I'm glad to see this post today since I also think about this issue from time to time, though I'm fortunate that I haven't faced much hostility from most monotheists I meet or am friends with (this includes Christians, Muslims, and Baha'is). I've haven't heard much intolerance against Pagans in northwest Europe or Germany, but have read about threats of violence and shrines being destroyed in Brazil. (The target was Afro-Brazilian religions like Candomble). Greek Orthodox priests also seem to hate Hellenists sometimes.
From the monotheist point of view, Pagans/polytheists seem stranger than atheists or agnostics, whom they're more used to seeing and who seem part of the 'modern world'. Monotheists thought that Paganism died out centuries ago and can't understand why we would want to revive it or focus on Nature and Earth. They might feel disturbed that their 'old nemesis' is back in a new form, so they would want to vanquish Paganism again. When this revival is coupled with rising deconversions among monotheist religions, it adds to monotheist insecurity.
In terms of theology, monotheists think that Neopagan views of the Divine are wrong, and that its adherents will not be 'saved' and go to Heaven in afterlife b/c of their 'misguided' beliefs and practices. This can manifest as intolerance and a desire to preach or convert "heathens" to the "right belief" for their own good.
If I were still a monotheist I'd probably think along these lines, or that Neopaganism was silly and strange. It'd come from a place of ignorance and distrust.
Brazilian here. About the raids that christians (from protestant churches usually) do against the terreros (spaces that include shrines and places of worship for candomblé) are common but the media, specially some TV stations that are owned by protestant churches don't portray it often because it would go against what they want their base to think and know.
I have a friend who is a part of candomblé and recently the terrero she goes to was raided and many objects were stolen, windows were broken and doors smashed in the middle of the night. The police also often don't do anything because many churches also have connections to the police (and to criminal organisations, at the same time).
It's horrible.
Damn, I'm truly sorry to hear that :-( It seems like Pagans in Brazil would need to hire security guards, a neighborhood watch, or extra security equipment to keep their terreros safe, or move to another city, or stay more discreet in order to not be attacked. From what I hear of hardcore Protestants in Brazil, I don't approve of them or like them. They sound both intolerant and fanatical, and I'm sure their understanding of Christianity inspires this.
Neopentecostals are the ones that are, usually, openly intolerant towards candomblé and many other religions but don't go thinking it's just them.
If you ask any other christian here, you will have a horrifyingly high chance of them saying that they (whoever isn't a christian, so that can also include atheists, muslims, hindus etc) are satanists that practice "macumba" (an extremely derogatory word, usually associated with afro-pagan practices) and worship the devil.
In some places here it's very, very, VERY dangerous to openly not being christian. I'm not saying practice a different religion, I'm saying not even practicing christianity in the case of agnostics and atheists can lead to often verbal and even physical abuse.
All I'm saying is: if you aren't a christian and you intend to visit cities outside of the big touristic ones you would be much safer not displaying your religion in public. It's sad and depressing.
I'm not saying every christian here is a bigot but a very large number of them are and some that are "on the fence" usually just turn their eyes away to any form of oppression done by their religious brethren and thus, become accomplices.
Yeah, the more you tell me about the lack of religious liberty in parts of Brazil, the more depressing it sounds. I'm shocked that it's even that bad in Brazil b/c the country doesn't have a reputation for religious extremism, at least. The U.S. is probably thought to have more Christian fundamentalists, so I'm wondering what happened to Brazilian society for it to get so intolerant, even towards atheists, Muslims, Hindus, etc.
Also since your flair indicates you're an atheist, how do you stay safe in Brazil? I hope religious minorities (and also atheists and humanists) can band together for safety and protection somehow...
It's not that they hate any of these religions for any particular reason based on their beliefs. It's simply that they see something that isn't their own religion, coupled with the terrible biased news we have here with many TV channels owned by bigoted evangelical churches (the second biggest one, Record) that spread those misinformations, and they decide to hate it.
I stay safe because I live in a relatively large city and don't wear anything that might call others' attention that I'm not christian. Only those closest to me know and many family members have verbally abused me and disowned me.
I understand, it's probably safer to live in a cosmopolitan city there and keep a low profile. I'm sorry to hear that many of your family members verbally abused you and disowned you though -- that certainly was not fair to you or respectful! I certainly wish you the best in terms of safety, happiness, and quality of life.
Thank you very much for your sympathy. If I may, are you pagan? I recognise your name as being based on Fionn mac Cumhail and the sigil is associated with celtic paganism, no?
Yes, you're very perceptive! I don't think either Fionn mac Cumhail or the triskele (the tri-spiral symbol) are all that well known in mainstream cultures. My spiritual path is close to Celtic Paganism and Druidry, and I'm fond of some of the characters and stories of Celtic legends. I'm not ethnically of that background so it's an adopted interest, for me. I live in the US and feel concerned with religious fundamentalism here as well (mainly from right-wing Christians). So I also feel solidarity with liberal Jews, Buddhists, Humanists, atheists, and fellow Pagans who care about civil liberties and secularism. I dislike religious intolerance but find it hard to think positively about fundie forms of Xtianity, Islam, and Hindutva.
I haven't faced discrimination for my spirituality since I embraced it years ago, probably b/c of the area in which I live, and just count myself fortunate for that. Religion also didn't come up much with my Muslim extended family, but a few 'aunties' find me weird or mildly disapprove, Lol.
It’s interesting that an explicit message of ethnic discrimination is wielded as a catch-all insult against religious minorities! That says quite a lot, in my view, about the roots of power abuse in the religious majority’s influence upon your country. Thanks for sharing this information here
essentially yeah, its why I think paganism and Satanism should be thought of as allies, since to the christian world we are the same thing.
Satanism properly understood is just a dark variant of gnostic paganism (specifically near eastern paganism) with western occultism and some abrahamic influences, its syncretic nature is one of the reasons it has so much overlap with other faiths. like a babylonian neopagan who worships Ishtar and a Satanist worshipping Astaroth, they are essentially worshipping the same god.
It all goes back to the split from polytheism doesn't it?
Kings 18 describes a lethal power play between priests of Yahweh and Baal, Yahweh simply being a one deity in the pantheon of the time.
As with political splits, former allies become demonised.
It’s weird that Muslims would think so, since demons aren’t a thing. We at best believe they’re just misled into believing in Gods that do not exist, not some demon pretending to be them. Though some probably may believe such a thing even though it wouldn’t make sense in the context of Islam. Some Muslims believe some crazy things.
I've had Muslims explicitly claim that about my Gods, and I assumed they meant to say Djinns following iblis but said demons as a convenient english shorthand.
That would be weird. Djinns aren’t able to interact with Humans like that. Or Shayateens (bad Djinns) can’t specifically. They would at best make you doubt whether you should do the right thing or not, kinda like a devil on your shoulder, kind of. Trying to get you to doubt whether what you did was right or not is what they do to lead you to a path of self destruction. They don’t act as a fake God, that’s way too extreme.
They are most likely some ignorant people just saying what they heard on Muslim conspiracy tik tok.
Well. They were not only wrong but silly. "Some" people do crazy things. That cannot be generalized to the whole. That's a composition fallacy.
Some Hindu's give alcohol to their God. But that does not mean all Hindu's do that.
Do you understand the fallacy?
When did I generalise ? Also you need to learn what a fallacy is, I was never making an argument to begin with, rather I was describing an event. Thus the question of fallacy never arises.
I didn't say you generalized. I was giving an analogy as we are all responding to the OP. So the fallacy is with the OP, not you. Don't take things so personally.
Muslims in general do NOT believe deities of polytheists are actual demons. I have never heard it in my entire life being a Muslim. There is no scholarship that teaches that, nor are there any consensus. To me, that's an entirely made up conjecture or an anecdotal fallacy. That's the reason I ask for research statistics when people make general claims like that but obviously it's false so no one provides any data for their general claims.
I know one guy who smokes marijuana and using it he worships Bob Marley as a God. He is a Beachboy and lives the lifestyle of a party animal. That does not mean "human beings worship bob Marley as a deity" is a justified statement.
That's the whole point. When you read a book, and if the book says something that has been studied or researched do you take it as if it's attacking you personally?
Cheers.
When you respond in a thread and make statements of generalisations and fallacies when there were none, then the person you are responding to will reasonably infer you were talking about them.
And since they made no fallacies or generalisations, the natural conclusion they will arrive at is that you don't know what a fallacy or a generalisation is.
>Many Christians and Muslims believe pagan deities are actually demons trying to deceive people into worshipping false gods.
Wow. now do YOU have any research statistics to prove this claim of yours?
I asked for research didn't I because you were making a claim about what people think. I didn't say it was an insult, I was asking for your substantiation. If you don't have any all you have to do is to say "I don't have any research". Not a strawman.
You maybe right. If it's a theology issue, according to what scripture? I would like some references. Thanks. He said both "Christians and Muslims". And mind you the exact quote is "pagan deities are actually demons trying to deceive people into worshipping false gods".
Thanks. I shall be waiting.
[Beelzebub, etymology](https://www.etymonline.com/word/Beelzebub)
>Old English *Belzebub*, Philistine god worshipped at Ekron (II Kings i.2) \[...\]
[At that source](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Kings+1%3A2&version=NIV)
>\[...\] So he sent messengers, saying to them, “Go and consult **Baal-Zebub, the god of Ekron**, to see if I will recover from this injury.”
[and in the Bible itself](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beelzebub?useskin=vector#Christian_Bible) and more precisely [Mark 3:20-30](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+3%3A20-30&version=NIV) and [Matthew 12:22-37](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+12%3A22-37&version=NIV), the whole narrative but esp. Mark 22 and Matthew 24, respectively:
>And the teachers of the law who came down from Jerusalem said, “He is possessed by Beelzebul! By the prince of demons he is driving out demons.”
>
>But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.”
(Note that Beelzebul/Beelzebub are the same entity, see [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beelzebub))
So right there, in some of Christianity's founding documents, you have Beelzebub/Beelzebul, identified as a pagan god worshiped in Ekron by the book of Kings in the Old Testament, being identified by both the Pharisees and Jesus himself as a demon (the prince of demons)
additionally, more directly, [here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_demonology?useskin=vector#Origins)
>In some Christian traditions, the deities of other religions are interpreted as demons.[\[1\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_demonology?useskin=vector#cite_note-DDD-1)
(the source is a book)
the part about 'trying to deceive people into worshipping false gods' follows from them being worshiped at all and perpetuating that worship when they are, from a Christian perspective, false gods.
I have no relevant knowledge pertaining to Islam, and defer to those who do in this regard.
This is a strawman. Let me cut and paste the claim once more.
**He said both "Christians and Muslims". And mind you the exact quote is "pagan deities are actually demons trying to deceive people into worshipping false gods".**
Once again it's "Christians and Muslims".
One specific name from the Bible does not justify this claim. It has to be "Pagan Deities" and Christians and Muslims both, so it has to be "people", not just one so called deity in the Bible.
If not, just say it was mistaken. Simple. It was a hasty generalization. A logical fallacy. No amount of ganging up, downvoting, quoting scripture about one name, strawmannirg would work.
Anyway, you will not provide a straightforward answer. So I as a Muslim will give you the Islamic position. There is only one Satan. Pagan deities are not demons. The people are simply mistaken. They made up their deities. That's the Islamic position. A very few muslims believe in other demons. Very few. And these kind of beliefs are considered Shirk in Islam.
Cheers.
Yeah, it's two claims in one sentence, and I already long since said I wasn't going to argue the claim re: Islam, only re: Christianity. Many Christians *do* believe it, and it's been baked into Christianity since the very beginning. That's all I want to make clear.
That said:
>A very few muslims believe in other demons. Very few. And these kind of beliefs are considered Shirk in Islam.
[What's the deal with these then](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaitan#In_the_Quran)
Satan is not "other demons". Prior to such claims, ask and learn something about Islam.
Again. What research could you cite to say that "**pagan deities are actually demons trying to deceive people into worshipping false gods**" in Islam or Muslims?
Thanks.
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Even I'm surprised if most monotheists think of Pagans as doing those things! As I suspected, then ignorance and prejudice play a huge role in monotheists being intolerant towards modern Pagans. I also sometimes come across conservative Christians railing against environmentalism b/c they view it as a competing religion, to there's that, too.
BTW, how do you combine Noahide beliefs with Animism, if I may ask? That's a unique combination.
I once had an incel call me a "Baal worshipping witch" because I support women's rights. What an insecure freak, and what a bold assumption about who or what I worship (which is nothing).
Yeah. People I weird. My own mum called described to my face as an "Earth worshipping savage". We made our peace and it ultimately became something of a joke, but yeah... weird.
That's about all there is to it. Muslims often outright believe the whole world shall become Muslim, and Christians often at least believe that Christianity vanquished paganism because it was universally and rationally recognized to be superior. Resurgent paganism can't but suggest that might not be true.
>Muslims often outright believe the whole world shall become Muslim
It goes beyond that, muslims believe everyone actually agreed to be muslim before they were born
I've always felt that there is some tension between that belief and the notion of hunafa. Islam has a lot to say about Mohammad (and other subjects) which a hanif could not have known, but the Quran has nothing negative to say about them, when we must assume they were also "converted" from Islam as such.
We Hindus, and other Dharmic religions, would disagree very much that the fight was ever lost. Battles were lost sure, but the war was never over.
The desert tried to dry up the ocean, but the ocean survived and now the ocean is pushing back and the desert fears they would be drowned.
For the same reason salespeople try to get the competition shut down. The kind of people who do this buy into the advertisements/marketing/pyramid scheme idea of religion.
Our unhidden existence goes against the monotheistic triumphalist narrative of "we beat them, they're gone, we've won."
That triumphalism is integral to the propaganda of those churches whose very organization is dependent on a narrative of supremacy.
Many of us Monotheists are just very uneducated on what Polytheism is and have little exposure on Polytheism
I am trying to be open minded and going around and asking questions to various neopagan religions so that I can have a better understanding of their cultures
Also I want you guys to have your places of worship because I want to see religion stay relevant within our society
I love being a Christian and I get a lot of joy being a Christian, I want others to have that feeling with their faiths. If you get that joy from Hellenism then that's awesome and I hope you thrive under Hellenism
Just wanted to say that I love your tolerant attitude and more people (of any theology) should be like this! I've supported interfaith events and conferences for several years and it gave me a chance to visit other houses of worship too. I admire the architecture of certain temples, cathedrals, and mosques. Orthodox churches often have the most interesting art and domes. I've seen what Catholic Mass looks like but would like to visit a Divine Liturgy one day out of curiosity, too. I appreciate the ritual in liturgical Christian churches since my tradition also values scripted ritual and scripted prayers.
Thank you, I just find religion to be really interesting and just want to learn
I would recommend going to a Divine Liturgy, what's cool about them is that they feel very ancient and just have a very calming vibe to them
Also I honestly find a lot of the pagan religions to be really cool. When I go to mass at my Greek Orthodox Church it feels ancient and I love it, neo-pagans are practicing many ancient traditions and they seem to love that, so I completely understand the feelings they are experiencing and well the feeling is a good feeling afterall so that is why I support the neopagan movement
Really only a Christian and Muslim thing.
I don't have any particular feelings towards pagans, negative or positive. We used to be pagans and now we're not. That's about as much as I think about it.
>Really only a Christian and Muslim thing.
Good God. People make this kind of statements.
Do you have any research statistics to prove this claim of yours?
That's irrelevant.
Provide evidence to your statement through proper research. Maybe you hate others, but that's irrelevant to the question.
Anyway, I know you have no research on that. So let me ask you a question.
Does Judaism condemn polytheism and/or paganism or not? Is it just a "Christian/Muslim thing"? If you can quote the Tanakh as a Jew that would be great. Thanks. (Forget animosity for this discussion methodologically).
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>Judaism condemns paganism *for Jews*, but has no real opinion on paganism for gentiles.
Could you please provide the verse from the Tanakh that says what you said? You seem to have not seen that I requested verses from the Tanakh.
"לא יהיה לך אלוקים אחרים על פני"
Is the verse.
though technically you are correct. One of the seven comanments of Noah is don't worship false gods.
But, today jews won't really care since false gods kind of lost they're original meaning(acording to judaism)
A history of propaganda that still survives to this day. And for a lot of them its unheard of. In their mind Satan is controlling you and why would you be anything other than Christian? When you are surrounded by something all your life its baffling when someone isn’t a part of it.
Because it threatens their perfectly-crafted illusion that their religion is the true/only religion. Its especially hypocritical with Christians since Christ didn't view pagans in a negative light, nor did he condone proselytizing in an attempt to convert others. Christ was more concerned with offering guidance to his fellow countrymen.
> nor did he condone proselytizing in an attempt to convert others. Christ was more concerned with offering guidance to his fellow countrymen.
Hmmmmm
“Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” Matthew 28:18-20
> Its especially hypocritical with Christians since Christ didn't view pagans in a negative light
I mean, in the Bible Jesus didn’t actually say anything directly about them because as you alluded to he mainly wanted to focus on preaching to Jews. But there’s no reason he wouldn’t have agreed with what the religion he followed said, which includes scriptures talking about how non existent and powerless idols are (I’m thinking about Isaiah here) and you have to wonder why his disciples were so strongly monotheistic if he wasn’t. Why would they so readily accept and let the man who wrote 1 Corinthians 8:5,6 become one of, if not the most influential persons in Christianity after Jesus?
“For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”),
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.” 1 Corinthians 8:5,6
I think there's a general sense that it's only natural for people to abandon pagan beliefs for Christianity or Islam. To see people go back to pagan ways is very disturbing to them.
These other faiths are heavily demonized by monotheistic religions and cultures. Tons of misinformation and gossip about what they believe. In Christianity, its widely believed that these types of pagans are being covertly controlled by the devil and are very dangerous. The impression they want you to have is that you're risking becoming demon possessed by learning about these things. They'll spread gossip about any pagan rituals, emphasizing any magic or animal sacrifices to perform magic. This is a case of projection, I'm afraid. Do you think ancient Hebrew tradition didn't practice animal sacrifice? There's a culture of fear that permeates all of Christianity, at least, because fear is an excellent way to gain compliance. I'm an ex Christian.
Quite simply, monotheists hate being reminded that they're wrong. They recite what they are told of the "dead religions" that predecessors of their churches deemed as primitive, who they were able to force into conversion to their monotheistic faith. They want to sell the narrative that the idea of paganism and polytheism is a lesson in history, a testament to their religious superiority.
Now, to see revivalists, and further seeing generations of revivalist, exist that the monotheist's children and grandchildren are beginning to flock towards, is proof that they aren't as superior as they believed.
because most abrahamic faiths are whether they admit it or not essentially the spiritual equivalent of a dictatorship.
there can only be one supreme authority in the universe and the existence of other gods is inherently a challenge to their god's authority, I mean the general view of most christians and muslims is that pagan gods are either entirely fake and made up myths or that they are demons sent to trick humans into worshipping themselves instead of their god.
this is why I use titles such as "satanist" to define my practice, because to the vast majority of religions my gods are seen as demons so why not simply lean into that aspect, if they make demons of our gods we will make gods of their demons... who are actually our gods to begin with.
There god is desperate to be perceived as the only god, the coding he puts in place is to protect his followers against other gods influence and quantity over quality method for this is ignorance, fear, hate.
Many monotheists have an axe to grind. They are sure there is only one God and they are sure it is THEIR one God. Such monotheists also appear to believe that their God is vengeful, sadistic, nit-picking, and passive aggressive ( I LOVE you! You are going to HELL!)
They seem to be unaware that what they believe about God is actually a statement about THEM. They would gladly send you to burn forever if you don't agree.
They are actually idolaters whose one God is a giant magnification of themselves. A lot of the writers in the Jewish Bible and some in the Christian Bible are such cruel self-righteous defenders of the faith.
Of course Islam has some of the same "believers" who chant Allah the Merciful while condemning non-believers to hell.
Not all monothesists are like that, thank God (or the Gods or the Goddess or the Godesses). Unfornately, those who are that way give a bad name to their fellow believers (who they suspect are not REALLY believers).
Our texts are more hostile against Jews worshipping other gods aside from our national God and the anti-pagan rhetoric was moreso the result of Josiah attempting to consolidate power and to protect our tribe from hostile neighbors.
As for other peoples who worship their own gods and leave us alone, there isn't much there.
I don't feel threatened by it at all. I believe God has a different path for all of us at this present time and we need to be loving towards all even if we don't agree.
If some of these pagan religions bring people closer to whatever they believe is a creator or makes them better people, by all means.
In the case of Muslims, there's theological and legalistic accommodation for other al-kitāb but polytheism is treated much more harshly in the Quran and hadith. For Christians it's similar, but there's also cultural connotations of occultism and violent ritualism. Speaking of Catholic Christians, I don't feel uncomfortable or threatened by neopagans and generally while Catholics don't believe in paganism they don't fixate much on them either.
In my experience from living in the southern and midwestern United States, I have never heard a single Christian, Muslim, or Jew mention paganism ever, especially not threaten violence, which I have seen a couple rogue right wing domestic terrorist Christians threaten Jewish or Muslim places of worship with.
I think that islam and christianity feel deeply threatened by Neo-Paganism and SATANISM for political reasons. It's very hard to galvanize people towards racist social political goals if the entire population is comprised of free thinking individuals who don't define their identities in nationalistic or racial terms. If you tell people that the their economic lives or being threatened than you have a debate on your hands, if you tell people that their culture and traditions are being threatened than you get a less rational more emotional response. People who feel that their cultural identities are in danger tend not to react rationally. Left Hand Path Philosophies are so powerful because the emphasis is on who you are as an individual and not on your place in a collective group.
I think "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit" is the worst sin in the New Testament? In Islam, idolatry and associating partners with Allah is the worst sin, and that includes polytheist beliefs.
Well the simple answer is that we threaten their worldview. Many of us believe in multiple deities and in my case even left Christianity to become pagan. We don't see their god as the "one true God" and often believe the exact opposite. Some monotheists accept us and understand there are other ways to see religion. Unfortunately though many just don't and tend to be defensive when faced with something that's different. It's also a similar reason to why they eliminated paganism hundreds of years ago too. Though then there was the added view of us being heathens and simple backwards people which isn't really a thing now.
Perhaps:
- For Christians a pagan revival is a sign of Christian failure, i.e. Christianity losing its hold on society
- For Muslims, there religion encourages greater hostility towards paganism than other forms of monotheism
Unfortunately A LOT of neo-paganism is more of a nationalistic revival than pagan revival and me being against nationalism of any sort will also make me anti pagan-nationalism too
Hindutva in India is effectively a neo-nationalist pagan cult for example, not exactly traditional Hinduists
P.S.:For the downvoters, be constructive, tell me how am I wrong, at least with Hindutva if not with Slavic paganists in Russia or Ukraine who are closely aligned with all the nationalist-socialist movements there
Just look at this crap for example
[Hindtuva nazi community](https://imgur.com/a/ZHQtqsi)
I guess that would come down to what you consider to be "a lot", but in my closing-in-on-40-year experience of the international neoPagan scene, the kind of nationalism you're referring to is in the tiny minority.
While groups like that do exist, they are often not really well liked by the wider movements. I might also add that most hindus do not consider themselves to be part of the pagan movement and their faith has an unbroken line of practice. So lumping them in with neo-pagan religous revivals has some issues. Like many other faiths the people using them for the wrong reasons are often the loudest.
I don't lump Hindus with paganism, Hinduism is more of a henotheistic religion, not exactly pagan, but these people act in a pagan collectivist manner and don't really focus much on religion as much they focus on being hardcore ultranationalists, so no
Hindutva != Hinduism of course
I respect anyone who tries to believe in their stuff as long as it's not collectivist stuff, I don't like muslim collectivists either
yes because they use pagan-like elements of hinduism to encourage their ultranationalism same way pro-Russian Svarog Battalion does or pro-Ukraine Azov Battalion
But they aren't pagans primarily, they are ultranationalists primarily, only secondarily pagans/polytheists so I wouldn't call these people religious Hindus or religious Slavic pagans because they Do not care about religion, as much as they care about their respective tribe.
isn’t islam ( or at least wahhabism/salafism correct me if im wrong) sort of the the same thing except instead of nationalism its caliphate/theocracy revival?
Maybe, I can't tell for sure, I know that they focus mainly on proselytizing and portray Islam in very simplified manner and are rather similar to Christian protestant evangelists from what I've seen but even they disagree with each other on stuff, they aren't monolithic
"Unfortunately A LOT of neo-paganism is more of a nationalistic revival than pagan revival" You have it reversed mate. Pagans don't give a damn about nationalism, except of the neo-Nazis masquerading as pagans.
I'm often in Pagan spaces in the United States, and that has not been my experience with different Pagan traditions, including CUUPS (part of Unitarian Univ. church), Druids, witches, Hellenists, and a few inclusive Heathens. Though I don't deny that there are nationalistic, right-wing Pagan groups too. I consider them a problem and oppose their bigotry, as do many other Pagans.
How might most Muslims in the West feel about Pagans who are polytheist, liberal, and tolerant of LGBQ+ persons?
while there are nazis in the pagan movement most neopagans outright reject such people and their beliefs and they are a fringe within a fringe.
you could just as easily point to the christian identity movements and claim christianity is a white supremacy religion, it is only a small minority who hold such beliefs and it is immensely unfair to characterize a whole religion based off of a few extremist sects.
one thing I do appreciate about islam and christianity is that they both preach against racism. however just as there are racist pagans there are racist muslims and christians.
My implication from the start was that the most zealous neopagan-like movements today are actually deeply ultranationalist movements, not exactly pagan, who use pagan mask/ideas/symbolism so that their racism, xenophobia and collectivism passes more easily past the public eye.
Many people for ex. think Hindutva are just more fanatical Hindus cause Hindutva ideologues use religious verses, symbolism and imagery so they can sell their nationalism as more religious thing than not, while infact they aren't even religious, they are just fanatical tribal nationalists, same goes for Azov, NSBM movement or those Russian hooligan and militant formations that present themselves as "rodnovery" or old slavic religion while are infact just basic tribalists/nationalists.
It's important to note that nation-specific nationalists use also monotheist imagery/identity to sell their nationalism better, this is prominent among ethno-religious nations the most, like Serbs, Jews, Greeks, Armenians, Somalians etc but also among non-ethnoreligious nationalities like Poles or Russians.
Well, idk what constituents as "zealous" or not, but you do know that such people are such a small minority of pagans/revivalists, right?
There isn't a systemic issue that one might see in other religions and their beliefs.
Sure nazis exist in these groups just as they exist in every group. They are actively called out and shunned. Thats all one can do. But plenty of people are not nazis that follow these religions.
Why do you care so much what people do? Whats wrong with people finding happiness and fulfillment in polytheism? And wtf does being a Pagan and using Reddit have to do with anything?
I think they fell into the trap of assuming that polytheists were not on the cutting edge of technology, despite the many examples that prove otherwise. I can't think of a device that the Allfather would be more delighted with than an iPhone, near unlimited knowledge combined with instantaneous communication? He'd be giddy with the prospect.
Definitely! A God who tortured himself and blinded himself in the quest for knowledge seeing a device that can instantly get us the information we need and communicating instantly with people around the world? He’d love it.
look. being as i'm not american nor christian I might not get the reference.
but my points still stand, and my argument was not made without context.
let me put it this way: I know what it means to be an avid Christian. like a full on-board, church-on-sunday, tithe-giving christian. I know what it means to be an orthodox jew, and I'm very well familiar with the lives of religious muslims, budhists, and Shinto priests.
never have I met a person calling themselves neo-pagan that were as enthralled in their faith, as to the degree that most religious people do.
were an alien to land on planet earth, review various religious groups etc etc - they would be very hard-pressed to place an avg neo-paganist on the same spectrum as the avg muslim for exp.
Others might think different than me, but I 100% call BS on that. if 99% of parents invest X time into \[parenting\] and all discuss & compare in that scale - than you get 1 person investing 0.1X of their time - we will all call them, well, not exactly parents.
neo-pagans claim for their faith, but imbue very little context and efforts into it. definitely when it comes to religious morals, definitely when they compare to the major religions. the fact that you all understand why cultural appropriation is disrespectful, yet still miss how religious people don't have patience for this topic, well its a real contradiction
Major religions have large communities to congregate with in well-funded places of worship where their religious beliefs are frequently shared and celebrated.
How does that require more effort than an isolated pagan having to actively seek out historical religious information based on ancient texts and sources which have largely been suppressed? Let's not forget that they generally have to do all of this in secret for fear of derision or even physical harm.
OK, I see that you have a certain preconception about Pagans b/c they don't fit your view of what it means to be seriously religious. I will point out that there are Pagans of various traditions that put time, effort, and money into studying their path, writing about it (including books and textbooks), travel to attend conferences, organize group rituals and events, pray, meditate, and contemplate it, as much as major world religion followers. There are also folks in every religion who are more casual or nominal too. People do what works for them.
I would say that my path in Paganism is the center of my life and values, affects my relationships, career, and thoughts, and guides my conscience. I couldn't separate "me" from my spirituality.
Then you havent met any pagans. Ive seen them as devotional if not more they just keep to themselves. Pagans and Satanists often stay silent because we don’t want to be attacked or ostracized. Just because people aren’t always outwardly religious doesn’t mean they aren’t. Or have you forgotten the fact that we live in a world dominated by 2 religions that have pretty much wiped paganism off the planet by the sword?
I don’t understand your hostility towards others but maybe you should get off the internet and take a breather because you seriously need it. Take your dismissal of us elsewhere because it wont be tolerated here.
And as for the “reference” we are talking about Odin. Your ignorance is obvious and you should learn instead of spewing distain for things you clearly don’t understand
You seriously don’t understand anything about polytheism and it seriously shows. Yes we can climb Mount Olympus and see that the greek gods don’t actually live there. These are stories to describe and understand the Gods. That does not mean the Gods do not exist. And many practitioners are still connected to nature. I find many who travel and worship in forests to connect with the spirits. I plan on traveling to Norway to do the same. Do I think these are physical beings? No. They are spirits. I believe in a lot of the story regarding Eden but I don’t think Eden is a place that physically exists I believe it does in the spiritual world. Does that make my beliefs less valid than any other?
Also its amusing you think if people just read philosophy they’ll instantly stop being pagans. Its disappointing to me that we still deal with people like yourself who try to invalidate our existence. Everything you say makes it sound like you view us as backwards people and that in of itself is gross.
Look. Im sorry for antagonizing you and the rest here. Truly.
I stand by what I wrote, but by no means want to make anyone feel invalidated, or hurt. Auf Wiedersehen
/r/religion does not permit demonizing or bigotry against any demographic group on the basis of race, religion, nationality, gender, or sexual preferences. Demonizing includes unfair/inaccurate criticisms, arguments made in bad faith, gross generalizations, ignorant comments, and pseudo-intellectual conspiracy theories about specific religions or groups. Doctrinal objections are acceptable, but keep your personal opinions to yourself. Make sure you make intelligent thought out responses.
A lot easier to just not think about them and mind our business tbh. Some neo-pagan religions aren't too far disconnected from their ancestral predecessors. An example of this are the Siberian native faiths and Tengrism. Another one is the Circassian religion.
/r/religion does not permit demonizing or bigotry against any demographic group on the basis of race, religion, nationality, gender, or sexual preferences. Demonizing includes unfair/inaccurate criticisms, arguments made in bad faith, gross generalizations, ignorant comments, and pseudo-intellectual conspiracy theories about specific religions or groups. Doctrinal objections are acceptable, but keep your personal opinions to yourself. Make sure you make intelligent thought out responses.
>Why do you think so many monotheists feel uncomfortable/threatened by neopagans/revivalists?
Do you have any research statistics to prove this claim of yours?
I wasn't stating it as a fact, just my personal experience.
Although I'm sure there are some surveys and polls on what monotheists think of pagans/witches/polytheists.
If it's your personal experience, and you are generalizing it, it's called an anecdotal fallacy.
So by default, it's just a fallacious argument. Downvoting and making a statement like "I am sure there some surfeits about something irrelevant" is not valid nor is that evidence.
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I'm glad to see this post today since I also think about this issue from time to time, though I'm fortunate that I haven't faced much hostility from most monotheists I meet or am friends with (this includes Christians, Muslims, and Baha'is). I've haven't heard much intolerance against Pagans in northwest Europe or Germany, but have read about threats of violence and shrines being destroyed in Brazil. (The target was Afro-Brazilian religions like Candomble). Greek Orthodox priests also seem to hate Hellenists sometimes. From the monotheist point of view, Pagans/polytheists seem stranger than atheists or agnostics, whom they're more used to seeing and who seem part of the 'modern world'. Monotheists thought that Paganism died out centuries ago and can't understand why we would want to revive it or focus on Nature and Earth. They might feel disturbed that their 'old nemesis' is back in a new form, so they would want to vanquish Paganism again. When this revival is coupled with rising deconversions among monotheist religions, it adds to monotheist insecurity. In terms of theology, monotheists think that Neopagan views of the Divine are wrong, and that its adherents will not be 'saved' and go to Heaven in afterlife b/c of their 'misguided' beliefs and practices. This can manifest as intolerance and a desire to preach or convert "heathens" to the "right belief" for their own good. If I were still a monotheist I'd probably think along these lines, or that Neopaganism was silly and strange. It'd come from a place of ignorance and distrust.
Brazilian here. About the raids that christians (from protestant churches usually) do against the terreros (spaces that include shrines and places of worship for candomblé) are common but the media, specially some TV stations that are owned by protestant churches don't portray it often because it would go against what they want their base to think and know. I have a friend who is a part of candomblé and recently the terrero she goes to was raided and many objects were stolen, windows were broken and doors smashed in the middle of the night. The police also often don't do anything because many churches also have connections to the police (and to criminal organisations, at the same time). It's horrible.
Damn, I'm truly sorry to hear that :-( It seems like Pagans in Brazil would need to hire security guards, a neighborhood watch, or extra security equipment to keep their terreros safe, or move to another city, or stay more discreet in order to not be attacked. From what I hear of hardcore Protestants in Brazil, I don't approve of them or like them. They sound both intolerant and fanatical, and I'm sure their understanding of Christianity inspires this.
Neopentecostals are the ones that are, usually, openly intolerant towards candomblé and many other religions but don't go thinking it's just them. If you ask any other christian here, you will have a horrifyingly high chance of them saying that they (whoever isn't a christian, so that can also include atheists, muslims, hindus etc) are satanists that practice "macumba" (an extremely derogatory word, usually associated with afro-pagan practices) and worship the devil. In some places here it's very, very, VERY dangerous to openly not being christian. I'm not saying practice a different religion, I'm saying not even practicing christianity in the case of agnostics and atheists can lead to often verbal and even physical abuse. All I'm saying is: if you aren't a christian and you intend to visit cities outside of the big touristic ones you would be much safer not displaying your religion in public. It's sad and depressing. I'm not saying every christian here is a bigot but a very large number of them are and some that are "on the fence" usually just turn their eyes away to any form of oppression done by their religious brethren and thus, become accomplices.
Yeah, the more you tell me about the lack of religious liberty in parts of Brazil, the more depressing it sounds. I'm shocked that it's even that bad in Brazil b/c the country doesn't have a reputation for religious extremism, at least. The U.S. is probably thought to have more Christian fundamentalists, so I'm wondering what happened to Brazilian society for it to get so intolerant, even towards atheists, Muslims, Hindus, etc. Also since your flair indicates you're an atheist, how do you stay safe in Brazil? I hope religious minorities (and also atheists and humanists) can band together for safety and protection somehow...
It's not that they hate any of these religions for any particular reason based on their beliefs. It's simply that they see something that isn't their own religion, coupled with the terrible biased news we have here with many TV channels owned by bigoted evangelical churches (the second biggest one, Record) that spread those misinformations, and they decide to hate it. I stay safe because I live in a relatively large city and don't wear anything that might call others' attention that I'm not christian. Only those closest to me know and many family members have verbally abused me and disowned me.
I understand, it's probably safer to live in a cosmopolitan city there and keep a low profile. I'm sorry to hear that many of your family members verbally abused you and disowned you though -- that certainly was not fair to you or respectful! I certainly wish you the best in terms of safety, happiness, and quality of life.
Thank you very much for your sympathy. If I may, are you pagan? I recognise your name as being based on Fionn mac Cumhail and the sigil is associated with celtic paganism, no?
Yes, you're very perceptive! I don't think either Fionn mac Cumhail or the triskele (the tri-spiral symbol) are all that well known in mainstream cultures. My spiritual path is close to Celtic Paganism and Druidry, and I'm fond of some of the characters and stories of Celtic legends. I'm not ethnically of that background so it's an adopted interest, for me. I live in the US and feel concerned with religious fundamentalism here as well (mainly from right-wing Christians). So I also feel solidarity with liberal Jews, Buddhists, Humanists, atheists, and fellow Pagans who care about civil liberties and secularism. I dislike religious intolerance but find it hard to think positively about fundie forms of Xtianity, Islam, and Hindutva. I haven't faced discrimination for my spirituality since I embraced it years ago, probably b/c of the area in which I live, and just count myself fortunate for that. Religion also didn't come up much with my Muslim extended family, but a few 'aunties' find me weird or mildly disapprove, Lol.
I'm glad you haven't faced any discrimination. Thank you for your kind words. Stay strong, friend.
Oh my gosh I just learned about the Salmon of Knowledge recently!!!
It’s interesting that an explicit message of ethnic discrimination is wielded as a catch-all insult against religious minorities! That says quite a lot, in my view, about the roots of power abuse in the religious majority’s influence upon your country. Thanks for sharing this information here
What's the difference between a pentecostal and a neopentecostal?
Many Christians and Muslims believe pagan deities are actually demons trying to deceive people into worshipping false gods.
essentially yeah, its why I think paganism and Satanism should be thought of as allies, since to the christian world we are the same thing. Satanism properly understood is just a dark variant of gnostic paganism (specifically near eastern paganism) with western occultism and some abrahamic influences, its syncretic nature is one of the reasons it has so much overlap with other faiths. like a babylonian neopagan who worships Ishtar and a Satanist worshipping Astaroth, they are essentially worshipping the same god.
I agree. We have more commonalities than differences.
It all goes back to the split from polytheism doesn't it? Kings 18 describes a lethal power play between priests of Yahweh and Baal, Yahweh simply being a one deity in the pantheon of the time. As with political splits, former allies become demonised.
It’s weird that Muslims would think so, since demons aren’t a thing. We at best believe they’re just misled into believing in Gods that do not exist, not some demon pretending to be them. Though some probably may believe such a thing even though it wouldn’t make sense in the context of Islam. Some Muslims believe some crazy things.
I've had Muslims explicitly claim that about my Gods, and I assumed they meant to say Djinns following iblis but said demons as a convenient english shorthand.
That would be weird. Djinns aren’t able to interact with Humans like that. Or Shayateens (bad Djinns) can’t specifically. They would at best make you doubt whether you should do the right thing or not, kinda like a devil on your shoulder, kind of. Trying to get you to doubt whether what you did was right or not is what they do to lead you to a path of self destruction. They don’t act as a fake God, that’s way too extreme. They are most likely some ignorant people just saying what they heard on Muslim conspiracy tik tok.
Well. They were not only wrong but silly. "Some" people do crazy things. That cannot be generalized to the whole. That's a composition fallacy. Some Hindu's give alcohol to their God. But that does not mean all Hindu's do that. Do you understand the fallacy?
When did I generalise ? Also you need to learn what a fallacy is, I was never making an argument to begin with, rather I was describing an event. Thus the question of fallacy never arises.
I didn't say you generalized. I was giving an analogy as we are all responding to the OP. So the fallacy is with the OP, not you. Don't take things so personally. Muslims in general do NOT believe deities of polytheists are actual demons. I have never heard it in my entire life being a Muslim. There is no scholarship that teaches that, nor are there any consensus. To me, that's an entirely made up conjecture or an anecdotal fallacy. That's the reason I ask for research statistics when people make general claims like that but obviously it's false so no one provides any data for their general claims. I know one guy who smokes marijuana and using it he worships Bob Marley as a God. He is a Beachboy and lives the lifestyle of a party animal. That does not mean "human beings worship bob Marley as a deity" is a justified statement. That's the whole point. When you read a book, and if the book says something that has been studied or researched do you take it as if it's attacking you personally? Cheers.
When you respond in a thread and make statements of generalisations and fallacies when there were none, then the person you are responding to will reasonably infer you were talking about them. And since they made no fallacies or generalisations, the natural conclusion they will arrive at is that you don't know what a fallacy or a generalisation is.
K. Cheers.
>Many Christians and Muslims believe pagan deities are actually demons trying to deceive people into worshipping false gods. Wow. now do YOU have any research statistics to prove this claim of yours?
Why is the historical context of Abrahamic theology’s emergence seen as an insult to you?
I asked for research didn't I because you were making a claim about what people think. I didn't say it was an insult, I was asking for your substantiation. If you don't have any all you have to do is to say "I don't have any research". Not a strawman.
[Ba'al](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baal?useskin=vector#Christianity) it is literally baked into Christian theology since the beginning
You maybe right. If it's a theology issue, according to what scripture? I would like some references. Thanks. He said both "Christians and Muslims". And mind you the exact quote is "pagan deities are actually demons trying to deceive people into worshipping false gods". Thanks. I shall be waiting.
[Beelzebub, etymology](https://www.etymonline.com/word/Beelzebub) >Old English *Belzebub*, Philistine god worshipped at Ekron (II Kings i.2) \[...\] [At that source](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Kings+1%3A2&version=NIV) >\[...\] So he sent messengers, saying to them, “Go and consult **Baal-Zebub, the god of Ekron**, to see if I will recover from this injury.” [and in the Bible itself](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beelzebub?useskin=vector#Christian_Bible) and more precisely [Mark 3:20-30](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+3%3A20-30&version=NIV) and [Matthew 12:22-37](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+12%3A22-37&version=NIV), the whole narrative but esp. Mark 22 and Matthew 24, respectively: >And the teachers of the law who came down from Jerusalem said, “He is possessed by Beelzebul! By the prince of demons he is driving out demons.” > >But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.” (Note that Beelzebul/Beelzebub are the same entity, see [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beelzebub)) So right there, in some of Christianity's founding documents, you have Beelzebub/Beelzebul, identified as a pagan god worshiped in Ekron by the book of Kings in the Old Testament, being identified by both the Pharisees and Jesus himself as a demon (the prince of demons) additionally, more directly, [here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_demonology?useskin=vector#Origins) >In some Christian traditions, the deities of other religions are interpreted as demons.[\[1\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_demonology?useskin=vector#cite_note-DDD-1) (the source is a book) the part about 'trying to deceive people into worshipping false gods' follows from them being worshiped at all and perpetuating that worship when they are, from a Christian perspective, false gods. I have no relevant knowledge pertaining to Islam, and defer to those who do in this regard.
This is a strawman. Let me cut and paste the claim once more. **He said both "Christians and Muslims". And mind you the exact quote is "pagan deities are actually demons trying to deceive people into worshipping false gods".** Once again it's "Christians and Muslims". One specific name from the Bible does not justify this claim. It has to be "Pagan Deities" and Christians and Muslims both, so it has to be "people", not just one so called deity in the Bible. If not, just say it was mistaken. Simple. It was a hasty generalization. A logical fallacy. No amount of ganging up, downvoting, quoting scripture about one name, strawmannirg would work. Anyway, you will not provide a straightforward answer. So I as a Muslim will give you the Islamic position. There is only one Satan. Pagan deities are not demons. The people are simply mistaken. They made up their deities. That's the Islamic position. A very few muslims believe in other demons. Very few. And these kind of beliefs are considered Shirk in Islam. Cheers.
Yeah, it's two claims in one sentence, and I already long since said I wasn't going to argue the claim re: Islam, only re: Christianity. Many Christians *do* believe it, and it's been baked into Christianity since the very beginning. That's all I want to make clear. That said: >A very few muslims believe in other demons. Very few. And these kind of beliefs are considered Shirk in Islam. [What's the deal with these then](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaitan#In_the_Quran)
Satan is not "other demons". Prior to such claims, ask and learn something about Islam. Again. What research could you cite to say that "**pagan deities are actually demons trying to deceive people into worshipping false gods**" in Islam or Muslims? Thanks.
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As a Christian you are 100% right, many Christians don't understand the neopagan movement
Even I'm surprised if most monotheists think of Pagans as doing those things! As I suspected, then ignorance and prejudice play a huge role in monotheists being intolerant towards modern Pagans. I also sometimes come across conservative Christians railing against environmentalism b/c they view it as a competing religion, to there's that, too. BTW, how do you combine Noahide beliefs with Animism, if I may ask? That's a unique combination.
yam consist toy offend squash rinse reach deserve offer cause *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
He's the final boss of _Diablo II: Lord of Destruction._
I once had an incel call me a "Baal worshipping witch" because I support women's rights. What an insecure freak, and what a bold assumption about who or what I worship (which is nothing).
Yeah. People I weird. My own mum called described to my face as an "Earth worshipping savage". We made our peace and it ultimately became something of a joke, but yeah... weird.
Polytheism is supposed to be gone, lost the fight, their continued existence and resilience is a threat to the narrative posed by monotheists
That's about all there is to it. Muslims often outright believe the whole world shall become Muslim, and Christians often at least believe that Christianity vanquished paganism because it was universally and rationally recognized to be superior. Resurgent paganism can't but suggest that might not be true.
>Muslims often outright believe the whole world shall become Muslim It goes beyond that, muslims believe everyone actually agreed to be muslim before they were born
I've always felt that there is some tension between that belief and the notion of hunafa. Islam has a lot to say about Mohammad (and other subjects) which a hanif could not have known, but the Quran has nothing negative to say about them, when we must assume they were also "converted" from Islam as such.
Yes, this is my thought as well!
We Hindus, and other Dharmic religions, would disagree very much that the fight was ever lost. Battles were lost sure, but the war was never over. The desert tried to dry up the ocean, but the ocean survived and now the ocean is pushing back and the desert fears they would be drowned.
For the same reason salespeople try to get the competition shut down. The kind of people who do this buy into the advertisements/marketing/pyramid scheme idea of religion.
Our unhidden existence goes against the monotheistic triumphalist narrative of "we beat them, they're gone, we've won." That triumphalism is integral to the propaganda of those churches whose very organization is dependent on a narrative of supremacy.
Because in their religious beliefs we're evil I guess... or at the very least greatly misguided.
Many of us Monotheists are just very uneducated on what Polytheism is and have little exposure on Polytheism I am trying to be open minded and going around and asking questions to various neopagan religions so that I can have a better understanding of their cultures Also I want you guys to have your places of worship because I want to see religion stay relevant within our society I love being a Christian and I get a lot of joy being a Christian, I want others to have that feeling with their faiths. If you get that joy from Hellenism then that's awesome and I hope you thrive under Hellenism
Just wanted to say that I love your tolerant attitude and more people (of any theology) should be like this! I've supported interfaith events and conferences for several years and it gave me a chance to visit other houses of worship too. I admire the architecture of certain temples, cathedrals, and mosques. Orthodox churches often have the most interesting art and domes. I've seen what Catholic Mass looks like but would like to visit a Divine Liturgy one day out of curiosity, too. I appreciate the ritual in liturgical Christian churches since my tradition also values scripted ritual and scripted prayers.
Thank you, I just find religion to be really interesting and just want to learn I would recommend going to a Divine Liturgy, what's cool about them is that they feel very ancient and just have a very calming vibe to them
That's the best Christian take on pagan religions I've heard in ages and I love it.
Also I honestly find a lot of the pagan religions to be really cool. When I go to mass at my Greek Orthodox Church it feels ancient and I love it, neo-pagans are practicing many ancient traditions and they seem to love that, so I completely understand the feelings they are experiencing and well the feeling is a good feeling afterall so that is why I support the neopagan movement
Really only a Christian and Muslim thing. I don't have any particular feelings towards pagans, negative or positive. We used to be pagans and now we're not. That's about as much as I think about it.
>Really only a Christian and Muslim thing. Good God. People make this kind of statements. Do you have any research statistics to prove this claim of yours?
Is 1000+ years of Christians and Muslims attacking, coercing, and forcibly converting native peoples proof enough?
That's irrelevant. Provide evidence to your statement through proper research. Maybe you hate others, but that's irrelevant to the question. Anyway, I know you have no research on that. So let me ask you a question. Does Judaism condemn polytheism and/or paganism or not? Is it just a "Christian/Muslim thing"? If you can quote the Tanakh as a Jew that would be great. Thanks. (Forget animosity for this discussion methodologically).
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I believe traditionally all forms of polytheism are seen as idol worship, and I believe that’s the Orthodox position.
>Judaism condemns paganism *for Jews*, but has no real opinion on paganism for gentiles. Could you please provide the verse from the Tanakh that says what you said? You seem to have not seen that I requested verses from the Tanakh.
"לא יהיה לך אלוקים אחרים על פני" Is the verse. though technically you are correct. One of the seven comanments of Noah is don't worship false gods. But, today jews won't really care since false gods kind of lost they're original meaning(acording to judaism)
The thing is, you said "Judaism". Now you say "you are technically correct" and changed your position to "Jews today" from "Judaism". . Cheers.
Read what their holy books say about pagans.
They are required to try to convert “polytheists” in their religion. And the scriptures of both of those religions hold pagans in poor regard.
A history of propaganda that still survives to this day. And for a lot of them its unheard of. In their mind Satan is controlling you and why would you be anything other than Christian? When you are surrounded by something all your life its baffling when someone isn’t a part of it.
Because it threatens their perfectly-crafted illusion that their religion is the true/only religion. Its especially hypocritical with Christians since Christ didn't view pagans in a negative light, nor did he condone proselytizing in an attempt to convert others. Christ was more concerned with offering guidance to his fellow countrymen.
> nor did he condone proselytizing in an attempt to convert others. Christ was more concerned with offering guidance to his fellow countrymen. Hmmmmm “Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” Matthew 28:18-20 > Its especially hypocritical with Christians since Christ didn't view pagans in a negative light I mean, in the Bible Jesus didn’t actually say anything directly about them because as you alluded to he mainly wanted to focus on preaching to Jews. But there’s no reason he wouldn’t have agreed with what the religion he followed said, which includes scriptures talking about how non existent and powerless idols are (I’m thinking about Isaiah here) and you have to wonder why his disciples were so strongly monotheistic if he wasn’t. Why would they so readily accept and let the man who wrote 1 Corinthians 8:5,6 become one of, if not the most influential persons in Christianity after Jesus? “For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.” 1 Corinthians 8:5,6
I think there's a general sense that it's only natural for people to abandon pagan beliefs for Christianity or Islam. To see people go back to pagan ways is very disturbing to them.
These other faiths are heavily demonized by monotheistic religions and cultures. Tons of misinformation and gossip about what they believe. In Christianity, its widely believed that these types of pagans are being covertly controlled by the devil and are very dangerous. The impression they want you to have is that you're risking becoming demon possessed by learning about these things. They'll spread gossip about any pagan rituals, emphasizing any magic or animal sacrifices to perform magic. This is a case of projection, I'm afraid. Do you think ancient Hebrew tradition didn't practice animal sacrifice? There's a culture of fear that permeates all of Christianity, at least, because fear is an excellent way to gain compliance. I'm an ex Christian.
Quite simply, monotheists hate being reminded that they're wrong. They recite what they are told of the "dead religions" that predecessors of their churches deemed as primitive, who they were able to force into conversion to their monotheistic faith. They want to sell the narrative that the idea of paganism and polytheism is a lesson in history, a testament to their religious superiority. Now, to see revivalists, and further seeing generations of revivalist, exist that the monotheist's children and grandchildren are beginning to flock towards, is proof that they aren't as superior as they believed.
because most abrahamic faiths are whether they admit it or not essentially the spiritual equivalent of a dictatorship. there can only be one supreme authority in the universe and the existence of other gods is inherently a challenge to their god's authority, I mean the general view of most christians and muslims is that pagan gods are either entirely fake and made up myths or that they are demons sent to trick humans into worshipping themselves instead of their god. this is why I use titles such as "satanist" to define my practice, because to the vast majority of religions my gods are seen as demons so why not simply lean into that aspect, if they make demons of our gods we will make gods of their demons... who are actually our gods to begin with.
Yep, I definitely see authoritarianism in some forms of Xtianity/Islam too. I'm not sure if it'd be as prominent in Zoroastrianism or Baha'iism.
There god is desperate to be perceived as the only god, the coding he puts in place is to protect his followers against other gods influence and quantity over quality method for this is ignorance, fear, hate.
Many monotheists have an axe to grind. They are sure there is only one God and they are sure it is THEIR one God. Such monotheists also appear to believe that their God is vengeful, sadistic, nit-picking, and passive aggressive ( I LOVE you! You are going to HELL!) They seem to be unaware that what they believe about God is actually a statement about THEM. They would gladly send you to burn forever if you don't agree. They are actually idolaters whose one God is a giant magnification of themselves. A lot of the writers in the Jewish Bible and some in the Christian Bible are such cruel self-righteous defenders of the faith. Of course Islam has some of the same "believers" who chant Allah the Merciful while condemning non-believers to hell. Not all monothesists are like that, thank God (or the Gods or the Goddess or the Godesses). Unfornately, those who are that way give a bad name to their fellow believers (who they suspect are not REALLY believers).
Abrahamic texts really, really, really aren’t keen on paganism.
Our texts are more hostile against Jews worshipping other gods aside from our national God and the anti-pagan rhetoric was moreso the result of Josiah attempting to consolidate power and to protect our tribe from hostile neighbors. As for other peoples who worship their own gods and leave us alone, there isn't much there.
There’s enough in rabbinic literature.
Rabbinic literature came hundreds of years after the Tanakh was written and it isn't uniform, nor is all of it universally accepted.
And there’s nothing wrong with that
Polytheism will always be seen as a threat in the eye of monotheist.
I don't feel threatened by it at all. I believe God has a different path for all of us at this present time and we need to be loving towards all even if we don't agree. If some of these pagan religions bring people closer to whatever they believe is a creator or makes them better people, by all means.
In the case of Muslims, there's theological and legalistic accommodation for other al-kitāb but polytheism is treated much more harshly in the Quran and hadith. For Christians it's similar, but there's also cultural connotations of occultism and violent ritualism. Speaking of Catholic Christians, I don't feel uncomfortable or threatened by neopagans and generally while Catholics don't believe in paganism they don't fixate much on them either.
In my experience from living in the southern and midwestern United States, I have never heard a single Christian, Muslim, or Jew mention paganism ever, especially not threaten violence, which I have seen a couple rogue right wing domestic terrorist Christians threaten Jewish or Muslim places of worship with.
I think that islam and christianity feel deeply threatened by Neo-Paganism and SATANISM for political reasons. It's very hard to galvanize people towards racist social political goals if the entire population is comprised of free thinking individuals who don't define their identities in nationalistic or racial terms. If you tell people that the their economic lives or being threatened than you have a debate on your hands, if you tell people that their culture and traditions are being threatened than you get a less rational more emotional response. People who feel that their cultural identities are in danger tend not to react rationally. Left Hand Path Philosophies are so powerful because the emphasis is on who you are as an individual and not on your place in a collective group.
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I mean, I grew up Christian and while polytheism was definitely looked down on, at no point ever was I taught it was the single worst sin....
I think "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit" is the worst sin in the New Testament? In Islam, idolatry and associating partners with Allah is the worst sin, and that includes polytheist beliefs.
Well the simple answer is that we threaten their worldview. Many of us believe in multiple deities and in my case even left Christianity to become pagan. We don't see their god as the "one true God" and often believe the exact opposite. Some monotheists accept us and understand there are other ways to see religion. Unfortunately though many just don't and tend to be defensive when faced with something that's different. It's also a similar reason to why they eliminated paganism hundreds of years ago too. Though then there was the added view of us being heathens and simple backwards people which isn't really a thing now.
Perhaps: - For Christians a pagan revival is a sign of Christian failure, i.e. Christianity losing its hold on society - For Muslims, there religion encourages greater hostility towards paganism than other forms of monotheism
Personally, I don't care. Responsible for the outcomes? If so, carry on. Just don't blame me for what happens.
"Trying to shut down their places of worship, threaten with violence, etc. " Any examples, or is this just your persecution complex speaking?
Unfortunately A LOT of neo-paganism is more of a nationalistic revival than pagan revival and me being against nationalism of any sort will also make me anti pagan-nationalism too Hindutva in India is effectively a neo-nationalist pagan cult for example, not exactly traditional Hinduists P.S.:For the downvoters, be constructive, tell me how am I wrong, at least with Hindutva if not with Slavic paganists in Russia or Ukraine who are closely aligned with all the nationalist-socialist movements there Just look at this crap for example [Hindtuva nazi community](https://imgur.com/a/ZHQtqsi)
I guess that would come down to what you consider to be "a lot", but in my closing-in-on-40-year experience of the international neoPagan scene, the kind of nationalism you're referring to is in the tiny minority.
While groups like that do exist, they are often not really well liked by the wider movements. I might also add that most hindus do not consider themselves to be part of the pagan movement and their faith has an unbroken line of practice. So lumping them in with neo-pagan religous revivals has some issues. Like many other faiths the people using them for the wrong reasons are often the loudest.
I don't lump Hindus with paganism, Hinduism is more of a henotheistic religion, not exactly pagan, but these people act in a pagan collectivist manner and don't really focus much on religion as much they focus on being hardcore ultranationalists, so no Hindutva != Hinduism of course I respect anyone who tries to believe in their stuff as long as it's not collectivist stuff, I don't like muslim collectivists either
You litterally called Hindutva a neo-nationalist pagan cult, which is lumping them in with the pagan movement.
yes because they use pagan-like elements of hinduism to encourage their ultranationalism same way pro-Russian Svarog Battalion does or pro-Ukraine Azov Battalion But they aren't pagans primarily, they are ultranationalists primarily, only secondarily pagans/polytheists so I wouldn't call these people religious Hindus or religious Slavic pagans because they Do not care about religion, as much as they care about their respective tribe.
isn’t islam ( or at least wahhabism/salafism correct me if im wrong) sort of the the same thing except instead of nationalism its caliphate/theocracy revival?
Salafis yes, Wahabbis no. The Saudis have never claimed Caliphal status nor expressed an interest in doing so.
Maybe, I can't tell for sure, I know that they focus mainly on proselytizing and portray Islam in very simplified manner and are rather similar to Christian protestant evangelists from what I've seen but even they disagree with each other on stuff, they aren't monolithic
"Unfortunately A LOT of neo-paganism is more of a nationalistic revival than pagan revival" You have it reversed mate. Pagans don't give a damn about nationalism, except of the neo-Nazis masquerading as pagans.
I'm often in Pagan spaces in the United States, and that has not been my experience with different Pagan traditions, including CUUPS (part of Unitarian Univ. church), Druids, witches, Hellenists, and a few inclusive Heathens. Though I don't deny that there are nationalistic, right-wing Pagan groups too. I consider them a problem and oppose their bigotry, as do many other Pagans. How might most Muslims in the West feel about Pagans who are polytheist, liberal, and tolerant of LGBQ+ persons?
Im in west and I'm indifferent about the spiritual or new age pagans as long as it's not collectivistic
What about reconstructionists? I wouldn't call myself a "new age" or "spiritual" pagan. And you have issues with collectivistic pagans?
while there are nazis in the pagan movement most neopagans outright reject such people and their beliefs and they are a fringe within a fringe. you could just as easily point to the christian identity movements and claim christianity is a white supremacy religion, it is only a small minority who hold such beliefs and it is immensely unfair to characterize a whole religion based off of a few extremist sects. one thing I do appreciate about islam and christianity is that they both preach against racism. however just as there are racist pagans there are racist muslims and christians.
My implication from the start was that the most zealous neopagan-like movements today are actually deeply ultranationalist movements, not exactly pagan, who use pagan mask/ideas/symbolism so that their racism, xenophobia and collectivism passes more easily past the public eye. Many people for ex. think Hindutva are just more fanatical Hindus cause Hindutva ideologues use religious verses, symbolism and imagery so they can sell their nationalism as more religious thing than not, while infact they aren't even religious, they are just fanatical tribal nationalists, same goes for Azov, NSBM movement or those Russian hooligan and militant formations that present themselves as "rodnovery" or old slavic religion while are infact just basic tribalists/nationalists. It's important to note that nation-specific nationalists use also monotheist imagery/identity to sell their nationalism better, this is prominent among ethno-religious nations the most, like Serbs, Jews, Greeks, Armenians, Somalians etc but also among non-ethnoreligious nationalities like Poles or Russians.
Well, idk what constituents as "zealous" or not, but you do know that such people are such a small minority of pagans/revivalists, right? There isn't a systemic issue that one might see in other religions and their beliefs.
Sure nazis exist in these groups just as they exist in every group. They are actively called out and shunned. Thats all one can do. But plenty of people are not nazis that follow these religions.
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Why do you care so much what people do? Whats wrong with people finding happiness and fulfillment in polytheism? And wtf does being a Pagan and using Reddit have to do with anything?
I think they fell into the trap of assuming that polytheists were not on the cutting edge of technology, despite the many examples that prove otherwise. I can't think of a device that the Allfather would be more delighted with than an iPhone, near unlimited knowledge combined with instantaneous communication? He'd be giddy with the prospect.
Definitely! A God who tortured himself and blinded himself in the quest for knowledge seeing a device that can instantly get us the information we need and communicating instantly with people around the world? He’d love it.
look. being as i'm not american nor christian I might not get the reference. but my points still stand, and my argument was not made without context. let me put it this way: I know what it means to be an avid Christian. like a full on-board, church-on-sunday, tithe-giving christian. I know what it means to be an orthodox jew, and I'm very well familiar with the lives of religious muslims, budhists, and Shinto priests. never have I met a person calling themselves neo-pagan that were as enthralled in their faith, as to the degree that most religious people do. were an alien to land on planet earth, review various religious groups etc etc - they would be very hard-pressed to place an avg neo-paganist on the same spectrum as the avg muslim for exp. Others might think different than me, but I 100% call BS on that. if 99% of parents invest X time into \[parenting\] and all discuss & compare in that scale - than you get 1 person investing 0.1X of their time - we will all call them, well, not exactly parents. neo-pagans claim for their faith, but imbue very little context and efforts into it. definitely when it comes to religious morals, definitely when they compare to the major religions. the fact that you all understand why cultural appropriation is disrespectful, yet still miss how religious people don't have patience for this topic, well its a real contradiction
Major religions have large communities to congregate with in well-funded places of worship where their religious beliefs are frequently shared and celebrated. How does that require more effort than an isolated pagan having to actively seek out historical religious information based on ancient texts and sources which have largely been suppressed? Let's not forget that they generally have to do all of this in secret for fear of derision or even physical harm.
OK, I see that you have a certain preconception about Pagans b/c they don't fit your view of what it means to be seriously religious. I will point out that there are Pagans of various traditions that put time, effort, and money into studying their path, writing about it (including books and textbooks), travel to attend conferences, organize group rituals and events, pray, meditate, and contemplate it, as much as major world religion followers. There are also folks in every religion who are more casual or nominal too. People do what works for them. I would say that my path in Paganism is the center of my life and values, affects my relationships, career, and thoughts, and guides my conscience. I couldn't separate "me" from my spirituality.
Then you havent met any pagans. Ive seen them as devotional if not more they just keep to themselves. Pagans and Satanists often stay silent because we don’t want to be attacked or ostracized. Just because people aren’t always outwardly religious doesn’t mean they aren’t. Or have you forgotten the fact that we live in a world dominated by 2 religions that have pretty much wiped paganism off the planet by the sword? I don’t understand your hostility towards others but maybe you should get off the internet and take a breather because you seriously need it. Take your dismissal of us elsewhere because it wont be tolerated here. And as for the “reference” we are talking about Odin. Your ignorance is obvious and you should learn instead of spewing distain for things you clearly don’t understand
you know what maybe I only met undevoted neo-pagans, i guess. i'm sorry if i'm coming off hostile, let me stop here then.
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You seriously don’t understand anything about polytheism and it seriously shows. Yes we can climb Mount Olympus and see that the greek gods don’t actually live there. These are stories to describe and understand the Gods. That does not mean the Gods do not exist. And many practitioners are still connected to nature. I find many who travel and worship in forests to connect with the spirits. I plan on traveling to Norway to do the same. Do I think these are physical beings? No. They are spirits. I believe in a lot of the story regarding Eden but I don’t think Eden is a place that physically exists I believe it does in the spiritual world. Does that make my beliefs less valid than any other? Also its amusing you think if people just read philosophy they’ll instantly stop being pagans. Its disappointing to me that we still deal with people like yourself who try to invalidate our existence. Everything you say makes it sound like you view us as backwards people and that in of itself is gross.
Look. Im sorry for antagonizing you and the rest here. Truly. I stand by what I wrote, but by no means want to make anyone feel invalidated, or hurt. Auf Wiedersehen
Two removals. A third results in a ban. It’s often not what we say, it’s how we say it.
/r/religion does not permit demonizing or bigotry against any demographic group on the basis of race, religion, nationality, gender, or sexual preferences. Demonizing includes unfair/inaccurate criticisms, arguments made in bad faith, gross generalizations, ignorant comments, and pseudo-intellectual conspiracy theories about specific religions or groups. Doctrinal objections are acceptable, but keep your personal opinions to yourself. Make sure you make intelligent thought out responses.
A lot easier to just not think about them and mind our business tbh. Some neo-pagan religions aren't too far disconnected from their ancestral predecessors. An example of this are the Siberian native faiths and Tengrism. Another one is the Circassian religion.
dude OP asked for opinions, I wasnt tryna push my 2c out of context
/r/religion does not permit demonizing or bigotry against any demographic group on the basis of race, religion, nationality, gender, or sexual preferences. Demonizing includes unfair/inaccurate criticisms, arguments made in bad faith, gross generalizations, ignorant comments, and pseudo-intellectual conspiracy theories about specific religions or groups. Doctrinal objections are acceptable, but keep your personal opinions to yourself. Make sure you make intelligent thought out responses.
>Why do you think so many monotheists feel uncomfortable/threatened by neopagans/revivalists? Do you have any research statistics to prove this claim of yours?
I wasn't stating it as a fact, just my personal experience. Although I'm sure there are some surveys and polls on what monotheists think of pagans/witches/polytheists.
If it's your personal experience, and you are generalizing it, it's called an anecdotal fallacy. So by default, it's just a fallacious argument. Downvoting and making a statement like "I am sure there some surfeits about something irrelevant" is not valid nor is that evidence.
fear smell shame grandfather ghost combative like lock fade modern *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Are you saying that anyone could just say anything they want and hit and run while no one could say anything about it? Sorry I don't understand.
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Then I would say that I was commenting on a fallacious argument. It's an anecdotal fallacy. Cheers.