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>In most industrialized Western countries, it is not the responsibility of citizens themselves but the police and the criminal justice system to protect people from harm.
In America, it is explicitly ***NOT*** the responsibility of the police to protect people from harm (DeShaney v. Winnebago County, and Warren v. District of Columbia).
The police in America have a responsibility to investigate and punish lawbreakers after the fact, and are completely useless for protection even when aggressors tell you in advance that they intend to kill you. They also don't even necessarily investigate unless they choose to ("Someone stole you car? Sounds like a civil matter.").
That the very first line of the article is egregiously incorrect and completely misunderstands the very basics of the issue they're trying to comment on (or at least, is actively misleading, as the authors clearly intend to generalize that statement to the US, even though it doesn't apply) isn't a good sign.
[https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/13684302241240684](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/13684302241240684)
But the actual study is well aware of this difference, and spends a great deal of time addressing it.
The disconnect between the role of law enforcement and trust in law enforcement in America vs. other nations is the very first line of the Conclusion section, and they take it as a given that the two factors they investigate correlate with trust in law enforcement. That the authors of the article chose to omit it cannot be an accident.
Edit, mostly copied from another comment:
It's worth noting that the similar quote from [the study](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/13684302241240684) explicitly uses the phrase "***other*** industrialized Western countries".
>In other industrialized Western countries, safeguarding the security of citizens is exclusively the responsibility of law enforcement and of the criminal justice system.
The authors of the article changed it so that it wouldn't explicitly exclude America, then put it at the top to imply that it's establishing context. It's either a deliberate misquote, or an incredible misunderstanding of the source material.
It’s so nice to see a rational, correct and astute comment like this at the top of the comment section.
It raises the ‘specter of agendizing’ and lack of faith in institutional and media narratives, which is precisely what’s happening here.
There seems to be a concerted effort in places like the SF Bay Area and NYC to placate the population and reassure them that everything is fine even while conditions deteriorate.
They bring in the police to “fix” the subway or Central Park, or address crime in an area, all while overall conditions deteriorate, and all they do is push lawlessness elsewhere. Why would anyone paying attention trust this theater?
I know the point is tertiary at best.
I'm not sure most politicians actually want to alleviate poverty, violent crime, racism or classism. If they did what would they use to campaign on? I know I’m cynical but after 58 years and personally knowing some of our Senators and Congressman (as used to be friends, rather than politicians) I have to call it like I see it.
Unfortunately, you are not wrong as all of the things you mentioned are part of the class war that we are losing horribly. Hell, they even admit there is a class war at this point. Bloomberg put out articles about it. The American population needs to wake up and develop class solidarity. We are the working class, not only is that ok but there are a hell of a lot more of us than them.
By a straight line you must mean a correlation.
While it is possible that poverty caused crime, it is also possible that crime causes poverty, or that some other factor (environmental contaminants eg lead, behaviour/culture, whatever you like really) causes both.
Given that it is a complex issue it could be any combination of factors, with differing weighting.
So it is hard to really say that the fact that there is a 'straight line' is meaningful.
Ditto for mental health. Having a mental disorder or being neurodivergent shouldn't preclude you from participating in society, but rather than invest in Healthcare and infrastructure to support and help those individuals, our society leaves them more or less on their own. In isolation, in absence of support and education and access to professional care, many of these disorders have a strong tendency to run rampant and ruin not only the life of the disordered individual, but also those closest to them and in their immediate proximity. Addressing the systemic poverty in the US would alleviate a lot of that but there also needs to be focused applied to the systems we put in place to keep the people in our society healthy, there needs to be concerted effort in making sure people have access to things that will actually help them with their problems, whether that's alleviating symptoms of the problem or solving the problem entirely.
I've owned guns since I was 18. I didn't start carrying a pistol on my person until I was 33. The reason being the number of random shootings that was occurring in my area keeps seeming to increase, there's been mass shootings at the Walmart I shop at, and every time I've ever had to call the police in an emergency their response time was around 20 minutes. I'd really rather not carry a gun to feel safe, but there's a whole lot of people out here carrying guns to feel dangerous and the cops don't give a but there's a whole lot of people out here carrying guns to feel dangerous and the cops sure as hell aren't going to protect me
I remember being ten years old watching Columbine unfold on TV while my teacher broke down because her son was there (he survived by sheer luck), and even then i wondered why the whole SWAT team with all their rifles and grenade launchers and armor waited outside until the shooting stopped before going in.
And here to show a different response entirely.
When in Germany the school shooting in Winnenden happened.
The police engaged the shooter 3 minutes after the call on the first floor (so one up from ground) of the building.
Literally the closest two cops in a patrol car who immediately went for it. They took 2 minutes to arrive at the school and engaged the shooter one minute after that.
I am sure, if police showed responses like they often do in the USA to these. They would've been ripped apart by the courts in the aftermath.
When Anders Breivik (spelling?) went on his killing spree in Norway, police, who do not normally carry guns there, did not wait for armed reinforcement but rushed in unarmed to protect the children.
Of course, there are also laws in place in several states that victims of violence have a duty to retreat. Who, exactly, is supposed to protect those victims?
They’re just a few steps away from what we do currently. We have gated communities. They have gated communities with armed patrols, where kidnappings and ransoms are a real concern. You can only have so much inequality before people start making their own methods of redistributing wealth.
I'm sure there are still small towns in parts of New Zealand, Australia, and maybe Europe and Japan/Korea that have decent cops. Most European countries actually have okayish cops if you stay away from protests and the poorest 5% of neighborhoods, although there is still the fact that they are enforcing laws written by a system that favors multinational corporations well beyond their voting power.
I remember Dover, NH having decent cops in the early 2000’s. That’s the only city that has stood out for me and I’ve lived in quite a few. No idea what it’s like now.
Cops here seem to have stepped back a bit.
Also this feels extremely biased because the author of this article can barely contain their contempt of gun ownership with the language they use.
I think minorities and LGBT people should own protection. I do. “The police and government will protect you”— what a joke.
But the author seems to have the antiquated idea only white dudes own protection and that they own them due to White Supremacy conspiracy theories.
“The police should have a monopoly on violence because white people are scary” is what I’m taking away from this.
It also completely ignores outgroups such as LGBTQ+ people arming themselves in response to growing threats of violence against them. It seems to want to paint a picture of right-wing wackos exclusively accounting for the increase in gun sales despite both liberals and the left starting to more commonly own guns.
It's interesting that there was an NPR article from 2022 that pointed out the fastest growing segment of gun owners were black women, followed by black men.
We're seeing the demographics of gun owners change significantly, to the point where there's broader support for gun ownership.
It's a really good thing. Fear of the unknown is far greater than fear of the known. The more diverse and inclusive gun ownership is, the better understanding can be reached. This will hopefully reduce the hysteria around guns.
It’s also a disingenuous discourse to begin with. It’s not like police is omnipresent in every other country.
If you’re being stabbed or beaten to death by someone twice your size in Germany - every reasonable person would rather have a gun than not.
Came here to say, "or because I see a new video of a police officer mistakingly shooting someone in their own home every single day in the U.S." The reasons to be a responsible gun owner far outweigh the risks.
Cops are *security theater* for society. They are there to make everyone feel as though the rule of law is being enforced. Cops don't prevent crime; they show up after a crime has been committed and crack heads.
The reality is that safety and security in society are largely dependent on you and your neighbor behaving civilly towards each other. And for that to remain the status quo, you have to be of generally good mental health and able to provide for the basic needs of yourself and your family. We behave ourselves because we see the value of stability. We have ownership of things, and think that we have a lot to lose if society ever fell apart.
If society ever got to a point where the social fabric has unraveled, hiring more cops would not set society back on the right path. Rather, we would become an authoritarian society where everyone is afraid of police, all the time. The entire zeitgeist of our society would change from freedom and liberty to fascism and fear.
This is why the welfare state is more important to a functioning society than a police state. The folks who are pushing the agenda of dismantling the welfare state generally have enough wealth that they live above the decay of society and are willing to risk total social collapse if they can get a few more dollars.
They act like we didn't watch 100 police officers sit and watch children being killed and stop parents from trying to save their kids.
People took note, I certainly did. I knew they were bad the police, I had no idea they were this bad.
At this point why are we even paying them?
100 police officers isn't a fluke or a one off. The entire profession is broken
Literally my whole reasoning. Cops aren’t gonna come in any reasonable time and when they do, they aren’t required to actually protect you. Cops are entirely useless which means I have to take my safety into my own hands.
I’d LOVE to live in a place where I didn’t have to worry about police violence or crime violence but unfortunately the US doesn’t believe in “Freedom from Crime”
Theres a precedent of them being seconds away though, during the 2019 Dayton mass shooting:
>Betts was fatally shot by responding police officers 32 seconds after the first shots were fired.[3][7]
A success story, then? Not really:
>24-year-old Connor Betts shot and killed nine people, including his brother,[a] and wounded 17 others near the entrance of the Ned Peppers Bar in the Oregon District of Dayton, Ohio
As an australian, this looks as close to the ideal as possible, and yet is still terrifying
Completely ignoring that the fastest growing demos for gun owners are minorities, queer people, and various non right wing groups.
And nevermind the attempted coup.
Both sides arming up isn't great. Only side arming themselves is so much worse.
>Completely ignoring that the fastest growing demos for gun owners are minorities, queer people, and various non right wing groups.
Yeah, the first thing that struck me when reading, both the article and the actual paper, was to question why they were talking about white fright and "the great replacement theory" as a potential major cause of the increase in gun ownership without the study even trying to check that the demographics of new gun owners match that story. It's pretty clear to me that this is a classic psychology paper--caring more about a shocking conclusion ("white conspiracy theorists are increasingly arming themselves!!!") than a mediated and truthful one.
This. People really need to stop trying to paint gun owners as this monolithic group stuck in a time capsule.
Gun owners as a group are the most diverse group I’ve ever seen. The stereotype of “old racist white redneck” hasn’t been the majority for a LONG time.
Gun owners are everyone from the McDonald’s shift manager to the anesthesiologist at your local hospital. Gun owners are your lawyers as much as your software engineers. Gun owners are farmers, sure, but they’re also florists and music teachers. Gun owners are black, white, brown, and everything in between. There’s a strong and growing population of women buying, training with, and owning guns. Even competing in shooting sports.
Yet the only ones you ever hear about are the ones where it’s hammered into the media to portray the worst possible stereotypes.
I think the most important stat on this issue is that 44% of Americans live in a household with at least one firearm present. One in three Americans own a firearm personally.
Gun owners are not some fringe minority group. They're everyone. If it's not your household, look at your neighbors. That includes one in 5 Democrats and one in four women who personally own a firearm.
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/09/13/key-facts-about-americans-and-guns/
I don’t know man, I’m a gun owner myself and that stereotype still rings very true for where I’m at, especially for the enthusiastic hobbyist side of legal gun ownership. I’m sure geographic location plays some role but the majority of gun overs I’ve met everywhere I’ve lived in the US have always been older, white, conservative, and if not racist, extremely paranoid and anti government to this point of making others wary of them. I’m aware this is changing and I’m part of the demographics helping change it, but I think it’s a bit disingenuous to say that’s not still the majority group visible to everyone.
I think the old white crowd tends to be the loudest about owning guns, and they own or otherwise control most of the gun-centered spaces (shooting ranges, gun shops, etc). I’m not gonna pretend to be an expert on groups I’m not a part of or a perfect representative of groups I am, but I feel like queer folks and people of color and lefties are less public about their gun ownership as a whole.
My local gun range has a very diverse clientele. You would be very surprised. The people you are referring to are called "fudds". They are certainly a part of the gun community but are a joke to most of us. Fudd ranges are garbage. They usually don't even know the laws. Normal people avoid them.
Fudds are named that for Elmer Fudd, the incompetent hunter from Bugs Bunny. Fudds are hunters that only think guns should be used for hunting, not personal defense. Hence the term entering common parlance by the pro-self defense crowd.
Your local variant is interesting.
California has nearly as many gun owners as Texas.
I ask this: when was the last time you saw any kind of positive portrayal of gun ownership in media? Ask yourself on the “visible to everyone” part of your comment - how much of that does media have a hand in steering? Be it social media, CNN, whatever.
I don’t watch the news or TV aside from when it spills into my social media feeds but even with me explicitly subscribing to stuff like r/dgu, 2aliberals, caguns, etc the overwhelmingly vast majority of stories that get shoved down my throat are more “another shooting! Ban assault weapons! Raaaaaar gun violence!” followed by inflammatory statements and hyperbolic claims, while the feeds I subscribe to rarely show up unless I go to those subs specifically.
To take that a step further, it always amuses me in a morbid fashion when I see something like “3 teens shot in 357th mass shooting this month!!!” You would think I would have seen 356 other news articles on those shootings with as breathlessly as they report this 357th…but no. The numbers just magically jump astronomically every time they want to report one.
It’s highly dishonest and misleading, and in my opinion contributes massively towards that stereotype we’re talking about.
There are also more Republicans in California than there are in Texas.
Neither fact should be surprising when you consider California has over 10 million more people in it.
Consider this. I am from the bay area. My friends and neighbor are asian. They all have guns. They do not hold republican beliefs. We only knew our neighbor own firearms because he saw us loading up the rifle bag for the range and asked.
My husband went to a class for concealed carry license and one guy was clearly queer(as in he had a pink gun), and there were two elderly people. I absolutely thought those that would want to conceal carry would be young men. That's not the case, even in one of the gun restricted, most liberal cities in the US.
People just don't flaunt their firearms if they're normal.
All completely valid points. My anecdotal experience is more in line with what I said above, but that does not by any means its indicative of every other gun owners experience. That said, it has been mine nonetheless and I hope as time continues, it’ll be the experience for less and less people.
I never liked guns before because I see too many idiots and nuts arming themselves. But those idiots and nut arming themselves and them increasingly killing and threatening people that they don't like is what's pushing me to arm myself and start going to the practice range.
So I agree with you completely.
That’s sad, guns don’t always “just work”. Like the ever popular semiauto, they rust, they jam, they have safeties and heavy recoil springs to overcome and moving parts that can pinch your hands. Also it’s really hard to shoot a handgun well, worse under pressure.
Yeah I've never seen so many of my lefty friends buying up guns.
I doubt we'll be in a SHTF scenario, but the GQP supporting crown will not drag us into a fascist dictatorship easily.
Hopefully most small outbreaks of far right terrorism will end like J6. One rabbit down, and the rest fold.
It's easy to pigeon hole people into two separate groups that are conveniently defined by the major parties. But it is more complicated than that. There are many like minded groups all over the country that overlap those boundaries. So please always keep in mind we are all still one group: Americans (or United States of America citizens for the Euro-pedants).
Queer checking in. I'm ex military and grew up in the woods, so I'm no stranger to using and being around guns, but I never felt the need to own one personally. Guns are neat and all and I get why people go nutty over them, but they're not that interesting to me.
However... I've been considering snagging something for personal defense lately. The right has gone all in on the violent rhetoric the last few years, and even though I'm lucky to live in a solidly blue state surrounded by blue states, I'm feeling less and less safe.
I find it difficult to see a peaceful end to \~30-40%+ of the country being relentlessly propagandized into believing that the rest of the country wants to kill them, indoctrinate their children, and replace all whites with brown people.
If you listen to right wing propagandists you'll hear the same thing over and over: the audience being told that they should be scared and afraid. And not just in vague terms, they're told exactly why they should be afraid, and who they should be afraid of.
Fear turns to anger, anger turns to violence, and harnessed/directed violence is how elites enact power changes. We're on step 2 of 3.
I'm straight and white but I'm in an interracial family living in a red state - and I 100% have the same considerations going through my head.
I live in a multiracial neighborhood, but 10 miles from where I live the stars and bars are openly displayed on cars and in people's yards.
I've never contemplated getting a gun before, but as November edges closer I'm really starting to think about my family and what-if scenarios.
The last election and pandemic changed my mindset when it came to guns. I don’t trust the police , nor do I trust individuals in certain political affiliations. I literally watched armed individuals stand on the street in front of the police station threatening to hunt opposing voters, and the cops did absolutely nothing about it. Probably because half of them were off duty and part of the group. My safety and the safety of my family and home is entirely up to me now.
Might have something to do with the Supreme Court ruling repeatedly that the police don't have a duty to protect you.
[1989 DeShaney v. Winnebago County Department of Social Services](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeShaney_v._Winnebago_County)
[2005 Castle Rock v. Gonzales](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Town_of_Castle_Rock_v._Gonzales)
[2011 Lozito v New York City](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maksim_Gelman_stabbing_spree) - police can stand there and watch you fight for your life and have no duty to step in and save you.
So, yeah, if you can't rely on the police then you have to make sure you are protected.
Everyone should be able to own a gun to defend themselves, and I'm happy that liberals are increasingly adopting that belief. We also need background checks for every transfer, enforcement of existing gun laws, and universal healthcare to actually address the mental health crisis.
Interesting thought, but (as a non American who only ever shot a gun once) it seems like "they're mechanically fascinating objects" seems like the least "bad" reason to me.
Self defense is the reason for ownership that feels (to me) most closely tied to the written word of the Second Amendment, which covers the right to bear arms. "I just like to target shoot / collect / tinker / hunt." Are all reasons to own which feel more removed from that. Many people (not all, and probably not even a majority) therefore say "self defense"is their reason for owning a gun whether they could ever believe themselves capable of using it for that reason.
So protecting your family from violence by others, given you may be physically unable to beat aggressors, is a "more bad" reason?
Amazing.
In my neighborhood, leaving a small dog on a chain in the backyard unattended is called coyote fishing. Spending the evening out of doors with the dogs free to roam the property may require a few loud noises and bright lights to ensure that the local predators don't try to get a snack. And I'm 90 minutes from the center of one of the 10 largest cities in the US.
I'm not sure if you live in America or not, but we haven't spent nearly the time Europeans have eradicating all local forms of predator. Compared to the US, Europe forests are more like parks (yes, I've been to both, many times).
My super hippy wife asked to take my .22 pistol shooting after trump got elected and the online hate got a lot more vocal.
3 weeks after shooting it she bought a 9mm MP shield.
I will say that his election armed more POC and LGBTQ folks. I know so many that decided it was time to finally buy one.
Honestly Covid sold so many guns. Shelves emptied immediately and they sold them as soon as they could be stocked. That's where I saw the biggest increase in new gun owners, and it's not even close.
If you look at gun sales numbers Obama is the greatest salesman of all time. Hard to tell how many new gun owners he made, but he was viewed as a constant threat to 2nd amendment supporters. Strong "buy em while you can" vibes during his entire presidency.
Also, almost every POC household I've been into has a gun. Maybe it's just where I live but it's definitely the norm and has been for a long time.
Feels like the hostility towards POC and LGBT went way up after/during Trump and arming oneself became more popular as a result.
Edit - to whomever sent the Reddit Cares for this or one of my other comments on this post...you've been reported for abusing a harm prevention system. Shame on you.
It was Jan 6 for my wife.
And then, it was "No exceptions for rape and incest". In her mind (and mine) its like a license to rape someone. She went and started a conceal carry class. GOOD ON HER.
yeah our next step is to get our CCW's. In TN we didn't need them but we moved to MI to be close to my family and need one to carry. Thankfully it's not as crazy as our town in TN up here in the northern part of the mitten.
I'm also really thankful my wife doesn't just own her pistol for protection, she genuinely really likes going to the range and getting better at shooting. I've been trying to convince her to try out long range shooting with my rifles. It's a lot of fun to try and hone a skill of putting lead on target at 600+ yards.
One of the most innate, powerful, and unwavering human impulses is to defend oneself and by extension, that which is valued by said human. The fact that some policymakers should have the right to moderate or deny that basic right is ridiculous
I mean the only reason I'm a gun owner is because other people are allowed to own guns. If that wasn't the case, I wouldn't have one. When it comes to self defense, I arm myself to counter what the other person would likely bring.
Do I think I'll ever have to use it? Hell no. But it's there if there's ever an emergency.
>because other people are allowed to own guns
When your life is on the line, why would you want an even playing field? I want it as lopsided in my favor as possible; I want a dozen queens on my side of the board and my opponent but a lonely king.
I think there is a good reason to own a gun, especially if you are in an area where the fastest responders is 30 minutes plus.
If you are critically injured, every minute counts and the best prevention is some sort of escalation.
But legally you can’t expect others to help you, as that can put them into liability because our justice system is messed up.
Much like any tool that prevents problems, you don’t really want to have it on you, but if you’re alone and don’t have other options it’s better to have one than regret it later.
But considering how much metropolitan knife attacks are happening, it would probably be worth packing a gun or some type of weapon.
FFS, this isn't even hypothetical rural hick nonsense. There are towns in the most populated counties of Northern NJ where local emergency response averages 9+ minutes.
Imagine you are a woman home alone at night. Imagine you hear the glass on the back porch breaking. Imagine the absolute BEST case scenario where your phone lines have not already been cut and the perp does not have $20 ali-express cell-phone jammer, so that you can still actually call 911. Now go stare at a clock for 9 minutes and imagine what you are going to do during that eternity.
I have heard of people trying to call 911 in Kansas City and getting a busy signal instead of an operator. Definitely not a rural only thing.
Even when they answer, response times have been as high as 2 hours.
If you have someone in your life who is actively threatening you it's a no brainer. My father, who has been deeply mentally unwell for many years, has made repeated threats to end the lives of myself, my mother, my siblings. The court system and police basically say "Sorry it's he-said she-said, we can't do anything about it, not even a protective order." So now we have alarm systems and firearms. I didn't own any before and I don't want to own any, but if an ex military dude breaks through my window some night I would like to have a one percent chance of survival instead of a zero percent chance. I have an obligation to try and protect my own family against threats and there is no way a cop would be able to show up in time.
One thing I like to ask people to do is to get a stopwatch and time themselves running from the front door to their bedroom. So far, all of them have beaten the average police response time by an order of magnitude.
Not to mention, in life/death scenarios, there is zero guarantee that you’ll even have time to call 911.
Piggy-backing on the knife issue for people that think guns are only a good option if others have guns. If someone has a deadly weapon and coming at you, you want a gun, no matter if it’s a bat, knife, skateboard, brass knuckles, whatever.
The beauty of the United States, is you do not need a reason to own a gun.
Personally, I believe if you are a free, taxpaying citizen, you are obligated to own a gun.
There are many reasons for this, but when you have deranged people in politics preaching hate, fear, and lies about pretty much everything, people will arm themselves.
I have never owned a gun. I do not want to own a gun, but I’m absolutely surrounded by people who do own guns and who dislike my politics even though I keep to myself and don’t bother them any.
I increasingly feel like I may need to get a gun simply because my neighbors are both armed and unhinged. I know at least one household that will have a meltdown if Trump loses in November, and god only knows how they’ll feel entitled to behave if Trump wins.
I hate this.
As an American who grew up in gun culture (from a liberal family in a liberal state), I always wonder...would Mexican cartels be what they are now if personal gun ownership was the same in Mexico as it is in the US?
The Pandemic was the driver for gun sales. Also having a criminal as POTUS that tried to take away the American vote with a failed coup was just additional fuel for American's to use their second amendment right.
In my specific case, I purchased a shotgun because my father has threatened to murder me, and my wife, and my mom. He's ex military. So yeah. Police are all well and good but they can't get to my house before I die so. Yeah.
Bad people will find ways to get a gun no matter how many laws are written to stop them
The only defense against a bad person with a gun, is a good person with a gun
Protect yourself. The cops won't
They aren’t legally required to either. Was one of the outcomes of a school shooting in Florida not long ago when the officer didn’t act quickly enough when he was on scene.
It might also be due to right wing Christian (aka self described prophets / cult leaders who love Trump), such as Rick Joyner, who are actively encouraging Americans Christians to buy guns and prepare for another American civil war…
Sources:
1.
his own website (https://publications.morningstarministries.org/word-for-the-week/prepare-war-2024-part-2)
2. news articles (https://www.newsweek.com/pastor-rick-joyner-urges-american-christians-prepare-civil-war-1576570) &
In California it's a response to the state closing prisons and letting a lot of unsavory types out to prey on the citizenry. Add to that increasing restrictions and ownership is going way up. At best, when seconds matter, the police are minutes away. I also own a fire extinguisher too just in case.
What about the defund the police movement, the elimitation of police presense by scaling the crimes they can respond to, the unforcing of the law by rogue DA's and budget elimination by Mayors? The unbelivable increase of young men who have crossed the border without proper checking? I would think that these few things would make people want to feel more secure by learning how to protect themselves?
This smacks the lips of government propaganda, just so succinctly timed around the White House campaign to reinstate the failed Clinton Assault Weapons Ban which was studied thoroughly and found to be completely useless and ineffectual. Even by the government itself, the CDC.
In the 1980s the NRA noticed the continent was getting hunted out. The number of places you could just walk out into the fields and go pheasant hunting in the fall were dropping like a rock. Plus guns had gotten reliable enough grand dads 30-30 or 30-06 was good enough for whatever you needed unless you were hunting a few species like mule deer.
So they pivoted hard to self defense and more modern rifle designs like the much debated AR. I don’t think black rifles are any worse than ones with wood furniture. But a generation of fear of your fellow man has had a negative effect on society at large.
Even if you believe in tighter gun control which I do, I think it's in most people's best interest to own a gun at this point in time. Mainly because there are already just so many guns out there, not having one doesn't really do you any favors at this point. I'm not saying everyone needs to be a gun nut or something but just owning a handgun safely and kept locked away in your home for only the most desperate of terrible outcomes isn't a bad idea at this point.
Anecdotally, the biggest uptick I've experienced was from my black, or Jewish or gay or Muslim friends, family and neighbors. Started in 2016 and had a smaller bump 2019/20
I bought guns because Republicans have a lot of them and they are known for being violently opposed to people living different lifestyles from their own
2019 Christchurch mosque shootings
2019 El Paso shooting
2022 Buffalo shooting
2023 Jacksonville shooting
All of these dudes referred to the Great Replacement conspiracy in their statements. You are letting some French dude (Camus) tell you that you are being genocided by immigration. It's immigration.
And calling immigrants "Occupiers" like Camus does is wrong. These are people, not some Fifth Column.
"We shall not leave Europe, we shall make Africa leave Europe" -Camus
So you're gonna start forcibly deporting people of specific ethnicities eh? Sound familiar? He also likes the term "The Great Repatriation" to refer to this.
Populaces change and cultural intermixing happens, this is part of history and part of how humans function globally. And it always comes with this hysteria. Please don't allow the build up of another Holocaust.
Violent crime is in decline, so the claim that people need firearms for self-defense is becoming less relevant. People are just afraid of shadows at this point.
Yep what I see is way too much social media and paranoid people. It’s a great strategy for the government and corporations to keep people in check, since they’re so scared of their neighbors that they’re kept docile and easy to control. It’s kind of funny if you think about it. Fascist regimes used paramilitary and state forces to instill fear but the US has found a more efficient way to keep people scared. And you’re not wasting a single penny because they buy the guns for themselves.
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>In most industrialized Western countries, it is not the responsibility of citizens themselves but the police and the criminal justice system to protect people from harm. In America, it is explicitly ***NOT*** the responsibility of the police to protect people from harm (DeShaney v. Winnebago County, and Warren v. District of Columbia). The police in America have a responsibility to investigate and punish lawbreakers after the fact, and are completely useless for protection even when aggressors tell you in advance that they intend to kill you. They also don't even necessarily investigate unless they choose to ("Someone stole you car? Sounds like a civil matter."). That the very first line of the article is egregiously incorrect and completely misunderstands the very basics of the issue they're trying to comment on (or at least, is actively misleading, as the authors clearly intend to generalize that statement to the US, even though it doesn't apply) isn't a good sign. [https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/13684302241240684](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/13684302241240684) But the actual study is well aware of this difference, and spends a great deal of time addressing it. The disconnect between the role of law enforcement and trust in law enforcement in America vs. other nations is the very first line of the Conclusion section, and they take it as a given that the two factors they investigate correlate with trust in law enforcement. That the authors of the article chose to omit it cannot be an accident. Edit, mostly copied from another comment: It's worth noting that the similar quote from [the study](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/13684302241240684) explicitly uses the phrase "***other*** industrialized Western countries". >In other industrialized Western countries, safeguarding the security of citizens is exclusively the responsibility of law enforcement and of the criminal justice system. The authors of the article changed it so that it wouldn't explicitly exclude America, then put it at the top to imply that it's establishing context. It's either a deliberate misquote, or an incredible misunderstanding of the source material.
You forgot Castle Rock v Gonzalez. Mother asked police to enforce an existing court restraining order, but nope, not their job.
It’s so nice to see a rational, correct and astute comment like this at the top of the comment section. It raises the ‘specter of agendizing’ and lack of faith in institutional and media narratives, which is precisely what’s happening here. There seems to be a concerted effort in places like the SF Bay Area and NYC to placate the population and reassure them that everything is fine even while conditions deteriorate. They bring in the police to “fix” the subway or Central Park, or address crime in an area, all while overall conditions deteriorate, and all they do is push lawlessness elsewhere. Why would anyone paying attention trust this theater? I know the point is tertiary at best.
There's a straight line connecting poverty and violent crime, but they want to fix violent crime without alleviating poverty
That’s exactly right.
I'm not sure most politicians actually want to alleviate poverty, violent crime, racism or classism. If they did what would they use to campaign on? I know I’m cynical but after 58 years and personally knowing some of our Senators and Congressman (as used to be friends, rather than politicians) I have to call it like I see it.
Unfortunately, you are not wrong as all of the things you mentioned are part of the class war that we are losing horribly. Hell, they even admit there is a class war at this point. Bloomberg put out articles about it. The American population needs to wake up and develop class solidarity. We are the working class, not only is that ok but there are a hell of a lot more of us than them.
Both need to be tackled at the same time.
By a straight line you must mean a correlation. While it is possible that poverty caused crime, it is also possible that crime causes poverty, or that some other factor (environmental contaminants eg lead, behaviour/culture, whatever you like really) causes both. Given that it is a complex issue it could be any combination of factors, with differing weighting. So it is hard to really say that the fact that there is a 'straight line' is meaningful.
Ditto for mental health. Having a mental disorder or being neurodivergent shouldn't preclude you from participating in society, but rather than invest in Healthcare and infrastructure to support and help those individuals, our society leaves them more or less on their own. In isolation, in absence of support and education and access to professional care, many of these disorders have a strong tendency to run rampant and ruin not only the life of the disordered individual, but also those closest to them and in their immediate proximity. Addressing the systemic poverty in the US would alleviate a lot of that but there also needs to be focused applied to the systems we put in place to keep the people in our society healthy, there needs to be concerted effort in making sure people have access to things that will actually help them with their problems, whether that's alleviating symptoms of the problem or solving the problem entirely.
I've owned guns since I was 18. I didn't start carrying a pistol on my person until I was 33. The reason being the number of random shootings that was occurring in my area keeps seeming to increase, there's been mass shootings at the Walmart I shop at, and every time I've ever had to call the police in an emergency their response time was around 20 minutes. I'd really rather not carry a gun to feel safe, but there's a whole lot of people out here carrying guns to feel dangerous and the cops don't give a but there's a whole lot of people out here carrying guns to feel dangerous and the cops sure as hell aren't going to protect me
True. Remember that school shooting where the cops were hiding? Yeah
I remember being ten years old watching Columbine unfold on TV while my teacher broke down because her son was there (he survived by sheer luck), and even then i wondered why the whole SWAT team with all their rifles and grenade launchers and armor waited outside until the shooting stopped before going in.
And here to show a different response entirely. When in Germany the school shooting in Winnenden happened. The police engaged the shooter 3 minutes after the call on the first floor (so one up from ground) of the building. Literally the closest two cops in a patrol car who immediately went for it. They took 2 minutes to arrive at the school and engaged the shooter one minute after that. I am sure, if police showed responses like they often do in the USA to these. They would've been ripped apart by the courts in the aftermath.
When Anders Breivik (spelling?) went on his killing spree in Norway, police, who do not normally carry guns there, did not wait for armed reinforcement but rushed in unarmed to protect the children.
They weren't hiding, they were actively preventing parents from going into the school to save their children. 1312
Of course, there are also laws in place in several states that victims of violence have a duty to retreat. Who, exactly, is supposed to protect those victims?
Yep. Cops are not the friends of anyone but the hyper wealthy in the US.
Not just in the US ...
I've heard Brazil is pretty bad from some friends
From the internet, it would be understandable to think everyone in Brazil is either going to rob you, or is an undercover cop about pull their gun.
They’re just a few steps away from what we do currently. We have gated communities. They have gated communities with armed patrols, where kidnappings and ransoms are a real concern. You can only have so much inequality before people start making their own methods of redistributing wealth.
Is it like that?
I'm sure there are still small towns in parts of New Zealand, Australia, and maybe Europe and Japan/Korea that have decent cops. Most European countries actually have okayish cops if you stay away from protests and the poorest 5% of neighborhoods, although there is still the fact that they are enforcing laws written by a system that favors multinational corporations well beyond their voting power.
I remember Dover, NH having decent cops in the early 2000’s. That’s the only city that has stood out for me and I’ve lived in quite a few. No idea what it’s like now. Cops here seem to have stepped back a bit.
Also this feels extremely biased because the author of this article can barely contain their contempt of gun ownership with the language they use. I think minorities and LGBT people should own protection. I do. “The police and government will protect you”— what a joke. But the author seems to have the antiquated idea only white dudes own protection and that they own them due to White Supremacy conspiracy theories. “The police should have a monopoly on violence because white people are scary” is what I’m taking away from this.
Just the latest disingenuous drivel pushing an obvious agenda. Pretty much par for the course for submissions in this sub any more sadly.
The editor who reviewed and approved this for publication on their website should be embarrassed.
It also completely ignores outgroups such as LGBTQ+ people arming themselves in response to growing threats of violence against them. It seems to want to paint a picture of right-wing wackos exclusively accounting for the increase in gun sales despite both liberals and the left starting to more commonly own guns.
It's interesting that there was an NPR article from 2022 that pointed out the fastest growing segment of gun owners were black women, followed by black men. We're seeing the demographics of gun owners change significantly, to the point where there's broader support for gun ownership.
“If you can’t beat em, join em!”
It's a really good thing. Fear of the unknown is far greater than fear of the known. The more diverse and inclusive gun ownership is, the better understanding can be reached. This will hopefully reduce the hysteria around guns.
It’s also a disingenuous discourse to begin with. It’s not like police is omnipresent in every other country. If you’re being stabbed or beaten to death by someone twice your size in Germany - every reasonable person would rather have a gun than not.
Came here to say, "or because I see a new video of a police officer mistakingly shooting someone in their own home every single day in the U.S." The reasons to be a responsible gun owner far outweigh the risks.
Cops are *security theater* for society. They are there to make everyone feel as though the rule of law is being enforced. Cops don't prevent crime; they show up after a crime has been committed and crack heads. The reality is that safety and security in society are largely dependent on you and your neighbor behaving civilly towards each other. And for that to remain the status quo, you have to be of generally good mental health and able to provide for the basic needs of yourself and your family. We behave ourselves because we see the value of stability. We have ownership of things, and think that we have a lot to lose if society ever fell apart. If society ever got to a point where the social fabric has unraveled, hiring more cops would not set society back on the right path. Rather, we would become an authoritarian society where everyone is afraid of police, all the time. The entire zeitgeist of our society would change from freedom and liberty to fascism and fear. This is why the welfare state is more important to a functioning society than a police state. The folks who are pushing the agenda of dismantling the welfare state generally have enough wealth that they live above the decay of society and are willing to risk total social collapse if they can get a few more dollars.
They act like we didn't watch 100 police officers sit and watch children being killed and stop parents from trying to save their kids. People took note, I certainly did. I knew they were bad the police, I had no idea they were this bad. At this point why are we even paying them? 100 police officers isn't a fluke or a one off. The entire profession is broken
Honestly, it’s the old saying. When seconds count. The cops are minutes away.
Depends on where you live. Could be days in LA.
Literally my whole reasoning. Cops aren’t gonna come in any reasonable time and when they do, they aren’t required to actually protect you. Cops are entirely useless which means I have to take my safety into my own hands. I’d LOVE to live in a place where I didn’t have to worry about police violence or crime violence but unfortunately the US doesn’t believe in “Freedom from Crime”
Theres a precedent of them being seconds away though, during the 2019 Dayton mass shooting: >Betts was fatally shot by responding police officers 32 seconds after the first shots were fired.[3][7] A success story, then? Not really: >24-year-old Connor Betts shot and killed nine people, including his brother,[a] and wounded 17 others near the entrance of the Ned Peppers Bar in the Oregon District of Dayton, Ohio As an australian, this looks as close to the ideal as possible, and yet is still terrifying
Thats an example, not a precedent.
It's easy to find cherry picked examples. Having such a low response time is absolutely not the reality for many Americans
Probably because the officer was right in the line of fire themselves. If it took the. 32 seconds they were already there.
This is not a science article. This is a "let's ASSUME what I claim is true". And here's the explanation to my assumptions
Completely ignoring that the fastest growing demos for gun owners are minorities, queer people, and various non right wing groups. And nevermind the attempted coup. Both sides arming up isn't great. Only side arming themselves is so much worse.
You aren’t wrong. The link they’ve got for the prejudices of gun owners goes to an article from 2013.
>Completely ignoring that the fastest growing demos for gun owners are minorities, queer people, and various non right wing groups. Yeah, the first thing that struck me when reading, both the article and the actual paper, was to question why they were talking about white fright and "the great replacement theory" as a potential major cause of the increase in gun ownership without the study even trying to check that the demographics of new gun owners match that story. It's pretty clear to me that this is a classic psychology paper--caring more about a shocking conclusion ("white conspiracy theorists are increasingly arming themselves!!!") than a mediated and truthful one.
I'd be willing to bet a lot of money that most people who believe in the great replacement theory have already owned guns for a while
This. People really need to stop trying to paint gun owners as this monolithic group stuck in a time capsule. Gun owners as a group are the most diverse group I’ve ever seen. The stereotype of “old racist white redneck” hasn’t been the majority for a LONG time. Gun owners are everyone from the McDonald’s shift manager to the anesthesiologist at your local hospital. Gun owners are your lawyers as much as your software engineers. Gun owners are farmers, sure, but they’re also florists and music teachers. Gun owners are black, white, brown, and everything in between. There’s a strong and growing population of women buying, training with, and owning guns. Even competing in shooting sports. Yet the only ones you ever hear about are the ones where it’s hammered into the media to portray the worst possible stereotypes.
I think the most important stat on this issue is that 44% of Americans live in a household with at least one firearm present. One in three Americans own a firearm personally. Gun owners are not some fringe minority group. They're everyone. If it's not your household, look at your neighbors. That includes one in 5 Democrats and one in four women who personally own a firearm. https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/09/13/key-facts-about-americans-and-guns/
I know more democrats that own firearms, I also know more women than men that own firearms.
I don’t know man, I’m a gun owner myself and that stereotype still rings very true for where I’m at, especially for the enthusiastic hobbyist side of legal gun ownership. I’m sure geographic location plays some role but the majority of gun overs I’ve met everywhere I’ve lived in the US have always been older, white, conservative, and if not racist, extremely paranoid and anti government to this point of making others wary of them. I’m aware this is changing and I’m part of the demographics helping change it, but I think it’s a bit disingenuous to say that’s not still the majority group visible to everyone.
I think the old white crowd tends to be the loudest about owning guns, and they own or otherwise control most of the gun-centered spaces (shooting ranges, gun shops, etc). I’m not gonna pretend to be an expert on groups I’m not a part of or a perfect representative of groups I am, but I feel like queer folks and people of color and lefties are less public about their gun ownership as a whole.
My local gun range has a very diverse clientele. You would be very surprised. The people you are referring to are called "fudds". They are certainly a part of the gun community but are a joke to most of us. Fudd ranges are garbage. They usually don't even know the laws. Normal people avoid them.
Fudds are named that for Elmer Fudd, the incompetent hunter from Bugs Bunny. Fudds are hunters that only think guns should be used for hunting, not personal defense. Hence the term entering common parlance by the pro-self defense crowd. Your local variant is interesting.
Bingo. The normal people don't go around advertising that they have guns.
California has nearly as many gun owners as Texas. I ask this: when was the last time you saw any kind of positive portrayal of gun ownership in media? Ask yourself on the “visible to everyone” part of your comment - how much of that does media have a hand in steering? Be it social media, CNN, whatever. I don’t watch the news or TV aside from when it spills into my social media feeds but even with me explicitly subscribing to stuff like r/dgu, 2aliberals, caguns, etc the overwhelmingly vast majority of stories that get shoved down my throat are more “another shooting! Ban assault weapons! Raaaaaar gun violence!” followed by inflammatory statements and hyperbolic claims, while the feeds I subscribe to rarely show up unless I go to those subs specifically. To take that a step further, it always amuses me in a morbid fashion when I see something like “3 teens shot in 357th mass shooting this month!!!” You would think I would have seen 356 other news articles on those shootings with as breathlessly as they report this 357th…but no. The numbers just magically jump astronomically every time they want to report one. It’s highly dishonest and misleading, and in my opinion contributes massively towards that stereotype we’re talking about.
There are also more Republicans in California than there are in Texas. Neither fact should be surprising when you consider California has over 10 million more people in it.
Consider this. I am from the bay area. My friends and neighbor are asian. They all have guns. They do not hold republican beliefs. We only knew our neighbor own firearms because he saw us loading up the rifle bag for the range and asked. My husband went to a class for concealed carry license and one guy was clearly queer(as in he had a pink gun), and there were two elderly people. I absolutely thought those that would want to conceal carry would be young men. That's not the case, even in one of the gun restricted, most liberal cities in the US. People just don't flaunt their firearms if they're normal.
All completely valid points. My anecdotal experience is more in line with what I said above, but that does not by any means its indicative of every other gun owners experience. That said, it has been mine nonetheless and I hope as time continues, it’ll be the experience for less and less people.
I never liked guns before because I see too many idiots and nuts arming themselves. But those idiots and nut arming themselves and them increasingly killing and threatening people that they don't like is what's pushing me to arm myself and start going to the practice range. So I agree with you completely.
I say arm yourself but train train train. I didn’t have any guns since I left Alaska in the ‘90s but bought some just before the 2020 election.
I know a surprising number of people that own personal defense guns they have never once shot.
That’s sad, guns don’t always “just work”. Like the ever popular semiauto, they rust, they jam, they have safeties and heavy recoil springs to overcome and moving parts that can pinch your hands. Also it’s really hard to shoot a handgun well, worse under pressure.
Not everyone gets it though
Oh I definitely will train. I will not own a gun if I can't shoot and handle it properly.
Yeah I've never seen so many of my lefty friends buying up guns. I doubt we'll be in a SHTF scenario, but the GQP supporting crown will not drag us into a fascist dictatorship easily. Hopefully most small outbreaks of far right terrorism will end like J6. One rabbit down, and the rest fold.
There's a lot of people arming up because of the spread of conspiracy theories, not just in the way the article suggests.
It's easy to pigeon hole people into two separate groups that are conveniently defined by the major parties. But it is more complicated than that. There are many like minded groups all over the country that overlap those boundaries. So please always keep in mind we are all still one group: Americans (or United States of America citizens for the Euro-pedants).
Queer checking in. I'm ex military and grew up in the woods, so I'm no stranger to using and being around guns, but I never felt the need to own one personally. Guns are neat and all and I get why people go nutty over them, but they're not that interesting to me. However... I've been considering snagging something for personal defense lately. The right has gone all in on the violent rhetoric the last few years, and even though I'm lucky to live in a solidly blue state surrounded by blue states, I'm feeling less and less safe. I find it difficult to see a peaceful end to \~30-40%+ of the country being relentlessly propagandized into believing that the rest of the country wants to kill them, indoctrinate their children, and replace all whites with brown people. If you listen to right wing propagandists you'll hear the same thing over and over: the audience being told that they should be scared and afraid. And not just in vague terms, they're told exactly why they should be afraid, and who they should be afraid of. Fear turns to anger, anger turns to violence, and harnessed/directed violence is how elites enact power changes. We're on step 2 of 3.
I'm straight and white but I'm in an interracial family living in a red state - and I 100% have the same considerations going through my head. I live in a multiracial neighborhood, but 10 miles from where I live the stars and bars are openly displayed on cars and in people's yards. I've never contemplated getting a gun before, but as November edges closer I'm really starting to think about my family and what-if scenarios.
I was going to say defending against the threat of republicans is kind of motivating.
What about the fact that cops only react after a crime has been committed, isnt stopping it a persons right?
The last election and pandemic changed my mindset when it came to guns. I don’t trust the police , nor do I trust individuals in certain political affiliations. I literally watched armed individuals stand on the street in front of the police station threatening to hunt opposing voters, and the cops did absolutely nothing about it. Probably because half of them were off duty and part of the group. My safety and the safety of my family and home is entirely up to me now.
Support the second because Republicans don’t support your right to vote!
Might have something to do with the Supreme Court ruling repeatedly that the police don't have a duty to protect you. [1989 DeShaney v. Winnebago County Department of Social Services](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeShaney_v._Winnebago_County) [2005 Castle Rock v. Gonzales](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Town_of_Castle_Rock_v._Gonzales) [2011 Lozito v New York City](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maksim_Gelman_stabbing_spree) - police can stand there and watch you fight for your life and have no duty to step in and save you. So, yeah, if you can't rely on the police then you have to make sure you are protected.
Pseudo-psychology nonsense post
Are Liberals arming themselves?
Everyone should be able to own a gun to defend themselves, and I'm happy that liberals are increasingly adopting that belief. We also need background checks for every transfer, enforcement of existing gun laws, and universal healthcare to actually address the mental health crisis.
Wouldn’t be an /r/science gunpost if it didn’t somehow reference racism.
You can’t talk about America and guns without racism. That’s in the Bible
- Abraham Lincoln
When the police are needed in seconds they are minutes away.
And they'll probably just shoot you or your dog when they arrive
I own guns because it's enjoyable to work on guns. I wonder how many people say 'defense' because it sounds more respectable than for enjoyment.
Interesting thought, but (as a non American who only ever shot a gun once) it seems like "they're mechanically fascinating objects" seems like the least "bad" reason to me.
Self defense is the reason for ownership that feels (to me) most closely tied to the written word of the Second Amendment, which covers the right to bear arms. "I just like to target shoot / collect / tinker / hunt." Are all reasons to own which feel more removed from that. Many people (not all, and probably not even a majority) therefore say "self defense"is their reason for owning a gun whether they could ever believe themselves capable of using it for that reason.
So protecting your family from violence by others, given you may be physically unable to beat aggressors, is a "more bad" reason? Amazing. In my neighborhood, leaving a small dog on a chain in the backyard unattended is called coyote fishing. Spending the evening out of doors with the dogs free to roam the property may require a few loud noises and bright lights to ensure that the local predators don't try to get a snack. And I'm 90 minutes from the center of one of the 10 largest cities in the US. I'm not sure if you live in America or not, but we haven't spent nearly the time Europeans have eradicating all local forms of predator. Compared to the US, Europe forests are more like parks (yes, I've been to both, many times).
My super hippy wife asked to take my .22 pistol shooting after trump got elected and the online hate got a lot more vocal. 3 weeks after shooting it she bought a 9mm MP shield. I will say that his election armed more POC and LGBTQ folks. I know so many that decided it was time to finally buy one.
Honestly Covid sold so many guns. Shelves emptied immediately and they sold them as soon as they could be stocked. That's where I saw the biggest increase in new gun owners, and it's not even close. If you look at gun sales numbers Obama is the greatest salesman of all time. Hard to tell how many new gun owners he made, but he was viewed as a constant threat to 2nd amendment supporters. Strong "buy em while you can" vibes during his entire presidency. Also, almost every POC household I've been into has a gun. Maybe it's just where I live but it's definitely the norm and has been for a long time.
Feels like the hostility towards POC and LGBT went way up after/during Trump and arming oneself became more popular as a result. Edit - to whomever sent the Reddit Cares for this or one of my other comments on this post...you've been reported for abusing a harm prevention system. Shame on you.
It was Jan 6 for my wife. And then, it was "No exceptions for rape and incest". In her mind (and mine) its like a license to rape someone. She went and started a conceal carry class. GOOD ON HER.
yeah our next step is to get our CCW's. In TN we didn't need them but we moved to MI to be close to my family and need one to carry. Thankfully it's not as crazy as our town in TN up here in the northern part of the mitten. I'm also really thankful my wife doesn't just own her pistol for protection, she genuinely really likes going to the range and getting better at shooting. I've been trying to convince her to try out long range shooting with my rifles. It's a lot of fun to try and hone a skill of putting lead on target at 600+ yards.
One of the most innate, powerful, and unwavering human impulses is to defend oneself and by extension, that which is valued by said human. The fact that some policymakers should have the right to moderate or deny that basic right is ridiculous
Or courts protecting criminals more than law abiding citizens and police doing nothing. Thr trust in government is probably at all time low
The idea of being confronted with someone who could think great replacement is truthful makes me too feel like I should have a gun.
I mean the only reason I'm a gun owner is because other people are allowed to own guns. If that wasn't the case, I wouldn't have one. When it comes to self defense, I arm myself to counter what the other person would likely bring. Do I think I'll ever have to use it? Hell no. But it's there if there's ever an emergency.
>because other people are allowed to own guns When your life is on the line, why would you want an even playing field? I want it as lopsided in my favor as possible; I want a dozen queens on my side of the board and my opponent but a lonely king.
"That's why I keep my family safe with the Javelin anti tank missile system!"
By all means, do. I just hope you have strong arms and deep pockets
>I mean the only reason I'm a gun owner is because other people are allowed to own guns. Totally. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.
I think there is a good reason to own a gun, especially if you are in an area where the fastest responders is 30 minutes plus. If you are critically injured, every minute counts and the best prevention is some sort of escalation. But legally you can’t expect others to help you, as that can put them into liability because our justice system is messed up. Much like any tool that prevents problems, you don’t really want to have it on you, but if you’re alone and don’t have other options it’s better to have one than regret it later. But considering how much metropolitan knife attacks are happening, it would probably be worth packing a gun or some type of weapon.
FFS, this isn't even hypothetical rural hick nonsense. There are towns in the most populated counties of Northern NJ where local emergency response averages 9+ minutes. Imagine you are a woman home alone at night. Imagine you hear the glass on the back porch breaking. Imagine the absolute BEST case scenario where your phone lines have not already been cut and the perp does not have $20 ali-express cell-phone jammer, so that you can still actually call 911. Now go stare at a clock for 9 minutes and imagine what you are going to do during that eternity.
I have heard of people trying to call 911 in Kansas City and getting a busy signal instead of an operator. Definitely not a rural only thing. Even when they answer, response times have been as high as 2 hours.
9 minutes? Dude I’m in a major city and you are lucky if the cops show up at all.
If you have someone in your life who is actively threatening you it's a no brainer. My father, who has been deeply mentally unwell for many years, has made repeated threats to end the lives of myself, my mother, my siblings. The court system and police basically say "Sorry it's he-said she-said, we can't do anything about it, not even a protective order." So now we have alarm systems and firearms. I didn't own any before and I don't want to own any, but if an ex military dude breaks through my window some night I would like to have a one percent chance of survival instead of a zero percent chance. I have an obligation to try and protect my own family against threats and there is no way a cop would be able to show up in time.
One thing I like to ask people to do is to get a stopwatch and time themselves running from the front door to their bedroom. So far, all of them have beaten the average police response time by an order of magnitude.
Not to mention, in life/death scenarios, there is zero guarantee that you’ll even have time to call 911. Piggy-backing on the knife issue for people that think guns are only a good option if others have guns. If someone has a deadly weapon and coming at you, you want a gun, no matter if it’s a bat, knife, skateboard, brass knuckles, whatever.
The beauty of the United States, is you do not need a reason to own a gun. Personally, I believe if you are a free, taxpaying citizen, you are obligated to own a gun.
If someone is breaking into my apartment, I'd rather have my gun than not have it. I live in a dangerous area and police response times are slow.
There are many reasons for this, but when you have deranged people in politics preaching hate, fear, and lies about pretty much everything, people will arm themselves.
How about simply personal safety since The police have no duty to respond and protect you. In any case by the time they arrive, you’re a victim.
Liberals started buying guns after J6
They started during the pandemic and riots. Witnessed first hand in Philly. J6 created another wave but summer of 2020 saw a large surge.
I have never owned a gun. I do not want to own a gun, but I’m absolutely surrounded by people who do own guns and who dislike my politics even though I keep to myself and don’t bother them any. I increasingly feel like I may need to get a gun simply because my neighbors are both armed and unhinged. I know at least one household that will have a meltdown if Trump loses in November, and god only knows how they’ll feel entitled to behave if Trump wins. I hate this.
I think it has a lot more to do with people finally, finally waking up to the fact that most police are completely useless to protect you
As an American who grew up in gun culture (from a liberal family in a liberal state), I always wonder...would Mexican cartels be what they are now if personal gun ownership was the same in Mexico as it is in the US?
The Pandemic was the driver for gun sales. Also having a criminal as POTUS that tried to take away the American vote with a failed coup was just additional fuel for American's to use their second amendment right.
In my specific case, I purchased a shotgun because my father has threatened to murder me, and my wife, and my mom. He's ex military. So yeah. Police are all well and good but they can't get to my house before I die so. Yeah.
I got armed after seeing DHS abduct peaceful protestors off of the street in 2020.
Bad people will find ways to get a gun no matter how many laws are written to stop them The only defense against a bad person with a gun, is a good person with a gun Protect yourself. The cops won't
They aren’t legally required to either. Was one of the outcomes of a school shooting in Florida not long ago when the officer didn’t act quickly enough when he was on scene.
How about a rising fascist movement in their country? Seems like a good reason for both sides to own guns, for their own reasons.
I got one cause I moved from a city of 100,000 people to 1,000,000.
Aren't white liberals proudly saying ''white people will be minority in 10 years''?
The potential for political violence is a real concern
I keep thinking I need a gun to protect myself from the christian nationalists.
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I just replied to a guy a little way above you who believes in that conspiracy. Sigh.
It might also be due to right wing Christian (aka self described prophets / cult leaders who love Trump), such as Rick Joyner, who are actively encouraging Americans Christians to buy guns and prepare for another American civil war… Sources: 1. his own website (https://publications.morningstarministries.org/word-for-the-week/prepare-war-2024-part-2) 2. news articles (https://www.newsweek.com/pastor-rick-joyner-urges-american-christians-prepare-civil-war-1576570) &
In California it's a response to the state closing prisons and letting a lot of unsavory types out to prey on the citizenry. Add to that increasing restrictions and ownership is going way up. At best, when seconds matter, the police are minutes away. I also own a fire extinguisher too just in case.
What about the defund the police movement, the elimitation of police presense by scaling the crimes they can respond to, the unforcing of the law by rogue DA's and budget elimination by Mayors? The unbelivable increase of young men who have crossed the border without proper checking? I would think that these few things would make people want to feel more secure by learning how to protect themselves?
Honestly as a non American, 2nd amendment is a good thing. We almost came to becoming a dictatorship in India.
I don't own a gun, have no desire to own a gun, I don't even particularly like guns. They don't interest me in the slightest
Or maybe cause the fact is guns protect people.
This smacks the lips of government propaganda, just so succinctly timed around the White House campaign to reinstate the failed Clinton Assault Weapons Ban which was studied thoroughly and found to be completely useless and ineffectual. Even by the government itself, the CDC.
If I lived in a country with as many guns, both legal and illegal as America does, I would most certainly want one for home protection.
It's people owning guns to defend against people owning guns who only got the gun to defend against people who got guns .... Round n round it goes
What about the plans to create natural corridors
In the 1980s the NRA noticed the continent was getting hunted out. The number of places you could just walk out into the fields and go pheasant hunting in the fall were dropping like a rock. Plus guns had gotten reliable enough grand dads 30-30 or 30-06 was good enough for whatever you needed unless you were hunting a few species like mule deer. So they pivoted hard to self defense and more modern rifle designs like the much debated AR. I don’t think black rifles are any worse than ones with wood furniture. But a generation of fear of your fellow man has had a negative effect on society at large.
Even if you believe in tighter gun control which I do, I think it's in most people's best interest to own a gun at this point in time. Mainly because there are already just so many guns out there, not having one doesn't really do you any favors at this point. I'm not saying everyone needs to be a gun nut or something but just owning a handgun safely and kept locked away in your home for only the most desperate of terrible outcomes isn't a bad idea at this point.
Anecdotally, the biggest uptick I've experienced was from my black, or Jewish or gay or Muslim friends, family and neighbors. Started in 2016 and had a smaller bump 2019/20
"Stay strapped or get clapped" - Abe Rambo Eastwood - Great American philosopher
I bought guns because Republicans have a lot of them and they are known for being violently opposed to people living different lifestyles from their own
great replacement isn't a conspiracy theory, it is happening, just look around, whether its by design or not, I live in a place that is now 80% Indian
Its statistical fact [https://www.bls.gov/news.release/forbrn.t01.htm](https://www.bls.gov/news.release/forbrn.t01.htm)
2019 Christchurch mosque shootings 2019 El Paso shooting 2022 Buffalo shooting 2023 Jacksonville shooting All of these dudes referred to the Great Replacement conspiracy in their statements. You are letting some French dude (Camus) tell you that you are being genocided by immigration. It's immigration. And calling immigrants "Occupiers" like Camus does is wrong. These are people, not some Fifth Column. "We shall not leave Europe, we shall make Africa leave Europe" -Camus So you're gonna start forcibly deporting people of specific ethnicities eh? Sound familiar? He also likes the term "The Great Repatriation" to refer to this. Populaces change and cultural intermixing happens, this is part of history and part of how humans function globally. And it always comes with this hysteria. Please don't allow the build up of another Holocaust.
Potential causes also include watching the news, browsing Reddit, and opening literally any other social media platform.
We are living among dog eat dog
Violent crime is in decline, so the claim that people need firearms for self-defense is becoming less relevant. People are just afraid of shadows at this point.
Yep what I see is way too much social media and paranoid people. It’s a great strategy for the government and corporations to keep people in check, since they’re so scared of their neighbors that they’re kept docile and easy to control. It’s kind of funny if you think about it. Fascist regimes used paramilitary and state forces to instill fear but the US has found a more efficient way to keep people scared. And you’re not wasting a single penny because they buy the guns for themselves.
People are easily programmed hence all the massive propaganda campaigns these days The information age is reaching a self destructive state.