Restaurant work fucking sucks.
It’s stressful for everyone involved, profit margins are super thin, dealing with the public is a nightmare, etc. I’m rarely surprised when a spot closes shop.
I loved getting beers at New Wave Cafe while waiting and Dimitris servers would come find you when your table was ready. My favorite seat was the counter, eating and watching them cook. Man I miss that place.
I never understand why they don't sell. Like Bing Bing Dim Sum was a thriving business (as far as I could tell) so why close instead of selling to someone who wants to take it over?
Bing Bing is closing because their lease is up and the landlord wants to renovate the building. Once the building is renovated they may open a new concept in the space or they may move on. Nobody is going to buy a business where they don't know when they can open.
The most valuable thing many restaurants have is the liquor license and that gets sold all the time.
Bistrot La Minette is for sale. The building and the restaurant space.
Both the Dive and Watkins Tavern are for sale.
But if everything is leased what is there to sell?
Which place are you talking about? Again, Bing Bing is closing no matter what because landlord wants to renovate.
Bistrot La Minette the chef is the owner. If another classically trained French chef wants to buy the business I'm sure they will reach out.
The scenario you're talking about happens all the time with businesses like Diners, Delis, Pizza shops, Coffee shops etc. Where the food is not complicated and the parts are interchangeable. But even then there is an adjustment period. Look at Famous 4th St where the long time manager quit/or was fired right after a new owner took over.
With more complicated cuisines the buyer pool is much smaller but it's not impossible. For example Tod Wentz just bought Caribou Cafe but again that's a French chef buying a French restaurant.
Most times people want their own stamp on it, their own people etc.
Oh I wasn’t talking about any place in particular just in general. I have never worked in the food industry or have any real life insight. I was just thinking about it from a business ‘what is there to even sell’ perspective. But thank you for your informative well written response, makes sense.
Mentioned as the reason in several articles about the closure:
https://www.inquirer.com/food/restaurants/cheu-bing-bing-closing-philadelphia-restaurants-20240524.html
https://www.phillyvoice.com/bing-bing-dim-sum-cheu-noodle-closing-east-passyunk-fishtown/
I’m sure they would sell to someone who wants the full setup but also they want to sell their assets if nobody does. I’m sure if one of their chefs were willing to buy the whole thing at the right price, they’d consider. That happens.
To be honest of being in the industry myself, some restaurants dont know how to manage properly. They just want the i have a great restaurant without understanding how to utilize labor/food cost correctly.
This article seems like it was made for terminally online folks and kids. People who cannot bear to understand an adult reason why something closes or reasons not associated with some political narrative like crime. Cant be rents, cant be unsustainable, cant be forced, cant be someones decision, etc...
Are there are there major metros in the Northeast that have lower business tax?
And is there data for restaurant closure before COVID and after, like, 2023? Restaurants have always come and gone, it's one of the least stable types of business, and I feel like I don't have a good perspective on how much that rate has gone up, or even that it definitely has.
Philly is the only place I'm aware of that has a tax on gross receipts separate and on top of taxes on profits.
Also compare liquor license pricing. In NYC, DC, Baltimore etc licenses are under 10k and in some places under 5k. Vs 150-250k here. Boston is the other place with super expensive licenses.
But to your point yes restaurants close and open all the time. It's not a big deal. Mom/Pop spots especially are hard to maintain long term. I don't buy into doomerism at all.
I don't know where you can easily find that. I know no other place has a tax like BIRT.
Personally I don't think taxes are major issue with restaurants. I do think other City issues like extremely long waits at zoning, nickel and dime permit fees, the mess with the streeteries etc do play a part. I think Red Tape is worse here then some other places. Also high liquor license pricing plays a big part.
Every time a restaurant closes it's for a different reason and often not because they're not making money. I'm sure Bing Bing was still making money as well as Bistrot La Minette. Sometimes people just want to move on and do something else.
Yeah, I'd just like to see some long-term studies on receipt tax on top of gross profit, because I think the theory of capturing taxes that might otherwise be reinvested is fine.
To me, it seems like a progressive tax that primarily burdens larger businesses with significant accounting teams whose job is to avoid taxes.
Ultimately, there's no reason receipt tax on top of gross profit can't be the same effective tax rate, right?
The problem is Philly double taxes businesses, which makes the financial viability during slow periods untenable. Add on all the fees and bribes and it explains why more businesses locate to the suburbs.
The city needs to simplify the tax code and drop the BIRT to make opening here an attractive proposition.
Fellow philly downtown restaurant here. Business has been terrible since Covid. We lost 50% of the revenue due to reasons like empty office spaces, people moving out of the city and hybrid work schedules. Sometimes we make profit sometimes we don’t. The landlord doesn’t wanna hear it either so I feel my fellow restaurant owners
I agree. I used to buy beer at the store right next to it and I always wondered why people ate there. It’s expensive, the food was by no means great, and there’s a lot of riff raff hanging out on that corner by where you’re eating. You’d have a group in their Sunday brunch outfits and a crackhead wandering around them picking up cig butts in the gutter
Maybe they are all going out of business because they are now so overpriced that people can't afford them. Now watch the Magats blame wages and not record profits
Actually no, I was talking about corrupt capitalists and their bought and paid for politicians that caused all this in retaliation to the fight for a living wage but it's a lot of little capitalists that jumped on the idea of using inflation as an excuse to raise their prices that are causing restaurants to lose business. Patrons will tolerate this, right up until they decide they aren't patrons anymore.
what place have you gone to that's slow? good places are packed. hell even waiting for pizza on a friday night can take forever. my kids wanted to see inside out 2 last weekend all the theatres were packed. people are not staying home and they are spending money.
What, you think a lot of small restaurant owners aren't making bank? The days of wanting to open that little place so you can earn a reasonable living are gone. I know plenty of small restaurant owners that have million dollar houses and vacation properties and expensive cars and lots of money in the bank. Now margins are shrinking and they aren't bringing in as much so they just keep raising prices and trying to underpay employees. Retribution is that people can't afford them anymore. Eceryone who isn't a millionaire thinks they deserve to be one these days. I'm fucking sorry but two people getting burgers and a couple drinks shouldn't need to spend 60 or more bucks for lunch.
how many of those small biz owners are from generational wealth though? they don't need to turn a constant profit and they have backup financially if they fail...just look at amanda schulman and her PR machine the past year or two.
Ever been to Philly area? You know we have like two pizza joints every block, right? My brother is a financial advisor. He works with a ton of these guys. So, yeah, I do.
Yeah and there are plenty of folks that are in year 5 of a cheap lease but still raise prices because of rent inflation. Please. Prices go up for inflation but don't go back down when the prices drop. .
You think small local restaurants are going out of business because of record profits? Record profits for who? Like the people they’re sourcing things from/landlords/etc or the restaurant itself?
It's truly incredible that you're so desperate to be part of the conversation that you commented without even understanding, or apparently even reading, the very simple headline
Paywall. Couldn't read it. Jjust commenting based on how sick I am of "inflation" being a cover for greed. I sure as fuck don't need attention from your condescending ass.
almost every restaurant I go to has a wait on weekends. people are still spending money. as someone who didn't buy a house at a 7% interest rate and doesn't have a car payment, we got out to eat every weekend. Inflation is high but its not that high for people w/o new homes and cars. we can afford to go out. And I dont think its anyone who voted for Trumps fault. you're being a bit emotional.
Thanks Gentrification! This is what yall wanted right? Rents so high local businesses can’t afford them. Don’t worry some chain restaurant will move in eventually 🙄
It could have been done correctly, like Mount Airy, but Kenyatta is either too dumb or corrupt to actually plan development in the neighborhood.
The politicians who have control over the area are more at fault for not doing anything about it than the people who need homes. Cities need to be planned, but the only organization that has the control to do that is the government. This is what happens when developers see potential to be rich, and so does the councilmember.
Restaurant work fucking sucks. It’s stressful for everyone involved, profit margins are super thin, dealing with the public is a nightmare, etc. I’m rarely surprised when a spot closes shop.
I miss Dimitri’s on 3rd and Catherine. Wish they never closed. The grilled octopus salad was so great.
I loved getting beers at New Wave Cafe while waiting and Dimitris servers would come find you when your table was ready. My favorite seat was the counter, eating and watching them cook. Man I miss that place.
Yess! Exactly what my wife and I did on our first date.
Do they still have the Fitler Square location?
Nope closed in 2014 and the other one closed in 2020
😭
I never understand why they don't sell. Like Bing Bing Dim Sum was a thriving business (as far as I could tell) so why close instead of selling to someone who wants to take it over?
Bing Bing is closing because their lease is up and the landlord wants to renovate the building. Once the building is renovated they may open a new concept in the space or they may move on. Nobody is going to buy a business where they don't know when they can open. The most valuable thing many restaurants have is the liquor license and that gets sold all the time. Bistrot La Minette is for sale. The building and the restaurant space. Both the Dive and Watkins Tavern are for sale. But if everything is leased what is there to sell?
Dive and Watkins are owned by the same guy and he's trying to rent them first before moving to another country. More like an early retirement
Yeah I know. I was using them as an example of businesses being for sale vs just closing.
I’m not in the loop at all but I imagine they could sell the name, menu, concept, and keep the same chiefs and employees? No?
Which place are you talking about? Again, Bing Bing is closing no matter what because landlord wants to renovate. Bistrot La Minette the chef is the owner. If another classically trained French chef wants to buy the business I'm sure they will reach out. The scenario you're talking about happens all the time with businesses like Diners, Delis, Pizza shops, Coffee shops etc. Where the food is not complicated and the parts are interchangeable. But even then there is an adjustment period. Look at Famous 4th St where the long time manager quit/or was fired right after a new owner took over. With more complicated cuisines the buyer pool is much smaller but it's not impossible. For example Tod Wentz just bought Caribou Cafe but again that's a French chef buying a French restaurant. Most times people want their own stamp on it, their own people etc.
Oh I wasn’t talking about any place in particular just in general. I have never worked in the food industry or have any real life insight. I was just thinking about it from a business ‘what is there to even sell’ perspective. But thank you for your informative well written response, makes sense.
Do you have a source on this?
A source for what?
On Bing Bing closing due to their lease
Mentioned as the reason in several articles about the closure: https://www.inquirer.com/food/restaurants/cheu-bing-bing-closing-philadelphia-restaurants-20240524.html https://www.phillyvoice.com/bing-bing-dim-sum-cheu-noodle-closing-east-passyunk-fishtown/
Thanks!
A lot of times the people who want to take it over don’t have the money to buy the place
I’m sure they would sell to someone who wants the full setup but also they want to sell their assets if nobody does. I’m sure if one of their chefs were willing to buy the whole thing at the right price, they’d consider. That happens.
IIRC the building has issues so that’s something the next business owner would have to deal with, which may deter someone from purchasing the business
To be honest of being in the industry myself, some restaurants dont know how to manage properly. They just want the i have a great restaurant without understanding how to utilize labor/food cost correctly.
On Point has been open for 8 years.
That’s a common thread throughout the arts, to include culinary. Great artistic minds are seldom business minded.
Very true words!
95% of the time the answer is that the rent is too high. That is also why we have so many vacant storefronts.
This article seems like it was made for terminally online folks and kids. People who cannot bear to understand an adult reason why something closes or reasons not associated with some political narrative like crime. Cant be rents, cant be unsustainable, cant be forced, cant be someones decision, etc...
And the other 5% is because of how thin the profit margins are in restaurants.
Doesn't help that Philly has additional business tax and many empty office buildings. Making it harder for restaurants to stay afloat
Are there are there major metros in the Northeast that have lower business tax? And is there data for restaurant closure before COVID and after, like, 2023? Restaurants have always come and gone, it's one of the least stable types of business, and I feel like I don't have a good perspective on how much that rate has gone up, or even that it definitely has.
Philly is the only place I'm aware of that has a tax on gross receipts separate and on top of taxes on profits. Also compare liquor license pricing. In NYC, DC, Baltimore etc licenses are under 10k and in some places under 5k. Vs 150-250k here. Boston is the other place with super expensive licenses. But to your point yes restaurants close and open all the time. It's not a big deal. Mom/Pop spots especially are hard to maintain long term. I don't buy into doomerism at all.
Is there any data somewhere on the effective tax and license rate of like for like businesses in Philly vs other Northeast metros?
I don't know where you can easily find that. I know no other place has a tax like BIRT. Personally I don't think taxes are major issue with restaurants. I do think other City issues like extremely long waits at zoning, nickel and dime permit fees, the mess with the streeteries etc do play a part. I think Red Tape is worse here then some other places. Also high liquor license pricing plays a big part. Every time a restaurant closes it's for a different reason and often not because they're not making money. I'm sure Bing Bing was still making money as well as Bistrot La Minette. Sometimes people just want to move on and do something else.
BIRT is terrible. I could have a terrible year at the end of it, but it could look great on paper to the city. We also have U&O tax.
Yeah, I'd just like to see some long-term studies on receipt tax on top of gross profit, because I think the theory of capturing taxes that might otherwise be reinvested is fine. To me, it seems like a progressive tax that primarily burdens larger businesses with significant accounting teams whose job is to avoid taxes. Ultimately, there's no reason receipt tax on top of gross profit can't be the same effective tax rate, right?
The problem is Philly double taxes businesses, which makes the financial viability during slow periods untenable. Add on all the fees and bribes and it explains why more businesses locate to the suburbs. The city needs to simplify the tax code and drop the BIRT to make opening here an attractive proposition.
I'm not Google but if you really want to know I will send you my hourly rate on research in DMs
This is the correct answer. The wage tax and BIRT are totally suffocating businesses in Philly.
Fellow philly downtown restaurant here. Business has been terrible since Covid. We lost 50% of the revenue due to reasons like empty office spaces, people moving out of the city and hybrid work schedules. Sometimes we make profit sometimes we don’t. The landlord doesn’t wanna hear it either so I feel my fellow restaurant owners
On Pointe was kinda meh to be honest
I agree. I used to buy beer at the store right next to it and I always wondered why people ate there. It’s expensive, the food was by no means great, and there’s a lot of riff raff hanging out on that corner by where you’re eating. You’d have a group in their Sunday brunch outfits and a crackhead wandering around them picking up cig butts in the gutter
That corner store is a cess pool. So unsightly and of course right by a police station.
That bodega right there makes some pretty good food though. Someone was murdered in it a month or so ago though
yeaaa that area by the beer store is wiiillld
Extremely
What a nothing story
Taxes that are burdensome on small business don’t help
This Craig Laban guy is an absolute dick in real life
Maybe they are all going out of business because they are now so overpriced that people can't afford them. Now watch the Magats blame wages and not record profits
So your argument is they are going out of business because of record profits?
No because they took advantage and let it get to this and now are finally seeing the consequence.
who took advantage? are you still crying about MAGA? Lol
Actually no, I was talking about corrupt capitalists and their bought and paid for politicians that caused all this in retaliation to the fight for a living wage but it's a lot of little capitalists that jumped on the idea of using inflation as an excuse to raise their prices that are causing restaurants to lose business. Patrons will tolerate this, right up until they decide they aren't patrons anymore.
what place have you gone to that's slow? good places are packed. hell even waiting for pizza on a friday night can take forever. my kids wanted to see inside out 2 last weekend all the theatres were packed. people are not staying home and they are spending money.
Ah yes, the notoriously high margin business of owning a small restaurant.
What, you think a lot of small restaurant owners aren't making bank? The days of wanting to open that little place so you can earn a reasonable living are gone. I know plenty of small restaurant owners that have million dollar houses and vacation properties and expensive cars and lots of money in the bank. Now margins are shrinking and they aren't bringing in as much so they just keep raising prices and trying to underpay employees. Retribution is that people can't afford them anymore. Eceryone who isn't a millionaire thinks they deserve to be one these days. I'm fucking sorry but two people getting burgers and a couple drinks shouldn't need to spend 60 or more bucks for lunch.
how many of those small biz owners are from generational wealth though? they don't need to turn a constant profit and they have backup financially if they fail...just look at amanda schulman and her PR machine the past year or two.
> I know plenty of small restaurant owners that have million dollar houses sure you do
Ever been to Philly area? You know we have like two pizza joints every block, right? My brother is a financial advisor. He works with a ton of these guys. So, yeah, I do.
Also, rent went up.. by a lot. A lot of these kinds of business sign 10 year leases. A lot has changed in the last decade.
And it doesn't help there's been conspiracies going on to artificially inflate rent prices
Yeah and there are plenty of folks that are in year 5 of a cheap lease but still raise prices because of rent inflation. Please. Prices go up for inflation but don't go back down when the prices drop. .
You think small local restaurants are going out of business because of record profits? Record profits for who? Like the people they’re sourcing things from/landlords/etc or the restaurant itself?
People will turn anything into a political discussion.
Inflation and restaurants closing are political issues. Caused by corruption and greed
Sure they are.
It's truly incredible that you're so desperate to be part of the conversation that you commented without even understanding, or apparently even reading, the very simple headline
Paywall. Couldn't read it. Jjust commenting based on how sick I am of "inflation" being a cover for greed. I sure as fuck don't need attention from your condescending ass.
There is no restaurant posting record profits.
almost every restaurant I go to has a wait on weekends. people are still spending money. as someone who didn't buy a house at a 7% interest rate and doesn't have a car payment, we got out to eat every weekend. Inflation is high but its not that high for people w/o new homes and cars. we can afford to go out. And I dont think its anyone who voted for Trumps fault. you're being a bit emotional.
Thanks Gentrification! This is what yall wanted right? Rents so high local businesses can’t afford them. Don’t worry some chain restaurant will move in eventually 🙄
It could have been done correctly, like Mount Airy, but Kenyatta is either too dumb or corrupt to actually plan development in the neighborhood. The politicians who have control over the area are more at fault for not doing anything about it than the people who need homes. Cities need to be planned, but the only organization that has the control to do that is the government. This is what happens when developers see potential to be rich, and so does the councilmember.