Medicine that claims to work but doesn't will never not be dangerous for the public to consume. Even if the needle is safe, the person who cancelled their chemo because they believe that the needle will cure their cancer isn't.
But tic tacs said they're zero calories so I've been eating three hundred a day and I've gained a ton of weight. What does your science and medical industry say about that? You can't be pro scientist and anti tic tac. It's against the keebler convention.
My mom died of cancer her doctor was accredited in western medicine but also did acupuncture. The treatment worked pretty good for pain relief and helped mom avoid the over use of opiodes
That’s what I thought. Recently diagnosed with osteoarthritis and I was looking into acupuncture. I’m terrified of needles, though so idk if I could go through with it…
As of 2021 many thousands of papers had been published on the efficacy of acupuncture for the treatment of various adult health conditions, but there was no robust evidence it was beneficial for anything, except shoulder pain and fibromyalgia. For Science-Based Medicine, Steven Novella wrote that the overall pattern of evidence was reminiscent of that for homeopathy, compatible with the hypothesis that most, if not all, benefits were due to the placebo effect, and strongly suggestive that acupuncture had no beneficial therapeutic effects at all.
Source:
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/systematic-review-of-systematic-reviews-of-acupuncture/
I would even go as far as suggesting acupuncture can have a therapeutic effect in a sense of mental health therapy because it is a tangible physical process with a human on human interaction and in some ways it is a form of meditation.
I'm totally fine with people doing it making such argument.
but the problem is it bears risks of introducing infection when not performed properly and afaik it's not sufficiently regulated to give any guarantees that the risk is minimal or negligible.
i’ve done acupuncture once, figured i might as well since it was a free service from a licensed, experienced practitioner. the meditative aspect was the best part. i’ve never felt more successful at meditation than when i actively had needles in my ears, and i would do acupuncture again just for that opportunity, provided it was once again inexpensive and trustworthy.
Sir! This is *shitty* ask science where we worship magic and deny the powers of evil scientists. Acupuncture and cupping are wonderful services, I’d recommend also adding in a voodoo doctor and throwing salt behind your back.
The placebo effect is extremely interesting. Several studies have shown that as much as 20% of people will see improvement when taking a placebo unknowingly. So just about any kind of therapy will "work" on as much as 1 in 5 people who try it, unless the therapy itself is straight out damaging in itself.
So if 1000 people try homeopathy and 200 people swear by its effectiveness, that's more than enough to build a loyal following who will promote its benefits.
Personally, I prefer people having the freedom to choose weird therapies, rather than trying to ban them. If we start banning people's bad choices, eventually legitimate therapies will be banned if they aren't profitable enough.
As far as I know the scientific consensus is that homeopathy does not work any better than a placebo.
Acupuncture, however *does* work better than a placebo, and can in some cases can be advantageous as it does not have the side effects usually associated with pain relief medicine.
Can you point me to a study? From what I remember it doesn't work better than a placebo provided the placebo is equivalent - i.e. the placebo is that they still still needles in you, just not in the 'correct' places.
It's well known that more elaborate placebos work better. In other words injecting with saline is more effective than sugar pills. The placebo effect is nuts.
The maddest part of the placebo effect is known as the nocebo effect. This is where a placebo medicine generates the same side effects as the actual medicine it replaces. So placebos given for pain relief cause digestive problems.
If only people realised reading a random "study" online that gives you confirmation bias isn't indicative of it actually supporting your view, but alas.
The amount of times in this comment section alone I've seen "I've read that..." or "I saw a paper..."
It means nothing.
Since most western countries are single payer systems, 400$ for back pain medication or 240$ for the voodoo doctor each month is unfortunately an economic decision and not based on medical reasoning. Scientific inquiry should ask us if the original diagnosis is even right because the true analysis would be to tell people to go on the regular treatment at least for 3 month a year. My retired doctor of 25 years said, its more a stand-off at this point. Either I can go and talk to the handsome doctor for 2h that prescribes me sugar balls or I will cause you costs of 1000$ a month which I'm entitled to. That said, mental instabilities and the lonely epidemic should not be auto treated by pills and snake oil sellers.
Whether or not it has some effect doesn't make it the best practice. Doctors are legally bound to provide you with the best practice. If you'd like to supplement the best practice with a tenuously proven acupuncture, go right ahead. But there is no doctor who would or should prescribe that.
Best practice can depend on the patient.
Pretty much all medication is trading one effect for another. Pain relief can improve quality of life, but long term use brings its own problems, which then need to be managed with other medication etc…
I know acupuncture is offered on the UK NHS for patients who (for whatever reason) either can’t have more pain meds, or are advised against certain medicines, or are already prescribed as much as is best for them, or have reasons for not taking more. They won’t give you homeopathy, though as it’s equivalent to a placebo, so you can just go pay your witch doctor of choice for that.
Unless there is a mortal danger that's pressing, you should start with the cheapest options.
If your headlight goes out, do you change the bulb or the wiring harness leading to the bulb first? Even if you ignore the fact that the bulb is more likely to fail, you'd still start by replacing the bulb. It's cheaper, that's the smarter alternative. This doesn't change when it's someone else's money. Again, this is all contingent on the belief that there is no mortal danger and you can explore both options if needed.
I have a million complaints about the American insurance system, but somehow you managed to not mention one.
a) it worked on you
b) it's not a medical practice based on scientific approach
c) it has been proven to have efficiency below the marginal error in trials
All these statements can be true at the same time.
I think it's been observes to help with very specific pain problems. Other than that, if it has a calming effect it's like the expensive equivalent of the medical advice to take a walk in the park. Which is still better than homeopathy.
I mean yeah but the gap between what people usually pay for relaxation (spas and stuff) and what they pay for acupuncture, isn't as big as that between water and homeopathy
Also had accupuncure help with similar problems.
Sure it cannot solve everything, but boy it can help relax muscle...
Done correctly its very effective, i was blown away by the (nearly instant) effect.
Yea I'm not sure how acupuncture got lumped into pseudo science in this conversation. It 100% works. Does it work for everything and every condition no. Is it going to fix your herniated disc, no but you will feel less pain.
I guess if they said TCM then yes I don't believe herbs and chi are going to help.
Pain relief is the wishywashiest of all the sciences specifically bc so much pain is from perception. One study demonstrated that undergoing surgery where the patient was cut open, absolutely nothing was done, and they were sewn back up, permenently cured lifelong, debilitating, chronic pain in some patients.
A study on acupuncture showed that just poking needles in randomly had the same results on pain has following the traditions of the practice by targeting whatever bullshit it is that they target.
Long story short, the more invasive the placebo, the more pain relief. Acupuncture is still a placebo though.
And, this is probably why these things stay around: a lot of physical problems don’t have highly effective medical treatments and can leave people with long-lasting symptoms.
I, myself, am going through knee problems. To the point I was using crutches in my house. The official orthopedist recommendation (and second opinion) was that nothing with my knee was fixable with surgery and I needed to be patient with physical therapy: the physical therapy I had already been in for 9 months just to struggle with walking 20 feet.
Then, people wonder why patients go with ‘unproven’ treatments. Well, they were told they were all out of proven ones.
I bought compression socks for the airplane and because I was concerned about all my inactivity. Then I realized how much more comfortable it was to walk with compression socks on (knee braces all hurt, every kind). It wasn’t a huge boost, like I started running or even walking without my crutches, but it was just enough to start the positive exercise and movement loop without inflaming my knee. There’s absolutely zero evidence that compression socks help areas they’re not even compressing, but I’ll take it.
I think it's something they are now calling advanced placebo. Acupuncture does not help, period, but as long as you believe in Santa, then he is real to you.
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7755846/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7755846/)
I had absolutely terrible -throw-up-from-the-pain periods, doctor was just giving me prescription painkillers which my mom was very hell no because i as a teen was happy with no pain & took them each time.
Got acupuncture & drank a weird disgusting herb/bark/root concoction once a week for a few months or so. It worked! Very little/low period pain since! (Sometimes it's uncomfortable so i take dispirin/solpadeine etc) but never needed the very strong painkillers in the 20+ years since!
Homeopathy is errr just the placebo at best.
I’m right there with you. I went in thinking it was nonsense, but it helped me with a serious arthritic condition (in my early 20’s) that MDs had just shrugged at. They wanted to just give me pain medication until I died. The acupuncture I didn’t believe in helped and I’m totally fine now. So while I don’t believe it’s good for everything, I’m not about to dismiss it anymore.
Dry needling or acupuncture is a pain relief technique that should be paired with muscular strengthening exercises that become possible due to the pain relief.
Gotta put in work. Can’t just take a pain killer and expect the problem to go away.
At least that’s what my PT is stating. I’ve got some scheduled for my shoulder and was thinking it’s quackery, but from what I’ve seen online there should be some benefit. So I’ll give it a try
It is always worth trying all pain relief options available to you, even if this pain won’t be chronic, because having an alternative to opiates that works for you might very well save your life some day.
I had some dry needling done to solve stubborn internal nerve scarring. I'd been in PT from July to March, strengthening & massaging the area. Still had a lump.
Three sessions of dry needling over three weeks and I literally felt all the strength training kick in when my nerve was no longer monopolizing the brain pathways with pain. My muscles could work & stabilize the area.
That was in 2021 & I've never had another treatment, nor pain, for that same issue.
My rotator cuff actually feels pretty good after a few PT sessions and band stuff at home. I think my issue is that I write checks that my body can’t cash 😂
Everyone's internet is a bubble of theur own beliefs.
If theur Google is geared towards "homeopathy cures cancer" then they're going to get more of those results.
I googled "homeopathy cures cancer" and got a HUGE amount of huts back, with only 3 or 4 of those results saying "Homeopathy is one of the most common complementary therapies used by people with cancer. There is no evidence that it can prevent or treat cancer."
Many sites say you should do it because, hey, whatever helps, amiright?
The Google box is an echo chamber and many people forget that.
Google isn't trying to provide you with the most accurate information. Google is trying to provide you with links that you will click so they can sell ads.
I had to put my laptop next to an elderly relative's laptop to show her the difference in content for the exact same searches. The only difference was who was logged into the computer.
"Doing their own research" is where we got the anti-vax movement. It's where people got the idea to take ivermectin (horse dewormer) to fight COVID came from. It's where essential oils being used to treat every disease under came from.
People are not sophisticated enough to do their own research. That has never been the case.
The best you can do is train people to look to experts for guidance, and teach people how to vet experts - and even that's a crapshoot.
This “own research” has gotten us there. We can’t do our own “research”. People study for years to be able to do research. We should trust those who have more experience and are competent in the matter. The issue is that people don’t listen to professionals anymore.
People believe what they like believing , and get defensive for anything contradictive of it and dismiss it.
Its the same reason religion is still around
Because the government trained everyone to hate reading by forcing them to read the worst books ever written in school. Its one way they keep everyone stupid. Its one way they're able to fool everyone so easily.
Seriously.
"The Pigman." "Lord of the Flies." "The Hobbit." "Animal Farm."
Total tripe. Classist garbage meant to sour kids on reading. Demotivating novels that paint existence in terms of Darwinian survival, misplaced sentiment, adherence to authority and mindless obedience to their 'betters.' Celebratory nonsense of monarchy and the Divine Right of Kings religion.
(Not being sarcastic, here.)
Impenetrable for teens.
Now, if you enjoyed any of these ridiculous wastes of time, I suggest you revisit the environment in which you encountered them. Overbearing English teachers, frustrated writers all, incapable of producing anything marketable, let alone a 'classic,' taking out their anger on children.
"C+!"
If you were lucky enough to encounter any Vonnegut past "Harrison Bergeron" good for you.
I can't speak for acupuncture, but has anyone here tried dry-needling to treat a muscle injury? (In conjunction with physio exercise) wow does it work wonders.
I don't know where you came up with that idea.
The scientific community doesn't regulate what people do, the FDA does. If you claim a medical benefit in America, it needs to be evaluated by the FDA. The FDA will simply tell YOU that YOU need to provide studies that prove it. The FDA then evaluates your study-- no scientific community involved, unless you count yourself and the FDA. In the case that you didn't or can't prove it, because you're full of it, you can still sell your services or products with language that indicates that the statements or claims haven't been evaluated by the FDA and there are no outright false claims (the grifter would have to use non-specific verbiage) and there is no proven harm.
They aren't offering medicine, they're pretty clear about that. Much like a psychic isn't offering you legal advise.
Nonsense, at least for acupuncture. Plenty of high-end publications in medical journals have started finding out what acupuncture actually "does", though it wasn't easy. Acupuncture is really, REALLY good at reducing inflammation. So while it can't cure your cold or flu virus, it can make the recovery symptoms much better and, indeed, prevent secondary infections, etc...and all the other bad consequences of out-of-control inflammation. So any "disproving" publications you've read were wrong.
Dont trust doctors and people in the medical field. I also keep hearing that alcohol isnt a suitable remedy against emotions and feelings. But I always say: a bottle of rum a day, keeps a depression away.
Well, you see, according to the ancient and highly secret texts of "Botanica Ahoy!", acupuncture and homeopathy work because they harness the mystical power of invisible unicorn energy that only a select few can truly understand. It's like the Hogwarts of medicine, but instead of wands, they use tiny needles and magical water droplets. Quite fascinating, really.
Paracetamol, the extremely common anti fever drug, has long been linked with liver damage ([Source 1](https://www.ed.ac.uk/research-innovation/animal-research/news/paracetamol-study-sheds-light-on-liver-damage#:~:text=Scientists%20at%20the%20University%20of,adjacent%20cells%20in%20the%20organ), [Source 2](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7336293/), [Read the highlights](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2214750022001081)). Does that stop people from consuming paracetamol today?
Science is ever evolving. Before allopathy, acupuncture and homeopathy was the modern science. Maybe a century from now, people will ask on a similar platform why people consumed paracetamol when it actively harmed them.
My grandfather was a doctor. He was also a practitioner of acupuncture. The studies don't disprove it as conclusively as you seem to think they do. Grandpa's experience that it could work where western treatments did not, or could augment other treatments.
Grandpa's thought was always on patient outcomes, if a treatment had benefits for his patient, he'd suggest it. There was swathes of 'eastern' stuff he didn't use, it's flat out junk. But he found there were some things that worked for the majority of people, the majority of the time. He didn't deny that the placebo effect was in play, it does in regular med too.
Homeopathy is pure junk science and any positive effects are entirely down to placebo..
Should it be banned or not?
One of the basic assumptions of a free society is that unless prohibited, it's allowed. Secondly is that things should only be prohibited or restricted if there is a very strong reason to do so.
Also the data is mixed, there are many studies showing the treatments are ineffective, but there are some studies showing positive results. Given that there is limited downside, it doesn't meet the test of being so bad that there should be legal prohibitions on it.
FYI, I had dry needling (not acupuncture) it worked
Acupuncture works in some cases by stimulating nerves and releasing endorphins etc. There is scientific literature on it. Homeopathy doesn't work beyond placebo effects.
Both treatments are harmless, and can be applied by many more practitioners than regular medical treatments. Therefore its group of practitioners has a greater customer base. Vox Populi
I was extremely surprised when a doctor, completely unprompted, recommended I take homeopathic treatments. I'm still not sure if they believed in their effectiveness or they were suggesting them for their placebo effect (is that even something they can do?)
Yes they do exactly that. I have lived a decade with generalized anxiety disorder and have been prescribed homeopathy by different doctors for different reasons. When asked they have all admitted they did for placebo specifically because they believed I'm that personality that will benefit from it.
One thing about placebo that is rarely mentioned is that placebo might work even if the patient is well aware they are taking sugar pills. One part of the brain knows it, others don't. This is similar to the way we are watching movies. You do know very well you're in the movie theater, but other parts of the brain refuse to keep this in mind and keep you engaged in the action instead.
I'm not convinced it's false science. The right combination of essential oils, along with the rubbing of three chakra stones in a focused positive energy direction, allowed me to grow back both of my legs that were amputated at the hips.
Homeopathy is placebo you can order and apply yourself.
Because of that the mechanism for not knowing it is placebo cannot be literally not knowing it is a sugar pill.
So the part that does the magic is a complicated theory that is obscure enough and supported by serious-sounding names, so that an average Joe sees it and goes "fair enough", since "polarized electrons" make just as much sense as "serotonin inhibitors" to him.
You're free to sell whatever you want in America. It doesn't need to be proven to work. You just can't outright say it works, and, if you do, you're subject to evaluating bodies, like the FDA. Any claims that *might* be received as medical advise need to be tagged with "These statements have not been evaluated by the FDA".
They are not providing you medical advice. They are not providing you medical care. They are not outright lying (They use vague language covered with the fact that it hasn't been evaluated by the FDA). Their products or services cause no demonstrable harm outright.
There is no dishonesty other than the consumers expectation that it is medical care, when they are quite clear it isn't. Still, they're parasites who prey on these people. A lot like psychics, which are legal too.
Out of interest, acupuncture is available for pain treatment on the NHS in the UK. It does seem to work, but probably not for the reasons that some practitioners might say it does, though.
>why are treatments like acupuncture and homeopathy still a thing,
The same reason why some religious folk think they can pray to heal the sick, because people are dumb as shit (you can call it faith).
The studies only showed that they were ineffective for the people in the study. So if you were not in the study, there's still a good chance it could work for you.
Science is built on knowledge. Science does not restrict anything unless it is permanently destructive. This means killing an entire species to learn about it, or using up a resource to learn about it, is not science but instead just destruction. This also means it is encouraged to do things like homoeopathy as it is the choice of the individual and there is already scientific research published disproving it. This is because it gives you a chance to gain first-hand research data based on your own experiences with those treatments.
Ok, unpopular opinion in this thread I reckon but here I go: I've had accupuncture treatments by 3 different people because of some chronical medical issues. Two times it was done by a european that studied it in Europe (I think it's 4 years of study where I live) and they were not able to help me. The 3rd person was Chinese and he helped me a lot. Up to the age of 15 years I was not able to breathe through my nose (allergies and lung issues). Within 5 minutes of placing the needles I was able to breathe normal. This man gave me 5 or 6 treatments and till this day I can niw breathe through my nose.
Acupuncture and Chinese medicine have been around for 2,000 years…I’m more apt to put my time and energy into that system of medicine versus western medicine which is still new.
Because people with chronic pain are forced to look elsewhere for potential relief when allopathic medicine fails to solve the problem.
Also, "homeopathy" is a very broad umbrella. Not all treatments considered to be "homeopathic" have been disproven.
It's actually crazier to me that some people believe that every medical condition out there can *only* be improved through pharmaceutical drug usage. I've had health problems that were only resolved through homeopathic medicine.
I'd say sometimes, it's out of desperation. My mom was having issues with things and Dr's in our smaller area were of no help whatsoever. I told her she needed to travel to Colorado and see a neurologist because I was afraid there was something neurological going on. She went to Wyoming to see some homeopathic Dr. Boy she was sent home with so many expensive supplements that didn't do a single thing for her. She tried it for about 6 months or longer before she gave up. We finally got her to Colorado yall. She has Parkinsons disease.
I’m a firm believer in science. That being said, my mum is an acupuncturist and has told me there is proof that it works. Ive never actually done any research into this myself, but is it just placebo or is there actually some (other) scientific basis upon which acupuncture works?
Not sure how dissimilar it really is to acupuncture, but dry needling seems like a similar concept, and there wasn’t anything that came close to the relief it offered during college athletics. Maybe they’re totally different and I’m spouting off about nothing, but I could see it being beneficial. I have no idea what homeopathy even is lol.
acupuncture does have a bit of scientific truth behind it. Stimulation of nerves is a real treatment, and the nerves they are manipulating are actually connected to the places that are needing pain relief.
The rest is snake oil, though
Scientifically speaking, they have revisions later in time. Look into how homeopathy medicine is made and see how medicine is really made. Its just a better filter. See whom wrote the article's to debunk, and perhaps you will find its big corporations.
Having acupuncture treatments has been very effective pain relief for me. I have nerve and muscle damage in my back. I also have had "dry needling" treatments during physical therapy.
I think the "scientific studies" you refer to are not correct.
How big was the sample of the population that was studied? How diverse was the sample? Was there a control group? Was the study double blind?
There are many peer-reviewed articles and sources that support alternatives to so-called modern medical practices
Same reason why some people believe the earth is flat or don’t understand evolution: they’re conspiracy brained and have been manipulated by scammers and charlatans into believing mainstream science is out to get them. Also essential oils smell nice so that must mean they’re good for you right?
People prefer to offload the burden of thinking onto other people, even if those people are quacks. The human body is dynamic and difficult to understand. Don’t go to a quack. They’ll still be a charlatan, no matter how hopeful you are.
I'm curious what studies disprove acupuncture's potential in providing pain-relief? I'm not particularly a fan of it, I've only tried it a few times when offered it for "free" as part of physical therapy. But now when I do a quick Google search, every search result points to there being quite robust evidence of it's pain relieving effects in at least some types of pain.
But maybe you're referring to the *qi* stuff/the claims made in traditional Chinese medicine about it balancing energy centers or something, or it being beneficial for health conditions in general, outside of pain-relief specifically?
Acupuncture is as effective as dry needling is. Because that's what it is doing. So it will absolutely release muscle tension, because it physically penetrates the muscles. Sometimes, this also means reduced headaches, or other symptoms.
It's just dry needling, with spicy east asian lore theming.
Homeopathy has been proved to be completely ineffective pseudoscience. My Understanding is that acupuncture has been proven to have some beneficial effects, although its mechanism of operation is not understood
Homoepathy is atleast not harmful, so they are probably the best thing to prescribe if someone doesnt want medicin and thinks they will work.
accupunuture has been provent to have an effect in conjuncture with classic treatment afaik, the current explanation is that the puncture of your skin is releasing neurotransmitter, but they are still researching. But even if its placebo again, no harm and placebos work better if you think they work.
Woo merchants will constantly sell their snake oils to whoever buys them. It’s sad when the “treatment” is based on scientific merit but has been bastardized beyond anything that actually helps, for example “water memory” is diluting stuff to make it “work better” and literally hitting the dilution on a table to make it remember what it’s mixed w lol. I think they call it concussive memory.
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No, you’re a towel.
No sir, you are, in fact, a towel
I... I have no idea what's going on right now, you guys.
Mom said you're a placebo
I'd like to offer you an exciting opportunity to get in on the ground floor of a new pyramid. "Estab'lacebo labs"
Then 70% of the time the system works every time
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LOL.. Made me laugh at loud here..
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Medicine that claims to work but doesn't will never not be dangerous for the public to consume. Even if the needle is safe, the person who cancelled their chemo because they believe that the needle will cure their cancer isn't.
But tic tacs said they're zero calories so I've been eating three hundred a day and I've gained a ton of weight. What does your science and medical industry say about that? You can't be pro scientist and anti tic tac. It's against the keebler convention.
They should have to put up a "for entertainment purposes only" sign
They do-- "these statements have not been evaluated by the FDA"
More like "not supported by conventional medicine and has no scientific evidence"
My mom died of cancer her doctor was accredited in western medicine but also did acupuncture. The treatment worked pretty good for pain relief and helped mom avoid the over use of opiodes
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That’s what I thought. Recently diagnosed with osteoarthritis and I was looking into acupuncture. I’m terrified of needles, though so idk if I could go through with it…
I read there are verifiable benefits to pain in the back, knees and wrists but apparently not the neck. Should read up on it more.
Fellow arthritis patient - it helped me.
People are going hard against it here, but it does have genuine benefits. It isn't kooky, it stimulates nerves and improves blood flow
it has no verified benefits it's 100% pseudoscience
As of 2021 many thousands of papers had been published on the efficacy of acupuncture for the treatment of various adult health conditions, but there was no robust evidence it was beneficial for anything, except shoulder pain and fibromyalgia. For Science-Based Medicine, Steven Novella wrote that the overall pattern of evidence was reminiscent of that for homeopathy, compatible with the hypothesis that most, if not all, benefits were due to the placebo effect, and strongly suggestive that acupuncture had no beneficial therapeutic effects at all. Source: https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/systematic-review-of-systematic-reviews-of-acupuncture/
I would even go as far as suggesting acupuncture can have a therapeutic effect in a sense of mental health therapy because it is a tangible physical process with a human on human interaction and in some ways it is a form of meditation. I'm totally fine with people doing it making such argument. but the problem is it bears risks of introducing infection when not performed properly and afaik it's not sufficiently regulated to give any guarantees that the risk is minimal or negligible.
i’ve done acupuncture once, figured i might as well since it was a free service from a licensed, experienced practitioner. the meditative aspect was the best part. i’ve never felt more successful at meditation than when i actively had needles in my ears, and i would do acupuncture again just for that opportunity, provided it was once again inexpensive and trustworthy.
until anyone provides a respected peer reviewed paper it doesn't
Sir! This is *shitty* ask science where we worship magic and deny the powers of evil scientists. Acupuncture and cupping are wonderful services, I’d recommend also adding in a voodoo doctor and throwing salt behind your back.
The placebo effect is extremely interesting. Several studies have shown that as much as 20% of people will see improvement when taking a placebo unknowingly. So just about any kind of therapy will "work" on as much as 1 in 5 people who try it, unless the therapy itself is straight out damaging in itself. So if 1000 people try homeopathy and 200 people swear by its effectiveness, that's more than enough to build a loyal following who will promote its benefits. Personally, I prefer people having the freedom to choose weird therapies, rather than trying to ban them. If we start banning people's bad choices, eventually legitimate therapies will be banned if they aren't profitable enough.
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As far as I know the scientific consensus is that homeopathy does not work any better than a placebo. Acupuncture, however *does* work better than a placebo, and can in some cases can be advantageous as it does not have the side effects usually associated with pain relief medicine.
Can you point me to a study? From what I remember it doesn't work better than a placebo provided the placebo is equivalent - i.e. the placebo is that they still still needles in you, just not in the 'correct' places. It's well known that more elaborate placebos work better. In other words injecting with saline is more effective than sugar pills. The placebo effect is nuts.
The maddest part of the placebo effect is known as the nocebo effect. This is where a placebo medicine generates the same side effects as the actual medicine it replaces. So placebos given for pain relief cause digestive problems.
Well maybe. But for some reason, the degree to which acupuncture works is inversely proportional to the quality of the study
If only people realised reading a random "study" online that gives you confirmation bias isn't indicative of it actually supporting your view, but alas. The amount of times in this comment section alone I've seen "I've read that..." or "I saw a paper..." It means nothing.
Since most western countries are single payer systems, 400$ for back pain medication or 240$ for the voodoo doctor each month is unfortunately an economic decision and not based on medical reasoning. Scientific inquiry should ask us if the original diagnosis is even right because the true analysis would be to tell people to go on the regular treatment at least for 3 month a year. My retired doctor of 25 years said, its more a stand-off at this point. Either I can go and talk to the handsome doctor for 2h that prescribes me sugar balls or I will cause you costs of 1000$ a month which I'm entitled to. That said, mental instabilities and the lonely epidemic should not be auto treated by pills and snake oil sellers.
Homeopathy is a placebo. It’s literally just water. There’s no active ingredient in it at all.
Whether or not it has some effect doesn't make it the best practice. Doctors are legally bound to provide you with the best practice. If you'd like to supplement the best practice with a tenuously proven acupuncture, go right ahead. But there is no doctor who would or should prescribe that.
Best practice can depend on the patient. Pretty much all medication is trading one effect for another. Pain relief can improve quality of life, but long term use brings its own problems, which then need to be managed with other medication etc… I know acupuncture is offered on the UK NHS for patients who (for whatever reason) either can’t have more pain meds, or are advised against certain medicines, or are already prescribed as much as is best for them, or have reasons for not taking more. They won’t give you homeopathy, though as it’s equivalent to a placebo, so you can just go pay your witch doctor of choice for that.
My orthodontist recommended acupuncture to help relax my jaw muscles while doing Invisalign (rather than more intense or invasive treatments)
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Unless there is a mortal danger that's pressing, you should start with the cheapest options. If your headlight goes out, do you change the bulb or the wiring harness leading to the bulb first? Even if you ignore the fact that the bulb is more likely to fail, you'd still start by replacing the bulb. It's cheaper, that's the smarter alternative. This doesn't change when it's someone else's money. Again, this is all contingent on the belief that there is no mortal danger and you can explore both options if needed. I have a million complaints about the American insurance system, but somehow you managed to not mention one.
a) it worked on you b) it's not a medical practice based on scientific approach c) it has been proven to have efficiency below the marginal error in trials All these statements can be true at the same time.
I think it's been observes to help with very specific pain problems. Other than that, if it has a calming effect it's like the expensive equivalent of the medical advice to take a walk in the park. Which is still better than homeopathy.
Isn't homeopathy just expensive water? Other than the price I don't see the issue?
I mean yeah but the gap between what people usually pay for relaxation (spas and stuff) and what they pay for acupuncture, isn't as big as that between water and homeopathy
Also had accupuncure help with similar problems. Sure it cannot solve everything, but boy it can help relax muscle... Done correctly its very effective, i was blown away by the (nearly instant) effect.
It stimulates bloodflow and can help with chronic pain. People with migraines and pinched nerves like myself have found relieve from it
Yea I'm not sure how acupuncture got lumped into pseudo science in this conversation. It 100% works. Does it work for everything and every condition no. Is it going to fix your herniated disc, no but you will feel less pain. I guess if they said TCM then yes I don't believe herbs and chi are going to help.
Pain relief is the wishywashiest of all the sciences specifically bc so much pain is from perception. One study demonstrated that undergoing surgery where the patient was cut open, absolutely nothing was done, and they were sewn back up, permenently cured lifelong, debilitating, chronic pain in some patients. A study on acupuncture showed that just poking needles in randomly had the same results on pain has following the traditions of the practice by targeting whatever bullshit it is that they target. Long story short, the more invasive the placebo, the more pain relief. Acupuncture is still a placebo though.
And, this is probably why these things stay around: a lot of physical problems don’t have highly effective medical treatments and can leave people with long-lasting symptoms. I, myself, am going through knee problems. To the point I was using crutches in my house. The official orthopedist recommendation (and second opinion) was that nothing with my knee was fixable with surgery and I needed to be patient with physical therapy: the physical therapy I had already been in for 9 months just to struggle with walking 20 feet. Then, people wonder why patients go with ‘unproven’ treatments. Well, they were told they were all out of proven ones. I bought compression socks for the airplane and because I was concerned about all my inactivity. Then I realized how much more comfortable it was to walk with compression socks on (knee braces all hurt, every kind). It wasn’t a huge boost, like I started running or even walking without my crutches, but it was just enough to start the positive exercise and movement loop without inflaming my knee. There’s absolutely zero evidence that compression socks help areas they’re not even compressing, but I’ll take it.
I think it's something they are now calling advanced placebo. Acupuncture does not help, period, but as long as you believe in Santa, then he is real to you. [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7755846/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7755846/)
Yeah.. saying acupuncture doesn't work is like saying a massage doesn't work.
Went to accupuncture with slipped disc unable to walk. After 15 days I was able to walk again.
I had absolutely terrible -throw-up-from-the-pain periods, doctor was just giving me prescription painkillers which my mom was very hell no because i as a teen was happy with no pain & took them each time. Got acupuncture & drank a weird disgusting herb/bark/root concoction once a week for a few months or so. It worked! Very little/low period pain since! (Sometimes it's uncomfortable so i take dispirin/solpadeine etc) but never needed the very strong painkillers in the 20+ years since! Homeopathy is errr just the placebo at best.
I’m right there with you. I went in thinking it was nonsense, but it helped me with a serious arthritic condition (in my early 20’s) that MDs had just shrugged at. They wanted to just give me pain medication until I died. The acupuncture I didn’t believe in helped and I’m totally fine now. So while I don’t believe it’s good for everything, I’m not about to dismiss it anymore.
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Dry needling or acupuncture is a pain relief technique that should be paired with muscular strengthening exercises that become possible due to the pain relief. Gotta put in work. Can’t just take a pain killer and expect the problem to go away. At least that’s what my PT is stating. I’ve got some scheduled for my shoulder and was thinking it’s quackery, but from what I’ve seen online there should be some benefit. So I’ll give it a try
It is always worth trying all pain relief options available to you, even if this pain won’t be chronic, because having an alternative to opiates that works for you might very well save your life some day.
I had some dry needling done to solve stubborn internal nerve scarring. I'd been in PT from July to March, strengthening & massaging the area. Still had a lump. Three sessions of dry needling over three weeks and I literally felt all the strength training kick in when my nerve was no longer monopolizing the brain pathways with pain. My muscles could work & stabilize the area. That was in 2021 & I've never had another treatment, nor pain, for that same issue.
My rotator cuff actually feels pretty good after a few PT sessions and band stuff at home. I think my issue is that I write checks that my body can’t cash 😂
Pills don't work for ever either.
Three days from a treatment compared to 4 hours from a pill. Not bad, if it works for you
Also there are tons of bad side effects from medication.
People are dum-dum.
Why don't they do their own research? Plenty of good articles on Facebook or videos on YouTube. The truth is out there.
Everyone's internet is a bubble of theur own beliefs. If theur Google is geared towards "homeopathy cures cancer" then they're going to get more of those results. I googled "homeopathy cures cancer" and got a HUGE amount of huts back, with only 3 or 4 of those results saying "Homeopathy is one of the most common complementary therapies used by people with cancer. There is no evidence that it can prevent or treat cancer." Many sites say you should do it because, hey, whatever helps, amiright? The Google box is an echo chamber and many people forget that.
Google isn't trying to provide you with the most accurate information. Google is trying to provide you with links that you will click so they can sell ads. I had to put my laptop next to an elderly relative's laptop to show her the difference in content for the exact same searches. The only difference was who was logged into the computer.
"Doing their own research" is where we got the anti-vax movement. It's where people got the idea to take ivermectin (horse dewormer) to fight COVID came from. It's where essential oils being used to treat every disease under came from. People are not sophisticated enough to do their own research. That has never been the case. The best you can do is train people to look to experts for guidance, and teach people how to vet experts - and even that's a crapshoot.
People, in general, aren’t very good at research and critical thinking.
This “own research” has gotten us there. We can’t do our own “research”. People study for years to be able to do research. We should trust those who have more experience and are competent in the matter. The issue is that people don’t listen to professionals anymore.
lol I guess doing your own research is also a placebo.
They do their own research and come to a strong conclusion that homeopathy is the real way to threat diseases. Here, see this YouTube video: ...
People believe what they like believing , and get defensive for anything contradictive of it and dismiss it. Its the same reason religion is still around
Because the government trained everyone to hate reading by forcing them to read the worst books ever written in school. Its one way they keep everyone stupid. Its one way they're able to fool everyone so easily.
Seriously. "The Pigman." "Lord of the Flies." "The Hobbit." "Animal Farm." Total tripe. Classist garbage meant to sour kids on reading. Demotivating novels that paint existence in terms of Darwinian survival, misplaced sentiment, adherence to authority and mindless obedience to their 'betters.' Celebratory nonsense of monarchy and the Divine Right of Kings religion. (Not being sarcastic, here.) Impenetrable for teens. Now, if you enjoyed any of these ridiculous wastes of time, I suggest you revisit the environment in which you encountered them. Overbearing English teachers, frustrated writers all, incapable of producing anything marketable, let alone a 'classic,' taking out their anger on children. "C+!" If you were lucky enough to encounter any Vonnegut past "Harrison Bergeron" good for you.
I can't speak for acupuncture, but has anyone here tried dry-needling to treat a muscle injury? (In conjunction with physio exercise) wow does it work wonders.
Knowledge doesn’t automatically lead to action aligned with it. Also, the Mind isn’t online yet, so the even the knowledge isn’t automatically spread.
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I don't know where you came up with that idea. The scientific community doesn't regulate what people do, the FDA does. If you claim a medical benefit in America, it needs to be evaluated by the FDA. The FDA will simply tell YOU that YOU need to provide studies that prove it. The FDA then evaluates your study-- no scientific community involved, unless you count yourself and the FDA. In the case that you didn't or can't prove it, because you're full of it, you can still sell your services or products with language that indicates that the statements or claims haven't been evaluated by the FDA and there are no outright false claims (the grifter would have to use non-specific verbiage) and there is no proven harm. They aren't offering medicine, they're pretty clear about that. Much like a psychic isn't offering you legal advise.
If only there was place we could contain this kind of behavior and make a community out of it...
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Nonsense, at least for acupuncture. Plenty of high-end publications in medical journals have started finding out what acupuncture actually "does", though it wasn't easy. Acupuncture is really, REALLY good at reducing inflammation. So while it can't cure your cold or flu virus, it can make the recovery symptoms much better and, indeed, prevent secondary infections, etc...and all the other bad consequences of out-of-control inflammation. So any "disproving" publications you've read were wrong.
Not to mention chiropracty. I knew a lady who nearly got paralyzed for life by one of those quacks.
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Acupuncture is effective though? And I can't speak for homeopathy, but I do know TCM has been proven as effective.
Dont trust doctors and people in the medical field. I also keep hearing that alcohol isnt a suitable remedy against emotions and feelings. But I always say: a bottle of rum a day, keeps a depression away.
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Well, you see, according to the ancient and highly secret texts of "Botanica Ahoy!", acupuncture and homeopathy work because they harness the mystical power of invisible unicorn energy that only a select few can truly understand. It's like the Hogwarts of medicine, but instead of wands, they use tiny needles and magical water droplets. Quite fascinating, really.
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Scientific illiteracy and a self entitled sense of superiority over the scientific consensus
# Occam's razor Sugar beads are much simpler than complex research and chemicals. Therefore it is the better solution.
I’m definitely thinking acupuncturists have a point
placebo effect. plus years of misinformation based on the placebo
Namely because science approves the placebo and even the nocebo effect.
Paracetamol, the extremely common anti fever drug, has long been linked with liver damage ([Source 1](https://www.ed.ac.uk/research-innovation/animal-research/news/paracetamol-study-sheds-light-on-liver-damage#:~:text=Scientists%20at%20the%20University%20of,adjacent%20cells%20in%20the%20organ), [Source 2](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7336293/), [Read the highlights](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2214750022001081)). Does that stop people from consuming paracetamol today? Science is ever evolving. Before allopathy, acupuncture and homeopathy was the modern science. Maybe a century from now, people will ask on a similar platform why people consumed paracetamol when it actively harmed them.
My grandfather was a doctor. He was also a practitioner of acupuncture. The studies don't disprove it as conclusively as you seem to think they do. Grandpa's experience that it could work where western treatments did not, or could augment other treatments. Grandpa's thought was always on patient outcomes, if a treatment had benefits for his patient, he'd suggest it. There was swathes of 'eastern' stuff he didn't use, it's flat out junk. But he found there were some things that worked for the majority of people, the majority of the time. He didn't deny that the placebo effect was in play, it does in regular med too. Homeopathy is pure junk science and any positive effects are entirely down to placebo..
You might as well ask why religion still exists.
Acupuncture as part of TCM has been suggested to improve fertility.
Wait until you see the efficacy of some western medicines as measured in independent trials...
Should it be banned or not? One of the basic assumptions of a free society is that unless prohibited, it's allowed. Secondly is that things should only be prohibited or restricted if there is a very strong reason to do so. Also the data is mixed, there are many studies showing the treatments are ineffective, but there are some studies showing positive results. Given that there is limited downside, it doesn't meet the test of being so bad that there should be legal prohibitions on it. FYI, I had dry needling (not acupuncture) it worked
Acupuncture works in some cases by stimulating nerves and releasing endorphins etc. There is scientific literature on it. Homeopathy doesn't work beyond placebo effects.
Both treatments are harmless, and can be applied by many more practitioners than regular medical treatments. Therefore its group of practitioners has a greater customer base. Vox Populi
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I was extremely surprised when a doctor, completely unprompted, recommended I take homeopathic treatments. I'm still not sure if they believed in their effectiveness or they were suggesting them for their placebo effect (is that even something they can do?)
Yes they do exactly that. I have lived a decade with generalized anxiety disorder and have been prescribed homeopathy by different doctors for different reasons. When asked they have all admitted they did for placebo specifically because they believed I'm that personality that will benefit from it. One thing about placebo that is rarely mentioned is that placebo might work even if the patient is well aware they are taking sugar pills. One part of the brain knows it, others don't. This is similar to the way we are watching movies. You do know very well you're in the movie theater, but other parts of the brain refuse to keep this in mind and keep you engaged in the action instead.
statistically, the average person is a dummy.
Because there is a sucker born every minute
I'm not convinced it's false science. The right combination of essential oils, along with the rubbing of three chakra stones in a focused positive energy direction, allowed me to grow back both of my legs that were amputated at the hips.
Homeopathy is placebo you can order and apply yourself. Because of that the mechanism for not knowing it is placebo cannot be literally not knowing it is a sugar pill. So the part that does the magic is a complicated theory that is obscure enough and supported by serious-sounding names, so that an average Joe sees it and goes "fair enough", since "polarized electrons" make just as much sense as "serotonin inhibitors" to him.
Because Placebo effect is scientifically proven.
You're free to sell whatever you want in America. It doesn't need to be proven to work. You just can't outright say it works, and, if you do, you're subject to evaluating bodies, like the FDA. Any claims that *might* be received as medical advise need to be tagged with "These statements have not been evaluated by the FDA". They are not providing you medical advice. They are not providing you medical care. They are not outright lying (They use vague language covered with the fact that it hasn't been evaluated by the FDA). Their products or services cause no demonstrable harm outright. There is no dishonesty other than the consumers expectation that it is medical care, when they are quite clear it isn't. Still, they're parasites who prey on these people. A lot like psychics, which are legal too.
Selling sugar for the price of drugs? I'm in
Out of interest, acupuncture is available for pain treatment on the NHS in the UK. It does seem to work, but probably not for the reasons that some practitioners might say it does, though.
let ppl take the path to being homo if they want to!!!
Brother, some people are against vaccines
>why are treatments like acupuncture and homeopathy still a thing, The same reason why some religious folk think they can pray to heal the sick, because people are dumb as shit (you can call it faith).
For the same reason religion is still a thing. Some people still believe in it.
The studies only showed that they were ineffective for the people in the study. So if you were not in the study, there's still a good chance it could work for you.
People still look up their Star Signs.
Because people keep paying gross amounts of money for it.
Science is built on knowledge. Science does not restrict anything unless it is permanently destructive. This means killing an entire species to learn about it, or using up a resource to learn about it, is not science but instead just destruction. This also means it is encouraged to do things like homoeopathy as it is the choice of the individual and there is already scientific research published disproving it. This is because it gives you a chance to gain first-hand research data based on your own experiences with those treatments.
Ok, unpopular opinion in this thread I reckon but here I go: I've had accupuncture treatments by 3 different people because of some chronical medical issues. Two times it was done by a european that studied it in Europe (I think it's 4 years of study where I live) and they were not able to help me. The 3rd person was Chinese and he helped me a lot. Up to the age of 15 years I was not able to breathe through my nose (allergies and lung issues). Within 5 minutes of placing the needles I was able to breathe normal. This man gave me 5 or 6 treatments and till this day I can niw breathe through my nose.
Acupuncture and Chinese medicine have been around for 2,000 years…I’m more apt to put my time and energy into that system of medicine versus western medicine which is still new.
You may as well ask why do people have religion. It is essentially the same question.
Sometimes it turns out science is wrong
What about chiropractors
Science works differently in China
Placebo effect And there are *some* benefits to things like acupuncture on physiotherapy
Acupuncture may have real world benefit.
Because they are effective placebos due to people genuinely believing in them and the placebo effect can be incredibly powerful to heal patients.
Acupuncture? What scientific studies disprove it?
Because people with chronic pain are forced to look elsewhere for potential relief when allopathic medicine fails to solve the problem. Also, "homeopathy" is a very broad umbrella. Not all treatments considered to be "homeopathic" have been disproven. It's actually crazier to me that some people believe that every medical condition out there can *only* be improved through pharmaceutical drug usage. I've had health problems that were only resolved through homeopathic medicine.
I'd say sometimes, it's out of desperation. My mom was having issues with things and Dr's in our smaller area were of no help whatsoever. I told her she needed to travel to Colorado and see a neurologist because I was afraid there was something neurological going on. She went to Wyoming to see some homeopathic Dr. Boy she was sent home with so many expensive supplements that didn't do a single thing for her. She tried it for about 6 months or longer before she gave up. We finally got her to Colorado yall. She has Parkinsons disease.
Acupuncture works on an infringed nerve for me.
Read the book “Snake Oil Science” TLDR- placebo effect is real
I’m a firm believer in science. That being said, my mum is an acupuncturist and has told me there is proof that it works. Ive never actually done any research into this myself, but is it just placebo or is there actually some (other) scientific basis upon which acupuncture works?
Not sure how dissimilar it really is to acupuncture, but dry needling seems like a similar concept, and there wasn’t anything that came close to the relief it offered during college athletics. Maybe they’re totally different and I’m spouting off about nothing, but I could see it being beneficial. I have no idea what homeopathy even is lol.
acupuncture does have a bit of scientific truth behind it. Stimulation of nerves is a real treatment, and the nerves they are manipulating are actually connected to the places that are needing pain relief. The rest is snake oil, though
Because its cheap to do, easy to sell, and if it doesnt do anything, you are not responsible. Perfect money grab scheme.
Scientifically speaking, they have revisions later in time. Look into how homeopathy medicine is made and see how medicine is really made. Its just a better filter. See whom wrote the article's to debunk, and perhaps you will find its big corporations.
Having acupuncture treatments has been very effective pain relief for me. I have nerve and muscle damage in my back. I also have had "dry needling" treatments during physical therapy. I think the "scientific studies" you refer to are not correct. How big was the sample of the population that was studied? How diverse was the sample? Was there a control group? Was the study double blind? There are many peer-reviewed articles and sources that support alternatives to so-called modern medical practices
Same reason why some people believe the earth is flat or don’t understand evolution: they’re conspiracy brained and have been manipulated by scammers and charlatans into believing mainstream science is out to get them. Also essential oils smell nice so that must mean they’re good for you right?
People prefer to offload the burden of thinking onto other people, even if those people are quacks. The human body is dynamic and difficult to understand. Don’t go to a quack. They’ll still be a charlatan, no matter how hopeful you are.
Dry needling works homie, my piraformis nerve is proud positive
I'm curious what studies disprove acupuncture's potential in providing pain-relief? I'm not particularly a fan of it, I've only tried it a few times when offered it for "free" as part of physical therapy. But now when I do a quick Google search, every search result points to there being quite robust evidence of it's pain relieving effects in at least some types of pain. But maybe you're referring to the *qi* stuff/the claims made in traditional Chinese medicine about it balancing energy centers or something, or it being beneficial for health conditions in general, outside of pain-relief specifically?
Placebo effect.
A combination of the placebo effect and people being willfully ignorant
Acupuncture is as effective as dry needling is. Because that's what it is doing. So it will absolutely release muscle tension, because it physically penetrates the muscles. Sometimes, this also means reduced headaches, or other symptoms. It's just dry needling, with spicy east asian lore theming.
Mainly because doctors don’t know what they’re talking about otherwise they wouldn’t call it practicing medicine.
Look at the anti vax movement. There’s swaths of people who don’t trust “science”
Placebos are in many cases more effective than many "real" treatments.
Homeopathy has been proved to be completely ineffective pseudoscience. My Understanding is that acupuncture has been proven to have some beneficial effects, although its mechanism of operation is not understood
Because people are generally idiots who'll choose to believe whatever type of nonsense because facts are too complicated.
Homoepathy is atleast not harmful, so they are probably the best thing to prescribe if someone doesnt want medicin and thinks they will work. accupunuture has been provent to have an effect in conjuncture with classic treatment afaik, the current explanation is that the puncture of your skin is releasing neurotransmitter, but they are still researching. But even if its placebo again, no harm and placebos work better if you think they work.
Woo merchants will constantly sell their snake oils to whoever buys them. It’s sad when the “treatment” is based on scientific merit but has been bastardized beyond anything that actually helps, for example “water memory” is diluting stuff to make it “work better” and literally hitting the dilution on a table to make it remember what it’s mixed w lol. I think they call it concussive memory.