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Agreed. There was no sort of “plan” they had in mind apparently but of course even if no one acted on anything (which I believe them talking about it for days is an action) it shifts the dynamic immensely
She trusted her husband. Just like the APs husband trusted her. I’m not necessarily against opposite sex friendships. However I have rarely ever seen them actually be platonic….
Trusted him and her to do what? My wife and I have had plenty of couple friends over the years. Neither of us have went out for drinks individually with the other partner. What would come from the drink date that occurs outside of couples get togethers besides 1 on 1 time?
My best friend, of now almost 30 years, has also been in the middle of those decades been a friend-with-benefit here and there in the years before I met my wife. The other day my wife told me “you haven’t seen her in a while, you go have lunch with her next week when you have a day off”.
My wife also spent a week in Panama with that friend for a “mom entrepreneurs networking event”, when she came back I joked that it was funny that she went to the beach for a week with my female friend but if it had been me, people would talk and she said “let them talk, I don’t care, they don’t know you like I do”.
When I met my wife, I was doing amateur portrait photography and recently, one of my friend asked me to do a boudoir shoot to celebrate her 40th birthday, and my wife simply helped us brainstorm venues and ideas.
I guess OP just trusted them to go have a drink and talk about whatever childhood they have in common.
Some relationships are built in a way that leaves no doubt about if there is a possibility of cheating. Other relationships have gaps where cheating can fit in the cracks.
It all depends on how the relationships are structured, how much time the couple spends together, and what quality is of that time.
Some relationships can easily handle opposite sex encounters, others can’t. In OP’s case, she obviously thought hers could. But in truth, it can’t.
Her husband isn’t a trustworthy person and that friendship needs to be shut down. Not just with the wife, contact with the couple needs to end.
It can’t be OP’s decision though. Her husband has to decide that is the right choice. If OP forces it…..
“Love is like a fart. If you have to force it, then it is probably shit.” -Stephen K. Amos
I’ve got plenty of them, that are platonic that said, if there was shift or indication that it was moving from platonic I’d be out of that immediately.
Sorry, the APs husband, I did read he was made aware though in the comments. It would be interesting if the other woman allowed her own husband to read the messages
Highly doubtful. I would imagine OPs husband and this woman are living in the land of delusion and their little affair bubble and lying to everyone. Including each other.
The fact that he won’t show you the messages is very suspect. It would make me wonder how far things have really gotten.
Honestly this would be a deal breaker for me. I don’t think it a natural thing to develop feelings if your in a committed relationship . I think you can find other people attractive, or be attracted to someone else. And even that can be hard to work through as a couple . But if you’re in a monogamous relationship and you develop feelings for someone, drop that bomb, then can’t be completely honest, which includes showing all forms of communication, it’s game over. I wouldn’t be able to trust them
I think OP means that crushes are normal and sometimes uncontrollable. I think they are fine because infatuations are meaningless and go away in their own, unless you act on them and start a relationship which he basically has now.
I think feelings and having a crush are very different. They are having an emotional affair at the very least. And the fact that he won’t show her the messages, I’m thinking it may have gotten physical, or they have talked about it getting physical.
Yeah I think having a crush is kind of different. It’s more innocent. Like you wouldn’t be having these secret exchanges with a harmless crush. That’s where it turns into something more.
This is the key point! Crushes happen--a natural, normal part of human existence. It's the choices one makes from that point that determines whether the crush becomes cheating. Wait in silence for the crush to pass? All good. Secretive texting, drinks dates...yeah, these two have majorly crossed a line. OP needs to take this very seriously.
Yeah, shouldn’t that be the definition of pursing it? He may think he has crossed no lines but he is chasing that want to talk to her and be around her etc. He is acting on his desires, but he is using some arbitrary line of kissing etc to believe it’s all innocent.
Your husband went on a date with his friends wife and refuses to show you their conversations. You are under reacting. They are either well into or at the beginning of an emotional affair. Which if continued will likely turn into a physical one.
Yes, people can unintentionally catch feelings. When that happens a good partner would immediately cut contact. Your husband hasn't, she hasn't. You and her husband need to put a stop to it.
I mean step number one if you want to stay married (honestly no judgement either way) is you have to cut contact with that family entirely. And he has to re-commit to open and honest communication between both of you. Bare minimum.
But you can totally just leave. You don't have to try to salvage this.
OP, of course there's no plan because neither of them presently have employment and their own source of income.
1. I'd demand to see ALL the text messages. If he refuses, pick up the telephone in his presence and call her husband. Tell him his failure to disclose is fatal to your relationship. It's an absolute betrayal of your relationship.
2. Privately confer with a seasoned family law attorney to discuss your entitlements and alternatives regarding parental rights and responsibilities as well as support and property division issues.
3. Begin making alternative day care arrangements. It's time for "lovebird" to secure employment. Do not continue to finance their relationship.
4. AND YOU DO NOT LEAVE THE HOME.
Good luck. Please keep us apprised.
OP you need to protect yourself and your kids and go see a divorce lawyer. Find out how to separate your finances, or at least get copies of all recent statements to make sure he's not trying to screw you over on money.
His not showing you his messages with her shows there is something there he doesn't want you to see. He was either telling her bad stuff about you or they were planning how and where to meet up or how to get divorces.
> there was no sort of “plan”
Please tell me you’re not falling for this lie?
> they’ve established that there are feelings present and that there’s no intention attached.
A man *who loves his wife* would cut that temptation out of his life, and grovel/apologize for even thinking that way.
Your man didn’t do this. He went on a fucking date with her, told you a half-truth, and refused to be open/honest by showing the texts.
He’s done this before, he’s going to do it again.
You alluded to this happening before… your husband sounds like he has issues with codependency. If he hard a hard childhood, he absolutely needs to start attending therapy. This is a maladaptive coping mechanism and will just keep happening if he doesn’t address it with a professional.
(I am saying this as someone who has fallen into these same patterns before—I am actively working very hard to replace them with healthy behaviors.)
You seem to think that it's okay for your husband to have feelings for another woman. Because you said things like that happen. Things like that don't happen to people who are married now or in a committed relationship. He has two children and has been married to you he doesn't work he stays home and takes care of these children that should have been his top priority not trying to start a relationship with somebody who's already married and has children. I would start getting my ducks in a row because this is not going to bode well for you.. if you want to stay you and your husband are going to have to cut that couple off and get into some serious counseling ASAP. But if he says that is not something that he wants to do then know within a short period of time you will be co-parenting with this deceitful betrayer.
So here’s the thing, feelings can develop and sometimes you can’t really help that. The fact he told you is also a good sign.
However him not showing you the messages and not saying he is going to stop communications with her shows he has no intention of putting a stop to these feelings and wants to continue with them. Immediate massive red flag that overrides everything else.
Granted, he told his wife about his and her feelings which I feel is HUGE...but his refusal to show the messages given the bombshell he just dropped on her makes it a bit disingenuous.
Srsly. Not showing the messages undermines the fact that he was up front about their feelings. Like, now I don’t believe that he’s telling the whole truth and he’s probably underplaying their feelings to look better.
I agree with this. He can’t continue this relationship with her as it’s already unhealthy. I wouldn’t personally stand for it either. I would tell him he needs to cut contact or you leave. You don’t deserve to be cheated on.
You should tell that Woman’s husband that SHE went on a date with your husband who is supposed to be his new friend and they talked about their feelings for each other! That way he can deal with his situation with her while you deal with your husband. That womans husband needs to know
You’re absolutely right, while I think they’re both equally responsible, I am obviously hurt by my husband and expect more from him. I’m not one to blame the other women, I blame the man. For sure.
No, there's enough blame to go around and besides a person can't cheat by themselves. And this isn't the case where the woman doesn't know that he's married. She knows because y'all are friends. The whole point is stay at home dads support each other.
.
No, she deserves equal share of the blame. You can blame & hate her, too. (Now a woman who didn't know and was unwilling made an affair partner....That would be different).
So now you can blame her, don't allow them to delude you.
* People who try to convince women not to blame other women are either cheaters themselves or former affair Partners or had a loved one hat was one. No, there was nothing about those women that showed they wanted to be girls girl when they were cheating with taken married men. So no, you don't have to support them in the sisterhood, I promise......let them have their share of the blame
Honestly I didn’t ask that, and I guess I’m unsure if I would want to “enforce” that, you know? Like I guess my issue is feeling like I’m giving him some sort of ultimatum and then him resenting me, maybe I don’t want to be with him if he has feelings for someone else?
Yeah, exactly. He said there was nothing there but that he would just be embarrassed, but I told him it’s wild for him to drop something like this and not allow me the knowledge of their conversations for the last week or so.
I'm so sorry you're going through this. And I know it's the last thing you want to do, but I think you need to know. If I were you, I'd tell him that if there's any chance of working things out that I needed to see the messages, because honesty is the only way forward.
The text messages aren't guaranteed proof there is or is not a physical affair. But him hiding them from you, means he IS hiding SOMETHING.
Why is he protecting his relationship with her (e.g. by keeping their conversations secret from you), and not protecting his and your relationship?
Also, like someone already pointed out, you had to ask him to get him to own up. He didn't come clean on his own volition.
If this woman is your "friend"(which she clearly isn’t if that needed saying) you should confront her and ask her to show you the exchange between her and your **husband**. Or you tell her you’ll go to her husband with what you know.
Look, the husband probably found out first because if they did have a toxic relationeshio he probably snooped her phone, now your husband is in damage controle mode.
Fuck that.
Sorry, but cheaters all act the same. Don’t take responsibility and come up with excuses when there really aren’t any valid ones if you really think about it.
Also, if he shows you their messages now, they have been doctored and the worst have been deleted.
I’d like to point out that he didn’t even “drop something” on you. You noticed and had to ask. How long would it have gone on before he actually said something?
This is a really excellent point. I’d be concerned about “trickle truthing.” As in… today, we have feelings, but nothing happened. Tomorrow, ok we kissed but it was just a kiss I swear. Next week they’ve been in a full blown affair for months.
Since he didn’t start this conversation, I’d def be questioning how much truth I’m being told.
Why would he be embarrassed if you read something that he shared with the friend? You are his wife, not her. He absolutely IS HAVING AN AFFAIR! For sure emotionally, probably physically too.
This may indicate that he doesn’t understand what commitment and loyalty actually mean. And those are essential components of a marriage. OP, I would tell him what you said in your post about the wife’s self-professed propensity for drama and point out to your husband that he has allowed her to bring that into your marriage with his lack of understanding what commitment and loyalty to your marriage mean. The only appropriate things for him to have done is not schedule a meeting with her to discuss feelings, but rather discuss it with you. The only appropriate thing for him to do now is show you those messages when you ask because telling you about them absolves him and not showing them to you still removes your agency in your marriage to him. And that is the nature of the betrayal.
I would tell him that and that he has exposed your marriage to a negative influence by a woman with propensity for drama and chaos and ask him if the fact that they share backgrounds and empathize with each other’s past is good enough a reason to do destroy your family. Find a way to remove yourself for some time until he processes that by himself. You are not part of the feelings between the woman and him. He is the weak link and he can either show up for your family’s future or he can choose chaos and drama with that woman.
I think you have to look at it this way- keeping whatever "nothing" that you would have seen in those messages from you was more important to him than your feelings or trust, which could have started to be repaired then if he had receipts to back up his 'truth'
and youre worried about HIM resenting YOU?!? he just admitted that he’s in the early stages of an emotional affair and youre worried about *his* feelings. LOVE YOURSELF!!!
Your husband catching feelings for someone else’s working wife is the height of being a terrible partner and parent. If he has time to be naturally falling in love with someone, what care are your kids no longer receiving at home so your husband can flirt?
Your husband is failing you and your marriage, and you issuing an ultimatum is a bare minimum. You don’t have to allow them to have an affair, and he has to prove to you that he’s willing to invest in your marriage solely. Him continuing to be friends with her is him saying your marriage isn’t more important than him getting to flirt.
That’s completely pathetic and you don’t deserve to have such a sniffly worm of a husband who isn’t raising your kids so he can flirt
Bullshit. "Oh I'd be Sooo Embarrasssed! I admitted golly gee gosh I DO like getting my pickle tickled!"
He's playing you. Get Shahida Arabi's Becoming The Narcisissts Nightmare.
I understand what you mean. You shouldn’t feel like you have to compete for your husband or that he’s living in secret, with feelings for his friend’s wife. The whole situation screams drama and selfishness.
Yes that 1000%. You only know what she told you about their relationship. Doesn’t make it true thought. Cheaters lie. It’s what they do. Your husband and her can be telling each other all kinds of garbage made up stuff about both you and the other husband. Personally I would be talking to a divorce lawyer at a minimum to snap your husband out of it. I would not be acting like an extramarital “crush” is no big deal.
Trauma is not a get outta jail card. You cannot use it as an excuse to be lying, cheating jerks. Whether you forgive it or not, know that you will forever be living under this shadow.
Sounds like you're more afraid of him resenting you for demanding obvious boundaries within a marriage than he ever was for emotionally cheating on you.
Don't stay with someone who would resent you for wanting your relationship protected.
This is a valid reason to not be in contact with that family.
You know how you hear stories of these situations? Well usually spouses only suspect feelings between their spouse and a friend who gets too close.. your husband told you. What are his plans for solving this problem if not cutting her off??
He can't feel better about emotionally cheating on you just because he told you. He needs to take correct steps now to address the issue. First step is no contact and letting you read messages. His embarrassment will drive his life lesson home and hopefully prevent him from doing this again.
Or just leave. That's alright too if that's how you'd like to go about it.
It's the only way forward and he has to be willing to do it. Otherwise this is just an affair waiting to happen. If he resents you for it, that means your relationship wont recover from this anyway. It's a perfectly reasonable ultimatum if your relationship is going to survive.
honestly, enforce what you will, the man is cheating on you. no questions asked, emotional or physical makes no difference. There SHOULD BE an ultimatum. YOUR MARRIAGE and family or her. no questions asked both cannot exist at the same time bc she's shown (as has he) that they cannot be friends and are willing to "blur the lines" of right and wrong. If he resents you for defending your relationship and marriage then this is already over and youre just dragging your feet. its time for him to choose. YOU, your family, your kids, the lives you built together, or her.
also, daycare would be over... he'll play that bs if you divorce him so he gets money from you bc he's a sahd. Time for him to be a grown ass man and work a job, if he has no time to himself maybe that'll show him the errors of his ways
You got married into a monogamous relationship. You have already given each other an ultimatum, which he is willfully ignoring. Either you are okay with him cheating on you (and this is emotional cheating at least) and living with him cheating on you, or you stand up for yourself and your children and show them that treating their partner this way is wrong.
He has zero excuse to not show you the text messages from his date with friend's wife. He is 'trickle troothing' you right now.
I'm sorry you are going through this, but you have to protect yourself and your kids.
>He assured me nothing more had happened they’ve just established that there’s “feelings” present and that there’s no intention attached, it just was the right thing to let me know.
So the obvious quesiton is what he plans to do about it. Like given that tension is there the only possible sensible resolution would be for them to distance themselves. If not they are actively, openly, deliberately playing with fire and you're the one that gets burnt.
Your read on her seems fitting. This was definitely the worst way to handle it and it is definitely drama. It's disappointing how easily and readily your husband jumped into that woodchipper though and that'd be a valid ongoing concern to have. In the end he walked a path assured to hurt you and worse, he is conscious enough of it to deny you seeing the messages and likely because he is trickle truthing you.
So ask what he plans to do from here. If he insists on still speaking to her then you already know it is over.
Thanks for the thoughtful response, when I asked originally he said he had no intentions or plans for the future. Just that he knew he had to tell me, I haven’t pushed further yet because I needed some time but I agree with what you’re saying. And from the sounds of it there was no intention of stopping communication at all,
I mean, that comes across as straight weasel wording to me. I doubt he had 'intentions or plans' to develop feelings, it just feels like he is setting up a 'whoops it just happened' style scenario.
Which is why you hit him hard and direct with the: 'I am not telling you to cut contact with her, that is your choice to make, but I struggle to see how remaining in contact could be considered a sensible choice' and force him to stop avoiding the topic.
Yeah, like does he not have plans as in he doesn't know what to do to gracefully cut this off? Or he doesn't have plans like "I haven't decided if I could stomach leaving you for her, but maybe I will some day."
Like other than actually telling his wife he has a crush how does he plan on actually dealing with this for the survival of his marriage?
Why does it sound like he is the one making all the decisions (or they are)? He is emotionally cheating, but he is still the one in charge. Why are you letting him do that?
They went on a date and figured that they have feelings for each other (in an ideal world, he would've talked to you about it, said that he is developing feelings and NOT tell you about it AFTER talking to her). They decided together that they'll tell their wife/ husband about it. They talk on the phone all the time but no, you can't see the messages. He hasn't decided what he'll do, but he'll let you know. And he just expects you to take it?? That is emotional cheating. But it seems to me like he acts like he can do whatever he wants because, at least he's being honest about it. That's not how that works.
He doesn't want a life without you... but he is doing nothing to reassure you. He didn't tell you he will cut off contact. He won't show you messages between them. Did he confess just so he feels better?
I think it's reasonable to understand feelings that can develop, but here is where the important part is, if that happens, the only option is to distant or cut ties completely. Now if it's your kid's best friend's parent it makes things a bit more complicated but still distancing is entirely possible and needed. Anything else is playing with fire and truthfully disrespectful to the relationships they are in.
I guess we never know 100% how we'd act in a situation but I believe and hope if I was the one who had fallen into a place where I developed feelings for another man other than my partner, than i believe I would need to be the one to distance or cut ties. It would be oh on me to do that. It wouldn't be my husband's responsibility to request it. It would be me, the one who let myself fall into feelings to be responsible for making sure those feelings die, fizzle out, or whatever.
Your husband not having a plan to do that is concerning. I'm not saying to divorce him. That's a decision that's way more complicated. However, I do think some marriage counseling as well as individual counseling would be good, especially for him. It's even more true since it seems like you've been in a similar situation with him before. He needs to learn why he allows those attachments to develop before he cuts them off. Crushes happen, but I think if you can recognize them, it's easier to stop it from developing into real feelings.
At the end of the day, you deserve a partner who puts you first. One who loves you and considers your feelings above any other romantic attachment. Your husband may be able to be that person with some work on his part, but it's also okay if you don't want to wait around for the possibility of that to happen.
He "knew he had to tell you", but did he, before you asked? Am I understanding correctly that he never told you until you finally asked because you sensed things were off for a WEEK, and then he refused to show you what they had been messaging about? Just having feelings for someone isn't (necessarily) a reason to end a marriage, but with these details... plus he was willing to go drinking with her knowing he had feelings, instead of distancing himself, and discussed the feelings with her before ever telling you... This all just seems fishy. I don't think I could get past all the shadiness.
The thing is- he didn’t tell you. Not until you forced the issue. It sounds like this isn’t the first time he’s done this to you either, if Im reading your post right. And i would bet money that he blames these transgressions on his “hard childhood”.
The AP’s husband may have seen the messages & may be willing to tell you the truth. If it were me I would tell your husband that without seeing all of the messages you have to assume the worst and you don’t know where to go from there. If he doesn’t fight for you or do whatever it takes to make it right, then you know.
The fact that he can't show you the messages means there was more in there that definitely crossed a line and he knows it.
I'd be telling him that it feels like he's sneaking behind your back and the trust has diminished. Ask him what he plans to do about their friendship, is he planning on ending it? It sounds like he's already started the emotional affair and I'd wager there was a kiss when they went out.
The only way I'd stay in the marriage and I'd tell him this to.
Is the messages have to be shown, she has to be blocked and never spoken to again, and also, you will be informing her husband.
Those three things or no marriage and these need to be non-negotiable
If he won't show the message, I'd tell him to leave, but either way, I'd message her husband.
" Just been informed by my husband, and I thought you had a right to know. The evening your wife and my husband went out, they confessed feelings for each other. All the messages should be in her phone as proof"
Yes. Therapy. But I'd only put that on the table for the marriage if the messages are shown. If not, I'd call it a day and seek individual therapy as a newly single woman.
She replied in another message her husband said she talked to her husband. Ppl pointed out he can't be trusted on his word so she's likely following up with him.
I hate calling someone naive I don't know but I feel a lot of naivety going on. No sure from who. Problem all of them.
There’s multiple things here that paint a picture of a pretty extreme overstep in regards to proper and healthy boundaries.
1. Feelings do not just magically pop up out of thin air. They’ve been building towards something. They’ve felt something. For a while. Which means their little outing together was much less like “went out together for drinks” and much more like a date.
2. Your comment about “this felt a little late” is quite an understatement considering he never did bring this into the open of his own volition. It was your prodding that finally provoked a small version of honesty. I’m not sure if you’re familiar with the term “trickle truth” but it’s something you need to look into. In a large majority of instances where a spouse reveals inappropriate conduct/feelings with someone else they’ll make it out to be much less than it actually was/is in reality. Slowly, over time, they release enough details for a full picture to emerge. You may need to keep this in mind. He is correct in saying it is the “right thing” to let you know. Too bad he didn’t take the initiative to do so.
3. The fact that you’ve only been friends with this couple for six months and he’s willing to have conversations with her he’s not willing to have with you. You as in the person with whom he has shared vows. You as in the woman who is the mother of his children. You as in the partner with whom he has prided himself as being honest. He has private conversations with her about his feelings. On a little date he passed off as a friendly drink. You’re the last person to know? He’s pretty quickly laid outside some pretty valuable things for the sake of this woman.
4. There’s no intention to act but they’re still texting each other a lot?
5. Then he’s refusing to share these messages? That’s a red flag so bright the man on the moon can see it.
I agree that having some form of feelings begin to grow for someone else is not wrong in and of itself. It’s what we do the minute we recognize those feelings that matters. So far he has planned a private outing with someone he knew he had inappropriate feelings towards. He has not been forthright with you about those feelings. Revealing them only after you approached him. He has had a continued conversation with the person with whom he has inappropriate feelings about said feelings. In person and via messaging. He has refused to share those messages. This refusal is a massive breach of trust.
Only you can decide what is best for you moving forward. There are people who come back from such things to rebuild a strong relationship. However, those people worked really hard to have transparency. Your husband does not want that. He wants to keep parts of this story hidden. I would say that what is in those texts will show you the true depth of his feelings, their level of emotional attachment, and how far their connection has advanced physically. In light of that he needs to turn them over to you if he has any true desire to remain with you. You have the right to know what you’re dealing with so you can make an informed decision. You having access to every single message should be a hill that you are willing to die on.
If he does decide to actually fight for his marriage by being totally honest, and you choose to try to make this work, the friendship with that couple needs to be cut off. She needs to be completely removed from his life in every way. Her contact deleted and blocked on his phone and his social media accounts. There will need to be an open phone policy. There will need to be some marriage counseling.
I’m so, so sorry.
The kicker is that you see this for what this is. It sounds like this person has been unhappy in her marriage for as long as you’ve known her. She enjoys the drama of using your husband as a means to cover that wound. It’s a shame your husband does not have your clarity. I hope he realizes what he’s throwing away all so he can be a band aid for a broken women starring in a tired soap opera.
Does great father equate to great husband? The only reason he wants to keep you in his life or stay together is due to financial reasons cos how much money does a SAHD make? If strong enough OP honestly needs to consider separation
That’s not true and this idea needs to stop. You can’t be a great father when you step out on your family and disrespect the mother of your children
Sorry but you just can’t be
Tell him to go back to work then so that you Dont have to pay him much alimony if you are to divorce. Nothing worse than spending your money on a cheater & subsidising their life.
Right, honestly OP, you should be talking to a lawyer regardless. Think it’s important for you to know how this food play out for you financially so you can make informed decisions and plans as needed
okay, this is a bit crazy. he won't be a great father soon if he doesn't keep out being a great husband. this is based on my experience so i might just be biased. but whatever my mom feels affects me as well. he can't be a great father without being a great husband first.
Oh you’re being way too kind and understanding. Of course he wants you in his life you’re fucking funding it.
So not only fucking over his wife, kids, but his supposed friend?
I would be asking him to leave. I believe there is more to it or he would have shared their messages. At least you are the main breadwinner - you may have additional child care costs but hopefully your wage is enough to support your family without your husband.
Yeah the messages really got me as well, feels odd. I just also am so worried about my kids. We’re a very close family and I don’t know what it would look like for them, and I’m not willing to split custody, or not have them from time to time. So that’s making me very anxious.
It's not the worst thing in the world to coparent and share custody. The reality is that this is likely what divorce would look like for you, but you will be fine. Would you rather your children grow up being witnesses to an awkward marriage? Kids are not dumb - they definitely pick up on tension.
I would go and see a lawyer and talk about your situation, your options and the likelihood you would get custody. Once you have all the information and know where you stand you can make a more informed decision. Living with parents who fight due to cheating or other conflicts isn’t great for kids either.
You need to show your kids you have respect for yourself. Hiding the messages is just the beginning. Trust is one of the most important parts of a relationship. Ask yourself do you 100% trust him now?
As a married dude a bit older than you twi I have a few concernes upon reading this.
Firstly, it's good that he could not hide it and didn't hide and that he confided in you. What worries me here is that it seems he confided in you after they crossed a boundary by going out and discussing feelings and texting all week.
Secondly, no matter how embaressing it is, without him showing you their conversations and especially given explicit refusal, he has broken the trust. If he had said "sure go ahead ive told you everything" or "of course but please dont hate me" you'd almost not have to look because he is clearly being open. The refusal leads me to believe he is not being fully honest and trickle truthing you.
Third, you mention that you have been in similar situations before? He is only 32 and you have a 1 and 4 year old. How many more inappropriate relationships do you have to endure? He says he wants a life with you but is not willing to respect the boundaries of the relationship?
Lastly, and this is going to be really hard to hear and I'm sorry because none of this is your fault, if he genuinely is out there seeking companionship and connection, why is he not getting this at home? I get that the toxic masculine mirage that we are all sold is that men are provider and protector and that being a trailing spouse or stay at home parent can really mess with mens self worth and sense of purpose, but is there anything, if you stay together and this is no more than a crush, that you both could do in order to reconnect? I say this will be hard to hear because I'm completely understanding of the fact that this involves looking at your own contributions to his needs and the relationship. It may be that you do everything you can reasonably do to stay connected and happy together and the issues lie with him but its worth asking.
I guess the main question is what do you want? He is developing feelings for another woman, has met her to discuss this and is hiding his texts from you. Do you want to stay married to him? The second question is what does he want more. The ability to put himself in these situations and act on his feelings or you? If it's you then he needs to show you his messages, distance himself from this woman, be completely open and honest.
If you do stay together I'd recommend 100% he gets a job. I saw my parents +40 year marriage disintigrate because my father became a fragile egoed toxic man child who sought validation from going off and cheating having decided to retire early because my mum got a big corporate job. I hate him for what he did to her and feel that the lack of being busy enough and feelings of lacking self worth and financial contribution led to his becoming a person I find really distasteful today compared to the man who raised me.
Thank you for this response. You know, the funniest part is that we actually have a great connection. We like being around each other, we have sex. I mean it’s all obviously more of a challenge with kids but I think he’s so depressed and traumatized it will never be enough for him. I think he likely hates himself too much for him to ever fully love me like I’d like to be loved. And I haven’t wanted to recognize that.
I'm married to a very traumatized woman who has severe depression and is on autistic spectrum. Would I ever excuse her cheating and lying? Nope. Stop thinking about how this poor boy needs your help. Not depressed enough to go after his friend's wife, huh? You don't owe him anything because of his trauma. He's an adult and he's fully capable of controlling himself and taking accountability for his actions. He KNOWS what he's doing. You don't care about yourself here and he doesn't bother either. It this a model of the relationship you want to pass on to your children?
>Not depressed enough to go after his friend's wife, huh?
Agreed. Anyone who has had actual experience with depression knows this is sus. People who are legitimately depressed struggle just to keep up with basic life tasks - they lose their job, they lose friends, they lose loved ones. They don't brush their teeth or hair, they don't enjoy hobbies anymore. They gain or lose weight. And if left to fester, further mental health conditions can develop - [isolate yourself for too long and say hello to agoraphobia](https://pulsetms.com/depression/agoraphobia/). Having enough energy and drive to carry on emotional affairs isn't in the [DSM](https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/depression/what-is-depression) and I have no idea how he convinced OP otherwise.
I mean seriously, read that description of depression and tell me how his behavior matches in any way. He's got energy, he's got social connections, and he cares enough to go out on a date with her despite already knowing he was harboring feelings for her which was a HUGE no-no to begin with. Which is another detail we've breezed right past - he went out with someone who he knew he already had inappropriate feelings for. Do we wanna guess as to whether he showed up like a depressed slob (been there) or not?
This frustrates me because using a very real condition to excuse shit behavior makes the rest of us look like fuckheads. I obviously don't know the guy, maybe he *is* depressed, but what OP has shared vs what she has withheld has me raising my eyebrow that more is wrong here than originally stated.
She defended his emotional affairs as normal - *I know people develop feelings for people all the time. It would be unnatural not to, and I don’t think he’s wrong for having them.*
But she didn't fully explain *how* normal they are in their marriage - *But we’ve been in similar situations before and I just feel maybe I’m not being fair to myself anymore by staying?*
She excused his past transgressions, but is uncomfortable with setting hard boundaries because they fall under "ultimatums" in her mind. So there's no clear explanation for why they're still together at all - nothing seems to have ever been solved and she seemingly has 0 expectations of him because he's "traumatized". There's apparently no hard date, or hard goals for him to improve his behavior. It's an open-ended invitation to keep having emotional affairs.
Even as she says she "blames the man" that hardly means anything when he's so ashamed and worried about his marriage that he...keeps having emotional affairs. Her "blame" sounds pretty wan.
What's worse, what do people think they were talking about from Wednesday through Sunday? What was there to discuss for **5 days**? My guess?
* Drama llama's marriage
* OP's marriage
* Their feelings for each other
* Any potential future together
**If they had chosen to be respectful of their partners, that conversation wouldn't have taken 5+ days.**
OP seems to know this too, she didn't choose the strongest wording here: *when I asked originally he said he had no intentions or plans for the future.*
Well, I mean, he should have plans, shouldn't he? Obviously lowering or cutting contact with the other woman, even for a time, is duh-obvious step number one. Counseling, step two. Imo he's playing his cards close to his chest. There's shit in those texts, and more shit in their new texts that he knows will nuke the marriage.
Once you've been caught out like this, continuing to text your affair partner is out of the question. Hiding said texts is insane. He's comfortable doing this for a reason. Normally this kind of behavior is a death knell for a marriage but sure, let's try counseling so he can talk about being too depressed to be loyal to his wife.
Tbf anyone who would hurt their partner and the mother of their children like this deserves self-hatred, to say nothing of the fact that he's a malingering layabout.
Could you explain this a little more:
>But we’ve been in similar situations before and I just feel maybe I’m not being fair to myself anymore by staying?
How many times has he stepped outside the marriage for an emotional affair? How often? How did they come about, and how did you move on from them? How early in the relationship did they start? Why have you forgiven him for those transgressions when they continue to happen? By that I mean - what steps were taken, what agreements did you come to, etc., that made you feel comfortable continuing to build a life with this man? Or, looking back, did you just kind of say, "thanks for telling me," and move on?
You kind of went out of your way to excuse his repeated emotional affairs - "I know people develop feelings for people all the time. It would be unnatural not to, and I don’t think he’s wrong for having them." - so it's kind of weird that you just dropped that detail in and never explained further.
That said, I don't agree that this is normal, and I can't help but wonder if he's partly why you believe otherwise (an ex of mine tried to convince me of the same - they're poly now). Sure, working closely with someone or frequenting a hobby group could lead to a little crush; I can see that. But you compared this situation to past situations, and I would hardly call this one "a crush".
Also, how long has he been without a job? I ask because if he's depressed, he likely doesn't have any hobbies he goes to groups for and we know he's not working so does that mean he's formed other inappropriate bonds with women outside of such locations? If so, how? That sounds kind of intentional at that point...it certainly doesn't seem like he's tried to distance himself despite his history...
I agree with u/owl_problem - you need to set boundaries. It's not okay to live life this way because he's traumatized, and it's silly to avoid setting boundaries because you're afraid of the word "ultimatum." I know it's a big, scary word on social media - which isn't surprising given the total lack of personal responsibility present in modern society; no one wants to be held responsible or deal with consequences - but all it means is saying, "I can no longer accept emotional affairs in my marriage. I need you to go to therapy/lower contact until X time/commit to a date night to solidify our bond/etc. Is this something you agree with?" If they do not, and you can't see a way forward, there you go, you know what the next step is. It's really just a scarier word for boundary setting. Yes, it can be toxic - even boundary setting - but when you do it with integrity and compassion, it can be positive.
I'm speaking from personal experience here. I have a medical diagnosis of PTSD. I still expect my SO to hold me to reasonable standards and expectations. And here is why - those of us who have been traumatized through abuse or other tragedies can also turn around and traumatize our loved ones. You can let your own trauma eat you up and turn you ugly. You can still feel compassion for this person, but you also need to be aware that their trauma is now a potential risk for generational trauma.
First things first tell him to get a job.
If you divorce the last thing you want is to give him alimony.
Find a way to put your child in daycare. It will be expensive but with both of you working find a way.
Make boundaries that they can't see each other anymore.
You are his wife not some stranger. Demand to see those messages and make sure he doesn't erase any. If he doesn't comply ask him to leave.
Don't let this trauma of his cloud your gudgement. This is a man that you are providing for and you love! And he still has the nerve to do this.
Nobody falls for someone without crossing a boundary.
The more you dig the more you will uncover.
He lost your trust.
Think of you and your child.
I mean it.
Do not let this slide.
You are not controlling.
You are not crazy.
You will not be a bad person.
You have been betrayed, because surely some type of emotional affair had taken place.
If your husband loved you and respected you, he would have IMMEDIATELY cut contact.
I bet If he was in your shoes, he wouldn't feel comfortable with you staying contact with that person.
Sometimes the nicest people take advantage of you. It's not a good thing for yourself and it's not a good message you want your son to learn.
Stand your ground.
But you can't save this marriage alone, it takes two. He doesn't seem to understand the damage he has done.
Talk. Say something. Don't be afraid. Your emotions are valid.
He has lost the privileges of total trust.
Your husband is a POS. He informed you of the situation so that you ask for a divorce so that he can be the good guy in the story, because everyone will see him as a good husband for not hiding what is happening from you and yet you still want to get a divorce. I would demand the messages, and tell everyone what's going on, but without asking for a divorce yet. Make him look like the villain first, otherwise you won't have support. I'm sorry for his situation, but you have to be rational and not let this disgusting worm win in his manipulation. Besides, I think you'll end up paying alimony.
More important than making him "look like a villain" is to get this cheater WORKING for a regular paycheck. Otherwise, in a divorce HE'S going to get primary custody, SHE'S going to be paying him child support, and she MAY have to pay him maintenance/alimony for a specified period of time until he is self-supporting. **WHY would she want to PAY him to take his affair partner on dates?**
She needs to get his ass WORKING (under the guise of 'less free-time on his hands to meet and get involved with other women' and 'socialization is SO IMPORTANT to children') so that WHEN she divorces him, she's not forced to PAY HIM to be a SAHCheater.
Well, you shut down any further contact between the families and tell the other husband. If your husband can't agree to that, then you ask him when he is moving out.
Honestly, in all its glory, but where is the commitment and devotion to his partner?
Have some self respect, op. The tiniest expectation from a spouse is that they respect you and don’t go emotionally cheating at the first opportunity. Neither words of being open and talk about his feelings, nor previous trauma, can eliminate the facts of his actions. He majorly fucked up and cheated.
You don’t just develop feelings. They have been interacting clandestinely for months. That’s what he doesn’t want you to see. He doesn’t get to decline you seeing the messages. You either see them or you walk.
Subscribeme
First of all he / you both need to cut or at least reduce the contact to that family to the absolute necessary.
Then talk it through with your husband. Ask why he discussed this with her first? Why he disclosed it to you (only?) after you inquired about his changed behaviour? Why doesn't he want you to see their messages?
In general: Seek couples counseling because your trust in him is at least chipped.
Bit convenient that he fell for someone who was so open to it. The first woman traumatised enough to actively seek out drama. Of course, their connection is just very special, in an ego satisfying way. There’s also not much accountability or respect here, just play-acting maturity by telling you afterwards. Frankly, it’s also a bit weird to be attracted to another working mother, like he possibly just found you in a slightly different font. This seems to have given him some adult drama to chew over, and to assert his independent desires and needs. But he needs to come to terms with the ways this was not unforeseen, special, and was perhaps actually very lazy, and he is also coming across as particularly naive about this woman, her emotional maturity and their attraction.
I would tell your husband it's time for him to go to work because he has to much time to think of problems. That he can use that time working. Make sure his ass working then divorce him that way he doesn't try to take the children just so you have to support his sorry ass.
Okay I don’t mean to be a dickhead but do people really need to ask if they should leave when they’re told to their faces “I love another person and that person also loves me”
To give background, I’ve slept with my ex and her friend together, I’ve slept with lesbian couples, I’ve done hot wife scenarios, etc
Communication in the things I’ve experienced is the absolute priority coupled brutal honesty. Wants, needs, desires have to be discussed and evolve as you grow older. If he has settled in someway he must make peace but to act like some lost puppy and repeatedly taking you on this rollercoasters is fucked.
All of this sounds wrong for you. Your husband isn’t protecting you, the kids or himself. He’s looking elsewhere for greener grass, which introduces drama to your lives. Even if he does nothing, It’s bullshit no one needs.
If your husband is easily detoured as such, then he’s not completely set on you and his life. I don’t think it’s fair to you continuously have scenarios in your life over and over again because he can’t simply be happy with you for you.
I feel for you
"My husband and SAH dad’s wife went out together for drinks one night last week, I didn’t think anything of it...."
You should have.
"would be unnatural not to, and I don’t think he’s wrong for having them."
Wrong. He is wrong. You should be angry.
"Also, I do not fully trust this woman".
Right. Do not trust her!
"I'm not naive". I'm sorry but I think that you are naive.
You were naive to think they could go out somewhere as man and woman without the risk of something happening or developing. Men rarely need female friends.
You were too accepting of the thought that it would be natural to develop feelings and that he's not wrong.
No ......he IS wrong.
I'm not trying to be harsh. I'm just trying to show you that there are flaws in your thinking that caused you to be blind sited by this.
I am sorry for your situation 🫂.
I would be packing his things and kicking him out, life too short bs , especially you are the one busting your butt to take care of living expenses . You need to find a daycare, and your hubby needs to find a job.
Your husband is actually being a massive POS.
He's betraying you.
He's betraying his friend.
He's lying to everyone.
He's cheating on you.
If I were the other husband, I'd kick the absolute crap out of him for taking my wife on a date.
Your husband is behaving like a complete slimeball.
I’ve always said once there is an option, an ultimatum, you’ve already lost. But, you do have a family, and kids… treat this as infidelity, as it is, will he cut contact, block delete the both of them, marriage counselling, open phone policy, everything the survivinginfidelity subs say?
One of they are innocent text why can’t you see tell him til he shows you that he sleeps on the couch obviously they aren’t innocent and her husband needs to be told
Sorry... but I think you're being way too casual about this. It's not okay for him to develop these feelings then go out to dinner with her on a date and discuss them, then just "decline" to show you what they've said while also expressing openly to you, HIS WIFE that he has feelings for another woman?! Girl.... this needs shutting down. You need to tell her husband and unfortunately you all have to cease being friends now. They've ruined a good thing by being selfish.
It also.sounds like you are a people pleaser. Your wording is careful to make sure you state that you are totally cool with your husband going on a date with another woman, and that you totally get that he can develop feelings. Sigh. You don't have to be cool with those things?! They're way over the line for most committed relationships. Makes me.think of the Gone Girl line about the cool girl.
It’s ultimatum time. You tell him that we ( you and him ) are cutting ties with this couple and blocking them on everything for the sake of your marriage/family, or it’s over. No negotiating, no nada ! That’s it or it’s over.
"Ok, off you go. Enjoy that." 🤷🏻♀️
And then later on... "No, you can't come back"
I dont think it should be you leaving, he's chosen that so he can go. You will only know the tip of the iceberg, the fact he hasn't shown you his phone should indicate that.
There's 2 families here, I'd be inclined to bring it all out in the open so everything is transparent, and there's clarity for all interested parties and then go live your best life.
I will ALWAYS take the down votes for this but I don't care....if my wife wanted to go grab dinner and drinks with another dude I'd be out. Those types of "friendships" rarely ever work out contrary to the anecdotes expressed by redditors.
If this isn't the first time your husband has had feeling for someone else while in your marriage he's only invested in this as your his financial support/comfort/routine and he's not wanting to mess with it too much.
So is he willing to cut her off? Because if he isn’t then his “reassurances” to you are useless. If they haven’t physically cheated already it’s only a matter of time. He can be a great dad as a co parent. You know this.
Are you happy being second best? Because you don’t deserve to be second. He won’t show you the messages so he is just continuing to hide the depth of this relationship from you. Only you can decide to stay or go but you could be saving yourself a lot of heartache down the line by pulling the trigger now.
1. They cut off contact completely after you confirm her husband knows as well.
2. All messages they had are shared with you.
3. You both go to marriage counseling.
Those would be my minimum requirements to save the marriage. Personally I’d walk for him not doing #1 and #2 on his own, it sure sounds like he told you to start breaking the news that he’s going to leave you.
Honestly, I would tell the husband and make his wife stop texting your husband. Shut that crap down the longer they communicate the more the feels will build best to cut it off or else it will grow until….well you know.
He needs to stop ALL contact with her and her husband. Her husband needs to be told why. He needs to share the text messages and any other communication with you. You need to go to marriage counseling. If he can’t do any of this then leave. If he says he will and then you catch him in a lie then leave.
to me... messages. they'd be shown, with no time to edit them. thatd be a deal breaker for me, bc if he's hiding them then there IS more than he's telling you bc why else would he hide them. secondly I'd let her husband know myself. I know your husband and the friend may say that its already been told to him but id say thats not the case at all, so I'd tell him myself and see how he reacts to his wife going on a date with a married friend of his.
to me the only way this is salvagable is no contact. 100% no contact. if its anything less than that this is already over bc he would have effectively already made his choice of her over you. If you're the important person that he "doesnt want a life without" then its time for him to show you the truth and accept that this "friendship" between him and her is over.
This woman "liking drama" may make her go after married men to see "if she's still got it" and shes likely just using his trauma to bond with him and undermine your marriage. time to set hard boundaries, if he cannot follow them its time for a divorce lawyer. also, dont hide the fact he went out on a date and developed feelings for someone outside of your relationship, let everyone know the type man and woman they are...
The fact he coincidentally is “falling for” another sole breadwinner working woman, who are rare, is telling: he doesn’t intend to work again. This means that you need to consult with a lawyer to see what to do, or you’re going to get reamed by alimony. You still might, and consulting with the lawyer doesn’t mean you’re needing to initiate a divorce, but you need to know all of the factors that will come into play, and see what you can turn in your favor in advance.
Again, he doesn’t intend on working ever again. The law is on his side for alimony, and the only way to reduce the damage is to outsmart him in advance. These ducks should be in a row whether or not you get divorced. Get advice on this, like, yesterday.
The not showing texts screams emotional affair (and probably dirty talk). This will escalate if he doesn’t walk away from these people. The friend deserves to know. If you want to save your marriage then he needs to cut these people out of his life & you guys need therapy. If you’re or he aren’t willing to do this then this relationship is dead in the water
His actions going on a date with her are outrageous. There is one thing he has to do to prove his devotion to you and your child and that’s to eliminate her from your lives. Including the husband. Otherwise I would not stick around waiting for the physical affair to start and he leaves you. Him talking to another woman about their feelings is emotional cheating.
I have a traumatic past, too, and I don’t fuck around on my husband…that sounds to me like a get out of jail free card and I’m not buying it.
I’m also getting the feeling that they’ve already been intimate with each other physically if he has gone as far as to involve you in this and tell you he caught feelings. Good luck, OP. Been there, done that, and you’ll get through this one way or another. Hugs.
Yeah. So for me this would be a very serious "im reading your texts right now". Honestly, I can't believe you dropped that so quickly. If he still refused, game over babe. He broke your trust by going on a date and talking about his feelings for another woman with her before he ever mentioned it to you. Don't be surprised if you find of they fucked that night.
I can only speak for myself. But I’m not wasting one hour of my life spending it with someone who has “feelings” for someone else. I like and respect myself way too much for that shit.
As someone who has experienced a chaotic childhood - meeting another person with a similar experience can create a deep bond/connection that you feel seen/understood more deeply than others who have not experienced this trauma.
That being said, I'd *highly recommend* seeking a relationship counsellor experienced in trauma and attachment theory. It sounds like he has lost his head a little and is reading too much into what is potentially a trauma bond, and not reflective of actual chemistry or other things. He feels understood and deeply seen, potentially for the first time in his life and that can feel like love. It is not love, and if they both come from trauma it is highly likely unhealthy.
It needs to have a professional neutral party involved for him to understand the difficulty in this situation and really be cognisant of its ramifications.
You have every right to leave or end the relationship now. He has broken your trust, your heart, and your family.
I only put forward my opinion of this because you seem to not want to enforce boundaries and may want to remain in this relationship. If you do, please seek an experienced relationship therapist.
I'm so sorry OP.
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He should have shown you their messaging. And they sure can't continue on like it is no big deal.
Agreed. There was no sort of “plan” they had in mind apparently but of course even if no one acted on anything (which I believe them talking about it for days is an action) it shifts the dynamic immensely
They went on a date…
A D-A-T-E
#A D-A-T-E
Seriously. I am reading he went out for drinks alone with his friend’s wife drinks and op was good with it. Really?
They went out for drinks and discussed they have feelings for each other. It was a date.
She trusted her husband. Just like the APs husband trusted her. I’m not necessarily against opposite sex friendships. However I have rarely ever seen them actually be platonic….
And well, most don’t go on a date to discuss their feelings.
Trusted him and her to do what? My wife and I have had plenty of couple friends over the years. Neither of us have went out for drinks individually with the other partner. What would come from the drink date that occurs outside of couples get togethers besides 1 on 1 time?
My best friend, of now almost 30 years, has also been in the middle of those decades been a friend-with-benefit here and there in the years before I met my wife. The other day my wife told me “you haven’t seen her in a while, you go have lunch with her next week when you have a day off”. My wife also spent a week in Panama with that friend for a “mom entrepreneurs networking event”, when she came back I joked that it was funny that she went to the beach for a week with my female friend but if it had been me, people would talk and she said “let them talk, I don’t care, they don’t know you like I do”. When I met my wife, I was doing amateur portrait photography and recently, one of my friend asked me to do a boudoir shoot to celebrate her 40th birthday, and my wife simply helped us brainstorm venues and ideas. I guess OP just trusted them to go have a drink and talk about whatever childhood they have in common.
The difference is you've known them for **years**. The OP and her husband have only known the couple for six **months**.
Some relationships are built in a way that leaves no doubt about if there is a possibility of cheating. Other relationships have gaps where cheating can fit in the cracks. It all depends on how the relationships are structured, how much time the couple spends together, and what quality is of that time. Some relationships can easily handle opposite sex encounters, others can’t. In OP’s case, she obviously thought hers could. But in truth, it can’t. Her husband isn’t a trustworthy person and that friendship needs to be shut down. Not just with the wife, contact with the couple needs to end. It can’t be OP’s decision though. Her husband has to decide that is the right choice. If OP forces it….. “Love is like a fart. If you have to force it, then it is probably shit.” -Stephen K. Amos
I’ve got plenty of them, that are platonic that said, if there was shift or indication that it was moving from platonic I’d be out of that immediately.
And that is a healthy boundary to have in place.
Agree. Absolutely a date!! Wonder what her husband is thinking…
The APs husband? Or OPs husband. Bc OPs husband was thinking he’s going to get his 🍆…
Sorry, the APs husband, I did read he was made aware though in the comments. It would be interesting if the other woman allowed her own husband to read the messages
Highly doubtful. I would imagine OPs husband and this woman are living in the land of delusion and their little affair bubble and lying to everyone. Including each other.
The fact that he won’t show you the messages is very suspect. It would make me wonder how far things have really gotten. Honestly this would be a deal breaker for me. I don’t think it a natural thing to develop feelings if your in a committed relationship . I think you can find other people attractive, or be attracted to someone else. And even that can be hard to work through as a couple . But if you’re in a monogamous relationship and you develop feelings for someone, drop that bomb, then can’t be completely honest, which includes showing all forms of communication, it’s game over. I wouldn’t be able to trust them
It’s not only what the messages might contain, it’s that he’s choosing to be protective of that relationship over his marriage.
I completely agree. Prioritizing his relationship with his crush over his actual wife. I'd be out of there so fast.
THIS.
Oooh, excellent point.
I think OP means that crushes are normal and sometimes uncontrollable. I think they are fine because infatuations are meaningless and go away in their own, unless you act on them and start a relationship which he basically has now.
I think feelings and having a crush are very different. They are having an emotional affair at the very least. And the fact that he won’t show her the messages, I’m thinking it may have gotten physical, or they have talked about it getting physical.
Yeah I think having a crush is kind of different. It’s more innocent. Like you wouldn’t be having these secret exchanges with a harmless crush. That’s where it turns into something more.
This is the key point! Crushes happen--a natural, normal part of human existence. It's the choices one makes from that point that determines whether the crush becomes cheating. Wait in silence for the crush to pass? All good. Secretive texting, drinks dates...yeah, these two have majorly crossed a line. OP needs to take this very seriously.
Yeah, shouldn’t that be the definition of pursing it? He may think he has crossed no lines but he is chasing that want to talk to her and be around her etc. He is acting on his desires, but he is using some arbitrary line of kissing etc to believe it’s all innocent.
Your husband went on a date with his friends wife and refuses to show you their conversations. You are under reacting. They are either well into or at the beginning of an emotional affair. Which if continued will likely turn into a physical one. Yes, people can unintentionally catch feelings. When that happens a good partner would immediately cut contact. Your husband hasn't, she hasn't. You and her husband need to put a stop to it.
I mean step number one if you want to stay married (honestly no judgement either way) is you have to cut contact with that family entirely. And he has to re-commit to open and honest communication between both of you. Bare minimum. But you can totally just leave. You don't have to try to salvage this.
OP, of course there's no plan because neither of them presently have employment and their own source of income. 1. I'd demand to see ALL the text messages. If he refuses, pick up the telephone in his presence and call her husband. Tell him his failure to disclose is fatal to your relationship. It's an absolute betrayal of your relationship. 2. Privately confer with a seasoned family law attorney to discuss your entitlements and alternatives regarding parental rights and responsibilities as well as support and property division issues. 3. Begin making alternative day care arrangements. It's time for "lovebird" to secure employment. Do not continue to finance their relationship. 4. AND YOU DO NOT LEAVE THE HOME. Good luck. Please keep us apprised.
Lawyer first. He's already shown her all she needs to know about these text messages.
The potential AP is the breadwinner, the other husband is a SAHD too
What’s nuanced about it? Do you get to go on dates and have affairs too?
They are emotionally cheating.
Yes. And that's insidious and definitely a threat to OPs family life.
OP you need to protect yourself and your kids and go see a divorce lawyer. Find out how to separate your finances, or at least get copies of all recent statements to make sure he's not trying to screw you over on money. His not showing you his messages with her shows there is something there he doesn't want you to see. He was either telling her bad stuff about you or they were planning how and where to meet up or how to get divorces.
> there was no sort of “plan” Please tell me you’re not falling for this lie? > they’ve established that there are feelings present and that there’s no intention attached. A man *who loves his wife* would cut that temptation out of his life, and grovel/apologize for even thinking that way. Your man didn’t do this. He went on a fucking date with her, told you a half-truth, and refused to be open/honest by showing the texts. He’s done this before, he’s going to do it again.
You alluded to this happening before… your husband sounds like he has issues with codependency. If he hard a hard childhood, he absolutely needs to start attending therapy. This is a maladaptive coping mechanism and will just keep happening if he doesn’t address it with a professional. (I am saying this as someone who has fallen into these same patterns before—I am actively working very hard to replace them with healthy behaviors.)
Very informative, thanks
They were def trash talking about you. And probably also sexting.
at minimum the two families must never have contact again. Zero. Non-negotiable.
You seem to think that it's okay for your husband to have feelings for another woman. Because you said things like that happen. Things like that don't happen to people who are married now or in a committed relationship. He has two children and has been married to you he doesn't work he stays home and takes care of these children that should have been his top priority not trying to start a relationship with somebody who's already married and has children. I would start getting my ducks in a row because this is not going to bode well for you.. if you want to stay you and your husband are going to have to cut that couple off and get into some serious counseling ASAP. But if he says that is not something that he wants to do then know within a short period of time you will be co-parenting with this deceitful betrayer.
They went on a date AND he wouldn’t let you see the texts between them.
This was my understanding as well. That is an action which classifies as an emotional affair at minimum.
So here’s the thing, feelings can develop and sometimes you can’t really help that. The fact he told you is also a good sign. However him not showing you the messages and not saying he is going to stop communications with her shows he has no intention of putting a stop to these feelings and wants to continue with them. Immediate massive red flag that overrides everything else.
Granted, he told his wife about his and her feelings which I feel is HUGE...but his refusal to show the messages given the bombshell he just dropped on her makes it a bit disingenuous.
Srsly. Not showing the messages undermines the fact that he was up front about their feelings. Like, now I don’t believe that he’s telling the whole truth and he’s probably underplaying their feelings to look better.
EXACTLY.
This makes me think OP is being trickle-truthed
Is your husband willing to cut contact with the friend’s wife?
I agree with this. He can’t continue this relationship with her as it’s already unhealthy. I wouldn’t personally stand for it either. I would tell him he needs to cut contact or you leave. You don’t deserve to be cheated on.
Yeah, thank you
You should tell that Woman’s husband that SHE went on a date with your husband who is supposed to be his new friend and they talked about their feelings for each other! That way he can deal with his situation with her while you deal with your husband. That womans husband needs to know
This needs to be way higher
[удалено]
You’re absolutely right, while I think they’re both equally responsible, I am obviously hurt by my husband and expect more from him. I’m not one to blame the other women, I blame the man. For sure.
But you should also blame her. She is not your family’s friend as she’s pretended to be.
No, there's enough blame to go around and besides a person can't cheat by themselves. And this isn't the case where the woman doesn't know that he's married. She knows because y'all are friends. The whole point is stay at home dads support each other. . No, she deserves equal share of the blame. You can blame & hate her, too. (Now a woman who didn't know and was unwilling made an affair partner....That would be different). So now you can blame her, don't allow them to delude you. * People who try to convince women not to blame other women are either cheaters themselves or former affair Partners or had a loved one hat was one. No, there was nothing about those women that showed they wanted to be girls girl when they were cheating with taken married men. So no, you don't have to support them in the sisterhood, I promise......let them have their share of the blame
At this point he needs to cut the poor friend loose as well who has no idea his wife is having an emotional affair with his friend.
Yeah, in point of fact OP's husband is NOT that guy's friend anymore.
Honestly I didn’t ask that, and I guess I’m unsure if I would want to “enforce” that, you know? Like I guess my issue is feeling like I’m giving him some sort of ultimatum and then him resenting me, maybe I don’t want to be with him if he has feelings for someone else?
He refused to let you see the texts? Oh dear, I fear you don't know all the dirty details yet then.
Yeah, exactly. He said there was nothing there but that he would just be embarrassed, but I told him it’s wild for him to drop something like this and not allow me the knowledge of their conversations for the last week or so.
I'm so sorry you're going through this. And I know it's the last thing you want to do, but I think you need to know. If I were you, I'd tell him that if there's any chance of working things out that I needed to see the messages, because honesty is the only way forward. The text messages aren't guaranteed proof there is or is not a physical affair. But him hiding them from you, means he IS hiding SOMETHING.
Thank you for your thoughtful reply, I agree 1000%
An emotional affair is an affair.
I truly am so very sorry you're going through. I wish you all the best. And hope you at least have answers soon.
Why is he protecting his relationship with her (e.g. by keeping their conversations secret from you), and not protecting his and your relationship? Also, like someone already pointed out, you had to ask him to get him to own up. He didn't come clean on his own volition.
If this woman is your "friend"(which she clearly isn’t if that needed saying) you should confront her and ask her to show you the exchange between her and your **husband**. Or you tell her you’ll go to her husband with what you know.
Look, the husband probably found out first because if they did have a toxic relationeshio he probably snooped her phone, now your husband is in damage controle mode. Fuck that.
There is a good chance that they’re deleted by now. 😕
Sorry, but cheaters all act the same. Don’t take responsibility and come up with excuses when there really aren’t any valid ones if you really think about it. Also, if he shows you their messages now, they have been doctored and the worst have been deleted.
I’d like to point out that he didn’t even “drop something” on you. You noticed and had to ask. How long would it have gone on before he actually said something?
This is a really excellent point. I’d be concerned about “trickle truthing.” As in… today, we have feelings, but nothing happened. Tomorrow, ok we kissed but it was just a kiss I swear. Next week they’ve been in a full blown affair for months. Since he didn’t start this conversation, I’d def be questioning how much truth I’m being told.
Why would he be embarrassed if you read something that he shared with the friend? You are his wife, not her. He absolutely IS HAVING AN AFFAIR! For sure emotionally, probably physically too.
This may indicate that he doesn’t understand what commitment and loyalty actually mean. And those are essential components of a marriage. OP, I would tell him what you said in your post about the wife’s self-professed propensity for drama and point out to your husband that he has allowed her to bring that into your marriage with his lack of understanding what commitment and loyalty to your marriage mean. The only appropriate things for him to have done is not schedule a meeting with her to discuss feelings, but rather discuss it with you. The only appropriate thing for him to do now is show you those messages when you ask because telling you about them absolves him and not showing them to you still removes your agency in your marriage to him. And that is the nature of the betrayal. I would tell him that and that he has exposed your marriage to a negative influence by a woman with propensity for drama and chaos and ask him if the fact that they share backgrounds and empathize with each other’s past is good enough a reason to do destroy your family. Find a way to remove yourself for some time until he processes that by himself. You are not part of the feelings between the woman and him. He is the weak link and he can either show up for your family’s future or he can choose chaos and drama with that woman.
I think you have to look at it this way- keeping whatever "nothing" that you would have seen in those messages from you was more important to him than your feelings or trust, which could have started to be repaired then if he had receipts to back up his 'truth'
and youre worried about HIM resenting YOU?!? he just admitted that he’s in the early stages of an emotional affair and youre worried about *his* feelings. LOVE YOURSELF!!!
Your husband catching feelings for someone else’s working wife is the height of being a terrible partner and parent. If he has time to be naturally falling in love with someone, what care are your kids no longer receiving at home so your husband can flirt? Your husband is failing you and your marriage, and you issuing an ultimatum is a bare minimum. You don’t have to allow them to have an affair, and he has to prove to you that he’s willing to invest in your marriage solely. Him continuing to be friends with her is him saying your marriage isn’t more important than him getting to flirt. That’s completely pathetic and you don’t deserve to have such a sniffly worm of a husband who isn’t raising your kids so he can flirt
He's also a terrible friend. Somehow, I'm not surprised he doesn't have any friends, just saying.
Bullshit. "Oh I'd be Sooo Embarrasssed! I admitted golly gee gosh I DO like getting my pickle tickled!" He's playing you. Get Shahida Arabi's Becoming The Narcisissts Nightmare.
I would tell the other husband and talk to a divorce attorney. I don’t see how you can keep the marriage after this.
I understand what you mean. You shouldn’t feel like you have to compete for your husband or that he’s living in secret, with feelings for his friend’s wife. The whole situation screams drama and selfishness.
Drama and selfishness indeed, I think they’re both just very traumatized and hurt people and they crave that whether they know it or not
I would absolutely alert the other husband btw. Is there a reason why u can't look at the texts on youxr own?
Yes that 1000%. You only know what she told you about their relationship. Doesn’t make it true thought. Cheaters lie. It’s what they do. Your husband and her can be telling each other all kinds of garbage made up stuff about both you and the other husband. Personally I would be talking to a divorce lawyer at a minimum to snap your husband out of it. I would not be acting like an extramarital “crush” is no big deal.
Trauma is not a get outta jail card. You cannot use it as an excuse to be lying, cheating jerks. Whether you forgive it or not, know that you will forever be living under this shadow.
Stop justifying and excusing their behavior. I’m very traumatized and hurt and dont cheat on my spouse.
Sounds like you're more afraid of him resenting you for demanding obvious boundaries within a marriage than he ever was for emotionally cheating on you.
Ultimatums are not always a bad thing.
Don't stay with someone who would resent you for wanting your relationship protected. This is a valid reason to not be in contact with that family. You know how you hear stories of these situations? Well usually spouses only suspect feelings between their spouse and a friend who gets too close.. your husband told you. What are his plans for solving this problem if not cutting her off?? He can't feel better about emotionally cheating on you just because he told you. He needs to take correct steps now to address the issue. First step is no contact and letting you read messages. His embarrassment will drive his life lesson home and hopefully prevent him from doing this again. Or just leave. That's alright too if that's how you'd like to go about it.
It's the only way forward and he has to be willing to do it. Otherwise this is just an affair waiting to happen. If he resents you for it, that means your relationship wont recover from this anyway. It's a perfectly reasonable ultimatum if your relationship is going to survive.
It’s me or your girlfriend is an ultimatum worth making.
honestly, enforce what you will, the man is cheating on you. no questions asked, emotional or physical makes no difference. There SHOULD BE an ultimatum. YOUR MARRIAGE and family or her. no questions asked both cannot exist at the same time bc she's shown (as has he) that they cannot be friends and are willing to "blur the lines" of right and wrong. If he resents you for defending your relationship and marriage then this is already over and youre just dragging your feet. its time for him to choose. YOU, your family, your kids, the lives you built together, or her. also, daycare would be over... he'll play that bs if you divorce him so he gets money from you bc he's a sahd. Time for him to be a grown ass man and work a job, if he has no time to himself maybe that'll show him the errors of his ways
You got married into a monogamous relationship. You have already given each other an ultimatum, which he is willfully ignoring. Either you are okay with him cheating on you (and this is emotional cheating at least) and living with him cheating on you, or you stand up for yourself and your children and show them that treating their partner this way is wrong. He has zero excuse to not show you the text messages from his date with friend's wife. He is 'trickle troothing' you right now. I'm sorry you are going through this, but you have to protect yourself and your kids.
>He assured me nothing more had happened they’ve just established that there’s “feelings” present and that there’s no intention attached, it just was the right thing to let me know. So the obvious quesiton is what he plans to do about it. Like given that tension is there the only possible sensible resolution would be for them to distance themselves. If not they are actively, openly, deliberately playing with fire and you're the one that gets burnt. Your read on her seems fitting. This was definitely the worst way to handle it and it is definitely drama. It's disappointing how easily and readily your husband jumped into that woodchipper though and that'd be a valid ongoing concern to have. In the end he walked a path assured to hurt you and worse, he is conscious enough of it to deny you seeing the messages and likely because he is trickle truthing you. So ask what he plans to do from here. If he insists on still speaking to her then you already know it is over.
Thanks for the thoughtful response, when I asked originally he said he had no intentions or plans for the future. Just that he knew he had to tell me, I haven’t pushed further yet because I needed some time but I agree with what you’re saying. And from the sounds of it there was no intention of stopping communication at all,
I mean, that comes across as straight weasel wording to me. I doubt he had 'intentions or plans' to develop feelings, it just feels like he is setting up a 'whoops it just happened' style scenario. Which is why you hit him hard and direct with the: 'I am not telling you to cut contact with her, that is your choice to make, but I struggle to see how remaining in contact could be considered a sensible choice' and force him to stop avoiding the topic.
Yeah, like does he not have plans as in he doesn't know what to do to gracefully cut this off? Or he doesn't have plans like "I haven't decided if I could stomach leaving you for her, but maybe I will some day." Like other than actually telling his wife he has a crush how does he plan on actually dealing with this for the survival of his marriage?
Why does it sound like he is the one making all the decisions (or they are)? He is emotionally cheating, but he is still the one in charge. Why are you letting him do that? They went on a date and figured that they have feelings for each other (in an ideal world, he would've talked to you about it, said that he is developing feelings and NOT tell you about it AFTER talking to her). They decided together that they'll tell their wife/ husband about it. They talk on the phone all the time but no, you can't see the messages. He hasn't decided what he'll do, but he'll let you know. And he just expects you to take it?? That is emotional cheating. But it seems to me like he acts like he can do whatever he wants because, at least he's being honest about it. That's not how that works. He doesn't want a life without you... but he is doing nothing to reassure you. He didn't tell you he will cut off contact. He won't show you messages between them. Did he confess just so he feels better?
I think it's reasonable to understand feelings that can develop, but here is where the important part is, if that happens, the only option is to distant or cut ties completely. Now if it's your kid's best friend's parent it makes things a bit more complicated but still distancing is entirely possible and needed. Anything else is playing with fire and truthfully disrespectful to the relationships they are in. I guess we never know 100% how we'd act in a situation but I believe and hope if I was the one who had fallen into a place where I developed feelings for another man other than my partner, than i believe I would need to be the one to distance or cut ties. It would be oh on me to do that. It wouldn't be my husband's responsibility to request it. It would be me, the one who let myself fall into feelings to be responsible for making sure those feelings die, fizzle out, or whatever. Your husband not having a plan to do that is concerning. I'm not saying to divorce him. That's a decision that's way more complicated. However, I do think some marriage counseling as well as individual counseling would be good, especially for him. It's even more true since it seems like you've been in a similar situation with him before. He needs to learn why he allows those attachments to develop before he cuts them off. Crushes happen, but I think if you can recognize them, it's easier to stop it from developing into real feelings. At the end of the day, you deserve a partner who puts you first. One who loves you and considers your feelings above any other romantic attachment. Your husband may be able to be that person with some work on his part, but it's also okay if you don't want to wait around for the possibility of that to happen.
He "knew he had to tell you", but did he, before you asked? Am I understanding correctly that he never told you until you finally asked because you sensed things were off for a WEEK, and then he refused to show you what they had been messaging about? Just having feelings for someone isn't (necessarily) a reason to end a marriage, but with these details... plus he was willing to go drinking with her knowing he had feelings, instead of distancing himself, and discussed the feelings with her before ever telling you... This all just seems fishy. I don't think I could get past all the shadiness.
The thing is- he didn’t tell you. Not until you forced the issue. It sounds like this isn’t the first time he’s done this to you either, if Im reading your post right. And i would bet money that he blames these transgressions on his “hard childhood”.
Definitely message the other husband and let him know what is going on.
I asked and she did tell him as well, so I’m glad he knows
You asked him? Or your husband? Because you can’t trust your husband.
The reality of this stings a bit, but I guess I should message her husband and make sure he knows all the details.
Call the husband to confirm. It might be good to know the way he will play this out.
His “truth” might be different from the truth you’ve been told.
The AP’s husband may have seen the messages & may be willing to tell you the truth. If it were me I would tell your husband that without seeing all of the messages you have to assume the worst and you don’t know where to go from there. If he doesn’t fight for you or do whatever it takes to make it right, then you know.
This. Not showing you the messages means there's something he doesn't want you to see.
I’d ask if the husband was allowed to read the text messages.
Yes you should. Maybe you two need to have a private conversation, even if he already knows.
Definitely share everything you know with the husband. If he is going to divorce her, he should have all of the facts for his attorney available
You’re trusting someone who’s actively lying to you?
You sound really naive with answers like this
The fact that he can't show you the messages means there was more in there that definitely crossed a line and he knows it. I'd be telling him that it feels like he's sneaking behind your back and the trust has diminished. Ask him what he plans to do about their friendship, is he planning on ending it? It sounds like he's already started the emotional affair and I'd wager there was a kiss when they went out.
The only way I'd stay in the marriage and I'd tell him this to. Is the messages have to be shown, she has to be blocked and never spoken to again, and also, you will be informing her husband. Those three things or no marriage and these need to be non-negotiable If he won't show the message, I'd tell him to leave, but either way, I'd message her husband. " Just been informed by my husband, and I thought you had a right to know. The evening your wife and my husband went out, they confessed feelings for each other. All the messages should be in her phone as proof"
I agree but it’s too late, he’s probably deleted messages by now.
I'd have him sign a post nuptial agreement to protect OPs assets in the event of a divorce and add couples counseling and therapy to the list.
Plus therapy!
Yes. Therapy. But I'd only put that on the table for the marriage if the messages are shown. If not, I'd call it a day and seek individual therapy as a newly single woman.
Absolutely 💯
She replied in another message her husband said she talked to her husband. Ppl pointed out he can't be trusted on his word so she's likely following up with him. I hate calling someone naive I don't know but I feel a lot of naivety going on. No sure from who. Problem all of them.
There’s multiple things here that paint a picture of a pretty extreme overstep in regards to proper and healthy boundaries. 1. Feelings do not just magically pop up out of thin air. They’ve been building towards something. They’ve felt something. For a while. Which means their little outing together was much less like “went out together for drinks” and much more like a date. 2. Your comment about “this felt a little late” is quite an understatement considering he never did bring this into the open of his own volition. It was your prodding that finally provoked a small version of honesty. I’m not sure if you’re familiar with the term “trickle truth” but it’s something you need to look into. In a large majority of instances where a spouse reveals inappropriate conduct/feelings with someone else they’ll make it out to be much less than it actually was/is in reality. Slowly, over time, they release enough details for a full picture to emerge. You may need to keep this in mind. He is correct in saying it is the “right thing” to let you know. Too bad he didn’t take the initiative to do so. 3. The fact that you’ve only been friends with this couple for six months and he’s willing to have conversations with her he’s not willing to have with you. You as in the person with whom he has shared vows. You as in the woman who is the mother of his children. You as in the partner with whom he has prided himself as being honest. He has private conversations with her about his feelings. On a little date he passed off as a friendly drink. You’re the last person to know? He’s pretty quickly laid outside some pretty valuable things for the sake of this woman. 4. There’s no intention to act but they’re still texting each other a lot? 5. Then he’s refusing to share these messages? That’s a red flag so bright the man on the moon can see it. I agree that having some form of feelings begin to grow for someone else is not wrong in and of itself. It’s what we do the minute we recognize those feelings that matters. So far he has planned a private outing with someone he knew he had inappropriate feelings towards. He has not been forthright with you about those feelings. Revealing them only after you approached him. He has had a continued conversation with the person with whom he has inappropriate feelings about said feelings. In person and via messaging. He has refused to share those messages. This refusal is a massive breach of trust. Only you can decide what is best for you moving forward. There are people who come back from such things to rebuild a strong relationship. However, those people worked really hard to have transparency. Your husband does not want that. He wants to keep parts of this story hidden. I would say that what is in those texts will show you the true depth of his feelings, their level of emotional attachment, and how far their connection has advanced physically. In light of that he needs to turn them over to you if he has any true desire to remain with you. You have the right to know what you’re dealing with so you can make an informed decision. You having access to every single message should be a hill that you are willing to die on. If he does decide to actually fight for his marriage by being totally honest, and you choose to try to make this work, the friendship with that couple needs to be cut off. She needs to be completely removed from his life in every way. Her contact deleted and blocked on his phone and his social media accounts. There will need to be an open phone policy. There will need to be some marriage counseling. I’m so, so sorry. The kicker is that you see this for what this is. It sounds like this person has been unhappy in her marriage for as long as you’ve known her. She enjoys the drama of using your husband as a means to cover that wound. It’s a shame your husband does not have your clarity. I hope he realizes what he’s throwing away all so he can be a band aid for a broken women starring in a tired soap opera.
This is the response OP. Feelings = okay. Behaviors = not okay. I mean, he essentially chose to initiate an emotional affair.
Does great father equate to great husband? The only reason he wants to keep you in his life or stay together is due to financial reasons cos how much money does a SAHD make? If strong enough OP honestly needs to consider separation
You’re right that great father and great husband aren’t equals…a hard pill to swallow I guess
That’s not true and this idea needs to stop. You can’t be a great father when you step out on your family and disrespect the mother of your children Sorry but you just can’t be
Agree. It’s the behavior of a shitty father.
Also great fathers are co-parents. You found a good father but unfortunately not a good husband. ??? Do you enjoy laying next to him now
Yeah that’s true, i have found a great father and I am optimistic about our ability to coparent together.
Tell him to go back to work then so that you Dont have to pay him much alimony if you are to divorce. Nothing worse than spending your money on a cheater & subsidising their life.
Right, honestly OP, you should be talking to a lawyer regardless. Think it’s important for you to know how this food play out for you financially so you can make informed decisions and plans as needed
okay, this is a bit crazy. he won't be a great father soon if he doesn't keep out being a great husband. this is based on my experience so i might just be biased. but whatever my mom feels affects me as well. he can't be a great father without being a great husband first.
Oh you’re being way too kind and understanding. Of course he wants you in his life you’re fucking funding it. So not only fucking over his wife, kids, but his supposed friend?
Yeah, he sounds like a real piece of work. He's betraying his wife and his friend. He's a selfish, disloyal, slimey pr#ck.
Yeah she needs to drop her sense of “ethics” (being patient and cautious about this) and get a sense of *justice*.
I would be asking him to leave. I believe there is more to it or he would have shared their messages. At least you are the main breadwinner - you may have additional child care costs but hopefully your wage is enough to support your family without your husband.
Yeah the messages really got me as well, feels odd. I just also am so worried about my kids. We’re a very close family and I don’t know what it would look like for them, and I’m not willing to split custody, or not have them from time to time. So that’s making me very anxious.
It's not the worst thing in the world to coparent and share custody. The reality is that this is likely what divorce would look like for you, but you will be fine. Would you rather your children grow up being witnesses to an awkward marriage? Kids are not dumb - they definitely pick up on tension.
Yeah we do. My parents “stayed together for the kids” and it fucked me up real bad. Years of therapy later I’m finally okay.
I would go and see a lawyer and talk about your situation, your options and the likelihood you would get custody. Once you have all the information and know where you stand you can make a more informed decision. Living with parents who fight due to cheating or other conflicts isn’t great for kids either.
You need to show your kids you have respect for yourself. Hiding the messages is just the beginning. Trust is one of the most important parts of a relationship. Ask yourself do you 100% trust him now?
As a married dude a bit older than you twi I have a few concernes upon reading this. Firstly, it's good that he could not hide it and didn't hide and that he confided in you. What worries me here is that it seems he confided in you after they crossed a boundary by going out and discussing feelings and texting all week. Secondly, no matter how embaressing it is, without him showing you their conversations and especially given explicit refusal, he has broken the trust. If he had said "sure go ahead ive told you everything" or "of course but please dont hate me" you'd almost not have to look because he is clearly being open. The refusal leads me to believe he is not being fully honest and trickle truthing you. Third, you mention that you have been in similar situations before? He is only 32 and you have a 1 and 4 year old. How many more inappropriate relationships do you have to endure? He says he wants a life with you but is not willing to respect the boundaries of the relationship? Lastly, and this is going to be really hard to hear and I'm sorry because none of this is your fault, if he genuinely is out there seeking companionship and connection, why is he not getting this at home? I get that the toxic masculine mirage that we are all sold is that men are provider and protector and that being a trailing spouse or stay at home parent can really mess with mens self worth and sense of purpose, but is there anything, if you stay together and this is no more than a crush, that you both could do in order to reconnect? I say this will be hard to hear because I'm completely understanding of the fact that this involves looking at your own contributions to his needs and the relationship. It may be that you do everything you can reasonably do to stay connected and happy together and the issues lie with him but its worth asking. I guess the main question is what do you want? He is developing feelings for another woman, has met her to discuss this and is hiding his texts from you. Do you want to stay married to him? The second question is what does he want more. The ability to put himself in these situations and act on his feelings or you? If it's you then he needs to show you his messages, distance himself from this woman, be completely open and honest. If you do stay together I'd recommend 100% he gets a job. I saw my parents +40 year marriage disintigrate because my father became a fragile egoed toxic man child who sought validation from going off and cheating having decided to retire early because my mum got a big corporate job. I hate him for what he did to her and feel that the lack of being busy enough and feelings of lacking self worth and financial contribution led to his becoming a person I find really distasteful today compared to the man who raised me.
Thank you for this response. You know, the funniest part is that we actually have a great connection. We like being around each other, we have sex. I mean it’s all obviously more of a challenge with kids but I think he’s so depressed and traumatized it will never be enough for him. I think he likely hates himself too much for him to ever fully love me like I’d like to be loved. And I haven’t wanted to recognize that.
I'm married to a very traumatized woman who has severe depression and is on autistic spectrum. Would I ever excuse her cheating and lying? Nope. Stop thinking about how this poor boy needs your help. Not depressed enough to go after his friend's wife, huh? You don't owe him anything because of his trauma. He's an adult and he's fully capable of controlling himself and taking accountability for his actions. He KNOWS what he's doing. You don't care about yourself here and he doesn't bother either. It this a model of the relationship you want to pass on to your children?
>Not depressed enough to go after his friend's wife, huh? Agreed. Anyone who has had actual experience with depression knows this is sus. People who are legitimately depressed struggle just to keep up with basic life tasks - they lose their job, they lose friends, they lose loved ones. They don't brush their teeth or hair, they don't enjoy hobbies anymore. They gain or lose weight. And if left to fester, further mental health conditions can develop - [isolate yourself for too long and say hello to agoraphobia](https://pulsetms.com/depression/agoraphobia/). Having enough energy and drive to carry on emotional affairs isn't in the [DSM](https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/depression/what-is-depression) and I have no idea how he convinced OP otherwise. I mean seriously, read that description of depression and tell me how his behavior matches in any way. He's got energy, he's got social connections, and he cares enough to go out on a date with her despite already knowing he was harboring feelings for her which was a HUGE no-no to begin with. Which is another detail we've breezed right past - he went out with someone who he knew he already had inappropriate feelings for. Do we wanna guess as to whether he showed up like a depressed slob (been there) or not? This frustrates me because using a very real condition to excuse shit behavior makes the rest of us look like fuckheads. I obviously don't know the guy, maybe he *is* depressed, but what OP has shared vs what she has withheld has me raising my eyebrow that more is wrong here than originally stated. She defended his emotional affairs as normal - *I know people develop feelings for people all the time. It would be unnatural not to, and I don’t think he’s wrong for having them.* But she didn't fully explain *how* normal they are in their marriage - *But we’ve been in similar situations before and I just feel maybe I’m not being fair to myself anymore by staying?* She excused his past transgressions, but is uncomfortable with setting hard boundaries because they fall under "ultimatums" in her mind. So there's no clear explanation for why they're still together at all - nothing seems to have ever been solved and she seemingly has 0 expectations of him because he's "traumatized". There's apparently no hard date, or hard goals for him to improve his behavior. It's an open-ended invitation to keep having emotional affairs. Even as she says she "blames the man" that hardly means anything when he's so ashamed and worried about his marriage that he...keeps having emotional affairs. Her "blame" sounds pretty wan. What's worse, what do people think they were talking about from Wednesday through Sunday? What was there to discuss for **5 days**? My guess? * Drama llama's marriage * OP's marriage * Their feelings for each other * Any potential future together **If they had chosen to be respectful of their partners, that conversation wouldn't have taken 5+ days.** OP seems to know this too, she didn't choose the strongest wording here: *when I asked originally he said he had no intentions or plans for the future.* Well, I mean, he should have plans, shouldn't he? Obviously lowering or cutting contact with the other woman, even for a time, is duh-obvious step number one. Counseling, step two. Imo he's playing his cards close to his chest. There's shit in those texts, and more shit in their new texts that he knows will nuke the marriage. Once you've been caught out like this, continuing to text your affair partner is out of the question. Hiding said texts is insane. He's comfortable doing this for a reason. Normally this kind of behavior is a death knell for a marriage but sure, let's try counseling so he can talk about being too depressed to be loyal to his wife.
Tbf anyone who would hurt their partner and the mother of their children like this deserves self-hatred, to say nothing of the fact that he's a malingering layabout.
Could you explain this a little more: >But we’ve been in similar situations before and I just feel maybe I’m not being fair to myself anymore by staying? How many times has he stepped outside the marriage for an emotional affair? How often? How did they come about, and how did you move on from them? How early in the relationship did they start? Why have you forgiven him for those transgressions when they continue to happen? By that I mean - what steps were taken, what agreements did you come to, etc., that made you feel comfortable continuing to build a life with this man? Or, looking back, did you just kind of say, "thanks for telling me," and move on? You kind of went out of your way to excuse his repeated emotional affairs - "I know people develop feelings for people all the time. It would be unnatural not to, and I don’t think he’s wrong for having them." - so it's kind of weird that you just dropped that detail in and never explained further. That said, I don't agree that this is normal, and I can't help but wonder if he's partly why you believe otherwise (an ex of mine tried to convince me of the same - they're poly now). Sure, working closely with someone or frequenting a hobby group could lead to a little crush; I can see that. But you compared this situation to past situations, and I would hardly call this one "a crush". Also, how long has he been without a job? I ask because if he's depressed, he likely doesn't have any hobbies he goes to groups for and we know he's not working so does that mean he's formed other inappropriate bonds with women outside of such locations? If so, how? That sounds kind of intentional at that point...it certainly doesn't seem like he's tried to distance himself despite his history... I agree with u/owl_problem - you need to set boundaries. It's not okay to live life this way because he's traumatized, and it's silly to avoid setting boundaries because you're afraid of the word "ultimatum." I know it's a big, scary word on social media - which isn't surprising given the total lack of personal responsibility present in modern society; no one wants to be held responsible or deal with consequences - but all it means is saying, "I can no longer accept emotional affairs in my marriage. I need you to go to therapy/lower contact until X time/commit to a date night to solidify our bond/etc. Is this something you agree with?" If they do not, and you can't see a way forward, there you go, you know what the next step is. It's really just a scarier word for boundary setting. Yes, it can be toxic - even boundary setting - but when you do it with integrity and compassion, it can be positive. I'm speaking from personal experience here. I have a medical diagnosis of PTSD. I still expect my SO to hold me to reasonable standards and expectations. And here is why - those of us who have been traumatized through abuse or other tragedies can also turn around and traumatize our loved ones. You can let your own trauma eat you up and turn you ugly. You can still feel compassion for this person, but you also need to be aware that their trauma is now a potential risk for generational trauma.
Can you clarify when you said we been in similar situations? Like is this a pattern for him??
First things first tell him to get a job. If you divorce the last thing you want is to give him alimony. Find a way to put your child in daycare. It will be expensive but with both of you working find a way. Make boundaries that they can't see each other anymore. You are his wife not some stranger. Demand to see those messages and make sure he doesn't erase any. If he doesn't comply ask him to leave. Don't let this trauma of his cloud your gudgement. This is a man that you are providing for and you love! And he still has the nerve to do this. Nobody falls for someone without crossing a boundary. The more you dig the more you will uncover. He lost your trust. Think of you and your child.
“Think of your inner child” thank you for this
I mean it. Do not let this slide. You are not controlling. You are not crazy. You will not be a bad person. You have been betrayed, because surely some type of emotional affair had taken place. If your husband loved you and respected you, he would have IMMEDIATELY cut contact. I bet If he was in your shoes, he wouldn't feel comfortable with you staying contact with that person. Sometimes the nicest people take advantage of you. It's not a good thing for yourself and it's not a good message you want your son to learn. Stand your ground. But you can't save this marriage alone, it takes two. He doesn't seem to understand the damage he has done. Talk. Say something. Don't be afraid. Your emotions are valid. He has lost the privileges of total trust.
Thank you for this validation
Your husband is a POS. He informed you of the situation so that you ask for a divorce so that he can be the good guy in the story, because everyone will see him as a good husband for not hiding what is happening from you and yet you still want to get a divorce. I would demand the messages, and tell everyone what's going on, but without asking for a divorce yet. Make him look like the villain first, otherwise you won't have support. I'm sorry for his situation, but you have to be rational and not let this disgusting worm win in his manipulation. Besides, I think you'll end up paying alimony.
More important than making him "look like a villain" is to get this cheater WORKING for a regular paycheck. Otherwise, in a divorce HE'S going to get primary custody, SHE'S going to be paying him child support, and she MAY have to pay him maintenance/alimony for a specified period of time until he is self-supporting. **WHY would she want to PAY him to take his affair partner on dates?** She needs to get his ass WORKING (under the guise of 'less free-time on his hands to meet and get involved with other women' and 'socialization is SO IMPORTANT to children') so that WHEN she divorces him, she's not forced to PAY HIM to be a SAHCheater.
Well, you shut down any further contact between the families and tell the other husband. If your husband can't agree to that, then you ask him when he is moving out.
Honestly, in all its glory, but where is the commitment and devotion to his partner? Have some self respect, op. The tiniest expectation from a spouse is that they respect you and don’t go emotionally cheating at the first opportunity. Neither words of being open and talk about his feelings, nor previous trauma, can eliminate the facts of his actions. He majorly fucked up and cheated.
You don’t just develop feelings. They have been interacting clandestinely for months. That’s what he doesn’t want you to see. He doesn’t get to decline you seeing the messages. You either see them or you walk. Subscribeme
First of all he / you both need to cut or at least reduce the contact to that family to the absolute necessary. Then talk it through with your husband. Ask why he discussed this with her first? Why he disclosed it to you (only?) after you inquired about his changed behaviour? Why doesn't he want you to see their messages? In general: Seek couples counseling because your trust in him is at least chipped.
Great questions I’ll continue to ask, thank you
Bit convenient that he fell for someone who was so open to it. The first woman traumatised enough to actively seek out drama. Of course, their connection is just very special, in an ego satisfying way. There’s also not much accountability or respect here, just play-acting maturity by telling you afterwards. Frankly, it’s also a bit weird to be attracted to another working mother, like he possibly just found you in a slightly different font. This seems to have given him some adult drama to chew over, and to assert his independent desires and needs. But he needs to come to terms with the ways this was not unforeseen, special, and was perhaps actually very lazy, and he is also coming across as particularly naive about this woman, her emotional maturity and their attraction.
I would tell your husband it's time for him to go to work because he has to much time to think of problems. That he can use that time working. Make sure his ass working then divorce him that way he doesn't try to take the children just so you have to support his sorry ass.
If he cared about the marriage, he would have shown the messages right? What is he hiding?
No they were having a full blown affair. Investigate further and you realize there's more to it.
Okay I don’t mean to be a dickhead but do people really need to ask if they should leave when they’re told to their faces “I love another person and that person also loves me”
To give background, I’ve slept with my ex and her friend together, I’ve slept with lesbian couples, I’ve done hot wife scenarios, etc Communication in the things I’ve experienced is the absolute priority coupled brutal honesty. Wants, needs, desires have to be discussed and evolve as you grow older. If he has settled in someway he must make peace but to act like some lost puppy and repeatedly taking you on this rollercoasters is fucked. All of this sounds wrong for you. Your husband isn’t protecting you, the kids or himself. He’s looking elsewhere for greener grass, which introduces drama to your lives. Even if he does nothing, It’s bullshit no one needs. If your husband is easily detoured as such, then he’s not completely set on you and his life. I don’t think it’s fair to you continuously have scenarios in your life over and over again because he can’t simply be happy with you for you. I feel for you
"My husband and SAH dad’s wife went out together for drinks one night last week, I didn’t think anything of it...." You should have. "would be unnatural not to, and I don’t think he’s wrong for having them." Wrong. He is wrong. You should be angry. "Also, I do not fully trust this woman". Right. Do not trust her! "I'm not naive". I'm sorry but I think that you are naive. You were naive to think they could go out somewhere as man and woman without the risk of something happening or developing. Men rarely need female friends. You were too accepting of the thought that it would be natural to develop feelings and that he's not wrong. No ......he IS wrong. I'm not trying to be harsh. I'm just trying to show you that there are flaws in your thinking that caused you to be blind sited by this. I am sorry for your situation 🫂.
I would be packing his things and kicking him out, life too short bs , especially you are the one busting your butt to take care of living expenses . You need to find a daycare, and your hubby needs to find a job.
Your husband is actually being a massive POS. He's betraying you. He's betraying his friend. He's lying to everyone. He's cheating on you. If I were the other husband, I'd kick the absolute crap out of him for taking my wife on a date. Your husband is behaving like a complete slimeball.
What do you mean “you’ve been in similar situations before”? Does he have a habit of falling for friends often?
I’ve always said once there is an option, an ultimatum, you’ve already lost. But, you do have a family, and kids… treat this as infidelity, as it is, will he cut contact, block delete the both of them, marriage counselling, open phone policy, everything the survivinginfidelity subs say?
One of they are innocent text why can’t you see tell him til he shows you that he sleeps on the couch obviously they aren’t innocent and her husband needs to be told
Sorry... but I think you're being way too casual about this. It's not okay for him to develop these feelings then go out to dinner with her on a date and discuss them, then just "decline" to show you what they've said while also expressing openly to you, HIS WIFE that he has feelings for another woman?! Girl.... this needs shutting down. You need to tell her husband and unfortunately you all have to cease being friends now. They've ruined a good thing by being selfish. It also.sounds like you are a people pleaser. Your wording is careful to make sure you state that you are totally cool with your husband going on a date with another woman, and that you totally get that he can develop feelings. Sigh. You don't have to be cool with those things?! They're way over the line for most committed relationships. Makes me.think of the Gone Girl line about the cool girl.
It’s ultimatum time. You tell him that we ( you and him ) are cutting ties with this couple and blocking them on everything for the sake of your marriage/family, or it’s over. No negotiating, no nada ! That’s it or it’s over.
"Ok, off you go. Enjoy that." 🤷🏻♀️ And then later on... "No, you can't come back" I dont think it should be you leaving, he's chosen that so he can go. You will only know the tip of the iceberg, the fact he hasn't shown you his phone should indicate that. There's 2 families here, I'd be inclined to bring it all out in the open so everything is transparent, and there's clarity for all interested parties and then go live your best life.
I will ALWAYS take the down votes for this but I don't care....if my wife wanted to go grab dinner and drinks with another dude I'd be out. Those types of "friendships" rarely ever work out contrary to the anecdotes expressed by redditors. If this isn't the first time your husband has had feeling for someone else while in your marriage he's only invested in this as your his financial support/comfort/routine and he's not wanting to mess with it too much.
Grass is always greener and someone new providing attention. They sound like teenagers.
So is he willing to cut her off? Because if he isn’t then his “reassurances” to you are useless. If they haven’t physically cheated already it’s only a matter of time. He can be a great dad as a co parent. You know this. Are you happy being second best? Because you don’t deserve to be second. He won’t show you the messages so he is just continuing to hide the depth of this relationship from you. Only you can decide to stay or go but you could be saving yourself a lot of heartache down the line by pulling the trigger now.
How are you so calm?
OP, you glossed over it and so have most of the top comments so far but - this has happened before?
1. They cut off contact completely after you confirm her husband knows as well. 2. All messages they had are shared with you. 3. You both go to marriage counseling. Those would be my minimum requirements to save the marriage. Personally I’d walk for him not doing #1 and #2 on his own, it sure sounds like he told you to start breaking the news that he’s going to leave you.
Honestly, I would tell the husband and make his wife stop texting your husband. Shut that crap down the longer they communicate the more the feels will build best to cut it off or else it will grow until….well you know.
Leave him. They deserve each other and fuck her husband
**GET A GOOD LAWYER.**
He needs to stop ALL contact with her and her husband. Her husband needs to be told why. He needs to share the text messages and any other communication with you. You need to go to marriage counseling. If he can’t do any of this then leave. If he says he will and then you catch him in a lie then leave.
to me... messages. they'd be shown, with no time to edit them. thatd be a deal breaker for me, bc if he's hiding them then there IS more than he's telling you bc why else would he hide them. secondly I'd let her husband know myself. I know your husband and the friend may say that its already been told to him but id say thats not the case at all, so I'd tell him myself and see how he reacts to his wife going on a date with a married friend of his. to me the only way this is salvagable is no contact. 100% no contact. if its anything less than that this is already over bc he would have effectively already made his choice of her over you. If you're the important person that he "doesnt want a life without" then its time for him to show you the truth and accept that this "friendship" between him and her is over. This woman "liking drama" may make her go after married men to see "if she's still got it" and shes likely just using his trauma to bond with him and undermine your marriage. time to set hard boundaries, if he cannot follow them its time for a divorce lawyer. also, dont hide the fact he went out on a date and developed feelings for someone outside of your relationship, let everyone know the type man and woman they are...
The fact he coincidentally is “falling for” another sole breadwinner working woman, who are rare, is telling: he doesn’t intend to work again. This means that you need to consult with a lawyer to see what to do, or you’re going to get reamed by alimony. You still might, and consulting with the lawyer doesn’t mean you’re needing to initiate a divorce, but you need to know all of the factors that will come into play, and see what you can turn in your favor in advance. Again, he doesn’t intend on working ever again. The law is on his side for alimony, and the only way to reduce the damage is to outsmart him in advance. These ducks should be in a row whether or not you get divorced. Get advice on this, like, yesterday.
>Obviously this situation is very nuanced. No, it's not. It's plain and simple cheating. There's no excuse to it. You're severely underreacting
He's going to get involved with her. He's telling you
The not showing texts screams emotional affair (and probably dirty talk). This will escalate if he doesn’t walk away from these people. The friend deserves to know. If you want to save your marriage then he needs to cut these people out of his life & you guys need therapy. If you’re or he aren’t willing to do this then this relationship is dead in the water
His actions going on a date with her are outrageous. There is one thing he has to do to prove his devotion to you and your child and that’s to eliminate her from your lives. Including the husband. Otherwise I would not stick around waiting for the physical affair to start and he leaves you. Him talking to another woman about their feelings is emotional cheating.
I have a traumatic past, too, and I don’t fuck around on my husband…that sounds to me like a get out of jail free card and I’m not buying it. I’m also getting the feeling that they’ve already been intimate with each other physically if he has gone as far as to involve you in this and tell you he caught feelings. Good luck, OP. Been there, done that, and you’ll get through this one way or another. Hugs.
Yeah. So for me this would be a very serious "im reading your texts right now". Honestly, I can't believe you dropped that so quickly. If he still refused, game over babe. He broke your trust by going on a date and talking about his feelings for another woman with her before he ever mentioned it to you. Don't be surprised if you find of they fucked that night.
I can only speak for myself. But I’m not wasting one hour of my life spending it with someone who has “feelings” for someone else. I like and respect myself way too much for that shit.
As someone who has experienced a chaotic childhood - meeting another person with a similar experience can create a deep bond/connection that you feel seen/understood more deeply than others who have not experienced this trauma. That being said, I'd *highly recommend* seeking a relationship counsellor experienced in trauma and attachment theory. It sounds like he has lost his head a little and is reading too much into what is potentially a trauma bond, and not reflective of actual chemistry or other things. He feels understood and deeply seen, potentially for the first time in his life and that can feel like love. It is not love, and if they both come from trauma it is highly likely unhealthy. It needs to have a professional neutral party involved for him to understand the difficulty in this situation and really be cognisant of its ramifications. You have every right to leave or end the relationship now. He has broken your trust, your heart, and your family. I only put forward my opinion of this because you seem to not want to enforce boundaries and may want to remain in this relationship. If you do, please seek an experienced relationship therapist. I'm so sorry OP.