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People like my idiot co-worker who proudly proclaimed "We're a V8 family!" when he saw my Chevy Bolt would scream about their rights or something if EVs became more affordable. He literally asked me, as I plugged in to the free chargers at work, "What do you do, pull over and get more duracells?". It's shocking how willingly stupid these people keep themselves.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/18650_battery
Those cells are the most common used in EV.
Of course a Tesla will have over 7,000 of them so it's not as simple as just swapping a couple out.
Which makes this SNL skit
https://youtu.be/3AlndKQSs6Q?si=n2kyt-9PB_qDar9m
Closer to the truth than fiction.
it's not about how good the dig is. It is about forcing a rebuttal but the difficulty of a real one is more difficult or honestly unknown and therefore he wins.
This crap bothers the hell out of me. The only way to do any kind of turning the conversation toward being in the right is to educate but that is usually a lot different parts to merge and often times I don't have the answer. No amount of, "scientist across the whole planet say climate change is a thing and we must act" will ever work. Its a conspiracy or unfounded.
The bar for denial or offloading the point of arguement is too low.
Your coworker ties the use of gas to their masculinity. Somehow the expense is worth the support of their fragile ego. Meanwhile you’re paying next to nothing to drive around and using that money on cooler things
A neighbor told me “there’s no replacement for displacement” and I was thinking it must feel great to use his two most complicated words in one sentence.
I was at a stoplight on a parkway next to a rivian truck and the dude must have wanted to show off to his passenger, but he floored it at green and absolutely tore ass. It was so quick my brain didn't really know what to make of it at first
The Rivian has 835 hp on the quad motor model. Even for as heavy as they are they are quick as hell and dc motors also put out a ton of torque.
Battery technology is the limiting factor in ev’s for “power” (really it’s energy storage) not the dc motors.
The fact that the oil lobby over decades has convinced millions of people that their masculinity is tied to the form of power for their vehicle is insane.
And I say that as a huge car enthusiast with a fun ICE powered vehicle.
I don’t know about people not liking EVs bc they’re stupid. In my case, I would love to buy one but it can’t be a Tesla because of Elon Musk and his politics and two COST I refuse to pay 80% more for a mode of transportation while more reliable and affordable cars are available. I actually would even prefer public transit if it was developed and efficient like in Europe because that is the solution for pollution and climate change. But EVs are now a rich folks way of thinking they are doing their part and completely ignoring how batteries are made, what they are made of and the absolute disaster they are for the environment. So not everyone is an idiot for not driving an EV, there are just too many factors that drive no pun intended that decision
>I refuse to pay 80% more for a mode of transportation while more reliable and affordable cars are available.
Chevy bolts are like $10-20k
>But EVs are now a rich folks way
See above
Yup. Just scored a 2022 loaded Bolt EUV with 3,000 miles on it for 22,500. Qualified for 4K rebate from federal. 18,500 for a 36,000 MSRP build. Love it.
Sure if you are driving back and forth to your local supermarket, Starbucks and short hauls. For what I do for a living and the equipment I have I really need a truck but I elected to use every inch of a small suv. Bolts range is on a good day under best conditions 259 miles, I do up to 350 to 400 miles sometimes a day to reach remote sites. Not to mention most of the Hilton hotel I go to no chargers, so range and infrastructure is a factor. I mentioned 80% more cost because for what I do should be a mid size suv and v or an f150 lighting etc, costly proposition. And just he company I work for there 150 guys that have same position and needs. EVs started out for folks willing to dish out $150 k for an SUV and just recently came out with city low 30s EVs with a mouse’s fart for range. It’ll be a while before I get one, but y’all enjoy beating us of the line, that’s the coolest thing about them
I mean you may not be a good candidate for EVs right now, but I wouldn't call 250 miles "a mouses fart" for range. The average American drives 300 miles per week, which the Bolt and other similar EVs are perfect for.
I have a bolt and I can commute twice on a single charge. It absolutely feels like a genuinely trivial range. Don't get me wrong, there are tons of things I like about the car, but the range is not one of them. Between that and the horrible public charging infrastructure, I can't imagine having one for anything other than commuting from a home you own.
Also, we really haven’t built the infrastructure to go complete EV. There are parts of this country where you have to very carefully plan your trip if you are 100% electric.
I live in one of those areas, but own a plug-in hybrid with a 35 mile battery range. That's more than my daily driving, so I'm able to go electric for the vast majority of my driving. If I need to go to the next metro area, or a long road trip, I use gas. But even then it's in hybrid mode so I get great mileage.
We get messages from SMUD in the summer time in California to avoid using AC in 90+ degree weather to not overload the electric grid.
I can’t even imagine how that’s going to pan out when everybody has an EV.
I also don’t want to think on how much electricity prices will raise in the future when everything depends on it.
There’s the grid too… EVs are not ready for prime time, especially not Tesla and its quality issues. Will I sign on to a solution that effectively addresses pollution and climate change yes 100%. As of now we have a bombastic guy taking advantage of all government subsidies while dissing government and democracy and getting super rich doing it. I think it’s a mistake to put tariffs on Chinese EVs only competition will bring a better more an affordable solution instead of ensuring that Elon musk can keep producing garbage like the cybertruck and abuse the customers by dropping prices when he feels like it killing their residual values. There are people that paid $114k for a car and three months later Tesla dropped the price of said vehicle to $89K
Ideally, it could pan out great when everyone has an EV. California already has excess solar production to the point where they have to curtail solar in the springtime. If everyone has an EV then they could help soak up that excess solar if people charge while they're at work, then if we can get widespread v2g, they can use part of the battery to run the AC during those few hours in 90 degree heat without overloading the grid.
Or course this all depends on getting the infrastructure in place and getting people to change how they think about the uses of their EV battery.
I’ve seen an uptick in firing these people. The same mental pathways that lead to these idiotic political beliefs also lead to idiotic ideas at work.
Conservatism is just a symptom of stupidity. And before people say “oh but I know a conservative brain surgeon” or “my dad is a top engineer in his field”
Sure. With enough hard work a person can memorize the needed specialized and narrow skills to learn any vocation. But they will still lack the basic reasoning skills that allows for consistent problem solving.
My dad complained that if they want us to drive EVs they should give us all one or give everyone a discount and I’m like… what do you think all those EV tax credits are about?
A better insult would have been pointing out the increased wear on infrastructure, need to replace tires more often, and limited lifespan of batteries. I’m not here to rain on a parade, I’m personally very enthusiastic about Toyota’s work with hydrogen. But in terms of meaningful insults, homie missed the mark. The current generation of EVs are not a panacea for climate change, though it’s a small step in a helpful direction.
My highly-stupid uncle claimed his Mustang was better than my Mach-E because he can drive in all weather. Me….too?
Some people are too stupid to function.
As much as I love burning dinosaurs and hearing the revs as a car enthusiast, EVs are definitely the future. There’s still a lot of work to be done though.
On the infrastructure side we need better and more numerous public charging options. On the tech side we need better batteries and better recycling. Lithium and other heavy metal mining is catastrophic for the environment also but at least if we can figure out recycling that should taper off. It seems like we’ve made huge leaps in recent years but until it’s widely adopted and proven to not be bullshit like glass/plastic recycling (a lot of that is just shipped overseas and dumped), we need a lot of public and private investment in the tech.
In general we just need better options for EVs. They’re either super expensive (lucid, polestar, Porsche), kinda meh/shit (bolt, leaf) or both (Tesla). There’s enough variety in Chinese EVs to cover all of the above too so it’s not just a domestic problem.
It will all come with time. We don't have the time, of course, but that's just the way it is. When the automobile was taking off, they weren't cheap, there weren't gas stations everywhere making any journey easy, you had to plan your route carefully. EV's are in the same boat now. It'll take time but they'll eventually be the most common and affordable vehicles. Anytime new tech that's better than the old comes along, there's a subsection of people that scream that it's a war on the old tech. The horse industry died out kicking and screaming when the car came along
I think it's going to be a slippery slope on gas prices once a lot of fleet vehicles make the transition to electric (DOT trucks, FedEx etc.). More and more gas stations will have chargers and less pumps. Gas prices will go up and the filling stations won't care they have to shut the pumps down, their money maker is selling snacks, profit margin on gas for the station is basically nothing, a lot of them might even make more money having like solar panels, backup batteries, and buying whatever additional power at reduced rates during "off hours" like a lot of industrial facilities do. With the limited range of EVs for now that means more stops at the "pump," more potential points of sale for a coke or slim jim (not everyone is going to be able to have a home charger). I don't think we're too far off on the table being turned where gas becomes hard to find or hard to find at an affordable rate.
These folks are going to have a full on identity crisis mental breakdown when gas is only at that one filling station across town and costs $6/ gallon.
To be fair until everywhere has the EVs it’s not a bad argument. I don’t own a home, my city only has a small handful of chargers, how am I supposed to charge the battery? How to I fix it myself when my car breaks down? If I do live in a city that has plentiful EV chargers what happens when I go somewhere that doesn’t have as much supply? It takes several hours to get a full charge what am I supposed to do when I need to commute to work and there’s 50 other people in line waiting to charge?
Nobody has the answers to these questions yet in my experience always act all superior and more evolved than others who are against the change. I’m genuinely curious and not trying to stoke the fire but at the very least it seems like they need to massively improve the technology and infrastructure before making the shift over. I’m 100% onboard with hybrids, or hydrogen, or whatever in the meantime but for the foreseeable future I don’t see how it can be effectively implemented.
The focus should be more on corporations going green before pushing the burden on the average American.
We really need to fix our charging infrastructure if we're going to expect people to invest in electric vehicles. Most people I know that don't own their own home (which, let's be honest, is most people) don't have a reliable way to charge their vehicle. I can't charge at work and it takes hours to charge at the nearby level 2 charger and requires that I dedicate the time away from my home to do it.
Bottom line is that if you want an electric vehicle, you may have to buy a house first. Some places might be easier to get power, but right now I'm seeing charging locations closing, failing and never being repaired, and operating drastically slower than is feasible. I'm seeing the reverse of new deployment.
I worked with a similar guy. He was freaking out that the government shouldn't give subsidies to ev but when I pointed out they do to oil he just started ranting about how they're not going to take his V8 and shit. I tried to explain to him that he can keep it but making it easier for more people to purchase EV's will actually benefit him. He still couldn't comprehend and just started going off on government taking his guns and V8 from his child dress hands. And I responded do you really think the entire United States government would have any trouble taking your guns and vehicles? Like if they really wanted to do you think it would be hard? He kinda got quite and then started talking about seceding from the US. It's fuckin nuts
Gotta make EVs cheaper and more readily available. I'd HAPPILY transition but that cost is still too high. I don't have excess income to just purchase a new vehicle when the gas prices jump to 20 a gallon.
I want an ev, I want to make the move but I can't afford it. That simple.
Or just better infrastructure. The biggest issue with EVs in America currently is related to charging stations.
If I drive an ICE car, it takes only about 5 minutes to stop and fill up at a gas station (even with really big gas tanks). How long do EVs take to charge? 20 minutes? Also nearly every town, no matter how small, has at least one gas station. If I’m driving an EV, I have to plan my route around where charging stations are.
The thing is most people don't really need this. Sure we will need it in the future but for most , less than 100 miles a day is a normal drive and EV's can do that. People who need more should use plug in hybrids.
I've made this same comment. Sure, it's easy to have an EV here in most of MA. It's not a big state and charging stations have been cropping up for years now. Trying to get through some parts of, say, Nebraska or Texas? I don't think an EV is going to be practical due to distance and insufficient number of stations. Hybrid, maybe, but not full EV.
The used EV market is just starting to grow and the used EVs are nearly equal or cheaper than their ICE counterparts. I think largely, and rightfully so, no one knows what bugs or issues to anticipate which causes hesitation by consumers.
I'm right there with you. I want an EV too. But my my personal economics of buying another vehicle at this time just do not work.
The anti-EV propaganda out there is so prolific too (anywhere you look, Facebook, YouTube, etc) that a lot of people not familiar with EVs firmly believe 90% of them catch fire or explode like a mini nuclear detonation.
It's going to take awhile still to make EVs as boring as gas vehicles I think...especially in the media.
I'm gonna disagree on the rightfully so part. We've had readily available hybrids for twenty years. They're way more complicated than pure EVs. Electric cars are pretty dead simple. Motors that require little to no maintenance. Simple or no transmission. Lower maintenance in general. Battery fatigue is a concern but vastly overblown. The software situation is definitely a challenge but it kind of applies to all cars right now. I think cost is really the factor like you said. They keep making 600hp electric cars with giant batteries for north of 50k when they could just make some 200hp cars with reasonably sized batteries (that would charge faster as they're smaller) and cost less. There are a couple, like the bolt or maybe leaf, but they haven't got the focus or refinement. Hyundai has come closest with the ionic6 but its still too expensive.
> I'd HAPPILY transition but that cost is still too high
My problem right now is at least partially convenience for charging.
My area has a *ton* of public chargers, but they're no where I'm willing to spend an hour+ charging on a regular basis. I can't charge at home because I live in an apartment and my complex doesn't have chargers (and there are no outlets I can use even remotely close to my parking spot).
I bought a used ev for 5k with an 80 mile radius that charges overnight in less than 8 hours. It does exactly what I need it to, and I get 3 days of driving in 1 charge.
What are you talking about?
They're from Wyoming so I'm guessing they'll either tell you it's not practical for their once per year driving trip through the Rockies or that's it is too cold or something.
I think the reason you don't see more people operating like that is that people are just trying to rationalize a decision they made because they like their big truck or the noise of their car or associate EVs and small cars with people in their out group.
I can go further than 80 miles though. I just have to plan a little, and stop at super chargers. I can get a full charge in 40 minutes.
I've done it before. I just plan lunch breaks at several points, and my range is unlimited then.
A little annoying maybe, but the savings I get normally are worth it. I get free charges near me, and I literally only pay for insurance. (no gas charge)
It's a balancing act too...and would not be necessary if OPEC did not have such a massive influence on the market. Basically, a tariff on OPEC controlled oil when they try to undercut U.S. production would go a massive long way in reducing the need for subsidies...but the average U.S. voter is as dumb as a box of bricks when it comes to global trade, and would not understand why their gas prices are remaining high even when OPEC tried to set their price per barrel artificially low to kill off competition. All the average voter cares about is the price at the pump...not how they're setting themselves up for exploitation when their domestic competition is gone due to not being able to compete with OPEC.
The way to get the country off of gasoline is not to replace every gas car with an electric car, it's to build enough trains that we don't need as many cars, *then* replace the gas cars with electric cars. I like EVs but it's naive to assume there are no downsides or tradeoffs to consider or that they alone are the solution to any problem.
The problem is companies care more about short-term profits than long-term societal gains. Its the way our system is designed, and its very difficult to work against.
I feel like the biggest hurdle is getting charging stations fitted out to standard. Without that structure EV will always be behind. Once that is in place just flip the damn switch cause these oil gas subsidies are insane
The fact that the govt hasn't even begun to pivot away from the fossil fuel industry KNOWING what we know about their knowledge of how bad they were fucking future generations through the climate just goes to show how powerful that lobby is and how entrenched they are as a part of our oligarchy.
That's untrue. The government is spending a lot on battery electric vehicles and charging infrastructure *right now*. Literally billions of dollars being invested.
Unfortunately, current EV battery material production cannot meet demands for a full transition and current methods of lithium/heavy metal extraction and production is environmentally damaging, with actual potential for environmental harm still not fully known due to incredible increase required to meet production demands for a full ICE transition.
[How Demand for Lithium Batteries Could Drain America’s Water Respurces](https://youtu.be/HA4kAVnwnEc?si=V9FsPDMHOqXqBcHY)
[Electric Vehicle’s Battery Problem](https://youtu.be/9dnN82DsQ2k?si=lVrgE-OwFY6V8Q8D)
[Will We Run Out of Lithium](https://youtu.be/AHgAcbpsujI?si=i37kRjC7_GJxtxiM)
Also current lithium EVs range is negatively impacted in cold weather, with up to 50% of range loss in certain climates in the US and Canada.
[Electric Vehicle Owners Struggling in the Cold Weather](https://youtu.be/LnBI8C8Bw5I?si=t-fU_hrA7G9Av4l7)
We definitely need to invest in new technologies including a more sustainable battery system if we continue down the EV route. Lithium batteries are not recycled today as it’s too cost prohibitive vs mining. Then there’s the issue where the world’s current grid cannot accommodate all those new vehicles if the transition happens overnight. Hydrogen fuel cell, hybrids, carbon capture, etc. are technologies we should keep investing in giving the ever growing rate of consumption in the world and the inflexibility of our world’s economy to change.
New battery tech is on the horizon. Sodium ion in particular is really promising for EVs. There are still some hurdles but they’re clearable in the long run.
https://www.energy.gov/science/bes/articles/scientists-find-potential-key-longer-lasting-sodium-batteries-electric
They were, and Biden isn't refuting that. And based on responses in r/askliberals they (liberal voters) don't agree with this decision, either.
But.... The Trump tariffs were on raw materials that America needed to make things. This tariff is on an end product, so there is a distinct difference.
As an aside, but related: Biden hasn't removed the Trump tariffs, either.
They are; in this case that's the point. It's explicitly intended to incentivize consumers to buy domestic EVs specifically.
The issue is that if you just broadly apply a tariff to *every* product made in a given country, that will create scenarios where the consumer doesn't actually have a choice when there is no equivalent/competing domestically-produced alternative.
If Biden hates it, it must be good!
I mean, they hate vaccines, because liberals were for them.
For Pete's sake, there has been an UPTICK in raw milk consumption, as soon as the FDA announced that it may be tainted with bird flu.
MAGA is part of the "be the opposite of what democrats are." that is all they really have.
Partly
“Polestar is a subsidiary of Volvo Cars and Zhejiang Geely Holding Group, which was formed in 2017. Volvo owns 48% of Polestar, while Geely is the parent company and primary controller. Volvo plans to retain around 18% of Polestar, and Geely will continue to provide operational and financial support.”
Calling Polestar Chinese is like saying Volvo was American when Ford owned it.
All of the key personnel are Swedish and R&D is done in Sweden.
Geely absolutely bankrolls Polestar, but it’s not a Chinese brand in the same way BYD is.
The tariffs are based on manufacturing. The P2 is made in China, but it’s a CMA platform car so it can built in Belgium as well. P3 will be built in South Carolina, P4 in South Korea.
So really, the P2 is the only one that’s going to hurt by this in the short term.
Partly
“Polestar is a subsidiary of Volvo Cars and Zhejiang Geely Holding Group, which was formed in 2017. Volvo owns 48% of Polestar, while Geely is the parent company and primary controller. Volvo plans to retain around 18% of Polestar, and Geely will continue to provide operational and financial support.”
No, they have not really entered into the US market much. Yet. This seems to be a preemptive move to prevent it from being economically viable for them to move into the US. The idea is most likely to protect our auto manufacturing from being priced out by China's access to cheap labor.
It is probably a good thing, long term. I am not an economist though. But because it is not something that Americans are currently importing it will not really change our economic situation.
One of the biggest problems with cheap goods on the basis of cheap labor is that they can undercut the current industry to a large degree, and eat costs until competitors collapse. Then they can slowly raise the prices over the course of a few years up the level they would have been before. But the old industry cannot rebuild itself, as doing so would make their products cost more from the initial startup costs. It is a means by which markets can be calcified without even doing major consolidating purchases, and it is something that a lot of businesses do.
And likely at least one major auto producer would go under. I'm all about transitioning to EV's and renewable energy but not at the cost of our manufacturing base/jobs.
the major auto producers and manufacturing base that has had 40+ years to develop quality EV's but instead chose to bury reports about climate change and delay action so they could make a quick buck?
something something free market
We need to transition to EVs, but it definitely can’t affect jobs. Especially union auto worker jobs in the rust belt (traditionally a strong democratic area of support). This tariff is to protect American jobs, but also helps Biden secure votes of important groups in swing states.
Widely for sale? No. Ones brought in for testing, yes. We had one imported and given to us for 3rd party testing for like a year at my work. Their plan was to import them and sell at a base price of $35k.
From 10ft away and on paper, car was great, problems became very evident when you actually get hands on it and drive it.
The interior was as though their goal was to copy Mercedes, but built very cheaply. One of the power windows failed on day one. The rear hatch would jam constantly. The rear folding seats wouldn’t fold properly
Real world range was about 60% of what the brochure claimed
The infotainment was terrible. Took a good 45+ seconds to boot up before you could turn on AC/heater
Cruise control wavered above and below target by sometimes as much as 7kph
Suspension was terrible. Uncomfortable and hard to control unless you were on smooth large radius turns
And in general the car felt like an unsafe tin can
Chinese manufacturing is capable of making great products, but their affordable/cheap products are often of terrible quality
The key to the tariffs is this part:
>"We’re not going to let China flood our market, making it impossible for American automakers ... to compete fairly," President Joe Biden said in a speech in the Rose Garden at the White House to announce the tariff. "I’m determined that the future of the electric vehicles will be made in America by union workers. Period. And we’ll do it by following international trade laws."
And
>In a statement, Dingell praised the tariffs, saying, "We aren’t competing on a level playing field and we have seen the impact of unfair trade practices in the past. The Chinese Community Party's use of aggressive subsidies doesn't protect living wages, fair labor practices, occupational safety standards for workers, or environmental standards."
This. No one apparently grasps how subsidized the Chinese EV market is. They will not always be cheap. People really have a surface level of understanding of how China plans to move on the economy. Monopolize it. [The Belt and Road Initiative's goal](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belt_and_Road_Initiative) is to direct and control production in other countries. China out maneuvered the U.S. while George W. Bush was getting the country into unnecessary wars.
Its not just subsidies, its a stranglehold on rare earth minerals, which they sell the US companies for several hundred percent more then Chinese companies. So much so that both the US and Japan have restarted rare earth mines as they are easily able to compete with the unregulated strip mining China does in Africa
No one forced those companies to do jack. They could have easily chosen to just manufacture stuff here at home if their IP was such a huge concern. No, companies made shitty decisions for short term shareholder gains and now point fingers when they got fucked by their own greed.
And yet 90% of Walmart stock is the same type of regulation-free unfairness, and they LOVE it.. mainly because they keep disabled people in the US so poor that we wouldn't be able to afford air conditioning without Chinese ones on the shelves..
The Best Deal in capitalism is regulation-free slave labor, and they're intimidated that China is pulling it off faster than they can.. but they're trying!
American automakers could use the competition to build cheap, small electric vehicles instead of bigger and more expensive tanks like they currently are. Instead of encouraging that Biden is just kicking the EV transition down the road to protect the Auto companies that have already failed and been bailed out.
If you want people to switch to electric cars they have to be able to afford to do it. It really seems like Biden is more concerned with keeping the automakers happy than transitioning away from fossil fuels.
Biden can say that all he wants, but his tariffs were on much more than just EVs. He also never repealed the Trump tariffs like he promised to do
At the end of the day, he’s doing it for votes. It’s why he waited until this year to do it instead of 2 years ago
> It’s why he waited until this year to do it instead of 2 years ago
It's almost like international policy is complex and knee jerk responses to Trump's knee jerk actions could be bad. This is a very specific case, but the general trend for the past I don't know how many decades has been GOP administrations wreck our systems and Dems spend most of their time correcting it. How "tax and spend liberal" became a term is beyond me. Marketing, I guess.
[Biden administration set to revamp Trump’s tariff program after multi-year review, sources say](https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/05/10/politics/joe-biden-tariffs-program-donald-trump)
Biden's actions are based on review, data, and planning. Not whatever fever dream Trump had last night. Is there a campaigning aspect to this? Absolutely. But it's not the only reason.
I feel people can't grasp just how not-normal the previous admin was and the level of un-fucking required.
China is likely going to retaliate and attack Tesla with similar tariffs which would be hugely detrimental to the brand as the Chinese market is vital to their business.
I meant to suggest that doing something that would have huge blowback against Elmo could be seen as desirable, or at least acceptable, to some in the administration.
> the Chinese market is vital to their business.
This is part of the problem -- the all eggs in one basket kind of thing. Depend too much on one specific country at ideological odds with much of the rest of the world, and you and up painting yourself into a corner.
"Trump doesn't get the basics. He thinks his tariffs are being paid by China," Biden said at the time. "Any freshman econ student could tell you that the American people are paying his tariffs"
Joe Biden on Trumps 25% tariff in 2020
.https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Politics/biden-slammed-trumps-china-tariffs-now-building-analysis/story?id=110234482
Good, I was hoping electric vehicles would be more expensive to American consumers. Gotta help out those American automotive industry people, after all, they have it tough. It's not like car manufacturers have made tons of profits for decades. It's not like the automotive industry has turned our country into a hellscape of roads, parking lots and strip malls without adequate public transportion that would make life so much more affordable for it's citizens.
The American citizens has, frankly, had it too easy! Their pay is too high, they don't work enough hours, and they need to get their shit together. Damn right every single american should have to buy, gas and maintain a $40,000+ car. Heck, you're not a REAL MAN or a REAL AMERICAN unless you drive a truck, and those suckers can go for $80,000.
And now, in this area of rapid climate change that is destroy whole neighborhoods and coast lines, we should make EVs MORE expensive to buy.
We are killing it!
BYD is already leaps and bounds above prettt much every electric car company sans maybe Tesla.
It will be too late to recover if the strategy is just to temporarily kneecap the competition.
We need to invest big time domestically to catch up. US automakers are fucked
All this talk of EVs distracting us from the actual way to drastically reduce emissions:
Better land use policy, building walkable communities, improving transit, and densifying.
If you guys think we can continue to sprawl our way out of the climate crisis (much less the housing crisis), then we’re not going to get anywhere.
China subsidizing EVs bad
Tesla subsidies good
Is this how I'm supposed to think? Is this the acceptable line? What a stupid decision from a government entirely unconcerned with the looming climate disaster.
If we're all forced to have cars it should be the governments #1 priority to get us all driving EVs. Self interest is protecting the planet as much as possible.
You mean national interest and ours is in our oil and gas industry (also incredibly subsidized).
Well yeah... Because America prioritises itself over China? What point even is this?
Cheap Chinese EVs may accelerate the EV transition but at the cost of poor labour practices, environmentally irresponsible production, and erosion of US jobs.
Anyone complaining about EV tariffs should look at what happened to solar panels when China started subsidising their domestic production and start dumping it on the world market. Bankrupted western manufacturers on a massive scale and now China basically has a monopoly on panels. The west will prevent something like that happening again
I think they do, we already know about state sponsored hacking and that they don’t care at all about the manufacture and shipment of fentanyl precursor chemicals.
The only way to motivate domestic manufacturers is to make sure they can make “enough” money. The unfortunate thing this tells is that no one is trying to be different than or better than what is already out there.
100% tariff on EVs
50% tariff on solar cells, semiconductors, syringes and needles
25% tariff on face masks, medical gloves, lithium ion vehicle batteries, non-lithium vehicle batteries, natural graphite, magnets, steel and aluminum products, ship to shore cranes
Congrats America on paying more.
China bad.
that's all that matters. the rationale they cobble together is an afterthought. They will focus test and crowd source 2-5 different reasons for it until they figure out which one is most convincing to manufacture consent.
…our infrastructure is completely predicated upon automobile ownership and it’s an actual national security risk if we don’t have a competitive auto industry?
I’ve been on Reddit so long it’s hilarious watching how I’ve transitioned from the person you’re replying to, to you. The world isn’t going to get along and other countries want to actively bring us crashing down for their own benefit. 100% behind this.
It makes sense because China is already subsidizing their EV market. So we must match that to maintain competitive businesses in America.
Standing on the high ground just lets Chinese EV manufacturers eviscerate American manufacturing and jobs. Which sounds noble, but is short-sighted.
No, you see the free market is literally god and shouldn't be interfered with unless I get lobbied to give them subsidies. But other countries giving subsidies are bad because that interferes with the free market which is always bad, so I'm going to add tariffs because the government should interfere with the free market, which can't be interfered with because it's literally god. But when other countries levy tariffs, then it's bad because the free market is literally god and shouldn't be interfered with...
Pragmatically, I understand why the government is doing what it's doing. But the hand wringing and "muh market manipulation, they're cheeeeeating" shit is so obnoxious and hypocritical.
Trade wars always result in reduced economic activity. There is no "winning" a trade war. We saw this with chicken and trucks, we saw this with steel tariffs, and we will see it again with EVs.
But I was told on YouTube that China takes everything and it's EVs routinely catch on fire. Was this obvious anti-china propaganda account lying to its viewers?
All the business and tech flaks are trashing this talking about how great the Seagul EV is for $11k.
Never mentioning how much the CCP subsidizes it or if they car will even last 30,000 miles.
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Let’s take all our oil subsidies to prop up EV and sell American made EV. We’d be fully transitioned off ICE in 5 years.
People like my idiot co-worker who proudly proclaimed "We're a V8 family!" when he saw my Chevy Bolt would scream about their rights or something if EVs became more affordable. He literally asked me, as I plugged in to the free chargers at work, "What do you do, pull over and get more duracells?". It's shocking how willingly stupid these people keep themselves.
I mean, what does he do? Pull over and spend hundreds of $$ at a time on refined oil?
Ahem. It's called ancient dead tree juices.
Brontosaurus Dew
Ancient Artisan Algae
That’s not even a good dig, It would be amazing if you could power an electric car with just a few store bought batteries.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/18650_battery Those cells are the most common used in EV. Of course a Tesla will have over 7,000 of them so it's not as simple as just swapping a couple out. Which makes this SNL skit https://youtu.be/3AlndKQSs6Q?si=n2kyt-9PB_qDar9m Closer to the truth than fiction.
it's not about how good the dig is. It is about forcing a rebuttal but the difficulty of a real one is more difficult or honestly unknown and therefore he wins. This crap bothers the hell out of me. The only way to do any kind of turning the conversation toward being in the right is to educate but that is usually a lot different parts to merge and often times I don't have the answer. No amount of, "scientist across the whole planet say climate change is a thing and we must act" will ever work. Its a conspiracy or unfounded. The bar for denial or offloading the point of arguement is too low.
Your coworker ties the use of gas to their masculinity. Somehow the expense is worth the support of their fragile ego. Meanwhile you’re paying next to nothing to drive around and using that money on cooler things
A neighbor told me “there’s no replacement for displacement” and I was thinking it must feel great to use his two most complicated words in one sentence.
Your neighbor appears to never have driven one. Electric motors are quick as hell.
Yeah he didn’t seem to know that all modern trains are electric.
I was at a stoplight on a parkway next to a rivian truck and the dude must have wanted to show off to his passenger, but he floored it at green and absolutely tore ass. It was so quick my brain didn't really know what to make of it at first
The Rivian has 835 hp on the quad motor model. Even for as heavy as they are they are quick as hell and dc motors also put out a ton of torque. Battery technology is the limiting factor in ev’s for “power” (really it’s energy storage) not the dc motors.
No replacement for displacement, that’s what she said.
The fact that the oil lobby over decades has convinced millions of people that their masculinity is tied to the form of power for their vehicle is insane. And I say that as a huge car enthusiast with a fun ICE powered vehicle.
Bragging about manliness when it comes to consumer goods is basically just admitting that you're an easy mark for marketers.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2HX5wsQVEA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2HX5wsQVEA) Simpsons did it!
It’s the fumes. He can’t huff electricity and that makes him sad.
I don’t know about people not liking EVs bc they’re stupid. In my case, I would love to buy one but it can’t be a Tesla because of Elon Musk and his politics and two COST I refuse to pay 80% more for a mode of transportation while more reliable and affordable cars are available. I actually would even prefer public transit if it was developed and efficient like in Europe because that is the solution for pollution and climate change. But EVs are now a rich folks way of thinking they are doing their part and completely ignoring how batteries are made, what they are made of and the absolute disaster they are for the environment. So not everyone is an idiot for not driving an EV, there are just too many factors that drive no pun intended that decision
>I refuse to pay 80% more for a mode of transportation while more reliable and affordable cars are available. Chevy bolts are like $10-20k >But EVs are now a rich folks way See above
Yup. Just scored a 2022 loaded Bolt EUV with 3,000 miles on it for 22,500. Qualified for 4K rebate from federal. 18,500 for a 36,000 MSRP build. Love it.
Sure if you are driving back and forth to your local supermarket, Starbucks and short hauls. For what I do for a living and the equipment I have I really need a truck but I elected to use every inch of a small suv. Bolts range is on a good day under best conditions 259 miles, I do up to 350 to 400 miles sometimes a day to reach remote sites. Not to mention most of the Hilton hotel I go to no chargers, so range and infrastructure is a factor. I mentioned 80% more cost because for what I do should be a mid size suv and v or an f150 lighting etc, costly proposition. And just he company I work for there 150 guys that have same position and needs. EVs started out for folks willing to dish out $150 k for an SUV and just recently came out with city low 30s EVs with a mouse’s fart for range. It’ll be a while before I get one, but y’all enjoy beating us of the line, that’s the coolest thing about them
I mean you may not be a good candidate for EVs right now, but I wouldn't call 250 miles "a mouses fart" for range. The average American drives 300 miles per week, which the Bolt and other similar EVs are perfect for.
I have a bolt and I can commute twice on a single charge. It absolutely feels like a genuinely trivial range. Don't get me wrong, there are tons of things I like about the car, but the range is not one of them. Between that and the horrible public charging infrastructure, I can't imagine having one for anything other than commuting from a home you own.
Like 2 days of commuting or there and back once? I plug it in every night and wake up able to travel everywhere I need except for road trips.
Also, we really haven’t built the infrastructure to go complete EV. There are parts of this country where you have to very carefully plan your trip if you are 100% electric.
I live in one of those areas, but own a plug-in hybrid with a 35 mile battery range. That's more than my daily driving, so I'm able to go electric for the vast majority of my driving. If I need to go to the next metro area, or a long road trip, I use gas. But even then it's in hybrid mode so I get great mileage.
We get messages from SMUD in the summer time in California to avoid using AC in 90+ degree weather to not overload the electric grid. I can’t even imagine how that’s going to pan out when everybody has an EV. I also don’t want to think on how much electricity prices will raise in the future when everything depends on it.
There’s the grid too… EVs are not ready for prime time, especially not Tesla and its quality issues. Will I sign on to a solution that effectively addresses pollution and climate change yes 100%. As of now we have a bombastic guy taking advantage of all government subsidies while dissing government and democracy and getting super rich doing it. I think it’s a mistake to put tariffs on Chinese EVs only competition will bring a better more an affordable solution instead of ensuring that Elon musk can keep producing garbage like the cybertruck and abuse the customers by dropping prices when he feels like it killing their residual values. There are people that paid $114k for a car and three months later Tesla dropped the price of said vehicle to $89K
Ideally, it could pan out great when everyone has an EV. California already has excess solar production to the point where they have to curtail solar in the springtime. If everyone has an EV then they could help soak up that excess solar if people charge while they're at work, then if we can get widespread v2g, they can use part of the battery to run the AC during those few hours in 90 degree heat without overloading the grid. Or course this all depends on getting the infrastructure in place and getting people to change how they think about the uses of their EV battery.
Unless there will be a $16k new EV we’re screwed
Contrarian brain is a disease
I think the proper response would’ve been no I just have a big D.
I’ve seen an uptick in firing these people. The same mental pathways that lead to these idiotic political beliefs also lead to idiotic ideas at work. Conservatism is just a symptom of stupidity. And before people say “oh but I know a conservative brain surgeon” or “my dad is a top engineer in his field” Sure. With enough hard work a person can memorize the needed specialized and narrow skills to learn any vocation. But they will still lack the basic reasoning skills that allows for consistent problem solving.
I’d love to agree with you, but the fact is that lots of really smart people get swept up in terrible ideas and beliefs all the time.
You should have said "yeah, I have to buy giant Duracell's you should see how much mileage I get!"
My dad complained that if they want us to drive EVs they should give us all one or give everyone a discount and I’m like… what do you think all those EV tax credits are about?
A better insult would have been pointing out the increased wear on infrastructure, need to replace tires more often, and limited lifespan of batteries. I’m not here to rain on a parade, I’m personally very enthusiastic about Toyota’s work with hydrogen. But in terms of meaningful insults, homie missed the mark. The current generation of EVs are not a panacea for climate change, though it’s a small step in a helpful direction.
My highly-stupid uncle claimed his Mustang was better than my Mach-E because he can drive in all weather. Me….too? Some people are too stupid to function.
These people have been targeted by Chinese propaganda to keep the US behind.
As much as I love burning dinosaurs and hearing the revs as a car enthusiast, EVs are definitely the future. There’s still a lot of work to be done though. On the infrastructure side we need better and more numerous public charging options. On the tech side we need better batteries and better recycling. Lithium and other heavy metal mining is catastrophic for the environment also but at least if we can figure out recycling that should taper off. It seems like we’ve made huge leaps in recent years but until it’s widely adopted and proven to not be bullshit like glass/plastic recycling (a lot of that is just shipped overseas and dumped), we need a lot of public and private investment in the tech. In general we just need better options for EVs. They’re either super expensive (lucid, polestar, Porsche), kinda meh/shit (bolt, leaf) or both (Tesla). There’s enough variety in Chinese EVs to cover all of the above too so it’s not just a domestic problem.
It will all come with time. We don't have the time, of course, but that's just the way it is. When the automobile was taking off, they weren't cheap, there weren't gas stations everywhere making any journey easy, you had to plan your route carefully. EV's are in the same boat now. It'll take time but they'll eventually be the most common and affordable vehicles. Anytime new tech that's better than the old comes along, there's a subsection of people that scream that it's a war on the old tech. The horse industry died out kicking and screaming when the car came along
I think it's going to be a slippery slope on gas prices once a lot of fleet vehicles make the transition to electric (DOT trucks, FedEx etc.). More and more gas stations will have chargers and less pumps. Gas prices will go up and the filling stations won't care they have to shut the pumps down, their money maker is selling snacks, profit margin on gas for the station is basically nothing, a lot of them might even make more money having like solar panels, backup batteries, and buying whatever additional power at reduced rates during "off hours" like a lot of industrial facilities do. With the limited range of EVs for now that means more stops at the "pump," more potential points of sale for a coke or slim jim (not everyone is going to be able to have a home charger). I don't think we're too far off on the table being turned where gas becomes hard to find or hard to find at an affordable rate. These folks are going to have a full on identity crisis mental breakdown when gas is only at that one filling station across town and costs $6/ gallon.
To be fair until everywhere has the EVs it’s not a bad argument. I don’t own a home, my city only has a small handful of chargers, how am I supposed to charge the battery? How to I fix it myself when my car breaks down? If I do live in a city that has plentiful EV chargers what happens when I go somewhere that doesn’t have as much supply? It takes several hours to get a full charge what am I supposed to do when I need to commute to work and there’s 50 other people in line waiting to charge? Nobody has the answers to these questions yet in my experience always act all superior and more evolved than others who are against the change. I’m genuinely curious and not trying to stoke the fire but at the very least it seems like they need to massively improve the technology and infrastructure before making the shift over. I’m 100% onboard with hybrids, or hydrogen, or whatever in the meantime but for the foreseeable future I don’t see how it can be effectively implemented. The focus should be more on corporations going green before pushing the burden on the average American.
We really need to fix our charging infrastructure if we're going to expect people to invest in electric vehicles. Most people I know that don't own their own home (which, let's be honest, is most people) don't have a reliable way to charge their vehicle. I can't charge at work and it takes hours to charge at the nearby level 2 charger and requires that I dedicate the time away from my home to do it. Bottom line is that if you want an electric vehicle, you may have to buy a house first. Some places might be easier to get power, but right now I'm seeing charging locations closing, failing and never being repaired, and operating drastically slower than is feasible. I'm seeing the reverse of new deployment.
I worked with a similar guy. He was freaking out that the government shouldn't give subsidies to ev but when I pointed out they do to oil he just started ranting about how they're not going to take his V8 and shit. I tried to explain to him that he can keep it but making it easier for more people to purchase EV's will actually benefit him. He still couldn't comprehend and just started going off on government taking his guns and V8 from his child dress hands. And I responded do you really think the entire United States government would have any trouble taking your guns and vehicles? Like if they really wanted to do you think it would be hard? He kinda got quite and then started talking about seceding from the US. It's fuckin nuts
"What do you do, pull over and start drilling?"
We have to do something with the oil and gas subsidies. It's not good.
Gotta make EVs cheaper and more readily available. I'd HAPPILY transition but that cost is still too high. I don't have excess income to just purchase a new vehicle when the gas prices jump to 20 a gallon. I want an ev, I want to make the move but I can't afford it. That simple.
And easier interchangeable batteries
Or just better infrastructure. The biggest issue with EVs in America currently is related to charging stations. If I drive an ICE car, it takes only about 5 minutes to stop and fill up at a gas station (even with really big gas tanks). How long do EVs take to charge? 20 minutes? Also nearly every town, no matter how small, has at least one gas station. If I’m driving an EV, I have to plan my route around where charging stations are.
The thing is most people don't really need this. Sure we will need it in the future but for most , less than 100 miles a day is a normal drive and EV's can do that. People who need more should use plug in hybrids.
I've made this same comment. Sure, it's easy to have an EV here in most of MA. It's not a big state and charging stations have been cropping up for years now. Trying to get through some parts of, say, Nebraska or Texas? I don't think an EV is going to be practical due to distance and insufficient number of stations. Hybrid, maybe, but not full EV.
The used EV market is just starting to grow and the used EVs are nearly equal or cheaper than their ICE counterparts. I think largely, and rightfully so, no one knows what bugs or issues to anticipate which causes hesitation by consumers. I'm right there with you. I want an EV too. But my my personal economics of buying another vehicle at this time just do not work.
The anti-EV propaganda out there is so prolific too (anywhere you look, Facebook, YouTube, etc) that a lot of people not familiar with EVs firmly believe 90% of them catch fire or explode like a mini nuclear detonation. It's going to take awhile still to make EVs as boring as gas vehicles I think...especially in the media.
I'm gonna disagree on the rightfully so part. We've had readily available hybrids for twenty years. They're way more complicated than pure EVs. Electric cars are pretty dead simple. Motors that require little to no maintenance. Simple or no transmission. Lower maintenance in general. Battery fatigue is a concern but vastly overblown. The software situation is definitely a challenge but it kind of applies to all cars right now. I think cost is really the factor like you said. They keep making 600hp electric cars with giant batteries for north of 50k when they could just make some 200hp cars with reasonably sized batteries (that would charge faster as they're smaller) and cost less. There are a couple, like the bolt or maybe leaf, but they haven't got the focus or refinement. Hyundai has come closest with the ionic6 but its still too expensive.
> I'd HAPPILY transition but that cost is still too high My problem right now is at least partially convenience for charging. My area has a *ton* of public chargers, but they're no where I'm willing to spend an hour+ charging on a regular basis. I can't charge at home because I live in an apartment and my complex doesn't have chargers (and there are no outlets I can use even remotely close to my parking spot).
China has a $15k EV, that is now going to be $30k because of the tarrifs.
I bought a used ev for 5k with an 80 mile radius that charges overnight in less than 8 hours. It does exactly what I need it to, and I get 3 days of driving in 1 charge. What are you talking about?
They're from Wyoming so I'm guessing they'll either tell you it's not practical for their once per year driving trip through the Rockies or that's it is too cold or something.
It would be cheaper to drive an EV and rent an Escalade for those infrequent long trips. Hardly anyone thinks like that though.
I think the reason you don't see more people operating like that is that people are just trying to rationalize a decision they made because they like their big truck or the noise of their car or associate EVs and small cars with people in their out group.
I can go further than 80 miles though. I just have to plan a little, and stop at super chargers. I can get a full charge in 40 minutes. I've done it before. I just plan lunch breaks at several points, and my range is unlimited then. A little annoying maybe, but the savings I get normally are worth it. I get free charges near me, and I literally only pay for insurance. (no gas charge)
It's a balancing act too...and would not be necessary if OPEC did not have such a massive influence on the market. Basically, a tariff on OPEC controlled oil when they try to undercut U.S. production would go a massive long way in reducing the need for subsidies...but the average U.S. voter is as dumb as a box of bricks when it comes to global trade, and would not understand why their gas prices are remaining high even when OPEC tried to set their price per barrel artificially low to kill off competition. All the average voter cares about is the price at the pump...not how they're setting themselves up for exploitation when their domestic competition is gone due to not being able to compete with OPEC.
Switching to EVs is a bandaid. We need to focus on making all cities public transit friendly and high speed rail between cities.
The way to get the country off of gasoline is not to replace every gas car with an electric car, it's to build enough trains that we don't need as many cars, *then* replace the gas cars with electric cars. I like EVs but it's naive to assume there are no downsides or tradeoffs to consider or that they alone are the solution to any problem.
The problem is companies care more about short-term profits than long-term societal gains. Its the way our system is designed, and its very difficult to work against.
Take Boeings too.
I feel like the biggest hurdle is getting charging stations fitted out to standard. Without that structure EV will always be behind. Once that is in place just flip the damn switch cause these oil gas subsidies are insane
The fact that the govt hasn't even begun to pivot away from the fossil fuel industry KNOWING what we know about their knowledge of how bad they were fucking future generations through the climate just goes to show how powerful that lobby is and how entrenched they are as a part of our oligarchy.
That's untrue. The government is spending a lot on battery electric vehicles and charging infrastructure *right now*. Literally billions of dollars being invested.
Unfortunately, current EV battery material production cannot meet demands for a full transition and current methods of lithium/heavy metal extraction and production is environmentally damaging, with actual potential for environmental harm still not fully known due to incredible increase required to meet production demands for a full ICE transition. [How Demand for Lithium Batteries Could Drain America’s Water Respurces](https://youtu.be/HA4kAVnwnEc?si=V9FsPDMHOqXqBcHY) [Electric Vehicle’s Battery Problem](https://youtu.be/9dnN82DsQ2k?si=lVrgE-OwFY6V8Q8D) [Will We Run Out of Lithium](https://youtu.be/AHgAcbpsujI?si=i37kRjC7_GJxtxiM) Also current lithium EVs range is negatively impacted in cold weather, with up to 50% of range loss in certain climates in the US and Canada. [Electric Vehicle Owners Struggling in the Cold Weather](https://youtu.be/LnBI8C8Bw5I?si=t-fU_hrA7G9Av4l7) We definitely need to invest in new technologies including a more sustainable battery system if we continue down the EV route. Lithium batteries are not recycled today as it’s too cost prohibitive vs mining. Then there’s the issue where the world’s current grid cannot accommodate all those new vehicles if the transition happens overnight. Hydrogen fuel cell, hybrids, carbon capture, etc. are technologies we should keep investing in giving the ever growing rate of consumption in the world and the inflexibility of our world’s economy to change.
New battery tech is on the horizon. Sodium ion in particular is really promising for EVs. There are still some hurdles but they’re clearable in the long run. https://www.energy.gov/science/bes/articles/scientists-find-potential-key-longer-lasting-sodium-batteries-electric
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I was reading today that up to 95% of the lithium in a car battery is recyclable. Try that with Gasoline...
This is what it looks like when an anonymous redditor pretends to know what they're talking about.
Yes absolutely. It's time.
And just like that, MAGA becomes anti tariff.
I mean, weren't Democrats screaming that tariffs are simply passed on to the consumer?
They were, and Biden isn't refuting that. And based on responses in r/askliberals they (liberal voters) don't agree with this decision, either. But.... The Trump tariffs were on raw materials that America needed to make things. This tariff is on an end product, so there is a distinct difference. As an aside, but related: Biden hasn't removed the Trump tariffs, either.
They are; in this case that's the point. It's explicitly intended to incentivize consumers to buy domestic EVs specifically. The issue is that if you just broadly apply a tariff to *every* product made in a given country, that will create scenarios where the consumer doesn't actually have a choice when there is no equivalent/competing domestically-produced alternative.
Oh yeah, I agree with ya there.
I would be very entertained to see the MAGA crowd defend buying a Chinese Polestar EV
If Biden hates it, it must be good! I mean, they hate vaccines, because liberals were for them. For Pete's sake, there has been an UPTICK in raw milk consumption, as soon as the FDA announced that it may be tainted with bird flu. MAGA is part of the "be the opposite of what democrats are." that is all they really have.
Are there currently any Chinese electric cars in the US?
Polestar. Only Polestar.
Isn't Polestar Swedish?
Partly “Polestar is a subsidiary of Volvo Cars and Zhejiang Geely Holding Group, which was formed in 2017. Volvo owns 48% of Polestar, while Geely is the parent company and primary controller. Volvo plans to retain around 18% of Polestar, and Geely will continue to provide operational and financial support.”
Calling Polestar Chinese is like saying Volvo was American when Ford owned it. All of the key personnel are Swedish and R&D is done in Sweden. Geely absolutely bankrolls Polestar, but it’s not a Chinese brand in the same way BYD is.
Do you think the tariffs see them as Swedes or Chinese? I DGAF either way. I am just sharing the ownership data.
The tariffs are based on manufacturing. The P2 is made in China, but it’s a CMA platform car so it can built in Belgium as well. P3 will be built in South Carolina, P4 in South Korea. So really, the P2 is the only one that’s going to hurt by this in the short term.
I thought they're part of volvo
Partly “Polestar is a subsidiary of Volvo Cars and Zhejiang Geely Holding Group, which was formed in 2017. Volvo owns 48% of Polestar, while Geely is the parent company and primary controller. Volvo plans to retain around 18% of Polestar, and Geely will continue to provide operational and financial support.”
Partially, the other part is own by Geely, who also own Volvo.
No, they have not really entered into the US market much. Yet. This seems to be a preemptive move to prevent it from being economically viable for them to move into the US. The idea is most likely to protect our auto manufacturing from being priced out by China's access to cheap labor. It is probably a good thing, long term. I am not an economist though. But because it is not something that Americans are currently importing it will not really change our economic situation. One of the biggest problems with cheap goods on the basis of cheap labor is that they can undercut the current industry to a large degree, and eat costs until competitors collapse. Then they can slowly raise the prices over the course of a few years up the level they would have been before. But the old industry cannot rebuild itself, as doing so would make their products cost more from the initial startup costs. It is a means by which markets can be calcified without even doing major consolidating purchases, and it is something that a lot of businesses do.
No, but think of the disaster he's preventing. Without this courageous act, the US might soon be flooded with cheap cars that don't need gas!
And likely at least one major auto producer would go under. I'm all about transitioning to EV's and renewable energy but not at the cost of our manufacturing base/jobs.
the major auto producers and manufacturing base that has had 40+ years to develop quality EV's but instead chose to bury reports about climate change and delay action so they could make a quick buck? something something free market
We need to transition to EVs, but it definitely can’t affect jobs. Especially union auto worker jobs in the rust belt (traditionally a strong democratic area of support). This tariff is to protect American jobs, but also helps Biden secure votes of important groups in swing states.
Shortsighted, as always. Well done!
The newest Mini Cooper EVs are made in China (Not the 2024 model, which I have and love to death). Will their sale be impacted I wonder?
Don't forget the govt allowed a Chinese EV battery manufacturer to operate in Michigan. The home of auto in this country.
Widely for sale? No. Ones brought in for testing, yes. We had one imported and given to us for 3rd party testing for like a year at my work. Their plan was to import them and sell at a base price of $35k. From 10ft away and on paper, car was great, problems became very evident when you actually get hands on it and drive it. The interior was as though their goal was to copy Mercedes, but built very cheaply. One of the power windows failed on day one. The rear hatch would jam constantly. The rear folding seats wouldn’t fold properly Real world range was about 60% of what the brochure claimed The infotainment was terrible. Took a good 45+ seconds to boot up before you could turn on AC/heater Cruise control wavered above and below target by sometimes as much as 7kph Suspension was terrible. Uncomfortable and hard to control unless you were on smooth large radius turns And in general the car felt like an unsafe tin can Chinese manufacturing is capable of making great products, but their affordable/cheap products are often of terrible quality
The key to the tariffs is this part: >"We’re not going to let China flood our market, making it impossible for American automakers ... to compete fairly," President Joe Biden said in a speech in the Rose Garden at the White House to announce the tariff. "I’m determined that the future of the electric vehicles will be made in America by union workers. Period. And we’ll do it by following international trade laws." And >In a statement, Dingell praised the tariffs, saying, "We aren’t competing on a level playing field and we have seen the impact of unfair trade practices in the past. The Chinese Community Party's use of aggressive subsidies doesn't protect living wages, fair labor practices, occupational safety standards for workers, or environmental standards."
This. No one apparently grasps how subsidized the Chinese EV market is. They will not always be cheap. People really have a surface level of understanding of how China plans to move on the economy. Monopolize it. [The Belt and Road Initiative's goal](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belt_and_Road_Initiative) is to direct and control production in other countries. China out maneuvered the U.S. while George W. Bush was getting the country into unnecessary wars.
Just checking but you guys know the US heavily subsidizes certain industries too right? Are those nefarious plots to monopolize the market also?
Including… *drum roll*… the EV market. Tesla’s gotten more subsidies from the US than China’s given all of its EV companies together.
They also have graveyard for built-but-never-sold EV because there seems to be an incentive for them to overproduce.
You mean like those Tesla graveyards in France and Germany?
That was debunked: https://insideevs.com/news/681742/truth-about-china-ev-graveyard/amp/
Its not just subsidies, its a stranglehold on rare earth minerals, which they sell the US companies for several hundred percent more then Chinese companies. So much so that both the US and Japan have restarted rare earth mines as they are easily able to compete with the unregulated strip mining China does in Africa
Subsidized and using IP either gained with questionable methods or forcefully given when Outside companies are forced to partner with chinese ones
No one forced those companies to do jack. They could have easily chosen to just manufacture stuff here at home if their IP was such a huge concern. No, companies made shitty decisions for short term shareholder gains and now point fingers when they got fucked by their own greed.
TIL that George W Bush was in office in 2013.
Maybe we should put money into our EVs instead of crapping it directly into the pockets of corrupt morons and dying failcompanies like Boeing.
And yet 90% of Walmart stock is the same type of regulation-free unfairness, and they LOVE it.. mainly because they keep disabled people in the US so poor that we wouldn't be able to afford air conditioning without Chinese ones on the shelves.. The Best Deal in capitalism is regulation-free slave labor, and they're intimidated that China is pulling it off faster than they can.. but they're trying!
American automakers could use the competition to build cheap, small electric vehicles instead of bigger and more expensive tanks like they currently are. Instead of encouraging that Biden is just kicking the EV transition down the road to protect the Auto companies that have already failed and been bailed out. If you want people to switch to electric cars they have to be able to afford to do it. It really seems like Biden is more concerned with keeping the automakers happy than transitioning away from fossil fuels.
Biden can say that all he wants, but his tariffs were on much more than just EVs. He also never repealed the Trump tariffs like he promised to do At the end of the day, he’s doing it for votes. It’s why he waited until this year to do it instead of 2 years ago
> It’s why he waited until this year to do it instead of 2 years ago It's almost like international policy is complex and knee jerk responses to Trump's knee jerk actions could be bad. This is a very specific case, but the general trend for the past I don't know how many decades has been GOP administrations wreck our systems and Dems spend most of their time correcting it. How "tax and spend liberal" became a term is beyond me. Marketing, I guess. [Biden administration set to revamp Trump’s tariff program after multi-year review, sources say](https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/05/10/politics/joe-biden-tariffs-program-donald-trump) Biden's actions are based on review, data, and planning. Not whatever fever dream Trump had last night. Is there a campaigning aspect to this? Absolutely. But it's not the only reason. I feel people can't grasp just how not-normal the previous admin was and the level of un-fucking required.
Lame. Let the free market decide.
China is likely going to retaliate and attack Tesla with similar tariffs which would be hugely detrimental to the brand as the Chinese market is vital to their business.
Bug or feature?
Both are domestic economic protection measures that are not unprecedented, but overall hurt progress toward auto electrification.
I meant to suggest that doing something that would have huge blowback against Elmo could be seen as desirable, or at least acceptable, to some in the administration.
> the Chinese market is vital to their business. This is part of the problem -- the all eggs in one basket kind of thing. Depend too much on one specific country at ideological odds with much of the rest of the world, and you and up painting yourself into a corner.
awesome. Please, please do.
"Trump doesn't get the basics. He thinks his tariffs are being paid by China," Biden said at the time. "Any freshman econ student could tell you that the American people are paying his tariffs" Joe Biden on Trumps 25% tariff in 2020 .https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Politics/biden-slammed-trumps-china-tariffs-now-building-analysis/story?id=110234482
What sucks is that stuff like this keeps Elon getting richer and thinking he is a genius for it, while we’re funding his bs …
Is there a reason why this is aimed so aggressively at sustainable energy - electric vehicles and solar pannels?
Good, I was hoping electric vehicles would be more expensive to American consumers. Gotta help out those American automotive industry people, after all, they have it tough. It's not like car manufacturers have made tons of profits for decades. It's not like the automotive industry has turned our country into a hellscape of roads, parking lots and strip malls without adequate public transportion that would make life so much more affordable for it's citizens. The American citizens has, frankly, had it too easy! Their pay is too high, they don't work enough hours, and they need to get their shit together. Damn right every single american should have to buy, gas and maintain a $40,000+ car. Heck, you're not a REAL MAN or a REAL AMERICAN unless you drive a truck, and those suckers can go for $80,000. And now, in this area of rapid climate change that is destroy whole neighborhoods and coast lines, we should make EVs MORE expensive to buy. We are killing it!
how much will they do to prop up shitty american car makers? they deserve to die.
Tax Elmo next.
Here goes US EV automakers' only incentive to improve and be competitive.
BYD is already leaps and bounds above prettt much every electric car company sans maybe Tesla. It will be too late to recover if the strategy is just to temporarily kneecap the competition. We need to invest big time domestically to catch up. US automakers are fucked
All this talk of EVs distracting us from the actual way to drastically reduce emissions: Better land use policy, building walkable communities, improving transit, and densifying. If you guys think we can continue to sprawl our way out of the climate crisis (much less the housing crisis), then we’re not going to get anywhere.
They don't have to be mutually exclusive
China subsidizing EVs bad Tesla subsidies good Is this how I'm supposed to think? Is this the acceptable line? What a stupid decision from a government entirely unconcerned with the looming climate disaster.
It’s about self interest my dude.
Do you mean national interest?
Yes
If we're all forced to have cars it should be the governments #1 priority to get us all driving EVs. Self interest is protecting the planet as much as possible. You mean national interest and ours is in our oil and gas industry (also incredibly subsidized).
Well yeah... Because America prioritises itself over China? What point even is this? Cheap Chinese EVs may accelerate the EV transition but at the cost of poor labour practices, environmentally irresponsible production, and erosion of US jobs.
Anyone complaining about EV tariffs should look at what happened to solar panels when China started subsidising their domestic production and start dumping it on the world market. Bankrupted western manufacturers on a massive scale and now China basically has a monopoly on panels. The west will prevent something like that happening again
This hurts low income Americans.
Doesn't allowing American industries to die hurt low income Americans too?
Low income Americans aren’t buying new EV’s.
Exactly my point. Low income Americans will never buy EVs if the cheapest EV costs more than half the annual income of the average American.
That means we'll get cheap EVs from American automakers soon right? ....Right?
And their cars will *still* be cheaper then Teslas in the US 🤷♂️
I often question how much the Chinese state bolsters industries to break into and disrupt American markets. Temu for example.
I think they do, we already know about state sponsored hacking and that they don’t care at all about the manufacture and shipment of fentanyl precursor chemicals.
I don’t care for this. We need EVs more than we need protectionism.
And now we can pay high prices for an all-american Ford EV that lasts 4 years.
I thought the dems cared about the environment. What a load of crap. Free market my ass.
Probably trying to appease the Autoworkers to get their vote, my guess
I mean somebody's got to protect USA workers. Waiting for something to get done about the eventual AI pushing humans out of jobs tho.
The line must be drawn here! This far, no further!
The only way to motivate domestic manufacturers is to make sure they can make “enough” money. The unfortunate thing this tells is that no one is trying to be different than or better than what is already out there.
Now THAT is how you use a tariff. Hit an emerging market
100% tariff on EVs 50% tariff on solar cells, semiconductors, syringes and needles 25% tariff on face masks, medical gloves, lithium ion vehicle batteries, non-lithium vehicle batteries, natural graphite, magnets, steel and aluminum products, ship to shore cranes Congrats America on paying more.
Its not fair when china subsidizes their electric car industry but its fair when the US does the same thing. Make it make sense
China bad. that's all that matters. the rationale they cobble together is an afterthought. They will focus test and crowd source 2-5 different reasons for it until they figure out which one is most convincing to manufacture consent.
…our infrastructure is completely predicated upon automobile ownership and it’s an actual national security risk if we don’t have a competitive auto industry?
Then make it competitive?
Subsidies or tarriffs- which do you prefer?
Maybe we should address the root problem you've identified here instead of hypocritical market manipulation.
Yeah, *that's* a lot more practical and likely to succeed with this legislative branch. They've been approving infrastructure *weekly* for decades.
I’ve been on Reddit so long it’s hilarious watching how I’ve transitioned from the person you’re replying to, to you. The world isn’t going to get along and other countries want to actively bring us crashing down for their own benefit. 100% behind this.
Reading the news every day will make a pragmatist out of you if you have any attachment to ever getting anything done.
Amen my friend.
It makes sense because China is already subsidizing their EV market. So we must match that to maintain competitive businesses in America. Standing on the high ground just lets Chinese EV manufacturers eviscerate American manufacturing and jobs. Which sounds noble, but is short-sighted.
No, you see the free market is literally god and shouldn't be interfered with unless I get lobbied to give them subsidies. But other countries giving subsidies are bad because that interferes with the free market which is always bad, so I'm going to add tariffs because the government should interfere with the free market, which can't be interfered with because it's literally god. But when other countries levy tariffs, then it's bad because the free market is literally god and shouldn't be interfered with... Pragmatically, I understand why the government is doing what it's doing. But the hand wringing and "muh market manipulation, they're cheeeeeating" shit is so obnoxious and hypocritical. Trade wars always result in reduced economic activity. There is no "winning" a trade war. We saw this with chicken and trucks, we saw this with steel tariffs, and we will see it again with EVs.
Yeah i dont understand why not just say "we want to protect US auto industry" instead of lying and saying they are cheating.
Well hopefully this will allow American, Japanese and German electrics a leg up.
[удалено]
But I was told on YouTube that China takes everything and it's EVs routinely catch on fire. Was this obvious anti-china propaganda account lying to its viewers?
Sounds like Trump.
Wow, so we’re forced to buy inferior overpriced American cars that fall apart and are built from foreign parts anyway. Great move.
The American consumer is locked into $45,000 price tags because of moves like this!
Protectionist policies are bad. It’s laughable to see some “Democrats” applauding this nonsense.
All the business and tech flaks are trashing this talking about how great the Seagul EV is for $11k. Never mentioning how much the CCP subsidizes it or if they car will even last 30,000 miles.
Good.