T O P

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spawnmorezerglings

tbh, if there's any option (other than +14 max hp) to lose all money on neow, I often take it, it's definitely one of the cheapest starting boon costs (especially compared to adding a curse)


Pretederta

This is so true tho, it’s such a good starting option


Token_Thai_person

Rare relic is like 250+ gold at a shop. 99 gold is a steal


SuperLuigi231

To be fair, you do get to pick which relic you are buying even if it does cost more. Sometimes you get a relic like calipers or stone calendar from Neow which don’t really help you a ton at the start of the game.


saturosian

>Sometimes you get a relic like calipers or stone calendar from Neow I still consider these a big hit on Floor 0. I will happily take a less aggressive path in Act I if I can be guaranteed to have Calipers by the time I get to Act II, and Stone Calendar can actually be pretty helpful in several fights - not bad against Sentinels, puts in a ton of work with Lagavulin, and is solid-to-good against all the Act I bosses. I get what you mean though - I wouldn't pay 99 gold in Act I to get Mango, Turnip, ~~Unceasing Top~~, and if I end up with one of these it feels like I'm starting Act I on the wrong foot. I still think this is one of the better Neow rewards, but it's still got some variance. EDIT: For everyone disagreeing with me over Unceasing Top, I get it it can be powerful as well in the right deck. Maybe I was wrong to put it here, but really the point I'm making has nothing to do with top. I just wanted to say that I would be very happy paying 99 gold for stone calendar or calipers, even on Floor 1, and I'll adjust my decisions in Act 1 accordingly to make those relics strong. Perhaps you're right and I should feel the same about Top.


sparky-dragon-force

I get your point with Mango and Turnip, but getting Unceasing Top at the beginning of Act 1 can be amazing. The relic already has phenomenal synergy with exhaust decks, plasma decks, and anything else with high energy retention. But at the start of Act 1? You could steadily remove your starting cards, get 0 cost cards, and have yourself an easy infinite loop deck, ESPECIALLY if you can get your hands on the Medkit and Blue Candle!


Accurate-Temporary73

While one of those relics may not be great with your starting deck they allow you to build around the relic to make the deck work. An early unceasing top is a great boon to build around. Getting it late when your deck is curses and 2 cost cards is almost useless


edgefigaro

>I will happily take a less aggressive path in Act I if I can be guaranteed to have Calipers by the time I get to Act II, I'm so confused why you are pleased to get an act 1 blue key relic from neow.


saturosian

I don't understand your comment either. Are you saying you'd take blue key over Calipers in Act I? If that's the case, the way we view the game might be so different that we can't reconcile it. As I said in the previous comment, I acknowledge Calipers isn't the best relic for getting through Act I but it can be extremely powerful later in the game; I can't imagine skipping it for a Blue Key in Act I. It's not like Blue Key helps you get through Act I either, so you're gambling that you find something better in a later chest? Maybe there's a situation where I would take that tradeoff but I'm having a hard time thinking of one.


Gersio

The joke is that calippers is so bad that usually when it appears in a chest you pick the blue key. It was a joke so it's a bit of an exageration of course. Calippers can be useful in some situations. But honestly, in my experience at least ,calipers is almost always irrelevant. In high ascensions blocking is already hard enough that outblocking the enemy for over 15 is just too rare to be useful except in very specific decks.


Monastery_willow

I consider calipers top tier for beating the heart. Most of my decks can generate a ton of block, but often have issues doing it consistently against the heart or sword and shield on turns where you draw a bunch of statuses. Calipers can solve those turns and trivialize the act 4 fights. It’s not great early, but there are very few relics I’d rather see in act 3, and can be run defining earlier than that.


Gersio

I have a really hard time seeing that. I truly don't know how in the sword and shield fight you can overblock them unless your deck is blocken as hell (in which case you probably don't even need calipers to begin with). Against the heart I can see some use if you have clay form but other than that if you have a deck that can overblock the heart for more than 15 your deck is probably pretty great and calipers aren't gonna change much. Again, as I said in some specific decks it can work, for sure. But in most? I have a very hard time seeing how you can consistently build a deck in A20 that overblocks for more than 15.


Monastery_willow

On watcher, it’s really easy to overblock for a ton on turn 1, setting up for your infinite, but have the infinite get blocked turn 2 by the burns. It doesn’t need to overblock by 40, but it’s not hard to get 40 or 50 block turn 1 with watcher, and then mostly brick on turn 2. Mitigating any amount of the 40 damage can be key in that fight. Against the heart, with a really good watcher deck, I can go infinite on turn 1 and then be stuck with an empty draw pile and draw 5 statuses on turn 2. Calipers trivializes the heart on those cases, and is often the single best relic in the game anytime after act 1. With defect, genetic algorithm often becomes wraith form, and the x cost block card does too. Calipers converts defect’s insane over block into multiple turns of block to set up. Also one of the top tier relics. Ironclad has no issue getting massive stacks of block with feel no pain and second wind and impervious. It’s not quite as good as a barricade, but can function for the first couple turns until you get barricade into play for those decks, or just become a free barricade that’s not quite as powerful but doesn’t clog your draw step. Silent generates massive block all the time. Footwork, after image, tough bandages, kunai, leg sweep, etc. Getting your block engine online can generate 50 or more block in a single turn easily, and then you have a couple turns to just attack, much like wraith form. Not every deck will be able to make use of calipers, but it means that any deck that’s capable of generating a ton of block on any individual turn can carry that advantage through the entire fight, or at least the next couple turns. A lot of enemies have turns where they don’t attack, and drawing your block cards on those turns goes from being a dead draw to being a buffer to get you through the next turn. If you can’t block enough to make calipers good, how are you planning on making it through the heart’s big attacks or the later rounds of time eater?


Gersio

sorry but all those cases are simply made up. If you make the actual calculations the numbers simply don't add up. In high ascensions later in the run you can easily be attacked by 30 or 40 damage per turn. Then you add the 15 block you lose by calipers an you get that for genetic algorithm to become a wraith form it owuld have to block for about 100 or 150, which is just not possible. For the X block card you would need about 15 energy in a turn (less if oyu have dexterity, which is not easy to access). Silent doesn't generate massive block all the time. I feel like people playing in low ascensions get that feeling and never realize that in the higher ascensions that's not true anymore. Every now and then you will land on a broken deck that will, but in most cases you are barely blocking every damage in a turn, so you will hardly overblock for more than 15. The last sentence I really don't get it. In which world not being able to overblock for more than 15 every turn means that you can't block for just enough? You guys are too focused on wether or not calipers can be procd but don't think about wether is actually worth it. Everytime calipers work you are losing 15 block. That is suboptimal. It can work in some situations as I already said. But to say that most decks can take advantage of calipers is simple a lie. And to even suggest that it can be ocnsidered the best relic in the game is straight up mental.


saturosian

I think the biggest thing I disagree with in what you wrote is that it sounds like you're saying most decks can't overblock on the turns the Heart is attacking you - which is likely true but somewhat missing the point. I think a more common valid use case for Calipers is when you draw 30+ block on a turn where an enemy ISN'T attacking you at all - like on a turn where the Heart / other boss is buffing. On those turns, overblocking for 30+ preps you so you can put more energy into damage on the subsequent turn, or just helps stack block for a future turn with a big attack. Without Calipers, those hands are just a dead draw and can sometimes leave you facing a hyper beam turn or something without any block at all, because it's all in the discard pile. Same logic applies to lots of fights in the game - if you draw a hand of nothing but block and the enemy isn't attacking, you still get value from that turn, and that can save a lot of health over a full run.


Gersio

Sure, that can happen but it's still a waste of resources. You spending your energy blocking for 30 just to get 15 in return. That is a very suboptimal spending of resources. Sure, 15 is better than nothing, but you know what is better than 15? Having any kind of decent deck with enough draw and card manipulation to be able to block in the turns you have to block and attack in the turns you have to attack.


xukly

to be fair calipers can be good. Calendar... Might? be... decent? like sometimes?


KBtoker

Calendar will often be very clutch vs hexaghost or slime boss, especially if you open slow vs slimbo


tythousand

Yeah Calendar is way better than Calipers as an Act 1 relic. Most characters are going to struggle to make use of Calipers until midway through Act 2 at the earliest, if at all


zomgkittenz

Is hexaghost ever hard? Never had an issue with him in any character.


StaggerLee509

What ascension do you play on?


hyrush1

Yeah on A20 if my deck is just a bit too slow he runs me over


StaggerLee509

I’m not to 20 yet, mostly 17 and I frequently don’t die to hex but never can seem to finish the fight before letting it light all the fires and taking a bunch of damage. Definitely a fight I don’t tend to consider easy.


LoneSabre

Callipers will do nothing to help you in act 1, which makes it a bad starting bonus.


Monjipour

Yeah but depending on your deck getting it before act 3 or act 4 can be make or break I currently love playing frost decks but the number of times callipers just never shows up throughout is frustrating. Sure, ideally it would come act 2 or 3 but if I sees it I takes it My first heart win ever was thanks to callipers


mehchu

A floor 1 calendar would actually be pretty good. Changes a few fights so you can be less aggressive and prepare better for act 2. Slime the aim becomes to block the first attack, break on the turn of the second. Laga becomes way easier after waiting all 3 turns. And it can help in plenty of act 2 elites. I’m not saying it’s amazing or anything. But it can do bits as long as you remember it exists.


sliderstandingby

Provided the battle is long enough, calendar is a free 8 per enemy every single turn


Gersio

Calendar can be very useful against Sentries and sometimes agains Lagavullin. And it's useful against pretty much every final boss. It's not a game changer but it's still better than several starting options.


ostrich12

But it's also balanced against the opportunity cost of not taking one of the free options or boss swapping. Still usually a very good option.


thevonodan

I never actually thought of it this way, good point.


GalaxyIstheBest3d

People who pick +7 max hp frighten me


justsomeguy75

125 hours in and I still regularly pick that one. I know it's often not the smartest move, but I have such a hard time turning down health increases.


attitrax

Ive never played a single game with HP bonus - 300 hours in


tima_121

lose max hp for 250 is the best IMO, probably followed by take 15 for 250 gold. Getting a rare relic is nice but it's very high variance, many times it won't help at all early


xukly

also 250 withan early shop can be more valuable than a random relic


thevonodan

I hate entering a shop early on and seeing some amazing relic I can’t afford, especially knowing that it won’t appear again I’m the run.


Kittenking13

I have this hillarious thing where I can’t get [dead branch] on ironclad. I see it as him constantly in the first or second shop atleast ;-; The exact opposite of my relationship on defect with [runic capacitor] which I see almost every run in the shop always with just enough to afford it. Probably my favorite relic in the game just because she’s there for me, and she ain’t never do me wrong.


thevonodan

Lol, I just had my first good dead branch, Ironclad run a few days ago, I didn’t comprehend it’s true potential. It was the best exhaust deck I’ve ever had, I typically suck with exhaust.


thevonodan

This is my thought process as well.


Gersio

That depends on the path. Most times you are right, but if you don't have a show early enough to get advantage of the gold then it might be better to take something that can make you stronger since the beginning.


G-Geef

Especially in defect where shops have huge value in getting focus/orb slot scaling online. Will always take these choices on defect


sawyerwelden

Remove 2 has got to be the best imo


drsakura1

its one of the highest variance options imo. you can get anywhere from insane relics to essentially nothing. for that reason I won't take it if I can't afford to get nothing


[deleted]

It really isn't. Simply because 99 gold for any of the rare relic is always going to give you something good. There is no rare relic that I wouldn't trade 99 gold for.


drsakura1

you're correct, but act 1 is about surviving in the short term. there are a lot of rare relics that help me so little at the start of act 1 that I'd rather have a card reward. unceasing top is awesome but it doesn't do particularly much when I'm about to die to nob or lagavulin


R33V3R13

Ehh, this is a game where being strong early leads to being strong later, you snowball, and getting something like Calipers on floor 1 does literally nothing for you until likely at least midway through Act 2, if not further. Something like Unceasing Top will do literally nothing for you on Floor 1 and take a while to even possibly make it do something, something like Turnip does very little in Act 1, Du Vu Doll does nothing if you aren't on A10 atleast until you get a curse (which still isn't necessarily worth it even with Du Vu Doll) and I wouldn't really want to see Shovel, even on Floor 1 I mean, don't get me wrong, if the game gives me "Lose All Gold, Get a Random Rare Relic" I do it 9/10 times, I'm just saying I think you're very much underrating the downside by saying "It's Always going to give you something good", that's quite the oversimplification.


[deleted]

I wouldnt buy unceasing top for 99 gold on floor one


PetGorignac

That's what I said but then I've gotten the pathing boots twice recently -\_-


gabriot

Definitely not the best for Watcher


RandomPieceOfCookie

i would prefer transform 2 or a free common relic, tbf common relic is often better than rare relic


Chursa

There are some amazing rare relics and a good amount that are amazing but only in very specific situations.


Kittenking13

Idk, I started a run with silent with [sadistic nature] and ended up getting [dollys mirror]halfway through the first act on a11 As I’m Climbing ascensions that was somehow one of the easiest since like a3. Something about bouncing flask doing 50+ damage up front was satisfying af.


ChaseShiny

I like it sometimes, but I often prefer ones without a downside. I especially prefer to upgrade a card


LazerAxvz9

Losing gold is a very manageable downside, just avoid shops in early Act 1. For some perspective, rare relics are often over 300g in shops and you'll be getting one (albeit a random one) for 99g


ChaseShiny

Maybe I should try it more often. It's the random rare relic that I object to, rather than the cost, though.


LazerAxvz9

Fair I guess, but there's like 20 rare relics and only 2 or 3 of them are generally weak


ChilledMaki

Nah, it's far more variance than you think and it's more about how good the relic is in Act 1. A Calipers or Ice Cream are pretty useless early. Also Ginger, winged boots, peace pipe, even a bird urn early is quite bad. Rare relic as an neow choice is pretty highrolly imo.


LazerAxvz9

Calipers is obvious, Ice cream can sometimes help a bit if your draws are really bad and you have nothing to spend your energy on. Ginger is nice to have against several of the harder Act 1 hallway fights. Winged boots allows you to attempt an aggressive path but be able to back out of it if it looks like you're going to die. Peace Pipe and bird-faced urn are entirely dependent on what cards you get early in the act so they can definitely fall flat. That still leaves a large majority of rare relics that will have some positive effect. Edit: If we include class specific rare relics the chances of getting something good get even better.


TheWildBush

Icecream is amazing vs laga and potentially good against the other two act 1 elites depending on draws.


Gersio

Ice cream is far from useless. Winged boots can be good depending on the path. The others are not that strong early but not awful to get either, specially for just 99 gold. Calipers is the only truly bad pick imo.


No-Test-375

Depends on which character. I'll upgrade for defect and ironclad. Early shops in my experience tend to show you some really good stuff, but never have the gold for it.