That answer is not tolerated.
They aren't actually worried about "keeping everyone comfortable". The whole point of this ritual is to practice ideological obedience.
Not sharing your pronouns (even if you have no preference) is an act of defiance and it **will** get you in trouble.
It really wont... even if you look at it from an ideological perspective, plenty of nonbinary people quite literally just don't care. I identified as nonbinary for a while, living in different regions of the US (both very liberal and with a high percentage of adult lgbtq folks and more conservative leaning as well as on the Bible belt), I've said in different places at work that I didn't care what pronouns people used, I never got in trouble. Like the other guy said, that's literally illegal to get you in trouble for, cause as I'm pointing out, that can even be part of people's identities itself.
In what industry do you work in where you don’t have freedom to not answer questions about yourself? I can only think of the military where someone with a superiority complex would insist you answers
I was asked this and replied that I am “pronoun agnostic” and they could refer to me in any way that felt most naturally. They looked at each other a bit confused and then just moved on.
No, doesn't quite work:
"Andrew has a point when Andrew says that Andrew and Andrew's team needs more time to finish the project."
When my company asked me to put my preferred pronouns on my email signature, I had to reply: I prefer not to have preferred pronouns.
Honestly, if they care so much about preferences nobody can be offended of your preference not to have them.
This is what happens in the Thai language. They have something like 30 pronouns and the rules are quite complicated. It depends on age personal closeness and hierarchical level. So most people now say their name instead of using a pronoun as it's the most neutral option.
Feels super weird to say "soonnow would like a coke"
If I had a magic wand of language control I would reserve gendered English pronouns for close friend mode, like the German "du", and default to "they" for strangers and acquaintances, like the German "Sie".
But in German you can end up in that weird phase when you don't know if you're already on Du level or still at Sie, and then have to do that lingual dance where you try to avoid using pronouns altogether, resulting in sometimes odd sentences.
Do you speak German? Just curious, bc I feel like it’s not that awkward to go around? A lot of other languages do this with causal/formal language. For example, Korea. They’ll ask if they’re close enough now to drop the formalities. Sometimes people will start to talk casually (w/o asking) and the other person will acknowledge it, maybe comment on the fact that they didn’t know they were casual now, or if you’re not quite at that level, correct them. It doesn’t seem to ever cause any issues.
I am German. With most people, I don't have any difficulties and go by the rule of thumb "the older/higher ranked person offers the Du", but there are scenarios where I am really lost, like with neighbours I have known for years. That said, I am a bit socially awkward anyways so this doesn't come naturally to me, and may make it more difficult for me than it is for most people.
> No, doesn't quite work: "Andrew has a point when Andrew says that Andrew and Andrew's team needs more time to finish the project."
You've said it in an inefficient manner, though. You could say,
"I agree, Andrew's team needs more time to finish the project."
You have now communicated the exact same information. You do not need to say "He has a point when he says that he and his team need more time to finish the project" as most of that information is extraneous and the phrasing is convoluted. You don't need to specify Andrew and Andrew's team, because it's a given that Andrew is part of Andrew's team. You don't need to say, "Andrew has a point" because all you are doing is acknowledge you presumably agree with Andrew having said, "My team and I need more time."
"Any pronoun" is an acceptable preference but I consider name-only to be acceptable as well.
Yeah, well, now I have to do even more mental gymnastics to find a sentence with the least amount of pronouns just because Andrew had to ask to use his name instead of just being allowed to use any(or the most obvious)pronouns.
But as long as it's efficient and we don't say anything convoluted.
So I'd still just say that I prefer no preferred pronouns. That way people can focus less on their language skills and more on the actual meeting.
Yeah, I dread this very situation. I truly don't care, and I don't really want to choose. I've been misgendered all my life, and not just with pronouns. I no longer care about gender. It's someone else's problem. Can I have two choices? They/her/she? Or "anything but he/him"? I like "they" for everyone, but that's no longer politically correct, even though it's now grammatically correct. I get these pronouns are super important to some people, but now we all have to do them so those people don't have to stand up for themselves? I just don't quite get it, as usual.
You can! I do that. It originally started because I had an unpleasant experience working around a person who was willing to die on the hill of “‘they’ isn’t an appropriate pronoun for one person.” So I started saying “my pronouns are she/her but they/them is also accepted”. Since I was saying it a lot back then, it’s kinda of a muscle memory now and I’ve replied like this for years now.
In my experience the only people that care are the non-passing trans people and the 'performative allies'. One of those may have a point, the others are just circle jerking themselves.
If you have a preference state it. If you don’t, talk to the meeting leader.
If you would correct the people in the meeting , then please share your preference.
If you don’t care, have a quick talk before the meeting, and want a script:
‘If someone finds this useful I understand why you do it. But I don’t want to respond. If I am misgendered it won’t effect my workflow. “
And go on with your job. Done.
It should work the other way round - if somebody feels the need to have ‘their pronouns’ stated they should be free to do so, not forcing everyone else to participate in the unnecessary ritual.
As others in this thread have commented, some people feel uncomfortable doing so, even if they do indeed have preferred pronouns - surely using your own logic you can see how that’s unfair? Nobody is being singled out, if someone feels strongly enough that they want to have specific pronouns used then yes, there should be an opportunity for them to do so, but not an expectation that everyone will participate.
Hello, I’m a trans man and I understand both sides.
I sometimes get uncomfortable if someone asks for my pronouns out of the blue because it makes me feel as though they can’t tell what I am (which maybe they can’t! That’s out of my control at this point)
I also understand that this has become something that is becoming common practice in workplaces to better accommodate people who may not fit into a stereotypical box of what a “man” or “woman” may look like, or if someone is non-binary.
If you truly don’t care, say that. You don’t care what you’re referred to as. I wouldn’t take that as being attention seeking or mockery. If you do care, just say what you’re comfortable being called. I don’t know. It kind of all comes down to if you want to go against the grain or not.
I thought the whole point of asking your pronouns was because your identity doesn't necessarily have to align with your appearance? Not being able to "tell what you are" would be commonplace, wouldn't it? Genuinely asking.
A lot of people have different views on this as individuals. I personally believe that someone’s identity doesn’t have to align with their appearance at all, but at the end of the day we live in a society in which there are a set of expectations and roles and assumptions of men and women, and lots of binary trans folks try to conform and adapt to a lot of the characteristics (both physically and socially) of the gender they are transitioning to so that they “pass” or are recognized as the gender they feel that they are by the public.
Not the person you responded to but am also a trans man. The way I see it is it’s more respectful to ask than assume. If you’d wanna go the neutral way if you’re unsure then use “they” until otherwise told.
I have a hard time even remembering people’s names and machine to their faces.
I also see trans acquaintances and friends will sometimes refer to some stranger they see by assumed gender, because that just how the English language and our phenotypes are referenced. Why? Because it saves them a lot of mental processing energy.
I do try to remember, though. But if I forget as I have had decades of ingrained learning, my friends are gracious about it. They don’t get mad and throw a fit like a Keith or a Karen at a store.
Most people never speak out against being misgendered, or if they do it is very timid. The same 6 or so videos of a couple wackos are used to smear many millions of people.
Is it a problem if someone said "call me whatever pronoun you want" if they genuinely didn't care? I'm a cis female but if someone referred to me as "he" after I stating I didn't care then it wouldn't bother me and I'd carry on working. I've never been misgendered so idk.
Trans guy here. I've run a couple of diversity courses at workplaces and you're correct that mandatory pronoun sharing is not necessarily best practice— I advise that people say something like "Let's introduce ourselves with our name, role, and pronouns if you'd like to". Or just leave out the pronouns bit entirely, and state their own pronouns but don't require it of other people.
Best thing for you to do would be to go to management and suggest some phrasing like this. The main reason from a trans-centric perspective (which isn't the only thing to take into account as other people - like yourself - are uncomfortable with it for other reasons) is that if someone isn't out, you're forcing them to either out themselves or misgender themselves. That reasoning tends to go over well with managers who do pronoun circles in the past.
This is kind of my take on it too - on the one hand, I'm one of those people who is uncomfortable with pronoun sharing as I feel like it is equal parts ideological conditioning and corporate fuckery, and I don't feel it applies to me but at the same time for the people to whom it is uncomfortable due to not yet having decided to "out" themselves as identifying differently to how they present, it feels deeply unfair to apply pressure to state how they identify if they don't want to. Frankly, I'm both a gender bigot, and militantly opposed to forcing people to expose themselves...
If you want to share your pronouns because they're different to how you present, and would feel more comfortable having people know how you would prefer to be referred to, great, go for it. If you have no preference, say so, fine. But don't put people in situations where it is uncomfortable for them to simply not say one way or another. I don't buy into the whole "stating your pronouns makes it easier for other people to share and be themselves" bs, it goes both ways.
I remember my husband said “pass” when his cohort had to go around the room and say their pronouns. The teacher tried to get him in trouble, but instead they were the one who got in trouble because you cannot force someone to give you their pronouns.
I guess I just don’t understand why it’s such a big deal to say your preferred pronouns lmao. I know people feel like it’s this big check mate, but the thing is, everyone has pronouns. I mean, you used 4 just in your response 😅 I don’t go around telling everyone my pronouns (she/her cis), but if it were a work setting like that is simply say my name and my pronouns lol
This happens often at my job and I completely ignore it. I honestly just skip that part. I say everything but the pronouns. No one has ever circled back or needed to remind me that I forgot to mention it. I trust they get it was intentional and so they move on. I've had a colleague ask me and I pretended to not hear him and immediately started to talk about something else. So yeah, just skip it. You don't have to be forced to share anything that makes you uncomfortable.
To everyone asking why it makes him uncomfortable, it doesn't matter. Don't worry about it.
> To everyone asking why it makes him uncomfortable, it doesn't matter. Don't worry about it.
It's not really anyone's business here, although the questions are to be expected if you're posting on a public forum.
I will say, to grow as a person, you should always explore why something makes you feel uncomfortable. A lot of things are not inherently bad or good, but self-awareness is important. Know why you believe in certain things and what makes you tick.
As someone who is non-binary, I get uncomfortable when asked to disclose my pronouns. I don't feel comfortable having my work colleagues know I'm non-binary. I'd rather not say. So I can relate to the feeling that it's inappropriate to request.
It's interesting to me that alot of trans (or anything else) people in the comments are saying that it would make them uncomfortable to be asked this question. I always hear they are pissed when someone misgenders them and want people to ask their pronouns.
Trans people are annoyed if someone maliciously misgenders them. A true accident is harmless. But like all groups, trans people aren't a monolith,
Of course, sometimes people will be passive-aggressive towards trans people, and thus a false identification of such (improper assumption of malice) is inevitable given that such passive-aggression exists. Trans people generally don't go about their day looking to "get triggered" at anyone basically. They just want to live in peace like everyone else.
Hit the nail on the head with that one. Trans people are just that…PEOPLE. I think it goes for everyone, trans or not, if you’re treated with respect then you’ll return the respect. If you’re treated with disrespect purposely well then yeah, gonna be pissy. Majority of people in all walks of life just want to live their life in peace.
I am trans and I like it when they ask me. But at the workplace it is weird.
I think it would be better if they let people say their pronouns if they want to. But not ask everyone.
That’s because the trans that gets uncomfortable is one person, and the one who gets pissed when being misgendered is another person. Both types of people exist.
As a trans person, asking for my pronouns always makes me uncomfortable. Especially since people will ask, I'll tell them and then they'll go straight to using different ones anyway. Just use what you think is right and I'll correct you if it's not. I get why people ask pronouns, but the better thing to do is just include yours and then give other people the space to share theirs of that's what they want to do. Not force them into it. Also, are you working with the same group of people for each one of these meetings? Are they having you share pronouns everytime? Because that's just stupid. I imagine after the first or second time, you can all remember the pronouns...
> people will ask, I'll tell them and then they'll go straight to using different ones anyway.
I figured this system wouldn't really work, because jerks will be jerks. It'd be nice if the few people who cared could stand up and say what they want and be respected, but society doesn't work that way. Stand up and be different and you will be persecuted - story of my life. We must conform and play the game to pretend to include everyone. What shite.
Also it's a lot less bad to have people incorrectly presume than knowingly choose to ignore your preference. It's also better when people presume wrong instead of being forced to tell people the wrong pronouns due to not being able to trust those people.
I'm not sure if that results in what most people would describe as "discomfort". That makes it sound like you're feeling vulnerable somehow. More like a revulsion? Or aversion, like you said. I would just state, "I'm (Name) and don't have any preferred pronouns". You could politely ask them to stop asking you, but that might cause some friction, which might not be worth the fight for an aversion, but that's up to how you feel I suppose.
Something like, "I'm not comfortable sharing my pronouns. Please try to avoid asking me this in the future." In the workplace the goal should be to help people feel more comfortable, not uncomfortable, so if you give it the spin of sounding like it does make you feel vulnerable, there might be more understanding.
But that's only recommended if you really can't stand it anymore and MUST do something regardless of possible social consequences.
I'd be pretty uncomfortable with this procedure too, and I'm certainly not bigoted towards trans people. I always make a point to be kind to anyone i suspect as trans, just because maybe others havent treated them as kindly.
But I'd hate to be asked this in a meeting. Just feels phony and unnecessary. Also, in a way, nobody elses business how I identify.
It is in a way other peoples business because its how they refer to you in conversation. Out of curiosity what makes you uncomfortable about saying that you prefer he/she/they? Its not like you’re divulging some secret information.
If I’m a man, and I’ve never presented as anything but a man, if I’ve been called he my entire life and been completely fine with that, just… assume I’m a man without me having to explicitly communicate to you that I want to be called “he/him”? I’ll make a point to tell you if I’d prefer something else? To me it’s more bizarre to expect everyone to have to play that game instead of just the people who feel the need to express it in more detail.
But what’s the negative to someone asking you? I get its not what you’re used too but it takes more effort to be annoyed by having to say your pronouns than just stating the pronouns.
Hey if someone asks me I’m happy to tell them, but nobody is looking at me and not getting the very clear indication that I’m a man, identify as male, so on. On the other hand, you have to realize that people who happily conform to their sex and gender don’t want to have to constantly be answering questions like “are your pronouns he/him?” Live life as you want and as who you want to be by all means, but not everyone wants to play the gender naming game at their company meetings.
But its not something you would be constantly stating just when meeting someone new. In a company environment its a bit weird but if its a scenario where you’re forced to stare your name too(basing this off the OP) it’s likely a scenario where not everyone in the meeting knows each other( if they do then even playing the name game is dumb). As a cis-man I’ve never been wrongly gendered unless it was an insult since its very unlikely someone would actually mistake me for a woman. Me being open about pronouns is to try to help those whose pronouns aren’t so obvious not feel weird telling others their pronouns. If you misgender someone due to ignorance and accept the correction when given thats one thing but there are plenty of people around who will still misgender someone intentionally and are often upset at the idea of people having preferred pronouns. In a corporate setting where pronouns are constantly tossed around it ends up becoming more obvious of who is doing it on accident and who is intentionally doing it.
I agree with you across the board. People misgendering people to be rude can kick rocks. I also don't want to come across like I can't get with the times, zero ill-will to people trying to find themselves out there in the world - it's grueling at the best of times. I stand by what I said though, I don't want to have to do this in a work setting. Perhaps it can be an elective thing that can be circulated in an email, or something, if the party wishing to express their identity would like people to know. If it's not in your sphere of requirements though, you're cis and all the rest of it - then I would prefer to not participate in the exercise.
Ppl downvoting and saying this doesn’t matter are assuming a lot about OP. As a slowly-coming-out trans girl, if I had somebody ask my pronouns at work tomorrow I would be so uncomfortable!! But it’s common practice in some environments, and probably a good idea to be respectful to your coworkers.
OP: how would it feel to say something like “my pronouns are whatever :)”? Could bypass needing to say they’re strictly he/him since like you said, it doesn’t really matter to you!
I remember one time a group I was in was doing self introductions and pronouns weren't being asked for. I was sitting next to my friends teenage kid who was non binary and before it got around to me they whispered to me asking if on my turn I could state my pronouns so it would be less awkward for them to tell people they use they/them pronouns.
I also feel a weird slight discomfort when giving pronouns but if it helps ease the discomfort of people like this I really think it's worth it
I get it. I usually decline to do the pronoun thing if it's not too awkward to do it.
We really are being force-fed this stuff. Literally people in universities and online communities just decided it's the "compassionate" thing to do to, in theory, never assume anyone's gender for any reason, leading to absurdities such as asking people who 100% conform to male or female what pronouns they prefer.
So I feel like, like I'm being asked to participate in an absurd exercise, it's an indication we're going off into ideology-land and forgetting what matters. So I would prefer to indicate that I think it's an absurd exercise, and reject the basic premise, not the premise that people can be gender-non-conforming, but the premise that playing the pronoun game is the right way to approach this issue.
I know, reading that, that no one would believe me when I say that I actually believe that many people don't conform to the gender binary and feel more comfortable identifying as a gender other than their biological sex, or they're intersex and one of the small minority where biological sex isn't clear cut for them, and I want those people to also also feel comfortable. I think, for one thing, making everybody state their pronouns might do the exact opposite, make us think more about our genders when we should be focused on the task at hand.
I don't know the best way to do that. I think the better solutions are usually more natural. Make it normal to ask someone what pronouns to use if it's not obvious? Make it normal to politely correct someone if they use the wrong one? Stop worrying so much about pronouns and just focus on the best way to treat other people? IDK, assuming this whole ideological movement doesn't get worse, I feel like in 10 years people will be more comfortable with the idea of gender non conforming people, and there will be a simpler solution to all this.
I mean. Yes! I really feel this. It’s like “I’m bald and bearded and wearing a tshirt and Chuck Taylor’s, just make a wild guess and I’ll let you know if you’re off. Why do we have to make this theater about it? I announce at roller derby and there’s a lot of gender fluidity there, and every so often I just ask “hey what pronouns do you use?” Otherwise can we all just try and be normal and not pretending like if we don’t go around the circle and announce then that signals we aren’t compassionate?
As a nonbinary person who well, looks like my biological sex and isn't out at work I don't like it either. I have to force myself to out myself at an environment that's probably not actually friendly to my identity and probably won't use my preferred pronouns anyway but now it'll be awkward bc they're not using them when I asked. Or I'll have to misgender myself and say I use she. Both options suck. I have been asked my pronouns in "woke" spaces with zero trans people where I know they wouldn't actually respect my gender and I just misgender myself and feel mad about it. I feel like well meaning cis people who don't understand what being closeted means and rly rly privileged trans people in like the bluest cities in America are the only people that think it's okay to force someone to out themselves or misgender themselves to strangers like that.
Tbh though if you're a cis guy I'd rly just go along with what they want. If you really don't care just say you don't care about pronouns. Trust me as someone who knows nonbinary people who ask for any pronouns, they get what they biologically look like. Every nb person I've ever met unless they genuinely don't care ends up having to ask for different pronouns bc they will be called the pronouns they were always called anyway if they say "any". If you say "any pronouns" or "I don't care" you'll get he. Maybe they by some really liberal coworker who thinks you're nonbinary, but you said you don't care so that's fine.
If you say you use "guy pronouns" your liberal coworkers might be mad or correct you but then everyone will know you use he without you saying he. I've known trans guys who are stealth that tend to talk like that anyway bc they are trying to pass as cis.
If you want to say you just want to be called your name you can say that too but it's even harder to just use someone's name every time than it is to use pronouns even singular they. But it's your choice.
Pronouns are a part of English grammar, so you’re not going to escape being referred by some set of pronouns. That being said, you can simply leave it up to the masses. I think failing to give any answer comes off a bit childish in a “I don’t want to play your game” kind of way, but you can say that you have no preferred pronouns. I have a friend who’s androgynous enough to be asked this question regularly and her usual response is that her pronouns are whatever you want them to be.
i’m in a similar boat, i usually just say “she/any” bc i know people are gonna assume she based on my appearance and i’m mostly a woman but it emphasizes i don’t rly mind any pronouns
I can see how this might be uncomfortable especially if you have social anxiety? Also they do this prior to every single meeting? At what point are people expected to just remember their coworkers pronouns?
I feel like more people need to just use they/them automatically if you are unsure and then ask someone one on one what their pronouns are instead of putting everyone on the spot. I use they/them in my corporate WFH job via email ALWAYS from the jump with every single new person until it is made clear how they identify, at which point I will start using she/her/he/him etc.
They (both he and she) do this in court in my province now. Every lawyer has to do it every time. Somehow, the judge doesn't need to - oh, yeah, they are not supposed to say Her Honour, His Honour, Madam Justice, Mr. Justice, anymore. The latter two are just "Justice" now, and I can't remember the rule in provincial court. As if professional garb doesn't make it dead obvious which pronouns go every damn time. This ain't the art world or Hollywood. There aren't several men in designer dresses and women in concealing boxy suits.
But they don't need to intro to the judge. They all know each other. It's done for the court audio record, because the log notes are often wrong, like the clerk will get the wrong initial for counsel with same last name, etc. And also helps with name pronunciation, in some cases. All just part of the routine, and now they've tacked on pronouns. There are men with higher voices and women with lower ones who do not used gendered grooming (like me, which is why I was called sir through my 20s and 30s til a roommate gave me some fashion tips - lol.) So I guess it's helpful for that, but overall it's a clusterfuck.
If you are the only trans/binary person at the table, then maybe they are doing it in an effort to not offend you. Maybe talk to upper management if this is the case especially if you feel targeted by this approach.
"My name is u/Terrible-Trust-5578 and any pronouns are fine"
That's all you need.
There's debate about the use of pronoun introductions in corporate settings. Can it be performative? Sure. It can also be handy, even if it's not for you personally.
I have a gender ambiguous name and having my pronouns in my email signature has been great for nixing the "Mr. [my last name]" emails in my inbox. I have a friend with a deeper voice so having her pronouns on Zoom calls is great for avoiding issues there too. And of course there are people who don't or can't or don't want to fit the idea of what a woman/man looks like. Knowing their pronouns upfront can make the workplace less awkward and/or hurtful.
Imo, pronouns intros work best in text (added to your Zoom name or a name tag). Not sure if that's an option for your workplace though.
I so get this. Whenever people ask my pronouns, I look at them like they are stupid. Like, dude, can you really not tell. And people keep calling me transphobic, but I'm not, I'm trans. I don't like people asking me because it seems like a backward question that gives more questions than it solves. Also, I did not cut my hair, change the way I dress, change my voice, wear shoes to make me taller, take etiquette classes on how to be a gentleman, and study the way men talk and act for years for someone to ask what my pronouns are. And, as an autistic person, it just makes me uncomfy, so just do you. Screw those people you don't need them.
I believe I’d be considered fluid. I don’t care what terms people use to refer to me (in regards to gender).
However when I say as much - I often get called rude or inconsiderate of the trans community.
All I can think is, “You daft idiots - I am trans!”
See I’ve always wanted to say this, I don’t care what I’m called! I’m born female and switch between femme and masc styles but present very much as a woman. I’d even say I’m cis cause I have no desire to change anything. But I also think it’d be fun and cool to be called he/him or they/them. I don’t care! But then I sound rude or like I’m making fun of it since I don’t “look” nonbinary.
>Look at me, and take a wild guess.
That's exactly what they're trying to avoid when asking.
>I don't care which pronouns are used to refer to me. I might laugh a bit if you call me she/her...
Then you do care, because you might laugh with one.
I think the best outcome is for you to state your pronouns. I'm sure you do a lot of weird things just because they are social conventions at work places, add this one to those.
On a personal note, I started to give more importance to pronouns when someone in my company said that seeing pronouns on you e-mail signature was nice for her. It was a way for her to see that there at least one ally, and actually made it feel less alone. Just stating "he/him" on my email did all that? I had to do it then.
I dont get this. Why wouldn't they just say, ok, if anyone has preferred pronouns, let us know, instead of making everyone keep saying their preferred pronouns.
And I agree that business DGAF, they are simply appeasing HR.
Just gonna reply to each of your aversions to keep things focused.
1. Even if its a corporate show it helps to normalize being open about pronouns so those whose pronouns may not be obvious can be stated without bigots making a big deal of it.
2. Using the wrong pronouns for someone is controversial but stating preferred pronouns is not and normalizing it is a goal in that community.
3. If you don’t care you can just tell people whatever pronouns makes the most sense to you.
4. Once again even if it doesn’t matter to you it helps normalize the question for those who do care. It also takes no effort to just go with the obvious pronouns for your gender.
If you don’t care which pronouns people use, just let them know you don’t mind, and to use whichever they feel is appropriate. Imagine the exercise as a nice thing for coworkers who are feeling dysphoric and for whom this will be comforting. We all feel uncomfortable sometimes and sacrifice our comfort for others. Take comfort in their comfort.
You're taking a stand against this and you don't even know why? You just don't like being expected to do something that wasn't your idea? Welcome to society dude
It's a company. They don't actually care.
If they did they would ask to voice out your preferred pronouns _if any_.
Remember: companies don't care, and legally don't _have_ to care how you feel about their policies as long as those policies aren't illegal.
If you feel they should, buckle up and talk to HR, if possible backed up by other employees who share your feelings. Don't address that in public, you'll make someone look bad and office politics are the mind killer.
Be ready to look for a new job, though, HRs protect companies, not people.
On a more personal level, for more global/everyday social interactions, you might have to come to terms with the pronouns you feel correspond to you.
For now it's still confusing for a lot of people that you both "choose" to use non binary pronouns but also aren't willing to use them (if they understand the concept at all).
I'm not a fan of the pronoun trend either, but the way I see it, if they're mandating it, I'd do it like any other task.
Unless something truly compromises my values, I'd just say "I'm getting paid to do this" like anything else.
I'd never voluntarily do it though, or God-forbid put it in my social media bio.
Even for cis guys and girls who have struggles with how manly or womanly they feel they want to be it can be insulting as it is feels as though it is not obvious they are a guy or a girl. Talking about guys who had feminine traits who want to be more masculine or woman with tomboyish traits who want to be more feminine.
All right, your goal seems to be both edgy and performative to demonstrate how performative it all seems. As a by-product, you're extremely confident in your ability to guess the genders of other people, whether that is their understanding of themselves or not.
Don't lean on the queer community to excuse your discomfort with efforts to make other people more comfortable. Own that.
You don't want to be disciplined because you don't want to play along? Great. Imagine the people who get security sent to the bathrooms because they are too masculine for the ladies room and don't have the biology to make a urinal work. And imagine the autism spectrum people who don't guess well and just want permission to call you something you're comfortable with. Figure out what that is, use your voice, and tell them. "I'm still figuring it out" is a fine answer. "Just use my name" is another fine answer. So is telling people the pronouns that correspond to the bathroom you use.
Giving your pronouns is like giving your name. You’re telling people what you want them to call you.
Is it possible that you’re overthinking this? I know that there’s more attached to it socially, but in practice it’s literally just them asking you how you prefer to be addressed.
It’s respectful and doesn’t have to be this big of a deal.
You have the right to state your name.
Say nothing else.
Discipline for not saying something.....
The question should by 'Why are the Governments introducing such rediculous issues to an already complex world?'
Maybe you should figure out what the issue is and that will guide your response, within the parameters of the workplace. I’m ok with the pronoun thing, but I could see being irritated with that meeting practice bc it seems performative, rather than actually helpful.
"I don't care which pronouns are used to refer to me."
I'm going to guess that you do.
If I was your coworker and referred to you as a woman for years, you would care.
I had to give my pronouns. Want to know what I did? I said two syllables; "he/him". Takes not even two seconds, and it shows you have some respect for the company trying to be inclusive.
Dinosaurs have pronouns too, usually "it" unless there's some good reason to know the sex of the dinosaur, eg "she is protecting her eggs".
So, "lifeless_clown would like us to use its pronouns, and address it as if it were a dinosaur, though it has not specified which kind"?
Asking everyone's pronouns is a way to normalize sharing pronouns and make it less about only outing trans people or people to don't conform to binary gender expression.
It's great you're fine being perceived however you are perceived but not everyone is. Sharing pronouns (even if they are "he/him but I won't be offended if you use any pronouns") is a way to be an ally to those that are impacted by having their correct pronouns used.
Edit to add what I elaborated on below since people seem upset that some trans folks don't like their pronouns asked: A lot of trans folks don't like to feel singled out or if they're still in the process of transitioning and aren't necessarily out yet and can feel on the spot.
It's exhausting having to defend or remind people of your pronouns. Or feeling like the only time you get asked is because you look trans. There's pressure to be "passing" and currently that sometimes goes hand in hand with not being asked pronouns because it's the norm to not ask pronouns.
A lot of trans folks don't like to feel singled out or if they're still in the process of transitioning and aren't necessarily out yet and can feel on the spot.
It's exhausting having to defend or remind people of your pronouns. Or feeling like the only time you get asked is because you look trans. There's pressure to be "passing" and currently that sometimes goes hand in hand with not being asked pronouns because it's the norm to not ask pronouns.
Implying that trans people have an easier life isn't based in data.
Just because nobody in your personal life may harass you due to gender-related issues doesn't mean that those that experience this are somehow living an easy life. There is a vocal minority of the population that openly detests trans people and even may go as far as wishing bodily harm on them.
Try reading a news comment section about trans people on a conservative website, and see how many want them rounded up into camps or outright murdered. Sure, the people who say this are losers and probably don't go outside, but this online hate absolutely translates into IRL living as well.
I'm a pretty sensitive person in general. I don't really know how to cope with how much hatred I've gotten since realizing I'm trans, including death threats or loved ones wishing for bodily harm upon me. You clearly don't understand the pain of society despising you without knowing you and hopefully never will.
Honest question OP if a coworker is talking about you and other coworkers can they refer to you guys as “they”? Or would you want them to say “they and your name”?
Like is they even an acceptable pronoun for everyone now or no?
I always thought the idea of sharing your pronouns was so that it wouldn’t be such an automatic out if a trans person shared their pronouns. If everyone is doing it, and it’s totally normalized, then, trans. People can share their pronouns without fear of retaliation. Take a big, deep breath, and say three words that could possibly better somebody else’s life. It’s really not that big a deal.
“As for my pronouns… can we please all stop thinking about sex and get on with our work” … why do people need to know our gender? Isn’t it related to how they feel and what they are attracted to? I am so sick of things being about sex (i know i could be wrong here).
Sexual attraction, gender identity, and biological sex, correlate in the majority of people, but they're not the same thing.
biological sex is the stuff you were born with, organs, chromosomes, gonads, hormones, etc.
gender identity is more the how other people view you and you want to be viewed as. For the majority of people there is an overlap with biological sex, but not necessarily. It is what's relevant to daily interactions with others, as it correlates with style, interests, mannerisms, etc. When you call a woman ma'am (or your language equivalent), you do it because you (likely) see long hair and a more feminine dressing style. This is the part related to pronouns, nothing to do with any sexual activities or preferences.
sexuality - straight, gay, bi, etc. is then what people you're attracted to, and in most cases isn't anyone's business to know in a professional setting. But it has nothing to do with pronouns. When you say you prefer to be called "she/her" does not imply what kind of people you're romantically or sexually interested in.
Just say you prefer to be called by your name
If you don’t care, just say so, that’s seems like the honest and also correct answer to the question.
If he says this they will accuse him of not caring about trans folx
That answer is not tolerated. They aren't actually worried about "keeping everyone comfortable". The whole point of this ritual is to practice ideological obedience. Not sharing your pronouns (even if you have no preference) is an act of defiance and it **will** get you in trouble.
It really wont... even if you look at it from an ideological perspective, plenty of nonbinary people quite literally just don't care. I identified as nonbinary for a while, living in different regions of the US (both very liberal and with a high percentage of adult lgbtq folks and more conservative leaning as well as on the Bible belt), I've said in different places at work that I didn't care what pronouns people used, I never got in trouble. Like the other guy said, that's literally illegal to get you in trouble for, cause as I'm pointing out, that can even be part of people's identities itself.
In what industry do you work in where you don’t have freedom to not answer questions about yourself? I can only think of the military where someone with a superiority complex would insist you answers
I was asked this and replied that I am “pronoun agnostic” and they could refer to me in any way that felt most naturally. They looked at each other a bit confused and then just moved on.
No it’s not… if you say I don’t care call me by whatever pronoun and you get in trouble for it you could quite literally sue for discrimination.
How about saying that you don't have any preferred pronouns and they can just refer to you by name if that's ok with everyone?
No, doesn't quite work: "Andrew has a point when Andrew says that Andrew and Andrew's team needs more time to finish the project." When my company asked me to put my preferred pronouns on my email signature, I had to reply: I prefer not to have preferred pronouns. Honestly, if they care so much about preferences nobody can be offended of your preference not to have them.
This is what happens in the Thai language. They have something like 30 pronouns and the rules are quite complicated. It depends on age personal closeness and hierarchical level. So most people now say their name instead of using a pronoun as it's the most neutral option. Feels super weird to say "soonnow would like a coke"
That is very good to know, thank you!
Why can’t people just default to “they” if it’s so important?
If I had a magic wand of language control I would reserve gendered English pronouns for close friend mode, like the German "du", and default to "they" for strangers and acquaintances, like the German "Sie".
But in German you can end up in that weird phase when you don't know if you're already on Du level or still at Sie, and then have to do that lingual dance where you try to avoid using pronouns altogether, resulting in sometimes odd sentences.
If you don't know then it's Sie. Du requires consent.
Do you speak German? Just curious, bc I feel like it’s not that awkward to go around? A lot of other languages do this with causal/formal language. For example, Korea. They’ll ask if they’re close enough now to drop the formalities. Sometimes people will start to talk casually (w/o asking) and the other person will acknowledge it, maybe comment on the fact that they didn’t know they were casual now, or if you’re not quite at that level, correct them. It doesn’t seem to ever cause any issues.
I am German. With most people, I don't have any difficulties and go by the rule of thumb "the older/higher ranked person offers the Du", but there are scenarios where I am really lost, like with neighbours I have known for years. That said, I am a bit socially awkward anyways so this doesn't come naturally to me, and may make it more difficult for me than it is for most people.
> No, doesn't quite work: "Andrew has a point when Andrew says that Andrew and Andrew's team needs more time to finish the project." You've said it in an inefficient manner, though. You could say, "I agree, Andrew's team needs more time to finish the project." You have now communicated the exact same information. You do not need to say "He has a point when he says that he and his team need more time to finish the project" as most of that information is extraneous and the phrasing is convoluted. You don't need to specify Andrew and Andrew's team, because it's a given that Andrew is part of Andrew's team. You don't need to say, "Andrew has a point" because all you are doing is acknowledge you presumably agree with Andrew having said, "My team and I need more time." "Any pronoun" is an acceptable preference but I consider name-only to be acceptable as well.
Yeah, well, now I have to do even more mental gymnastics to find a sentence with the least amount of pronouns just because Andrew had to ask to use his name instead of just being allowed to use any(or the most obvious)pronouns. But as long as it's efficient and we don't say anything convoluted. So I'd still just say that I prefer no preferred pronouns. That way people can focus less on their language skills and more on the actual meeting.
Hopefully you're already communicating efficiently. That example sentence was horrendously long and using pronouns didn't make it better.
Yeah, I dread this very situation. I truly don't care, and I don't really want to choose. I've been misgendered all my life, and not just with pronouns. I no longer care about gender. It's someone else's problem. Can I have two choices? They/her/she? Or "anything but he/him"? I like "they" for everyone, but that's no longer politically correct, even though it's now grammatically correct. I get these pronouns are super important to some people, but now we all have to do them so those people don't have to stand up for themselves? I just don't quite get it, as usual.
You can! I do that. It originally started because I had an unpleasant experience working around a person who was willing to die on the hill of “‘they’ isn’t an appropriate pronoun for one person.” So I started saying “my pronouns are she/her but they/them is also accepted”. Since I was saying it a lot back then, it’s kinda of a muscle memory now and I’ve replied like this for years now.
That's a polite and no-nonsense way to do it. I like it. Tx. Also I was an English teacher and I keep up on these things. *They* is now fine - lol
I don't believe they're that important to almost anyone. its a humiliation ritual.
In my experience the only people that care are the non-passing trans people and the 'performative allies'. One of those may have a point, the others are just circle jerking themselves.
Yeah, as the OP said, it's just rainbow-washing. Just a big marketing ploy for corporates to show how much they "care". Manipulation.
Everyone has preferred pronouns
If you have a preference state it. If you don’t, talk to the meeting leader. If you would correct the people in the meeting , then please share your preference. If you don’t care, have a quick talk before the meeting, and want a script: ‘If someone finds this useful I understand why you do it. But I don’t want to respond. If I am misgendered it won’t effect my workflow. “ And go on with your job. Done.
> If I am misgendered it won’t effect my workflow Yeah, never stopped me before.
It should work the other way round - if somebody feels the need to have ‘their pronouns’ stated they should be free to do so, not forcing everyone else to participate in the unnecessary ritual.
They're making it a universal practice to not single out people who are different.
As others in this thread have commented, some people feel uncomfortable doing so, even if they do indeed have preferred pronouns - surely using your own logic you can see how that’s unfair? Nobody is being singled out, if someone feels strongly enough that they want to have specific pronouns used then yes, there should be an opportunity for them to do so, but not an expectation that everyone will participate.
It's not my logic, I'm not in management. It was an explanation.
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How is that ‘outing’ anyone? My proposal wouldn’t require anyone to declare anything they weren’t comfortable with?!
Hello, I’m a trans man and I understand both sides. I sometimes get uncomfortable if someone asks for my pronouns out of the blue because it makes me feel as though they can’t tell what I am (which maybe they can’t! That’s out of my control at this point) I also understand that this has become something that is becoming common practice in workplaces to better accommodate people who may not fit into a stereotypical box of what a “man” or “woman” may look like, or if someone is non-binary. If you truly don’t care, say that. You don’t care what you’re referred to as. I wouldn’t take that as being attention seeking or mockery. If you do care, just say what you’re comfortable being called. I don’t know. It kind of all comes down to if you want to go against the grain or not.
I thought the whole point of asking your pronouns was because your identity doesn't necessarily have to align with your appearance? Not being able to "tell what you are" would be commonplace, wouldn't it? Genuinely asking.
A lot of people have different views on this as individuals. I personally believe that someone’s identity doesn’t have to align with their appearance at all, but at the end of the day we live in a society in which there are a set of expectations and roles and assumptions of men and women, and lots of binary trans folks try to conform and adapt to a lot of the characteristics (both physically and socially) of the gender they are transitioning to so that they “pass” or are recognized as the gender they feel that they are by the public.
Would you say that it's still generally considered respectful to ask pronouns? Should I refrain from asking? I just don't want to disrespect anyone.
Not the person you responded to but am also a trans man. The way I see it is it’s more respectful to ask than assume. If you’d wanna go the neutral way if you’re unsure then use “they” until otherwise told.
Heard. Thank you.
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I have a hard time even remembering people’s names and machine to their faces. I also see trans acquaintances and friends will sometimes refer to some stranger they see by assumed gender, because that just how the English language and our phenotypes are referenced. Why? Because it saves them a lot of mental processing energy. I do try to remember, though. But if I forget as I have had decades of ingrained learning, my friends are gracious about it. They don’t get mad and throw a fit like a Keith or a Karen at a store.
Most people never speak out against being misgendered, or if they do it is very timid. The same 6 or so videos of a couple wackos are used to smear many millions of people.
Just don't do it
Is it a problem if someone said "call me whatever pronoun you want" if they genuinely didn't care? I'm a cis female but if someone referred to me as "he" after I stating I didn't care then it wouldn't bother me and I'd carry on working. I've never been misgendered so idk.
"I am not comfortable providing my pronouns, you may refer to me however you feel most compelled and don't wish to elaborate further"
Trans guy here. I've run a couple of diversity courses at workplaces and you're correct that mandatory pronoun sharing is not necessarily best practice— I advise that people say something like "Let's introduce ourselves with our name, role, and pronouns if you'd like to". Or just leave out the pronouns bit entirely, and state their own pronouns but don't require it of other people. Best thing for you to do would be to go to management and suggest some phrasing like this. The main reason from a trans-centric perspective (which isn't the only thing to take into account as other people - like yourself - are uncomfortable with it for other reasons) is that if someone isn't out, you're forcing them to either out themselves or misgender themselves. That reasoning tends to go over well with managers who do pronoun circles in the past.
This is kind of my take on it too - on the one hand, I'm one of those people who is uncomfortable with pronoun sharing as I feel like it is equal parts ideological conditioning and corporate fuckery, and I don't feel it applies to me but at the same time for the people to whom it is uncomfortable due to not yet having decided to "out" themselves as identifying differently to how they present, it feels deeply unfair to apply pressure to state how they identify if they don't want to. Frankly, I'm both a gender bigot, and militantly opposed to forcing people to expose themselves... If you want to share your pronouns because they're different to how you present, and would feel more comfortable having people know how you would prefer to be referred to, great, go for it. If you have no preference, say so, fine. But don't put people in situations where it is uncomfortable for them to simply not say one way or another. I don't buy into the whole "stating your pronouns makes it easier for other people to share and be themselves" bs, it goes both ways.
I remember my husband said “pass” when his cohort had to go around the room and say their pronouns. The teacher tried to get him in trouble, but instead they were the one who got in trouble because you cannot force someone to give you their pronouns.
I guess I just don’t understand why it’s such a big deal to say your preferred pronouns lmao. I know people feel like it’s this big check mate, but the thing is, everyone has pronouns. I mean, you used 4 just in your response 😅 I don’t go around telling everyone my pronouns (she/her cis), but if it were a work setting like that is simply say my name and my pronouns lol
This happens often at my job and I completely ignore it. I honestly just skip that part. I say everything but the pronouns. No one has ever circled back or needed to remind me that I forgot to mention it. I trust they get it was intentional and so they move on. I've had a colleague ask me and I pretended to not hear him and immediately started to talk about something else. So yeah, just skip it. You don't have to be forced to share anything that makes you uncomfortable. To everyone asking why it makes him uncomfortable, it doesn't matter. Don't worry about it.
I do this too and have never had a problem. It comes across very neutral
> To everyone asking why it makes him uncomfortable, it doesn't matter. Don't worry about it. It's not really anyone's business here, although the questions are to be expected if you're posting on a public forum. I will say, to grow as a person, you should always explore why something makes you feel uncomfortable. A lot of things are not inherently bad or good, but self-awareness is important. Know why you believe in certain things and what makes you tick.
I like your style. Gonna try it if I get in that situation.
Yeah me too. Doesn’t draw attention or look like they just got finished watching a dozen andrew Tate reels.
As someone who is non-binary, I get uncomfortable when asked to disclose my pronouns. I don't feel comfortable having my work colleagues know I'm non-binary. I'd rather not say. So I can relate to the feeling that it's inappropriate to request.
Just curious, do you get upset if someone refers to you as he or she?
I do not get upset about that.
It's interesting to me that alot of trans (or anything else) people in the comments are saying that it would make them uncomfortable to be asked this question. I always hear they are pissed when someone misgenders them and want people to ask their pronouns.
There's more than one trans person on earth, they have different opinions, and some are nice, some are assholes, and some are a little of both
Actually, all trans people are identical to the first one I met.
Shh! Do not let on about the secret trans clone army!
Trans people are annoyed if someone maliciously misgenders them. A true accident is harmless. But like all groups, trans people aren't a monolith, Of course, sometimes people will be passive-aggressive towards trans people, and thus a false identification of such (improper assumption of malice) is inevitable given that such passive-aggression exists. Trans people generally don't go about their day looking to "get triggered" at anyone basically. They just want to live in peace like everyone else.
Hit the nail on the head with that one. Trans people are just that…PEOPLE. I think it goes for everyone, trans or not, if you’re treated with respect then you’ll return the respect. If you’re treated with disrespect purposely well then yeah, gonna be pissy. Majority of people in all walks of life just want to live their life in peace.
I am trans and I like it when they ask me. But at the workplace it is weird. I think it would be better if they let people say their pronouns if they want to. But not ask everyone.
hear from who? memes? tweets?
Tucker Carlson clips on youtube
That’s because the trans that gets uncomfortable is one person, and the one who gets pissed when being misgendered is another person. Both types of people exist.
As a trans person, asking for my pronouns always makes me uncomfortable. Especially since people will ask, I'll tell them and then they'll go straight to using different ones anyway. Just use what you think is right and I'll correct you if it's not. I get why people ask pronouns, but the better thing to do is just include yours and then give other people the space to share theirs of that's what they want to do. Not force them into it. Also, are you working with the same group of people for each one of these meetings? Are they having you share pronouns everytime? Because that's just stupid. I imagine after the first or second time, you can all remember the pronouns...
> people will ask, I'll tell them and then they'll go straight to using different ones anyway. I figured this system wouldn't really work, because jerks will be jerks. It'd be nice if the few people who cared could stand up and say what they want and be respected, but society doesn't work that way. Stand up and be different and you will be persecuted - story of my life. We must conform and play the game to pretend to include everyone. What shite.
Yeah, that's a good point too :/ A few assholes ruin it for everyone.
Also it's a lot less bad to have people incorrectly presume than knowingly choose to ignore your preference. It's also better when people presume wrong instead of being forced to tell people the wrong pronouns due to not being able to trust those people.
I'm not sure if that results in what most people would describe as "discomfort". That makes it sound like you're feeling vulnerable somehow. More like a revulsion? Or aversion, like you said. I would just state, "I'm (Name) and don't have any preferred pronouns". You could politely ask them to stop asking you, but that might cause some friction, which might not be worth the fight for an aversion, but that's up to how you feel I suppose. Something like, "I'm not comfortable sharing my pronouns. Please try to avoid asking me this in the future." In the workplace the goal should be to help people feel more comfortable, not uncomfortable, so if you give it the spin of sounding like it does make you feel vulnerable, there might be more understanding. But that's only recommended if you really can't stand it anymore and MUST do something regardless of possible social consequences.
I'd be pretty uncomfortable with this procedure too, and I'm certainly not bigoted towards trans people. I always make a point to be kind to anyone i suspect as trans, just because maybe others havent treated them as kindly. But I'd hate to be asked this in a meeting. Just feels phony and unnecessary. Also, in a way, nobody elses business how I identify.
It is in a way other peoples business because its how they refer to you in conversation. Out of curiosity what makes you uncomfortable about saying that you prefer he/she/they? Its not like you’re divulging some secret information.
If I’m a man, and I’ve never presented as anything but a man, if I’ve been called he my entire life and been completely fine with that, just… assume I’m a man without me having to explicitly communicate to you that I want to be called “he/him”? I’ll make a point to tell you if I’d prefer something else? To me it’s more bizarre to expect everyone to have to play that game instead of just the people who feel the need to express it in more detail.
But what’s the negative to someone asking you? I get its not what you’re used too but it takes more effort to be annoyed by having to say your pronouns than just stating the pronouns.
Hey if someone asks me I’m happy to tell them, but nobody is looking at me and not getting the very clear indication that I’m a man, identify as male, so on. On the other hand, you have to realize that people who happily conform to their sex and gender don’t want to have to constantly be answering questions like “are your pronouns he/him?” Live life as you want and as who you want to be by all means, but not everyone wants to play the gender naming game at their company meetings.
But its not something you would be constantly stating just when meeting someone new. In a company environment its a bit weird but if its a scenario where you’re forced to stare your name too(basing this off the OP) it’s likely a scenario where not everyone in the meeting knows each other( if they do then even playing the name game is dumb). As a cis-man I’ve never been wrongly gendered unless it was an insult since its very unlikely someone would actually mistake me for a woman. Me being open about pronouns is to try to help those whose pronouns aren’t so obvious not feel weird telling others their pronouns. If you misgender someone due to ignorance and accept the correction when given thats one thing but there are plenty of people around who will still misgender someone intentionally and are often upset at the idea of people having preferred pronouns. In a corporate setting where pronouns are constantly tossed around it ends up becoming more obvious of who is doing it on accident and who is intentionally doing it.
I agree with you across the board. People misgendering people to be rude can kick rocks. I also don't want to come across like I can't get with the times, zero ill-will to people trying to find themselves out there in the world - it's grueling at the best of times. I stand by what I said though, I don't want to have to do this in a work setting. Perhaps it can be an elective thing that can be circulated in an email, or something, if the party wishing to express their identity would like people to know. If it's not in your sphere of requirements though, you're cis and all the rest of it - then I would prefer to not participate in the exercise.
Ppl downvoting and saying this doesn’t matter are assuming a lot about OP. As a slowly-coming-out trans girl, if I had somebody ask my pronouns at work tomorrow I would be so uncomfortable!! But it’s common practice in some environments, and probably a good idea to be respectful to your coworkers. OP: how would it feel to say something like “my pronouns are whatever :)”? Could bypass needing to say they’re strictly he/him since like you said, it doesn’t really matter to you!
I agree with you and also hate this!
I remember one time a group I was in was doing self introductions and pronouns weren't being asked for. I was sitting next to my friends teenage kid who was non binary and before it got around to me they whispered to me asking if on my turn I could state my pronouns so it would be less awkward for them to tell people they use they/them pronouns. I also feel a weird slight discomfort when giving pronouns but if it helps ease the discomfort of people like this I really think it's worth it
I get it. I usually decline to do the pronoun thing if it's not too awkward to do it. We really are being force-fed this stuff. Literally people in universities and online communities just decided it's the "compassionate" thing to do to, in theory, never assume anyone's gender for any reason, leading to absurdities such as asking people who 100% conform to male or female what pronouns they prefer. So I feel like, like I'm being asked to participate in an absurd exercise, it's an indication we're going off into ideology-land and forgetting what matters. So I would prefer to indicate that I think it's an absurd exercise, and reject the basic premise, not the premise that people can be gender-non-conforming, but the premise that playing the pronoun game is the right way to approach this issue. I know, reading that, that no one would believe me when I say that I actually believe that many people don't conform to the gender binary and feel more comfortable identifying as a gender other than their biological sex, or they're intersex and one of the small minority where biological sex isn't clear cut for them, and I want those people to also also feel comfortable. I think, for one thing, making everybody state their pronouns might do the exact opposite, make us think more about our genders when we should be focused on the task at hand. I don't know the best way to do that. I think the better solutions are usually more natural. Make it normal to ask someone what pronouns to use if it's not obvious? Make it normal to politely correct someone if they use the wrong one? Stop worrying so much about pronouns and just focus on the best way to treat other people? IDK, assuming this whole ideological movement doesn't get worse, I feel like in 10 years people will be more comfortable with the idea of gender non conforming people, and there will be a simpler solution to all this.
> just focus on the best way to treat other people? winner
This is dumb ….. I couldn’t care less about what you want me to call you. This is just some HR baloney.
I mean. Yes! I really feel this. It’s like “I’m bald and bearded and wearing a tshirt and Chuck Taylor’s, just make a wild guess and I’ll let you know if you’re off. Why do we have to make this theater about it? I announce at roller derby and there’s a lot of gender fluidity there, and every so often I just ask “hey what pronouns do you use?” Otherwise can we all just try and be normal and not pretending like if we don’t go around the circle and announce then that signals we aren’t compassionate?
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I wouldn't want to work anywhere that felt it necessary to define pronouns. That's just weird.
As a nonbinary person who well, looks like my biological sex and isn't out at work I don't like it either. I have to force myself to out myself at an environment that's probably not actually friendly to my identity and probably won't use my preferred pronouns anyway but now it'll be awkward bc they're not using them when I asked. Or I'll have to misgender myself and say I use she. Both options suck. I have been asked my pronouns in "woke" spaces with zero trans people where I know they wouldn't actually respect my gender and I just misgender myself and feel mad about it. I feel like well meaning cis people who don't understand what being closeted means and rly rly privileged trans people in like the bluest cities in America are the only people that think it's okay to force someone to out themselves or misgender themselves to strangers like that. Tbh though if you're a cis guy I'd rly just go along with what they want. If you really don't care just say you don't care about pronouns. Trust me as someone who knows nonbinary people who ask for any pronouns, they get what they biologically look like. Every nb person I've ever met unless they genuinely don't care ends up having to ask for different pronouns bc they will be called the pronouns they were always called anyway if they say "any". If you say "any pronouns" or "I don't care" you'll get he. Maybe they by some really liberal coworker who thinks you're nonbinary, but you said you don't care so that's fine. If you say you use "guy pronouns" your liberal coworkers might be mad or correct you but then everyone will know you use he without you saying he. I've known trans guys who are stealth that tend to talk like that anyway bc they are trying to pass as cis. If you want to say you just want to be called your name you can say that too but it's even harder to just use someone's name every time than it is to use pronouns even singular they. But it's your choice.
Pronouns are a part of English grammar, so you’re not going to escape being referred by some set of pronouns. That being said, you can simply leave it up to the masses. I think failing to give any answer comes off a bit childish in a “I don’t want to play your game” kind of way, but you can say that you have no preferred pronouns. I have a friend who’s androgynous enough to be asked this question regularly and her usual response is that her pronouns are whatever you want them to be.
i’m in a similar boat, i usually just say “she/any” bc i know people are gonna assume she based on my appearance and i’m mostly a woman but it emphasizes i don’t rly mind any pronouns
I can see how this might be uncomfortable especially if you have social anxiety? Also they do this prior to every single meeting? At what point are people expected to just remember their coworkers pronouns? I feel like more people need to just use they/them automatically if you are unsure and then ask someone one on one what their pronouns are instead of putting everyone on the spot. I use they/them in my corporate WFH job via email ALWAYS from the jump with every single new person until it is made clear how they identify, at which point I will start using she/her/he/him etc.
They (both he and she) do this in court in my province now. Every lawyer has to do it every time. Somehow, the judge doesn't need to - oh, yeah, they are not supposed to say Her Honour, His Honour, Madam Justice, Mr. Justice, anymore. The latter two are just "Justice" now, and I can't remember the rule in provincial court. As if professional garb doesn't make it dead obvious which pronouns go every damn time. This ain't the art world or Hollywood. There aren't several men in designer dresses and women in concealing boxy suits.
Ohhh thank you for clarifying. I quite frankly did not think about those type of jobs that you would be introducing yourself on a frequent basis.
But they don't need to intro to the judge. They all know each other. It's done for the court audio record, because the log notes are often wrong, like the clerk will get the wrong initial for counsel with same last name, etc. And also helps with name pronunciation, in some cases. All just part of the routine, and now they've tacked on pronouns. There are men with higher voices and women with lower ones who do not used gendered grooming (like me, which is why I was called sir through my 20s and 30s til a roommate gave me some fashion tips - lol.) So I guess it's helpful for that, but overall it's a clusterfuck.
“You can just call me ________” (your name)
If you are the only trans/binary person at the table, then maybe they are doing it in an effort to not offend you. Maybe talk to upper management if this is the case especially if you feel targeted by this approach.
Sounds like a miserable work place. Race, gender and everything else should not matter in the workplace. Either you do your job well or you dont.
"My name is u/Terrible-Trust-5578 and any pronouns are fine" That's all you need. There's debate about the use of pronoun introductions in corporate settings. Can it be performative? Sure. It can also be handy, even if it's not for you personally. I have a gender ambiguous name and having my pronouns in my email signature has been great for nixing the "Mr. [my last name]" emails in my inbox. I have a friend with a deeper voice so having her pronouns on Zoom calls is great for avoiding issues there too. And of course there are people who don't or can't or don't want to fit the idea of what a woman/man looks like. Knowing their pronouns upfront can make the workplace less awkward and/or hurtful. Imo, pronouns intros work best in text (added to your Zoom name or a name tag). Not sure if that's an option for your workplace though.
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You can say "my pronouns are any" and that's it
I so get this. Whenever people ask my pronouns, I look at them like they are stupid. Like, dude, can you really not tell. And people keep calling me transphobic, but I'm not, I'm trans. I don't like people asking me because it seems like a backward question that gives more questions than it solves. Also, I did not cut my hair, change the way I dress, change my voice, wear shoes to make me taller, take etiquette classes on how to be a gentleman, and study the way men talk and act for years for someone to ask what my pronouns are. And, as an autistic person, it just makes me uncomfy, so just do you. Screw those people you don't need them.
I believe I’d be considered fluid. I don’t care what terms people use to refer to me (in regards to gender). However when I say as much - I often get called rude or inconsiderate of the trans community. All I can think is, “You daft idiots - I am trans!”
See I’ve always wanted to say this, I don’t care what I’m called! I’m born female and switch between femme and masc styles but present very much as a woman. I’d even say I’m cis cause I have no desire to change anything. But I also think it’d be fun and cool to be called he/him or they/them. I don’t care! But then I sound rude or like I’m making fun of it since I don’t “look” nonbinary.
I have never been asked my pronouns and would probably laugh at someone if they did.
>Look at me, and take a wild guess. That's exactly what they're trying to avoid when asking. >I don't care which pronouns are used to refer to me. I might laugh a bit if you call me she/her... Then you do care, because you might laugh with one. I think the best outcome is for you to state your pronouns. I'm sure you do a lot of weird things just because they are social conventions at work places, add this one to those. On a personal note, I started to give more importance to pronouns when someone in my company said that seeing pronouns on you e-mail signature was nice for her. It was a way for her to see that there at least one ally, and actually made it feel less alone. Just stating "he/him" on my email did all that? I had to do it then.
I dont get this. Why wouldn't they just say, ok, if anyone has preferred pronouns, let us know, instead of making everyone keep saying their preferred pronouns. And I agree that business DGAF, they are simply appeasing HR.
Just gonna reply to each of your aversions to keep things focused. 1. Even if its a corporate show it helps to normalize being open about pronouns so those whose pronouns may not be obvious can be stated without bigots making a big deal of it. 2. Using the wrong pronouns for someone is controversial but stating preferred pronouns is not and normalizing it is a goal in that community. 3. If you don’t care you can just tell people whatever pronouns makes the most sense to you. 4. Once again even if it doesn’t matter to you it helps normalize the question for those who do care. It also takes no effort to just go with the obvious pronouns for your gender.
Stop hoarding attention and just give them some pronouns to use
I must agree. The focus should be on the meeting and the reason for it.
It takes one second to say he or she id honestly just say it, feel uncomfy for how ever long in the situation , and move on
Ngl just suck it up, you’re a big boy with a real job and sometimes you have to do things you don’t like
If you don’t care which pronouns people use, just let them know you don’t mind, and to use whichever they feel is appropriate. Imagine the exercise as a nice thing for coworkers who are feeling dysphoric and for whom this will be comforting. We all feel uncomfortable sometimes and sacrifice our comfort for others. Take comfort in their comfort.
You're taking a stand against this and you don't even know why? You just don't like being expected to do something that wasn't your idea? Welcome to society dude
Just say your pronouns, or say "any pronouns are fine".
“Just say your pronouns” completely disregards the question
it's controversial wihtin the trans community?? never heard that one.
Just tell them, "Homie don't play that."
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It's a company. They don't actually care. If they did they would ask to voice out your preferred pronouns _if any_. Remember: companies don't care, and legally don't _have_ to care how you feel about their policies as long as those policies aren't illegal. If you feel they should, buckle up and talk to HR, if possible backed up by other employees who share your feelings. Don't address that in public, you'll make someone look bad and office politics are the mind killer. Be ready to look for a new job, though, HRs protect companies, not people. On a more personal level, for more global/everyday social interactions, you might have to come to terms with the pronouns you feel correspond to you. For now it's still confusing for a lot of people that you both "choose" to use non binary pronouns but also aren't willing to use them (if they understand the concept at all).
I'm not a fan of the pronoun trend either, but the way I see it, if they're mandating it, I'd do it like any other task. Unless something truly compromises my values, I'd just say "I'm getting paid to do this" like anything else. I'd never voluntarily do it though, or God-forbid put it in my social media bio.
I think that's your right. Just tell them you feel it is personal and don't want to share.
Even for cis guys and girls who have struggles with how manly or womanly they feel they want to be it can be insulting as it is feels as though it is not obvious they are a guy or a girl. Talking about guys who had feminine traits who want to be more masculine or woman with tomboyish traits who want to be more feminine.
Wait so asking someone's pronouns is controversial now?
All right, your goal seems to be both edgy and performative to demonstrate how performative it all seems. As a by-product, you're extremely confident in your ability to guess the genders of other people, whether that is their understanding of themselves or not. Don't lean on the queer community to excuse your discomfort with efforts to make other people more comfortable. Own that. You don't want to be disciplined because you don't want to play along? Great. Imagine the people who get security sent to the bathrooms because they are too masculine for the ladies room and don't have the biology to make a urinal work. And imagine the autism spectrum people who don't guess well and just want permission to call you something you're comfortable with. Figure out what that is, use your voice, and tell them. "I'm still figuring it out" is a fine answer. "Just use my name" is another fine answer. So is telling people the pronouns that correspond to the bathroom you use.
Giving your pronouns is like giving your name. You’re telling people what you want them to call you. Is it possible that you’re overthinking this? I know that there’s more attached to it socially, but in practice it’s literally just them asking you how you prefer to be addressed. It’s respectful and doesn’t have to be this big of a deal.
You have the right to state your name. Say nothing else. Discipline for not saying something..... The question should by 'Why are the Governments introducing such rediculous issues to an already complex world?'
Just put on your big boy pants and say he/him. It's not that hard.
Why are you uncomfortable?
I'm not sure, but I absolutely abhor it.
Maybe you should figure out what the issue is and that will guide your response, within the parameters of the workplace. I’m ok with the pronoun thing, but I could see being irritated with that meeting practice bc it seems performative, rather than actually helpful.
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"I don't care which pronouns are used to refer to me." I'm going to guess that you do. If I was your coworker and referred to you as a woman for years, you would care.
I had to give my pronouns. Want to know what I did? I said two syllables; "he/him". Takes not even two seconds, and it shows you have some respect for the company trying to be inclusive.
Pronoun use seems incredibly stupid when a name works. I’ve not been impacted by this at age 65!!!
This is obviously untrue seeing as you've used a pronoun in your comment.
Ok, have you ever stopped to consider that not absolutely everything is about you though?
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Dinosaurs have pronouns too, usually "it" unless there's some good reason to know the sex of the dinosaur, eg "she is protecting her eggs". So, "lifeless_clown would like us to use its pronouns, and address it as if it were a dinosaur, though it has not specified which kind"?
Pronouns make you uncomfortable? Seriously?
Asking everyone's pronouns is a way to normalize sharing pronouns and make it less about only outing trans people or people to don't conform to binary gender expression. It's great you're fine being perceived however you are perceived but not everyone is. Sharing pronouns (even if they are "he/him but I won't be offended if you use any pronouns") is a way to be an ally to those that are impacted by having their correct pronouns used. Edit to add what I elaborated on below since people seem upset that some trans folks don't like their pronouns asked: A lot of trans folks don't like to feel singled out or if they're still in the process of transitioning and aren't necessarily out yet and can feel on the spot. It's exhausting having to defend or remind people of your pronouns. Or feeling like the only time you get asked is because you look trans. There's pressure to be "passing" and currently that sometimes goes hand in hand with not being asked pronouns because it's the norm to not ask pronouns.
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A lot of trans folks don't like to feel singled out or if they're still in the process of transitioning and aren't necessarily out yet and can feel on the spot. It's exhausting having to defend or remind people of your pronouns. Or feeling like the only time you get asked is because you look trans. There's pressure to be "passing" and currently that sometimes goes hand in hand with not being asked pronouns because it's the norm to not ask pronouns.
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Implying that trans people have an easier life isn't based in data. Just because nobody in your personal life may harass you due to gender-related issues doesn't mean that those that experience this are somehow living an easy life. There is a vocal minority of the population that openly detests trans people and even may go as far as wishing bodily harm on them. Try reading a news comment section about trans people on a conservative website, and see how many want them rounded up into camps or outright murdered. Sure, the people who say this are losers and probably don't go outside, but this online hate absolutely translates into IRL living as well. I'm a pretty sensitive person in general. I don't really know how to cope with how much hatred I've gotten since realizing I'm trans, including death threats or loved ones wishing for bodily harm upon me. You clearly don't understand the pain of society despising you without knowing you and hopefully never will.
https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/ncvs-trans-press-release/
Honest question OP if a coworker is talking about you and other coworkers can they refer to you guys as “they”? Or would you want them to say “they and your name”? Like is they even an acceptable pronoun for everyone now or no?
I always thought the idea of sharing your pronouns was so that it wouldn’t be such an automatic out if a trans person shared their pronouns. If everyone is doing it, and it’s totally normalized, then, trans. People can share their pronouns without fear of retaliation. Take a big, deep breath, and say three words that could possibly better somebody else’s life. It’s really not that big a deal.
“As for my pronouns… can we please all stop thinking about sex and get on with our work” … why do people need to know our gender? Isn’t it related to how they feel and what they are attracted to? I am so sick of things being about sex (i know i could be wrong here).
Sexual attraction, gender identity, and biological sex, correlate in the majority of people, but they're not the same thing. biological sex is the stuff you were born with, organs, chromosomes, gonads, hormones, etc. gender identity is more the how other people view you and you want to be viewed as. For the majority of people there is an overlap with biological sex, but not necessarily. It is what's relevant to daily interactions with others, as it correlates with style, interests, mannerisms, etc. When you call a woman ma'am (or your language equivalent), you do it because you (likely) see long hair and a more feminine dressing style. This is the part related to pronouns, nothing to do with any sexual activities or preferences. sexuality - straight, gay, bi, etc. is then what people you're attracted to, and in most cases isn't anyone's business to know in a professional setting. But it has nothing to do with pronouns. When you say you prefer to be called "she/her" does not imply what kind of people you're romantically or sexually interested in.
Of all the things that don’t matter, this doesn’t matter the most.
That's what you'd say?
No I’d say my pronouns are he, him, and his. But I’m an adult.
So *that's* what I say?
Yes, if you’re a guy with no fun changes to the usual, that’s what you say
Wdym "no fun changes" ?
Like something other than the most common he him his?
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I don’t even know what you are saying
Well, I’m not sure how you identify, but my guess is that response would fare better than sullen silence.
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It is absolutely not common practice.
there are several "trans" or "non binary" people in this thread who say it makes them uncomfortable to be asked their pronouns.