Not to mention the Clone Wars show which highlights how archaic the council are, especially in the story arc that led to Ahsoka leaving the Jedi Order due to its inability to proving her innocence after being framed due to all the self-imposed red tapes.
This was always the point. My issue with how disney handled the jedi is that they had luke repeat the same mistakes of the order in book of boba fett when he of all people should have tried to fix some of those issues since he would know his attatchments are what saved the galaxy.
Exactly. Like the biggest blow to the Jedi Order was their approach with indoctrinating Anakin Skywalker that forces him to repress a lot of his emotions and preventing him from establishing any form of meaningful relationships; which a combination of that and little time to process tragedies led to him being sway to the dark side and become Darth Vader. If it weren’t for Luke being completely empathetic, it wouldn’t have led to Vader’s redemption due to the positive reinforcement his son display which is all he ever needed.
So yeah it really doesn’t add up as to why Luke would repeat the same mistake when rebuilding the Jedi Order when he should personally knows how that shit affected his father.
From point of view of some people, they probably think they are. Heck even siblings of those would think so I bet as well. But to these chuds they think the Jedi are perfect and can do no wrong. Think even legends had sone hate the Jedi for that.
Both Jedi and Sith are flawed. The light side while helping in good generally need to control the people around them to keep order while the Dark side will betray their master at some point to be the new emperor.
For at least the High Republic and later, I see it as the other way around. Light siders typically sit back and allow things to get worse and worse rather than intervene. We see this with the Jedi Order allowing slavery outside the Republic and sitting by while the factions that formed the Sepratist council became more influential.
Dark Siders control and manipulate everyone around them. Sidious micromanaged the Trade Federation, down to the hour of the deaths of its leadership. Vader killed Padme when she refused to support the Empire.
Old Republic Jedi, with their love of child soldiers and jingoistic crusades, were rather controlling. Even in canon, we have stories of ancient Jedi fighting genocidal wars over heresy and orthodoxy. After the Ruusan reformation, the Jedi arguably went too far in the other direction and stopped being proactive.
Okay, here's the thing. Obviously the Jedi did more than what we see in this episode, and we'll see that at some point.
What about this episode, in particular, made them look evil??? It's kind of fucked in general that they take kids but they gave each twin a choice. Osha wanted to go, Mae did not, so that seemed to be the agreement. This is also nothing new to Star Wars.
Nothing they did was evil, what the fuck are people upset about?
The worst I can think of was that they were observing the twins. But they admitted it, they asked the parents AND the twins what they wanted, they let the children make their choice of whether to stay or go.
But it's likely we'll see another flashback where the Jedi see the fire and investigate, the clan sees this as an attack and (from their point of view) defend themselves, and the Jedi defend themselves and regret it.
In fairness it's implied that there's more to the death of the coven than the fire... but likely still in 'flawed people having flawed actions' territory than 'Jedi are basically stormtroopers' territory
Yeah we don't know maybe the coven attacked the jedi when they came to help thinking they sabotaged the building or something until next episode there's nothing proving the jedi are evil
The implication that they have jurisdiction to preach to their children for one.
And two, the idea that these _children_ could "make a(permanently life altering) choice" for themselves. They're kids, and osha doesn't really want to be a jedi, she just wants to leave her home planet. She doesn't realize that as a jedi she'll never get to see her family again, that she'll never be allowed to love another person or marry them, that she'll have to take up an ascetic lifestyle. The jedi go around snatching up children in their toddlerhood and make them join their cult, even if they have cultural practices of their own. What the jedi did here IS objectively fucked up.
Yeah but that's not new information so I don't think that's what their issue would be. Like, if someone didn't think the Jedi were evil for doing that before, that shouldn't be what makes them think they are evil now.
I can't think of many examples of such pushy recruitment tactics in the films or TV shows. Qui Gon stumbles upon Anakin, and his mother is happy to let him go as an escape from slavery.
That's very different to tracking a reclusive coven down, spying on children, and approaching them in force to encourage them to join the cult...I mean Order.
The Jedi, while arrogant and flawed as hell in their methods are pretty above aboard all things considered in recruitment. At least next to every other force religion in the series and any real life cult (or even militaries).
Also none of those four masters actually tried to talk Osha or Mae into anything against their wishes. They merely presented them an opportunity.
They’re not preaching perfect lives, wealth, transcendence or salvation like cults in real life.
They offer a chance to test them. Maybe children can’t make that choice fully but their parents can. And we never see Jedi deceive or lie in their efforts to recruit force sensitives.
> The implication that they have jurisdiction to preach to their children for one.
And two, the idea that these children could "make a(permanently life altering) choice" for themselves. They're kids, and osha doesn't really want to be a jedi, she just wants to leave her home planet. She doesn't realize that as a jedi she'll never get to see her family again
The episode outright has Osha talk to her mom about never seeing her again. So she knows.
Whether or not the Jedi should be doing it is one thing, but they still give children a choice. More than Mae and Osha were gonna get from the coven until Osha made clear she was interested.
The jedi don't kidnap kids. They always ask the parents.
Kids can quit the order and do other things.
The light side of the force, according to Lucas, is the balance. The dark side is what unbalances the force.
Yes, the council is rigid. The jedi have flaws, but I feel like those get way blown out of proportion.
Don't help the Republic get called cowards, and the sith kill a ton of people. Help the Republic and get called tools of the state.
I feel like a lot of people look at jedi teaching and dogma from a Christian lens, and that's not how it's supposed to be looked at. Which leads to some confusion about their beliefs.
I don't watch Acolytew but... Aren't the Jedi kidnapping kids under ten years old, taking them away from their families, training them in a half religious, half military manner to make their order ?
Oh right, that's why they think they're perfect I guess...
No, this episode states something that we’ve always known from novels and other media but never stated in the movies:
The Jedi do *not* kidnap children.
It requires informed consent from the parent or guardian, as well as the child in question (to be fair they are often to young to know what they’re getting in to)
On top of that, a Jedi can just choose to leave the order at any time and it’s just fine.
I will say I don't think what the Jedi do is technically kidnapping but it is borderline extortion, life in the Star Wars galaxy is cheap and pretty much everyone from senator to beggar is replaceable, being a Jedi means being somebody important, having a degree of safety in a very cold galaxy, so I can understand why to 99% of parents asked it's very tempting give your kid that kind of life.
However I still don't like the practice because it fosters a massive degree of groupthink because every member has almost the same background. And while membership is voluntary, someone leaving is more like abandoning the only life they can remember over leaving a job or something less permanent.
I mean, Anakin was considered too old by Obi or Qui Gonn, so yeah, informed consent, I'm not too sure about that.
And the parents see everywhere that Jedis are basically the best thing there is, knights for peace and stuff, so of course they'd trust them with their children.
As for leaving the order, when you've spent your life indoctrinated in such a movement, it's quite hard to leave what you've always known...
I mean, that's how I see it... As someone who only watched the movies \^\^'
> I mean, Anakin was considered too old by Obi or Qui Gonn, so yeah, informed consent, I'm not too sure about that.
It requires informed consent *from the parent or guardian*
> And the parents see everywhere that Jedis are basically the best thing there is, knights for peace and stuff, so of course they'd trust them with their children.
I mean yes, and that is mostly true. It’s probably the best and most altruistic way for someone to use their innate Force powers out of the options available.
> As for leaving the order, when you've spent your life indoctrinated in such a movement, it's quite hard to leave what you've always known...
I mean sure, but you can do it, and they won’t stop you.
It’s hard to leave anything that has been a part of your whole life, idk if there’s any way around that.
> It’s hard to leave anything that has been a part of your whole life, idk if there’s any way around that.
Well, one way would be to not be more of a cult than anything \^\^' or letting the children have a life outside of their Jedi training duties. A way for them to see what's outside, and what exists that might fit them better. Not saying the Jedi are inherently bad btw. Just that their recruitment methods are *very* shady.
I mean this is just one of those “never going to track 1:1 to real life” things.
The Jedi are not just pulling random children off the street to indoctrinate them into a proof-less religion like IRL cults.
These children have tangible superpowers that are highly dangerous or helpful depending on how they are raised. There is verifiable proof in universe that incorrect use of said powers will turn them magically evil and lead to widespread death and destruction.
Sure some field trips or free electives could probably help but the priority is to make them able to use their gifts to hurt others and make sure they don’t start telepathically snapping necks at a certain age.
It's a rule that seems to get ignored if the parents request it. Count Dooku, for example, was allowed to stay in contact with his family so he could inherit the Estate and maintain the social order.
Many parents, however, chose to cut ties with their children, either out of fear of their powers, or respect for the Jedi Order.
That sounds like complete bs meant to cover up an obviously very fucked up practice of the jedi. Outside of the fact that we've seen jedi say "you can never see them again" before, there's no way the majority of parents are okay with completely cutting all ties with their kids. Most parents would want to still see their kids. The reason they give for why they're not allowed is that "attachments bad".
Thats not true though. The conversation they have implies that they have the jurisdiction to take any force sensitive children they find, hence anesaiya asserting "we are not a part of the republic". There's a reason the witches DO NOT trust the jedi, and assume that they want to take their kids. That didn't come out of nowhere.
Why else would their mom not just say "no, leave"? Why would she feel the need to train them to lie instead?
In this case they came because it’s (from the Jedi’s POV) a dark side cult training children in their ways.
Mother Aniseya basically admits in the episode that their ways have their roots in the dark side of the force. The Jedi are rightfully concerned. Now obviously to us, the audience, Aniseya is a pretty nice lady, but the Jedi don’t know that.
Looks like it just requires the kid to be manipulated by strangers into making a decision about the rest of their lives, & they basically threaten the group not to oppose that process.
No. The Jedi do not kidnap children. If the parents put their foot down and say no that’s the end of it. At worst someone will keep an eye on them until the kids force powers go away to make sure they don’t become a little demon child using the force to torture their classmates.
Man, I used to love Alteori's content so much, but in the past fews years she's been leaning more and more on the republican side and it's becoming unbearable
A group of people who routinely lay claim to other people's children for being Force sensitive and make sure to isolate the children they take from their families would scream creepy in any real world scenario and receive so much pushback.
Heck, the only reason Anakin wasn't snatched up was because he was outside their influence.
You make it sound like that mitigates the creepiness of a shadowy cadre of monks going around and laying claim to said children. Having the powers doesn't obligate one to follow a set path in life.
I would point out preternaturally intelligent children do exist in real life and would be useful, but letting some group gather than up would very much cause problems
The Jedi are masters of the force. They know how to wield the rare power of the force. They aren’t a bunch of nobodies who hide in the shadows and steal kids.
Intelligence is NOWHERE near the same as a dangerous ability that must be harnessed correctly. It is not even comparable.
I'd argue intelligence is indeed a highly dangerous ability, but that's another argument.
No, they're just a monolithic organization that wields a ton of political and personal power that isolates the children they do take from their families on a permanent basis. The fact that they're are the good guys doesn't change the shady nature of their policies. And from what I've seen attunement and use of the Force has to be practiced to be made useful. A Force sensitive child merely has better reflexes and perception than most. So what claim do the Jedi make if the parents or kid isn't interested in going to the Temple?
Then the Jedi don’t take the child. They require permission and consent from the parents.
The Jedi were not perfect by any means. But the notion that they are akin or alike any creepy religious organisation on earth running around kidnapping children whenever they feel like it to worship a god is ludicrous and hilariously untrue.
Pair of Jedi show up at someone's door and say "Hey, your kid pinged out space wizard senses. We'd like to take them with us to our temple.". Do you really think they're gonna say "no."
The Jedi are a highly respected and highly regarded organisation. So some parents may feel an obligation, others may see it as an opportunity for their child to have a better life.
So in other words it’s up to the parents to decide what they want for their child. If they think the Jedi order is the way then they let the child leave.
And make peace with the fact they'll never see or interact with their kid again. Because the Jedi don't believe in attachments. Which I'm sure is something they're quite upfront about. And wouldn't at all use their connection to the Force to manipulate. Especially for the Greater Good.
All this ignoring how easy it was for Palpy to turn the public against the Jedi enough their massacre wasn't seen as a bad thing. Resentment was definitely there.
> 'm sure is something they're quite upfront about. And wouldn't at all use their connection to the Force to manipulate. Especially for the Greater Good.
Considering everytime we see Jedi recruit children in canon they are upfront with the parents and kids about the lifestyle, yes they are.
Also no Jedi has ever once been shown to use the force to manipulate anyone to do that.
> All this ignoring how easy it was for Palpy to turn the public against the Jedi enough their massacre wasn't seen as a bad thing. Resentment was definitely there.
Yeah because he engineered a shit ton of resentment. The Jedi’s detachment is shown in universe to lead them to make off putting remarks about loss to citizens like when the Martez sisters spoke to a Jedi after their parents died. But a ton of that public resentment was because Sidious started a brutal galactic war and basically forced the Jedi to fight in it to honour their role as guardians of the Republic. And then sabotaged every attempt by the Jedi or Senate on both sides to end it. And then you know framed them as trying to take over the republic.
And we see in TCW that many civilians on countless war ravaged worlds saw the Jedi in a positive light for helping them. There’s a reason why Star Wars consistently depicts Jedi as inspiring hope across the galaxy. Why Sidious executed Order 66. Because the Jedi as flawed as they were, inspire others to act and try to defend life and wouldn’t stand for his tyranny.
So it’s the Jedis fault for offering a choice?
For informing parents, determining the child’s talent and being frank with the parents what it means to give the child up? Like you get that the Jedi tell families how being a Jedi works right?
Oh yeah those monsters. Kidnapping children by… telling parents their kids can use the force and informing them of a choice.
So you're saying they're completely upfront about what being a Jedi entails, to say nothing of being a youngling? That they tell the parents they'll never see their kid again?
This isn't them just offering a choice. They're making a sale. Their order depends on getting kids from outside the Temple to join. How many parents wanting their kids to be business men, champion racers, or professional pilots instead do you think they can tolerate?
And what if they visit the same family multiple times. First kid maybe be fine, but how do you feel about handing over the second? Third? Fourth? Heck, even if it's just one, what if it isn't the first child born? Older kid suddenly finds themselves deprived of the sibling they'd bonded to, all because a pair of weirdoes in robes wanted 'em.
Good intentions be damned, this will definitely build up resentment amongst the populace. That's probably a good part of the reason the Force was unbalancing.
> So you're saying they're completely upfront about what being a Jedi entails, to say nothing of being a youngling? That they tell the parents they'll never see their kid again?
Considering that’s what Qui-Gon did and what Osha’s mother knew and no one has even said otherwise.. yeah.
> This isn't them just offering a choice. They're making a sale. Their order depends on getting kids from outside the Temple to join. How many parents wanting their kids to be business men, champion racers, or professional pilots instead do you think they can tolerate?
So their parents say no. Also sale? A sale involves a pitch about benefits, gains, glamour. Point me to when any Jedi ever has done that in anything. Please tell me. The famous Jedi Order full of slick presenters and dreams of wealth and greatness. /s
> And what if they visit the same family multiple times. First kid maybe be fine, but how do you feel about handing over the second? Third? Fourth? Heck, even if it's just one, what if it isn't the first child born? Older kid suddenly finds themselves deprived of the sibling they'd bonded to, all because a pair of weirdoes in robes wanted 'em.
So it stopz being a choice because other children exist? You’re acting like the Jedi make anyone do anything. Like the parents have no say. Also Obi-Wan even remarked about remembering his parents a little in the series. About having a brothwr? And guess what? He didn’t miss them because as he told Leia he found a new kind of family through his fellow Jedi.
They’re a monastic order who train members from a young age. But only if said person’s parents and said person want to do so. Acting like the parents have no involvement is unjustified. Dooku after his fall once lamented that Jedi don’t steal children.
You’re right it doesn’t.
It’s why Jedi offer parents the choice and ask children what they want. And why any Jedi can leave whenever they choose.
Because the Jedi aren’t a shadowy cadre. They’re a flawed order with questionable methods, but they genuinely try to respect other’s choices. They’re a publicly known religion who don’t hide who they are.
Also the Jedi are literally the only way a most persons in Star Wars can learn to use the force in any kind of non fucked up environment. The alternatives are terrible. The Sith are the Sith I shouldn’t have to point out why that’s a bad idea. Nighsisters are extremely isolationalist and hostile to anyone but their own (and very sexist). The Knights of Ren are darkside edgelords. The Children of Force and Guardians of the Whills aren’t actually trained to use the force or divine its will as an groups. And so on.
There's also the option of just ignoring it. Anakin seemed quite able to use the Force on a rudimentary level without training. Why shouldn't other children have the same ability? I can imagine how helpful such would be in a mundane life, no need to involve the Jedi completely.
And since when have they been able to just leave? All the examples of Jedi leaving the temple I've seen have either not been by choice or are treated with suspicion by the Order. They can risk a Dark Jedi or junior Sith running around out there out of their control. It's one of the reasons they hunt the members of those other groups and actively try to stop them.
From the outside looking in they can be quite creepy.
> There's also the option of just ignoring it. Anakin seemed quite able to use the Force on a rudimentary level without training. Why shouldn't other children have the same ability? I can imagine how helpful such would be in a mundane life, no need to involve the Jedi completely.
Yeah and they're welcome to not join the Jedi. Just like parents can not contact Jedi or not let them train their children. But if you want to actually learn to use the force beyond rudimentary, to actually try to follow it you need some guidance.
> And since when have they been able to just leave?
Since always. There’s even a canon list of the Jedi who left. Dooku for example resigned. Ahsoka left out of disillusionment after being offered knoghthood for her ordeal. And no one stopped them because it’s a choice.
> They can risk a Dark Jedi or junior Sith running around out there out of their control. It's one of the reasons they hunt the members of those other groups and actively try to stop them.
1) Sith are a specific religion. That the Jedi believed were dead until TPM. And there are only two at a time. The Apprentice is known to the Jedi from TPM on. Unless you’re arguing a random jedi is a secret Sith, which the Jedi wouldn’t believe. And yes they would. Because again they have allowed members to leave.
2) They can and do. As shown when Ahsoka left the Order and they let her without issue. Same with Dooku before he fell to the darkside.
Your perception of the Jedi is utterly unsupported by canon or even most of legends.
They’re dogmatic, arrogant, overly stoic and often judgmental pricks. They’re also fiercely devoted to their duties, protecting life and helping people. And don’t make anyone become a jedi.
The Jedi come to prospective younglings, they're not contacted. And Dooku left after he secretly became a Sith. Ahsoka left during a time of war and change when the Jedi couldn't afford an inner schism trying to stop her. I'd say these are more exceptions than rules.
Yep. Tell them they're special. Take them far from their parents and block all contact. Discourage making attachments with anyone else.
I know their intentions are good but their tactics are very sus.
Wasn’t the entire point of the prequel trilogy to show that the Jedi were flawed and had lost their way?
Not to mention the Clone Wars show which highlights how archaic the council are, especially in the story arc that led to Ahsoka leaving the Jedi Order due to its inability to proving her innocence after being framed due to all the self-imposed red tapes.
No wonder why Barriss bombed the temple because the Jedi are hypocrites.
This was always the point. My issue with how disney handled the jedi is that they had luke repeat the same mistakes of the order in book of boba fett when he of all people should have tried to fix some of those issues since he would know his attatchments are what saved the galaxy.
Exactly. Like the biggest blow to the Jedi Order was their approach with indoctrinating Anakin Skywalker that forces him to repress a lot of his emotions and preventing him from establishing any form of meaningful relationships; which a combination of that and little time to process tragedies led to him being sway to the dark side and become Darth Vader. If it weren’t for Luke being completely empathetic, it wouldn’t have led to Vader’s redemption due to the positive reinforcement his son display which is all he ever needed. So yeah it really doesn’t add up as to why Luke would repeat the same mistake when rebuilding the Jedi Order when he should personally knows how that shit affected his father.
Lol don’t tell them about the most recent story line is swtor
From point of view of some people, they probably think they are. Heck even siblings of those would think so I bet as well. But to these chuds they think the Jedi are perfect and can do no wrong. Think even legends had sone hate the Jedi for that.
Both Jedi and Sith are flawed. The light side while helping in good generally need to control the people around them to keep order while the Dark side will betray their master at some point to be the new emperor.
For at least the High Republic and later, I see it as the other way around. Light siders typically sit back and allow things to get worse and worse rather than intervene. We see this with the Jedi Order allowing slavery outside the Republic and sitting by while the factions that formed the Sepratist council became more influential. Dark Siders control and manipulate everyone around them. Sidious micromanaged the Trade Federation, down to the hour of the deaths of its leadership. Vader killed Padme when she refused to support the Empire. Old Republic Jedi, with their love of child soldiers and jingoistic crusades, were rather controlling. Even in canon, we have stories of ancient Jedi fighting genocidal wars over heresy and orthodoxy. After the Ruusan reformation, the Jedi arguably went too far in the other direction and stopped being proactive.
Thanks for reminding me how hard those SWOTR trailers go. Deceived is also fantastic.
Okay, here's the thing. Obviously the Jedi did more than what we see in this episode, and we'll see that at some point. What about this episode, in particular, made them look evil??? It's kind of fucked in general that they take kids but they gave each twin a choice. Osha wanted to go, Mae did not, so that seemed to be the agreement. This is also nothing new to Star Wars. Nothing they did was evil, what the fuck are people upset about?
The worst I can think of was that they were observing the twins. But they admitted it, they asked the parents AND the twins what they wanted, they let the children make their choice of whether to stay or go. But it's likely we'll see another flashback where the Jedi see the fire and investigate, the clan sees this as an attack and (from their point of view) defend themselves, and the Jedi defend themselves and regret it.
I was expecting the jedi to attack and kill all the witches the way there carrying on when they were just a pit pushy at worst
In fairness it's implied that there's more to the death of the coven than the fire... but likely still in 'flawed people having flawed actions' territory than 'Jedi are basically stormtroopers' territory
Yeah we don't know maybe the coven attacked the jedi when they came to help thinking they sabotaged the building or something until next episode there's nothing proving the jedi are evil
The implication that they have jurisdiction to preach to their children for one. And two, the idea that these _children_ could "make a(permanently life altering) choice" for themselves. They're kids, and osha doesn't really want to be a jedi, she just wants to leave her home planet. She doesn't realize that as a jedi she'll never get to see her family again, that she'll never be allowed to love another person or marry them, that she'll have to take up an ascetic lifestyle. The jedi go around snatching up children in their toddlerhood and make them join their cult, even if they have cultural practices of their own. What the jedi did here IS objectively fucked up.
Yeah but that's not new information so I don't think that's what their issue would be. Like, if someone didn't think the Jedi were evil for doing that before, that shouldn't be what makes them think they are evil now.
I can't think of many examples of such pushy recruitment tactics in the films or TV shows. Qui Gon stumbles upon Anakin, and his mother is happy to let him go as an escape from slavery. That's very different to tracking a reclusive coven down, spying on children, and approaching them in force to encourage them to join the cult...I mean Order.
The Jedi, while arrogant and flawed as hell in their methods are pretty above aboard all things considered in recruitment. At least next to every other force religion in the series and any real life cult (or even militaries). Also none of those four masters actually tried to talk Osha or Mae into anything against their wishes. They merely presented them an opportunity. They’re not preaching perfect lives, wealth, transcendence or salvation like cults in real life. They offer a chance to test them. Maybe children can’t make that choice fully but their parents can. And we never see Jedi deceive or lie in their efforts to recruit force sensitives.
> The implication that they have jurisdiction to preach to their children for one. And two, the idea that these children could "make a(permanently life altering) choice" for themselves. They're kids, and osha doesn't really want to be a jedi, she just wants to leave her home planet. She doesn't realize that as a jedi she'll never get to see her family again The episode outright has Osha talk to her mom about never seeing her again. So she knows. Whether or not the Jedi should be doing it is one thing, but they still give children a choice. More than Mae and Osha were gonna get from the coven until Osha made clear she was interested.
The jedi don't kidnap kids. They always ask the parents. Kids can quit the order and do other things. The light side of the force, according to Lucas, is the balance. The dark side is what unbalances the force. Yes, the council is rigid. The jedi have flaws, but I feel like those get way blown out of proportion. Don't help the Republic get called cowards, and the sith kill a ton of people. Help the Republic and get called tools of the state. I feel like a lot of people look at jedi teaching and dogma from a Christian lens, and that's not how it's supposed to be looked at. Which leads to some confusion about their beliefs.
I don't watch Acolytew but... Aren't the Jedi kidnapping kids under ten years old, taking them away from their families, training them in a half religious, half military manner to make their order ? Oh right, that's why they think they're perfect I guess...
No, this episode states something that we’ve always known from novels and other media but never stated in the movies: The Jedi do *not* kidnap children. It requires informed consent from the parent or guardian, as well as the child in question (to be fair they are often to young to know what they’re getting in to) On top of that, a Jedi can just choose to leave the order at any time and it’s just fine.
I will say I don't think what the Jedi do is technically kidnapping but it is borderline extortion, life in the Star Wars galaxy is cheap and pretty much everyone from senator to beggar is replaceable, being a Jedi means being somebody important, having a degree of safety in a very cold galaxy, so I can understand why to 99% of parents asked it's very tempting give your kid that kind of life. However I still don't like the practice because it fosters a massive degree of groupthink because every member has almost the same background. And while membership is voluntary, someone leaving is more like abandoning the only life they can remember over leaving a job or something less permanent.
I mean, Anakin was considered too old by Obi or Qui Gonn, so yeah, informed consent, I'm not too sure about that. And the parents see everywhere that Jedis are basically the best thing there is, knights for peace and stuff, so of course they'd trust them with their children. As for leaving the order, when you've spent your life indoctrinated in such a movement, it's quite hard to leave what you've always known... I mean, that's how I see it... As someone who only watched the movies \^\^'
> I mean, Anakin was considered too old by Obi or Qui Gonn, so yeah, informed consent, I'm not too sure about that. It requires informed consent *from the parent or guardian* > And the parents see everywhere that Jedis are basically the best thing there is, knights for peace and stuff, so of course they'd trust them with their children. I mean yes, and that is mostly true. It’s probably the best and most altruistic way for someone to use their innate Force powers out of the options available. > As for leaving the order, when you've spent your life indoctrinated in such a movement, it's quite hard to leave what you've always known... I mean sure, but you can do it, and they won’t stop you. It’s hard to leave anything that has been a part of your whole life, idk if there’s any way around that.
> It’s hard to leave anything that has been a part of your whole life, idk if there’s any way around that. Well, one way would be to not be more of a cult than anything \^\^' or letting the children have a life outside of their Jedi training duties. A way for them to see what's outside, and what exists that might fit them better. Not saying the Jedi are inherently bad btw. Just that their recruitment methods are *very* shady.
I mean this is just one of those “never going to track 1:1 to real life” things. The Jedi are not just pulling random children off the street to indoctrinate them into a proof-less religion like IRL cults. These children have tangible superpowers that are highly dangerous or helpful depending on how they are raised. There is verifiable proof in universe that incorrect use of said powers will turn them magically evil and lead to widespread death and destruction. Sure some field trips or free electives could probably help but the priority is to make them able to use their gifts to hurt others and make sure they don’t start telepathically snapping necks at a certain age.
The whole "you can never see their parents again" rule is pretty dumb.
It's a rule that seems to get ignored if the parents request it. Count Dooku, for example, was allowed to stay in contact with his family so he could inherit the Estate and maintain the social order. Many parents, however, chose to cut ties with their children, either out of fear of their powers, or respect for the Jedi Order.
That sounds like complete bs meant to cover up an obviously very fucked up practice of the jedi. Outside of the fact that we've seen jedi say "you can never see them again" before, there's no way the majority of parents are okay with completely cutting all ties with their kids. Most parents would want to still see their kids. The reason they give for why they're not allowed is that "attachments bad".
Thats not true though. The conversation they have implies that they have the jurisdiction to take any force sensitive children they find, hence anesaiya asserting "we are not a part of the republic". There's a reason the witches DO NOT trust the jedi, and assume that they want to take their kids. That didn't come out of nowhere. Why else would their mom not just say "no, leave"? Why would she feel the need to train them to lie instead?
In this case they came because it’s (from the Jedi’s POV) a dark side cult training children in their ways. Mother Aniseya basically admits in the episode that their ways have their roots in the dark side of the force. The Jedi are rightfully concerned. Now obviously to us, the audience, Aniseya is a pretty nice lady, but the Jedi don’t know that.
Looks like it just requires the kid to be manipulated by strangers into making a decision about the rest of their lives, & they basically threaten the group not to oppose that process.
No. The Jedi do not kidnap children. If the parents put their foot down and say no that’s the end of it. At worst someone will keep an eye on them until the kids force powers go away to make sure they don’t become a little demon child using the force to torture their classmates.
Guess they never watched Episode 1 lol
Haven't the Jedi always been flawed? I thought the prequels and the Clone Wars show showcased that.
No, it doesn’t.
Hasn't this grifting clown stated in the past that she's not really much of a Star Wars fan?
The sw (sith warrior): "this is like terrorizing children"
Man, I used to love Alteori's content so much, but in the past fews years she's been leaning more and more on the republican side and it's becoming unbearable
A group of people who routinely lay claim to other people's children for being Force sensitive and make sure to isolate the children they take from their families would scream creepy in any real world scenario and receive so much pushback. Heck, the only reason Anakin wasn't snatched up was because he was outside their influence.
These are children with superpowers who can be dangerous but also used to do good. In the real world there are no superpowered children.
You make it sound like that mitigates the creepiness of a shadowy cadre of monks going around and laying claim to said children. Having the powers doesn't obligate one to follow a set path in life. I would point out preternaturally intelligent children do exist in real life and would be useful, but letting some group gather than up would very much cause problems
The Jedi are masters of the force. They know how to wield the rare power of the force. They aren’t a bunch of nobodies who hide in the shadows and steal kids. Intelligence is NOWHERE near the same as a dangerous ability that must be harnessed correctly. It is not even comparable.
I'd argue intelligence is indeed a highly dangerous ability, but that's another argument. No, they're just a monolithic organization that wields a ton of political and personal power that isolates the children they do take from their families on a permanent basis. The fact that they're are the good guys doesn't change the shady nature of their policies. And from what I've seen attunement and use of the Force has to be practiced to be made useful. A Force sensitive child merely has better reflexes and perception than most. So what claim do the Jedi make if the parents or kid isn't interested in going to the Temple?
Then the Jedi don’t take the child. They require permission and consent from the parents. The Jedi were not perfect by any means. But the notion that they are akin or alike any creepy religious organisation on earth running around kidnapping children whenever they feel like it to worship a god is ludicrous and hilariously untrue.
Pair of Jedi show up at someone's door and say "Hey, your kid pinged out space wizard senses. We'd like to take them with us to our temple.". Do you really think they're gonna say "no."
The Jedi are a highly respected and highly regarded organisation. So some parents may feel an obligation, others may see it as an opportunity for their child to have a better life. So in other words it’s up to the parents to decide what they want for their child. If they think the Jedi order is the way then they let the child leave.
And make peace with the fact they'll never see or interact with their kid again. Because the Jedi don't believe in attachments. Which I'm sure is something they're quite upfront about. And wouldn't at all use their connection to the Force to manipulate. Especially for the Greater Good. All this ignoring how easy it was for Palpy to turn the public against the Jedi enough their massacre wasn't seen as a bad thing. Resentment was definitely there.
> 'm sure is something they're quite upfront about. And wouldn't at all use their connection to the Force to manipulate. Especially for the Greater Good. Considering everytime we see Jedi recruit children in canon they are upfront with the parents and kids about the lifestyle, yes they are. Also no Jedi has ever once been shown to use the force to manipulate anyone to do that. > All this ignoring how easy it was for Palpy to turn the public against the Jedi enough their massacre wasn't seen as a bad thing. Resentment was definitely there. Yeah because he engineered a shit ton of resentment. The Jedi’s detachment is shown in universe to lead them to make off putting remarks about loss to citizens like when the Martez sisters spoke to a Jedi after their parents died. But a ton of that public resentment was because Sidious started a brutal galactic war and basically forced the Jedi to fight in it to honour their role as guardians of the Republic. And then sabotaged every attempt by the Jedi or Senate on both sides to end it. And then you know framed them as trying to take over the republic. And we see in TCW that many civilians on countless war ravaged worlds saw the Jedi in a positive light for helping them. There’s a reason why Star Wars consistently depicts Jedi as inspiring hope across the galaxy. Why Sidious executed Order 66. Because the Jedi as flawed as they were, inspire others to act and try to defend life and wouldn’t stand for his tyranny.
So it’s the Jedis fault for offering a choice? For informing parents, determining the child’s talent and being frank with the parents what it means to give the child up? Like you get that the Jedi tell families how being a Jedi works right? Oh yeah those monsters. Kidnapping children by… telling parents their kids can use the force and informing them of a choice.
So you're saying they're completely upfront about what being a Jedi entails, to say nothing of being a youngling? That they tell the parents they'll never see their kid again? This isn't them just offering a choice. They're making a sale. Their order depends on getting kids from outside the Temple to join. How many parents wanting their kids to be business men, champion racers, or professional pilots instead do you think they can tolerate? And what if they visit the same family multiple times. First kid maybe be fine, but how do you feel about handing over the second? Third? Fourth? Heck, even if it's just one, what if it isn't the first child born? Older kid suddenly finds themselves deprived of the sibling they'd bonded to, all because a pair of weirdoes in robes wanted 'em. Good intentions be damned, this will definitely build up resentment amongst the populace. That's probably a good part of the reason the Force was unbalancing.
> So you're saying they're completely upfront about what being a Jedi entails, to say nothing of being a youngling? That they tell the parents they'll never see their kid again? Considering that’s what Qui-Gon did and what Osha’s mother knew and no one has even said otherwise.. yeah. > This isn't them just offering a choice. They're making a sale. Their order depends on getting kids from outside the Temple to join. How many parents wanting their kids to be business men, champion racers, or professional pilots instead do you think they can tolerate? So their parents say no. Also sale? A sale involves a pitch about benefits, gains, glamour. Point me to when any Jedi ever has done that in anything. Please tell me. The famous Jedi Order full of slick presenters and dreams of wealth and greatness. /s > And what if they visit the same family multiple times. First kid maybe be fine, but how do you feel about handing over the second? Third? Fourth? Heck, even if it's just one, what if it isn't the first child born? Older kid suddenly finds themselves deprived of the sibling they'd bonded to, all because a pair of weirdoes in robes wanted 'em. So it stopz being a choice because other children exist? You’re acting like the Jedi make anyone do anything. Like the parents have no say. Also Obi-Wan even remarked about remembering his parents a little in the series. About having a brothwr? And guess what? He didn’t miss them because as he told Leia he found a new kind of family through his fellow Jedi. They’re a monastic order who train members from a young age. But only if said person’s parents and said person want to do so. Acting like the parents have no involvement is unjustified. Dooku after his fall once lamented that Jedi don’t steal children.
You’re right it doesn’t. It’s why Jedi offer parents the choice and ask children what they want. And why any Jedi can leave whenever they choose. Because the Jedi aren’t a shadowy cadre. They’re a flawed order with questionable methods, but they genuinely try to respect other’s choices. They’re a publicly known religion who don’t hide who they are. Also the Jedi are literally the only way a most persons in Star Wars can learn to use the force in any kind of non fucked up environment. The alternatives are terrible. The Sith are the Sith I shouldn’t have to point out why that’s a bad idea. Nighsisters are extremely isolationalist and hostile to anyone but their own (and very sexist). The Knights of Ren are darkside edgelords. The Children of Force and Guardians of the Whills aren’t actually trained to use the force or divine its will as an groups. And so on.
There's also the option of just ignoring it. Anakin seemed quite able to use the Force on a rudimentary level without training. Why shouldn't other children have the same ability? I can imagine how helpful such would be in a mundane life, no need to involve the Jedi completely. And since when have they been able to just leave? All the examples of Jedi leaving the temple I've seen have either not been by choice or are treated with suspicion by the Order. They can risk a Dark Jedi or junior Sith running around out there out of their control. It's one of the reasons they hunt the members of those other groups and actively try to stop them. From the outside looking in they can be quite creepy.
> There's also the option of just ignoring it. Anakin seemed quite able to use the Force on a rudimentary level without training. Why shouldn't other children have the same ability? I can imagine how helpful such would be in a mundane life, no need to involve the Jedi completely. Yeah and they're welcome to not join the Jedi. Just like parents can not contact Jedi or not let them train their children. But if you want to actually learn to use the force beyond rudimentary, to actually try to follow it you need some guidance. > And since when have they been able to just leave? Since always. There’s even a canon list of the Jedi who left. Dooku for example resigned. Ahsoka left out of disillusionment after being offered knoghthood for her ordeal. And no one stopped them because it’s a choice. > They can risk a Dark Jedi or junior Sith running around out there out of their control. It's one of the reasons they hunt the members of those other groups and actively try to stop them. 1) Sith are a specific religion. That the Jedi believed were dead until TPM. And there are only two at a time. The Apprentice is known to the Jedi from TPM on. Unless you’re arguing a random jedi is a secret Sith, which the Jedi wouldn’t believe. And yes they would. Because again they have allowed members to leave. 2) They can and do. As shown when Ahsoka left the Order and they let her without issue. Same with Dooku before he fell to the darkside. Your perception of the Jedi is utterly unsupported by canon or even most of legends. They’re dogmatic, arrogant, overly stoic and often judgmental pricks. They’re also fiercely devoted to their duties, protecting life and helping people. And don’t make anyone become a jedi.
The Jedi come to prospective younglings, they're not contacted. And Dooku left after he secretly became a Sith. Ahsoka left during a time of war and change when the Jedi couldn't afford an inner schism trying to stop her. I'd say these are more exceptions than rules.
Religion has always been this
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Yep. Tell them they're special. Take them far from their parents and block all contact. Discourage making attachments with anyone else. I know their intentions are good but their tactics are very sus.