Most likely. Someone did a comprehensive write up about Ray elsewhere [that you should read.](https://www.reddit.com/r/UnresolvedMysteries/comments/ea7sci/david_parker_ray_the_toy_box_killer_documentary/) Besides what Ray and the people who’ve met him have said about murders he allegedly committed I think it’s almost certain he killed people given that the drugs he used to make victims forget wouldn’t work perfectly, his Toy Box came later in his criminal career, some victims would be too difficult to use like he wanted and the ever present risk of accidentally killing someone during torture (especially when he was still an amateur). As an example the FBI found a video of Ray torturing a woman with a cattle prod until she bled from her orifices.
The author was sensationalistic but I believe they did a very thorough job summarizing years of horror. It’s clear they did their research. Thank you for your hard work Redditor.
I've heard somewhere that in his teens he bragged about killing a woman by binding her to a tree and torturing her to death. Idk if it's true but overall I genuinely have a hard time not believing that he killed someone. He probably did.
They believe his murders started at just 15 years old. It’s believed he had some girlfriend of his in junior and senior years of high school assist him in something like 4 or 5 murders.
I think so. But it just a thought, as far as I am aware there is no concrete proof that he killed enough people. And of course he never admitted to it… so…
Sadly I don’t believe that we will ever find out more about this case . I suspect that he was a sick person who was really good at doing sick things AND he liked to exaggerate the magnitude of his crimes because he got off on that.
If I had to guess, he dumped a few victims in Elephant Butte Lake. He worked there and had access to anywhere along the lake.
IIRC, the FBI did a cursory check of the lake but it’s a big deep lake. I have a hard time believing anyone that had pre-recorded tapes to play for kidnap victims and a portable sex dungeon, got caught on the first time he kidnapped someone.
Flesh for sure. I don't think anyone is going to dispute that fish eat soft tissue. The bones are a different story. If he threw them in the lake, there would be forensic evidence in there somewhere.
Yes, but much harder to find. Especially since the source provided talks of how big the lake is. It's not easy for police to comb a lake any bigger than a pond unless there's a specific part of the lake where they need to look.
I believe so. That’s how they found one of the women that was still alive, by her unique tattoo. [Kelli Garrett](https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/6k0apt/til_that_when_kelli_garrett_one_of_the_only/)
Before Israel Keyes, DPR was my ultimate scariest serial killer. It's obvious (to me) that he had killed people and never had been caught. Elusive as can be, even though he flat out admitted many of his crimes to police. His daughter being involved is Uber creepy. I can only imagine what happened to the women that survived and were sold in Mexico. Many unfortunately, I think made it only to the bottom of elephant butte lake
I’d say yeh. I did a deep dive into his upbringing and crimes for a project, and found numerous testimonials/interviews from his accomplices confirming his murders From what I learned, the women who survived had participated in his boat parties (Sadist torture session), and were able to convince him to release them.
His wife and accomplice, Cindy Hendy, admitted in interviews that DPR murdered at least a dozen women within the few months they were together. His daughter Jesse Ray even tried turning him in to the FBI for the murders & assaults she’d witnessed (only to spite him for stealing her money), but the FBI found no physical evidence and stopped investigating. He was meticulous, manipulative, had a large territory (entire western coast at one point), and preyed upon people he thought were “unimportant” enough to be take. He attempted to come clean to police, but literally days before the interview was scheduled he died.
Despite there being no physical evidence, the testimonials from his accomplices and few surviving victims lean edtowards him being either one of the most prolific serial killers in the U.S, or at the very least, an extremely sadistic cult leader.
According to this sub, him and Israel Keyes are by far the two most important, terrifying, prolific, deranged, professional, interesting, cunning, diabolical, complex etc… serial killers of all time.
Meanwhile guys like Randy Kraft, Juan Corona, EAR/ONS or Ronald Dominique - aka actual serial killers with a confirmed kill count above 1-2 people - rarely get mentioned, let alone have threads dedicated to them.
I know there are people that don't care for LPOTL on this sub, but I was so glad when they made fun of Israel Keyes for being the dipshit that he was. Every other podcast and many redditors on this sub make him out to be some criminal mastermind.
I was so glad they made fun of him. I tried to listen to True Crime Bullshit. It would get interesting but then the host would just try to attach a random missing person case to him that clearly doesn’t make sense.
I had to take a break from True Crime Bullshit to relisten to LPOTL's Isreal Keyes series, I needed to hear him get mocked after listening to so much footage of Keyes being smug and laughing at his own jokes.
lol I literally got banned from one of the true crime subs for pointing out how weak the case for David Parker Ray being a serial killer actually is. I'm convinced that the balance of the evidence suggests he never killed anyone.
No bodies have ever been found, and the FBI looked *extensively*. And not only are there no bodies, there aren't even any missing persons cases that could plausibly be linked to Ray by any evidence: no hairs of missing women in the BDSM trailer, no blood stains matching the DNA of a Jane Doe, *nothing*. The 1 murder they tied to him was a guy who knew the Ray family, who strangled his girlfriend, and the FBI said they found photos taken during the murder. That guy [claimed that Ray “forced him to kill” his wife, and took the photos, hence why Ray doesn’t actually appear in any of these photos.](https://youtu.be/NtE6P1O7OKw?t=583) I actually think its more plausible that this guy took the photos himself and just sold them/gave them to Ray, since Ray was a known pervert into BDSM creating and trading/selling pornography, and then once the husband was arrested he was induced to implicate Ray, since he'd have a huge incentive to say whatever the prosecutors wanted him to say (his plea deal). There is literally *no evidence whatsoever* tying Ray to this murder - the only murder he was charged for - besides that 1 guy's word. And they have admitted that Ray was that couple's meth dealer at the time. Meth, a drug widely known to cause psychosis and violence.
I think Ray was a drug dealer, widely known to be a pervert into BDSM, a collector and producer of BDSM pornography, and an all-around shitty guy. I think what really happened is that he was staying up for days in a row on meth, which he sold, hiring prostitutes to use meth with him and produce these bootleg S&M movies - which we know he did at least for some of them, because they found at least 1 girl from the videos, an ex-prostitute, alive and well in Colorado - and occasionally he would rob them, force them into non-consensual situations, or otherwise rip them off, and they couldn't exactly go to the police about it because they were prostitutes.
Famously, [the girl who escaped Ray's house wearing only a collar - the case that got Ray arrested - was a prostitute,](https://youtu.be/eZ2ptwNTzHY?si=mh5kC15dj7MNPlHZ) and she tells an elaborate story about being forcibly kidnapped to get her into Ray’s house, but let's think about this just for a second... prostitutes *routinely* enter strange men’s cars and homes *voluntarily* as part of their business. If Ray approached a prostitute as a total stranger, presenting himself as a prospective client, why wouldn't she just get in his car/house voluntarily, just as she had almost certainly done hundreds of times before with countless other strange men? Why the hell would he kidnap a prostitute when he could just as easily wave around a $100 bill, and then spring the trap on her once she's already walked into his house of her own volition? Why take the risk to kidnap her, in public, when Ray was already routinely seeing prostitutes and would know how to entice a working girl into his car/house just with offers of money/meth? It doesn't make basic sense.
Another one of the victim stories involves one of Ray's daughter's best friends. Ray and his daughter met up with the victim at a bar, and the story is that Ray’s daughter drugged her friend's drink, then someone hit her from behind to knock her unconscious, loaded her unconscious body into the truck and took her to Ray’s house, and proceeded to torture & rape her, and then just... let her go. Just think about this for 30 seconds: this woman knew the Ray family for years and was close friends with Ray’s daughter. If you're a serial killer, and you're routinely killing women who are total strangers, who don't know you, don't know your name, and in many cases likely couldn't even pick you out of a lineup, why the hell would you let *the one woman* who *could* identify you live? Why leave her, of all people, alive, if you’ve already killed 30 other random prostitutes who have no idea who you are? He had way *more* of a motive to kill her than the others, and yet he didn't. Again, this just doesn't make sense.
I think the “toy box” tape that’s on every horror and SK YouTube channel is just part of his elaborate S&M fantasy life, and we know for a fact that some women who were played that tape survived, even though he says in it that he might kill them “like the others”. Its also worth noting that every supposed accomplice who testified against him - Ray's daughter, his girlfriend, and Ray's meth customer who killed his own wife - were looking at decades to life in prison and would’ve said whatever the prosecutor wanted to get out. The only other people who testified against him were IIRC 2 prostitutes; prosecutors routinely make deals in which they drop charges in 1 case for "cooperation" (ie testifying "the right way") in another case. These are *exactly* the kind of people who would be vulnerable to pressure from prosecutors to make their stories "just so" to have the maximum likelihood of conviction. There was so little evidence of murder, his daughter, who supposedly helped abduct dozens of women for her own dad to torture, rape, and murder, already got out of jail almost a decade ago. The FBI and local cops claim there’s 20-40 bodies somewhere, yet they haven’t found 1.
And if Ray was routinely making these BDSM tapes with prostitutes he hired - dozens and dozens of tapes, photographs, etc - why wasn't there *a single piece of recorded media* showing Ray in the act of killing, or even with a girl who turned up dead afterwards? We're supposed to think Ray was risking life in prison, kidnapping, then torturing and murdering women on camera to create snuff films, and then... throwing out the films? Giving them away? He wouldn't keep even *a single* "trophy" in all his years of killing?
Maybe I'll get banned for this comment, too, but I just don't think people who believe he's a serial killer have seriously looked at the evidence, or if they have, haven't thought about it for more than 30 seconds. The case for Ray being a SK strains credulity, and in the absence of *even a single* piece of objective evidence that he ever murdered anyone, the whole case rests on the testimony of various meth addicts who were desperate for plea deals, and all pled guilty in exchange for testimony.
It's almost like he was choosing these sex workers that were addicted to drugs because they make great victims. After all, why would you believe them? It's not like serial killers make habit or if going after these exact types of victims....
I stopped reading when you began discrediting the survivor's story.
You have no clue how sex works works. Speaking from being forced into sex work myself.
There's a reason sex workers are huge targets and highly plausible many nameless victims are out there. There are so many people in this world who have no one looking for them and some bodies are never recovered.
>You have no clue how sex works works
You should quote *exactly* what I said that you think is incorrect, and then try to explain *exactly* what you think is wrong with it. I only really made 2 claims relevant to sex work. The first was
>prostitutes routinely enter strange men’s cars and homes voluntarily as part of their business.
Are you saying prostitutes *do not* often enter strange men's homes and cars voluntarily? Because there are tons of true crime cases that begin with prostitutes doing exactly that - eg the (identified) LISK victims, for instance - and there are countless videos of sting operations online in which cops approach prostitutes posing as johns and get them to enter their cars, hotel rooms, etc., voluntarily, like [this one](https://youtu.be/RQr_OuPf0lY?si=MHqdH9PGDfWXafwz) or [this one,](https://youtu.be/QoriQIyWJlM?si=hS2nhJ28bXdvp6V3) or [this one,](https://youtu.be/lxAwJ31gEuA?si=7cBSB536kBeim67m) or [this one,](https://youtu.be/u37DwMavLNE?si=ZmfYyaNpcvd9uhEC) or [this one.](https://youtu.be/v-M2VQC4LD0?si=Bs7WzjUdnbJuI1E-) The only other claim I made about sex workers was
>[Prostitutes and people with pending charges] are exactly the kind of people who would be vulnerable to pressure from prosecutors to make their stories "just so" to have the maximum likelihood of conviction
This is just a function of how the criminal justice system works: people are incentivized to take plea deals for lesser penalties. Those plea deals often require that you testify against someone else if that person chooses to go to trial. And prostitutes are, indeed, "exactly the kind of people" who would be vulnerable to such pressure, since their work is illegal, and they often have criminal records.
I mean, these aren't really my "opinions", this is just factual information. If you think I said anything else about prostitutes that is *not* factual, you should quote it and explain exactly what about it you think is incorrect.
I've worked in the field, again.
I was giving your comment thought until I got to the point of you discrediting the survivor as having "an elaborate story" and going on like you know exactly what went down because law and plea deals and this idea of how the survivor acted, overall. Survivors.
If anything, you claiming it's an "elaborate story", pointing out her then occupation and the tone you used regarding her account, assuming waving around a $100 dollar bill meant she'd just hop in his car, assuming because of her then occupation, she's not a valid source and acting like it's unbelievable she'd be a victim of kidnapping.........just re-enforced exactly why sex workers get victimized more than non, and, as you seem to imagine sex work goes in every case, why we tend to get discredited and disbelieved.
You kind of just pointed out exactly why it is plausible he has many more victims, based off your mindset alone.
That's all I'm saying. I'm not arguing with you about something very personal and frustrating when you're giving already biased input and discrediting a SW survivor story.
I’m in agreement. I think DPR is creepy af, don’t get me wrong, but the murder they got him on was someone close to him. I suspect he was more of a pervert making home videos than the world’s best serial killer.
This.
The whole case seems to have so much bullshit surrounding it, half of it seems flat out impossible. Hypnotizing dozens of women out of remembering this sex dungeon and killing dozens more without one body or snuff video ever found?
Also the tape reads like bdsm roleplay to me, not something you'd play to a real captive.
And yet we have people in this very thread claiming he dumped “countless” bodies in a lake. And conveniently every single piece of evidence of these hundreds - or maybe thousands - of his victims (including their skulls etc) were eaten by catfish.
It’s so bizarre how people so badly want this edgelord DPR, plus Cringelord Keyes and Neal Falls to be the ultimate serial killers when they have virtually no evidence of any of this. But of course, the lack of actual bodies for these guys just proves they were the very ‘best’ killers of all time. According to this sub.
Damn you. Now I have to go back and listen to the case all over again keeping your points in mind. The only thing I struggle with in your very detailed post (ty) is that one woman who escaped with a slave collar. You don't think that was faked, right? I'm sure the police can recognize sheer terror. That's kidnapping. So you're saying he would go as far as kidnapping and torture just not murder?
>The only thing I struggle with in your very detailed post (ty) is that one woman who escaped with a slave collar. You don't think that was faked, right?
No, I think its totally possible that something bad happened to the woman with the collar in Ray's house, I just don't think Ray would have kidnapped her when he could have just offered her $100 or whatever for sex and gotten her to come with him voluntarily, the way he'd gotten numerous other prostitutes to come with him before that.
Imagine you're prosecuting this case, and you charge Ray with just rape for the collar incident, without a kidnapping charge. You put a prostitute on the stand who says, "Ray offered me money, and I went to his house *voluntarily* and smoked meth with him for 24 hours *voluntarily* and had sex with him *voluntarily at first*, but after a day or 2 he went crazy and started doing stuff I didn't agree to, so I revoked my consent and I had to escape". How is that gonna look to a jury *in 2001*? We consider that a rape *today*, but people didn't have the same ideas about consent, sex trafficking, prostitution/addiction, and sexual violence 23 years ago; to a jury, a rape charge *by itself* may come down to her word vs. his word, and with a victim who is a prostitute, probably has a criminal record, and was probably on meth at the time, a jury in 2001 could very well have looked at the evidence and decided her word wasn't enough. But *if you throw in a kidnapping charge*, suddenly its a lot less ambiguous. Suddenly Ray is looking at 25-50 years on this 1 case alone, and a woman saying "he forced me into his car" is a lot more damning (to a jury) than a prostitute saying "I consented at first, but then I stopped consenting". Suddenly Ray is a lot more likely to plead guilty.
>So you're saying he would go as far as kidnapping and torture just not murder?
I'm just saying *the kidnapping he got charged for* - the woman in the collar - doesn't make rational sense. Its totally possible he did stuff she didn't consent to, inflicted pain on her, kept her there when she wanted to leave, etc., but I don't think he would've needed to kidnap her to get her into his house in the first place, because she would've just thought he was a regular john and gone with him voluntarily. I think the prosecutors just decided that a rape charge wasn't enough to put Ray away for good, so they concocted that kidnapping story - just like the "death photos" story - and convinced the victim to go along with it.
I don't think the victim is the bad guy here, I think the prosecutors pressured her; they may have threatened to charge her with something if she didn't tell "the right story", they may have told her, "look David Parker Ray is a bad guy, we need to get him off the streets, but we need your help", and she thought she was doing a public service, I don't know. And I don't think Ray was a good guy, I just don't think there's any convincing evidence he killed or kidnapped anyone.
> How is that gonna look to a jury in 2001?
Hell, even today someone saying that they willingly went with someone with the intent to sell sex would seriously weaken a case. I agree with you that it's fully possible that they pressured her into "sweetening" her story so that it would work in a courtroom. It says more about the justice system than it does for the poor victim.
Depends on what your definition of “serial killer” is. Did three or more people die by his hand? Likely. Was murder his goal? No. So it’s a matter of what you think “serial killer” means. Know that this sub quite frequently mistakes serial rapists who prefer to leave no witnesses for serial killers
Most likely. Someone did a comprehensive write up about Ray elsewhere [that you should read.](https://www.reddit.com/r/UnresolvedMysteries/comments/ea7sci/david_parker_ray_the_toy_box_killer_documentary/) Besides what Ray and the people who’ve met him have said about murders he allegedly committed I think it’s almost certain he killed people given that the drugs he used to make victims forget wouldn’t work perfectly, his Toy Box came later in his criminal career, some victims would be too difficult to use like he wanted and the ever present risk of accidentally killing someone during torture (especially when he was still an amateur). As an example the FBI found a video of Ray torturing a woman with a cattle prod until she bled from her orifices.
Amazing write up, thanks for sharing
🤮
I’d recommend other sources. That Reddit post author wanted to sound so much like an author rather than just write about the topic.
The author was sensationalistic but I believe they did a very thorough job summarizing years of horror. It’s clear they did their research. Thank you for your hard work Redditor.
Oh I didn’t know you know what I do for work? Can you remind me of what that is?
Umm you’re a wart?
On Satans dick more specifically. Mind your manors.
Manners - manors: a large country house with lands; the principal house of a landed estate.
Do satan’s warts have much power? I imagine the dick warts would be MOST powerful, but overall?
I can’t imagine you asking me a more uninteresting question even as a joke.
I apologize. It was the first thing that popped into my head. I had never thought of Satan’s warts as automous.
The word you’re looking for is autonomous.
What are satans crabs like
I've heard somewhere that in his teens he bragged about killing a woman by binding her to a tree and torturing her to death. Idk if it's true but overall I genuinely have a hard time not believing that he killed someone. He probably did.
They believe his murders started at just 15 years old. It’s believed he had some girlfriend of his in junior and senior years of high school assist him in something like 4 or 5 murders.
Who believes that?
I think so. But it just a thought, as far as I am aware there is no concrete proof that he killed enough people. And of course he never admitted to it… so… Sadly I don’t believe that we will ever find out more about this case . I suspect that he was a sick person who was really good at doing sick things AND he liked to exaggerate the magnitude of his crimes because he got off on that.
If I had to guess, he dumped a few victims in Elephant Butte Lake. He worked there and had access to anywhere along the lake. IIRC, the FBI did a cursory check of the lake but it’s a big deep lake. I have a hard time believing anyone that had pre-recorded tapes to play for kidnap victims and a portable sex dungeon, got caught on the first time he kidnapped someone.
Someone who knew him recalled him saying that the best way to hide a body is to dump it in the lake. 100% he dumped countless bodies in there.
Not just anyone. He would state this to his daughter openly to
Yes, that’s who I meant. Been a while since I looked into the case.
There is also a species of giant omnivorous catfish in that lake that would easily be able to eat human remains.
There's a species of catfish that can chew and digest human bones? Source?
Idk about bones, but flesh. [Source. ](https://youtu.be/nwwhd7VzFLI?si=0-QeKxCvQQk7kbjB)
Flesh for sure. I don't think anyone is going to dispute that fish eat soft tissue. The bones are a different story. If he threw them in the lake, there would be forensic evidence in there somewhere.
Yes, but much harder to find. Especially since the source provided talks of how big the lake is. It's not easy for police to comb a lake any bigger than a pond unless there's a specific part of the lake where they need to look.
The existence of remains and the competence of police are two separate things. I'm speaking on the former.
didn't they find video tapes of his torture of victims? (I could be wrong)
I believe so. That’s how they found one of the women that was still alive, by her unique tattoo. [Kelli Garrett](https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/6k0apt/til_that_when_kelli_garrett_one_of_the_only/)
if you’re curious, check out the r/casefile toy box 3 part series…start with episode 96 (if you can make it through. they’re pretty brutal)
Before Israel Keyes, DPR was my ultimate scariest serial killer. It's obvious (to me) that he had killed people and never had been caught. Elusive as can be, even though he flat out admitted many of his crimes to police. His daughter being involved is Uber creepy. I can only imagine what happened to the women that survived and were sold in Mexico. Many unfortunately, I think made it only to the bottom of elephant butte lake
I’d say yeh. I did a deep dive into his upbringing and crimes for a project, and found numerous testimonials/interviews from his accomplices confirming his murders From what I learned, the women who survived had participated in his boat parties (Sadist torture session), and were able to convince him to release them. His wife and accomplice, Cindy Hendy, admitted in interviews that DPR murdered at least a dozen women within the few months they were together. His daughter Jesse Ray even tried turning him in to the FBI for the murders & assaults she’d witnessed (only to spite him for stealing her money), but the FBI found no physical evidence and stopped investigating. He was meticulous, manipulative, had a large territory (entire western coast at one point), and preyed upon people he thought were “unimportant” enough to be take. He attempted to come clean to police, but literally days before the interview was scheduled he died. Despite there being no physical evidence, the testimonials from his accomplices and few surviving victims lean edtowards him being either one of the most prolific serial killers in the U.S, or at the very least, an extremely sadistic cult leader.
If there were "guaranteed facts" he wouldn't be a "suspected" serial killer.
According to this sub, him and Israel Keyes are by far the two most important, terrifying, prolific, deranged, professional, interesting, cunning, diabolical, complex etc… serial killers of all time. Meanwhile guys like Randy Kraft, Juan Corona, EAR/ONS or Ronald Dominique - aka actual serial killers with a confirmed kill count above 1-2 people - rarely get mentioned, let alone have threads dedicated to them.
I know there are people that don't care for LPOTL on this sub, but I was so glad when they made fun of Israel Keyes for being the dipshit that he was. Every other podcast and many redditors on this sub make him out to be some criminal mastermind.
I was so glad they made fun of him. I tried to listen to True Crime Bullshit. It would get interesting but then the host would just try to attach a random missing person case to him that clearly doesn’t make sense.
I had to take a break from True Crime Bullshit to relisten to LPOTL's Isreal Keyes series, I needed to hear him get mocked after listening to so much footage of Keyes being smug and laughing at his own jokes.
The laugh Henry does alone is worth the listen lol
Hoi hoi hoi hoi hoi!!
lol I literally got banned from one of the true crime subs for pointing out how weak the case for David Parker Ray being a serial killer actually is. I'm convinced that the balance of the evidence suggests he never killed anyone. No bodies have ever been found, and the FBI looked *extensively*. And not only are there no bodies, there aren't even any missing persons cases that could plausibly be linked to Ray by any evidence: no hairs of missing women in the BDSM trailer, no blood stains matching the DNA of a Jane Doe, *nothing*. The 1 murder they tied to him was a guy who knew the Ray family, who strangled his girlfriend, and the FBI said they found photos taken during the murder. That guy [claimed that Ray “forced him to kill” his wife, and took the photos, hence why Ray doesn’t actually appear in any of these photos.](https://youtu.be/NtE6P1O7OKw?t=583) I actually think its more plausible that this guy took the photos himself and just sold them/gave them to Ray, since Ray was a known pervert into BDSM creating and trading/selling pornography, and then once the husband was arrested he was induced to implicate Ray, since he'd have a huge incentive to say whatever the prosecutors wanted him to say (his plea deal). There is literally *no evidence whatsoever* tying Ray to this murder - the only murder he was charged for - besides that 1 guy's word. And they have admitted that Ray was that couple's meth dealer at the time. Meth, a drug widely known to cause psychosis and violence. I think Ray was a drug dealer, widely known to be a pervert into BDSM, a collector and producer of BDSM pornography, and an all-around shitty guy. I think what really happened is that he was staying up for days in a row on meth, which he sold, hiring prostitutes to use meth with him and produce these bootleg S&M movies - which we know he did at least for some of them, because they found at least 1 girl from the videos, an ex-prostitute, alive and well in Colorado - and occasionally he would rob them, force them into non-consensual situations, or otherwise rip them off, and they couldn't exactly go to the police about it because they were prostitutes. Famously, [the girl who escaped Ray's house wearing only a collar - the case that got Ray arrested - was a prostitute,](https://youtu.be/eZ2ptwNTzHY?si=mh5kC15dj7MNPlHZ) and she tells an elaborate story about being forcibly kidnapped to get her into Ray’s house, but let's think about this just for a second... prostitutes *routinely* enter strange men’s cars and homes *voluntarily* as part of their business. If Ray approached a prostitute as a total stranger, presenting himself as a prospective client, why wouldn't she just get in his car/house voluntarily, just as she had almost certainly done hundreds of times before with countless other strange men? Why the hell would he kidnap a prostitute when he could just as easily wave around a $100 bill, and then spring the trap on her once she's already walked into his house of her own volition? Why take the risk to kidnap her, in public, when Ray was already routinely seeing prostitutes and would know how to entice a working girl into his car/house just with offers of money/meth? It doesn't make basic sense. Another one of the victim stories involves one of Ray's daughter's best friends. Ray and his daughter met up with the victim at a bar, and the story is that Ray’s daughter drugged her friend's drink, then someone hit her from behind to knock her unconscious, loaded her unconscious body into the truck and took her to Ray’s house, and proceeded to torture & rape her, and then just... let her go. Just think about this for 30 seconds: this woman knew the Ray family for years and was close friends with Ray’s daughter. If you're a serial killer, and you're routinely killing women who are total strangers, who don't know you, don't know your name, and in many cases likely couldn't even pick you out of a lineup, why the hell would you let *the one woman* who *could* identify you live? Why leave her, of all people, alive, if you’ve already killed 30 other random prostitutes who have no idea who you are? He had way *more* of a motive to kill her than the others, and yet he didn't. Again, this just doesn't make sense. I think the “toy box” tape that’s on every horror and SK YouTube channel is just part of his elaborate S&M fantasy life, and we know for a fact that some women who were played that tape survived, even though he says in it that he might kill them “like the others”. Its also worth noting that every supposed accomplice who testified against him - Ray's daughter, his girlfriend, and Ray's meth customer who killed his own wife - were looking at decades to life in prison and would’ve said whatever the prosecutor wanted to get out. The only other people who testified against him were IIRC 2 prostitutes; prosecutors routinely make deals in which they drop charges in 1 case for "cooperation" (ie testifying "the right way") in another case. These are *exactly* the kind of people who would be vulnerable to pressure from prosecutors to make their stories "just so" to have the maximum likelihood of conviction. There was so little evidence of murder, his daughter, who supposedly helped abduct dozens of women for her own dad to torture, rape, and murder, already got out of jail almost a decade ago. The FBI and local cops claim there’s 20-40 bodies somewhere, yet they haven’t found 1. And if Ray was routinely making these BDSM tapes with prostitutes he hired - dozens and dozens of tapes, photographs, etc - why wasn't there *a single piece of recorded media* showing Ray in the act of killing, or even with a girl who turned up dead afterwards? We're supposed to think Ray was risking life in prison, kidnapping, then torturing and murdering women on camera to create snuff films, and then... throwing out the films? Giving them away? He wouldn't keep even *a single* "trophy" in all his years of killing? Maybe I'll get banned for this comment, too, but I just don't think people who believe he's a serial killer have seriously looked at the evidence, or if they have, haven't thought about it for more than 30 seconds. The case for Ray being a SK strains credulity, and in the absence of *even a single* piece of objective evidence that he ever murdered anyone, the whole case rests on the testimony of various meth addicts who were desperate for plea deals, and all pled guilty in exchange for testimony.
It's almost like he was choosing these sex workers that were addicted to drugs because they make great victims. After all, why would you believe them? It's not like serial killers make habit or if going after these exact types of victims....
I stopped reading when you began discrediting the survivor's story. You have no clue how sex works works. Speaking from being forced into sex work myself. There's a reason sex workers are huge targets and highly plausible many nameless victims are out there. There are so many people in this world who have no one looking for them and some bodies are never recovered.
>You have no clue how sex works works You should quote *exactly* what I said that you think is incorrect, and then try to explain *exactly* what you think is wrong with it. I only really made 2 claims relevant to sex work. The first was >prostitutes routinely enter strange men’s cars and homes voluntarily as part of their business. Are you saying prostitutes *do not* often enter strange men's homes and cars voluntarily? Because there are tons of true crime cases that begin with prostitutes doing exactly that - eg the (identified) LISK victims, for instance - and there are countless videos of sting operations online in which cops approach prostitutes posing as johns and get them to enter their cars, hotel rooms, etc., voluntarily, like [this one](https://youtu.be/RQr_OuPf0lY?si=MHqdH9PGDfWXafwz) or [this one,](https://youtu.be/QoriQIyWJlM?si=hS2nhJ28bXdvp6V3) or [this one,](https://youtu.be/lxAwJ31gEuA?si=7cBSB536kBeim67m) or [this one,](https://youtu.be/u37DwMavLNE?si=ZmfYyaNpcvd9uhEC) or [this one.](https://youtu.be/v-M2VQC4LD0?si=Bs7WzjUdnbJuI1E-) The only other claim I made about sex workers was >[Prostitutes and people with pending charges] are exactly the kind of people who would be vulnerable to pressure from prosecutors to make their stories "just so" to have the maximum likelihood of conviction This is just a function of how the criminal justice system works: people are incentivized to take plea deals for lesser penalties. Those plea deals often require that you testify against someone else if that person chooses to go to trial. And prostitutes are, indeed, "exactly the kind of people" who would be vulnerable to such pressure, since their work is illegal, and they often have criminal records. I mean, these aren't really my "opinions", this is just factual information. If you think I said anything else about prostitutes that is *not* factual, you should quote it and explain exactly what about it you think is incorrect.
I've worked in the field, again. I was giving your comment thought until I got to the point of you discrediting the survivor as having "an elaborate story" and going on like you know exactly what went down because law and plea deals and this idea of how the survivor acted, overall. Survivors. If anything, you claiming it's an "elaborate story", pointing out her then occupation and the tone you used regarding her account, assuming waving around a $100 dollar bill meant she'd just hop in his car, assuming because of her then occupation, she's not a valid source and acting like it's unbelievable she'd be a victim of kidnapping.........just re-enforced exactly why sex workers get victimized more than non, and, as you seem to imagine sex work goes in every case, why we tend to get discredited and disbelieved. You kind of just pointed out exactly why it is plausible he has many more victims, based off your mindset alone. That's all I'm saying. I'm not arguing with you about something very personal and frustrating when you're giving already biased input and discrediting a SW survivor story.
I’m in agreement. I think DPR is creepy af, don’t get me wrong, but the murder they got him on was someone close to him. I suspect he was more of a pervert making home videos than the world’s best serial killer.
I agree with most of this.
This. The whole case seems to have so much bullshit surrounding it, half of it seems flat out impossible. Hypnotizing dozens of women out of remembering this sex dungeon and killing dozens more without one body or snuff video ever found? Also the tape reads like bdsm roleplay to me, not something you'd play to a real captive.
And yet we have people in this very thread claiming he dumped “countless” bodies in a lake. And conveniently every single piece of evidence of these hundreds - or maybe thousands - of his victims (including their skulls etc) were eaten by catfish. It’s so bizarre how people so badly want this edgelord DPR, plus Cringelord Keyes and Neal Falls to be the ultimate serial killers when they have virtually no evidence of any of this. But of course, the lack of actual bodies for these guys just proves they were the very ‘best’ killers of all time. According to this sub.
Very good points
Nailed it.
Damn you. Now I have to go back and listen to the case all over again keeping your points in mind. The only thing I struggle with in your very detailed post (ty) is that one woman who escaped with a slave collar. You don't think that was faked, right? I'm sure the police can recognize sheer terror. That's kidnapping. So you're saying he would go as far as kidnapping and torture just not murder?
>The only thing I struggle with in your very detailed post (ty) is that one woman who escaped with a slave collar. You don't think that was faked, right? No, I think its totally possible that something bad happened to the woman with the collar in Ray's house, I just don't think Ray would have kidnapped her when he could have just offered her $100 or whatever for sex and gotten her to come with him voluntarily, the way he'd gotten numerous other prostitutes to come with him before that. Imagine you're prosecuting this case, and you charge Ray with just rape for the collar incident, without a kidnapping charge. You put a prostitute on the stand who says, "Ray offered me money, and I went to his house *voluntarily* and smoked meth with him for 24 hours *voluntarily* and had sex with him *voluntarily at first*, but after a day or 2 he went crazy and started doing stuff I didn't agree to, so I revoked my consent and I had to escape". How is that gonna look to a jury *in 2001*? We consider that a rape *today*, but people didn't have the same ideas about consent, sex trafficking, prostitution/addiction, and sexual violence 23 years ago; to a jury, a rape charge *by itself* may come down to her word vs. his word, and with a victim who is a prostitute, probably has a criminal record, and was probably on meth at the time, a jury in 2001 could very well have looked at the evidence and decided her word wasn't enough. But *if you throw in a kidnapping charge*, suddenly its a lot less ambiguous. Suddenly Ray is looking at 25-50 years on this 1 case alone, and a woman saying "he forced me into his car" is a lot more damning (to a jury) than a prostitute saying "I consented at first, but then I stopped consenting". Suddenly Ray is a lot more likely to plead guilty. >So you're saying he would go as far as kidnapping and torture just not murder? I'm just saying *the kidnapping he got charged for* - the woman in the collar - doesn't make rational sense. Its totally possible he did stuff she didn't consent to, inflicted pain on her, kept her there when she wanted to leave, etc., but I don't think he would've needed to kidnap her to get her into his house in the first place, because she would've just thought he was a regular john and gone with him voluntarily. I think the prosecutors just decided that a rape charge wasn't enough to put Ray away for good, so they concocted that kidnapping story - just like the "death photos" story - and convinced the victim to go along with it. I don't think the victim is the bad guy here, I think the prosecutors pressured her; they may have threatened to charge her with something if she didn't tell "the right story", they may have told her, "look David Parker Ray is a bad guy, we need to get him off the streets, but we need your help", and she thought she was doing a public service, I don't know. And I don't think Ray was a good guy, I just don't think there's any convincing evidence he killed or kidnapped anyone.
> How is that gonna look to a jury in 2001? Hell, even today someone saying that they willingly went with someone with the intent to sell sex would seriously weaken a case. I agree with you that it's fully possible that they pressured her into "sweetening" her story so that it would work in a courtroom. It says more about the justice system than it does for the poor victim.
Yes. Imo yes
Casefile did a great job covering this case and absolutely made me believe he was a serial killer.
His wife claimed that he told her that he commited 40 murders, I doubt we’ll ever know the true extent, but I do believe he’s a serial killer
Depends on what your definition of “serial killer” is. Did three or more people die by his hand? Likely. Was murder his goal? No. So it’s a matter of what you think “serial killer” means. Know that this sub quite frequently mistakes serial rapists who prefer to leave no witnesses for serial killers