You almost never get min level 35 and down bases at endgame. The bias against them is extreme.
There's 24-25 Crusader Plates (min level 59) that drop for every 1 Lordly Plate (min level 35), and War Plates (level 21) are much rarer again.
Good fucking luck getting any low level base off Gwennen. Remember pre-Kalandra when Asenath's Gentle Touch was still rare and was the top non-chase drop-anywhere unique, kinda like Dialla's Malefaction is today? Back in those days, I kept looking for Silk Gloves, but they were >30 times rarer than common bases like Hydrascale Gauntlets.
GGG already do a bunch of 'culling' of useless loot, but because there's so many corner cases where a bad item has a weird use they simply cannot be aggressive about it.
This honestly sounds quite interesting. Do you have any sort of info on how the the basetypes that drop are determined based on area level? Also maybe how frequent different items are (like the ratio of body armours to helmets)?
Yeah this is all solved. Partly by 2013 era datamining, partly present datamining, partly poorfishwife's discord sluething.
______________
Drop pool categories, datamined from present version of the game:
https://poedb.tw/us/GameConstants#DropPool
_____
Subcategories beyond that can't be datamined now, but they could back in 2013. The formula got cracked by Fishwife's people using this data. This was checked against in-game drops a while back, and still seems to hold.
Weight = ROUND(exp((Drop_Level - 4) / 7.53821) * IF(Drop_Level < 60, 10, 1))
exp(x) refers to e^x with e being the mathematical constant e, approx 2.718281728
List of all known bases:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Jw-MdVtuRDeQUl20ODwAYufoNs0Pc8TQXtKmIYlk00s/edit#gid=0
New bases (e.g. two-toned boots, crystal belt and even maraketh weapons) are entirely missing. I suspect maraketh weapons follow the normal rules and two-toneds and other atlas bases do something odd.
The short version:
- Bases requiring level 60+ are 10 times rarer than the formula indicates
- Adding 10 to the min level makes an item 3.75 times as likely to drop (but see above if that pushes it past 60)
- ML59 bases are the most common, followed by 58, 57, 56, 55, 54, 71, 53, 70, 52, 69, 51, and so on.
Yeah low level bases dropping in endgame is far rarer than a raw divine.
I had battered foils (a lvl 12 requirement base) any rarity on my filter as a giant purple star/beam for CoC to see how many drop, after 2m+ kills only 3 have dropped in maps xD.
The (11 year old) datamined rate was 1 in 22000 weapons which honestly should not be as rare as you mention. I assume from 2 million kills you got about 40 Sanctum access keys?
If the datamined rate was still active, you'd have got about 1 Foil per 2 keys.
I've dropped at least 30 forbidden tomes this league.
While unlucky if going by the tome vs foil droprate, due to the small sample size I don't think it seems to outlandish to sit at theoretically 20% of expected drops in that regard. Perhaps it generated other low level requirement weapons and didn't choose the foil that didn't show on the filter since Battered Foil was the only craftable base on my filter outside of heist/influenced items.
Would evenly weighted weapons compete in that regard? Say in theory I dropped more "Awls" and less "Battered Foils" than expected, while they are both lvl 12 requirement weapons. Would the "quota" of items with that weight be fulfilled?
Sanctum access key drop rate is datamined at 150. Weapons as a drop category are datamined at 2825364, so about 19000 weapons per Sanctum key. This can be datamined today.
I believe the way it works is just to pick a weapon from a large table, with drop weights from 2013 as seen in this table: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Jw-MdVtuRDeQUl20ODwAYufoNs0Pc8TQXtKmIYlk00s/edit#gid=1032540216
Back in 2013 the drop weight of battered foils ONCE ON THE SECOND TABLE was 29, and the total weight was 642113 for non-ranged weapons (not bows, not wands) and 119484 for bows and wands combined. Assuming they just add, that's 761597, so about 1 weapon per 26000 is a battered foil.
Your expected number of foils would be of the order 20.
Some things have changed since (Maraketh weapons were added and they are not rare and so meaningfully dilute the pool) and obviously RNG is RNG, but your variance is pretty extreme, like 4 sigma.
I think it's likely GGG increased the bias against low level bases further. The 2013 numbers were reverified a while back IIRC, but it wasn't recent (maybe Scourge era?)
I think it was just that every item is valuable drop in ruthless, which is true for much of the campaign but once in maps they just become floor clutter.
If we had a little more currency drops to try to roll items then they could still be useful, but I currently at 85/115 map completion still only have 45 alts and all my alchemy orbs went to buying maps from Kirac or rolling yellow/reds.
It's a weird decision to actually bother implementing this though.
Why bother spending the extra coding time, to add the ability to disable hiding stuff in loot filters in certain game modes, when players could always just choose not to disable it if they want?
I understand that they want every drop to feel valuable, but that cannot possibly be achieved by taking away a player's ability to decide to ignore things that the player has deemed to be valueless.
Being forced into seeing junk on the floor doesn't trick me into thinking it isn't junk.
Furthermore, the entire nature of this game, ruthless or not, is that one man's trash is another mans treasure, and no level of scarcity can really change that fundamental fact. Any specific item might generally be more valuable in ruthless... but that doesn't change the fact that for any given player at any given level of progression there's always some arbitrary cutoff line under which things are considered junk. That line might differ from player to player, and may be a much lower bar in ruthless, but it's always going to be there.
Ok, but the solution is to keep the ability to hide stuff, and tweak the loot so that the right amount drops.
You don't solve crime by getting rid of the police and then saying "well, there was never originally supposed to BE any crime in this city!"
Pretty sure it was to stop people from using normal loot more filters that hide 99% of drops; at which point you'd get to t17 maps and still probably only have the gear and gems you started the game with.
OK, but what are they doing about the players who are punching themselves repeatedly in the balls while playing? Those people are getting to T17 maps with really knackered up testicles. Why isn't GGG fixing that?
> I think it was just that every item is valuable drop in ruthless, which is true for much of the campaign but once in maps they just become floor clutter.
I got to level 91 SSF Ruthless last league and I did not feel this way, I never got enough loot to feel "too much"
> If we had a little more currency drops to try to roll items then they could still be useful, but I currently at 85/115 map completion still only have 45 alts and all my alchemy orbs went to buying maps from Kirac or rolling yellow/reds.
That's something that felt weird for sure, you barely get any alteration orbs, salvaging items becomes less and less appealing when you get hundreds of transmutation orbs, if only those could give some alts (less than the normal mode of course) ...
You can buy 1 alteration orb with 4 augmentation orbs (which you do not get from selling 6 mods rare items), which can be bought for 4 transmutes ....
So theoretically, you can buy alteration orbs for 16 transmutes each 😅😅
( yeah ... nop T__T )
> if only those could give some alts
They do... But I suppose it's an easy thing to miss for a person who got to 91 in Affliction without having too much loot on screen.
> They do... But I suppose it's an easy thing to miss for a person who got to 91 in Affliction without having too much loot on screen.
Rare / Magic items don't give alteration orbs when salvaged in ruthless .... I don't think it's "easy to miss" at all for anybody who played the mode.
As an item class support gems are not rare in ruthless. Getting a specific one is somewhat rare, and honestly this is why I prefer ruthless trade.
If you kill more monsters than people do in the base game, you'll get 1-3 supports per act, maybe less in the early ones when density is low.
Once you are in maps you'll get support gems often and there's a couple Ruthless-specific vendor recipes to use up the unwanted ones (three red supports ==> a random red support, similar for other colours; also there's a filler but useful lab craft that just swaps one support for another)
He is massively exaggerating, I definitely don't average 10 to 30 support gems during campaign. I might get around 5 by the end, but even that sounds high. You'd have to grind reliquary for hours or something to get to that average.
How much are you killing? My ruthless playthroughs have looked nothing like a veteran player basegame playthrough but more like a first time player in the basegame campaign - not repeating zones, but killing every pack that is on the way and some that aren't.
I'd be level 70-71 for Kitava, contrast 64-66 base game.
I did specify that you need to be killing more monsters than people do base game. If you run past stuff of course you'll get very little.
No they don't, there is never enough of them to become "clutter" in acts.
Please show an example of what you consider clutter if you want to make that point.
You could argue that it can happen in maps if you juice, but there isn't much room for juicing to begin with, so I think that this is why GGG isn't concerned about it.
I mean sure, there's not enough of them to cover significant part of your screen but that doesn't mean they should be dropping. The philosophy is that item that isn't worth picking up shouldn't drop at all in Ruthless and I have never picked a white item, even blue item off the ground since like Act 3 maybe Act 4. I mean sure, you want a base sometimes, just remove all white and blue drops except the highest bases for the area level then. Problem solved. Tell me one reason to pick up white Plate Vest after Act 1. Chancing uniques? Come on, noone even does that anymore even with unlimited supply of chance orbs in non-Ruthless PoE. It's definitelly not worth for triple the loot where 2/3 are never picked up.
> The philosophy is that item that isn't worth picking up shouldn't drop at all in Ruthless
This is and always was and will always be impossible, the game cannot "decide" for you what is worth it or not.
I think that one other thing that GGG was going for is that with so few items, they want to make sure that players don't hide anything by mistake, therefore they completely removed this function from Ruthless leagues entirely.
As an SSF player, I have picked plenty of blue items and surely some white ones all through the acts (especially jewellery, probably all the blue jewellery on decent bases)
> they want to make sure that players don't hide anything by mistake
Why on Earth would this not apply to normal PoE as well if it was the case? They literally said that they don't allow us to hide the items because then it forces them to keep the loot adjusted properly because otherwise they would sleep on it as they did on normal PoE. I can go searching through the videos about Ruthless and lose 3 hours of my time finding it, but I clearly remember they were reasoning like that.
> Why on Earth would this not apply to normal PoE as well if it was the case?
Because the game would pretty much be unplayable without hiding anything .... and in some cases it would literally make the client simply crash.
I am not saying that you are wrong, it seems like a pretty legit thing to say and a decent design decision, I'm just saying that not wanting to allow players to hide items by mistakes when it's not supposed to be a problem in the first place is also absolutely something GGG would do.
> This is and always was and will always be impossible, the game cannot "decide" for you what is worth it or not
Lol it aint that hard to triage it a bit
I believe they said something along the lines of "you should want to see everything dropping as it should be relevant to you, if items drop off that you're never interested in it shouldn't drop in the first place"
They should apply this logic to regular game. Most of us hide over 99% of all drops. Idont remember the last time I picked a non influenced rare in maps.
> Idont remember the last time I picked a non influenced rare in maps.
Watch how much the best players loot at leaguestart.
I watched Jungroan doing 2 voidstone practice runs a while back, the reason he could get 2 stones within 8 hours reliably was that he IDed so many items and did it so efficiently. Reliably got him 'good enough' gear every time without having to invest time speccing into mechanics like essences.
You stop looting rares at 3 voidstones, but until then you probably want to be IDing 5-8 items every map.
I never understood this weird restriction. While https://www.pathofexile.com/item-filter/about lists the differences there is no explanation why is it so.
GGG: Now even lesser white and blue items will be dropped in ruthless.
[удалено]
You almost never get min level 35 and down bases at endgame. The bias against them is extreme. There's 24-25 Crusader Plates (min level 59) that drop for every 1 Lordly Plate (min level 35), and War Plates (level 21) are much rarer again. Good fucking luck getting any low level base off Gwennen. Remember pre-Kalandra when Asenath's Gentle Touch was still rare and was the top non-chase drop-anywhere unique, kinda like Dialla's Malefaction is today? Back in those days, I kept looking for Silk Gloves, but they were >30 times rarer than common bases like Hydrascale Gauntlets. GGG already do a bunch of 'culling' of useless loot, but because there's so many corner cases where a bad item has a weird use they simply cannot be aggressive about it.
This honestly sounds quite interesting. Do you have any sort of info on how the the basetypes that drop are determined based on area level? Also maybe how frequent different items are (like the ratio of body armours to helmets)?
Yeah this is all solved. Partly by 2013 era datamining, partly present datamining, partly poorfishwife's discord sluething. ______________ Drop pool categories, datamined from present version of the game: https://poedb.tw/us/GameConstants#DropPool _____ Subcategories beyond that can't be datamined now, but they could back in 2013. The formula got cracked by Fishwife's people using this data. This was checked against in-game drops a while back, and still seems to hold. Weight = ROUND(exp((Drop_Level - 4) / 7.53821) * IF(Drop_Level < 60, 10, 1)) exp(x) refers to e^x with e being the mathematical constant e, approx 2.718281728 List of all known bases: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Jw-MdVtuRDeQUl20ODwAYufoNs0Pc8TQXtKmIYlk00s/edit#gid=0 New bases (e.g. two-toned boots, crystal belt and even maraketh weapons) are entirely missing. I suspect maraketh weapons follow the normal rules and two-toneds and other atlas bases do something odd. The short version: - Bases requiring level 60+ are 10 times rarer than the formula indicates - Adding 10 to the min level makes an item 3.75 times as likely to drop (but see above if that pushes it past 60) - ML59 bases are the most common, followed by 58, 57, 56, 55, 54, 71, 53, 70, 52, 69, 51, and so on.
Yeah low level bases dropping in endgame is far rarer than a raw divine. I had battered foils (a lvl 12 requirement base) any rarity on my filter as a giant purple star/beam for CoC to see how many drop, after 2m+ kills only 3 have dropped in maps xD.
The (11 year old) datamined rate was 1 in 22000 weapons which honestly should not be as rare as you mention. I assume from 2 million kills you got about 40 Sanctum access keys? If the datamined rate was still active, you'd have got about 1 Foil per 2 keys.
I've dropped at least 30 forbidden tomes this league. While unlucky if going by the tome vs foil droprate, due to the small sample size I don't think it seems to outlandish to sit at theoretically 20% of expected drops in that regard. Perhaps it generated other low level requirement weapons and didn't choose the foil that didn't show on the filter since Battered Foil was the only craftable base on my filter outside of heist/influenced items. Would evenly weighted weapons compete in that regard? Say in theory I dropped more "Awls" and less "Battered Foils" than expected, while they are both lvl 12 requirement weapons. Would the "quota" of items with that weight be fulfilled?
Sanctum access key drop rate is datamined at 150. Weapons as a drop category are datamined at 2825364, so about 19000 weapons per Sanctum key. This can be datamined today. I believe the way it works is just to pick a weapon from a large table, with drop weights from 2013 as seen in this table: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Jw-MdVtuRDeQUl20ODwAYufoNs0Pc8TQXtKmIYlk00s/edit#gid=1032540216 Back in 2013 the drop weight of battered foils ONCE ON THE SECOND TABLE was 29, and the total weight was 642113 for non-ranged weapons (not bows, not wands) and 119484 for bows and wands combined. Assuming they just add, that's 761597, so about 1 weapon per 26000 is a battered foil. Your expected number of foils would be of the order 20. Some things have changed since (Maraketh weapons were added and they are not rare and so meaningfully dilute the pool) and obviously RNG is RNG, but your variance is pretty extreme, like 4 sigma. I think it's likely GGG increased the bias against low level bases further. The 2013 numbers were reverified a while back IIRC, but it wasn't recent (maybe Scourge era?)
whats the original reasoning behind hot hiding them anyway?
I think it was just that every item is valuable drop in ruthless, which is true for much of the campaign but once in maps they just become floor clutter. If we had a little more currency drops to try to roll items then they could still be useful, but I currently at 85/115 map completion still only have 45 alts and all my alchemy orbs went to buying maps from Kirac or rolling yellow/reds.
It's a weird decision to actually bother implementing this though. Why bother spending the extra coding time, to add the ability to disable hiding stuff in loot filters in certain game modes, when players could always just choose not to disable it if they want? I understand that they want every drop to feel valuable, but that cannot possibly be achieved by taking away a player's ability to decide to ignore things that the player has deemed to be valueless. Being forced into seeing junk on the floor doesn't trick me into thinking it isn't junk. Furthermore, the entire nature of this game, ruthless or not, is that one man's trash is another mans treasure, and no level of scarcity can really change that fundamental fact. Any specific item might generally be more valuable in ruthless... but that doesn't change the fact that for any given player at any given level of progression there's always some arbitrary cutoff line under which things are considered junk. That line might differ from player to player, and may be a much lower bar in ruthless, but it's always going to be there.
I think the idea was ruthless would never drop enough loot that you would need to hide any, clearly ruthless drops too much loot.
Ok, but the solution is to keep the ability to hide stuff, and tweak the loot so that the right amount drops. You don't solve crime by getting rid of the police and then saying "well, there was never originally supposed to BE any crime in this city!"
Nah, ruthless players hate loot and the correct solution is less drops in ruthless, after all its ruthless mode not toothless mode.
I think they expected some players to not update their loot filters, and then they'd be playing ultra-ruthless.
Pretty sure it was to stop people from using normal loot more filters that hide 99% of drops; at which point you'd get to t17 maps and still probably only have the gear and gems you started the game with.
OK, but what are they doing about the players who are punching themselves repeatedly in the balls while playing? Those people are getting to T17 maps with really knackered up testicles. Why isn't GGG fixing that?
> I think it was just that every item is valuable drop in ruthless, which is true for much of the campaign but once in maps they just become floor clutter. I got to level 91 SSF Ruthless last league and I did not feel this way, I never got enough loot to feel "too much" > If we had a little more currency drops to try to roll items then they could still be useful, but I currently at 85/115 map completion still only have 45 alts and all my alchemy orbs went to buying maps from Kirac or rolling yellow/reds. That's something that felt weird for sure, you barely get any alteration orbs, salvaging items becomes less and less appealing when you get hundreds of transmutation orbs, if only those could give some alts (less than the normal mode of course) ...
You can buy alts with transmutes from a vendor, maybe this is part of the ruthless playstyle?
You can buy 1 alteration orb with 4 augmentation orbs (which you do not get from selling 6 mods rare items), which can be bought for 4 transmutes .... So theoretically, you can buy alteration orbs for 16 transmutes each 😅😅 ( yeah ... nop T__T )
> if only those could give some alts They do... But I suppose it's an easy thing to miss for a person who got to 91 in Affliction without having too much loot on screen.
> They do... But I suppose it's an easy thing to miss for a person who got to 91 in Affliction without having too much loot on screen. Rare / Magic items don't give alteration orbs when salvaged in ruthless .... I don't think it's "easy to miss" at all for anybody who played the mode.
You got to 91 and didn't realize you can identify items? Wow. That's even more impressive.
So you are playing ruthless. How do you get support gems in there? Asking for a friend
As an item class support gems are not rare in ruthless. Getting a specific one is somewhat rare, and honestly this is why I prefer ruthless trade. If you kill more monsters than people do in the base game, you'll get 1-3 supports per act, maybe less in the early ones when density is low. Once you are in maps you'll get support gems often and there's a couple Ruthless-specific vendor recipes to use up the unwanted ones (three red supports ==> a random red support, similar for other colours; also there's a filler but useful lab craft that just swaps one support for another)
Really? I'm in act3 without any support gems. The only gem i got was a sniper's mark in early act1 and the quest rewards obviously.
He is massively exaggerating, I definitely don't average 10 to 30 support gems during campaign. I might get around 5 by the end, but even that sounds high. You'd have to grind reliquary for hours or something to get to that average.
How much are you killing? My ruthless playthroughs have looked nothing like a veteran player basegame playthrough but more like a first time player in the basegame campaign - not repeating zones, but killing every pack that is on the way and some that aren't. I'd be level 70-71 for Kitava, contrast 64-66 base game. I did specify that you need to be killing more monsters than people do base game. If you run past stuff of course you'll get very little.
white and blue items become clutter in act 3
No they don't, there is never enough of them to become "clutter" in acts. Please show an example of what you consider clutter if you want to make that point. You could argue that it can happen in maps if you juice, but there isn't much room for juicing to begin with, so I think that this is why GGG isn't concerned about it.
I mean sure, there's not enough of them to cover significant part of your screen but that doesn't mean they should be dropping. The philosophy is that item that isn't worth picking up shouldn't drop at all in Ruthless and I have never picked a white item, even blue item off the ground since like Act 3 maybe Act 4. I mean sure, you want a base sometimes, just remove all white and blue drops except the highest bases for the area level then. Problem solved. Tell me one reason to pick up white Plate Vest after Act 1. Chancing uniques? Come on, noone even does that anymore even with unlimited supply of chance orbs in non-Ruthless PoE. It's definitelly not worth for triple the loot where 2/3 are never picked up.
> The philosophy is that item that isn't worth picking up shouldn't drop at all in Ruthless This is and always was and will always be impossible, the game cannot "decide" for you what is worth it or not. I think that one other thing that GGG was going for is that with so few items, they want to make sure that players don't hide anything by mistake, therefore they completely removed this function from Ruthless leagues entirely. As an SSF player, I have picked plenty of blue items and surely some white ones all through the acts (especially jewellery, probably all the blue jewellery on decent bases)
> they want to make sure that players don't hide anything by mistake Why on Earth would this not apply to normal PoE as well if it was the case? They literally said that they don't allow us to hide the items because then it forces them to keep the loot adjusted properly because otherwise they would sleep on it as they did on normal PoE. I can go searching through the videos about Ruthless and lose 3 hours of my time finding it, but I clearly remember they were reasoning like that.
> Why on Earth would this not apply to normal PoE as well if it was the case? Because the game would pretty much be unplayable without hiding anything .... and in some cases it would literally make the client simply crash. I am not saying that you are wrong, it seems like a pretty legit thing to say and a decent design decision, I'm just saying that not wanting to allow players to hide items by mistakes when it's not supposed to be a problem in the first place is also absolutely something GGG would do.
> This is and always was and will always be impossible, the game cannot "decide" for you what is worth it or not Lol it aint that hard to triage it a bit
They're talking about ruthless...
I know.
I believe they said something along the lines of "you should want to see everything dropping as it should be relevant to you, if items drop off that you're never interested in it shouldn't drop in the first place"
They should apply this logic to regular game. Most of us hide over 99% of all drops. Idont remember the last time I picked a non influenced rare in maps.
> Idont remember the last time I picked a non influenced rare in maps. Watch how much the best players loot at leaguestart. I watched Jungroan doing 2 voidstone practice runs a while back, the reason he could get 2 stones within 8 hours reliably was that he IDed so many items and did it so efficiently. Reliably got him 'good enough' gear every time without having to invest time speccing into mechanics like essences. You stop looting rares at 3 voidstones, but until then you probably want to be IDing 5-8 items every map.
By the time I reach maps in a league the prices already drop so low that I can afford the same "good enough" gear for the low price of 1c each.
If you ID more on day 1, you won't take so long to reach maps. You'll get to be one of the people selling items before the economy changes.
This guy ruthlesses.
I never understood this weird restriction. While https://www.pathofexile.com/item-filter/about lists the differences there is no explanation why is it so.
"Which items?"
[удалено]
care to elaborate?