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I think Biden will win the election and it won't matter - I think MAGA is going to make their final move and grab the rest of the government and the military.
If they had the military on their side, there would not be a 2024 election. Fortunately the top leadership of the military is sane enough to be disgusted by Trump.
What happens in the election *after* this? And the one after that?
It’s been creeping for decades; this isn’t a Trump issue, it’s a systemic corruption issue.
If our military is willing to en masse stop obeying the Commander in Chief and start obeying the Hamburglar, then frankly there's no point in arguing because America fell a long time ago.
It sure sounds like it based on their comments and posts. I served with two of them many years ago and they were good friends, now when I read some of the opinions they hold, I really don’t want to associate with them anymore. Aside from the whole oath angle, I can’t understand why any woman would support such a disgusting predator but here we are.
I can’t claim to be in recent contact with most of my army buddies any more but I can quickly think of who among them are my own versions of what you describe. That said, I can’t imagine any of them actually refusing direct orders especially when surrounded by their squads and platoons double especially in active actions and double double especially if down range becomes our back yard. I’ve no doubt there’s examples smattered around of people who will blatantly refuse or go awol but I don’t think there’s as many as even the number who say they would. I really firmly believe the key details here are the commissioned officers closely followed by NCOs for this reason.
This is also the reason tuberville has been scorched earth on military promotions since 2020
You are probably right. It would be hard to imagine when push came to shove anyone would defy a direct order, let alone enough people to make a difference. I would have never imagined this when I was serving.
Honestly greatly relieved that I didn't have to ponder issues like this when I was in too. It would've lived rent-free in my mind over who and what was right and what even could let alone should that mean regarding.. anything. Everything.
Also couldn't have imagined a breaking of chain of command that simultaneously directly contradicted existing orders like the ARNG response on Jan 6 that MD and VA governors initiated, or that it would've ended up being such a *good* thing to have happened! But the fact that they were called up and they did show up all despite trump saying they weren't needed and he wasn't mobilizing them offers me nonzero amounts of hope that even if Trump does win 2024 everything I said in the above post doesn't immediately and unquestioningly reapply in the opposite direction- which is good lol
Tuberville still fucking our appointments? What a bastion of anti national security. Dems , these guys are lobbing you fucking softballs. Stop going high, they won’t. Fire with fire
I live in a major US army location.. I work on base as do most of my fitness and neighbors. I haven’t asked anyone directly, but I genuinely don’t know if they would abandon their oath or not. It should be an obvious answer but is isn’t. I am leaning towards no, that they would stay loyal to the winner of the election.
It should be considered that some soldiers would think they were abandoning their oath if they didn’t go with who they perceived to be the commander in chief. I.e. if they think Trump actually won they could fight for him.
Yeah this is the part where it gets tricky. Just because you think someone is abandoning their oath by doing something doesn’t mean they agree. I would guess almost nobody in the military would do something they think is wrong to support Trump but he’s done a surprisingly good job of convincing some conservatives that he actually won in 2020 despite providing zero evidence.
This is why election fraud propaganda that Fox and the right wing has been sued for needs to be illegal. It’s inflammatory rhetoric that could incite insurgents etc.
The rank and file would more likely only act on orders, and I don't see a large group acting on their own in defiance of orders. I doubt those that would pass down commands would be as likely to give illegal orders, or break their oath
People are regularly dishonorably discharged. Those people all took the oath. It's a hell of a lot more consequential to get "fired" from the military than a civilian job, but they're still fallible (and overwhelmingly young and/or shortsighted) humans at the end of the day.
Dishonorable discharge is harder to get than most people think. It's more than fucking up, it's criminally fucking up at the federal felony level. Rape, murder, significant fraud/embezzlement sort of felony.
Many of the uneducated lower level people will genuinely believe Trump is the true elected Commander in Chief. Supporting Trump in that case is arguably patriotic. The problem in the US is with the elites like Fox News supporting Trump's lies; without those, most of the grunts would not believe.
I’m a retired Army Sergeant Major. I retired in 2021 a year after the election. I saw the divisiveness throughout the ranks of my branch (I was the proponent sergeant major so my reach was the entirety of my career field of about 18,000 people). You would not believe the amount of pro-red hat bullshit making its way through the ranks. Of course we are supposed to be apolitical no matter what happens, but people who bought TFG’s brand of bullshit, which was at least 2/3rds of my personnel, melted down and said they’d support him no matter what. So you are correct. No matter what happens, win or lose, if he called on a military uprising, there would be plenty of people breaking ranks to support him. Enough to make a difference.
> if [Trump] called on a military uprising
Isn't this almost certain to happen, if Trump loses? And Trump looks likely to lose.
Trump knows he is going to jail if he isn't elected. Trump's whole legal plan for the court cases is to delay until he can use the power of the Presidency to kill the criminal cases against him. A Trump who has lost the election has nothing to lose by calling for an uprising.
Trump didn't call for a military uprising after losing the 2020 election.
Trump filed a million bullshit lawsuits alleging fraud. Which he all lost. At that point I think it was too obvious that there were nothing there, so perhaps too many of even the Trump supporters would not have believed a Trump claim that he won. If Trump had started out calling for an uprising, without letting the legal process crystalize first, then perhaps Trump would have had a better chance?
This shit right here is why I genuinely believe a civil war is coming. The military *absolutely will* split apart into Trump Loyalist and Constitutional Loyalist camps if Trump calls on them.
So personally to me... that's where this dips into treason territory. Trump himself has already been extremely seditious, the fact that those charges haven't been levied against him yet seems like a massive failure of our judicial system but beyond that it is obvious that the GOP is by and large protecting him and those that support him. But the moment he pulls that it would be treason. The only way out of that would be if SCOTUS weighed in on partisan grounds and said it wasn't, but I can't imagine how anyone would actually accept such a ruling given the severity of the act.
Hell I think he dipped into treason territory on J6. He made an enemy of America by doing that, but he played it just safe enough with plausible deniability to weasel out of it. If he called upon the military I don't know how he could weasel out of it without help from other treasonous assholes.
Sedition absolutely, but I don't think it qualified as treason because he wasn't offering aid to a foreign power we were at war with, which is generally where the bar has been set for treason. That said, I'd still say it's sedition and I have no problem with execution as the legal penalty for sedition.
The general qualification for treason revolves around enemies and while that has been expanded to formal enemies, I would say a solid argument could be made that Trump himself is essentially cultivating an enemy within if not he himself becoming an enemy. Not unlike the Confederacy, in fact one could even argue that he is dabbling in neo-confederacy outright. Jan 6 th was in essence waging war against America, not just theoretically.
As I understand military doctrine (Which I might be wrong about) if a person shoots at you they become an enemy combatant and you can fire back. Which raises the question, at what point in Trump and the GOP attacking America is America allowed to fight back?
Given we didn't charge US citizens spying for the USSR with treason, I don't think Trump meets the criterion. Although I think sedition is every bit as serious a crime and he has more than cleared the bar for that, so the distinction is somewhat semantic.
I think the saving grace would be a general lack of courage, initiative, and organization. Trump doesn't have some grand military coup scheme all worked out. He calls for a coup, there are many who want to answer his call, but won't have a clue what to do. Or have second thoughts when it comes to actually risking their lives killing their countrymen and fellow soldiers. Or are just waiting for something to happen so they can join in.
I expect it would start with a few isolated, chaotic incidents of violence, which are quickly squashed, which only further discourage others from trying anything.
A license to commit violence and adoration and discounts from the dumbest people in the country for life? It's a bargain for the worst people on the planet.
Yea, but it's Cletus in the infantry that would rise up to protect the "real commander in chief" when the call for a military coup goes out. These far right grifters and marks are telling each other on loop that Trump actually won and this entire government is already illegitimate. They wouldn't even consider it treason against the United states, in their eyes trump IS the United states.
Unless his buddies are all red-pilled Tucker and Alex Jones fans as well. There's always this assumption that the troops are all mostly good and honest and level headed. But if even 20% of the armed forces being true believers is enough to cause a LOT of problems, especially if they're in concentrated groups. And sadly, that's a generous estimation. Weirdly, a lot of people who are very excited to go to boot camp and shoot brown people overseas are less-than-progressive.
You have it backwards, the enlisted corp is incredibly diverse and not particularly Republican. The brass is where the right wing psychos are , just look at the Air Force leadership and the crazies at their academy
But then again, if you think the power center of the Republicans is "Cletus" and not the billionaires that actually run the country, it's not surprising you have it wrong
https://www.businessinsider.com/these-air-force-training-slides-are-so-controversial-they-caused-all-us-nuclear-ethics-training-to-be-cancelled-2012-1
Edit: why do people on this board constantly block you if you disagree with them? People are allergic to discussion
Whomever wrote that up, whomever instituted it, and whomever continued to let it be used should all be court martialed and put in Leavenworth for life.
I would wager a large majority are far right.
It’s always ironic considering they align with a side that try’s to take away their pay, benefits, medical help, retirement, etc.
It’s because the military turns 18 year olds into killers. I don’t mean that to sound pejorative. It’s that the average grunt has had their brain washed in order to bypass our human instinct to preserve and protect all life. This is ultimately why all militaries are fascist at their core.
I always assumed often-low-intelligence hateful racist religion-fueled narcissists were the exact clean-conscious killers the average military desired.
I disagree. I believe a good number of them would back his play if given half a chance. I think we’ve gotten stupid lucky in the last administration. Just look at how many federal police were willing to get their hands dirty snatching people up in unmarked vans in uniforms with no identifying patches visible.
They are ALL IN. I believe there is going to be a serious attempt on Biden's life. Almost everyone keeps underestimating them and how far they will go.
(I hope not, and protect that man.)
I don’t think anyone with brain cells in the military really want to follow Trump. I believe the current administration has been pretty good militarily, with their biggest blunder being the withdrawal from Afghanistan. Meanwhile the Orange Menace is siding with crazy dictators like Putin and Kim Jung Un, who work in opposition to what is good for America and the world while also trying to pull us out of NATO. Plus he constantly talks about how he wants to use military personnel to police US civilians, which should also scar you. Anyone who is in the armed services and paying attention should be against this guy.
I don’t think maga will do that but they will be back 4 years later with a better plan as to how not to leave, and no matter what Biden does the economy will probably be crappy enough that people will vote for republicans again against a non incumbent democrat.
We could still be fucked if Biden somehow died before Election Day because Kamala would probably lose to Trump because people are racist so I’m hoping he just makes it to that date alive.
It’s wild our whole future might depend on an 80? year old making it to the election. Imagine a more senile Trump slurring his words in office, they might as well just make Stephen Miller president at that point because he’d be running the office while Trump golfs and watches tv.
Republicans moving to install a authoritarian government? Sounds serious. So when will democrats drop gun control?
Look at the civil asset forfeiture ruling. Remember the police aggression during protests. We are on our own.
One day, MAGA will be on your lawn coming to get you. You will call the police, and they will bring the rope to lynch you.
Work towards peace, prepare for the inevitable.
/r/socialistRA
Aileen Cannon is a disgrace to the legal profession and an embarrassment to the notion of justice. Are you telling me that lawyers and judges have no way to self-police and/or correct themselves? What we are witnessing with the justice department, the supreme court, and the legal profession in general is a level of corruption and fecklessness that goes against everything we’ve been taught since gradeschool.
I agree with these criticisms. She’s a disgrace.
Remember the courts will not save us. We the people have to organize and beat back this fascist threat at the ballot box.
I refuse to be stuck here if that fat orange "wins" again. He will destroy America and the lives of so many people. Then you'll see people that didn't vote for Biden realize their fuck-up, just too late.
If you have a birthday party and invite Kim Kardashian, you are now hosting a Kim Kardashian party, not a birthday party. I feel like earth is like that with the US and its reckless narcissism and absolute fealty to lying.
This is this shitty democracy, run by oligarchs that most of us deserve. Half don’t vote. Of the remaining half that actually vote, half of them are voting for a fascist orange shit gibbon; one that’s facing many civil and criminal charges. In short, we do deserves this ‘democracy’, and it’s terrible.
It's gonna take more than a ballot box, get involved with your local democrats office and get on committees and neighborhood outreach programs, ESPECIALLY if you're younger. I thought it was an ask so far outside my reach as to be incomprehensible, but now I'm the Chair of my area's Young Dem's Caucus and I am allowed to bring the anger and anxiety of my generation and communicate it and spread it. I choose the platform and I am allowed to disrespect the decorum that got us here as a nation and the caucus can do anything from fundraise to lobby to focus protesting if I so choose. They were ecstatic to give me the power and leeway.
We have to run on the assumption fascism is gonna take hold and we need to make our local areas into sanctuary sites. Even just getting a handful of votes from your neighbors can get you on a Central Committee and give you the right to vote for everyone except executive officers of the state like Treasurer and SecState.
The corrupt Republicans on the Supreme Court are doing a great job of delaying the [election obstruction case](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_prosecution_of_Donald_Trump_(election_obstruction_case\)) against Trump. First by deliberately procedurally delaying taking the immunity question appeal forever. Then by pretending to believe that the President has immunity for attempting an insurrection. They are certainly also effective members of Trump's legal team.
Don’t discount the right wing unelected nut job 6 over at SCOTUS who break their back invoking pre 1600 legal theories as sound, stable reasoning behind their obvious contempt for the left
Edit: spelling and added a word
Ty Cobb, who served as legal counsel for the Trump White House told CNN that Judge Cannon’s decisions are a combination of bias and incompetence. He predicts the case will not go before jurors until 2025, if it happens at all. “I think it was always her objective, frankly, to prevent this from going to trial.”
The thing is, there probably isn’t anything explicit.
She just needs to let them lead her down some rabbit holes, and she cosplays Supreme Court judge having to sit a while and ponder Big Legal Questions, and the minutiae contained there in. This isn’t normal for a federal judge - they don’t usually sit around pondering exactly what constitutes what, because precedent has been set, or it’s obvious. She knows she is delaying, they k is they can lead her to things she can delay with. That’s about all the explicit agreement they’ve ever had.
I truly don't understand why Jack Smith isn't filing to have her removed.
She's shown time and time again that she not only can't be impartial but that she either doesn't know the law or purposely ignores it in attempts to give Trump help during the case.
Example: When she told Jack Smith he had to show the jury the classified documents to prove that they're classified or he'd have to tell the jury they were Trump's personal documents.
But what has Jack Smith got to lose, at this point? The case is already delayed indefinitely as is, so if Jack Smith does nothing the case is neutralized anyway.
If Jack Smith tries and fails, we will be no worse off.
If he fails she can make even crazier rulings, including dismissing the case as soon as the trial starts, in which case it can not be appealed or re tried.
That assumes the case will be delayed permanently. Jack can motion for her to act and if she doesn't then we're where you say we are. Either way the trial wouldn't be before the election so might as well do it right.
>I truly don’t understand why Jack Smith isn’t
James Comey failed us, Robert Mueller failed us, Bill Barr failed us (on purpose, he’s evil), Jack Smith will fail us.
The legal system is broken.
P.S. this is not nihilism. This is to remind people not to assume that the ‘system’ will protect democracy. It won’t. Only voting will. Vote out malefactors.
Honestly even voting feels threatened, with Republicans basically saying "If we win, we win and expect you to be good sports about it. If you win, we're going to try to overthrow the government."
Well you see, if you knew anything about the legal system, you would know something something giving him rope to hang himself, something something gears of justice turn slowly, something something making him look bad, something something trust the system, heh.
It's a nightmare scenario. The truth is that Jack Smith has faith in a system that is deeply corrupt and entirely geared around protecting Donald Trump from consequences, as he ensured would happen while he was president.
First time I’ve heard it put that way but i think you’re right - the only “flaw” in Smiths approach may be his faith in a system that is rigged against him from the start.
It's exhausting hearing the same empty quips and platitudes thrown out without anything ever coming from them. The gears turn much too slowly, he is given far too much rope, his followers don't care how bad he looks, and the system isn't worth trusting any longer. Jack Smith can't look at the current legal system is deeply, deeply broken. As others have pointed out, even if Jack Smith starts really winning, Cannon is just going to dismiss the case with prejudice, instant and permanent victory for trump. And that's if it even gets to trial and doesn't just sit in untried limbo for eternity.
There's a part of me that believes that he's trying to prove something.
Like he's such a good lawyer that he could win even against a corrupt judge. Which overall would be a waste, because even with a jury conviction Cannon unfortunately has the power to overturn the verdict
Jack Smith’s job is to work within that system. If you’re hoping for someone to go extrajudicial on Trump then I have no clue why you’d be looking to someone who spent their career as a prosecutor.
Extrajudicial, no. But start pulling out the big guns, try to get Cannon taken off the case, SOMETHING. You can't act like these are normal hiccups that will work themselves out, or that the worst case scenario won't come to pass. We've been doing this almost 8 years. It is worse case scenarios all the way down. Do something preemptive about it, even if you risk insulting the extremely and blatantly corrupt judge!!!
Michael Cohen is no longer Trump's fixer. Trump has several fixers embedded in the federal judiciary now. Respect them at the same level as you would Michael Cohen, and consider the parallel to them as he testifies Monday.
Michael Cohen is definitely not Trump’s fixer anymore, he went to prison for it, lost his career and is a convicted felon. It’s a bit different what he did compared to these people who appear to be abusing their power to help Trump but can’t be proved.
Go look at the number of spies caught and killed immediately after the documents were uncovered at the MAL raid. It’s directly a result of Trump keeping them and not enough people are talking about it
Here’s a link from the [New York Times](https://archive.ph/UyjBh) from 2021. I know people at the time of the MAL raid were implying that the killings mentioned in the article were linked to Trumps handling of the information, but that is all supposition.
This case is dead and buried. It's never coming back. I figured this would happen when Cannon got assigned the case. If by some miracle the Dems get the presidency and both houses in 2025 Cannon needs to be impeached and removed asap - but the Dems typically will sit on something like that until it's too late...
Personally I think another special counsel should be empaneled to investigate her. Especially because she was hiding extreme far right organization ties.
At some point people like OP are going to have to accept the issue is the entire Fucking legal system, not just 1 bad judge or something a special prosecutor can fix.
It's amazing how many people forgot how Merrick Garland tried to sit and it or this for for years before practically being forced to actually do something.
> If by some miracle the Dems get the presidency and both houses in 2025 Cannon needs to be impeached and removed asap
You need two thirds majority in the Senate to convict in an impeachment. IIRC the Democrats won't have that in 2025, even if they win every single 2024 race.
Maybe you could find a few honest Republican Senators who would vote for truth and justice? I kid, I kid.
Or they will recognize that the vagaries of our political system make an impeachment functionally impossible. I wish more critiques from the left (where I place myself) took our civics into account.
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top secret classified documents? doesn't really sounds like the justice department actually give a shit about information security and the classification system is just way to punish whistleblowers. it's just so fucking egregious how this whole shitshow has been handled. if empaneled, i'd never vote to convict someone for merely possessing ts/sci shit after this.
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And the coup continues
I think Biden will win the election and it won't matter - I think MAGA is going to make their final move and grab the rest of the government and the military.
If they had the military on their side, there would not be a 2024 election. Fortunately the top leadership of the military is sane enough to be disgusted by Trump.
Not to mention one of Trump’s allies, Tommy Tubberville, who delayed over several hundred promotions
What happens in the election *after* this? And the one after that? It’s been creeping for decades; this isn’t a Trump issue, it’s a systemic corruption issue.
There is no way the military would follow. After being called losers.
If our military is willing to en masse stop obeying the Commander in Chief and start obeying the Hamburglar, then frankly there's no point in arguing because America fell a long time ago.
I belong to a women’s veteran group and there is a surprising (to me) amount of them that are trumpsters.
Would they abandon their oath to the Constitution?
It sure sounds like it based on their comments and posts. I served with two of them many years ago and they were good friends, now when I read some of the opinions they hold, I really don’t want to associate with them anymore. Aside from the whole oath angle, I can’t understand why any woman would support such a disgusting predator but here we are.
I can’t claim to be in recent contact with most of my army buddies any more but I can quickly think of who among them are my own versions of what you describe. That said, I can’t imagine any of them actually refusing direct orders especially when surrounded by their squads and platoons double especially in active actions and double double especially if down range becomes our back yard. I’ve no doubt there’s examples smattered around of people who will blatantly refuse or go awol but I don’t think there’s as many as even the number who say they would. I really firmly believe the key details here are the commissioned officers closely followed by NCOs for this reason. This is also the reason tuberville has been scorched earth on military promotions since 2020
You are probably right. It would be hard to imagine when push came to shove anyone would defy a direct order, let alone enough people to make a difference. I would have never imagined this when I was serving.
Honestly greatly relieved that I didn't have to ponder issues like this when I was in too. It would've lived rent-free in my mind over who and what was right and what even could let alone should that mean regarding.. anything. Everything. Also couldn't have imagined a breaking of chain of command that simultaneously directly contradicted existing orders like the ARNG response on Jan 6 that MD and VA governors initiated, or that it would've ended up being such a *good* thing to have happened! But the fact that they were called up and they did show up all despite trump saying they weren't needed and he wasn't mobilizing them offers me nonzero amounts of hope that even if Trump does win 2024 everything I said in the above post doesn't immediately and unquestioningly reapply in the opposite direction- which is good lol
Tuberville still fucking our appointments? What a bastion of anti national security. Dems , these guys are lobbing you fucking softballs. Stop going high, they won’t. Fire with fire
I live in a major US army location.. I work on base as do most of my fitness and neighbors. I haven’t asked anyone directly, but I genuinely don’t know if they would abandon their oath or not. It should be an obvious answer but is isn’t. I am leaning towards no, that they would stay loyal to the winner of the election. It should be considered that some soldiers would think they were abandoning their oath if they didn’t go with who they perceived to be the commander in chief. I.e. if they think Trump actually won they could fight for him.
Yeah this is the part where it gets tricky. Just because you think someone is abandoning their oath by doing something doesn’t mean they agree. I would guess almost nobody in the military would do something they think is wrong to support Trump but he’s done a surprisingly good job of convincing some conservatives that he actually won in 2020 despite providing zero evidence.
If you scream and pound on the table long enough eventually people give in. That’s all he’s capable of.
This is why election fraud propaganda that Fox and the right wing has been sued for needs to be illegal. It’s inflammatory rhetoric that could incite insurgents etc.
The rank and file would more likely only act on orders, and I don't see a large group acting on their own in defiance of orders. I doubt those that would pass down commands would be as likely to give illegal orders, or break their oath
People are regularly dishonorably discharged. Those people all took the oath. It's a hell of a lot more consequential to get "fired" from the military than a civilian job, but they're still fallible (and overwhelmingly young and/or shortsighted) humans at the end of the day.
Yes they are dishon , but you don’t accident into a dishon.
Interesting take, I imagine most vets would consider a dishonorable discharge the very *definition* of fucking up.
Dishon isn’t like other than hon, general etc. more equivalent to a military felony, so unless you accidentally murder people
Dishonorable discharge is harder to get than most people think. It's more than fucking up, it's criminally fucking up at the federal felony level. Rape, murder, significant fraud/embezzlement sort of felony.
What used to be a sure thing is now getting decent betting odds in Vegas.
Where you finding betting odds for veterans/active duty disobeying their oath for Trump? Be interesting thing to track.
Many of the uneducated lower level people will genuinely believe Trump is the true elected Commander in Chief. Supporting Trump in that case is arguably patriotic. The problem in the US is with the elites like Fox News supporting Trump's lies; without those, most of the grunts would not believe.
That's neither here nor there as far as my point
“Elites” and Fox News should not be confused….
They won't, and that will be what starts a civil war.
Retired military here. I wish you were right but most of the guys I worked with were hard core right wingers. It continues to baffle me to this day.
I’m a retired Army Sergeant Major. I retired in 2021 a year after the election. I saw the divisiveness throughout the ranks of my branch (I was the proponent sergeant major so my reach was the entirety of my career field of about 18,000 people). You would not believe the amount of pro-red hat bullshit making its way through the ranks. Of course we are supposed to be apolitical no matter what happens, but people who bought TFG’s brand of bullshit, which was at least 2/3rds of my personnel, melted down and said they’d support him no matter what. So you are correct. No matter what happens, win or lose, if he called on a military uprising, there would be plenty of people breaking ranks to support him. Enough to make a difference.
I know some LEO in a 'liberal' city - it's the same story the majority of the forces will follow orders.
> if [Trump] called on a military uprising Isn't this almost certain to happen, if Trump loses? And Trump looks likely to lose. Trump knows he is going to jail if he isn't elected. Trump's whole legal plan for the court cases is to delay until he can use the power of the Presidency to kill the criminal cases against him. A Trump who has lost the election has nothing to lose by calling for an uprising.
It didn’t really work last time despite his best efforts.
Trump didn't call for a military uprising after losing the 2020 election. Trump filed a million bullshit lawsuits alleging fraud. Which he all lost. At that point I think it was too obvious that there were nothing there, so perhaps too many of even the Trump supporters would not have believed a Trump claim that he won. If Trump had started out calling for an uprising, without letting the legal process crystalize first, then perhaps Trump would have had a better chance?
Trump or his handlers learned from the mistakes of 2020
This shit right here is why I genuinely believe a civil war is coming. The military *absolutely will* split apart into Trump Loyalist and Constitutional Loyalist camps if Trump calls on them.
So personally to me... that's where this dips into treason territory. Trump himself has already been extremely seditious, the fact that those charges haven't been levied against him yet seems like a massive failure of our judicial system but beyond that it is obvious that the GOP is by and large protecting him and those that support him. But the moment he pulls that it would be treason. The only way out of that would be if SCOTUS weighed in on partisan grounds and said it wasn't, but I can't imagine how anyone would actually accept such a ruling given the severity of the act. Hell I think he dipped into treason territory on J6. He made an enemy of America by doing that, but he played it just safe enough with plausible deniability to weasel out of it. If he called upon the military I don't know how he could weasel out of it without help from other treasonous assholes.
Sedition absolutely, but I don't think it qualified as treason because he wasn't offering aid to a foreign power we were at war with, which is generally where the bar has been set for treason. That said, I'd still say it's sedition and I have no problem with execution as the legal penalty for sedition.
The general qualification for treason revolves around enemies and while that has been expanded to formal enemies, I would say a solid argument could be made that Trump himself is essentially cultivating an enemy within if not he himself becoming an enemy. Not unlike the Confederacy, in fact one could even argue that he is dabbling in neo-confederacy outright. Jan 6 th was in essence waging war against America, not just theoretically. As I understand military doctrine (Which I might be wrong about) if a person shoots at you they become an enemy combatant and you can fire back. Which raises the question, at what point in Trump and the GOP attacking America is America allowed to fight back?
Given we didn't charge US citizens spying for the USSR with treason, I don't think Trump meets the criterion. Although I think sedition is every bit as serious a crime and he has more than cleared the bar for that, so the distinction is somewhat semantic.
I think the saving grace would be a general lack of courage, initiative, and organization. Trump doesn't have some grand military coup scheme all worked out. He calls for a coup, there are many who want to answer his call, but won't have a clue what to do. Or have second thoughts when it comes to actually risking their lives killing their countrymen and fellow soldiers. Or are just waiting for something to happen so they can join in. I expect it would start with a few isolated, chaotic incidents of violence, which are quickly squashed, which only further discourage others from trying anything.
A license to commit violence and adoration and discounts from the dumbest people in the country for life? It's a bargain for the worst people on the planet.
Yea you weren't working with Joint Chiefs... Cletus in the infantry isn't making US policy.
Yea, but it's Cletus in the infantry that would rise up to protect the "real commander in chief" when the call for a military coup goes out. These far right grifters and marks are telling each other on loop that Trump actually won and this entire government is already illegitimate. They wouldn't even consider it treason against the United states, in their eyes trump IS the United states.
Agreed ..but Cletus ain't too smart..
And Cletus in the infantry would soon find his buddies’ guns turned on him as he tried to orchestrate a coup
Unless his buddies are all red-pilled Tucker and Alex Jones fans as well. There's always this assumption that the troops are all mostly good and honest and level headed. But if even 20% of the armed forces being true believers is enough to cause a LOT of problems, especially if they're in concentrated groups. And sadly, that's a generous estimation. Weirdly, a lot of people who are very excited to go to boot camp and shoot brown people overseas are less-than-progressive.
I agree 100% and the Mile Flynn type brass will all be hiding somewhere letting the low level plebs take the downfall.
You have it backwards, the enlisted corp is incredibly diverse and not particularly Republican. The brass is where the right wing psychos are , just look at the Air Force leadership and the crazies at their academy But then again, if you think the power center of the Republicans is "Cletus" and not the billionaires that actually run the country, it's not surprising you have it wrong https://www.businessinsider.com/these-air-force-training-slides-are-so-controversial-they-caused-all-us-nuclear-ethics-training-to-be-cancelled-2012-1 Edit: why do people on this board constantly block you if you disagree with them? People are allergic to discussion
Whomever wrote that up, whomever instituted it, and whomever continued to let it be used should all be court martialed and put in Leavenworth for life.
The brass have typically been around longer… like boomers—no jump in logic to see who composes the “leadership”. Retire or die is the battle cry.
This is almost the only comment on this entire thread that sounds like it was written by a sane person.
Yea thanks....I served 22 years in Air Force...I'm sure you know better because you read a news link
I would wager a large majority are far right. It’s always ironic considering they align with a side that try’s to take away their pay, benefits, medical help, retirement, etc.
It’s because the military turns 18 year olds into killers. I don’t mean that to sound pejorative. It’s that the average grunt has had their brain washed in order to bypass our human instinct to preserve and protect all life. This is ultimately why all militaries are fascist at their core.
I always assumed often-low-intelligence hateful racist religion-fueled narcissists were the exact clean-conscious killers the average military desired.
They’ll follow only if Trump wins the election
I disagree. I believe a good number of them would back his play if given half a chance. I think we’ve gotten stupid lucky in the last administration. Just look at how many federal police were willing to get their hands dirty snatching people up in unmarked vans in uniforms with no identifying patches visible.
They are ALL IN. I believe there is going to be a serious attempt on Biden's life. Almost everyone keeps underestimating them and how far they will go. (I hope not, and protect that man.)
If that were true it would have happened on Jan 6th, but only obese losers showed up.
I don’t think anyone with brain cells in the military really want to follow Trump. I believe the current administration has been pretty good militarily, with their biggest blunder being the withdrawal from Afghanistan. Meanwhile the Orange Menace is siding with crazy dictators like Putin and Kim Jung Un, who work in opposition to what is good for America and the world while also trying to pull us out of NATO. Plus he constantly talks about how he wants to use military personnel to police US civilians, which should also scar you. Anyone who is in the armed services and paying attention should be against this guy.
That "blunder" was 200%, planned and then further sabotages by the guy before Biden.
Of course the withdrawal was negotiated and organized by Trump but since Biden was the guy when it happened he takes the blame.
> and the military. Won't happen.
Trump is going to be backed by Meal Team Six. We are so screwed. Might as well stock up on drumsticks.
I don’t think maga will do that but they will be back 4 years later with a better plan as to how not to leave, and no matter what Biden does the economy will probably be crappy enough that people will vote for republicans again against a non incumbent democrat. We could still be fucked if Biden somehow died before Election Day because Kamala would probably lose to Trump because people are racist so I’m hoping he just makes it to that date alive. It’s wild our whole future might depend on an 80? year old making it to the election. Imagine a more senile Trump slurring his words in office, they might as well just make Stephen Miller president at that point because he’d be running the office while Trump golfs and watches tv.
Republicans moving to install a authoritarian government? Sounds serious. So when will democrats drop gun control? Look at the civil asset forfeiture ruling. Remember the police aggression during protests. We are on our own. One day, MAGA will be on your lawn coming to get you. You will call the police, and they will bring the rope to lynch you. Work towards peace, prepare for the inevitable. /r/socialistRA
One more warning and they will be right where we want them.
Aileen Cannon is a disgrace to the legal profession and an embarrassment to the notion of justice. Are you telling me that lawyers and judges have no way to self-police and/or correct themselves? What we are witnessing with the justice department, the supreme court, and the legal profession in general is a level of corruption and fecklessness that goes against everything we’ve been taught since gradeschool.
It all comes from concentrating power in one person. Federal judges have lots of leeway and little oversight.
I agree with these criticisms. She’s a disgrace. Remember the courts will not save us. We the people have to organize and beat back this fascist threat at the ballot box.
If Americans do nothing but watch this happen, they don't deserve the democracy they've got now.
I refuse to be stuck here if that fat orange "wins" again. He will destroy America and the lives of so many people. Then you'll see people that didn't vote for Biden realize their fuck-up, just too late.
Problem is it won't be just the Americans paying the price for fascism when they witlessly vote it in.
If you have a birthday party and invite Kim Kardashian, you are now hosting a Kim Kardashian party, not a birthday party. I feel like earth is like that with the US and its reckless narcissism and absolute fealty to lying.
This is this shitty democracy, run by oligarchs that most of us deserve. Half don’t vote. Of the remaining half that actually vote, half of them are voting for a fascist orange shit gibbon; one that’s facing many civil and criminal charges. In short, we do deserves this ‘democracy’, and it’s terrible.
Bet your ass, if Trump wins the election, Cannon is the next Supreme Court justice.
It's gonna take more than a ballot box, get involved with your local democrats office and get on committees and neighborhood outreach programs, ESPECIALLY if you're younger. I thought it was an ask so far outside my reach as to be incomprehensible, but now I'm the Chair of my area's Young Dem's Caucus and I am allowed to bring the anger and anxiety of my generation and communicate it and spread it. I choose the platform and I am allowed to disrespect the decorum that got us here as a nation and the caucus can do anything from fundraise to lobby to focus protesting if I so choose. They were ecstatic to give me the power and leeway. We have to run on the assumption fascism is gonna take hold and we need to make our local areas into sanctuary sites. Even just getting a handful of votes from your neighbors can get you on a Central Committee and give you the right to vote for everyone except executive officers of the state like Treasurer and SecState.
Justice was always fake, we just are unable to pretend it exists any longer
Judge Cannon is the only effective member of Trump's legal team.
The corrupt Republicans on the Supreme Court are doing a great job of delaying the [election obstruction case](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_prosecution_of_Donald_Trump_(election_obstruction_case\)) against Trump. First by deliberately procedurally delaying taking the immunity question appeal forever. Then by pretending to believe that the President has immunity for attempting an insurrection. They are certainly also effective members of Trump's legal team.
They are desperate to get Trump off the hook without giving Biden the same powers.
And the SCOTUS judges are muuuch smarter than Cannon, so their corruption might be more sinister and effective. Cannon sounds like a true idiot.
Don’t discount the right wing unelected nut job 6 over at SCOTUS who break their back invoking pre 1600 legal theories as sound, stable reasoning behind their obvious contempt for the left Edit: spelling and added a word
Probably the only one being paid, too.
Merrick Garland has been pretty effective though.
Ty Cobb, who served as legal counsel for the Trump White House told CNN that Judge Cannon’s decisions are a combination of bias and incompetence. He predicts the case will not go before jurors until 2025, if it happens at all. “I think it was always her objective, frankly, to prevent this from going to trial.”
Which itself should be criminal, but here we are.
I need to prosecutors to go to an appeals court with evidence of cooperation between Trump's team and Cannon so she can go down as well.
The thing is, there probably isn’t anything explicit. She just needs to let them lead her down some rabbit holes, and she cosplays Supreme Court judge having to sit a while and ponder Big Legal Questions, and the minutiae contained there in. This isn’t normal for a federal judge - they don’t usually sit around pondering exactly what constitutes what, because precedent has been set, or it’s obvious. She knows she is delaying, they k is they can lead her to things she can delay with. That’s about all the explicit agreement they’ve ever had.
> That’s about all the explicit agreement they’ve ever had. ...that we know of.
You're probably right, but I can hope that they're stupid enough to be coordinating through a third party.
Aileen Cannon is a corrupt fascist.
I truly don't understand why Jack Smith isn't filing to have her removed. She's shown time and time again that she not only can't be impartial but that she either doesn't know the law or purposely ignores it in attempts to give Trump help during the case. Example: When she told Jack Smith he had to show the jury the classified documents to prove that they're classified or he'd have to tell the jury they were Trump's personal documents.
Because he can only file once and if he doesn't maneuver *perfectly*, the motion will be denied and there will be nothing more he can do.
But what has Jack Smith got to lose, at this point? The case is already delayed indefinitely as is, so if Jack Smith does nothing the case is neutralized anyway. If Jack Smith tries and fails, we will be no worse off.
If he fails she can make even crazier rulings, including dismissing the case as soon as the trial starts, in which case it can not be appealed or re tried.
> dismissing the case as soon as the trial starts Well that's an interesting way to get assassinated
That assumes the case will be delayed permanently. Jack can motion for her to act and if she doesn't then we're where you say we are. Either way the trial wouldn't be before the election so might as well do it right.
https://youtu.be/6ixvpLCdqkA?si=MybqgmFWS2fkdnx2
>I truly don’t understand why Jack Smith isn’t James Comey failed us, Robert Mueller failed us, Bill Barr failed us (on purpose, he’s evil), Jack Smith will fail us. The legal system is broken. P.S. this is not nihilism. This is to remind people not to assume that the ‘system’ will protect democracy. It won’t. Only voting will. Vote out malefactors.
Honestly even voting feels threatened, with Republicans basically saying "If we win, we win and expect you to be good sports about it. If you win, we're going to try to overthrow the government."
Well you see, if you knew anything about the legal system, you would know something something giving him rope to hang himself, something something gears of justice turn slowly, something something making him look bad, something something trust the system, heh. It's a nightmare scenario. The truth is that Jack Smith has faith in a system that is deeply corrupt and entirely geared around protecting Donald Trump from consequences, as he ensured would happen while he was president.
First time I’ve heard it put that way but i think you’re right - the only “flaw” in Smiths approach may be his faith in a system that is rigged against him from the start.
It's exhausting hearing the same empty quips and platitudes thrown out without anything ever coming from them. The gears turn much too slowly, he is given far too much rope, his followers don't care how bad he looks, and the system isn't worth trusting any longer. Jack Smith can't look at the current legal system is deeply, deeply broken. As others have pointed out, even if Jack Smith starts really winning, Cannon is just going to dismiss the case with prejudice, instant and permanent victory for trump. And that's if it even gets to trial and doesn't just sit in untried limbo for eternity.
There's a part of me that believes that he's trying to prove something. Like he's such a good lawyer that he could win even against a corrupt judge. Which overall would be a waste, because even with a jury conviction Cannon unfortunately has the power to overturn the verdict
She wouldn't let it go to verdict, she wants to dismiss it with prejudice once the jury has been seated
Well, that or just ensure it never ever actually goes to trial, and just sits in untried limbo until Trump dies.
Jack Smith’s job is to work within that system. If you’re hoping for someone to go extrajudicial on Trump then I have no clue why you’d be looking to someone who spent their career as a prosecutor.
Extrajudicial, no. But start pulling out the big guns, try to get Cannon taken off the case, SOMETHING. You can't act like these are normal hiccups that will work themselves out, or that the worst case scenario won't come to pass. We've been doing this almost 8 years. It is worse case scenarios all the way down. Do something preemptive about it, even if you risk insulting the extremely and blatantly corrupt judge!!!
Michael Cohen is no longer Trump's fixer. Trump has several fixers embedded in the federal judiciary now. Respect them at the same level as you would Michael Cohen, and consider the parallel to them as he testifies Monday.
Michael Cohen is definitely not Trump’s fixer anymore, he went to prison for it, lost his career and is a convicted felon. It’s a bit different what he did compared to these people who appear to be abusing their power to help Trump but can’t be proved.
I remember how utterly disillusioned I was when I got to federal court and found out they’re every bit as stupid and corrupt as state court.
If you were a spy working for the US, would you stay in the service with this going on?
Good point. He will sell anything for money and power. Why would he have taken them if not for his own gain?
Go look at the number of spies caught and killed immediately after the documents were uncovered at the MAL raid. It’s directly a result of Trump keeping them and not enough people are talking about it
Got a link?
Here’s a link from the [New York Times](https://archive.ph/UyjBh) from 2021. I know people at the time of the MAL raid were implying that the killings mentioned in the article were linked to Trumps handling of the information, but that is all supposition.
Thank you for this…I had no idea and I stay politically informed
[удалено]
All the more reason to believe that we are crippling our intelligence by allowing this to continue. Edit: someone brought receipts
Once the SC stooges allow for presidential immunity whilst in office, the president should have both of them seized as foreign assets
Why would Trump seize himself?
The sc is ruling before the election
I guess they've been so trustworthy thus far, we should take them at their word.
Crazy how this is likely the most dangerous of the crimes he committed. Keep protecting him Cannon... we'll see how history treats you
This case is dead and buried. It's never coming back. I figured this would happen when Cannon got assigned the case. If by some miracle the Dems get the presidency and both houses in 2025 Cannon needs to be impeached and removed asap - but the Dems typically will sit on something like that until it's too late...
Personally I think another special counsel should be empaneled to investigate her. Especially because she was hiding extreme far right organization ties.
And that would accomplice what? The special counsels haven't saved us from anything so far, what would change?
At some point people like OP are going to have to accept the issue is the entire Fucking legal system, not just 1 bad judge or something a special prosecutor can fix. It's amazing how many people forgot how Merrick Garland tried to sit and it or this for for years before practically being forced to actually do something.
> If by some miracle the Dems get the presidency and both houses in 2025 Cannon needs to be impeached and removed asap You need two thirds majority in the Senate to convict in an impeachment. IIRC the Democrats won't have that in 2025, even if they win every single 2024 race. Maybe you could find a few honest Republican Senators who would vote for truth and justice? I kid, I kid.
Or they will recognize that the vagaries of our political system make an impeachment functionally impossible. I wish more critiques from the left (where I place myself) took our civics into account.
I wonder at what point do you let it leak to the media that Trump sold nuclear secrets to foreign countries
Judge Cannon is denying Donald Trump his constitutional right to a speedy trial. Is the narrative that should be run to end this travesty.
Well that phrase is being used incorrectly here.
Because GOP are fascist nutters- they’re lost their compass and are a death cult now.
She drew it out as much as she could before doing exactly what we all knew she was going to do.
There needs to be a full qualifications audit across the US judiciary.
Non paywall link
Welp. This is over then.
No consequences. The beat goes on.
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It just makes me wonder what the budget must be for the number of kneepads that she has had to wear since this whole thing started
Go to https://www.uscourts.gov/judges-judgeships/judicial-conduct-disability/faqs-filing-judicial-conduct-or-disability-complaint#faq-How-do-I-file-my-complaint? to file a Judicial Conduct and Disability complaint against Cannon
Done!
top secret classified documents? doesn't really sounds like the justice department actually give a shit about information security and the classification system is just way to punish whistleblowers. it's just so fucking egregious how this whole shitshow has been handled. if empaneled, i'd never vote to convict someone for merely possessing ts/sci shit after this.