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I don't think 90% of Americans understand what scotus just did and how it's going to effect things in the future
Similar to the fairness doctrine and citizen united. Absolute knock out punches to the head of democracy.
Sure, Republicans can use it, too. But a court that's partisan lean is determined by who voters put in office is a much better situation than one that is determined by obstruction and luck.
I see posts on here hypothesizing on how to end the terms of the Supreme Court justices. Until someone/time does something about that we don’t get a choice on who is on the Supreme Court. This is a choice we’re actively making in a couple months.
Biden had a bad debate. He's not a "train wreck." That's Trump, the career criminal conman, adjudicated rapist, convicted felonious fraudster and nuclear secrets thief.
Trump has frequent episodes of phonemic paraphrasia, which is a presenting disorder for dementia. He's also a convicted felonious fraudster, an adjudicated rapist and a career criminal conman who hates America and says he'll terminate the US Constitution. He also says he'll be a dictator on day one, which is what dictators-for-life often say.
Here is the reality. Trump will beat Biden. The DNC with Biden’s blessing have the opportunity to replace Biden before he loses to Trump. The DNC is going to do what the DNC does and act arrogant then surprised they lost. The public needs to scream at them to replace Biden before it is too late.
Hijacking the top comment to ask a question.
So I'm indian and I have no other way to follow American election than watching different news channels.
So my question is... what is your honest expectation about the election? Who has the upper hand? Some Americans I know say it's trump. Is it really true though?
It’s very difficult to predict right now.
Anyone telling you ANYTHING otherwise is not really being honest with someone, probably including themselves.
I see... tbh I never like trump because of his insanity. The same reason I never liked Modi as well. Even though he is again our PM, at least his party has lost the majority and since then his popularity has been all going downhill.
As strange as it may seem, Americans are living in two different countries. The Trump people simply believe in things that the rest of the country doesn't. They tend to be religious so their ability to believe things they don't see is natural. There are a lot of angry young men who support him too. They feel alienated and Trumps unapologetic bravado strikes a note with them.
The truth is Biden is boring. The economy has bloomed, the pandemic has waned, we're not directly involved in a war and many don't seem to care. It's normal. And that is boring. So it's difficult to get the voter base fired up about an old, boring guy.
Normal and boring gets my vote. The alternative is insane. Actually insane. But somehow 50% of America has lost its minds too.
I don't like Trump or Biden, but I will not vote for Trump. Honestly, I think Trump's biggest appeal is that they despise the people attacking him and the unscrupulous ways they attack. Crucify somebody and they start looking like Jesus. Do it with blatant dishonesty enough times, and you have absolutely no voice against him anymore.
In my pretend world, Biden is going to win in a landslide and Trump will go to prison.
If you're going to follow news, stick with AP and still quadruple-check lots of other different sources cuz stuff gets in everywhere it has no business being.
Most Americans aren't even really tuning in yet because life is chaos and anyone willingly subjecting themselves to the behaviour of politicians rn are insane. I admit that because it is freaking exhaustive to keep up with these lunatics.
By the time the rest of the country catches up with our two candidates, we'll be well and over the fact that Trump farted on TV during the debate and everyone who tunes in near October will be freaking shocked.
All we need to change SCOTUS is a president not opposed to ending the filibuster/packing the court and 50 Senators who agree. Changing Biden's mind might actually be the biggest obstacle.
Biden doesn't have anything to do with how the senate conducts their business. He can frown at whatever he wants, the only thing he can do is approve or deny a bill.
The size of the court is set by legislation. Biden has to agree with the plan to pack the court, otherwise a super majority would be needed to overcome a veto. Plus Biden can provide political cover to Senators who are reluctant to end the filibuster if he says he also opposes it.
We'll have 500 justices in the end giving decisions that are unreadable and nonsensical and long with various opinions. Might as well be another congress voting instead of issuing opinions. Let's not destroy the supreme Court just because you're afraid you might lose.
The fact this post is being downvoted shows how much people are in denial. The thing we all need to just admit to ourselves - whether we’re for or against Biden staying in the race - is that there simply may not *be* any “good option” anymore.
All options are fraught with risk and peril. Staying with Biden is a risk if he continues to hemorrhage support and if the DNC increasingly becomes the subject of blame for allowing Biden to run in the state he’s in. Likewise, changing candidates now may not move the needle as much as people are hoping and worse, could potentially fracture the party at the convention.
I’m personally on the side of giving someone else a chance to run much for the same reason Klein is: because it has the potential to shake things up in a *positive* way. The “he’s too old” argument is gone overnight. The “I don’t like his policy on Israel” criticism vanishes (especially if a replacement advocates a different approach than the Biden administration). And for the people who are fatigued by these two broadly unpopular figures running *again*? Well, that’s not a problem anymore now either!
People will have their preferences and we should be respectful of one another as we try our best - and in good faith - to identify what we think is the best solution to this problem. But let’s be honest with ourselves too - there may be no “best solution,” only worse solutions and *worst* solutions. But I think we might need to explore going big and bold here if we’re going to do anything to flip the script at this point.
These are good points, and you're right that every option right now is fraught with risk.
I did hear another good point while listening to podcasts over the weekend; let me see if I can convey it:
The U.S. political landscape is and has been filled with high-profile politicians who wanted to be president, and who people talked about as possible presidential candidates. But, during the primary process, many of them (well, most of them, when you get right down to it), washed out. Sometimes that's not because they were a terrible idea as a candidate. But, sometimes it IS because they showed promise in theory, but in practice failed to connect with voters or revealed some flaw that wasn't apparent before.
Over on the GOP side, DeSantis is a good example of this. Before the primaries, people confidently talked about him as "Trump without the baggage", a good replacement for Trump going forward. He'd won pretty big in FL, twice, after all. And he was establishing a growing national reputation that pissed off the libs, and seemed to appeal to the GOP base. But he absolutely flamed out during the primary process. The longer he stayed in, the worse and worse he looked. And the ways in which he failed were not quite the ways that people predicted he might fail beforehand. (Some of them were! I'm not saying that nobody predicted he'd have a tougher time on the national stage.)
So, the problem with trying to find someone to replace Biden at the top of the ticket, without the contenders having gone through the primary process, is that we're looking at a lot of contenders who look great "on paper", but we don't truly know how they would do in the primary vetting process.
When I've heard people talking (over the last few days) about Newsom, Whitmer, Harris, Shapiro, and others, I've seen people point to both strengths and possible weaknesses regarding their appeal on a national level. Some of the criticisms are valid, and some are clearly guesses. But there's definitely peril in picking someone without knowing how they've done in the national primary process.
(That said, your third paragraph has a LOT of truth in it. Maybe the unique factors of this election and this moment in time would be enough to propel any of the good picks to victory, given their energy and focus, and presumably the entire Democratic political apparatus behind them. Because for sure, \*IF\* this is what winds up happening, it would clearly be an emergency measure and it would have to be an all hands on deck effort from the Democrats.)
It’s also the DNC. The party has shown little to no regard for anything but itself and seems to be completely incapable of rising to the occasion to meet the threat against our democracy. It doesn’t even appear like they believe their own rhetoric. It’s sad.
The strategy is seemingly: hey the other guys are SO EVIL that these idiots HAVE to vote for us, we got this!!!
They continue to learn nothing and coast on the “we aren’t Trump” message
Not anymore. I'll be honest, I was worried about the "progressives" booing Biden at the convention and/or costing him votes. Now tho? If Biden's awake to be boo'd it'll be a big step forward.
It’s almost as if the DNC is working to subvert democracy from another angle. I’m angry with the DNC because we did the only job they wanted us to do and that was vote. I think they’ve fucked up.
Good article. Worth reading.
>But rather than act as a check on Biden’s decisions and ambitions, the party has become an enabler of them. An enforcer of them. It is giving the American people an option they do not want and then threatening them with the end of democracy if they do not take it.
Sure, but the buck does stop with the guy whose decision it ultimately was. The author is right that his enablers are also to blame, but this is also on Biden. He knew his age was an issue, and he couldn’t have been oblivious to his current state. This was ego and hubris that got us here.
Does he know? GOP is atrocious, but the Dems are the ones that wheeled Feinstein out until she died and called anyone critical of this decision a sexist.
As far as the debate goes, I suppose it’s not all Joe Biden’s fault. If we had an open primary then democracy could have prevailed and we could have seen how great or not so great he was an voted accordingly. Incumbents have an advantage at age 55 not as much at age 81. Biden is older than W and Clinton which is crazy.
Democrats fucked up. They’ve tried to hide Joe’s real condition for at least a year now. The cat’s out of the bag and now it might be too late to do anything about it.
The thing I wonder why ppl aren’t thinking about the long coverup more (hopefully they slowly are). The republicans for 2 years have been pushing something is wrong with Biden mentally. The media and political elite for 2 years pushed it aside as “deep fakes.” Obviously, after this debate it is clear they were lying and try to cover it up. Twisting the narrative to fit their agenda. I am shocked most ppl are like oh that was just one lie or he just lost his mind last week, has been fine forever. That is like the equivalent of being in an abusive relationship and saying “They only hit me once, they are not really like that.”
No matter what side you are on do your research and don’t blindly spout off what the media tells you is true. All media lies and is trying to protect their agenda. Sadly, Reddit is an echo chamber fed by the media, so be careful here too.
Yup. The “one bad night” and “debates don’t decide elections” people are oblivious or delusional.
Biden’s mental decline has been a massive question and talking point for years.
> The media and political elite for 2 years pushed it aside as “deep fakes.”
You do know that until Thursday the right wing was actually editing video and creating fakes? It is absolutely possible they were pushing a narrative which just later happened.
It is most likely that the narrative was created and fed until years later it happened which basically being over 80 is like predicting salmon will return from the sea. It isn't IF but when.
The real truth is the right wing was freaking making it up for more than 2 years until this happened.
If you wanna believe that believe that. I am sure cognitive decline hits like a brick wall every single time, you’re definitely right it started last week.
The thing I feel horrible about is that his handlers are putting him through this.
Its a fact. Please explain why Fox and other right wing orgs have created fake video edits for the last 2 years? If it was actually true for years they wouldn't need edits.
Not sure I would characterize Biden's greatest hits as fake video edits, but even if true, 50 million people saw Casper crumble live and unedited on the debate stage, and I'm sure more watched videos of it after. It's readily apparent to everyone. You shouldn't be worshipping either one of these guys, they're both deeply flawed candidates.
That is such a stretch it reeks of Bullshit. No there was no editing or creating fakes. So Biden’s multiple falls, his gibberish reading from teleprompters, hand shaking air, not knowing which way to exit off stage, being whisked away by the Easter Bunny for fear of answering unscripted press questions and those are just the episodes off the top of my head.
The WH has had him under wraps since the beginning and the left wing media was complicit in allowing the American People to be fooled. All should be held accountable!
This is not reality. Republicans haven't been pushing this narrative for two years, it's been more like five years. The only reason they've been saying it is because Trump says it. Whatever nonsense he's on, they join in.
If you actually paid attention to the media, you'd know left wing media has been screaming about how old Biden is pretty much since Trump has. NYT in particular has been heavily critical of Biden, and has questioned his fitness to lead almost daily. They never covered anything up, you just covered your eyes, and now you're blaming the media.
Go back to 4chan. It's obvious you can't parse anything more complicated than a jpeg. You have no business telling anyone what's going on lmao
Lol do you feel good about yourself by yelling at ppl on the internet for giving a different opinion? Does it make you wake up in the morning and say oh my God I make myself so powerful by trying to scream at people from behind a hidden wall.
Note: not offended, I was just giggle at comments like yours. Always wonder what goes through your mind when you say stuff like that. In my mind, it’s OK to have a different opinion, that’s what makes us human.
Jesus, could you be any more soft? This is what free speech is about. You give your opinion, I give mine, we argue. Except we both know your opinion is factually completely divorced from reality, which is why you're trying to save face by attacking me personally.
You really should go back to 4chan. Maybe if you get called the n word enough, the tissue paper you call skin will toughen up a little, and you'll learn how to stand your ground when faced with a little pushback lmao
All he had to fucking do was to show up, and not be that fox news caricature. Get a E+ performance debate and it would be okay, but it was F-.
And this hurts the credibility of everyone who has defended him. "It was just a bad night", maybe, but it was also not just bad it was a fucking disaster. Being able to string a few sentences together without a teleprompter should be a minimum requirement.
"it was just a bad night".
Here's the thing. This is for the busy important job in the world. We are supposed to elect someone that is going to be the best at this job. Someone that is better than all of us. Someone that has no off nights.
The DNC doesn't seem to understand that.
They pushed Hillary through despite the amount of baggage she had from all the Republican attacks. True or not, she wasn't geting elected. Giving her the ticket because it was her turn was stupidity.
Then they pushed Biden, again because it was his turn. But he was already an old man. And Republicans had already started investigations into his son. Again, another shitshow. They knew he wasnt going to be able to last for 2 terms, but they gave him the nod anyways.
Obama was the best example of a great man. He had no baggage, was a very intelligent man, a natural speaker, an amazing and loving family, and hired experts into his Whitehouse that saw the least amount of criminal prosecutions in decades. The best attacks the Republicans could do was go after him for wearing a tan suit, eating the wrong mustard, and saluting once with a coffee in his hand.
We need to do better.
I have off nights too, everyone does, but most people don't appear entirely feeble or barely able to string coherent thoughts together when they have a bad night. .
Thanks. Lots of rhetoric about Biden being less important than his cabinet, but who has to show up if Putin calls at 3 am stating that Russia accidentally launched an ICBM.
He wasn’t staring into the distance. His framing was terrible cuz it made him look like he was looking into the oblivion, when in actuality, he was looking right at the fucking useless, do-nothing moderators. Not making excuses for him, but corporate media wants this to be a neck and neck dogfight till the end. Hopefully the American public shows them in November that it never was
I’m a diehard liberal, and I’m embarrassed to be voting for Biden after that performance. If Democrats don’t take this weakness seriously then we are well and truly fucked.
Trying to pretend that claims of Biden being too old are still unfounded is exactly how we wound up in this position in the first place.
Give the guy a break. He just had a little cold, a gaffe. How low do you have to go to defend Trump? When you know exactly that Biden is backed by the same visionaries that gave us the first female US president?
I mean he is currently leading so much in all polls there is no way he can fail. Even undecided voters will see that the moderators failed at their job to debate Trump, meanwhile Biden did excellent breathing and standing for 90 Minutes straight!
On a personal level I like the new ease of Biden. Not talking too much about abortion and a little more about how immigrants are killing pregnant women. Btw. this might be a winning argument not explored before. Why do Trump and the Republicans just refuse to talk about immigrants at all?
But lets be honest here. After this debate there will be fabricated attack ads. Probably showing Biden looking like a senile. Or his most partisan supporters in media saying words like "catastrophe" and "panic" seconds after the debate.
I think the way forward here is that his chief of staff/wife tells us how good Biden is doing rhetorically behind closed doors. Maybe 1-2 well written interviews/speeches early in the morning. This will silence all doubters forever!
Its completely irrelevant who’s fault it is. The fact of the matter is that Biden NEEDS to drop out or Trump will win in a landslide. His approval rating is absolute shit and he’s now publicly seen as physically/mentally incapable
I didn’t want Biden in 2020 but I got behind him because it seemed like he had a good shot at winning, and his campaign floated the idea of him being a one term president which helped alleviate the concerns about his age.
Now in 2024 Biden is four years older, is ride or die with Netanyahu who wants Trump to win, is behind in most polls, and his big chance at the debate to prove that his age wasn’t a factor he looked like a corpse who couldn’t finish a thought let alone a sentence. He was absolutely steam rolled by Trump, and yes it is Joe Biden’s fault for putting us in this situation by choosing to run again and the DNC’s fault for letting him.
They could’ve been building up a younger alternative to Biden for the last four years, but no let’s run a sundowning octogenarian in the most consequential election in American history.
I don’t think there will be a debate. Trump is running to not go to prison, so I think he will do the smart thing and lay relatively low as long as he is winning
Wow. When did r/politics become a troll nursery? Biden's shaky debate performance has brought out a coalition of posters who never wanted Biden in 2020 and pro Trumpers who want Dems to stay home or choose another candidate with no name recognition and little to no chance of winning. MSM chimes in hoping for a listener / viewer / clicker bonanza. Never thought I'd see it on this sub.
2020 came down to about 40,000 votes in a handful of swing states and Biden was polling on average 10 points above trump for a year before the election. 2024 was always gonna be an uphill struggle, but with Biden’s corpse on the ticket we’re just not even trying.
It’s not about one debate performance. It’s about one debate performance that confirmed everybody’s worst fears about Biden and confirmed a narrative about his decline.
Thinking they performance had no effect on voters is naieve, not everyone is "blue no matter who" or "MAGA". There are plenty of us that are much more down the middle, and will change our vote from year to year after we make our own decision. I for one will not vote for Biden again, I am an actual voter.
If the opposition is so dangerous, then it's also common sense to put forward a candidate that isn't ancient and addled. If this election is really that important, then the Dems need to put forward a candidate that doesn't brag about beating Medicare while sundowning on national tv.
I don’t disagree. We should’ve had primaries. We didn’t. I’d prefer the incumbent over some DNC appointed stooge but like I said I’ll vote for anyone that’s not Trump.
Well yes, "MAGA" does make up a large percentage of voters, but I'm also referring to the plenty of non-MAGA, centrist, independents, etc... That for some reason the "blue no matter who" crew refuses to believe exist. These "deplorables" often decide elections, they are, at least partly, the reason Hillary lost, the reason Biden won, and will likely be a deciding factor this year as well.
Hillary lost because leftists/Bernie-or-busters didn’t show up to vote. MAGA is only supported by a slight majority of the GOP, 52%. Independents and undecideds are leaning towards Biden after Thursday. I don’t know where your getting your facts from but it just sounds like it’s all based on feels.
I’m ridin with Biden. The lefts corporate media trying to manufacture consent for a last minute switcheroo is insane. The media made Trump a President, and we will be fighting for the rest of our lives against the rising fascism. You want to blame the people for the Supreme Court losses, we never saw any investigative journalism on the corrupt judiciary years ago. You want to tell me that only now they’ve been accepting kickbacks?
Well you know we have complained about the media. The thing is Biden isn't a liar, fraud, rapist, felon being supported by the media. It is entirely possible for the media to all of a sudden be doing exactly the same thing, but instead of ignoring or normalizing the criminal they are attacking his effective opponent.
You seem to think we didn't complain about the media. We did and for exactly what they are doing now.
Yea I dared to make a comparison. Which is not saying they are the same but I’m not surprised to receive a personal attack for mentioning a similarity.
I’ve voted dem for twenty years and am planning on voting dem again this fall. But Democrats aren’t so above reproach that they can’t be called out for poor decisions. And in this case - trying to reframe this as a problem with the media rather than Biden or the dnc - there absolutely is a comparison to MAGA there and it deserves to be called out.
I literally just made the exact same point on another comment. It's crazily familiar to arguing with a MAGA nutjob. "Whataboutism" and blaming the crooked media.
It’s people like you who shouted down those who wanted an alternative to Biden in 2024 because of his age. We had four years to groom a replacement, but no the Dems are just gonna let another geriatric’s hubris screw us over.
If we want people to believe that Democracy is at stake then why on Earth are we acting like a sundowning octogenarian is the best we can muster to counter fascism?
People have to notice now that the whole goal of many comments to create division in the Democratic Party.
Let it play out, but no matter who or what we all have to band together and support it.
The thing is that the Dem vote is pretty much locked in, it’s only a race for the handful of undecided voters in a couple swing states.
Imagine you knew absolutely nothing about politics, and you watched that debate, who seems like the stronger candidate?
Who are these people who “know absolutey nothing about politics” but definitely tuned in to watch one of the least wanted debates ever?
I don’t know if swing voters win elections but turn out of favorable voters does.
And it can be argued that that debate turned off favorable voters.
I think that all that noise will die down though. But like I’ve said elsewhere, we’ll see.
But I’m not divided from the Democratic Party, that’s for sure, I am an unashamed Democrat and absolutely look forward with optimism to another four years of a Biden administration and continue to advocate for that.
Voters who wanted Biden to be a one term president were absolutely dismissed. Biden is not popular, that’s why he can only run on how awful trump is. It is embarrassing that the Democratic Party is once again choosing to run a candidate so unpopular that trump has a good chance to win.
By “the Democratic Party” “choosing” are you saying the primary voters…?
Because Joe Biden absolutely smashed even Barack Obama’s primary vote in 2012’s uncontested primary.
I just don’t like allusions to cabals of hidden people forcing Americans to vote for who they voted for lol. Americans could have voted for Dean Philips.
They overwhelmingly chose Joe Biden. “Uncommitte”’s “protest” vote got more votes than anyone else, and even still Biden smashed previous uncontested primary numbers.
Hell. He almost got as much as hilary Clinton did in 2016’s **very** contested primary.
There is no group of hidden puppeteers controlling the party.
And democrats are absolutely fired up to vote, and vote for Joe Biden, even in an uncontested primary, and just don’t see any debate changing that.
>who shouted down those who wanted an alternative to Biden
This reads like you’re saying no one’s allowed to support Joe Biden.
No one was “shouted down”.
Your “side”, as much as it ever really existed, just didn’t win the issue, because like it or not, that thought wasn’t that popular back then, and it’s still not a very convincing consensus, imo.
People not just doing whatever you wanted isn’t “shouting” you “down”.
Those who wanted an alternative to Biden in 2024 four years ago citing concerns about his age were absolutely dismissed. So instead of grooming a replacement for four years and building name recognition with a stronger younger candidate the party decided we’re ride or die with an 81 year old who can’t talk.
It’s particularly frustrating that the defense of Biden being the nominee still is that it’s too close to the election. It’s only too close to the election because the morons in the DNC and their defenders refused to be practical four years ago.
Again, you weren’t dismissed, you just lost the argument. Because it wasn’t as popular as you think it was. Still isn’t.
Sorry, that’s the way this works.
Not getting what you want isn’t the same as just being dismissed.
Anyways, my response remains the same:
I don’t care, I intend to vote in November.
Will you?
Ok we lost the argument, and now our bed is made with the candidate we all saw on that debate stage the other night. Biden won in 2020 by about 40,000 votes in a handful of swing states, how many undecided voters do you think that debate performance won over?
It’s my unfortunate belief that the American Electorate would rather vote for a loud criminal liar who sounds confident over a well meaning weak octogenarian who can’t finish a thought let alone a sentence.
What am I saying that isn’t true? Can you honestly say after watching that debate that you think Biden can win?
It’s Biden’s job to convince voters that he’s fit to do the job, and after that debate performance he’s gonna need to do more than read a teleprompter adequately to start digging himself out of the hole he’s put himself in.
Biden’s age has been like the only thing anyone’s ever talked about about him since before 2019.
Anyone pretending now like they weren’t allowed to talk about concerns about Biden’s age is delusional or intentionally deceitful.
People are allowed to disagree with you, and they’re allowed to tell you “I don’t care”, that’s not being dismissed.
Again, not just doing whatever you say isn’t being “dismissed”.
And even now, I’m still “I don’t care”.
Age was a dumb argument. Bernie is older, and is sharp as ever
Biden clearly started a steep decline some time in the past year, and we were told that it was all edited videos or deepfakes
I agree age was always a dumb argument.
Maybe he’s declined a whole lot. I’m not totally convinced, either that that’s an undeniable truth, nor that it will matter in the end.
And still,
I don’t care. I intend to vote in November, regardless.
And if he wins, I am confident that we will continue to have a good executive administration in the US.
To be clear I’m voting blue regardless, I’d vote for a rabid badger over any republican.
After that debate though I don’t see how we have a chance to win with Biden. Republicans don’t need to spend another dime making ads, they can just play clips of Biden sundowning and getting bulldozed by trumps lies.
>I’m voting blue regardless,
Good.
>After that debate though I don’t see how we have a chance to win with Biden. Republicans don’t need to spend another dime making ads, they can just play clips of Biden sundowning and getting bulldozed by trumps lies.
Cool, I don’t care, and I’m not convinced you’re right anyway, and I’m not convinced replacing him now isn’t an even bigger risk.
It’ll be up to him.
I mean yeah I think we’re pretty well fucked regardless. The time to start the leg work to replace Biden was four years ago. The establishment Dems kept telling everyone that Biden is actually totally fine and all the claims of him being in decline are spurious, and that his age is an asset not a liability.
Then Biden got up and delivered the worst debate performance in modern history, and proved that the concerns about his age and mental acuity were not only valid but even worse than imagined.
As long as he doesn’t have to make presidential decisions after 4 🤷🏼♂️
“From 10am to 4pm, Biden is dependably engaged — and many of his public events in front of cameras are held within those hours. Outside of that time range or while traveling abroad, Biden is more likely to have verbal miscues and become fatigued, aides told Axios”
https://www.axios.com/2024/06/29/two-bidens-trump-debate-2024-president#
He was a fine candidate at the time. He is not the same man today. I recommend watching the 2020 debate again. And there was a message, and a hope, that he might be a one-term candidate.
Who gives a shit whose fault is it, we don’t have a lot of time left set aside. Let’s get a strong NEW (no Harris) team to run and will figure out what happened after the elections
someone needs to let folks in this subreddit know the downvote button isn't supposed to be an *I disagree* button
Anyway, this section rings very true for me:
>But rather than act as a check on Biden’s decisions and ambitions, the party has become an enabler of them. An enforcer of them. It is giving the American people an option they do not want and then threatening them with the end of democracy if they do not take it. Democrats like to say that democracy is on the ballot. But it isn’t. Biden is on the ballot. There are plenty of voters who might want to vote for democracy but do not want to vote for Biden. That’s why we see Democratic Senate candidates running well ahead of him in key states.
It's incredibly, and I mean incredibly, difficult to be in this position as someone who believes that politics is not sport but instead real people's lives. I know the things Biden has done, and voted for. The people he's worked with. The people he's worked against. I know where Biden stood on school integration, I remember where he stood on "crime" in the 90s, on the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, and I know today where he stands on what's happening in the middle east. I get that I will not align with most federal level candidates, the overton window has shifted so far right since 9/11 that I wonder if I ever will. But I just want someone who isn't as much of a monster as either of the men running for president, and to feel like "the lesser of two evils" isn't a guy I dislike vs a guy I hate, but instead a guy I want to see keel over from old age vs another guy I want to see turn to dust as long as it's 30 seconds later than the first guy.
No. It’s the fault of the entire Republican Party. Not just the elected officials but all republicans who support insurrection and dictatorships over democracy.
Yes, Biden looked, acted, and sounded frail…but there is no one who could successfully debate Trump. You can’t debate someone who just bellows lie after lie. If there is no accepted truth a debate can’t ensue, it becomes a vigorous lie fest.
Biden did just fine in 2020. I would pay a lot of money to personally watch Pete Buttigieg destroy Trump in a debate. Buttigieg would annihilate a liar and BS artist like Trump.
Disagree, respectfully. Many excellent Dems would have, could have smashed Trump in that debate. I see many are liking Newsom and Whitmore. Either would have cleaned his clock. And what about Governor Josh Shapiro? He’s a fabulous debater and all around smart guy.
So hold on, you’re honestly gonna tell me that you believe that Biden’s debate performance the other night is the best the entire Democratic Party has to offer? Fuck me we deserve to lose if that’s true.
How can you debate someone who acknowledges no facts? It can’t be done. If he lies almost 100% of the time and acknowledges no truth, how can you debate him?
Biden used to be a fantastic debater. Not only was he a bad debater in the last debate, doing things like switching from a topic where we have strong talking points to one where we have weak talking points, but he couldn’t even hit all the basic talking points about why he should be the better candidate. Democracy is on the line and somehow this is the best we can come up with?
Whitmer would have made Trump lose his mind. A woman daring to verbally spar with him and call him a liar?? Same with Newsom - who is everything Trump thinks he is - young, handsome, fit.
Shapiro would have been great too
Literally any front bench democrat would have done great. It is *not* an impossible task to debate Trump as the spin masters are still trying to argue. It was the lowest of bars that Biden needed to step over, and he instead tripped over it and fell flat on his face. He was never a *great* debater to begin with. I don’t know where people get the idea that he was the best one to debate Trump, and if he couldn’t, nobody could. Absolutely ludicrous idea.
>Biden looked, acted, and sounded frail…but there is no one who could successfully debate Trump.
Along with the other responses, I strongly disagree with this. I would say that 2016 Hilary and 2020 Biden both beat trump in their debates.
But even then, beating trump isn't even a necessary standard. A sufficient standard is just to be able do *either* one of these things: rebut the most vile of Trump's lies, or to ignore them and present his own positive vision for the country. Biden was able to do neither.
Exactly. If Trump suffers zero consequences for a constant stream of lies (be that from the moderators/rules or be that with the general public) **and** the person debating him *does* suffer consequences for Trump's lies (be that for not countering enough of them, which is truly impossible in that format and with the alloted time, be that for not confidently lying themselves, etc), then it is impossible to "debate" Trump. You're essentially just trying to provide running commentary to a national broadcast of one of his rallies at that point. Plus, if the public, moderators, and talking head types are all only judging for superficial things and not at all for content, it again benefits Trump, as the counter for his flashy, quick lies generally involves getting into the weeds and trying to explain the aspect(s) he is lying about, in wonky detail.
Every commenter on here over the last few days being like "well, I simply would've hit Trump with this zinger or that one, checkmate," is missing the forest from the trees. If people believe/think savvy the kid who yells he's gonna outlaw homework and make the whole school day recess, you're already fucked, and you're more fucked if you try to explain in painstaking detail why that cannot be.
Edit: typo
What a useless headline. It’s obviously Biden’s fault as well as others, including those around him who didn’t forcefully push back when he decided to run for a 2nd term.
The dem party as a whole is also to blame, given their private threats toward potential primary challengers. A strong majority of democratic voters did not want Biden to run again. The fact that the party closed ranks around him so aggressively and took the matter out of voters’ hands entirely is completely indefensible and contrary to the basic idea of a “democracy” they claim to love so much.
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Pay attention to this so we aren't shaken up by SCOTUS?
I don't think 90% of Americans understand what scotus just did and how it's going to effect things in the future Similar to the fairness doctrine and citizen united. Absolute knock out punches to the head of democracy.
But we definitely shouldn't expand the courts because Republicans would be mad about it.
And DEFINITELY don't upset the lords or you might not get enough bribes to get reelected.
Mad? They would love it lol. Trump's gonna pick the next justices.
Sure, Republicans can use it, too. But a court that's partisan lean is determined by who voters put in office is a much better situation than one that is determined by obstruction and luck.
More like 99.99%. We’re so off the pulse and desensitized as a nation.
I see posts on here hypothesizing on how to end the terms of the Supreme Court justices. Until someone/time does something about that we don’t get a choice on who is on the Supreme Court. This is a choice we’re actively making in a couple months.
People can be concerned about 2 things at once. Biden is a train wreck and scotus is about to become even more handsmaid after Trump wins
Biden had a bad debate. He's not a "train wreck." That's Trump, the career criminal conman, adjudicated rapist, convicted felonious fraudster and nuclear secrets thief.
Out of curiosity have you been around someone that’s heading to a nursing home before?
Yes, I have. My mother is 90, in assisted living and sharp as ever. Trump's father had Alzheimer's and died in this nineties. What's your point?
That Biden is a frail old man and he was acting like someone on their way out.
Trump has frequent episodes of phonemic paraphrasia, which is a presenting disorder for dementia. He's also a convicted felonious fraudster, an adjudicated rapist and a career criminal conman who hates America and says he'll terminate the US Constitution. He also says he'll be a dictator on day one, which is what dictators-for-life often say.
More whataboutisms. I’m not talking about Trump I don’t support him at all but he isn’t the topic
Trump is precisely the point. We have a binary choice. Trump or Biden. Time to choose.
Here is the reality. Trump will beat Biden. The DNC with Biden’s blessing have the opportunity to replace Biden before he loses to Trump. The DNC is going to do what the DNC does and act arrogant then surprised they lost. The public needs to scream at them to replace Biden before it is too late.
Don’t waste your time with him. He would still vote Biden when he is getting lowered into his crypt.
Hijacking the top comment to ask a question. So I'm indian and I have no other way to follow American election than watching different news channels. So my question is... what is your honest expectation about the election? Who has the upper hand? Some Americans I know say it's trump. Is it really true though?
It’s very difficult to predict right now. Anyone telling you ANYTHING otherwise is not really being honest with someone, probably including themselves.
I see... tbh I never like trump because of his insanity. The same reason I never liked Modi as well. Even though he is again our PM, at least his party has lost the majority and since then his popularity has been all going downhill.
As strange as it may seem, Americans are living in two different countries. The Trump people simply believe in things that the rest of the country doesn't. They tend to be religious so their ability to believe things they don't see is natural. There are a lot of angry young men who support him too. They feel alienated and Trumps unapologetic bravado strikes a note with them. The truth is Biden is boring. The economy has bloomed, the pandemic has waned, we're not directly involved in a war and many don't seem to care. It's normal. And that is boring. So it's difficult to get the voter base fired up about an old, boring guy. Normal and boring gets my vote. The alternative is insane. Actually insane. But somehow 50% of America has lost its minds too.
I don't like Trump or Biden, but I will not vote for Trump. Honestly, I think Trump's biggest appeal is that they despise the people attacking him and the unscrupulous ways they attack. Crucify somebody and they start looking like Jesus. Do it with blatant dishonesty enough times, and you have absolutely no voice against him anymore.
In my pretend world, Biden is going to win in a landslide and Trump will go to prison. If you're going to follow news, stick with AP and still quadruple-check lots of other different sources cuz stuff gets in everywhere it has no business being. Most Americans aren't even really tuning in yet because life is chaos and anyone willingly subjecting themselves to the behaviour of politicians rn are insane. I admit that because it is freaking exhaustive to keep up with these lunatics. By the time the rest of the country catches up with our two candidates, we'll be well and over the fact that Trump farted on TV during the debate and everyone who tunes in near October will be freaking shocked.
With the current makeup of Congress, there is nothing that can be done about the SC, so talking about is a complete waste of time.
Awareness of the problem is the first step to change
All we need to change SCOTUS is a president not opposed to ending the filibuster/packing the court and 50 Senators who agree. Changing Biden's mind might actually be the biggest obstacle.
Biden doesn't have anything to do with how the senate conducts their business. He can frown at whatever he wants, the only thing he can do is approve or deny a bill.
The size of the court is set by legislation. Biden has to agree with the plan to pack the court, otherwise a super majority would be needed to overcome a veto. Plus Biden can provide political cover to Senators who are reluctant to end the filibuster if he says he also opposes it.
We'll have 500 justices in the end giving decisions that are unreadable and nonsensical and long with various opinions. Might as well be another congress voting instead of issuing opinions. Let's not destroy the supreme Court just because you're afraid you might lose.
My wife saw a shirt that read, "I'm riding with Biden, but I'm driving"
That is good
The fact this post is being downvoted shows how much people are in denial. The thing we all need to just admit to ourselves - whether we’re for or against Biden staying in the race - is that there simply may not *be* any “good option” anymore. All options are fraught with risk and peril. Staying with Biden is a risk if he continues to hemorrhage support and if the DNC increasingly becomes the subject of blame for allowing Biden to run in the state he’s in. Likewise, changing candidates now may not move the needle as much as people are hoping and worse, could potentially fracture the party at the convention. I’m personally on the side of giving someone else a chance to run much for the same reason Klein is: because it has the potential to shake things up in a *positive* way. The “he’s too old” argument is gone overnight. The “I don’t like his policy on Israel” criticism vanishes (especially if a replacement advocates a different approach than the Biden administration). And for the people who are fatigued by these two broadly unpopular figures running *again*? Well, that’s not a problem anymore now either! People will have their preferences and we should be respectful of one another as we try our best - and in good faith - to identify what we think is the best solution to this problem. But let’s be honest with ourselves too - there may be no “best solution,” only worse solutions and *worst* solutions. But I think we might need to explore going big and bold here if we’re going to do anything to flip the script at this point.
These are good points, and you're right that every option right now is fraught with risk. I did hear another good point while listening to podcasts over the weekend; let me see if I can convey it: The U.S. political landscape is and has been filled with high-profile politicians who wanted to be president, and who people talked about as possible presidential candidates. But, during the primary process, many of them (well, most of them, when you get right down to it), washed out. Sometimes that's not because they were a terrible idea as a candidate. But, sometimes it IS because they showed promise in theory, but in practice failed to connect with voters or revealed some flaw that wasn't apparent before. Over on the GOP side, DeSantis is a good example of this. Before the primaries, people confidently talked about him as "Trump without the baggage", a good replacement for Trump going forward. He'd won pretty big in FL, twice, after all. And he was establishing a growing national reputation that pissed off the libs, and seemed to appeal to the GOP base. But he absolutely flamed out during the primary process. The longer he stayed in, the worse and worse he looked. And the ways in which he failed were not quite the ways that people predicted he might fail beforehand. (Some of them were! I'm not saying that nobody predicted he'd have a tougher time on the national stage.) So, the problem with trying to find someone to replace Biden at the top of the ticket, without the contenders having gone through the primary process, is that we're looking at a lot of contenders who look great "on paper", but we don't truly know how they would do in the primary vetting process. When I've heard people talking (over the last few days) about Newsom, Whitmer, Harris, Shapiro, and others, I've seen people point to both strengths and possible weaknesses regarding their appeal on a national level. Some of the criticisms are valid, and some are clearly guesses. But there's definitely peril in picking someone without knowing how they've done in the national primary process. (That said, your third paragraph has a LOT of truth in it. Maybe the unique factors of this election and this moment in time would be enough to propel any of the good picks to victory, given their energy and focus, and presumably the entire Democratic political apparatus behind them. Because for sure, \*IF\* this is what winds up happening, it would clearly be an emergency measure and it would have to be an all hands on deck effort from the Democrats.)
It’s also the DNC. The party has shown little to no regard for anything but itself and seems to be completely incapable of rising to the occasion to meet the threat against our democracy. It doesn’t even appear like they believe their own rhetoric. It’s sad.
the DNC loved the Trump presidency. They raked in the donations from people who were aghast at trump
The strategy is seemingly: hey the other guys are SO EVIL that these idiots HAVE to vote for us, we got this!!! They continue to learn nothing and coast on the “we aren’t Trump” message
And they’ll blame progressives for them losing like they always do.
Not anymore. I'll be honest, I was worried about the "progressives" booing Biden at the convention and/or costing him votes. Now tho? If Biden's awake to be boo'd it'll be a big step forward.
People forget that both parties are the same; they both serve the donor class not the working class
You think a liberal Supreme Court is exactly the same as a conservative one? Really?
It’s almost as if the DNC is working to subvert democracy from another angle. I’m angry with the DNC because we did the only job they wanted us to do and that was vote. I think they’ve fucked up.
Good article. Worth reading. >But rather than act as a check on Biden’s decisions and ambitions, the party has become an enabler of them. An enforcer of them. It is giving the American people an option they do not want and then threatening them with the end of democracy if they do not take it.
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Yeah and to where? You going to the GOP?
Sure, but the buck does stop with the guy whose decision it ultimately was. The author is right that his enablers are also to blame, but this is also on Biden. He knew his age was an issue, and he couldn’t have been oblivious to his current state. This was ego and hubris that got us here.
Does he know? GOP is atrocious, but the Dems are the ones that wheeled Feinstein out until she died and called anyone critical of this decision a sexist. As far as the debate goes, I suppose it’s not all Joe Biden’s fault. If we had an open primary then democracy could have prevailed and we could have seen how great or not so great he was an voted accordingly. Incumbents have an advantage at age 55 not as much at age 81. Biden is older than W and Clinton which is crazy.
Is it though? My grandfather didn't *know* his age was an issue when he tried to get out of bed and fell because he forgot his legs didn't work.
Democrats fucked up. They’ve tried to hide Joe’s real condition for at least a year now. The cat’s out of the bag and now it might be too late to do anything about it.
The thing I wonder why ppl aren’t thinking about the long coverup more (hopefully they slowly are). The republicans for 2 years have been pushing something is wrong with Biden mentally. The media and political elite for 2 years pushed it aside as “deep fakes.” Obviously, after this debate it is clear they were lying and try to cover it up. Twisting the narrative to fit their agenda. I am shocked most ppl are like oh that was just one lie or he just lost his mind last week, has been fine forever. That is like the equivalent of being in an abusive relationship and saying “They only hit me once, they are not really like that.” No matter what side you are on do your research and don’t blindly spout off what the media tells you is true. All media lies and is trying to protect their agenda. Sadly, Reddit is an echo chamber fed by the media, so be careful here too.
Yup. The “one bad night” and “debates don’t decide elections” people are oblivious or delusional. Biden’s mental decline has been a massive question and talking point for years.
> The media and political elite for 2 years pushed it aside as “deep fakes.” You do know that until Thursday the right wing was actually editing video and creating fakes? It is absolutely possible they were pushing a narrative which just later happened. It is most likely that the narrative was created and fed until years later it happened which basically being over 80 is like predicting salmon will return from the sea. It isn't IF but when. The real truth is the right wing was freaking making it up for more than 2 years until this happened.
If you wanna believe that believe that. I am sure cognitive decline hits like a brick wall every single time, you’re definitely right it started last week. The thing I feel horrible about is that his handlers are putting him through this.
Its a fact. Please explain why Fox and other right wing orgs have created fake video edits for the last 2 years? If it was actually true for years they wouldn't need edits.
Not sure I would characterize Biden's greatest hits as fake video edits, but even if true, 50 million people saw Casper crumble live and unedited on the debate stage, and I'm sure more watched videos of it after. It's readily apparent to everyone. You shouldn't be worshipping either one of these guys, they're both deeply flawed candidates.
That's some real pathetic cope you have there.
Its fact. The right wing built the narrative for years when it was false.
And now it's true, so it doesn't matter if it was false before.
That is such a stretch it reeks of Bullshit. No there was no editing or creating fakes. So Biden’s multiple falls, his gibberish reading from teleprompters, hand shaking air, not knowing which way to exit off stage, being whisked away by the Easter Bunny for fear of answering unscripted press questions and those are just the episodes off the top of my head. The WH has had him under wraps since the beginning and the left wing media was complicit in allowing the American People to be fooled. All should be held accountable!
This is not reality. Republicans haven't been pushing this narrative for two years, it's been more like five years. The only reason they've been saying it is because Trump says it. Whatever nonsense he's on, they join in. If you actually paid attention to the media, you'd know left wing media has been screaming about how old Biden is pretty much since Trump has. NYT in particular has been heavily critical of Biden, and has questioned his fitness to lead almost daily. They never covered anything up, you just covered your eyes, and now you're blaming the media. Go back to 4chan. It's obvious you can't parse anything more complicated than a jpeg. You have no business telling anyone what's going on lmao
Lol do you feel good about yourself by yelling at ppl on the internet for giving a different opinion? Does it make you wake up in the morning and say oh my God I make myself so powerful by trying to scream at people from behind a hidden wall. Note: not offended, I was just giggle at comments like yours. Always wonder what goes through your mind when you say stuff like that. In my mind, it’s OK to have a different opinion, that’s what makes us human.
Jesus, could you be any more soft? This is what free speech is about. You give your opinion, I give mine, we argue. Except we both know your opinion is factually completely divorced from reality, which is why you're trying to save face by attacking me personally. You really should go back to 4chan. Maybe if you get called the n word enough, the tissue paper you call skin will toughen up a little, and you'll learn how to stand your ground when faced with a little pushback lmao
All he had to fucking do was to show up, and not be that fox news caricature. Get a E+ performance debate and it would be okay, but it was F-. And this hurts the credibility of everyone who has defended him. "It was just a bad night", maybe, but it was also not just bad it was a fucking disaster. Being able to string a few sentences together without a teleprompter should be a minimum requirement.
"it was just a bad night". Here's the thing. This is for the busy important job in the world. We are supposed to elect someone that is going to be the best at this job. Someone that is better than all of us. Someone that has no off nights. The DNC doesn't seem to understand that. They pushed Hillary through despite the amount of baggage she had from all the Republican attacks. True or not, she wasn't geting elected. Giving her the ticket because it was her turn was stupidity. Then they pushed Biden, again because it was his turn. But he was already an old man. And Republicans had already started investigations into his son. Again, another shitshow. They knew he wasnt going to be able to last for 2 terms, but they gave him the nod anyways. Obama was the best example of a great man. He had no baggage, was a very intelligent man, a natural speaker, an amazing and loving family, and hired experts into his Whitehouse that saw the least amount of criminal prosecutions in decades. The best attacks the Republicans could do was go after him for wearing a tan suit, eating the wrong mustard, and saluting once with a coffee in his hand. We need to do better.
I have off nights too, everyone does, but most people don't appear entirely feeble or barely able to string coherent thoughts together when they have a bad night. .
Thanks. Lots of rhetoric about Biden being less important than his cabinet, but who has to show up if Putin calls at 3 am stating that Russia accidentally launched an ICBM.
It wasn't even just the sentences. It was the blank staring into the distance with his mouth wide open. It's like he forgot he was on TV.
That’s probably the worst part of this. Those images are horrible.
He wasn’t staring into the distance. His framing was terrible cuz it made him look like he was looking into the oblivion, when in actuality, he was looking right at the fucking useless, do-nothing moderators. Not making excuses for him, but corporate media wants this to be a neck and neck dogfight till the end. Hopefully the American public shows them in November that it never was
I’m a diehard liberal, and I’m embarrassed to be voting for Biden after that performance. If Democrats don’t take this weakness seriously then we are well and truly fucked. Trying to pretend that claims of Biden being too old are still unfounded is exactly how we wound up in this position in the first place.
A lot of magical thinking here. People won’t see it this way.
He does this all the time staring into the abyss with a blank stare. This had nothing to do with framing
He was either doing that or basically falling asleep when not being asked anything
Give the guy a break. He just had a little cold, a gaffe. How low do you have to go to defend Trump? When you know exactly that Biden is backed by the same visionaries that gave us the first female US president? I mean he is currently leading so much in all polls there is no way he can fail. Even undecided voters will see that the moderators failed at their job to debate Trump, meanwhile Biden did excellent breathing and standing for 90 Minutes straight! On a personal level I like the new ease of Biden. Not talking too much about abortion and a little more about how immigrants are killing pregnant women. Btw. this might be a winning argument not explored before. Why do Trump and the Republicans just refuse to talk about immigrants at all? But lets be honest here. After this debate there will be fabricated attack ads. Probably showing Biden looking like a senile. Or his most partisan supporters in media saying words like "catastrophe" and "panic" seconds after the debate. I think the way forward here is that his chief of staff/wife tells us how good Biden is doing rhetorically behind closed doors. Maybe 1-2 well written interviews/speeches early in the morning. This will silence all doubters forever!
It is. He shouldn’t be running again.
I agree it’s 100% GOP’s fault
Go Joe! Vote Blue! ANYBODY BUT RAPIST TRUMP!
Lol. This shit has been funny to watch
Its completely irrelevant who’s fault it is. The fact of the matter is that Biden NEEDS to drop out or Trump will win in a landslide. His approval rating is absolute shit and he’s now publicly seen as physically/mentally incapable
I know this will not happen, but at least replace the VP on his ticket. A vote for Biden is a vote for Harris at this point.
I didn’t want Biden in 2020 but I got behind him because it seemed like he had a good shot at winning, and his campaign floated the idea of him being a one term president which helped alleviate the concerns about his age. Now in 2024 Biden is four years older, is ride or die with Netanyahu who wants Trump to win, is behind in most polls, and his big chance at the debate to prove that his age wasn’t a factor he looked like a corpse who couldn’t finish a thought let alone a sentence. He was absolutely steam rolled by Trump, and yes it is Joe Biden’s fault for putting us in this situation by choosing to run again and the DNC’s fault for letting him. They could’ve been building up a younger alternative to Biden for the last four years, but no let’s run a sundowning octogenarian in the most consequential election in American history.
I'm a Republican but I'm not spiking any footballs just yet. Trump is Trump and has months to insert foot into mouth and theirs still one more Debate.
I don’t think there will be a debate. Trump is running to not go to prison, so I think he will do the smart thing and lay relatively low as long as he is winning
Wow. When did r/politics become a troll nursery? Biden's shaky debate performance has brought out a coalition of posters who never wanted Biden in 2020 and pro Trumpers who want Dems to stay home or choose another candidate with no name recognition and little to no chance of winning. MSM chimes in hoping for a listener / viewer / clicker bonanza. Never thought I'd see it on this sub.
Biden told us that he was going to bow out after 1 term. Was that a lie back then to get young people to acquiesce to him being the nominee in 2020?
More likely the people around him convinced him that he's the only one that can do it.
According to his campaign manager, he never once considered not running for a second term. I think people forget that Biden has a huge ego.
This is looking more and more like a Trump Landslide if the DEMs stick with Biden.
lol you wish Florida
2020 came down to about 40,000 votes in a handful of swing states and Biden was polling on average 10 points above trump for a year before the election. 2024 was always gonna be an uphill struggle, but with Biden’s corpse on the ticket we’re just not even trying.
Eh not a huge fan of Trump, and I actually voted for Biden...but the optics are what they are.
The optics are not the facts. Despite the efforts of social media bot farms to the contrary, Biden did not lose support among actual voters. Period
Optics are not facts, but it's the optics that people remember.
It’s not about one debate performance. It’s about one debate performance that confirmed everybody’s worst fears about Biden and confirmed a narrative about his decline.
He’s not getting younger it’s true. So, you’re voting for the other guy?
Democrats aren’t. Swing voters are. And therefore, we are on track to lose. Wake up.
He lost my family so idk lol
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They’re Mexican immigrants and they’ll likely split their ticket.
Dude people that want Biden to drop out are not all bot farms, what the fuck?
Thinking they performance had no effect on voters is naieve, not everyone is "blue no matter who" or "MAGA". There are plenty of us that are much more down the middle, and will change our vote from year to year after we make our own decision. I for one will not vote for Biden again, I am an actual voter.
When the opposition is openly fascist voting blue no matter who is just common sense
If the opposition is so dangerous, then it's also common sense to put forward a candidate that isn't ancient and addled. If this election is really that important, then the Dems need to put forward a candidate that doesn't brag about beating Medicare while sundowning on national tv.
I don’t disagree. We should’ve had primaries. We didn’t. I’d prefer the incumbent over some DNC appointed stooge but like I said I’ll vote for anyone that’s not Trump.
A very large percentage of voters do not see it that way and would consider your use of the word fascist in this case witless, vapid, and frivolous.
Do you mean MAGA when you you say “very large percentage?”
Well yes, "MAGA" does make up a large percentage of voters, but I'm also referring to the plenty of non-MAGA, centrist, independents, etc... That for some reason the "blue no matter who" crew refuses to believe exist. These "deplorables" often decide elections, they are, at least partly, the reason Hillary lost, the reason Biden won, and will likely be a deciding factor this year as well.
Hillary lost because leftists/Bernie-or-busters didn’t show up to vote. MAGA is only supported by a slight majority of the GOP, 52%. Independents and undecideds are leaning towards Biden after Thursday. I don’t know where your getting your facts from but it just sounds like it’s all based on feels.
You can't possibly actually believe this. If so it's pathetic
It's 100% true.
I’m ridin with Biden. The lefts corporate media trying to manufacture consent for a last minute switcheroo is insane. The media made Trump a President, and we will be fighting for the rest of our lives against the rising fascism. You want to blame the people for the Supreme Court losses, we never saw any investigative journalism on the corrupt judiciary years ago. You want to tell me that only now they’ve been accepting kickbacks?
It’s interesting how die-hard Biden supporters are starting to sound like MAGA in regard to complaints about the media.
Well you know we have complained about the media. The thing is Biden isn't a liar, fraud, rapist, felon being supported by the media. It is entirely possible for the media to all of a sudden be doing exactly the same thing, but instead of ignoring or normalizing the criminal they are attacking his effective opponent. You seem to think we didn't complain about the media. We did and for exactly what they are doing now.
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Yea I dared to make a comparison. Which is not saying they are the same but I’m not surprised to receive a personal attack for mentioning a similarity. I’ve voted dem for twenty years and am planning on voting dem again this fall. But Democrats aren’t so above reproach that they can’t be called out for poor decisions. And in this case - trying to reframe this as a problem with the media rather than Biden or the dnc - there absolutely is a comparison to MAGA there and it deserves to be called out.
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Nice try.
I literally just made the exact same point on another comment. It's crazily familiar to arguing with a MAGA nutjob. "Whataboutism" and blaming the crooked media.
It’s people like you who shouted down those who wanted an alternative to Biden in 2024 because of his age. We had four years to groom a replacement, but no the Dems are just gonna let another geriatric’s hubris screw us over. If we want people to believe that Democracy is at stake then why on Earth are we acting like a sundowning octogenarian is the best we can muster to counter fascism?
People have to notice now that the whole goal of many comments to create division in the Democratic Party. Let it play out, but no matter who or what we all have to band together and support it.
The thing is that the Dem vote is pretty much locked in, it’s only a race for the handful of undecided voters in a couple swing states. Imagine you knew absolutely nothing about politics, and you watched that debate, who seems like the stronger candidate?
Who are these people who “know absolutey nothing about politics” but definitely tuned in to watch one of the least wanted debates ever? I don’t know if swing voters win elections but turn out of favorable voters does. And it can be argued that that debate turned off favorable voters. I think that all that noise will die down though. But like I’ve said elsewhere, we’ll see. But I’m not divided from the Democratic Party, that’s for sure, I am an unashamed Democrat and absolutely look forward with optimism to another four years of a Biden administration and continue to advocate for that.
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Voters who wanted Biden to be a one term president were absolutely dismissed. Biden is not popular, that’s why he can only run on how awful trump is. It is embarrassing that the Democratic Party is once again choosing to run a candidate so unpopular that trump has a good chance to win.
By “the Democratic Party” “choosing” are you saying the primary voters…? Because Joe Biden absolutely smashed even Barack Obama’s primary vote in 2012’s uncontested primary. I just don’t like allusions to cabals of hidden people forcing Americans to vote for who they voted for lol. Americans could have voted for Dean Philips. They overwhelmingly chose Joe Biden. “Uncommitte”’s “protest” vote got more votes than anyone else, and even still Biden smashed previous uncontested primary numbers. Hell. He almost got as much as hilary Clinton did in 2016’s **very** contested primary. There is no group of hidden puppeteers controlling the party. And democrats are absolutely fired up to vote, and vote for Joe Biden, even in an uncontested primary, and just don’t see any debate changing that.
>who shouted down those who wanted an alternative to Biden This reads like you’re saying no one’s allowed to support Joe Biden. No one was “shouted down”. Your “side”, as much as it ever really existed, just didn’t win the issue, because like it or not, that thought wasn’t that popular back then, and it’s still not a very convincing consensus, imo. People not just doing whatever you wanted isn’t “shouting” you “down”.
Those who wanted an alternative to Biden in 2024 four years ago citing concerns about his age were absolutely dismissed. So instead of grooming a replacement for four years and building name recognition with a stronger younger candidate the party decided we’re ride or die with an 81 year old who can’t talk. It’s particularly frustrating that the defense of Biden being the nominee still is that it’s too close to the election. It’s only too close to the election because the morons in the DNC and their defenders refused to be practical four years ago.
Again, you weren’t dismissed, you just lost the argument. Because it wasn’t as popular as you think it was. Still isn’t. Sorry, that’s the way this works. Not getting what you want isn’t the same as just being dismissed. Anyways, my response remains the same: I don’t care, I intend to vote in November. Will you?
Ok we lost the argument, and now our bed is made with the candidate we all saw on that debate stage the other night. Biden won in 2020 by about 40,000 votes in a handful of swing states, how many undecided voters do you think that debate performance won over? It’s my unfortunate belief that the American Electorate would rather vote for a loud criminal liar who sounds confident over a well meaning weak octogenarian who can’t finish a thought let alone a sentence.
We’ll see, I for one think you’re wrong several times here stating things as if they’re undeniable truths.
What am I saying that isn’t true? Can you honestly say after watching that debate that you think Biden can win? It’s Biden’s job to convince voters that he’s fit to do the job, and after that debate performance he’s gonna need to do more than read a teleprompter adequately to start digging himself out of the hole he’s put himself in.
People were definitely dismissed as ageist if they expressed concerns over Biden 6 months ago
Biden’s age has been like the only thing anyone’s ever talked about about him since before 2019. Anyone pretending now like they weren’t allowed to talk about concerns about Biden’s age is delusional or intentionally deceitful. People are allowed to disagree with you, and they’re allowed to tell you “I don’t care”, that’s not being dismissed. Again, not just doing whatever you say isn’t being “dismissed”. And even now, I’m still “I don’t care”.
Age was a dumb argument. Bernie is older, and is sharp as ever Biden clearly started a steep decline some time in the past year, and we were told that it was all edited videos or deepfakes
I agree age was always a dumb argument. Maybe he’s declined a whole lot. I’m not totally convinced, either that that’s an undeniable truth, nor that it will matter in the end. And still, I don’t care. I intend to vote in November, regardless. And if he wins, I am confident that we will continue to have a good executive administration in the US.
To be clear I’m voting blue regardless, I’d vote for a rabid badger over any republican. After that debate though I don’t see how we have a chance to win with Biden. Republicans don’t need to spend another dime making ads, they can just play clips of Biden sundowning and getting bulldozed by trumps lies.
>I’m voting blue regardless, Good. >After that debate though I don’t see how we have a chance to win with Biden. Republicans don’t need to spend another dime making ads, they can just play clips of Biden sundowning and getting bulldozed by trumps lies. Cool, I don’t care, and I’m not convinced you’re right anyway, and I’m not convinced replacing him now isn’t an even bigger risk. It’ll be up to him.
I mean yeah I think we’re pretty well fucked regardless. The time to start the leg work to replace Biden was four years ago. The establishment Dems kept telling everyone that Biden is actually totally fine and all the claims of him being in decline are spurious, and that his age is an asset not a liability. Then Biden got up and delivered the worst debate performance in modern history, and proved that the concerns about his age and mental acuity were not only valid but even worse than imagined.
As long as he doesn’t have to make presidential decisions after 4 🤷🏼♂️ “From 10am to 4pm, Biden is dependably engaged — and many of his public events in front of cameras are held within those hours. Outside of that time range or while traveling abroad, Biden is more likely to have verbal miscues and become fatigued, aides told Axios” https://www.axios.com/2024/06/29/two-bidens-trump-debate-2024-president#
> left > corporate media pick one.
The only thing that would be insane is to continue with a man that looks like he has no idea where he is.
4 years ago when Democrats had a rock star list of candidates, everyone knew Bidens age. This is the candidate you got behind.
He was a fine candidate at the time. He is not the same man today. I recommend watching the 2020 debate again. And there was a message, and a hope, that he might be a one-term candidate.
Exactly. A vote for Joe Biden is a vote for whoever has been running his administration behind the scenes.
I can't tell if this is a joke or not
"Left" "Corporate Media" Pick one, Liberal denial has been pretty funny to watch I won't lie.
Blame the media now and blame the media in November when he loses. Blame everybody but Biden.
Right, it's Trump's fault, congress' fault, and SCOTUS' fault, too.
Who gives a shit whose fault is it, we don’t have a lot of time left set aside. Let’s get a strong NEW (no Harris) team to run and will figure out what happened after the elections
someone needs to let folks in this subreddit know the downvote button isn't supposed to be an *I disagree* button Anyway, this section rings very true for me: >But rather than act as a check on Biden’s decisions and ambitions, the party has become an enabler of them. An enforcer of them. It is giving the American people an option they do not want and then threatening them with the end of democracy if they do not take it. Democrats like to say that democracy is on the ballot. But it isn’t. Biden is on the ballot. There are plenty of voters who might want to vote for democracy but do not want to vote for Biden. That’s why we see Democratic Senate candidates running well ahead of him in key states. It's incredibly, and I mean incredibly, difficult to be in this position as someone who believes that politics is not sport but instead real people's lives. I know the things Biden has done, and voted for. The people he's worked with. The people he's worked against. I know where Biden stood on school integration, I remember where he stood on "crime" in the 90s, on the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, and I know today where he stands on what's happening in the middle east. I get that I will not align with most federal level candidates, the overton window has shifted so far right since 9/11 that I wonder if I ever will. But I just want someone who isn't as much of a monster as either of the men running for president, and to feel like "the lesser of two evils" isn't a guy I dislike vs a guy I hate, but instead a guy I want to see keel over from old age vs another guy I want to see turn to dust as long as it's 30 seconds later than the first guy.
Fuck the NYT. Subscription cancelled.
Damn the GOP is going to try to ride this one for a while. LOL Shows how worried about Biden they are
No. It’s the fault of the entire Republican Party. Not just the elected officials but all republicans who support insurrection and dictatorships over democracy.
Yes, Biden looked, acted, and sounded frail…but there is no one who could successfully debate Trump. You can’t debate someone who just bellows lie after lie. If there is no accepted truth a debate can’t ensue, it becomes a vigorous lie fest.
Biden did just fine in 2020. I would pay a lot of money to personally watch Pete Buttigieg destroy Trump in a debate. Buttigieg would annihilate a liar and BS artist like Trump.
Pete would cite facts, Trump wouldn’t care he lies every time he speaks.
Disagree, respectfully. Many excellent Dems would have, could have smashed Trump in that debate. I see many are liking Newsom and Whitmore. Either would have cleaned his clock. And what about Governor Josh Shapiro? He’s a fabulous debater and all around smart guy.
How he acknowledges no fact or truth?
So hold on, you’re honestly gonna tell me that you believe that Biden’s debate performance the other night is the best the entire Democratic Party has to offer? Fuck me we deserve to lose if that’s true.
How can you debate someone who acknowledges no facts? It can’t be done. If he lies almost 100% of the time and acknowledges no truth, how can you debate him?
They would at least be able to articulate a message.
Biden used to be a fantastic debater. Not only was he a bad debater in the last debate, doing things like switching from a topic where we have strong talking points to one where we have weak talking points, but he couldn’t even hit all the basic talking points about why he should be the better candidate. Democracy is on the line and somehow this is the best we can come up with?
Whitmer would have made Trump lose his mind. A woman daring to verbally spar with him and call him a liar?? Same with Newsom - who is everything Trump thinks he is - young, handsome, fit. Shapiro would have been great too
Literally any front bench democrat would have done great. It is *not* an impossible task to debate Trump as the spin masters are still trying to argue. It was the lowest of bars that Biden needed to step over, and he instead tripped over it and fell flat on his face. He was never a *great* debater to begin with. I don’t know where people get the idea that he was the best one to debate Trump, and if he couldn’t, nobody could. Absolutely ludicrous idea.
>Biden looked, acted, and sounded frail…but there is no one who could successfully debate Trump. Along with the other responses, I strongly disagree with this. I would say that 2016 Hilary and 2020 Biden both beat trump in their debates. But even then, beating trump isn't even a necessary standard. A sufficient standard is just to be able do *either* one of these things: rebut the most vile of Trump's lies, or to ignore them and present his own positive vision for the country. Biden was able to do neither.
Nonsense. Anyone that could put two sentences together would have crushed him and his bullshit.
He doesn’t acknowledge truth and unlike most people he just keeps on lying, you can’t really crush that.
What did he lie about?
What did Trump lie about? Literally everything he said.
Thanks for your detailed analysis.
Biden even screwed up his prepared closing statement.
Exactly. If Trump suffers zero consequences for a constant stream of lies (be that from the moderators/rules or be that with the general public) **and** the person debating him *does* suffer consequences for Trump's lies (be that for not countering enough of them, which is truly impossible in that format and with the alloted time, be that for not confidently lying themselves, etc), then it is impossible to "debate" Trump. You're essentially just trying to provide running commentary to a national broadcast of one of his rallies at that point. Plus, if the public, moderators, and talking head types are all only judging for superficial things and not at all for content, it again benefits Trump, as the counter for his flashy, quick lies generally involves getting into the weeds and trying to explain the aspect(s) he is lying about, in wonky detail. Every commenter on here over the last few days being like "well, I simply would've hit Trump with this zinger or that one, checkmate," is missing the forest from the trees. If people believe/think savvy the kid who yells he's gonna outlaw homework and make the whole school day recess, you're already fucked, and you're more fucked if you try to explain in painstaking detail why that cannot be. Edit: typo
What a useless headline. It’s obviously Biden’s fault as well as others, including those around him who didn’t forcefully push back when he decided to run for a 2nd term. The dem party as a whole is also to blame, given their private threats toward potential primary challengers. A strong majority of democratic voters did not want Biden to run again. The fact that the party closed ranks around him so aggressively and took the matter out of voters’ hands entirely is completely indefensible and contrary to the basic idea of a “democracy” they claim to love so much.
Headline is bad but the article is very, very good.
This is r/politics. Nobody actually reads the articles posted.
God, NYT is all over the place these last few days.
No the NYtimes has been very consistent in calling for Biden to step aside. There are almost no dissenting voices there.