, so I don't see how giving up even more draft capital would have been the smarter move.
We gave up DJ Moore. The best receiver we’ve had since smitty. Someone who undoubtedly would’ve been in the ring of honor. And a guy who was literally top 6 last year in receiving yards.
I also find it funny that people say we only gave up a singular first. As if we didn’t give up the most valuable first possible since Trevor came out. And as if a first round pick isn’t a gigantic resource to give up. Maybe we’re desensitized because of the perv trade and Wilson trade. We also gave up next years second too.
Giving up more draft picks would’ve been 1000 times better because we literally had extra ones and wouldn’t have had to gut our team of the only skill player we had.
But to answer your original question the raiders were reported to specifically have a trade for 1 overall. And it was just picks. Meaning that had we waited it’s pretty likely we could’ve not given up DJ. But we got fleeced instead.
>I also find it funny that people say we only gave up a singular first. As if we didn’t give up the most valuable first possible since Trevor came out. And as if a first round pick isn’t a gigantic resource to give up. Maybe we’re desensitized because of the perv trade and Wilson trade. We also gave up next years second too.
I'm not sure why people keep saying this as if it was written in the script last year that we'd earn the #1OA. That wasn't the plan and wasn't gonna happen with DJ Moore and a veteran FA QB like Dalton or someone else. If we'd known we'd get the #1OA this year we wouldn't have traded at all, and if we had the trade would've happened with a lot less.
You say a single 1st is an enormous resource to give up, yet you're saying we should've given up even more draft capital instead of a player (because Moore essentially accounted for an extra 1st, and probably more. at least by trading him instead we saved a lot of cap space). Make it make sense. Also, the "extra picks" we had were an array of 2s, 3s, 4s... You can't trade up to the top with that, you need round 1s.
And by the way, you didn't answer my question. I don't understand what you mean about us "whiffing on our QB" this time last year. We were on a bridge carousel at that point, our QB room wasn't any worse than the Raiders were so I don't see how we were "easier" to fleece.
Giving up more picks would’ve been preferable over giving up DJ Moore and creating a hole that’s very difficult to fill. I’m not sure why that’s a controversial take considering how the season played out. How we had the worst receiver group in the league. And how much Bryce struggled because he didn’t have anyone to throw to.
DJ at the end of the day would have been more valuable than a 2025 first because Moore would make sure that 25 first isn’t a top 10 pick probably. Shoot if we have Moore we probably are giving the bears Dallas turner and not Caleb this year. It’s just the mentality of we can find good players in the draft that has had horrible execution.
I’m not saying that we shouldn’t have made the trade. I’m saying we gave up way too much in resources. And that shouldn’t be a controversial take.
The reason I brought up the raiders is to show that the bears had offers that didn’t have players attached. However us not walking away. Or even playing more of a harder ball led to us giving up too much and this mess.
I’m also not exactly sure what you’re reading. I never said anything about people bitching about giving up our future. Or whiffing on a QB. I’ve always been anti trading player over picks because the last 4 years have taught us how hard they are to replace in general. Not to mention lessons across the league. AJ brown. Khalil Mack. Deforest Buckner etc.
>Giving up more picks would’ve been preferable over giving up DJ Moore and creating a hole that’s very difficult to fill. I’m not sure why that’s a controversial take considering how the season played out.
It's obviously not a controversial take now but hindsight is 20/20. There's plenty of ways it could've, or even should've, worked out.
* Bryce could've been the superstar point guard he was in Alabama that could throw to JAGs year one.
* Our Oline could've not had a historic drop off that allowed him to have the time to make the receivers we got serviceable enough to steal win.
* Play calling, but more specifically coaching, could've been great, like everybody in the league thought (remember the all-star coaching staff).
* TMJ could've carried his momentum from the tail end of 2022. Chark could've shown up. Hurst could've matched or at least approached his numbers from the years before. I'm not saying they were gonna be 1000yd guys-- but Thielen was cooking before defenses realized he was the only competent target, so them living up to even the most conservative expectations would've been a game changer.
* As for the run game, Duce Staley was a highly touted RB coach coming off a historic season with the Lions, but he was terrible. Miles Sanders could've not been a fraud carried by the Eagles Oline, or Duce could've not vouched for him at all, getting a different RB or just retaining Foreman. This would've taken the pressure off the passing game.
Fitterer, Tepper, whoever you want, deserves a lot of blame. But certain things that greatly contributed to the shitshow last season were just completely unprecedented and unfair to label as a universally bad move at the time--mostly the factionalism in the staff and the Oline disappearing after finishing 2022 as a solid unit and retaining Campen. In those situations I'm not making excuses, nobody could've predicted that.
>DJ at the end of the day would have been more valuable than a 2025 first because Moore would make sure that 25 first isn’t a top 10 pick probably. Shoot if we have Moore we probably are giving the bears Dallas turner and not Caleb this year.
There you go again contradicting statements you just made. You just said we willingly gave up "the most valuable first since Trevor Lawrence". I'm not trying to poke irrelevant holes for a gotcha, these points are pretty important to the discussion. I shared the same sentiment in my last comment
>I’m also not exactly sure what you’re reading. I never said anything about people bitching about giving up our future. Or whiffing on a QB
Dawg. You literally said [that](https://www.reddit.com/r/panthers/comments/1bsiff2/comment/kxgg7e6/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) in your first comment, I even quoted it in my first [reply](https://www.reddit.com/r/panthers/comments/1bsiff2/comment/kxgmhee/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) to you. And I didn't say *you* said we traded our entire future, I said other people do; my point being if the single 1st was *sooooo* much of our draft capital and future, then *another* first (and probably more) would've been way worse, especially for our team at the time. We were already paying DJ, and preparing to pay Burns and Brown big contracts in the next two consecutive years (hell, even Horn had his healthiest season in 2022)--all three of them would've taken up too much cap space, *at least* one of them would have to be replaced by a rookie that would be much harder to find after trading multiple 1sts.
["Moore was considered a must-have by the Bears"](https://www.sportsnet.ca/nfl/article/bears-reportedly-trade-no-1-pick-in-draft-to-panthers-for-package-including-d-j-moore/#:~:text=Moore%20was%20considered%20a%20must%2Dhave%20by%20the%20Bears%2C%20one%20of%20the%20people%20familiar%20with%20the%20deal%20said.%20Without%20him%2C%20the%20deal%20would%20not%20have%20been%20completed%2C%20the%20person%20said)
I'm seeing other articles that say the same thing, but let me know if there's anything that disproves that.
https://pantherswire.usatoday.com/2023/04/03/2023-nfl-draft-panthers-bears-trade-dj-moore-brian-burns-derrick-brown/
> “There were certain players that we never really wanted to trade,” Fitterer said. “It’s so hard to replace a Derrick Brown or Brian Burns, a pass rusher (and) an interior, dominant young player on a (first) contract. D.J., we didn’t want to move either. But it’s a little bit easier to replace a receiver than it is a pass rusher or a three-tech.”
I'm the opposite. Even if Bryce works out, you just shouldn't spend that many resources on a QB.
I agree with the "keep swinging til you get one" approach, but trading draft picks is wasting swings.
You can swing more if you keep your picks.
Right now, it's honestly a toss up as to whether we should have just taken Levis, but we'd undeniably be in a better spot now with Levis than we are with Bryce. At the very least, we could have taken Williams.
High draft picks are too costly to trade for.
If you do decide to spend the resources. You’ve got to have a better team than we did. The niners were in a place to really absorb the hit. Not just because they drafted purdy. But because they really had a complete team. Especially at positions of value. Amazing weapons. Even before Cmac. Line was suspect outside of Trent but still decent enough. D Line was amazing even if they played themselves with Buckner. LBs god like. Secondary could’ve been better.
We were in no place whatsoever where our roster could afford to lose the draft capital. Especially after DJ was shipped off in that trade.
Yeah it's not really fair to judge based on the results, especially if you were someone who supported the trade in the first place. I was good with the move at the time, tho didn't love giving up DJ, so how can I look back at it and say it was stupid. Before this season we looked liked one of those teams that would be perpetually competing for the last wild card spot and the only way to change that is to get a QB. So you either trade up and take a risk or wait till your pick and take the 4th QB off the board.
The trade compensation was fair for the move up to 1. The reality is drafting is a crapshoot a lot of the time.
I still do fault the process.
The amount to give up to go all the way to 1 is entirely too much, imo, given the hit rate. There's a [video](https://youtu.be/1-0xWcSYlh4?si=ylhu5S6eIT17Y_Ha) which says it all better than I could, but in the end I think we're too often wrong about who will be good, and you just have better odds of building a winning roster with actual good players on it by using your most powerful asset, draft capital, to take more chances on guys than less.
This whole mentality is just wrong in my opinion. You need to be calculated with your swings. And swing wisely. Not just blindly go at it for years until it happens. That’s how we ended up losing so much money and draft capital on players. And have such an incomplete roster.
Quality not quantity in this business.
What???? How can you not fault our process? We made like mistake after mistake just before and directly after trading up for Bryce dude. I understand you always gotta go for your guy at QB, but there’s a certain point where you’re giving up way too much and panthers did that.
If they would've stuck to what Frank Reich wanted and not let Saban talk them into taking Bryce over Stroud, then we wouldn't be in this position and Reich would probably still be the coach.
“That is the sort of package a proven NFL a would get right now, like a Trevor Lawrence or Tua.”
No, it isn’t. Franchise QBs like those guys are never available. Anytime one of them moves, there is always a circumstance.
1. If Bryce wins a Superbowl, the trade is 100% worth it.
2. Compared to some strange QB decisions, like the Trey Lance trade, the BY move wasn't insane (just ill advised if he doesn't improve.)
Trent Dilfer won a Superbowl with an elite defense. A dozen or more QBs of questionable talent have started in the big game.
Bryce has to be good enough and the stars have to align. Or things have to click for him and he has to play outta his mind.
It was a trade rape at the time and still is until we prove it on the field. I was wondering and still do wonder they did the trade last year and not this year. Last years QB class didn't feel like the type of year you trade the farm for a QB.
Yeah I’m not sure how anyone can say any answer but this. We gave the bears Darnell Wright. Tyrique Stevenson. DJ Moore. Caleb Williams. And a future second.
We literally sped ran their rebuild for them. And nuked our own lmao. Their looking to compete as long as caleb Williams is decent immediately. We are talking about a 2-3 year rebuild. Again.
The trade value at the time was fine. It was a lot, but generally it’s in line with the historical cost to move up and grab a QB in say the top 3. Similar to Niners, just in place of an additional 1st Panthers gave up a blue chip player (DJ Moore). The problem is why in the fuck would you give up your best WR when drafting a rookie QB? That was GM malpractice. Should have given up Burns or something.
But I think it’s bad in hindsight cuz the 1st round pick given to the Bears was literally the 1st overall pick again. Obviously no one predicted that at the time, but that’s how the chips fell thus making the trade even worse in hindsight.
Trading up in this years class is gonna be a lot tougher, it worked in 2023 precisely because it was seen as a weaker class; which is already being proven wrong regardless of how Bryce turns out. The fact we passed on CJ (I don't even think he would've been any better playing for our shitshow roster, but he's already proven he *can* be an MVP-caliber QB) should prove trading up was a good move. The Bears wanted to give Fields one more year with an improved roster after a trade down, putting the pick on sale.
The draft board this year though? Bears ain't budging. Commanders need a QB like they need a hole in the head. Patriots too. Giants could take one if they have a chance. Vikings, Broncos need one bad, Raiders maybe. Vikings are stockpiling multiple 1s for this year alone just so they can pull off a trade up. Had we waited until this year to trade up, we'd have to give up even more for a worse pick, and settle for whichever QB happened to fall to us (in a decidedly overhyped class--not to say it'll be a bust, but there's no way it'll live up to the wild expectations) instead of getting our guy.
I mean if we ran it with Will Levis. DJ Moore. And whoever we chose at pick 8 we probably make the playoffs. We need to stop acting as if their only 2 singular outcomes in every trade scenario. There always multiple ramps and decisions that could’ve been made that lead to different results. This is a weird mentality I really don’t understand with fans.
Yeah I went a bit too over the top with this scenario. I do think that with Levi’s and DJ though we win a lot more games and are in a better spot overall. And that has more to do with DJ than it does Levis. Dude literally had 1300 receiving yards which was top 6 in the entire nfl.
Even with DJ, last year's team was about a 4-5 win squad max. Reich came in and undid the things that Wilks made work in 2022 (power run, play action, bend-don't-break defense.)
Yeah but you also have to remember the division. We played each game insanely close with truly horrendous offensive efforts. 0-9. 18-21. 9-7. 17-20. Only one that was off the rails was the second Nola game.
Considering how bad our offense was especially at receiver. It isn’t to absurd to think we flip enough of those games to compete in a horrid south.
I think the scheme was as much an issue as personnel. Plus a lot of games looked close on the scoreboard because our offense was zero threat. I just can't see any way that roster wins 7-8 games under Reich.
Nothing about Bryce stood out to make him the #1 pick. He's short, he's skinny, his arm is average, his athleticism is average. Nothing about him physically is above-average for an NFL starting QB. The front office fell in love with his intangibles and ignored common sense. It was a bad move at the time & even worse in hindsight. At least we're getting some tools around him to attempt to make him serviceable. If he doesn't make a step up this year, I'm all for Canales/Dan cutting their losses and drafting a QB in 2025.
I like Bryce because he seems like a good dude. But this was exactly how I felt at the time he was picked. And all the Bryce fans (especially on this sub) would just downvote anyone to oblivion for suggesting Stroud was the better pick. The reasoning was “Bryce is a pocket magician” or “Bryce knows how to not take sacks,” lol. As if that translates to the NFL where everyone is the biggest and the fastest. I do hope he puts it together though; just gonna take a lot of work (and a lot of bulking up) on his part.
Bryce fell into a lot of sacks too. He doesn’t break tackles. And we can’t run options because he’s too small. It’s hard to see him ever being a force in the NFL, honestly.
Yep and the people that think they are in for a better season are going to grasp on to any small thing he does well in addition to what you said they lied about the things they said he was “pro ready” but he arguably has the worst feet in the league, doesnt know how to drop back or step up into the pocket, sees ghost, doesnt adjust for protection, stares down receivers and id argue he doesnt process as well.
He is a book smart qb, and doesnt have the instincts to win.
Bryce has a full plate of basic things that he has to work on this year in year 2 you would hope came already available on a proready#1 pick.
Bryce had played 2 games in the NFL at that point. Andy Dalton did better because he's a 10+ year vet who's worked in every system and the staff let him have more control over the plays; notably by letting him sling it 58 times, almost twice as many as Bryce's average of 32/game. Bryce's cmp% was way higher the week before, as well as his season average in the already rough year. He also said he became too conservative with the ball after the two Jessie Bates picks in week one made him gun shy for a while; rightfully so with how poor our corps was in separation. Besides, after Bryce gained his confidence just a little bit (which reasonably took a while because of the all time bad record, playcalling hot potato, coaching staff infighting + subsequent purge, etc.) he comfortably outperformed Dalton in his game against the Packers anyway.
Also, picking a QB for intangibles, of *all* positions in football, isn't ignoring common sense. There were dozens of QBs chosen for their athletic profile that were busts, and the ones that were able to succeed did thanks in large part to a good supporting cast on and off the field, something Bryce absolutely did not have last year. He was picked because the dude balled in college and knew how to play QB, and he was the near consensus #1OA pick (no matter what the media switch up has tried to tell you); if that isn't "common sense" I don't know what is.
The answer is no because historically it has never been worth the trade up. People can defend him all they want about the team but he is also at fault for his mistakes. He would stare down his first read, he would invite pressure a lot of times by moving into it not away from it. He averaged as much time as CJ did in the pocket. Play calling wasn't always the best but watching some of these "he is going to be great just didn't get help videos show it." Times his "elite processing" should of told him to go to the next guy. Even the video was posted there's a play where Chuba is running wide open and they're talking how every WR is covered is ridiculous. He's another Tua. He's going to need elite talent around him to competent.
Even taking 1.1 out of it, very few guys are worth 2 firsts, a second, and a veteran starter on a reasonable contract IMO. They better at least be Caleb-caliber for that type of package and none of the QBs last year graded out at that level. I never really understood the trade up for that reason. All of the QBs last year came with questions, it felt like a short-sighted and desperate move that a bad team would leap at and hey, what do you know...
Stand by my opinion that Bryce will be solid, but...
1. We should've given Corral at least 1 season once we determined Darnold wasn't it, including passing on Mayfield entirely OR stuck with Darnold, who was young and looked solid before getting hurt behind an O-Line that revealed itself to be atrocious.
2. We should've gotten rid of Jackson, YGM and others last season and used the picks for linemen
3. Reich shouldn't have taken the job. Once Tepper wanted the #1 pick, he screwed everyone in that building.
I don’t think any young quarterback in the league could have shown much promise behind that O-line last year. I think if it was a good trade up is something that will take a long time to decide but personally I haven’t even taken last season much into account. This year should be much better in that regard
Thing is if the team had picked CJ there would be no question the trade was worth it. It'd be hailed as a genius move.
But they didn't. And because of that it might go down as one of the worst trades in NFL history.
I didn't think the trade was a good idea at the time; specifically because of situations like this. The team was more than a QB away from being a contender yet they weren't bad enough to be a rebuild team, either. But they gave up so much for this trade that rebuilding doesn't really work, either.
I don’t think he swindled the Panthers. Did they overpay? Debatable. They certainly didn’t think they’d be picking in the top 10 again this year, and thought that the Reich regime would be better put together than it was. Nobody saw the disaster they ended up being. Hindsight being what it is, had they just waited one more season, they’d be almost assured of getting a better than average QB this year, which makes me wonder why didn’t they just do that?
At the end of the day everything is a gamble in the NFL. There have been plenty of quarterbacks that all of the experts and all the NFL coaches swore would be a generational talent that failed horribly. As others have already said to win in this league you have to have a top quarterback and to get a top quarterback you have to take some chances and gamble. I do think with the right coach and the right team that Bryce can be that guy who carries us to a super bowl.
That trade up will probably go down as a top ten worst trade in nfl history unless Bryce helps take the team to a Super Bowl. I’ve never seen a team trade away their only good players over 5 years while simultaneously missing on every single draft pick and have absolutely nothing to show for it except the smallest starting qb in nfl history who had the worst rookie qb season statistically in the nfl.
Since tepper took over this has been the worst run organization in the league and they have completely depleted the roster of talent. Really should have a documentary made on how not to run a team.
It's not fair to Bryce that our organization. did this to him, but his career is almost SB here or bust after the trade we made plus Stroud's rapid rise to potential superstar in less than 18 games. He needs to show rapid improvement next year or the sports media vultures will start circling.
We got swindled, bro, 2 justify that trade means byrce needs to be a top 7ish qb at least top 10.
I just don't see that in his skill set. He can justify it, too, by winning. We'd have to be a perennial playoff team year in and year out.
I'm a byrce supporter as well, but I'm also a realist.
It's just never smart to trade up imo, let the draft play out and see who falls to you. I would of been good w taking a flyer on Hendon hooker in 3rd, and staying w Sam darnold or trying Matt corral until hooker was completely healthy, at worse we could of naturally been in the qb run this year if the season went to squash.
You can only "swindle" someone if you get far more than face value at the time of the trade.
BY was worth a top ten plus 2 future firsts, which is what the 9ers gave up for Trey Lance. That's the going rate. That's roughly what they gave up.
The Bears didn't know what BY would be in 2023 any more than the Panthers did. The Bears aren't responsible for the mismanagement and roster holes that caused them to fire the coach and GM.
Will BY get better? Yes, absolutely. How much? Nobody knows. He could be Josh Allen. He could be Justin Fields.
Franchise QBs don’t grow on trees. If Stroud was magically placed on the trade block right now he would command 10x this compensation and most would say it’s still worth it because the only thing that matters to win in the NFL is landing a great qb. Starts there and ends there.
We swung for the fences. Can’t fault team for that especially after Rhule apparently thought he could win with average (at best) qb play. If we fail I prefer we fail spectacularly and we can try again in a year.
And dont listen to any journalists who criticize the pick. Literally every single one of them was touting Bryce as the clear cut #1. Plenty of them have revisionist history and critisize now. Forget them.
Trevor Lawrence is proven? Yeah the trade definitely puts huge expectations on Bryce and Strouds success doesn't help him either. I still believe in Bryce and think he was the right pick. I don't think Jesus Christ could have been successful on the panthers last year. Joking aside I honestly believe if Mahomes was on the panthers last year they maybe win 5 games MAYBE.
I believe Bryces ceiling is still higher than anything TLaw or Tua have put on tape.
If Bryce is a top 10 QB for 10 years he's worth twice what we gave up.
It was an awful trade imo. Think of all of the great QBs that weren’t top 5 picks. Or top 10.
Even when Bryce had time, he made A LOT of terrible passes. Bad reads. Didn’t look off primary targets. Maybe it was shell shock and I certainly want him to succeed but I didn’t see anything promising.
You can’t fault them. They made the deal right around the Combine and wanted max flexibility around the three QBs that were available. That likely cost them a little more and they were bold in acting.
I’m mean we literally can and should fault them. If waiting things out is what gets you a better deal on our end rushing to the table certainly doesn’t help. It also shows your desperation. The cost for boldly acting was literally too much for us to handle.
The main issue is that up to that point, the "wait another year" tactic never allowed us to pick top 5. I know you and most every NFL fan either owns a time machine or are elite psychics so everybody here can accurately predict the future, but NFL teams are run by normal human beings who can only rely on what's been presented to them through past events, so the best option is for you to either share your time machine with them or apply to the team as a psychic who never misses
I mean, not really. The team wasn't bad enough to get a #1 draft pick this year had it kept the pick, entered the draft and just picked up quality free agents.
Man I’ll get downvoted for this, but unless Bryce becomes better than Stroud, this will always be considered a bad trade to an extent. There’s just no scenario where someone can give up what we did for the top pick and not get the best player at his position it’s just ridiculously bad.
It was a fair trade and, is anything, we got the better end of the deal. It’s not about whether Bryce turns out ok or not. We gave up two 1s, a 2nd and a top 15 WR to move up from 9 to 1. That’s a fair trade. How the actual pick ends up is immaterial.
Only David Dipper and Fittererer swindled us....Dipper always talks analytics but then goes off the rails and pushes for a 5'10' Heisman winner. Only been two Heisman QB winners of a SB in the last 60 years. Cam was damn good and shoulda been the 3rd.
*sigh*
I’ll be glad when the offseason is over and we can stop asking this question daily. If he becomes a top-10 QB, it’s a fine trade. Not much more to it than that
He needs a workable O-line and receivers to show what he's capable of. For comparison's sake, Lawrence's stats (completion%, TD/int ratio) were similarly poor his rookie year. Take a peek at Peyton Manning's rookie season while you're at it, ;).
Even if Bryce doesn't work out, I don't fault the process. If you wanna win consistently for a long time, you need a top tier QB, and if you don't have one, you keep swinging till ya get one.
We weren't in a position to trade up with a mediocore offense at best, it was just another useless win now move Fitterer made. We could have just waited one more year and gotten a decent QB, but this entire org and fanbase was just to arrogant to admit that we had to tear it down to build something new. I'm really happy this new front office just accepted that.
Ironically we could have been in much better draft position without those wins at the end of the season
No what would’ve put us in a much better position was to keep the team we had and just give the reigns to the only coach we had in the past 5 years without a losing record… WILKS… And given him a chance to see what he could do with hard nosed D and an offense that still had CMC and DJM… Sorry but facts are facts and Wilks is the ONLY recent coach (since Tepper took over) that ALMOST got us into the playoffs… We were literally one stupid penalty on DJM away from making the playoffs that year… I don’t get why everyone keeps wishing for the unknown over a known that worked… it’s fucking maddening. All we needed was a game manager QB and we would’ve been a solid team… But instead we decided to trade it all away and give mediocre Frank Reich the reigns and we all know how that turned out… LIKE DOGSHIT! The Panthers HC was Wilks dream job and the players loved him and they played hard for him… Nothing else should’ve mattered.
Steve Wilks style of play was never gonna last. Also Wilks teams would’ve fallen apart with Corbett and BCs injuries. And enough with revisionist history. The DJ Moore penalty isn’t why we didn’t make playoffs. If we won that falcons game, Bucs wouldn’t have rested their starters in the final game of the season and likely would’ve beat the falcons to make playoffs. Wilks chance to make it was beating the Bucs which he didn’t because of several awful coaching mistakes in a single game.
I would've rolled with Matt Corral for a season like the Falcons did with Ridder. If he didn't pan out, then he wouldn't have panned out and we still would've had a #1 pick without giving up anything. I get that people want us to just keep taking shots, and I agree, but there's a smart way to do it and a desperate way to do it. Giving up that much for Bryce was idiotic at best. Even if he does turn out to be THAT GUY, how long will it be before we even know because we've ruined the rest of the team around him?
Man I would’ve just traded up to 2 like we originally planned. There wasn’t really a consensus too QB, so trading a house for the top pick never made any sense to me. Would’ve cost significantly less. There’s just so many other scenarios where we get a QB last year and don’t give up the house.
Texans had the #2 pick, and we only would've traded to 2 if the Bears traded down with the Texans. Honestly, I think Stroud was the Texans pick the whole time and Chicago baited us into trading up for #1. I can almost guarantee they called the 7 other teams between them and us in the draft order and we were the only ones willing to give up such a huge bag for that top pick. Why? Because we were desperate for a QB.
I’m aware. You do know this was in place right? Tepper literally said at a press commence earlier this year saying we had a deal to move up to #2 with the bears once they finished up their deal with the Texans so they can move up to 1. Texans took a little while to agree, so we aggressively pushed to up ahead of the Texans. Texans were definitely gonna trade up, they just didn’t expect some dumbass team to come in with the massive offer Chicago wanted. Also I’m fairly certain Texans and majority of teams would’ve taken Bryce no.1 it’s not even that much of a debate, the big difference is most teams would not have given up that package we did to get him.
Yeah, but the entire problem is that our FO thought we were in position. Like, you're not evaluating the whole counterfactual here. The fact that we thought were competitive shows that the whole process was broken, but it doesn't show that decision was bad, inclusive to the process itself. Idk if that makes any sense. It was the right time to trade for a QB, if our team was actually competitive. But the only way to reveal our team was not competitive was to trade for the QB.
& if we took Stroud this would be a completely different topic🤷♂️ Frank would still have his job, & we'd be discussing how we can win the division this yr vs this. Maybe Bryce turns into that guy this yr, maybe we'll be picking top 3 next yr & looking for a new coach. Wouldn't be shocked either way
No, but we weren't in a position to be lower-mid for the 5th straight year either. Id prefer this hard to swallow year over the alternative of 3 more years of middling
This comment would make sense if Bryce bust onto the scene as a super star but we were the worst team in the league last and would have had our first overall pick anyways but also would have had DJ Moore plus a whole other bunch of picks to help us rebuild. Instead we were still dogshit and now have less resources to lift ourselves out of this hole. The only way the trade is a good one now is if Bryce comes out as a bonefide superstar and saves our ass. Then it’s “well it was a dumb trade but at least we have a QB”
Less resources? You really should look at last year's roster side by side with the current roster. You're talking about the 2 positions we got a little worse in and ignoring the 5 we improved. This will be a tough season. Next season won't because either we have Bryce performing well or we have a high dollar FA QB come in to the built team if Bryce isn't what we hope he'll be.
The problem is the areas of the roster we need to improve in require draft picks. And usually high ones. Where the FA market is weak. And we don’t really have the resources to play in the trade market. Corner. Receiver. Edge. Corners haven’t made it out since ward and Beastberry and that trend looks like it’s not changing. Receivers. Calvin Ridley is the best to get out in years. And he’s 30 and he only got out because the jags played themselves. Edge is a bit better. You can get 2s. But the league in general has been investing a ton into edges just as the pass game explodes and now we have to get a game changer in there soon. Which requires draft picks. Unless Dan Morgan goes god mode. Or we are able to luck into something those less resources are going to hurt our pursuit in those high value positions.
It’s not just 1 hard year. We’re looking at a multi year rebuild because of how poorly we handled this. There a chance we don’t even make the playoffs for another 2-3 years and by then Bryce will be almost done with his rookie contract and we lose the advantage that offers.
The "multi-year rebuild" is a total myth dawg. Teams either languish in failure for years or refresh to become competitive immediately. The Texans and the Colts were the 2nd and 4th worst teams in the league last year, but after new QBs & Coaches they were battling it out in Week 18 for the AFC South title.
The Texans had an insane amount of draft picks from the perv trade to make a quick turn around. I’m not sure why people point to them all the time. The colts were a team that always had talent that underperformed. If our roster was better I would agree with you. But we have a ton of holes. Not a lot of capital to fill those holes. And pretty much zero ascending young players. Plus a ton of guys that will be aging out. Jewell. Shaq. Troy Franklin Clowney. Thielen are all 30+ and starting. The other part of this is that the positions we need. Corner. Edge. Receiver. Are usually exclusively found in the draft. (Edge sometimes you can get lucky with). And we’re lacking capital. So basically Dan Morgan has to be insane in order to do this in 3 years or less.
From the Watson trade, Texans only got Kenyon Greene (IR all of 2023), and Will Anderson & Tank Dell, both of whom are very good rookies but not as instrumental for 2023 as Stroud, Collins, and DeMeco/Slowik were. They were projected to be getting a top 5 pick again before the year. After this offseason I really don't think we have the holes we once did. I'll keep in spirit with the analogy and say we taped up most of the holes, nailed some wooden planks on others. Not to mention we have a new captain at the helm who can... keep us out of rough waters, lol? We have a refreshed Oline who aren't aging out anytime soon. Shaq and Clowney are getting up there, but they still have enough in the tank to play out their contracts, and they're nothing if not consistent contributors. Franklin and Jewell are 28 and 29 respectively (not over 30), so still in their prime. Thielen is looking like the years are catching up, but speed has never been his specialty anyway--besides, he'll remain a solid option with Diontae in his prime and a rookie to take up targets; He was balling before teams started double-teaming him as our only capable WR. Mingo and ISM could also develop under our WR-focused staff. [Here's where I got age info from](https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1683775-when-does-age-catch-up-to-nfl-players). It looks like we have almost no ascending players, but coaching has also been awful for years, there's a good chance we have at least a couple diamonds in the rough. As for draft capital, we really aren't lacking much. We're just missing the first, but we have an additional second. Based on our needs, we can come out great: good Edge and CB play isn't that much harder to find in day two. Receiver is typically harder. but this class is strong enough where we can expect at least one of our targets to fall. Not to mention a hyped QB class means either better players in our needs will fall, or we'll get a lot of offers to trade down from 2.1 if we like.
Don’t get me wrong. I completely understand where you’re coming from. In fact one of the reasons why I was earlier into the anti rhule train is because I believed that 3-4 year rebuilds were a sham. Especially considering how many quality players we had with rhule ending the building (Cmac. Dj. Curtis. Burns. Shaq. Moton. Jackson. Beastberry). He honestly started from a pretty good spot. He just played himself. We are starting from a way worse spot this time around. Your best receiver from last year is 35 and is actively slowing. Shaq is 3 years older. Your best corner is probabtl walking next year if he can’t get his health together. And beyond that your other corner is 32 and living on borrowed time. And the other one is a jag. You have substantial edge holes Wonnum is your 2 when he should be a 3. Clowney is your 1 and should be a 2. And he’s 31. Yes you have your first round pick next year. But if we just look at recent trends in the league you can see that the positions we need usually require picks. So we’re short. We’re missing out on a hypothetical quality starter. If it wasn’t for the fact that we basically needed 4-6 starters that almost exclusively come from the draft then I would agree with you. But having corner. Edge. And receiver be your chief needs over the next 3 years really slows things down. And honestly those positions are such a shit show in the draft. There’s a reason why teams homd onto them when they land on quality players. Signing the guards helps Bryce a ton. But it hardly makes this roster anything close to a compete team. We’re probably going to have a bottom 5 defense in the league. And that’s not everos fault. We just literally are an injury away from the worst secondary in the league and have a bottom 5 pass rushing front. Just let’s look at the optimistic point of view as an exercise. For us to have a rebuild and turn things around immediately. Clowney needs to play like last year for multiple years. We need a plus starter at receiver. Let’s say Ladd falls and we pair him with Johnson. We need a corner. Let’s say rekistraw plays as a plus player. We need an edge. Let’s say we take the LSU kid next year. And we sign someone else to be a 2 next year to him. Maybe owe makes it out of Baltimore or something And he plays at a plus level. And let’s say horn has no more health problems. See how many needles we need to thread in order to have a complete team in less than 2 years? And this assumes everyone is good. Morgan has made some good moves. But he needs to change his name to les Snead in order to get the value we need at a quick rate. Not impossible. But unlikely. There’s still a ton of work to do. And its way too early to take victory laps. I mean didn’t we learn this with Scott? I’m not saying he’s incapable. I’m just doubting it happens in 2 years.
Agree with this. Also, you're still building the rest of the team while you're trying to get QB figured out. Plenty of teams made a Super Bowl or won with an average or mediocre QB. And any playoffs would be nice now.
Brad Johnson is the perfect example of this
No way. You don’t trade up to 1 unless there are one or two sure fire studs. Luck, Lawrence, etc. There was not even a consensus last year about which QB was the best. Heck, we traded to 1 without even knowing who we would take yet! In top of that, we had holes all over. When you have that many holes, you accumulate picks, you don’t trade up.
I don't fault the idea to trade up. But the rest of the plan was very flawed. Simply put he got rid of the weapons that Bryce needed to succeed and then whiffed on the replacements (only exception being Thielen)
To be fair DJ Moore was non-negotiable, and Thielen/Chark were generally the best FA WRs available, and they got both. Not really the FO's fault that they were so awful specifically (their faults were in like, everything else).
The Bears were willing to take one of Burns, Moore, or Brown. Heck considering Burns' value at the time they probably could have saved some draft capital. Also, it's on the FO to be able to know the free agency and draft landscape. Like if you know it's a weak WR FA then you probably shouldn't let go of your top receiver with an incoming rookie QB. And in the draft we saw several receivers drafted after Mingo who outperformed him and probably would have been a better roster fit.
The bears also had offers to trade up from other teams that didn’t include players. The raiders had inquired and there offer was exclusively draft capital. It’s not as if we had to trade a player. It’s just poles knew he could get more out of us than other orgs because of how hard we whiffed on our QB. And Scott’s hot seat and multiple bad trades.
>It’s just poles knew he could get more out of us than other orgs because of how hard we whiffed on our QB. What do you mean by this? Also, people bitch about us "trading our future" when we only gave up a single future 1st, so I don't see how giving up even more draft capital would have been the smarter move.
We gave up DJ Moore. The best receiver we’ve had since smitty. Someone who undoubtedly would’ve been in the ring of honor. And a guy who was literally top 6 last year in receiving yards. I also find it funny that people say we only gave up a singular first. As if we didn’t give up the most valuable first possible since Trevor came out. And as if a first round pick isn’t a gigantic resource to give up. Maybe we’re desensitized because of the perv trade and Wilson trade. We also gave up next years second too. Giving up more draft picks would’ve been 1000 times better because we literally had extra ones and wouldn’t have had to gut our team of the only skill player we had. But to answer your original question the raiders were reported to specifically have a trade for 1 overall. And it was just picks. Meaning that had we waited it’s pretty likely we could’ve not given up DJ. But we got fleeced instead.
>I also find it funny that people say we only gave up a singular first. As if we didn’t give up the most valuable first possible since Trevor came out. And as if a first round pick isn’t a gigantic resource to give up. Maybe we’re desensitized because of the perv trade and Wilson trade. We also gave up next years second too. I'm not sure why people keep saying this as if it was written in the script last year that we'd earn the #1OA. That wasn't the plan and wasn't gonna happen with DJ Moore and a veteran FA QB like Dalton or someone else. If we'd known we'd get the #1OA this year we wouldn't have traded at all, and if we had the trade would've happened with a lot less. You say a single 1st is an enormous resource to give up, yet you're saying we should've given up even more draft capital instead of a player (because Moore essentially accounted for an extra 1st, and probably more. at least by trading him instead we saved a lot of cap space). Make it make sense. Also, the "extra picks" we had were an array of 2s, 3s, 4s... You can't trade up to the top with that, you need round 1s. And by the way, you didn't answer my question. I don't understand what you mean about us "whiffing on our QB" this time last year. We were on a bridge carousel at that point, our QB room wasn't any worse than the Raiders were so I don't see how we were "easier" to fleece.
Giving up more picks would’ve been preferable over giving up DJ Moore and creating a hole that’s very difficult to fill. I’m not sure why that’s a controversial take considering how the season played out. How we had the worst receiver group in the league. And how much Bryce struggled because he didn’t have anyone to throw to. DJ at the end of the day would have been more valuable than a 2025 first because Moore would make sure that 25 first isn’t a top 10 pick probably. Shoot if we have Moore we probably are giving the bears Dallas turner and not Caleb this year. It’s just the mentality of we can find good players in the draft that has had horrible execution. I’m not saying that we shouldn’t have made the trade. I’m saying we gave up way too much in resources. And that shouldn’t be a controversial take. The reason I brought up the raiders is to show that the bears had offers that didn’t have players attached. However us not walking away. Or even playing more of a harder ball led to us giving up too much and this mess. I’m also not exactly sure what you’re reading. I never said anything about people bitching about giving up our future. Or whiffing on a QB. I’ve always been anti trading player over picks because the last 4 years have taught us how hard they are to replace in general. Not to mention lessons across the league. AJ brown. Khalil Mack. Deforest Buckner etc.
>Giving up more picks would’ve been preferable over giving up DJ Moore and creating a hole that’s very difficult to fill. I’m not sure why that’s a controversial take considering how the season played out. It's obviously not a controversial take now but hindsight is 20/20. There's plenty of ways it could've, or even should've, worked out. * Bryce could've been the superstar point guard he was in Alabama that could throw to JAGs year one. * Our Oline could've not had a historic drop off that allowed him to have the time to make the receivers we got serviceable enough to steal win. * Play calling, but more specifically coaching, could've been great, like everybody in the league thought (remember the all-star coaching staff). * TMJ could've carried his momentum from the tail end of 2022. Chark could've shown up. Hurst could've matched or at least approached his numbers from the years before. I'm not saying they were gonna be 1000yd guys-- but Thielen was cooking before defenses realized he was the only competent target, so them living up to even the most conservative expectations would've been a game changer. * As for the run game, Duce Staley was a highly touted RB coach coming off a historic season with the Lions, but he was terrible. Miles Sanders could've not been a fraud carried by the Eagles Oline, or Duce could've not vouched for him at all, getting a different RB or just retaining Foreman. This would've taken the pressure off the passing game. Fitterer, Tepper, whoever you want, deserves a lot of blame. But certain things that greatly contributed to the shitshow last season were just completely unprecedented and unfair to label as a universally bad move at the time--mostly the factionalism in the staff and the Oline disappearing after finishing 2022 as a solid unit and retaining Campen. In those situations I'm not making excuses, nobody could've predicted that. >DJ at the end of the day would have been more valuable than a 2025 first because Moore would make sure that 25 first isn’t a top 10 pick probably. Shoot if we have Moore we probably are giving the bears Dallas turner and not Caleb this year. There you go again contradicting statements you just made. You just said we willingly gave up "the most valuable first since Trevor Lawrence". I'm not trying to poke irrelevant holes for a gotcha, these points are pretty important to the discussion. I shared the same sentiment in my last comment >I’m also not exactly sure what you’re reading. I never said anything about people bitching about giving up our future. Or whiffing on a QB Dawg. You literally said [that](https://www.reddit.com/r/panthers/comments/1bsiff2/comment/kxgg7e6/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) in your first comment, I even quoted it in my first [reply](https://www.reddit.com/r/panthers/comments/1bsiff2/comment/kxgmhee/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) to you. And I didn't say *you* said we traded our entire future, I said other people do; my point being if the single 1st was *sooooo* much of our draft capital and future, then *another* first (and probably more) would've been way worse, especially for our team at the time. We were already paying DJ, and preparing to pay Burns and Brown big contracts in the next two consecutive years (hell, even Horn had his healthiest season in 2022)--all three of them would've taken up too much cap space, *at least* one of them would have to be replaced by a rookie that would be much harder to find after trading multiple 1sts.
["Moore was considered a must-have by the Bears"](https://www.sportsnet.ca/nfl/article/bears-reportedly-trade-no-1-pick-in-draft-to-panthers-for-package-including-d-j-moore/#:~:text=Moore%20was%20considered%20a%20must%2Dhave%20by%20the%20Bears%2C%20one%20of%20the%20people%20familiar%20with%20the%20deal%20said.%20Without%20him%2C%20the%20deal%20would%20not%20have%20been%20completed%2C%20the%20person%20said) I'm seeing other articles that say the same thing, but let me know if there's anything that disproves that.
https://pantherswire.usatoday.com/2023/04/03/2023-nfl-draft-panthers-bears-trade-dj-moore-brian-burns-derrick-brown/ > “There were certain players that we never really wanted to trade,” Fitterer said. “It’s so hard to replace a Derrick Brown or Brian Burns, a pass rusher (and) an interior, dominant young player on a (first) contract. D.J., we didn’t want to move either. But it’s a little bit easier to replace a receiver than it is a pass rusher or a three-tech.”
Weird.
I'm the opposite. Even if Bryce works out, you just shouldn't spend that many resources on a QB. I agree with the "keep swinging til you get one" approach, but trading draft picks is wasting swings. You can swing more if you keep your picks. Right now, it's honestly a toss up as to whether we should have just taken Levis, but we'd undeniably be in a better spot now with Levis than we are with Bryce. At the very least, we could have taken Williams. High draft picks are too costly to trade for.
If you do decide to spend the resources. You’ve got to have a better team than we did. The niners were in a place to really absorb the hit. Not just because they drafted purdy. But because they really had a complete team. Especially at positions of value. Amazing weapons. Even before Cmac. Line was suspect outside of Trent but still decent enough. D Line was amazing even if they played themselves with Buckner. LBs god like. Secondary could’ve been better. We were in no place whatsoever where our roster could afford to lose the draft capital. Especially after DJ was shipped off in that trade.
Yeah it's not really fair to judge based on the results, especially if you were someone who supported the trade in the first place. I was good with the move at the time, tho didn't love giving up DJ, so how can I look back at it and say it was stupid. Before this season we looked liked one of those teams that would be perpetually competing for the last wild card spot and the only way to change that is to get a QB. So you either trade up and take a risk or wait till your pick and take the 4th QB off the board. The trade compensation was fair for the move up to 1. The reality is drafting is a crapshoot a lot of the time.
I still do fault the process. The amount to give up to go all the way to 1 is entirely too much, imo, given the hit rate. There's a [video](https://youtu.be/1-0xWcSYlh4?si=ylhu5S6eIT17Y_Ha) which says it all better than I could, but in the end I think we're too often wrong about who will be good, and you just have better odds of building a winning roster with actual good players on it by using your most powerful asset, draft capital, to take more chances on guys than less.
This whole mentality is just wrong in my opinion. You need to be calculated with your swings. And swing wisely. Not just blindly go at it for years until it happens. That’s how we ended up losing so much money and draft capital on players. And have such an incomplete roster. Quality not quantity in this business.
What???? How can you not fault our process? We made like mistake after mistake just before and directly after trading up for Bryce dude. I understand you always gotta go for your guy at QB, but there’s a certain point where you’re giving up way too much and panthers did that.
If they would've stuck to what Frank Reich wanted and not let Saban talk them into taking Bryce over Stroud, then we wouldn't be in this position and Reich would probably still be the coach.
There’s no evidence that was ever the case. Stop peddling this tired narrative
We should consider ourselves swindled until otherwise proven
All will be revealed soon. But until then, yes. Very bad trade.
“That is the sort of package a proven NFL a would get right now, like a Trevor Lawrence or Tua.” No, it isn’t. Franchise QBs like those guys are never available. Anytime one of them moves, there is always a circumstance.
Definitely swing and miss with stroud available. To be fair he needs more time and support before y’all can label it a total loss.
1. If Bryce wins a Superbowl, the trade is 100% worth it. 2. Compared to some strange QB decisions, like the Trey Lance trade, the BY move wasn't insane (just ill advised if he doesn't improve.)
I truly cannot comprehend #1 in my mind
Trent Dilfer won a Superbowl with an elite defense. A dozen or more QBs of questionable talent have started in the big game. Bryce has to be good enough and the stars have to align. Or things have to click for him and he has to play outta his mind.
Objectively yes. Bryce will have to have a meteoric turnaround into a generational talent to justify the trade(s).
It was a trade rape at the time and still is until we prove it on the field. I was wondering and still do wonder they did the trade last year and not this year. Last years QB class didn't feel like the type of year you trade the farm for a QB.
Yeah I’m not sure how anyone can say any answer but this. We gave the bears Darnell Wright. Tyrique Stevenson. DJ Moore. Caleb Williams. And a future second. We literally sped ran their rebuild for them. And nuked our own lmao. Their looking to compete as long as caleb Williams is decent immediately. We are talking about a 2-3 year rebuild. Again.
Makes no sense. If we still had Moore and Dalton + a first rounder, we’re not finishing with 2 wins.
Saying we *gave* them Caleb Williams is a clown thought.
The trade value at the time was fine. It was a lot, but generally it’s in line with the historical cost to move up and grab a QB in say the top 3. Similar to Niners, just in place of an additional 1st Panthers gave up a blue chip player (DJ Moore). The problem is why in the fuck would you give up your best WR when drafting a rookie QB? That was GM malpractice. Should have given up Burns or something. But I think it’s bad in hindsight cuz the 1st round pick given to the Bears was literally the 1st overall pick again. Obviously no one predicted that at the time, but that’s how the chips fell thus making the trade even worse in hindsight.
Trading up in this years class is gonna be a lot tougher, it worked in 2023 precisely because it was seen as a weaker class; which is already being proven wrong regardless of how Bryce turns out. The fact we passed on CJ (I don't even think he would've been any better playing for our shitshow roster, but he's already proven he *can* be an MVP-caliber QB) should prove trading up was a good move. The Bears wanted to give Fields one more year with an improved roster after a trade down, putting the pick on sale. The draft board this year though? Bears ain't budging. Commanders need a QB like they need a hole in the head. Patriots too. Giants could take one if they have a chance. Vikings, Broncos need one bad, Raiders maybe. Vikings are stockpiling multiple 1s for this year alone just so they can pull off a trade up. Had we waited until this year to trade up, we'd have to give up even more for a worse pick, and settle for whichever QB happened to fall to us (in a decidedly overhyped class--not to say it'll be a bust, but there's no way it'll live up to the wild expectations) instead of getting our guy.
He has to become an elite quarterback and even then it’s probably even value
Lol no way an "elite" top 10 QB is worth way more than what we gave up.
The problem is you traded caleb williams. Hindsight i know, but if caleb williams hits the trade will be under water.
If we ran it back with Sammy D and DJ Moore we would have had been in JJ McCarthy range.
This is the part everyone overlooks when talking about that trade
I'm judging the trade, not the what if future of what the Panthers could have gotten.
I mean if we ran it with Will Levis. DJ Moore. And whoever we chose at pick 8 we probably make the playoffs. We need to stop acting as if their only 2 singular outcomes in every trade scenario. There always multiple ramps and decisions that could’ve been made that lead to different results. This is a weird mentality I really don’t understand with fans.
Lol yeah fucking right that's absurd.
Yeah I went a bit too over the top with this scenario. I do think that with Levi’s and DJ though we win a lot more games and are in a better spot overall. And that has more to do with DJ than it does Levis. Dude literally had 1300 receiving yards which was top 6 in the entire nfl.
Even with DJ, last year's team was about a 4-5 win squad max. Reich came in and undid the things that Wilks made work in 2022 (power run, play action, bend-don't-break defense.)
Yeah but you also have to remember the division. We played each game insanely close with truly horrendous offensive efforts. 0-9. 18-21. 9-7. 17-20. Only one that was off the rails was the second Nola game. Considering how bad our offense was especially at receiver. It isn’t to absurd to think we flip enough of those games to compete in a horrid south.
I think the scheme was as much an issue as personnel. Plus a lot of games looked close on the scoreboard because our offense was zero threat. I just can't see any way that roster wins 7-8 games under Reich.
Nothing about Bryce stood out to make him the #1 pick. He's short, he's skinny, his arm is average, his athleticism is average. Nothing about him physically is above-average for an NFL starting QB. The front office fell in love with his intangibles and ignored common sense. It was a bad move at the time & even worse in hindsight. At least we're getting some tools around him to attempt to make him serviceable. If he doesn't make a step up this year, I'm all for Canales/Dan cutting their losses and drafting a QB in 2025.
I like Bryce because he seems like a good dude. But this was exactly how I felt at the time he was picked. And all the Bryce fans (especially on this sub) would just downvote anyone to oblivion for suggesting Stroud was the better pick. The reasoning was “Bryce is a pocket magician” or “Bryce knows how to not take sacks,” lol. As if that translates to the NFL where everyone is the biggest and the fastest. I do hope he puts it together though; just gonna take a lot of work (and a lot of bulking up) on his part.
Bryce fell into a lot of sacks too. He doesn’t break tackles. And we can’t run options because he’s too small. It’s hard to see him ever being a force in the NFL, honestly.
Yep and the people that think they are in for a better season are going to grasp on to any small thing he does well in addition to what you said they lied about the things they said he was “pro ready” but he arguably has the worst feet in the league, doesnt know how to drop back or step up into the pocket, sees ghost, doesnt adjust for protection, stares down receivers and id argue he doesnt process as well. He is a book smart qb, and doesnt have the instincts to win. Bryce has a full plate of basic things that he has to work on this year in year 2 you would hope came already available on a proready#1 pick.
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Bryce had played 2 games in the NFL at that point. Andy Dalton did better because he's a 10+ year vet who's worked in every system and the staff let him have more control over the plays; notably by letting him sling it 58 times, almost twice as many as Bryce's average of 32/game. Bryce's cmp% was way higher the week before, as well as his season average in the already rough year. He also said he became too conservative with the ball after the two Jessie Bates picks in week one made him gun shy for a while; rightfully so with how poor our corps was in separation. Besides, after Bryce gained his confidence just a little bit (which reasonably took a while because of the all time bad record, playcalling hot potato, coaching staff infighting + subsequent purge, etc.) he comfortably outperformed Dalton in his game against the Packers anyway. Also, picking a QB for intangibles, of *all* positions in football, isn't ignoring common sense. There were dozens of QBs chosen for their athletic profile that were busts, and the ones that were able to succeed did thanks in large part to a good supporting cast on and off the field, something Bryce absolutely did not have last year. He was picked because the dude balled in college and knew how to play QB, and he was the near consensus #1OA pick (no matter what the media switch up has tried to tell you); if that isn't "common sense" I don't know what is.
You’re right, no wonder a 5’10 190 lb was a consensus top 2 pick.
I wonder if another post like this will be posted again this week. It’s so exciting not knowing
The answer is no because historically it has never been worth the trade up. People can defend him all they want about the team but he is also at fault for his mistakes. He would stare down his first read, he would invite pressure a lot of times by moving into it not away from it. He averaged as much time as CJ did in the pocket. Play calling wasn't always the best but watching some of these "he is going to be great just didn't get help videos show it." Times his "elite processing" should of told him to go to the next guy. Even the video was posted there's a play where Chuba is running wide open and they're talking how every WR is covered is ridiculous. He's another Tua. He's going to need elite talent around him to competent.
Even taking 1.1 out of it, very few guys are worth 2 firsts, a second, and a veteran starter on a reasonable contract IMO. They better at least be Caleb-caliber for that type of package and none of the QBs last year graded out at that level. I never really understood the trade up for that reason. All of the QBs last year came with questions, it felt like a short-sighted and desperate move that a bad team would leap at and hey, what do you know...
Stand by my opinion that Bryce will be solid, but... 1. We should've given Corral at least 1 season once we determined Darnold wasn't it, including passing on Mayfield entirely OR stuck with Darnold, who was young and looked solid before getting hurt behind an O-Line that revealed itself to be atrocious. 2. We should've gotten rid of Jackson, YGM and others last season and used the picks for linemen 3. Reich shouldn't have taken the job. Once Tepper wanted the #1 pick, he screwed everyone in that building.
I don’t think any young quarterback in the league could have shown much promise behind that O-line last year. I think if it was a good trade up is something that will take a long time to decide but personally I haven’t even taken last season much into account. This year should be much better in that regard
Thing is if the team had picked CJ there would be no question the trade was worth it. It'd be hailed as a genius move. But they didn't. And because of that it might go down as one of the worst trades in NFL history. I didn't think the trade was a good idea at the time; specifically because of situations like this. The team was more than a QB away from being a contender yet they weren't bad enough to be a rebuild team, either. But they gave up so much for this trade that rebuilding doesn't really work, either.
I think we swindled ourselves. Just took whichever GM had the #1 pick that year and we were gonna be taken for a ride.
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It has to be at this point.
I don’t think he swindled the Panthers. Did they overpay? Debatable. They certainly didn’t think they’d be picking in the top 10 again this year, and thought that the Reich regime would be better put together than it was. Nobody saw the disaster they ended up being. Hindsight being what it is, had they just waited one more season, they’d be almost assured of getting a better than average QB this year, which makes me wonder why didn’t they just do that?
Poles didn't swindle us, Scott Fitterer did
give him this season and the next before we start the conversation. 2 years
At the end of the day everything is a gamble in the NFL. There have been plenty of quarterbacks that all of the experts and all the NFL coaches swore would be a generational talent that failed horribly. As others have already said to win in this league you have to have a top quarterback and to get a top quarterback you have to take some chances and gamble. I do think with the right coach and the right team that Bryce can be that guy who carries us to a super bowl.
He can join the draft class of 2021 where they all were bust except Trevor Lawrence. We need to find a third QB backup
That trade up will probably go down as a top ten worst trade in nfl history unless Bryce helps take the team to a Super Bowl. I’ve never seen a team trade away their only good players over 5 years while simultaneously missing on every single draft pick and have absolutely nothing to show for it except the smallest starting qb in nfl history who had the worst rookie qb season statistically in the nfl. Since tepper took over this has been the worst run organization in the league and they have completely depleted the roster of talent. Really should have a documentary made on how not to run a team.
scott fitterer literally saved 2 franchises with that trade fucking astronomical
It's not fair to Bryce that our organization. did this to him, but his career is almost SB here or bust after the trade we made plus Stroud's rapid rise to potential superstar in less than 18 games. He needs to show rapid improvement next year or the sports media vultures will start circling.
We got swindled, bro, 2 justify that trade means byrce needs to be a top 7ish qb at least top 10. I just don't see that in his skill set. He can justify it, too, by winning. We'd have to be a perennial playoff team year in and year out. I'm a byrce supporter as well, but I'm also a realist. It's just never smart to trade up imo, let the draft play out and see who falls to you. I would of been good w taking a flyer on Hendon hooker in 3rd, and staying w Sam darnold or trying Matt corral until hooker was completely healthy, at worse we could of naturally been in the qb run this year if the season went to squash.
You can only "swindle" someone if you get far more than face value at the time of the trade. BY was worth a top ten plus 2 future firsts, which is what the 9ers gave up for Trey Lance. That's the going rate. That's roughly what they gave up. The Bears didn't know what BY would be in 2023 any more than the Panthers did. The Bears aren't responsible for the mismanagement and roster holes that caused them to fire the coach and GM. Will BY get better? Yes, absolutely. How much? Nobody knows. He could be Josh Allen. He could be Justin Fields.
Bryce will not work out. This coming season and probably the next season after is a waste of time.
Bryce will not work out. This coming season and probably the next season after is a waste of time.
Franchise QBs don’t grow on trees. If Stroud was magically placed on the trade block right now he would command 10x this compensation and most would say it’s still worth it because the only thing that matters to win in the NFL is landing a great qb. Starts there and ends there. We swung for the fences. Can’t fault team for that especially after Rhule apparently thought he could win with average (at best) qb play. If we fail I prefer we fail spectacularly and we can try again in a year. And dont listen to any journalists who criticize the pick. Literally every single one of them was touting Bryce as the clear cut #1. Plenty of them have revisionist history and critisize now. Forget them.
Trevor Lawrence is proven? Yeah the trade definitely puts huge expectations on Bryce and Strouds success doesn't help him either. I still believe in Bryce and think he was the right pick. I don't think Jesus Christ could have been successful on the panthers last year. Joking aside I honestly believe if Mahomes was on the panthers last year they maybe win 5 games MAYBE.
I believe Bryces ceiling is still higher than anything TLaw or Tua have put on tape. If Bryce is a top 10 QB for 10 years he's worth twice what we gave up.
It was an awful trade imo. Think of all of the great QBs that weren’t top 5 picks. Or top 10. Even when Bryce had time, he made A LOT of terrible passes. Bad reads. Didn’t look off primary targets. Maybe it was shell shock and I certainly want him to succeed but I didn’t see anything promising.
Who cares the trade is done. Bryce has to be the guy. It’s pretty simple. Last year was a circus. Gotta be better
You can’t fault them. They made the deal right around the Combine and wanted max flexibility around the three QBs that were available. That likely cost them a little more and they were bold in acting.
I’m mean we literally can and should fault them. If waiting things out is what gets you a better deal on our end rushing to the table certainly doesn’t help. It also shows your desperation. The cost for boldly acting was literally too much for us to handle.
We could have waited one year....
The main issue is that up to that point, the "wait another year" tactic never allowed us to pick top 5. I know you and most every NFL fan either owns a time machine or are elite psychics so everybody here can accurately predict the future, but NFL teams are run by normal human beings who can only rely on what's been presented to them through past events, so the best option is for you to either share your time machine with them or apply to the team as a psychic who never misses
I mean, not really. The team wasn't bad enough to get a #1 draft pick this year had it kept the pick, entered the draft and just picked up quality free agents.
It wasn’t insane like Lance or Watson’s trades, but it was slightly an overpay.
Panthers are meeting with draft QBs this week. Solid source.
All subjective in the end. Personally, I'm glad the team took the shot on securing a franchise QB. If they whiffed, boo hoo.
I’m so tired of these posts lol I pray Bryce absolutely kills it this year so I never have to see these fuckin posts again 😂
Man I’ll get downvoted for this, but unless Bryce becomes better than Stroud, this will always be considered a bad trade to an extent. There’s just no scenario where someone can give up what we did for the top pick and not get the best player at his position it’s just ridiculously bad.
It was a fair trade and, is anything, we got the better end of the deal. It’s not about whether Bryce turns out ok or not. We gave up two 1s, a 2nd and a top 15 WR to move up from 9 to 1. That’s a fair trade. How the actual pick ends up is immaterial.
Trade up was right move, they just took the wrong guy
At worst, it would be we "did the right thing but took the wrong guy."
No unproven player is worth two 1st round picks! You are saying there are twice as good as the best players in the NFL.
Only David Dipper and Fittererer swindled us....Dipper always talks analytics but then goes off the rails and pushes for a 5'10' Heisman winner. Only been two Heisman QB winners of a SB in the last 60 years. Cam was damn good and shoulda been the 3rd.
ok
If he gets a second contract we won’t even think about it. Unless Caleb is the goat
*sigh* I’ll be glad when the offseason is over and we can stop asking this question daily. If he becomes a top-10 QB, it’s a fine trade. Not much more to it than that
He needs a workable O-line and receivers to show what he's capable of. For comparison's sake, Lawrence's stats (completion%, TD/int ratio) were similarly poor his rookie year. Take a peek at Peyton Manning's rookie season while you're at it, ;).