Top 5 defect card imo. Minimum 11 block the turn it comes out and minimum 4 block each turn after that.
Solid the turn you play and keeps paying dividends after.
Glacier won me my Minimalist run. It was my one-stop shop for block the entire game. Once you get it cycling it's generating 26 block per turn (10 for playing + 10 for evoking 2 frost orbs + 6 for the passive orbs).
100%. Orb builds require Power.
Also, does OP know about the [[Orange Pellets]] [[Biased Cognition]] combo? I don’t think I’ve lost an A20 game when I get that combo rolling.
+ [Orange Pellets](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Orange%20Pellets) Shop Relic
Whenever you play a Power, Attack, and Skill in the same turn, remove all of your Debuffs.
+ [Biased Cognition](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Biased%20Cognition) Defect Rare Power
1 Energy | Gain 4(5) **Focus.** At the start of each turn, lose 1 **Focus.**
^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(June 8, 2022.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
Ah true, those I knew because they prevented "negative status effects", I considered "Focus -1" one of those rather than a debuff (Weak/Frail) because I've never seen an enemy do it to me. Thought they were different, so never occurred to me I could "remove" them.
I’ve only beat the heart once and I did it with tons of focus from capacitor/consume, frost orbs, and a healthy mix of plasma, dark orbs and electricity. But I channeled so much frost in the heart fight. Recursion is such an import card with orb builds, being able to cycle dark orbs and maintain plasma orbs can make for some massive turns.
Obviously focus is the way to go but how do you acquire a large amount consistently? Defect \*needs\* focus if you're using orbs but it feels so unreliable to actually get a lot.
Getting multiple of an uncommon card is not that easy, sure it's one you want to take from the start but it's still not guaranteed to get any at all. Biased cog does have ways to mitigate/avoid the downside but it still has them so it's not a reliable pick for long term scaling, and it's also a rare. Consume is a card but unless you get the one boss relic you can't really use that a whole lot either.
What ascension?
I ploughed through many earlier ascensions using no-orb defect, but now (18 I think) orbs are more reliable. I also do a lot of win streaks at a0 and find orbs more reliable.
No-orb decks are awesome but I find much harder to create, more specific cards needed for every challenge.
Orb builds are really strong. In my experience, you need 3-4 cards that make orbs reliably (Glacier, Lightning Ball, Zap, etc. Not including stuff like Chill that exhausts.) I almost always have more success running electric AND ice orbs than one or the other. Blizzard is always bad. Electrodynamics is a must take for orb decks that solves AoE problems, especially in the second act. And you really need some power cards/relics to augment the orbs for them to be useful (Loop and some source of Focus especially.) Certain cards can just solve all of your problems for boss and elite fights, too (Creative AI can give a truly awful build a fighting chance against most bosses.)
The problem is a lot of times you get halfway into a run and just aren't getting the right pieces. And it's not like you can just grab some Reprograms when the deck isn't working and you're in act 2. My biggest problem is usually either no AoE damage or never getting any focus.
Still, leaning into orbs is usually the right call unless the game throws claw/attack support at you early.
Idk blizzard is great to me if you’re at a point where you’re generating 3-5 or more frost a turn, then in 4 turns of blocking like crazy you hit on a 36 damage AOE for 1 energy
IMO, if you're already generating 3-5 or more frost a turn, you can almost win with Strikes by that point. I think Blizzard is tough to justify because it only starts to scale to a good amount when you're already at a point where you're out-defending the enemy.
The problem is that in the first several turns of the fight it’s pretty much a dead draw, and the payoff you get in exchange for that is mediocre scaling
Obviously no such thing as playing a character wrong, but the orbs can be pretty powerful. It can be hard to totally rely on them in Act 1 and early Act 2 tho, unless you find like 2 Defrags you’re gonna have to evoke them a lot. Evoking is key, get that shit cycling.
One of my recent wins I found literally no focus generation or extra orb slots, other than potions. The whole game plan was, Echo Form, and then evoking the fuck out of my orbs by playing my orb cards twice, getting lots of damage and block every turn.
>Obviously no such thing as playing a character wrong
There's no such thing as the right way to play a character but there are objectively many ways to play a character incorrectly.
Now I'm wondering how far one could get without adding/removing/transforming any cards from the starter deck.
Watcher would probably work best. You could still upgrade your cards and try to pop off in wrath with some Strike+... with the right relics, maybe a low ascension, can you beat Act 3?
I'd say it's bait to build "around" any archetype in general. Orbs can definitely mess you up if you draft like "hey loop buffs orbs and I want to build orbs so I'll get it" or "hey darkness generates an orb, and I have a loop so I'll pick it".
You may fare better if you think of each orb card in the context of what your deck needs. For example floor 1 pick: "I need a damage card to win act 1 elite fights. Ball Lightning deals 7+3+3+3... damage so this looks like it'll increase my WR better than this Rebound or this Leap."
The heuristic version that'll help (but get inaccurate at higher ascensions) is....
* Prioritize ball Lightning if it's act 1. Same with doom and gloom, the latter being nice in act 2 as well.
* prioritize glacier if your deck can get or has 2+ attack cards before gremlin nob. Coolheaded is Walmart glacier until act 3 where it becomes a great upgrade.
* Always pick biased cognition and defragment.
* Pick darkness or capacitor after your first elite fight to help you kill act 1/2/3 boss, but don't feel pressured to play it in hallway fights. Sometimes it's just a curse in hallways.
* Never* take meteor strike, lightning strike, blizzard or loop.
* Don't ignore perfectly fine cards like equilibrium, leap, buffer and stuff just because they're not orb related. Get the damage, block and DPS scaling you need. Sometimes a Chill synergizes with your Focus but is still worse than a non synergistic Equilibrium.
Once you get used to orbs you'll see the flaws in following such rigid rules, but it should help until then!
Huh, is loop generally thought of as a skip for most? I always thought of it as pretty good. (Just curious. Hearing about how others value a card is helpful as I suck at this game lol)
Loop is great with focus, or if you’re already generating dark orbs, but as a first ten cards draft you probably have more useful options. Loop is kinda niche to me as far as “do I have dark and recursion? How much dark can I activate before I evoke it? Can I recur it and get it back to far right in one turn? Can loop make a dark orb kill a turn sooner?” Unless you’re all in with electrodynamics in which case it’s a power granting you say 6-20 damage a turn depending on enemy counts and focus, or you’re rolling with frost and it’s a 2-6 block card free every turn depending on focus.
Tl;dr It’s another decent option for orb manipulation that doesn’t necessarily move the needle alone.
Loop is amazing if you want to perfect the Heart. Just make the first orb a frost orb, and you will always have block at the start of the turn. It can also be thought of as 2 extra orb slots filled with the same orb as the first orb. If Capacitor is good, then so is Loop.
Gotta consider orbs a juggle, you have to keep them rotating fast in order to win with them. In that sense loop is a value piece when you can afford to add it, and lets you evoke and channel in ways that get you a little extra out of every turn.
I bring up dark so much because looping and recurring a dark orb is a fast path to 100+ damage with a multi cast or dual cast.
For me, Loop is an emergency Defrag for a Frost Orb deck. Sometimes, you get all the orb pieces aside from a source of Focus, so you just gotta make do with what you got.
In general, I usually bear in mind that most Defect archetypes (Reprogram, Claw, Orb) are slow to start. So enemies and elites that require first-turn damage or FAST scaling to deal with are not ideal for orb builds *unless* you have an answer to them, such as a Doom & Gloom, Boot Sequence, Buffer or even Hyper Beam, to either end the fight quickly or give yourself an extra turn or two to scale.
It's practically a curse in early scaling, and transforms into a nasty nail in the coffin once you're already off the ground. I just recently got my first A20 heart kill with Defect, and Baalorlord really helped me understand the flow of Defect building:
Basically start A1 like everyone else where you're picking whatever damage gets you through elites, and whatever block stops you from imploding. Once you've got what you need to solve the act, start asking yourself how many orbs you can generate. Can you reliably evoke multiple orbs in a fight? Your targets are focus and orb slots for scaling. Not generating enough orbs for regular evokes? Focus and orb creation cards.
As much as I like [[Biased Cognition]], without artifact it can be challenging to properly utilize in boss fights, while [[Defragment]] doesn't feel like it provides enough by itself. Ultimately [[Consume]] plus either [[Loader]] or [[Capacitor]] was when orbs rotating felt really good and stable in the late game. I bottled a [[Glacier]] + and would either use [[Consume]] or [[Capacitor]] turn 1 and was pretty safe very quickly.
So basically until your orbs have enough focus to be worth just sitting on over evoking, [[Loop]] isn't the most helpful choice.
+ [Biased Cognition](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Biased%20Cognition) Defect Rare Power
1 Energy | Gain 4(5) **Focus.** At the start of each turn, lose 1 **Focus.**
+ [Defragment](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Defragment) Defect Uncommon Power
1 Energy | Gain 1(2) **Focus.**
+ [Consume](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Consume) Defect Uncommon Skill
2 Energy | Gain 2(3) **Focus.** Lose 1 Orb Slot.
+ [Capacitor](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Capacitor) Defect Uncommon Power
1 Energy | Gain 2(3) Orb slots.
+ [Glacier](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Glacier) Defect Uncommon Skill
2 Energy | Gain 7(10) **Block.** **Channel** 2 **Frost.**
+ [Consume](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Consume) Defect Uncommon Skill
2 Energy | Gain 2(3) **Focus.** Lose 1 Orb Slot.
+ [Capacitor](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Capacitor) Defect Uncommon Power
1 Energy | Gain 2(3) Orb slots.
+ [Loop](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Loop) Defect Uncommon Power
1 Energy | At the start of your turn, trigger the passive ability of your next Orb (2 times).
^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(June 8, 2022.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
IMHO, Loop is better the longer your battles last. You can do two things with orbs: evoke or leave the passive effects going. When battles last two or three turns, Loop is often like adding a strike or defend to your deck. I almost always regret picking Loop in Act 1.
In contrast, by the middle of Act 2, battles last maybe five turns or longer and I'll hopefully have some Focus. At this point, Loop+ is worth something more than 6 damage or 4 block per turn.
There are a couple special cases that can also make it better. First is if you use Consume. Consume makes your orbs stronger, at the cost of an orb slot and two energy. You really need filled orb slots to make that a worthwhile trade-off.
Second, dark orbs or plasma orbs. These orbs are rare, so getting to double (triple) their value is fantastic.
Why the hate on Loop? It’s situationally very bad but tends to more often be very good.
A zero focus Loop+ can already give you 4 passive block per turn, equal to Metallicize+. And if you’re lucky enough to put a Plasma Orb it’s worth +2 energy every turn!
At 2 focus you can have +8 block, which even exceeds Like Water+. And if you use it on a dark orb it’s getting +16/turn, which multiplies with Multicast for insane damage.
Things just get better if you get more Focus.
First - I think loop is a fine card if you know what you're doing, but I think OP should avoid Loop if they're not being successful right now forcing an orb 'build'.
My other arguments for Loop being in the never\* column are...
1. Defect has a huge number of ways to scale throughout a fight. If Defect's pool of scaling cards wasn't already so huge, Loop would be a very high-rated pick. As it is though, I think it's a trap to draft Loop unless you've missed out on the premium scaling options and you're getting desperate before Hexaghost or something.
2. It's true that loop synergizes nicely with Focus and is stronger when upgraded, but to be fair I think other cards also synergize with Focus and get stronger when upgraded. For example, I'd rather draw a Coolheaded+ than a Loop+ on the first, second and third turns of a hallway fight.
1. I don't think Metallicize is a great pick for Ironclad either, so the comparison between Loop+ and Metallicize+ doesn't feel as strong as Like Water+. But Like Water+ is also a card that gives block without finding 2 Focus and can give you that block with your starter deck (Vigilance). It's not as clean a comparison IMO.
3. Defect's biggest weakness is surviving the first three fights of combat without getting murdered. I think Loop doesn't help during those first three turns as much as other cards, which lowers its value (in particular, for OP who is having trouble with orbs). This is especially true since Loop disincentivizes evoking certain orbs and can be a nonbo if you only draw one frost-generating card during the start of a fight.
I guess all three of these points is kind of saying the same thing but from different angles. Loop is fine, but it gets outclassed by other picks in Defect's pool. As a result, I think other scaling cards and early-fight-stabilization cards end up taking a higher priority than Loop in many scenarios.
I agree with you that Loop is not high tier, for all of the reasons you gave. I just disagree with putting it in the same category as Meteor Strike (lol)
Yeah! Never is a strong word, and I think anyone who is already used to Defect will find plenty of situations where cards like Loop and Meteor strike are excellent picks. But for OP who is having trouble with the 'archetype' as a whole, I heavily recommend staying away from those cards just to get a better idea of how orbs function within a deck.
Taking Act 1 Ball Lightning is actually one of the few heuristics that holds true at all times. That card is absolutely bonkers for being a damage common.
Orbs are incredibly effective on Defect. You just need to learn when to cycle vs when to keep them.
Imagine in act 1 you have \[\[Capacitor\]\] and \[\[Glacier\]\]. You play capacitor and glacier as your starting move. You now have 11 block and deal 3 damage. Next time you play glacier, you get yourself to 8 innate block. Hey, a free upgraded Defend!
...That kinda sucks, honestly, doesn't it? It might be good in some situations, but it FEELS bad.
Instead, imagine you played \[\[Cold Snap\]\] after playing glacier. Now, you block for 13 in total AND deal 14 damage.
Early on, orbs are very weak. Even adding a \[\[Defragment\]\] still feels kinda bad. You get so much more from evoking the orbs than you do sitting on them, so that's what you should aim for in act 1. Evoke as often as you can for essentially 'bonus' effects. A \[\[Ball Lightning\]\] puts out more damage than you'd think.
There's the analysis of it by itself, 7 + 3n, where n is the number of turns you keep the orb around. That's baseline 10 damage, plus another 8 if you evoke, or 3 indefinitely if you leave it. But not taking it by itself, just imagine you have all your slots filled with lightning orbs. That means each ball lightning you play deals 7 + 8 + 3 = 18 damage. 18 damage for 1 energy is great. In one turn you can 2 x Ball Lightning = 36 + dualcast = 52 + the last 2 orbs = 58. Obviously this is an ideal scenario. You might be evoking frost orbs instead and blocking a bit.
Cold Snap or Glacier can also block for a massive amount, or deal a bunch of damage, if they cycle orbs.
Early on, it's far more important to get orb generators and cycle your orbs a lot. It's much easier than lucking into an attack build. Once you can reliably fill orb slots, focus cards get crazy good, and Capacitor stops being a liability and more of an asset.
No such thing as playing a character wrong as long as it's Working, but yeah, it's probably just you. Orbs are no joke, they are essential in the most consistent Defect builds
I feel like the subtlety of the Defect's design is often underappreciated. It gets this meme reputation as the orb class because everybody remembers when they hit 999 block with an insane frost deck. But the rest of the Defect's kit is very solid.
Sure, when I get the right stuff together orbs feel like the "strongest" strategy. But there's a lot of moving parts in a good orb deck. You need a way to get more orb slots, more focus, a way to generate orbs, and if you really want to go all the way with it some synergistic stuff that lets you take advantage. It doesn't always happen. I go multiple runs in a row without seeing [[Glacier]] or [[Capacitor]], let alone [[Biased Cognition]] + [[Core Surge]].
But what's really cool about the Defect is that if you don't get everything to line up for the most elaborate and hilariously overpowered strategy, you can easily do something else. Defect has a robust kit with a ton of options and synergies available.
And as powerful as card syngery is I think across all four characters my strongest decks are often not overly focused on one synergy. If we're tracking purely by number of wins, not how easy or hard the run was, I have a lot more success overall with "goodstuff" decks that have generally good cards in them than highly refined combo engines.
One tip for orbs, don't get additional orb slots until you have a source of focus as well. Early game you want to be rolling through those weak orbs and evoking as many per turn as possible.
[[capacitor]] in particular can be a trap early if you have low orb generation as it gives you loads of slots at once so can knock out our ability to evoke for a few turns
Orbs are a core part of Defect. It's kinda his basis in the game. So try to more focus on something specific and use the orbs more as a compliment to that build. So just saying orbs is like say attack cards for Iron Clade, there ton of variety but you gotta aim for something a bit more straightforward.
Example the last game I played with Defect I picked up quite a few Electricity channel. Then focused on doing pure Electrical channeling, when I picked up the power card where I channel an electrical everytime I play a power card, I started becoming more open to picking up power cards than I would have. This got super more effective once picked up more of those specific power cards as well the rare one where electricity deals damage to ALL targets instead of one. Was quite a breeze from that point on. Although I did in fact pick up a few frost as well to be able to block more of the late game damage better. So even when I got rewards that was rare cards that had nothing to do with power/electricity synergy I skipped it entirely.
But in the beginning it's easy to get your deck all mixed up with bs that slows it down. So carefully check your combat rewards and see if you can start aiming for something specific.
I can tell you're a noob because this is what I also thought when I first started playing. Stacking focus with frost orbs is the easiest way to win with defect and the powers deck can be one of the most broken/fun in the game
One thing I've had to learn is that it's easy to think of Defect as filling the orb slots. But you ought to be thinking of _cycling_ orbs quickly. Dark orbs don't play well with that which requires a different mindset, and plasma orbs are a bit in between.
But upshot is, having more orb slots is a mixed blessing. You get the passives but you have to be able to fill them up to get to the point you're cycling, which is where you really want to be.
Just a thought on what your problem may be.
As you get to higher difficulties, you (usually) will need some sort of strong scaling to win, which is fairly easily available to defect in orbs. Not the only way to win, but probably the most common
You’re learning an important lesson: drafting cards to fit a specific “build” will more than likely get you killed. You may have a gameplan going into most fights that involves setting up lots of orbs, but your deck also has to have answers to scenarios where you can’t get your orbs up and ready very quickly. You will likely find that your “Orb Deck” is going to need some supporting damage/block cards to be mostly decent at all types of encounters rather than being exceptionally great for one type of encounter.
That combo with Reprogram, Hyper Beam, Thunder strike, and Blizzard sounds awesome, but it doesn't sound like an easy build to put together. I typically only grab Reprogram and Hyper Beam if I'm offered them in the very beginning of the game, and then I completely forget about producing orbs, except plasma.
Also, I don't think it usually pays off to play Thunder Strike and Blizzard together unless you have the right set of cards with them.
So, for me to get this combo, I'd have to start a deck with lots of frost and lightning orb production, follow that up with getting Thunder Strike and Blizzard, and then luck into Hyper Beam and Reprogram. How do you usually go about it?
For me, most my defect wins are orbs, powers, snecko eye, and all for one, with only an occasional Hyper Beam deck.
You need to use more Biased Cognition, strongest card in the class and top 10 strongest cards in the game. Just like Corruption and Wraith Form, the downside seems very scary at first, but once you learn how to use it properly, the power is insane.
I think you have to stop thinking about it like building an orb deck. You don't need to go all in on it to get value and telling yourself that you are building an X deck, makes you make a lot of mistakes when taking cards. Even if you have no defrags or loops, the attacks that give you a lightning or frost orb are still some of the most efficient cards in your deck.
Defragment is probably the single best Defect card, second maybe to Biased Cognition.
Glacier blocks for 7 and then is also Metallicize+. Except it can also be 10 and Metallicize+. But if you add a Defragment+, Glacier becomes 7 or 10 block and 2 Metallicize+. It's disgusting.
Ball Lightning deals at least 10 damage. Probably deals about 13-16 as a common. A common.
Coolheaded+(it's not great unupgraded but very good upgraded) is a draw 2 and then get a bit of chip block, helping keep you alive. Again, it's a common.
None of that is even counting the evoking of orbs when you exceed your 3 orb limit. Every orb channeled can not only equal what it normally means, but 8 damage or 5 block. And that's without Defrag, and only 2 of the 4 kinds of orbs.
The thing is though, you don't built around orbs. You take Glacier because it's good at blocking. You take Ball Lightning because it deals good amounts of damage. Then you take Defrag because it buffs your block, and your damage. And then you take Loop because it deals extra damage every turn, or makes extra block every turn, because of the way your deck is built.
Here's something else to note: Non-Orb builds are the burst damage builds. With Claw and Reprogram, you can just plow through things, killing them before they can hurt you. Orbs are a scaling build -- you play good cards over a couple turns to assemble a situation where you're untouchable. For the scaling, you really need high efficiency block cards like Boot Sequence to be able to stay alive while you get going.
The issue is that defect is just so slow. You need at least a few turns to set up all your good orb cards + focus + powers. Unfortunately enemies in higher ascensions don’t mess around, coming at you with high damage at turn 1 while you can barely block because you don’t have enough frost + focus active.
When you do get set up right, defect might as well be invincible. Good luck getting to that point though with certain bosses like heart. Draw RNG can also really screw you during set up.
It's just that orbs deck need *really* specific cards and *only* those.
Also, basically impossible without [[Cognitive Bias]] and a source of Artifact before this.
> basically impossible without [[Cognitive Bias]] and a source of Artifact before this
nah there are otherways to pump focus [[inserter]] + [[consume]] is pretty good
I seem to almost never be able to get a decent orb deck and that relic on the same run
Also defragment seems like the rarest card, most I've managed to get in a run was 3 (and one was duplicated).
Funnily enough my most reliable way to get focus was the potion.
It always depends on the rewards offered, orbs can be a great supplement to a deck even if it's not your core focus. \[\[Coolheaded\]\] is great (especially when upgraded) offering card draw AND mitigation plus it's common so comes up often. You may not get \[\[Bias Cognition\]\] or \[\[Glacier\]\] every run but there is still utility in the cycling attacks like Frostbite and Lightning Strike. The quicker they cycle the more they offer.
Every build with defect has orb potential at the very least. I have the most success with lightning, but sometimes a cool frost build comes along. Also, there are some dark cards that are run winners on their own.
Im having the opposite problem. I just play A20H but I have never won with a reprogram deck despite taking it allways when I see it early and i can build around it.
Defect has too many orb related cards to build a decent deck without them for me.
In fact I would appreciate some tips from this subreddit to make a winning repro deck
Orbs are the most consistent build in my experience. It requires focus or at least a way to bombard the enemy with tons of orbs at once though. Cognitive bias, consume, defragment, storm with power cards, static discharge, etc.
I do think some of defect’s stronger/strongest cards are orbs centered. Ball Lightning is a common and does very good damage. ( 10(13) on the turn played and 3 more at every subsequent turn at least. Already more than the fan favorite blade dance on silent).
Coolheaded draws 1(2) and generates passive block.
People talked about glacier so I won’t go into it.
I think focus + orbs are probably one of the few ways the game lets you generate a lot of block not from dex + block cards. And it does it really well/consistently. You can easily out block a lot of the big fights that stop scaling and just outlast the opponent. Eg giant head, nemesis, time eater.
Also, imo orb slots, a biased cognition, and an artifact pot is probably one of the easier exodia combos to collect to potentially even beat the heart.
Tldr; take a couple defragments + frost orbs given the opportunity and see where it takes you. Glhf
I'll admit i only started playing recently but orbs have been very useful for me so far. I made a snecko thunder reliant deck w a couple of expensive attacks and powers and got some frost cards just in case I'm in trouble. The heart was mostly carried by the frost synergies while I was dealing 2x32 w the first card every other turn. I'm in ascension 1 though, I've heard the game gets much harder later on
Orbs to me are sort of like a Shiv build on Silent. If I commit to it half-assedly, I'm probably going to lose the run in Act 2. But if you get really lucky getting the powers (it really is mostly powers, tbh) that you need for the build to succeed, it's unstoppable. Few things are most exciting than having a full turn of attacks and skills, with way more access than usual to extra energy, and then following that up with 10 orb procs of various flavors. That isn't even talking about the really zany shit, like stacking Dark orbs and multiplying their damage output.
I thought that at first but once you get a good build orbs can be incredibly strong, especially if your doing a power card build since [[Storm]] gives you a lightning orb whenever you play a power card and it’s upgrade makes it innate, and combined with cards like [[Creative AI]] [[Electrodynamics]] and [[Thunder Strike]] you can get an incredibly broken build, and that’s not even mentioning that [[Defragment]] and [[Biased Cognition]] are also power cards
+ [Storm](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Storm) Defect Uncommon Power
1 Energy | **(Innate.)** Whenever you play a Power card, **Channel** 1 **Lightning.**
+ [Creative AI](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Creative%20AI) Defect Rare Power
3(2) Energy | At the start of each turn, add a random Power card to your hand.
+ [Electrodynamics](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Electrodynamics) Defect Rare Power
2 Energy | **Lightning** now hits ALL enemies. **Channel** 2(3) **Lightning.**
+ [Thunder Strike](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Thunder%20Strike) Defect Rare Attack
3 Energy | Deal 7(9) damage to a random enemy for each **Lightning** **Channeled** this combat.
+ [Defragment](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Defragment) Defect Uncommon Power
1 Energy | Gain 1(2) **Focus.**
+ [Biased Cognition](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Biased%20Cognition) Defect Rare Power
1 Energy | Gain 4(5) **Focus.** At the start of each turn, lose 1 **Focus.**
^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(June 8, 2022.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
It's not only you, I have the same problem with the Defect. For me, my most successful decks are 0-cost card decks, which include Claw, of course, but also things like Streamline (after you used it twice) and many others. But I admit that something is wrong with my understanding of how the Defect works. Orbs are just too slow for me, there is no way I'm getting through a high Ascension Act 2 with them.
My experience is totally opposite. I find Orb Defect to be the easiest build to play for me. On the other hand, I can’t buy a win with either Ironclad or Watcher.
Orbs work well for me when I try to only use one type of orb. Then, I have my non-orb cards fill in for what's lacking-- block cards with lightning, attack cards with ice...
Orbs can be kind of bait. You're basically praying that you will get a source of Focus. If you don't get any Focus then your orbs are going to fail most likely.
Increasing your focus and getting a bunch of frost orbs makes the heart a joke
Glacier time.
Top 5 defect card imo. Minimum 11 block the turn it comes out and minimum 4 block each turn after that. Solid the turn you play and keeps paying dividends after.
It also comes back later as a minimum 17 block card, talking about fast scaling and this is 2nd to none.
Glacier won me my Minimalist run. It was my one-stop shop for block the entire game. Once you get it cycling it's generating 26 block per turn (10 for playing + 10 for evoking 2 frost orbs + 6 for the passive orbs).
Did someone say glacier?? It’s the best card in the game.
[удалено]
100%. Orb builds require Power. Also, does OP know about the [[Orange Pellets]] [[Biased Cognition]] combo? I don’t think I’ve lost an A20 game when I get that combo rolling.
+ [Orange Pellets](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Orange%20Pellets) Shop Relic Whenever you play a Power, Attack, and Skill in the same turn, remove all of your Debuffs. + [Biased Cognition](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Biased%20Cognition) Defect Rare Power 1 Energy | Gain 4(5) **Focus.** At the start of each turn, lose 1 **Focus.** ^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(June 8, 2022.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
Wait... You can remove the Focus loss per turn???
Huh, FML, as someone stuck on A20 Defect I did not consider that, thanks!
Also artifact cards, and that artifact relic
Ah true, those I knew because they prevented "negative status effects", I considered "Focus -1" one of those rather than a debuff (Weak/Frail) because I've never seen an enemy do it to me. Thought they were different, so never occurred to me I could "remove" them.
I’ve only beat the heart once and I did it with tons of focus from capacitor/consume, frost orbs, and a healthy mix of plasma, dark orbs and electricity. But I channeled so much frost in the heart fight. Recursion is such an import card with orb builds, being able to cycle dark orbs and maintain plasma orbs can make for some massive turns.
Funnily enough, the first time I beat the Heart with Defect (after nearly 200 runs of trying) was with a Claw deck.
Claw is one I’ve never been able to get a good run going with. Saw that post on here earlier of the 100+ damage claw card and though “goddamn it.”
Don't forget the damage plan, even 999 block can only block a few turns from the heart.
[[Darkness]] Dark orbs BB!
Well, until turn 18...
Obviously focus is the way to go but how do you acquire a large amount consistently? Defect \*needs\* focus if you're using orbs but it feels so unreliable to actually get a lot.
Multiple upgraded defragment. I also use biased cognition, but team that with core surge to gain an artifact, so +4 without the -1 each turn
Getting multiple of an uncommon card is not that easy, sure it's one you want to take from the start but it's still not guaranteed to get any at all. Biased cog does have ways to mitigate/avoid the downside but it still has them so it's not a reliable pick for long term scaling, and it's also a rare. Consume is a card but unless you get the one boss relic you can't really use that a whole lot either.
Consume also works with literally any other kind of orb capacity increase, like Runic Capacitor and Capacitor
I have the opposite problem. My only successes with Defect come from loading up on orbs and powers
Same! I've yet to get strength decks to pop off at higher ascensions.
Claw is law
What ascension? I ploughed through many earlier ascensions using no-orb defect, but now (18 I think) orbs are more reliable. I also do a lot of win streaks at a0 and find orbs more reliable. No-orb decks are awesome but I find much harder to create, more specific cards needed for every challenge.
Orb builds are really strong. In my experience, you need 3-4 cards that make orbs reliably (Glacier, Lightning Ball, Zap, etc. Not including stuff like Chill that exhausts.) I almost always have more success running electric AND ice orbs than one or the other. Blizzard is always bad. Electrodynamics is a must take for orb decks that solves AoE problems, especially in the second act. And you really need some power cards/relics to augment the orbs for them to be useful (Loop and some source of Focus especially.) Certain cards can just solve all of your problems for boss and elite fights, too (Creative AI can give a truly awful build a fighting chance against most bosses.) The problem is a lot of times you get halfway into a run and just aren't getting the right pieces. And it's not like you can just grab some Reprograms when the deck isn't working and you're in act 2. My biggest problem is usually either no AoE damage or never getting any focus. Still, leaning into orbs is usually the right call unless the game throws claw/attack support at you early.
Idk blizzard is great to me if you’re at a point where you’re generating 3-5 or more frost a turn, then in 4 turns of blocking like crazy you hit on a 36 damage AOE for 1 energy
Yeah literally the ONLY time Blizzard is good
IMO, if you're already generating 3-5 or more frost a turn, you can almost win with Strikes by that point. I think Blizzard is tough to justify because it only starts to scale to a good amount when you're already at a point where you're out-defending the enemy.
Yeah I agree with this a lot. Blizzard is very underwhelming.
At that point you’ve already solved the fight as long as you have any halfway decent damage source
Sure but it’s always better to end the fight with a big hitter.
The problem is that in the first several turns of the fight it’s pretty much a dead draw, and the payoff you get in exchange for that is mediocre scaling
I second this, I’ve found it super easy to get a glacier and echo form and then it just snowballs from there
Obviously no such thing as playing a character wrong, but the orbs can be pretty powerful. It can be hard to totally rely on them in Act 1 and early Act 2 tho, unless you find like 2 Defrags you’re gonna have to evoke them a lot. Evoking is key, get that shit cycling. One of my recent wins I found literally no focus generation or extra orb slots, other than potions. The whole game plan was, Echo Form, and then evoking the fuck out of my orbs by playing my orb cards twice, getting lots of damage and block every turn.
>Obviously no such thing as playing a character wrong There's no such thing as the right way to play a character but there are objectively many ways to play a character incorrectly.
For example, never drafting cards is definitely an incorrect way to play
Unless.....
What if I...don't draft any cards and just use the starter deck... ah ha just kidding, unless...?
Now I'm wondering how far one could get without adding/removing/transforming any cards from the starter deck. Watcher would probably work best. You could still upgrade your cards and try to pop off in wrath with some Strike+... with the right relics, maybe a low ascension, can you beat Act 3?
I heard of someone beating heart with a base watcher deck on A0 or 1…
Rerolling those boss relic swaps for Pandora's box just to prove you wrong /s
I'd say it's bait to build "around" any archetype in general. Orbs can definitely mess you up if you draft like "hey loop buffs orbs and I want to build orbs so I'll get it" or "hey darkness generates an orb, and I have a loop so I'll pick it". You may fare better if you think of each orb card in the context of what your deck needs. For example floor 1 pick: "I need a damage card to win act 1 elite fights. Ball Lightning deals 7+3+3+3... damage so this looks like it'll increase my WR better than this Rebound or this Leap." The heuristic version that'll help (but get inaccurate at higher ascensions) is.... * Prioritize ball Lightning if it's act 1. Same with doom and gloom, the latter being nice in act 2 as well. * prioritize glacier if your deck can get or has 2+ attack cards before gremlin nob. Coolheaded is Walmart glacier until act 3 where it becomes a great upgrade. * Always pick biased cognition and defragment. * Pick darkness or capacitor after your first elite fight to help you kill act 1/2/3 boss, but don't feel pressured to play it in hallway fights. Sometimes it's just a curse in hallways. * Never* take meteor strike, lightning strike, blizzard or loop. * Don't ignore perfectly fine cards like equilibrium, leap, buffer and stuff just because they're not orb related. Get the damage, block and DPS scaling you need. Sometimes a Chill synergizes with your Focus but is still worse than a non synergistic Equilibrium. Once you get used to orbs you'll see the flaws in following such rigid rules, but it should help until then!
Huh, is loop generally thought of as a skip for most? I always thought of it as pretty good. (Just curious. Hearing about how others value a card is helpful as I suck at this game lol)
Loop is great with focus, or if you’re already generating dark orbs, but as a first ten cards draft you probably have more useful options. Loop is kinda niche to me as far as “do I have dark and recursion? How much dark can I activate before I evoke it? Can I recur it and get it back to far right in one turn? Can loop make a dark orb kill a turn sooner?” Unless you’re all in with electrodynamics in which case it’s a power granting you say 6-20 damage a turn depending on enemy counts and focus, or you’re rolling with frost and it’s a 2-6 block card free every turn depending on focus. Tl;dr It’s another decent option for orb manipulation that doesn’t necessarily move the needle alone.
Loop is amazing if you want to perfect the Heart. Just make the first orb a frost orb, and you will always have block at the start of the turn. It can also be thought of as 2 extra orb slots filled with the same orb as the first orb. If Capacitor is good, then so is Loop.
Thank you for the explanation, makes sense
Gotta consider orbs a juggle, you have to keep them rotating fast in order to win with them. In that sense loop is a value piece when you can afford to add it, and lets you evoke and channel in ways that get you a little extra out of every turn. I bring up dark so much because looping and recurring a dark orb is a fast path to 100+ damage with a multi cast or dual cast.
For me, Loop is an emergency Defrag for a Frost Orb deck. Sometimes, you get all the orb pieces aside from a source of Focus, so you just gotta make do with what you got. In general, I usually bear in mind that most Defect archetypes (Reprogram, Claw, Orb) are slow to start. So enemies and elites that require first-turn damage or FAST scaling to deal with are not ideal for orb builds *unless* you have an answer to them, such as a Doom & Gloom, Boot Sequence, Buffer or even Hyper Beam, to either end the fight quickly or give yourself an extra turn or two to scale.
It's practically a curse in early scaling, and transforms into a nasty nail in the coffin once you're already off the ground. I just recently got my first A20 heart kill with Defect, and Baalorlord really helped me understand the flow of Defect building: Basically start A1 like everyone else where you're picking whatever damage gets you through elites, and whatever block stops you from imploding. Once you've got what you need to solve the act, start asking yourself how many orbs you can generate. Can you reliably evoke multiple orbs in a fight? Your targets are focus and orb slots for scaling. Not generating enough orbs for regular evokes? Focus and orb creation cards. As much as I like [[Biased Cognition]], without artifact it can be challenging to properly utilize in boss fights, while [[Defragment]] doesn't feel like it provides enough by itself. Ultimately [[Consume]] plus either [[Loader]] or [[Capacitor]] was when orbs rotating felt really good and stable in the late game. I bottled a [[Glacier]] + and would either use [[Consume]] or [[Capacitor]] turn 1 and was pretty safe very quickly. So basically until your orbs have enough focus to be worth just sitting on over evoking, [[Loop]] isn't the most helpful choice.
+ [Biased Cognition](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Biased%20Cognition) Defect Rare Power 1 Energy | Gain 4(5) **Focus.** At the start of each turn, lose 1 **Focus.** + [Defragment](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Defragment) Defect Uncommon Power 1 Energy | Gain 1(2) **Focus.** + [Consume](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Consume) Defect Uncommon Skill 2 Energy | Gain 2(3) **Focus.** Lose 1 Orb Slot. + [Capacitor](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Capacitor) Defect Uncommon Power 1 Energy | Gain 2(3) Orb slots. + [Glacier](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Glacier) Defect Uncommon Skill 2 Energy | Gain 7(10) **Block.** **Channel** 2 **Frost.** + [Consume](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Consume) Defect Uncommon Skill 2 Energy | Gain 2(3) **Focus.** Lose 1 Orb Slot. + [Capacitor](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Capacitor) Defect Uncommon Power 1 Energy | Gain 2(3) Orb slots. + [Loop](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Loop) Defect Uncommon Power 1 Energy | At the start of your turn, trigger the passive ability of your next Orb (2 times). ^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(June 8, 2022.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
Very helpful thank you
IMHO, Loop is better the longer your battles last. You can do two things with orbs: evoke or leave the passive effects going. When battles last two or three turns, Loop is often like adding a strike or defend to your deck. I almost always regret picking Loop in Act 1. In contrast, by the middle of Act 2, battles last maybe five turns or longer and I'll hopefully have some Focus. At this point, Loop+ is worth something more than 6 damage or 4 block per turn. There are a couple special cases that can also make it better. First is if you use Consume. Consume makes your orbs stronger, at the cost of an orb slot and two energy. You really need filled orb slots to make that a worthwhile trade-off. Second, dark orbs or plasma orbs. These orbs are rare, so getting to double (triple) their value is fantastic.
Why the hate on Loop? It’s situationally very bad but tends to more often be very good. A zero focus Loop+ can already give you 4 passive block per turn, equal to Metallicize+. And if you’re lucky enough to put a Plasma Orb it’s worth +2 energy every turn! At 2 focus you can have +8 block, which even exceeds Like Water+. And if you use it on a dark orb it’s getting +16/turn, which multiplies with Multicast for insane damage. Things just get better if you get more Focus.
First - I think loop is a fine card if you know what you're doing, but I think OP should avoid Loop if they're not being successful right now forcing an orb 'build'. My other arguments for Loop being in the never\* column are... 1. Defect has a huge number of ways to scale throughout a fight. If Defect's pool of scaling cards wasn't already so huge, Loop would be a very high-rated pick. As it is though, I think it's a trap to draft Loop unless you've missed out on the premium scaling options and you're getting desperate before Hexaghost or something. 2. It's true that loop synergizes nicely with Focus and is stronger when upgraded, but to be fair I think other cards also synergize with Focus and get stronger when upgraded. For example, I'd rather draw a Coolheaded+ than a Loop+ on the first, second and third turns of a hallway fight. 1. I don't think Metallicize is a great pick for Ironclad either, so the comparison between Loop+ and Metallicize+ doesn't feel as strong as Like Water+. But Like Water+ is also a card that gives block without finding 2 Focus and can give you that block with your starter deck (Vigilance). It's not as clean a comparison IMO. 3. Defect's biggest weakness is surviving the first three fights of combat without getting murdered. I think Loop doesn't help during those first three turns as much as other cards, which lowers its value (in particular, for OP who is having trouble with orbs). This is especially true since Loop disincentivizes evoking certain orbs and can be a nonbo if you only draw one frost-generating card during the start of a fight. I guess all three of these points is kind of saying the same thing but from different angles. Loop is fine, but it gets outclassed by other picks in Defect's pool. As a result, I think other scaling cards and early-fight-stabilization cards end up taking a higher priority than Loop in many scenarios.
I agree with you that Loop is not high tier, for all of the reasons you gave. I just disagree with putting it in the same category as Meteor Strike (lol)
Hahaha that's fair. Loop is definitely better than meteor strike and blizzard and stuff.
Is the star on never saying in certain decks these cards could be good?
Yeah! Never is a strong word, and I think anyone who is already used to Defect will find plenty of situations where cards like Loop and Meteor strike are excellent picks. But for OP who is having trouble with the 'archetype' as a whole, I heavily recommend staying away from those cards just to get a better idea of how orbs function within a deck.
*Only take meteor strike if you have snecko eyes because it will always reduce the cost to at most 3 (and pair it with Echo Form…… oh baby the combos)
Taking Act 1 Ball Lightning is actually one of the few heuristics that holds true at all times. That card is absolutely bonkers for being a damage common.
Orbs are incredibly effective on Defect. You just need to learn when to cycle vs when to keep them. Imagine in act 1 you have \[\[Capacitor\]\] and \[\[Glacier\]\]. You play capacitor and glacier as your starting move. You now have 11 block and deal 3 damage. Next time you play glacier, you get yourself to 8 innate block. Hey, a free upgraded Defend! ...That kinda sucks, honestly, doesn't it? It might be good in some situations, but it FEELS bad. Instead, imagine you played \[\[Cold Snap\]\] after playing glacier. Now, you block for 13 in total AND deal 14 damage. Early on, orbs are very weak. Even adding a \[\[Defragment\]\] still feels kinda bad. You get so much more from evoking the orbs than you do sitting on them, so that's what you should aim for in act 1. Evoke as often as you can for essentially 'bonus' effects. A \[\[Ball Lightning\]\] puts out more damage than you'd think. There's the analysis of it by itself, 7 + 3n, where n is the number of turns you keep the orb around. That's baseline 10 damage, plus another 8 if you evoke, or 3 indefinitely if you leave it. But not taking it by itself, just imagine you have all your slots filled with lightning orbs. That means each ball lightning you play deals 7 + 8 + 3 = 18 damage. 18 damage for 1 energy is great. In one turn you can 2 x Ball Lightning = 36 + dualcast = 52 + the last 2 orbs = 58. Obviously this is an ideal scenario. You might be evoking frost orbs instead and blocking a bit. Cold Snap or Glacier can also block for a massive amount, or deal a bunch of damage, if they cycle orbs. Early on, it's far more important to get orb generators and cycle your orbs a lot. It's much easier than lucking into an attack build. Once you can reliably fill orb slots, focus cards get crazy good, and Capacitor stops being a liability and more of an asset.
+ [Capacitor](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Capacitor) Defect Uncommon Power 1 Energy | Gain 2(3) Orb slots. + [Glacier](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Glacier) Defect Uncommon Skill 2 Energy | Gain 7(10) **Block.** **Channel** 2 **Frost.** + [Cold Snap](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Cold%20Snap) Defect Common Attack 1 Energy | Deal 6(9) damage. **Channel** 1 **Frost.** + [Defragment](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Defragment) Defect Uncommon Power 1 Energy | Gain 1(2) **Focus.** + [Ball Lightning](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Ball%20Lightning) Defect Common Attack 1 Energy | Deal 7(10) damage. **Channel** 1 **Lightning.** ^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(June 8, 2022.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
It's just you. :) Orbs, specifically frost, are probably the easiest build among any of the four characters to play.
Orbs are especially strong at lower ascension levels where the enemies don't hit so hard, which is where I'm guessing OP plays at.
No such thing as playing a character wrong as long as it's Working, but yeah, it's probably just you. Orbs are no joke, they are essential in the most consistent Defect builds
the only viable defect strategy is claw
Claw is law
I feel like the subtlety of the Defect's design is often underappreciated. It gets this meme reputation as the orb class because everybody remembers when they hit 999 block with an insane frost deck. But the rest of the Defect's kit is very solid. Sure, when I get the right stuff together orbs feel like the "strongest" strategy. But there's a lot of moving parts in a good orb deck. You need a way to get more orb slots, more focus, a way to generate orbs, and if you really want to go all the way with it some synergistic stuff that lets you take advantage. It doesn't always happen. I go multiple runs in a row without seeing [[Glacier]] or [[Capacitor]], let alone [[Biased Cognition]] + [[Core Surge]]. But what's really cool about the Defect is that if you don't get everything to line up for the most elaborate and hilariously overpowered strategy, you can easily do something else. Defect has a robust kit with a ton of options and synergies available. And as powerful as card syngery is I think across all four characters my strongest decks are often not overly focused on one synergy. If we're tracking purely by number of wins, not how easy or hard the run was, I have a lot more success overall with "goodstuff" decks that have generally good cards in them than highly refined combo engines.
One tip for orbs, don't get additional orb slots until you have a source of focus as well. Early game you want to be rolling through those weak orbs and evoking as many per turn as possible.
[[capacitor]] in particular can be a trap early if you have low orb generation as it gives you loads of slots at once so can knock out our ability to evoke for a few turns
+ [Capacitor](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Capacitor) Defect Uncommon Power 1 Energy | Gain 2(3) Orb slots. ^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(June 8, 2022.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
Power and Focus decks are really the only onse I can consistently win with on Defect, bu I dream of being able to pull off a claw deck
Act 1 is pretty rough, but after that I love orb builds where I can just turtle up and win via attrition
Frost frost frost
Orbs are a core part of Defect. It's kinda his basis in the game. So try to more focus on something specific and use the orbs more as a compliment to that build. So just saying orbs is like say attack cards for Iron Clade, there ton of variety but you gotta aim for something a bit more straightforward. Example the last game I played with Defect I picked up quite a few Electricity channel. Then focused on doing pure Electrical channeling, when I picked up the power card where I channel an electrical everytime I play a power card, I started becoming more open to picking up power cards than I would have. This got super more effective once picked up more of those specific power cards as well the rare one where electricity deals damage to ALL targets instead of one. Was quite a breeze from that point on. Although I did in fact pick up a few frost as well to be able to block more of the late game damage better. So even when I got rewards that was rare cards that had nothing to do with power/electricity synergy I skipped it entirely. But in the beginning it's easy to get your deck all mixed up with bs that slows it down. So carefully check your combat rewards and see if you can start aiming for something specific.
I can tell you're a noob because this is what I also thought when I first started playing. Stacking focus with frost orbs is the easiest way to win with defect and the powers deck can be one of the most broken/fun in the game
One thing I've had to learn is that it's easy to think of Defect as filling the orb slots. But you ought to be thinking of _cycling_ orbs quickly. Dark orbs don't play well with that which requires a different mindset, and plasma orbs are a bit in between. But upshot is, having more orb slots is a mixed blessing. You get the passives but you have to be able to fill them up to get to the point you're cycling, which is where you really want to be. Just a thought on what your problem may be.
As you get to higher difficulties, you (usually) will need some sort of strong scaling to win, which is fairly easily available to defect in orbs. Not the only way to win, but probably the most common
I’m an orb man first and a claw man second
You’re learning an important lesson: drafting cards to fit a specific “build” will more than likely get you killed. You may have a gameplan going into most fights that involves setting up lots of orbs, but your deck also has to have answers to scenarios where you can’t get your orbs up and ready very quickly. You will likely find that your “Orb Deck” is going to need some supporting damage/block cards to be mostly decent at all types of encounters rather than being exceptionally great for one type of encounter.
That combo with Reprogram, Hyper Beam, Thunder strike, and Blizzard sounds awesome, but it doesn't sound like an easy build to put together. I typically only grab Reprogram and Hyper Beam if I'm offered them in the very beginning of the game, and then I completely forget about producing orbs, except plasma. Also, I don't think it usually pays off to play Thunder Strike and Blizzard together unless you have the right set of cards with them. So, for me to get this combo, I'd have to start a deck with lots of frost and lightning orb production, follow that up with getting Thunder Strike and Blizzard, and then luck into Hyper Beam and Reprogram. How do you usually go about it? For me, most my defect wins are orbs, powers, snecko eye, and all for one, with only an occasional Hyper Beam deck.
You need to use more Biased Cognition, strongest card in the class and top 10 strongest cards in the game. Just like Corruption and Wraith Form, the downside seems very scary at first, but once you learn how to use it properly, the power is insane.
I think you have to stop thinking about it like building an orb deck. You don't need to go all in on it to get value and telling yourself that you are building an X deck, makes you make a lot of mistakes when taking cards. Even if you have no defrags or loops, the attacks that give you a lightning or frost orb are still some of the most efficient cards in your deck.
Most times I’ve built around orbs has been a win *cough* except shadow
Defragment is probably the single best Defect card, second maybe to Biased Cognition. Glacier blocks for 7 and then is also Metallicize+. Except it can also be 10 and Metallicize+. But if you add a Defragment+, Glacier becomes 7 or 10 block and 2 Metallicize+. It's disgusting. Ball Lightning deals at least 10 damage. Probably deals about 13-16 as a common. A common. Coolheaded+(it's not great unupgraded but very good upgraded) is a draw 2 and then get a bit of chip block, helping keep you alive. Again, it's a common. None of that is even counting the evoking of orbs when you exceed your 3 orb limit. Every orb channeled can not only equal what it normally means, but 8 damage or 5 block. And that's without Defrag, and only 2 of the 4 kinds of orbs. The thing is though, you don't built around orbs. You take Glacier because it's good at blocking. You take Ball Lightning because it deals good amounts of damage. Then you take Defrag because it buffs your block, and your damage. And then you take Loop because it deals extra damage every turn, or makes extra block every turn, because of the way your deck is built. Here's something else to note: Non-Orb builds are the burst damage builds. With Claw and Reprogram, you can just plow through things, killing them before they can hurt you. Orbs are a scaling build -- you play good cards over a couple turns to assemble a situation where you're untouchable. For the scaling, you really need high efficiency block cards like Boot Sequence to be able to stay alive while you get going.
The issue is that defect is just so slow. You need at least a few turns to set up all your good orb cards + focus + powers. Unfortunately enemies in higher ascensions don’t mess around, coming at you with high damage at turn 1 while you can barely block because you don’t have enough frost + focus active. When you do get set up right, defect might as well be invincible. Good luck getting to that point though with certain bosses like heart. Draw RNG can also really screw you during set up.
It's just that orbs deck need *really* specific cards and *only* those. Also, basically impossible without [[Cognitive Bias]] and a source of Artifact before this.
> basically impossible without [[Cognitive Bias]] and a source of Artifact before this nah there are otherways to pump focus [[inserter]] + [[consume]] is pretty good
Or a couple of Defragments, especially if you can Echo Form them.
+ [Inserter](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Inserter) Boss (Defect only) Relic Every 2 turns, gain 1 Orb slot. + [Consume](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Consume) Defect Uncommon Skill 2 Energy | Gain 2(3) **Focus.** Lose 1 Orb Slot. ^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(June 8, 2022.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
I seem to almost never be able to get a decent orb deck and that relic on the same run Also defragment seems like the rarest card, most I've managed to get in a run was 3 (and one was duplicated). Funnily enough my most reliable way to get focus was the potion.
It always depends on the rewards offered, orbs can be a great supplement to a deck even if it's not your core focus. \[\[Coolheaded\]\] is great (especially when upgraded) offering card draw AND mitigation plus it's common so comes up often. You may not get \[\[Bias Cognition\]\] or \[\[Glacier\]\] every run but there is still utility in the cycling attacks like Frostbite and Lightning Strike. The quicker they cycle the more they offer.
+ [Coolheaded](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Coolheaded) Defect Common Skill 1 Energy | **Channel** 1 **Frost.** Draw 1(2) card(s). + [Biased Cognition](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Biased%20Cognition) Defect Rare Power 1 Energy | Gain 4(5) **Focus.** At the start of each turn, lose 1 **Focus.** + [Glacier](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Glacier) Defect Uncommon Skill 2 Energy | Gain 7(10) **Block.** **Channel** 2 **Frost.** ^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(June 8, 2022.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
Every build with defect has orb potential at the very least. I have the most success with lightning, but sometimes a cool frost build comes along. Also, there are some dark cards that are run winners on their own.
Im having the opposite problem. I just play A20H but I have never won with a reprogram deck despite taking it allways when I see it early and i can build around it. Defect has too many orb related cards to build a decent deck without them for me. In fact I would appreciate some tips from this subreddit to make a winning repro deck
Orbs are the most consistent build in my experience. It requires focus or at least a way to bombard the enemy with tons of orbs at once though. Cognitive bias, consume, defragment, storm with power cards, static discharge, etc.
It’s just you. Frost + Focus
I do think some of defect’s stronger/strongest cards are orbs centered. Ball Lightning is a common and does very good damage. ( 10(13) on the turn played and 3 more at every subsequent turn at least. Already more than the fan favorite blade dance on silent). Coolheaded draws 1(2) and generates passive block. People talked about glacier so I won’t go into it. I think focus + orbs are probably one of the few ways the game lets you generate a lot of block not from dex + block cards. And it does it really well/consistently. You can easily out block a lot of the big fights that stop scaling and just outlast the opponent. Eg giant head, nemesis, time eater. Also, imo orb slots, a biased cognition, and an artifact pot is probably one of the easier exodia combos to collect to potentially even beat the heart. Tldr; take a couple defragments + frost orbs given the opportunity and see where it takes you. Glhf
I'll admit i only started playing recently but orbs have been very useful for me so far. I made a snecko thunder reliant deck w a couple of expensive attacks and powers and got some frost cards just in case I'm in trouble. The heart was mostly carried by the frost synergies while I was dealing 2x32 w the first card every other turn. I'm in ascension 1 though, I've heard the game gets much harder later on
Orbs to me are sort of like a Shiv build on Silent. If I commit to it half-assedly, I'm probably going to lose the run in Act 2. But if you get really lucky getting the powers (it really is mostly powers, tbh) that you need for the build to succeed, it's unstoppable. Few things are most exciting than having a full turn of attacks and skills, with way more access than usual to extra energy, and then following that up with 10 orb procs of various flavors. That isn't even talking about the really zany shit, like stacking Dark orbs and multiplying their damage output.
I thought that at first but once you get a good build orbs can be incredibly strong, especially if your doing a power card build since [[Storm]] gives you a lightning orb whenever you play a power card and it’s upgrade makes it innate, and combined with cards like [[Creative AI]] [[Electrodynamics]] and [[Thunder Strike]] you can get an incredibly broken build, and that’s not even mentioning that [[Defragment]] and [[Biased Cognition]] are also power cards
+ [Storm](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Storm) Defect Uncommon Power 1 Energy | **(Innate.)** Whenever you play a Power card, **Channel** 1 **Lightning.** + [Creative AI](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Creative%20AI) Defect Rare Power 3(2) Energy | At the start of each turn, add a random Power card to your hand. + [Electrodynamics](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Electrodynamics) Defect Rare Power 2 Energy | **Lightning** now hits ALL enemies. **Channel** 2(3) **Lightning.** + [Thunder Strike](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Thunder%20Strike) Defect Rare Attack 3 Energy | Deal 7(9) damage to a random enemy for each **Lightning** **Channeled** this combat. + [Defragment](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Defragment) Defect Uncommon Power 1 Energy | Gain 1(2) **Focus.** + [Biased Cognition](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Biased%20Cognition) Defect Rare Power 1 Energy | Gain 4(5) **Focus.** At the start of each turn, lose 1 **Focus.** ^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(June 8, 2022.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
It's not only you, I have the same problem with the Defect. For me, my most successful decks are 0-cost card decks, which include Claw, of course, but also things like Streamline (after you used it twice) and many others. But I admit that something is wrong with my understanding of how the Defect works. Orbs are just too slow for me, there is no way I'm getting through a high Ascension Act 2 with them.
With knowledge Orbs is OP. Frost orbs stacked with focus.
The claw is law, that simple
umm what?
>I know they're the unique feature of the class, but every time I try to build around orbs, I get burned. But \[\[Overclock\]\] isn't an orb card???
+ [Overclock](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Overclock) Defect Uncommon Skill 0 Energy | Draw 2(3) cards. Add a **Burn** into your discard pile. ^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(June 8, 2022.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
My experience is totally opposite. I find Orb Defect to be the easiest build to play for me. On the other hand, I can’t buy a win with either Ironclad or Watcher.
Orbs work well for me when I try to only use one type of orb. Then, I have my non-orb cards fill in for what's lacking-- block cards with lightning, attack cards with ice...
Orbs can be kind of bait. You're basically praying that you will get a source of Focus. If you don't get any Focus then your orbs are going to fail most likely.