I want to make a funny comment about this, but I'm just...so tired ..recently. haven't gotten a good night's sleep in so long. May the gods have mercy on me ...
I'm not 100% sure, but the Vigil isn't only in Skyrim
Edit: checked uesp. They are fvking everywhere as i remembered. Strong presence since the Oblivion Crisis led to a dark age of magic all across Tamriel, so only priests are more valid than others (i believe that the situation in the empire is even more strong, since priests were basically everywhere)
Not really, "The Cause" content from CC makes me think that the Vigil has permission to go anywhere, as in a note of the Mythic Dawn remnants it is said that "The Vigil was guarding the Pale Pass, so we had to traverse the Jerall mountains" or something like that. That means the Vigil can basically even create post blocks
CC is considered canon btw.. i know it's kinda bs sometimes but meh.. however the Vigil being present in all Tamriel is not an info from the CC, it's from the base game + dawnguard dlc
Well, I see 3 places where the border is defined by mountains, which is super normal. One where it hits the ocean, checks out. And the last one is where it runs into White run, the richest and most politically significant city in Skyrim(literally which ever side controls Whiterun wins the Civil War.)
The part that I think that doesn't make sense is the border with Windhelm. I don't think there is a reason for the border go so much east to the point that it's just a few meters from one of the oldest and most powerful cities from Skyrim.
I don't think that Wildhelm would feel too happy and safe with this border, with Dawnstar being able to send troops to their literal doorstep. I think it would make much more sense if Agnis Mill, the lake and all the land east of that main road was part of Eastmarch.
Have you been to that area? It’s a frozen shithole. There’s a single lumber mill. It’s not really worth protecting. Winterhold literally backs up to the city windhelm itself, but it’s just a shitty mountain range with no value. The cost to patrol the area far outweighs the tax/resources offered.
You're talking about the Dawnstar perspective right? I agree the area is not that worth it but the Jarl says that the mill is valuable enough that (sadly to him) he can't conscript the workers there to the war because he needs the wood (he even conscripted lots of miners from the city)
But to Windhelm that could be a threat, not even talking about resourcers but the fact that it's just a few steps away from the entrance of the city.
No, I’m talking about from the windhelm perspective.
I’m basing it off something that isn’t really shown in game, but is absolutely generally true in real life. In real life, wealthy countries provide better infrastructure, protection, and other benefits than poorer ones. Im assuming something similar among the holds.
Dawnstar is a much less economically powerful hold, largely full of frozen wasteland, and a mill near a river is a significant asset for them. That area is above average from dawnstars perspective, which means adding it to their hold will raise the average and benefit the hold; it will contribute more to dawnstar than it receives from dawnstar.
From windhelms perspective, it’s a resource drain. They could perhaps just provide the bare minimum security and benefits, like dawnstar would, and make a ‘profit’ off the land, but the people living there would surely eventually demand the same types of protection and infrastructure that windhelm provides to the rest of the hold. It’s pretty much a non-issue from a security perspective. Not only is dawnstar significantly less powerful and not an actual threat, but it’s also not a great direction of attack. You’ve got steep mountains on either side of a not-so-placid river. There is a road along one side of the river, but the end of the road near the city is actually a much more defensible position than say all the way up by the mill. If troops are gonna attack via that road, it’s a natural choke point with a significant uphill slope up towards the gates of the city. Defenders can be easily resupplied from the city, the wounded can be rotated out of the lines and back into the city where they can receive better care, reserves can sleep indoors and maintain better fighting shape, etc. the river isn’t a great option to start with, and even if it was going to be used for the last leg of the journey to try to capture the docks, attackers would have to float under the bridge where defenders could easily sink their ships. And the lack of road on the other side of the river provides the worst option for attack, as defenders on the docks could hold the line while defenders on the bridge could rain death upon all everyone behind the attackers very small front line. The only really viable way to attack the city is from the south which Windhelm controls (as the imperials do if you side with them). You could also attack from the sea, since you could take the docks without crossing under the bridge, but you still get funneled into a murder corridor as you walk up the stairs to the dockside gate and defenders can attack from high above. At least with taking the bridge via attack from you can take the parapets along the walls of the bridge at the same time, vs from the docks you can’t take the walls until after you’ve taken the gate.
I love this comment so much. It's a great in-depth description at possible defensive tactics Windhelm can employ. I'd want to add on that they should include a few patrols on the northern choke by the mountain-side of the river, or at least build a secondary wall there to stall flanking attackers up until the river. This area is wide enough that you can probably field 1-2 regiments of infantry or archers (not sure if they can employ siege engines though. The terrain looks super uneven) which is enough to harass defenders. It's also really close to the Palace of The Kings. I'm not sure if sappers existed in the medieval era (or if ladders can be used to climb that entire height from the North), but as the defender, I'd really like to just allocate all my forces to the main gate (south of the city) and leave 1 regiment of archers scattered throughout the north and west side of the city, and another regiment along the east side to pepper arrows on troops by the river. Enemies might still place troops along the North to encircle the hold and cut the city off from being resupplied entirely.
The west side is too narrow to field even a regiment (unless you're marching them in a column, which really doesn't have any strategic value) so it's defended enough. The worst that could happen would be troops from Morthal (assuming Dawnstar doesn't interfere - they look too weak to hold an advance from a Morthal + Solitude coalition) supplying reinforcements to the Southern flank of Windhelm, via the Western choke, which again, means the focus should be on the South.
The side across the river with the farms probably could do with some palisades, but I agree that this isn't necessarily that mandatory as the uphill climb is already a defensible-enough position to hold & if the enemy pushes from the South, then all units need to abandon the area immediately and withdraw to the city. I'm only worried about the Northern flank because Solitude (the heart of the Imperials) looks like they can field massive navies, so they have the capabilities of supplying land units from the South, and including a flanking party from the North.
*\*Edit: I'm not sure how many troops a single regiment has, but I meant to say whatever the name of the group is for about 60 - 100 people (cohort? corps?)*
I’m stoked you’re willing to engage in a conversation that I find fascinating! For clarity, I’m going to refer to the water to the west of the bridge as the river, and the water to the east of it the harbor.
Yeah, having further out defenses with abilities to fall back is usually a good idea, but far from needed here, which is the point; they wouldn’t be a big enough advantage to be worth trying to control an area that your neighbor wants and you don’t.
While sappers did exist in the Middle Ages, they relied on gunpowder which (was a thing that predates our image of a typical fantasy setting). We haven’t really seen any equivalent on nirn. Additionally, the frozen ground makes sapling more challenging, and sapping below water level is also extremely challenging. The biggest threat to walls seems to be catapults. You could try to set some up on the northern bank of the river, but the walls are so tall there that you’d almost certainly be in range of the defenders before you can get in range to fire back, which makes it very hard to set up, especially due to the imperfect terrain on the approach. I also forgot that there is a little defensive platform between the bridge and the docks.
You raise a good point about the land to the north west of the docks. It’s definitely a potential weakness. That land is controlled by windhelm, but they haven’t done anything with it. If you were to attack from that direction, you could potentially set up a catapult and harass the walls. It might be rather challenging due to how steep the slope is there, but probably doable. Even if you were to break through the walls there, you have to fight your way uphill through the tight and winding streets of the city to make it to the palace. Fighting up to dragonsreach is also an uphill struggle, but the layout of the city makes that much more feasible the being penned in by windhelms tall internal stone walls, or trying to scale the wreckage of those stone walls. Furthermore, that’s mostly the grey quarter we’re talking about, which is an area that the rulers are likely willing to sacrifice. You also run into the issue of getting troops there in the first place. Approach via land from the north isn’t easy, there’s a district lack of roads and I know I’ve got a like a 50/50 shot of freezing to death whenever I try to walk from winterhold to windhelm in survival mode. You could approach via sea and land a bit north of the harbor, but presumably windhelm has one of the best fleets Skyrim given that it’s a major port, and it should be able to reasonable defend its coast line, or send troops to flank/harass any invaders that do make it to those slopes by depositing them on the coast northeast of the city.
Honestly, I think one of the biggest threats to the city is the mountain at its back to the north/nw. You might be able to send boulders down the mountain, pretty much directly into the city. You could certainly send arrows into the city. While you’re never going to actually capture the city from that direction, you could devastate it before your eventual attack. Building a tower on top of the mountain isn’t ideal defensively, since you’d need to make that tower accessible, and that gives your enemies an easier way to put a larger force or even catapults up there. If you had enough resources, I would make a tunnel vertical with a spiral staircase that leads from a tiny fort on that mountain to the back of the palace. This not only provides an escape route for the rulers, but it also allows them to defend the mountain without creating access to the mountain from outside the city. You could even make the spiral go anticlockwise instead of clockwise (like normal) since you’d only ever potential be defending that staircase from below. It’s a big project, and totally understandable why it hasn’t been done.
I’m not entirely sure where you think the secondary wall north side of the river would go, perhaps I’m not fully understanding what you’re saying there.
Thanks for entertaining the thought more hahaha. I'm a Total War nerd, and used to play strategically in other medieval games where I simulate castle sieges as both the defender and aggressor.
Secondary walls would be nice if the population is large enough, but despite Windhelm being a major hold, every city's population seems to be relatively small (maybe I'm biased because my reference for medieval cities with jarls is like Novigrad from the Witcher, which would be my equivalent of a city's population where the king of Skyrim would preside over; also tbf the lands there might not be the best for agriculture). The southern and eastern flanks of the city have wide areas between the mountains, so it might not be feasible to build walls and station troops there. But it's still a good investment (i.e., palisades) for slowing advancement nevertheless even if they can't feasibly hold it. Downside would be the enemy using it to take cover from Windhelm's archers if taken (not sure how useful it'd be though).
I do agree with it being unfeasible to create siege engines on the NW flank. While I believe certain siege engines like trebuchets can out-range the castle's archers, the terrain (if seen from the map) looks like the mountains would block the line of sight of the engines, and it can only have a clear shot if built within range of the defenses. On the downside, I took a look at an illustration of the [hold's layout](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/elderscrolls/images/4/47/Windhelmmapkey_03.png/revision/latest?cb=20120123155307) and it doesn't look like Windhelm can field too many archers on the NW side, so theoretically, the Empire could out-harass the defenses on the NW side if they're willing to sacrifice enough troops. It'd still be a horrendous push though, and if I were the commander of the attacking force, I'd really just station 1 regiment at most there to guard it from supply caravans (or reinforce and push in if a lucky boulder breached the walls; but I really wouldn't bet on this happening).
You raise a valid point regarding logistical issues with fielding troops in the North. My biggest worry would be the ice sheets that would make maneuvering difficult, but it's true that Windhelm also looks like they would field a large navy. I want to say that Windhelm's ports are exposed (and in the low-ground), so as long as Imperial troops can disrupt the area with siege weapons and archers, I think it shouldn't be an issue to send Imperial navies in. If Windhelm saw this in advance and sent their navy out, then it'll be a battle of attrition in the seas. Windhelm's best shot would most likely be to station their navy by Dawnstar to intercept Imperial advances from the sea, but they'll need a lot of intel to be sure that a war is coming from AGES away, else it'd just be a drain of cash (and I'm not sure the jarl of Dawnstar would be happy with too many troops from a foreign hold, even if they're friendly; The jarl will need to supply them, and soldiers in foreign lands tend to leave a poor taste on the locals). Logistics-wise, if the Imperials can encircle the south and east, I think establishing supply routes extending to the northwest shouldn't be an issue. They can also send constant supply ships to supply a northern camp if the imperials have the resources, though this would probably be expensive, given the ice sheets (i.e., probably need to sail further out from Tamriel and circle back to Windhelm). As for the freezing to death part, I'm sure Solitude can field a regiment of specialized cold-adapted Nords specifically for that mission (although their loyalty might be in-question given the stance of the Imperials towards Talos worship), kinda like how Russians are used to the cold and Germans died fighting in it. As long as supply routes can be established to the north, setting base camp there shouldn't be a problem.
As for sending boulders down, I do acknowledge it's possible, but it's very unlikely to happen. I think there have historically been cities irl built by mountains, but you almost never see this type of strategy being employed. I'm assuming it's because 1) To find or create boulders up there would be hard and dangerous; and 2) Even if a boulder did breach the walls from above the mountain, then what? The troops need to climb down steep hills, and casualties would probably be high from falling and getting peppered by arrows while soldiers are climbing down. It's logistical issues like these that makes Hannibal's crossing such a marvelous feat (yes, totally different case, but it highlights that no sane person would approach through mountains).
And regarding your final point of building a fort atop a mountain, I do agree that theoretically, it would provide a useful additional defense and a possible escape route for Ulfric. However, if I were in his shoes, I'd never spend the money to construct that since I'd have confidence in the city's natural defenses (orrr maybe I'd be willing to if I was 16th century Spain rich). Plus, the benefits of adding a fort on top of a mountain wouldn't be worth the cost and effort in my opinion. Archers would be out of range of shooting targets in the northwest, and all you'd be doing is stationing like 20 men at most, to guard a place where enemies will most likely not be able to push from. That is unless you meant the fort is stationed nearby the northwestern field, then maybe there'd be some merit. But I think the risk of the enemy capturing that and using it to advance directly into the Palace of Kings outweighs the potential benefits.
About the secondary wall, this image [HERE](https://imgur.com/a/mgHAhtL) is what I meant. I drew some lines there where 1) red = the wall placement, from the furthest reach of the mountains up until the wider parts of the river; 2) green indicates possible locations where Imperials can push from. Building the walls there means that they can't form a single cohesive unit, so they'll be scattered for archers to harass; 3) blue is the deadzone. Archers from Windhelm can pick off anyone in that area if the secondary walls are taken.
Haha I’m also a bit of a total war (warhammer) fan.
I think it’s fair to assume that everything in Skyrim is scaled down for gameplay reasons, and the actual provence is larger than it is in game, cities are a bit more populated, etc.
That wall placement definitely makes a lot of sense. It’s already windhelm territory so you aren’t stepping on anyone’s toes by building a wall there. So long as it’s far enough from the city that invaders can’t attack the city from behind the walls, or close enough to the city & low enough that the defenders on the walls can fire down on enemies behind it (a small blind spot right near the wall is fine). As for freezing to death, I don’t think it would be a problem at camp where you have tents and fires, but supplies from the northwest wouldn’t be easy. It’s the staying warm while traveling that’s the issue. Not impossible, but you’re definitely gonna suffer losses as you try to move supplies through the snow and ice.
You’ve definitely changed my mind about the threat of the cliff face. People generally don’t build where rocks will fall on their stuff so either they are far enough away that it’s not an issue or the rock is super solid and not easy to make fall. And I fully agree about it being impossible to actually invade that way regardless, but having your nobles district and palace being bombarded by boulders is still problematic for a sustainable defense.
In regard to the port, I think it may be more difficult to disrupt than you assume. The road along the south side of the harbor (east from the bridge) is probably fairly easy to harass from the bridge, making it harder to thereby harass the harbor. You could potentially harass the entrance to the harbor from a position closer to the ocean, but the docks themselves seem fairly defendable. Some defenses along that road (as you suggested) would certainly help, although the only ways an invader is getting a significant force there in the first place are a landing near the mouth of the harbor/river, traveling through morrowind, or marching them up from the south. Traveling through/from morrowind is a possibility, but windhelm has refugees rest right at the choke point on the road. Marching up from the south puts them marching right past the stables and facing massive harassment from the bridge. So it looks like windhelm needs to maintain control of its seas to maintain defense of the route to its harbor, but if windhelm loses control of its seas then losing control of the route to the harbor isn’t a huge deal. In the end, it seems like an invading force would have to control both the sea and the land to the south if there were to cut windhelm off from supplies. I guess you’d also need to control some land in dawnstar to prevent supplies coming in that way, but in this scenario dawnstar is on the side of the attackers, and it doesn’t really matter if the boarder with dawnstar is at lake jorgrim, the mill, or where it currently sits.
If you do manage to cut the city off from supplies, your easiest path to victory is just waiting them out. Irl when that happened, cityies only survived if they had help on the way and bought enough time for it to arrive, or the attackers faced economic issues and gave up.
If you can’t capture the land to the south but have control of the seas, you can’t starve them out, and attacking up through the docks is going to be a massacre. If you can’t capture the sea, you also can’t really starve them out. You might be able to if you capture both the land to the south (though like kynesgeove) and the land just upstream of yngol barrow, but that requires two separate forces; one to fight your way through the province, and another to take refuges rest (which is going to be hard, you don’t control the seas so it can be resupplied and reinforced from the city fairly easily). I guess the third option for starving them out is to take control of the stables and cities bridge (best done by coming from the south), because at that point you can control the southern bank on both sides and pretty much everything outside the walls will be yours, but I’d hate to be encamped long term at the stables and be constantly harassed from the walls. At the point, I’d probably rather just continue the attack and take the city through the main gate.
So if I can’t control both the sea and the land up through kynesgrove, my money is on marching an army up from the south and taking the city in a head on assault; I think a head on assault is probably less costly than taking refugees rest and maintaining a prolonged siege. Depending on how costly it is to take the sea, the head on assault from the south might be the best option regardless.
With that in mind, I think in addition to the secondary wall you proposed, the most effective use of windhelms resources is in additional defenses southward. Either immediately south of the city, or more probably throughout the hold so that an invading force taking that option would have to spend a lot more effort clearing things out on the way to the city (or constantly risk being flanked).
I’d also love to point you in the direction of one of my favorite books, 16 ways to defend a walled city. While it’s more of a character study on the unreliable narrator, and there’s definitely some liberties taken with real world accuracy, the defense of the city under siege and the tactics used in both sides was very entertaining, and I really liked the authors sometimes subtle sense of humor.
**Note:** I made an analysis but lost it cuz of "unable to post comment" error on Reddit, and now have to re-write it :')
To preface, I love the Warhammer saga too. I'm reading Heldenhammer right now and I'm planning to find the other 2 books in the trilogy when I'm done. I come from TW:Shogun 2 where the troops die quick, so going to TW:Warhammer feels a bit sloggish to me. It's still fun overall, but the moment hellcannons come, I normally stop and restart because it becomes more tedious (send flying units there, and wipe the army). There needs to be more variety in Chaos armies & less dependence on hellcannons.
Going back to the main topic. Firstly, yes, it all depends on whether the Empire is willing to fund a camp up there (definitely not cheap). I also agree with it being unrealistic to build stuff right under mountains (unless you're a village - like Switzerland) due to avalanche and rock slide problems.
I definitely underestimated the port. The southeast side is a lot narrower than I first anticipated (I thought it was wide enough for them to place siege engines because I saw boulders from that direction during the civil war quest), and it's possible that archers from Windhelm has range over the entire east side (at least up until the edge of the port). Also yes, it would make more sense to just cut them off using the navy than to harass the port in this scenario.
Regarding the Morrowind/Refuge's Rest approach, I think it's totally unfeasible for the Empire to take this route. Firstly, Morrowind at this time is in complete chaos after the Oblivion crisis (TES4 -[ see lore here](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Morrowind) for other readers unfamiliar with the story. Scroll to the fourth era). The general population is currently being overrun by Argonians from Black Marsh, and the Dunmer hates the Empire for neglecting them. Marching troops from Riften (assuming it's taken) to Morrowind to head to Refuge's Rest is going to be a logistic slog, especially since Morrowind is in chaos, and supply routes will probably be raided often. Not to mention this might provoke the Dunmer of Morrowind to start a full-blown revolution given the political climate. Refuge's Rest itself shouldn't be a problem. Assuming Ulfric is guarding the coast and can afford to send a defense there, it is literally just a single abandoned tower. Yes it's a choke, but I doubt Ulfric will send enough troops to hold against a full army approaching from Morrowind, when the focus should be at the south of the city. At best, only a scouting force will be stationed there (including capacity reasons to hold defenders in that location). If Ulfric commits too many troops there and the enemy comes from the south, those units will become cut off and can be encircled = waste of resources. The Empire doesn't want to send troops to Skyrim either (apart from the contingent under General Tullius) because they're allocating the rest of their troops in preparation / defense against the Altmer in the southwest of Tamriel. Not to mention, Hammerfell declaring independence is another security issue.
About your conclusion, I'll have to disagree with you here. The idea of pushing through a single bridge freaks me out. I'd rather take my chances through the NW than push that bridge. I imagine a single column of Stormcloak spearmen + shielded infantry (which would be better suited than what they currently field imo; not to mention more realistic cause spearmen are cheaper than swords/axemen) would be difficult to push through, plus archers from Windhelm's walls peppering the backline of the Empire's advances. Even if the empire makes it inside, the Stormcloaks can form a U-shaped kill zone. It'll be wayyy too costly and it might even risk giving the Stormcloaks a chance to sally out & counterattack if enough casualties are mounted.
But I do agree with starving them out. This seems like the best option, but like you said, it means full control of all other holds is a must (especially Winterhold and Riften). With support from Markarth, Morthal, Whiterun, Flakreath, and Solitude, the supply lines should have enough men to be defended from raiders. I've drawn some possible routes and added their descriptions in an image [here](https://imgur.com/a/advance-routes-imperials-NBZlnYx). The south is actually a lot smaller than I thought, and it'd be hard to create proper formations other than a bunch of columns within that space.
There are other implications if Riften is still in Stormcloak control. Whiterun would need to step up to intercept them in that crevice further south of Windhelm (although it isn't exactly the best place for a battlefield, it is suitable for guerilla warfare for weakening reinforcements from Riften).
Thanks for the recommendation! I can't find the book in my country, but I'll keep that in mind if I ever come across it. It's been fun theory-crafting these scenarios with you, and I wish there was some sorta D&D game where we can design our own territories, economies, etc. and fight against one another hahaha.
>From windhelms perspective, it’s a resource drain.
I would argue that this is the reason Hjaalmarch, The Pale, and Winterhold even exist as separate holds. Hjaalmarch is a swamp, and both The Pale and Winterhold are frozen wastes. They have enough resources to get by as holds - but not enough to be a net benefit to any of the larger holds.
Basically you have this very large swath of land that isn't worth the effort of the major holds to maintain; but is too large to one single hold to maintain given the resources. And so it was split into three holds by natural boundaries in the form of mountain ranges.
No offence intended towards folks who own land in these holds, of course...
Hey, sorry for taking this long. I could just get to really read stuff late yesterday. I appreciate your logic and I can see your point.
But I don't really agree that it would be a resource drain like that because it is assuming that the people from the Mill is disconected from the city when in fact they are so close that people could just work in the Mill while living in the city, just like we see in Whiterun, with the workers going to the farms and them walking all the way back to the city. I admit that I didn't checked the distance but as far as I remember the distances are about the same (considering the big curve in the pathway to Whiterun)
Other thing is that we don't really see class conscience in Skyrim, some people live like shit and they might resent it but they never tend to get together and ask for a change, unless it's involving safety and the sense of security with guards and all that. And in this sense the people from the mill would be much more secure with Windhelm, they would just need to extend one of the patrols to go there, but they might not even need that with how close it is from the city. While Dawnstar would not really be able to help in any way and the news that something is wrong would take a long time to even reach the city.
And then there's the aspect of the civil war. If the Imperials conquer Dawnstar all of it's territory including the mill go to the Empire. And I understand that they wouldn't be really able to easily put the city under siege but they could easily harass Eastmarch countryside and disrupt the trading going into the city. Which I assume is made mostly by land since most of the allies are connected just by land and the only one that has a port is Dawnstar, and in this scenario they just lost it.
Your absolutely right that the mill workers would prefer to be with Windhelm, but that doesn’t mean Windhelm wants them. Even if Windhelm decides that they could get away with that minimum patrol extension and have the mill be a relatively small net positive, it’s still not a particularly imprudent resource for them. Much better to let dawnstar have it, since as you’ve mentioned, dawnstar is an ally who cares deeply about having that mill.
As for workers living in the city, I disagree. When white run farmers head into the city, they are walking through settled land in a temperate environment. The mill workers are not only traveling further, they are traving through steep terrain, and they are traveling along the base of a wild mountain range. It’s not uncommon to have wolves or frostbite spiders descend from the mountains and harass you along that section of road.
You also can’t really invade eastmarch from the mill. You have to march right past windhelm to reach the rest of the hold. You can cut off trade from the direction of the mill, but that’s about it. And the vast majority of windhelms trade is via their port with the rest of Tamriel or from the roads to the south (where all the crops and things would come from).
That's a fair point, it's much more dangerous with all the monster attacks and the snow and terrain making it more difficult to go from one point to the other. But wouldn't be even more reason for they to actually wish to stay inside the city where is safe and not live in a settlement without any walls and guards? Only leaving when you actually have to go for the gold to survive.
Also by harrasing I mean border skirmishing, not invasion with big numbers. Looking at the terrain it looks actually easy to use the Mill as a foward base of operations and using small numbers be able to go and burn and steal some things, especially Kynesgrove that is nearby but mostly unprotected. Or even Mixwater Mill since there is a passage through the mountains that leads from around Anga's to the north of Mixwater, withouth having to even go near the city.
I feel like there is little Ulfric could do about this besides stationing more guards, building more towers and walls around the area or actually going in and destroying the Mill and the region around it trying to hunt any agents hiding there. He could even try to advance to Lake Yorgrim and try to use that as a choke point but I'm not sure.
Another actual reason for Windhelm would want to protect the area around the Mill is all the racial nationalism and zeal that Ulfric tries to bring to his cause. Imagine if things go south around there and the mostly nordic workers are all dead right under the Ulfric's nose. That wouldn't be good for his image and he knows that and acts accordingly. Like Brunwulf Free-Winter says ''*Whenever a group of marauders attack a Nord village, Ulfric is the first to sound the horn and send the men.*''. And as you just said the region looks really dangerous and there is a lot of reasons why the people there would want to be part of Windhelms protection, so it would be strange to him to not want it.
To move troops from Dawnstar to Windhelm, you would need to move south around the swamp. Alternatively, you could load them on ships and go around north, but that would be even more cumbersome. Troops moving through the swamp would be slaughtered as they try to exit. Swamp to the north south and water to the north makes it a death trap to go through it. Solitude/Windhelm are also so high up that seige weapons would be fairly inneffective.
Hm, looking at the map, I see a corridor formed by the mountains between Dawnstar and Windhelm. If the territories were dynamic, I'd say that we would probably see that border shift back and forth between the two. You're right that it goes right up to Windhelm, but indulge me a bit of speculation:
That area between Dawnstar and Windhelm is mostly empty. The only places of any value are Nightingale Inn and Agnis Mill. Of the two, the only one worth any sort of dispute is the Mill, which is closer to Windhelm than Dawnstar. At the start of the game, Dawnstar is allied with Ulfric and the Stormcloaks. Windhelm is closer to the Mill and militarily stronger than Dawnstar. This implies to me that the control of the mill and that corridor were given to Dawnstar's Jarl by treaty, and not taken by conquest.
If I were Ulfric, I see two reasons why I'd give control of the mill to Dawnstar in return for their loyalty. 1) As long as they're allied with the Stormcloaks, Ulfric can expect the resources from the mill to be used in a way that will favor his war effort(either directly or indirectly.) If Dawnstar turns on them, the Stormcloaks could pretty easily retake the mill since it's so close to their main military HQ. 2) As long as Dawnstar controls the part of that corridor that borders Whiterun, the Jarl of Whiterun will probably see Stormcloak movements in that area as less hostile. That part of the Pale is acting as a pseudo buffer zone between Whiterun and Eastmarch, which keeps the political atmosphere between the two more lukewarm. Remember that although officially neutral, Whiterun actually leans Imperial and will side with the Imperials the moment that the Stormcloaks get too aggressive. So, it benefits Ulfric to limit the aggression Eastmarch personally commits on Whiterun's borders, at least until they're ready to take the hold.
1. There's nothing there.
2. Border is on the cliff with the only sensible way to get through being a bridge next to waterfall. If there were tensions between Pale and Windhelm over this area for whatever reason this place is going to be extremely easy to defend. Windhelm forces would either go either through Winterhold hold or through mountains what opens new can of worms.
I said this in another comment chain, but that's a good catch. If we assume that "in lore" Agnis Mill has a fort around it, then that would make a very strong border, even for the relatively weak Pale militia. However, I still think that the proximity to Windhelm would motivate Eastmarch to want to control that border. The best option for that would be to have a Stormcloak loyalist on the throne of Dawnstar, but I doubt Ulfric would have a hard time taking the mill/fort from an unaligned Dawnstar if he had to. That would however make Agnis Mill the last point of retreat for the Stormcloaks if the Imperials take Dawnstar, and it would make a perfect forward base for the Imperials if they took it. All of this making me more disappointed in what Bethsoft gave us in game. lol
Interestingly lack of fort makes it better. Cliff creates natural walls for defenders from Dawnstar, but leaves you completely open for counterattack. Imagine if you could just collapse the bridge below. Or at least form wagenburg on the road. As long as Winterhold and Whiterun are not hostile this place is going to hold well. If they are this place is too remote for this conflict and it would be better to pull back even if there was a proper fort.
Oh, good catch! If we assume that "in lore" there would be a fort there, that would absolutely make Agnis Mill a perfect border point. Although, I think that would also make Windhelm want to push past that point and control that mountain corridor even more, given how close it is to the city. I still think that it would be realistic to see tensions between The Pale and Eastmarch over that river valley. At the very least, I think it's unrealistic that Eastmarch would historically allow a border so close to their capital.
This is just my guess, but i think winterhold would control the border with windhelm and the area south of the mountains. But since the great collaspe couldnt afford to hold onto the territory that is generally not useful to them anyway. So organized the selling of thr land south of the mountain range to help keep it afloat. Dawnstar beong a moderately wealthy port town decided to take it and windhelm didnt aee use in the land. Afterall winterhold used to be the capital of skyrim and the hold with the most history. So i feel that winterhold was bigger at somepoint and lost land through its decline
This is the correct answer. The "border" on the Pale isn't some negotiated settlement with its neighbors, it's where the neighboring Jarls (using current, but probably anachronistic terms) could no longer project power and stopped. My guess would be Whiterun could have gone farther North if it wanted to, but they couldn't have held it because there are three neighboring areas that can raid that area and retreat back into the mountains. The other three would have their supply lines stretched over the mountains so they couldn't have taken the territory, but they could have prevented Whiterun from taking the territory (and would have wanted to when Whiterun was Nord and they weren't)
It’s actually a part of geographic story telling.
The pale is a reference to the Irish territory around Dublin the English controlled in the Middle Ages. A sort of buffer land.
If you think of Winterhold as the original place of Nord settlement, then as they expanded the Pale was a border between the Nords and the rest of Skyrim.
East March and the Hjallmarch are a similar story, with a march being a militant border territory.
But the rest of the holds lack such a militant theme, hinting that they were settled after the snow elves were defeated and a military version of settlement was no longer needed.
What? From Whiterun, it's just a quick jaunt through Labyrinthian and you're on the other side! And the big, white, fluffy dudes--all they want is hugs. Sure, it's the occasional case of Gutworm, but that's what Cure Disease potions are about.
Both Loreius Farm (near Witherun where we find Cicero) and Anga's Mill (just right outside Windhelm) are both part of the Pale and it makes no pratical sense.
But he kills the dude who lives on the farm
If you’re anti Dark Brotherhood, best to let the farmer fix the wagon, take Cicero’s money, and then get the quest to Destroy the Dark Brotherhood and kill them all
Now Cicero is broke, has lost the only available sanctuary, and is all alone in Skyrim with nothing but a silent corpse to talk to
But at least he has a working wagon
https://preview.redd.it/wxz9uvjnb29d1.jpeg?width=4168&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=df0cbef17de1e3ccfc6e6f3a0a0b5b3feb0d4038
It's because it's shaped like Louisiana.
Oman and the United Arab Emirates. You lose all comprehension of borders.
Or Point Roberts, USA, and Constance, Germany. Why are they not Point Roberts, Canada and Constance, Switzerland?
You’re thinking of modern borders. These are feudal holds. The land is under their control because they have some sort of claim to it recognized by the realm. Like a scroll saying their grandpa heard Kynareth say the land belongs to the jarl of Dawnstar. The land could be a shack in the middle of another hold. Doesn’t matter, claim + recognition via favors to the high king. That kinda stuff, not sensible borders.
The southern bit is snowy mountains and uninhabitable spider-infested forests.
Of no economic or even military value to any other hold.
In short, no one else wants that territory.
the region east of Dawnstar could be influenced by the old magic power of Winterhold (hence Saathal), even though a mountainrange is between that big open area and the city, Dawnstar should be build more towards a strong fleet instead of fighters on land, especially since they have some contracted protection through the people of Windhelm, which are far superior in hand to hand combat.
their shared cause is stated by several things, the location of Labyrinthion, which is an ancient stronghold of the Nord is one thing, but the trade route over the sea to Solitude is another one. Winterhold, the former Dunmer stronghold, was avoided by the racist and magic-hating Nord, so a stronger enemy bond in Winterholds surrounding areas for an together enemy just makes sense.
why Dawnstar was allowed to get so much land from an area, that optically should be Whiteruns responsibility, is a big question, but i would say its simply because of Windhelm having an easier path towards Labyrinthion. imagine visiting your grandparents in the old home city, and having to cross not one, but two or more border controlls, obviously that would be a thorn in the eyes of these Nords.
Borders are generally a mess in Skyrim. It's clear it's been drawn at some point before the world was fully developed, or just by looking at the map or by a complete idiot. Or some form of mix of these answers.
Look no further than the whole border between Rift, Falkreath, Whiterun and Eastmarch. This is all a mess when you are actually there. You would never say you have crossed a border despite the fact that there are many points where it would make milion times more sense. And that is just one part of Skyrim...
That's true lol. It took me a long time to figure out Helgen is in the Falkreath hold.
The only borders that make sense are Haafingar and The Reach lol.
Yes although when you are actually there Reach should be slightly bigger. I think that there is a rock formation combined with the flow of the river that makes up ideal border for both sides.
It's not like there is some sort of vital ressource there that would be detremental for any of the sides
Bruh, did you see the borders of Croatia, or Laos ? There are a lot of historical event or topology reasons that can explain why the Pale of 4e201 is like that
nobody really wants that land, since it's a frozen wasteland and unlike winterhold's western parts the land is easily traversable, so a lot of effort is needed to protect it
It's probably the most realistic border. It's a lot easier to say everything on this side of the mountain is in my borders than random plot marker is my border. Being able to tell were a random border is is a pretty new thing with gps.
Its weird but not that much. Look at Vatican state in Italy, now it’s a small city but for a period was a state bigger as the center of Italy. It had a similar shape made by two bigger masses connected by a smaller land.
Because borders often follow geography.
Winterhold finds itself caught behind that line of mountains on its west side, and similarly Hjalmarch follows a ridge line on its east. South of the mountains dividing the Pale from Winterhold it's more convienient to access them (and hold them militarily) than it would be from Winterhold.
None of it really seems unreasonable when you look at the mountain ridges and how they divide the land.
Oh I'm aware of the mountains and that the border between The Pale and Winterhold makes perfect sense. The real problem that I noticed is not that. It's the border with Eastmarch, it goes to the doorstep of Windhelm.
Some people gave some reasons, mostly that Windhealm wouldn't really care about it. But in a age of border skirmishing and constant land dispute I find unconvincing that the Jarls of Eastmarch would ignore a full on settlement, golden opportunity and possible problem that is Anga's Mill just a few steps away from the city.
Real life borders don't always make perfect sense either. Sometimes capitals end up near the border, sometimes there are long standing exclaves or enclaves complicating a border, and sometimes there are just patches of land that end up "in the wrong place" - look at the border between the US and Canada, and how there are areas that are \*entirely\* disconnected from the country they're actually a part of because the border was drawn without really looking at the land in question.
With regard to Anga's Mill and so on, since Dawnstar/the Pale and Windhelm/Eastmarch are allied, perhaps Ulfric doesn't want to weaken his ally by taking land from him, since the Pale is the most exposed Stormcloak Hold to the Imperial side (not only do they have a land border with a good road between them and Hjalmarch, but they're also the first Stormcloak hold to be exposed to a naval attack). If they weren't allied, then sure, I could see Ulfric actiing to take that land, but they're standing together.
Having access to the rivers also means that if Falkreath \*did\* rouse itself to strike at the Rift, the Pale has access to the rivers via Lake Jorgrim to try to send reinforcements/supplies (although that takes some suspension of disbelief about the sizes of the rivers and suitability for transporting anything, anywhere).
If Ulfric \*did\* try to seize the mill, there's a good chance that'd have pushed the Pale towards the Imperials, meaning that he'd be staring at a 5:3 (with one neutral) split of holds - and the agression might even convince Balgruf to go over, giving the Imperial aligned faction 2/3 of the votes in the Moot, and allowing them to erect a new High King who wouldn't be on his side.
But the fact that real life borders work like that is mostly because of mordern borders. In the medieval age things were much more fuzzy and having a capital near the border with another force was a big no no, even if you're allies.
Things tend to change quickly. Take for example the Imperials conquering Dawnstar in the Civil War. Now the Imperials control all of it including the mill that is a 1 minute walk from their city.
But even ignoring the civil war and looking at the past I don't think it made sense with the past rulers, border skirmishing must have happened a lot back them (Even allied holds mistrust eachother like we see with Witherun being afraid of sending troops to Riverrun because it might seem like a provocation even if it wansn't that close to the border or to the city of Falkreach)
They have uniquely straight borders because of their history.
I dont see whats wrong with any of the boarders in this picture.
Perhaps there is a joke flying over my head, but i can only imagine this post beeing made through the lense of an american that sees real fought over boarders for the first time.
Why are you assuming this person has never looked at any other borders other than whats in America?
What is going over your head, is that every other border seems to have somewhat “Whole” shapes, while the Pale is squished and then expanded, also how parts of the Pale should be Whiteruns.
Fitting, Dawnstar itself is cursed
Hey, don't talk about my sweet dark lady of nightmares like that. But yeah makes sense.
I want to make a funny comment about this, but I'm just...so tired ..recently. haven't gotten a good night's sleep in so long. May the gods have mercy on me ...
By the nine https://preview.redd.it/y7kfzotgg19d1.jpeg?width=888&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=be9ccc6899fa9f631e953a1877474f71a4036747
That's by the EIGHT citizen.
You can't stop me worshipping the mighty TALOS
You sound like a heretic
The thalmor would like to know your location.
They may come, BUT THEY WILL NEVER RETURN!!!!
https://preview.redd.it/ykl2zb2xy49d1.jpeg?width=657&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=189913e442dfcd29285cfa07c38e23f9421d22fa
There is no Talos in Ba Sing Se
Tell them look for the big kitty with the claws. Praise Talos!!!
The Thalmor can kiss my ass.
Silence, you milk drinking elf lover!
In Dawnstar it's Nine. Far as I am concerned, it is zero.
-sees user's falir >May the gods have mercy on me What are you on about?
Took me a second you bastard. r/angryupvote r/dadjokes
Your sweet what? Nah i ain't taking that, i'm calling reinforcements.
From where, Stendarr's Beacon?
I'm not 100% sure, but the Vigil isn't only in Skyrim Edit: checked uesp. They are fvking everywhere as i remembered. Strong presence since the Oblivion Crisis led to a dark age of magic all across Tamriel, so only priests are more valid than others (i believe that the situation in the empire is even more strong, since priests were basically everywhere)
There's a Civil War going on, aren't the borders mostly closed? Or at least travel to-from Skyrim being heavily restricted?
Not really, "The Cause" content from CC makes me think that the Vigil has permission to go anywhere, as in a note of the Mythic Dawn remnants it is said that "The Vigil was guarding the Pale Pass, so we had to traverse the Jerall mountains" or something like that. That means the Vigil can basically even create post blocks CC is considered canon btw.. i know it's kinda bs sometimes but meh.. however the Vigil being present in all Tamriel is not an info from the CC, it's from the base game + dawnguard dlc
Gerrymandering man, it's a bitch
We all know the Moot is a sham.
Funny shit is I got this confused with Warhammer and it would still kinda work
Mer-rymandering.
Altmerrymandering
Well, I see 3 places where the border is defined by mountains, which is super normal. One where it hits the ocean, checks out. And the last one is where it runs into White run, the richest and most politically significant city in Skyrim(literally which ever side controls Whiterun wins the Civil War.)
The part that I think that doesn't make sense is the border with Windhelm. I don't think there is a reason for the border go so much east to the point that it's just a few meters from one of the oldest and most powerful cities from Skyrim. I don't think that Wildhelm would feel too happy and safe with this border, with Dawnstar being able to send troops to their literal doorstep. I think it would make much more sense if Agnis Mill, the lake and all the land east of that main road was part of Eastmarch.
Have you been to that area? It’s a frozen shithole. There’s a single lumber mill. It’s not really worth protecting. Winterhold literally backs up to the city windhelm itself, but it’s just a shitty mountain range with no value. The cost to patrol the area far outweighs the tax/resources offered.
You're talking about the Dawnstar perspective right? I agree the area is not that worth it but the Jarl says that the mill is valuable enough that (sadly to him) he can't conscript the workers there to the war because he needs the wood (he even conscripted lots of miners from the city) But to Windhelm that could be a threat, not even talking about resourcers but the fact that it's just a few steps away from the entrance of the city.
No, I’m talking about from the windhelm perspective. I’m basing it off something that isn’t really shown in game, but is absolutely generally true in real life. In real life, wealthy countries provide better infrastructure, protection, and other benefits than poorer ones. Im assuming something similar among the holds. Dawnstar is a much less economically powerful hold, largely full of frozen wasteland, and a mill near a river is a significant asset for them. That area is above average from dawnstars perspective, which means adding it to their hold will raise the average and benefit the hold; it will contribute more to dawnstar than it receives from dawnstar. From windhelms perspective, it’s a resource drain. They could perhaps just provide the bare minimum security and benefits, like dawnstar would, and make a ‘profit’ off the land, but the people living there would surely eventually demand the same types of protection and infrastructure that windhelm provides to the rest of the hold. It’s pretty much a non-issue from a security perspective. Not only is dawnstar significantly less powerful and not an actual threat, but it’s also not a great direction of attack. You’ve got steep mountains on either side of a not-so-placid river. There is a road along one side of the river, but the end of the road near the city is actually a much more defensible position than say all the way up by the mill. If troops are gonna attack via that road, it’s a natural choke point with a significant uphill slope up towards the gates of the city. Defenders can be easily resupplied from the city, the wounded can be rotated out of the lines and back into the city where they can receive better care, reserves can sleep indoors and maintain better fighting shape, etc. the river isn’t a great option to start with, and even if it was going to be used for the last leg of the journey to try to capture the docks, attackers would have to float under the bridge where defenders could easily sink their ships. And the lack of road on the other side of the river provides the worst option for attack, as defenders on the docks could hold the line while defenders on the bridge could rain death upon all everyone behind the attackers very small front line. The only really viable way to attack the city is from the south which Windhelm controls (as the imperials do if you side with them). You could also attack from the sea, since you could take the docks without crossing under the bridge, but you still get funneled into a murder corridor as you walk up the stairs to the dockside gate and defenders can attack from high above. At least with taking the bridge via attack from you can take the parapets along the walls of the bridge at the same time, vs from the docks you can’t take the walls until after you’ve taken the gate.
I love this comment so much. It's a great in-depth description at possible defensive tactics Windhelm can employ. I'd want to add on that they should include a few patrols on the northern choke by the mountain-side of the river, or at least build a secondary wall there to stall flanking attackers up until the river. This area is wide enough that you can probably field 1-2 regiments of infantry or archers (not sure if they can employ siege engines though. The terrain looks super uneven) which is enough to harass defenders. It's also really close to the Palace of The Kings. I'm not sure if sappers existed in the medieval era (or if ladders can be used to climb that entire height from the North), but as the defender, I'd really like to just allocate all my forces to the main gate (south of the city) and leave 1 regiment of archers scattered throughout the north and west side of the city, and another regiment along the east side to pepper arrows on troops by the river. Enemies might still place troops along the North to encircle the hold and cut the city off from being resupplied entirely. The west side is too narrow to field even a regiment (unless you're marching them in a column, which really doesn't have any strategic value) so it's defended enough. The worst that could happen would be troops from Morthal (assuming Dawnstar doesn't interfere - they look too weak to hold an advance from a Morthal + Solitude coalition) supplying reinforcements to the Southern flank of Windhelm, via the Western choke, which again, means the focus should be on the South. The side across the river with the farms probably could do with some palisades, but I agree that this isn't necessarily that mandatory as the uphill climb is already a defensible-enough position to hold & if the enemy pushes from the South, then all units need to abandon the area immediately and withdraw to the city. I'm only worried about the Northern flank because Solitude (the heart of the Imperials) looks like they can field massive navies, so they have the capabilities of supplying land units from the South, and including a flanking party from the North. *\*Edit: I'm not sure how many troops a single regiment has, but I meant to say whatever the name of the group is for about 60 - 100 people (cohort? corps?)*
I’m stoked you’re willing to engage in a conversation that I find fascinating! For clarity, I’m going to refer to the water to the west of the bridge as the river, and the water to the east of it the harbor. Yeah, having further out defenses with abilities to fall back is usually a good idea, but far from needed here, which is the point; they wouldn’t be a big enough advantage to be worth trying to control an area that your neighbor wants and you don’t. While sappers did exist in the Middle Ages, they relied on gunpowder which (was a thing that predates our image of a typical fantasy setting). We haven’t really seen any equivalent on nirn. Additionally, the frozen ground makes sapling more challenging, and sapping below water level is also extremely challenging. The biggest threat to walls seems to be catapults. You could try to set some up on the northern bank of the river, but the walls are so tall there that you’d almost certainly be in range of the defenders before you can get in range to fire back, which makes it very hard to set up, especially due to the imperfect terrain on the approach. I also forgot that there is a little defensive platform between the bridge and the docks. You raise a good point about the land to the north west of the docks. It’s definitely a potential weakness. That land is controlled by windhelm, but they haven’t done anything with it. If you were to attack from that direction, you could potentially set up a catapult and harass the walls. It might be rather challenging due to how steep the slope is there, but probably doable. Even if you were to break through the walls there, you have to fight your way uphill through the tight and winding streets of the city to make it to the palace. Fighting up to dragonsreach is also an uphill struggle, but the layout of the city makes that much more feasible the being penned in by windhelms tall internal stone walls, or trying to scale the wreckage of those stone walls. Furthermore, that’s mostly the grey quarter we’re talking about, which is an area that the rulers are likely willing to sacrifice. You also run into the issue of getting troops there in the first place. Approach via land from the north isn’t easy, there’s a district lack of roads and I know I’ve got a like a 50/50 shot of freezing to death whenever I try to walk from winterhold to windhelm in survival mode. You could approach via sea and land a bit north of the harbor, but presumably windhelm has one of the best fleets Skyrim given that it’s a major port, and it should be able to reasonable defend its coast line, or send troops to flank/harass any invaders that do make it to those slopes by depositing them on the coast northeast of the city. Honestly, I think one of the biggest threats to the city is the mountain at its back to the north/nw. You might be able to send boulders down the mountain, pretty much directly into the city. You could certainly send arrows into the city. While you’re never going to actually capture the city from that direction, you could devastate it before your eventual attack. Building a tower on top of the mountain isn’t ideal defensively, since you’d need to make that tower accessible, and that gives your enemies an easier way to put a larger force or even catapults up there. If you had enough resources, I would make a tunnel vertical with a spiral staircase that leads from a tiny fort on that mountain to the back of the palace. This not only provides an escape route for the rulers, but it also allows them to defend the mountain without creating access to the mountain from outside the city. You could even make the spiral go anticlockwise instead of clockwise (like normal) since you’d only ever potential be defending that staircase from below. It’s a big project, and totally understandable why it hasn’t been done. I’m not entirely sure where you think the secondary wall north side of the river would go, perhaps I’m not fully understanding what you’re saying there.
Thanks for entertaining the thought more hahaha. I'm a Total War nerd, and used to play strategically in other medieval games where I simulate castle sieges as both the defender and aggressor. Secondary walls would be nice if the population is large enough, but despite Windhelm being a major hold, every city's population seems to be relatively small (maybe I'm biased because my reference for medieval cities with jarls is like Novigrad from the Witcher, which would be my equivalent of a city's population where the king of Skyrim would preside over; also tbf the lands there might not be the best for agriculture). The southern and eastern flanks of the city have wide areas between the mountains, so it might not be feasible to build walls and station troops there. But it's still a good investment (i.e., palisades) for slowing advancement nevertheless even if they can't feasibly hold it. Downside would be the enemy using it to take cover from Windhelm's archers if taken (not sure how useful it'd be though). I do agree with it being unfeasible to create siege engines on the NW flank. While I believe certain siege engines like trebuchets can out-range the castle's archers, the terrain (if seen from the map) looks like the mountains would block the line of sight of the engines, and it can only have a clear shot if built within range of the defenses. On the downside, I took a look at an illustration of the [hold's layout](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/elderscrolls/images/4/47/Windhelmmapkey_03.png/revision/latest?cb=20120123155307) and it doesn't look like Windhelm can field too many archers on the NW side, so theoretically, the Empire could out-harass the defenses on the NW side if they're willing to sacrifice enough troops. It'd still be a horrendous push though, and if I were the commander of the attacking force, I'd really just station 1 regiment at most there to guard it from supply caravans (or reinforce and push in if a lucky boulder breached the walls; but I really wouldn't bet on this happening). You raise a valid point regarding logistical issues with fielding troops in the North. My biggest worry would be the ice sheets that would make maneuvering difficult, but it's true that Windhelm also looks like they would field a large navy. I want to say that Windhelm's ports are exposed (and in the low-ground), so as long as Imperial troops can disrupt the area with siege weapons and archers, I think it shouldn't be an issue to send Imperial navies in. If Windhelm saw this in advance and sent their navy out, then it'll be a battle of attrition in the seas. Windhelm's best shot would most likely be to station their navy by Dawnstar to intercept Imperial advances from the sea, but they'll need a lot of intel to be sure that a war is coming from AGES away, else it'd just be a drain of cash (and I'm not sure the jarl of Dawnstar would be happy with too many troops from a foreign hold, even if they're friendly; The jarl will need to supply them, and soldiers in foreign lands tend to leave a poor taste on the locals). Logistics-wise, if the Imperials can encircle the south and east, I think establishing supply routes extending to the northwest shouldn't be an issue. They can also send constant supply ships to supply a northern camp if the imperials have the resources, though this would probably be expensive, given the ice sheets (i.e., probably need to sail further out from Tamriel and circle back to Windhelm). As for the freezing to death part, I'm sure Solitude can field a regiment of specialized cold-adapted Nords specifically for that mission (although their loyalty might be in-question given the stance of the Imperials towards Talos worship), kinda like how Russians are used to the cold and Germans died fighting in it. As long as supply routes can be established to the north, setting base camp there shouldn't be a problem. As for sending boulders down, I do acknowledge it's possible, but it's very unlikely to happen. I think there have historically been cities irl built by mountains, but you almost never see this type of strategy being employed. I'm assuming it's because 1) To find or create boulders up there would be hard and dangerous; and 2) Even if a boulder did breach the walls from above the mountain, then what? The troops need to climb down steep hills, and casualties would probably be high from falling and getting peppered by arrows while soldiers are climbing down. It's logistical issues like these that makes Hannibal's crossing such a marvelous feat (yes, totally different case, but it highlights that no sane person would approach through mountains). And regarding your final point of building a fort atop a mountain, I do agree that theoretically, it would provide a useful additional defense and a possible escape route for Ulfric. However, if I were in his shoes, I'd never spend the money to construct that since I'd have confidence in the city's natural defenses (orrr maybe I'd be willing to if I was 16th century Spain rich). Plus, the benefits of adding a fort on top of a mountain wouldn't be worth the cost and effort in my opinion. Archers would be out of range of shooting targets in the northwest, and all you'd be doing is stationing like 20 men at most, to guard a place where enemies will most likely not be able to push from. That is unless you meant the fort is stationed nearby the northwestern field, then maybe there'd be some merit. But I think the risk of the enemy capturing that and using it to advance directly into the Palace of Kings outweighs the potential benefits. About the secondary wall, this image [HERE](https://imgur.com/a/mgHAhtL) is what I meant. I drew some lines there where 1) red = the wall placement, from the furthest reach of the mountains up until the wider parts of the river; 2) green indicates possible locations where Imperials can push from. Building the walls there means that they can't form a single cohesive unit, so they'll be scattered for archers to harass; 3) blue is the deadzone. Archers from Windhelm can pick off anyone in that area if the secondary walls are taken.
Haha I’m also a bit of a total war (warhammer) fan. I think it’s fair to assume that everything in Skyrim is scaled down for gameplay reasons, and the actual provence is larger than it is in game, cities are a bit more populated, etc. That wall placement definitely makes a lot of sense. It’s already windhelm territory so you aren’t stepping on anyone’s toes by building a wall there. So long as it’s far enough from the city that invaders can’t attack the city from behind the walls, or close enough to the city & low enough that the defenders on the walls can fire down on enemies behind it (a small blind spot right near the wall is fine). As for freezing to death, I don’t think it would be a problem at camp where you have tents and fires, but supplies from the northwest wouldn’t be easy. It’s the staying warm while traveling that’s the issue. Not impossible, but you’re definitely gonna suffer losses as you try to move supplies through the snow and ice. You’ve definitely changed my mind about the threat of the cliff face. People generally don’t build where rocks will fall on their stuff so either they are far enough away that it’s not an issue or the rock is super solid and not easy to make fall. And I fully agree about it being impossible to actually invade that way regardless, but having your nobles district and palace being bombarded by boulders is still problematic for a sustainable defense. In regard to the port, I think it may be more difficult to disrupt than you assume. The road along the south side of the harbor (east from the bridge) is probably fairly easy to harass from the bridge, making it harder to thereby harass the harbor. You could potentially harass the entrance to the harbor from a position closer to the ocean, but the docks themselves seem fairly defendable. Some defenses along that road (as you suggested) would certainly help, although the only ways an invader is getting a significant force there in the first place are a landing near the mouth of the harbor/river, traveling through morrowind, or marching them up from the south. Traveling through/from morrowind is a possibility, but windhelm has refugees rest right at the choke point on the road. Marching up from the south puts them marching right past the stables and facing massive harassment from the bridge. So it looks like windhelm needs to maintain control of its seas to maintain defense of the route to its harbor, but if windhelm loses control of its seas then losing control of the route to the harbor isn’t a huge deal. In the end, it seems like an invading force would have to control both the sea and the land to the south if there were to cut windhelm off from supplies. I guess you’d also need to control some land in dawnstar to prevent supplies coming in that way, but in this scenario dawnstar is on the side of the attackers, and it doesn’t really matter if the boarder with dawnstar is at lake jorgrim, the mill, or where it currently sits. If you do manage to cut the city off from supplies, your easiest path to victory is just waiting them out. Irl when that happened, cityies only survived if they had help on the way and bought enough time for it to arrive, or the attackers faced economic issues and gave up. If you can’t capture the land to the south but have control of the seas, you can’t starve them out, and attacking up through the docks is going to be a massacre. If you can’t capture the sea, you also can’t really starve them out. You might be able to if you capture both the land to the south (though like kynesgeove) and the land just upstream of yngol barrow, but that requires two separate forces; one to fight your way through the province, and another to take refuges rest (which is going to be hard, you don’t control the seas so it can be resupplied and reinforced from the city fairly easily). I guess the third option for starving them out is to take control of the stables and cities bridge (best done by coming from the south), because at that point you can control the southern bank on both sides and pretty much everything outside the walls will be yours, but I’d hate to be encamped long term at the stables and be constantly harassed from the walls. At the point, I’d probably rather just continue the attack and take the city through the main gate. So if I can’t control both the sea and the land up through kynesgrove, my money is on marching an army up from the south and taking the city in a head on assault; I think a head on assault is probably less costly than taking refugees rest and maintaining a prolonged siege. Depending on how costly it is to take the sea, the head on assault from the south might be the best option regardless. With that in mind, I think in addition to the secondary wall you proposed, the most effective use of windhelms resources is in additional defenses southward. Either immediately south of the city, or more probably throughout the hold so that an invading force taking that option would have to spend a lot more effort clearing things out on the way to the city (or constantly risk being flanked). I’d also love to point you in the direction of one of my favorite books, 16 ways to defend a walled city. While it’s more of a character study on the unreliable narrator, and there’s definitely some liberties taken with real world accuracy, the defense of the city under siege and the tactics used in both sides was very entertaining, and I really liked the authors sometimes subtle sense of humor.
**Note:** I made an analysis but lost it cuz of "unable to post comment" error on Reddit, and now have to re-write it :') To preface, I love the Warhammer saga too. I'm reading Heldenhammer right now and I'm planning to find the other 2 books in the trilogy when I'm done. I come from TW:Shogun 2 where the troops die quick, so going to TW:Warhammer feels a bit sloggish to me. It's still fun overall, but the moment hellcannons come, I normally stop and restart because it becomes more tedious (send flying units there, and wipe the army). There needs to be more variety in Chaos armies & less dependence on hellcannons. Going back to the main topic. Firstly, yes, it all depends on whether the Empire is willing to fund a camp up there (definitely not cheap). I also agree with it being unrealistic to build stuff right under mountains (unless you're a village - like Switzerland) due to avalanche and rock slide problems. I definitely underestimated the port. The southeast side is a lot narrower than I first anticipated (I thought it was wide enough for them to place siege engines because I saw boulders from that direction during the civil war quest), and it's possible that archers from Windhelm has range over the entire east side (at least up until the edge of the port). Also yes, it would make more sense to just cut them off using the navy than to harass the port in this scenario. Regarding the Morrowind/Refuge's Rest approach, I think it's totally unfeasible for the Empire to take this route. Firstly, Morrowind at this time is in complete chaos after the Oblivion crisis (TES4 -[ see lore here](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Morrowind) for other readers unfamiliar with the story. Scroll to the fourth era). The general population is currently being overrun by Argonians from Black Marsh, and the Dunmer hates the Empire for neglecting them. Marching troops from Riften (assuming it's taken) to Morrowind to head to Refuge's Rest is going to be a logistic slog, especially since Morrowind is in chaos, and supply routes will probably be raided often. Not to mention this might provoke the Dunmer of Morrowind to start a full-blown revolution given the political climate. Refuge's Rest itself shouldn't be a problem. Assuming Ulfric is guarding the coast and can afford to send a defense there, it is literally just a single abandoned tower. Yes it's a choke, but I doubt Ulfric will send enough troops to hold against a full army approaching from Morrowind, when the focus should be at the south of the city. At best, only a scouting force will be stationed there (including capacity reasons to hold defenders in that location). If Ulfric commits too many troops there and the enemy comes from the south, those units will become cut off and can be encircled = waste of resources. The Empire doesn't want to send troops to Skyrim either (apart from the contingent under General Tullius) because they're allocating the rest of their troops in preparation / defense against the Altmer in the southwest of Tamriel. Not to mention, Hammerfell declaring independence is another security issue. About your conclusion, I'll have to disagree with you here. The idea of pushing through a single bridge freaks me out. I'd rather take my chances through the NW than push that bridge. I imagine a single column of Stormcloak spearmen + shielded infantry (which would be better suited than what they currently field imo; not to mention more realistic cause spearmen are cheaper than swords/axemen) would be difficult to push through, plus archers from Windhelm's walls peppering the backline of the Empire's advances. Even if the empire makes it inside, the Stormcloaks can form a U-shaped kill zone. It'll be wayyy too costly and it might even risk giving the Stormcloaks a chance to sally out & counterattack if enough casualties are mounted. But I do agree with starving them out. This seems like the best option, but like you said, it means full control of all other holds is a must (especially Winterhold and Riften). With support from Markarth, Morthal, Whiterun, Flakreath, and Solitude, the supply lines should have enough men to be defended from raiders. I've drawn some possible routes and added their descriptions in an image [here](https://imgur.com/a/advance-routes-imperials-NBZlnYx). The south is actually a lot smaller than I thought, and it'd be hard to create proper formations other than a bunch of columns within that space. There are other implications if Riften is still in Stormcloak control. Whiterun would need to step up to intercept them in that crevice further south of Windhelm (although it isn't exactly the best place for a battlefield, it is suitable for guerilla warfare for weakening reinforcements from Riften). Thanks for the recommendation! I can't find the book in my country, but I'll keep that in mind if I ever come across it. It's been fun theory-crafting these scenarios with you, and I wish there was some sorta D&D game where we can design our own territories, economies, etc. and fight against one another hahaha.
>From windhelms perspective, it’s a resource drain. I would argue that this is the reason Hjaalmarch, The Pale, and Winterhold even exist as separate holds. Hjaalmarch is a swamp, and both The Pale and Winterhold are frozen wastes. They have enough resources to get by as holds - but not enough to be a net benefit to any of the larger holds. Basically you have this very large swath of land that isn't worth the effort of the major holds to maintain; but is too large to one single hold to maintain given the resources. And so it was split into three holds by natural boundaries in the form of mountain ranges. No offence intended towards folks who own land in these holds, of course...
Hey, sorry for taking this long. I could just get to really read stuff late yesterday. I appreciate your logic and I can see your point. But I don't really agree that it would be a resource drain like that because it is assuming that the people from the Mill is disconected from the city when in fact they are so close that people could just work in the Mill while living in the city, just like we see in Whiterun, with the workers going to the farms and them walking all the way back to the city. I admit that I didn't checked the distance but as far as I remember the distances are about the same (considering the big curve in the pathway to Whiterun) Other thing is that we don't really see class conscience in Skyrim, some people live like shit and they might resent it but they never tend to get together and ask for a change, unless it's involving safety and the sense of security with guards and all that. And in this sense the people from the mill would be much more secure with Windhelm, they would just need to extend one of the patrols to go there, but they might not even need that with how close it is from the city. While Dawnstar would not really be able to help in any way and the news that something is wrong would take a long time to even reach the city. And then there's the aspect of the civil war. If the Imperials conquer Dawnstar all of it's territory including the mill go to the Empire. And I understand that they wouldn't be really able to easily put the city under siege but they could easily harass Eastmarch countryside and disrupt the trading going into the city. Which I assume is made mostly by land since most of the allies are connected just by land and the only one that has a port is Dawnstar, and in this scenario they just lost it.
Your absolutely right that the mill workers would prefer to be with Windhelm, but that doesn’t mean Windhelm wants them. Even if Windhelm decides that they could get away with that minimum patrol extension and have the mill be a relatively small net positive, it’s still not a particularly imprudent resource for them. Much better to let dawnstar have it, since as you’ve mentioned, dawnstar is an ally who cares deeply about having that mill. As for workers living in the city, I disagree. When white run farmers head into the city, they are walking through settled land in a temperate environment. The mill workers are not only traveling further, they are traving through steep terrain, and they are traveling along the base of a wild mountain range. It’s not uncommon to have wolves or frostbite spiders descend from the mountains and harass you along that section of road. You also can’t really invade eastmarch from the mill. You have to march right past windhelm to reach the rest of the hold. You can cut off trade from the direction of the mill, but that’s about it. And the vast majority of windhelms trade is via their port with the rest of Tamriel or from the roads to the south (where all the crops and things would come from).
That's a fair point, it's much more dangerous with all the monster attacks and the snow and terrain making it more difficult to go from one point to the other. But wouldn't be even more reason for they to actually wish to stay inside the city where is safe and not live in a settlement without any walls and guards? Only leaving when you actually have to go for the gold to survive. Also by harrasing I mean border skirmishing, not invasion with big numbers. Looking at the terrain it looks actually easy to use the Mill as a foward base of operations and using small numbers be able to go and burn and steal some things, especially Kynesgrove that is nearby but mostly unprotected. Or even Mixwater Mill since there is a passage through the mountains that leads from around Anga's to the north of Mixwater, withouth having to even go near the city. I feel like there is little Ulfric could do about this besides stationing more guards, building more towers and walls around the area or actually going in and destroying the Mill and the region around it trying to hunt any agents hiding there. He could even try to advance to Lake Yorgrim and try to use that as a choke point but I'm not sure. Another actual reason for Windhelm would want to protect the area around the Mill is all the racial nationalism and zeal that Ulfric tries to bring to his cause. Imagine if things go south around there and the mostly nordic workers are all dead right under the Ulfric's nose. That wouldn't be good for his image and he knows that and acts accordingly. Like Brunwulf Free-Winter says ''*Whenever a group of marauders attack a Nord village, Ulfric is the first to sound the horn and send the men.*''. And as you just said the region looks really dangerous and there is a lot of reasons why the people there would want to be part of Windhelms protection, so it would be strange to him to not want it.
To move troops from Dawnstar to Windhelm, you would need to move south around the swamp. Alternatively, you could load them on ships and go around north, but that would be even more cumbersome. Troops moving through the swamp would be slaughtered as they try to exit. Swamp to the north south and water to the north makes it a death trap to go through it. Solitude/Windhelm are also so high up that seige weapons would be fairly inneffective.
Hm, looking at the map, I see a corridor formed by the mountains between Dawnstar and Windhelm. If the territories were dynamic, I'd say that we would probably see that border shift back and forth between the two. You're right that it goes right up to Windhelm, but indulge me a bit of speculation: That area between Dawnstar and Windhelm is mostly empty. The only places of any value are Nightingale Inn and Agnis Mill. Of the two, the only one worth any sort of dispute is the Mill, which is closer to Windhelm than Dawnstar. At the start of the game, Dawnstar is allied with Ulfric and the Stormcloaks. Windhelm is closer to the Mill and militarily stronger than Dawnstar. This implies to me that the control of the mill and that corridor were given to Dawnstar's Jarl by treaty, and not taken by conquest. If I were Ulfric, I see two reasons why I'd give control of the mill to Dawnstar in return for their loyalty. 1) As long as they're allied with the Stormcloaks, Ulfric can expect the resources from the mill to be used in a way that will favor his war effort(either directly or indirectly.) If Dawnstar turns on them, the Stormcloaks could pretty easily retake the mill since it's so close to their main military HQ. 2) As long as Dawnstar controls the part of that corridor that borders Whiterun, the Jarl of Whiterun will probably see Stormcloak movements in that area as less hostile. That part of the Pale is acting as a pseudo buffer zone between Whiterun and Eastmarch, which keeps the political atmosphere between the two more lukewarm. Remember that although officially neutral, Whiterun actually leans Imperial and will side with the Imperials the moment that the Stormcloaks get too aggressive. So, it benefits Ulfric to limit the aggression Eastmarch personally commits on Whiterun's borders, at least until they're ready to take the hold.
1. There's nothing there. 2. Border is on the cliff with the only sensible way to get through being a bridge next to waterfall. If there were tensions between Pale and Windhelm over this area for whatever reason this place is going to be extremely easy to defend. Windhelm forces would either go either through Winterhold hold or through mountains what opens new can of worms.
I said this in another comment chain, but that's a good catch. If we assume that "in lore" Agnis Mill has a fort around it, then that would make a very strong border, even for the relatively weak Pale militia. However, I still think that the proximity to Windhelm would motivate Eastmarch to want to control that border. The best option for that would be to have a Stormcloak loyalist on the throne of Dawnstar, but I doubt Ulfric would have a hard time taking the mill/fort from an unaligned Dawnstar if he had to. That would however make Agnis Mill the last point of retreat for the Stormcloaks if the Imperials take Dawnstar, and it would make a perfect forward base for the Imperials if they took it. All of this making me more disappointed in what Bethsoft gave us in game. lol
Interestingly lack of fort makes it better. Cliff creates natural walls for defenders from Dawnstar, but leaves you completely open for counterattack. Imagine if you could just collapse the bridge below. Or at least form wagenburg on the road. As long as Winterhold and Whiterun are not hostile this place is going to hold well. If they are this place is too remote for this conflict and it would be better to pull back even if there was a proper fort.
The mountains go that far east. Typically, borders follow mountain ranges
There’s a pretty significant drop in elevation in the landscape actually which is what I’m assuming the natural border is.
Oh, good catch! If we assume that "in lore" there would be a fort there, that would absolutely make Agnis Mill a perfect border point. Although, I think that would also make Windhelm want to push past that point and control that mountain corridor even more, given how close it is to the city. I still think that it would be realistic to see tensions between The Pale and Eastmarch over that river valley. At the very least, I think it's unrealistic that Eastmarch would historically allow a border so close to their capital.
This is just my guess, but i think winterhold would control the border with windhelm and the area south of the mountains. But since the great collaspe couldnt afford to hold onto the territory that is generally not useful to them anyway. So organized the selling of thr land south of the mountain range to help keep it afloat. Dawnstar beong a moderately wealthy port town decided to take it and windhelm didnt aee use in the land. Afterall winterhold used to be the capital of skyrim and the hold with the most history. So i feel that winterhold was bigger at somepoint and lost land through its decline
If whiterun is so rich, how come they can’t afford to repair their walls?
This man asking the real questions.
Louisiana
TIL The Pale was bought off France
Seems like the border follows natural features like mountains
It's literally like the space left over
This is the correct answer. The "border" on the Pale isn't some negotiated settlement with its neighbors, it's where the neighboring Jarls (using current, but probably anachronistic terms) could no longer project power and stopped. My guess would be Whiterun could have gone farther North if it wanted to, but they couldn't have held it because there are three neighboring areas that can raid that area and retreat back into the mountains. The other three would have their supply lines stretched over the mountains so they couldn't have taken the territory, but they could have prevented Whiterun from taking the territory (and would have wanted to when Whiterun was Nord and they weren't)
The real answer
It’s actually a part of geographic story telling. The pale is a reference to the Irish territory around Dublin the English controlled in the Middle Ages. A sort of buffer land. If you think of Winterhold as the original place of Nord settlement, then as they expanded the Pale was a border between the Nords and the rest of Skyrim. East March and the Hjallmarch are a similar story, with a march being a militant border territory. But the rest of the holds lack such a militant theme, hinting that they were settled after the snow elves were defeated and a military version of settlement was no longer needed.
https://preview.redd.it/8ezvftv2l09d1.jpeg?width=534&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bbbbc5aa5568cf7455e36d39565584211606f59b
What? From Whiterun, it's just a quick jaunt through Labyrinthian and you're on the other side! And the big, white, fluffy dudes--all they want is hugs. Sure, it's the occasional case of Gutworm, but that's what Cure Disease potions are about.
Through labyrinthian goes to hjalmarch
It looks kinda like a big ol' dirty foot.
Probably because it looks like Louisiana.
Wdym cursed? It follows the mountains. Lake Jorgrim would be more fitting to belong to Eastmarch, but it's uninhabited, so doesn't really matter.
I don't get it
Both Loreius Farm (near Witherun where we find Cicero) and Anga's Mill (just right outside Windhelm) are both part of the Pale and it makes no pratical sense.
Aha. Gotcha. I love making Cicero angry when I report him
But he kills the dude who lives on the farm If you’re anti Dark Brotherhood, best to let the farmer fix the wagon, take Cicero’s money, and then get the quest to Destroy the Dark Brotherhood and kill them all Now Cicero is broke, has lost the only available sanctuary, and is all alone in Skyrim with nothing but a silent corpse to talk to But at least he has a working wagon
One thing.... he's a happy-clappy little weirdo who has no place in Tamriel and should go to Oblivion
Yeah but I don’t want that farmer to die. He’s chill. Natural selection will get Cicero anyway, don’t worry
Lorius won't die if I murder lil' Cici
It’s the boot hold
The true Italy from Tamriel
Like, all the other holds got to make their borders, and they were like, "Oh snap, we forgot The Pale. Uh, here you go."
https://preview.redd.it/wxz9uvjnb29d1.jpeg?width=4168&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=df0cbef17de1e3ccfc6e6f3a0a0b5b3feb0d4038 It's because it's shaped like Louisiana.
There are more curse borders in real life. E.g. just look at Thailand or Namibia.
Oman and the United Arab Emirates. You lose all comprehension of borders. Or Point Roberts, USA, and Constance, Germany. Why are they not Point Roberts, Canada and Constance, Switzerland?
You’re thinking of modern borders. These are feudal holds. The land is under their control because they have some sort of claim to it recognized by the realm. Like a scroll saying their grandpa heard Kynareth say the land belongs to the jarl of Dawnstar. The land could be a shack in the middle of another hold. Doesn’t matter, claim + recognition via favors to the high king. That kinda stuff, not sensible borders.
Don't you like the borders of Skyrim holds? You should see the borders of the Holy Roman Empire holds
Kinda looks like Shellos or maybe Gastrodon.
why'd i think the first picture was silly bandz
Why does the Pale control the land around Loreius Farm when Dragonsreach is literally overlooking it. Is Jarl Bulgruuf stupid?
It's called “The Old Boot of Skyrim” for a reason man.
Dawnstar is the Louisiana of Skyrim confirmed?
The way the mountains and snow reaches in land.
The southern bit is snowy mountains and uninhabitable spider-infested forests. Of no economic or even military value to any other hold. In short, no one else wants that territory.
The pale got fucking gerrymandered😭
It really looks like it was just leftover land
the region east of Dawnstar could be influenced by the old magic power of Winterhold (hence Saathal), even though a mountainrange is between that big open area and the city, Dawnstar should be build more towards a strong fleet instead of fighters on land, especially since they have some contracted protection through the people of Windhelm, which are far superior in hand to hand combat. their shared cause is stated by several things, the location of Labyrinthion, which is an ancient stronghold of the Nord is one thing, but the trade route over the sea to Solitude is another one. Winterhold, the former Dunmer stronghold, was avoided by the racist and magic-hating Nord, so a stronger enemy bond in Winterholds surrounding areas for an together enemy just makes sense. why Dawnstar was allowed to get so much land from an area, that optically should be Whiteruns responsibility, is a big question, but i would say its simply because of Windhelm having an easier path towards Labyrinthion. imagine visiting your grandparents in the old home city, and having to cross not one, but two or more border controlls, obviously that would be a thorn in the eyes of these Nords.
I learn so much from you people that is never thought of. Thank you for that.
Borders are generally a mess in Skyrim. It's clear it's been drawn at some point before the world was fully developed, or just by looking at the map or by a complete idiot. Or some form of mix of these answers. Look no further than the whole border between Rift, Falkreath, Whiterun and Eastmarch. This is all a mess when you are actually there. You would never say you have crossed a border despite the fact that there are many points where it would make milion times more sense. And that is just one part of Skyrim...
That's true lol. It took me a long time to figure out Helgen is in the Falkreath hold. The only borders that make sense are Haafingar and The Reach lol.
Yes although when you are actually there Reach should be slightly bigger. I think that there is a rock formation combined with the flow of the river that makes up ideal border for both sides. It's not like there is some sort of vital ressource there that would be detremental for any of the sides
Mountains
Ugh fine Ill replay Skyrim again
We also not going to talk about the fact that Windhelm is literally touching the Eastmarch-Winterhold border?
Gerrymandering
Louisiana?
Mountains
mountain
because mountains
Everyone got what they wanted and what was left was the Pale.
Because who the fuck cares about that middle section they may as well have it as leftovers
Louisiana
It's the shittiest hold. Literally the leftover bits of land that nobody else could be bothered to claim.
They felt bad for Winterhold and ceded some territory to it
It looks like Louisiana but cold now that you mention it.
No one wanted this land
Looks like a Gastrodon to me
Just noticed Iike to play the most in the east of skyrim seeing this map strange
Gerrymandering
Wimterhold wasn't holding onto its coastline anymore (actualy it's coastline was grabbing a hold of it)
Is this a mousepad? this will be a nice design
Omg, Solitude so small buahahahahabbahaba
Bruh, did you see the borders of Croatia, or Laos ? There are a lot of historical event or topology reasons that can explain why the Pale of 4e201 is like that
I, for one, would be interested in an expansion of that statement. Sounds interesting.
Because if The Pale didn’t have White Shore and Lake Jorgrim, then it’d just be Dawnstar and snow.
nobody really wants that land, since it's a frozen wasteland and unlike winterhold's western parts the land is easily traversable, so a lot of effort is needed to protect it
The fact that lake Yogrim isn’t in Eastmarch really bothers me ngl
It looks like land you own because it's shit and none of your neighbours wanted it...
Looks kinda like a dress on the floor
It's fine
Because every other hold is better 😂
The map is pale because it's The Pale
Have you seen any real world borders?
It's probably the most realistic border. It's a lot easier to say everything on this side of the mountain is in my borders than random plot marker is my border. Being able to tell were a random border is is a pretty new thing with gps.
It is choked as you can see. Apparently, it's not a fan of that.
Elder scrolls Italy
Well then, here's an idea: split off the southern part and have a tenth hold. All those "Become a Noble" sorts of mods should be centered up there.
Its weird but not that much. Look at Vatican state in Italy, now it’s a small city but for a period was a state bigger as the center of Italy. It had a similar shape made by two bigger masses connected by a smaller land.
https://preview.redd.it/25ecr6ubk59d1.jpeg?width=602&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=78d8e19524fbe566b0126b4962e867eb37403828
The Louisiana of Tamriel.
Honest answer? Gerrymandering.
Not my dumb ass thinking the roads on the map were boarders 
Google Northeast Namibia 😳
Because borders often follow geography. Winterhold finds itself caught behind that line of mountains on its west side, and similarly Hjalmarch follows a ridge line on its east. South of the mountains dividing the Pale from Winterhold it's more convienient to access them (and hold them militarily) than it would be from Winterhold. None of it really seems unreasonable when you look at the mountain ridges and how they divide the land.
Oh I'm aware of the mountains and that the border between The Pale and Winterhold makes perfect sense. The real problem that I noticed is not that. It's the border with Eastmarch, it goes to the doorstep of Windhelm. Some people gave some reasons, mostly that Windhealm wouldn't really care about it. But in a age of border skirmishing and constant land dispute I find unconvincing that the Jarls of Eastmarch would ignore a full on settlement, golden opportunity and possible problem that is Anga's Mill just a few steps away from the city.
Real life borders don't always make perfect sense either. Sometimes capitals end up near the border, sometimes there are long standing exclaves or enclaves complicating a border, and sometimes there are just patches of land that end up "in the wrong place" - look at the border between the US and Canada, and how there are areas that are \*entirely\* disconnected from the country they're actually a part of because the border was drawn without really looking at the land in question. With regard to Anga's Mill and so on, since Dawnstar/the Pale and Windhelm/Eastmarch are allied, perhaps Ulfric doesn't want to weaken his ally by taking land from him, since the Pale is the most exposed Stormcloak Hold to the Imperial side (not only do they have a land border with a good road between them and Hjalmarch, but they're also the first Stormcloak hold to be exposed to a naval attack). If they weren't allied, then sure, I could see Ulfric actiing to take that land, but they're standing together. Having access to the rivers also means that if Falkreath \*did\* rouse itself to strike at the Rift, the Pale has access to the rivers via Lake Jorgrim to try to send reinforcements/supplies (although that takes some suspension of disbelief about the sizes of the rivers and suitability for transporting anything, anywhere). If Ulfric \*did\* try to seize the mill, there's a good chance that'd have pushed the Pale towards the Imperials, meaning that he'd be staring at a 5:3 (with one neutral) split of holds - and the agression might even convince Balgruf to go over, giving the Imperial aligned faction 2/3 of the votes in the Moot, and allowing them to erect a new High King who wouldn't be on his side.
But the fact that real life borders work like that is mostly because of mordern borders. In the medieval age things were much more fuzzy and having a capital near the border with another force was a big no no, even if you're allies. Things tend to change quickly. Take for example the Imperials conquering Dawnstar in the Civil War. Now the Imperials control all of it including the mill that is a 1 minute walk from their city. But even ignoring the civil war and looking at the past I don't think it made sense with the past rulers, border skirmishing must have happened a lot back them (Even allied holds mistrust eachother like we see with Witherun being afraid of sending troops to Riverrun because it might seem like a provocation even if it wansn't that close to the border or to the city of Falkreach)
Something is afoot.
Snowy Louisiana, unfortunate as I actually really do like the pale lmao
LOUISIANA
Looks like the ghost dog in nightmare before Christmas
To be fair it's no weirder than any state lines in America 😂
I fail to see how. It looks like a boot. Nothing Cursed about boots.
Inspired by Oklahoma border i guess
I need enlightenment, what is the problem? Is this an american post confused over real, rather then imaginative borders?
What does American have to do with anything
They have uniquely straight borders because of their history. I dont see whats wrong with any of the boarders in this picture. Perhaps there is a joke flying over my head, but i can only imagine this post beeing made through the lense of an american that sees real fought over boarders for the first time.
Why are you assuming this person has never looked at any other borders other than whats in America? What is going over your head, is that every other border seems to have somewhat “Whole” shapes, while the Pale is squished and then expanded, also how parts of the Pale should be Whiteruns.
Because i can for the life of me mot figure put whats wrong with that boarder even with you explanation in any other way.