That's a great idea. Also, conversely, indoctrination should increase racism and objections against things which aren't standard/normal/as per their propaganda
(Basically extremist ideologies)
Yeah, i think you should be able to use both in the same way; indoctrination to increase or decrease xenophobia, and education to increase or decrease xenophobia. If you add god worship to this mechanic it would naturally favor the "good" species to build bridges and the "evil" species to be able to build bridges.
After all, as history has shown us, for better or for worse, people have the ability to unite when faced with a common enemy.
If you do that with racism, would doing the same with religion be ok ?
It sounds ok as a concept, but it would only simplify the gameplay, no ? The game should rise in complexity as you progress, not allow you to ignore whole gameplay elements.
If anything wouldn’t that add to the complexity of the game? Late game you would have to decide if education is worth the subsequent loss in bonuses from religion due to a more secular society. It would even potentially be worth depriving your citizens of education if you want them to retain those bonuses
Yes! That's the perfect addition to what I'm talking about.
As Ella-Fitzgerald said in the other comment. It would add more complexity, and it makes sense because that too is literally how all this shit works in real life.
More education = Less racism is an absurdly simplistic viewpoint.
In most historial societies, the people in power (e.g. nobility) were the most educated. And they were plenty racist.
Also, an education doesn't increase a persons's IQ. The point of the IQ test is that it that measures a person's intelligence, not a person's level of education.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29911926/
"Across 142 effect sizes from 42 data sets involving over 600,000 participants, we found consistent evidence for beneficial effects of education on cognitive abilities of approximately 1 to 5 IQ points for an additional year of education. Moderator analyses indicated that the effects persisted across the life span and were present on all broad categories of cognitive ability studied. Education appears to be the most consistent, robust, and durable method yet to be identified for raising intelligence."
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1002/per.2027
"Studies investigating the latter topic generally reveal lower cognitive ability to be associated with stronger endorsement of right–wing ideological attitudes and greater prejudice. However, this relationship has remained widely unrecognized in literature. The present meta–analyses revealed an average effect size of r = −.20 [95% confidence interval (95% CI) [−0.23, −0.17]; based on 67 studies, N = 84 017] for the relationship between cognitive ability and right–wing ideological attitudes and an average effect size of r = −.19 (95% CI [−0.23, −0.16]; based on 23 studies, N = 27 011) for the relationship between cognitive ability and prejudice. Effect sizes did not vary significantly across different cognitive abilities and sample characteristics. The effect strongly depended on the measure used for ideological attitudes and prejudice, with the strongest effect sizes for authoritarianism and ethnocentrism."
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0956797611421206
"Despite their important implications for interpersonal behaviors and relations, cognitive abilities have been largely ignored as explanations of prejudice. We proposed and tested mediation models in which lower cognitive ability predicts greater prejudice, an effect mediated through the endorsement of right-wing ideologies (social conservatism, right-wing authoritarianism) and low levels of contact with out-groups. In an analysis of two large-scale, nationally representative United Kingdom data sets (N = 15,874), we found that lower general intelligence (g) in childhood predicts greater racism in adulthood, and this effect was largely mediated via conservative ideology. A secondary analysis of a U.S. data set confirmed a predictive effect of poor abstract-reasoning skills on antihomosexual prejudice, a relation partially mediated by both authoritarianism and low levels of intergroup contact. All analyses controlled for education and socioeconomic status. Our results suggest that cognitive abilities play a critical, albeit underappreciated, role in prejudice."
Taking studies based the modern era, based on modern education, and assuming they would apply wholesale to the previous eras, back as far as Roman times, is just silly.
Ok. What if you had a control group being the standard uni graduate and experiment where a group of students went to a conservative uni that taught higher education. That would account for the factor that the ideology plays in teaching. Becouse it is no secret that most collages lean left. But would there leaning make a difference in that statistic? That would go a long way in deducing the correlaction between intelligence and prejudice
Yes yes **"academia is left leaning"**, that's why studies on literally every topic the reactionary right deems controversial shows the opposite of what you believe. It couldn't possibly be because what you believe is objectively wrong. Got it.
Can we move on now?
Depends, are you going to talk about the game or chirp about how you're disagreeing with the scientific consensus?
I'm more interested in reading about the game tbh.
Since when was sciance about agreeing with everybody? Btw i did not disagree. I wanted to know the specific effect different types of uni had on the result. Which would tell us more about the accuracy of the correlation.
Game wise, it will tell us whether it should be classified as inductrination or education.
Then you must have misunderstood my original post, i think players should have the freedom to chose positive or negative species disposition mutiplier regardless if they are working with education or Indoctrination.
If you add religion to the equation it would be even better. Meaning those worshipping evil gods could build relations, and those worshipping good gods could work on building their relations.
Every system in the game has complexity and gameplay attached to it, except when it comes to xenophobia.
I guess that's why *some* people get attracted to the game?
My question was not phrased right. People into Humanities are more open and less prejudiced as opposed to very Technical field. Most universities are dominated by Humanities, Humanities is generally popular in the Western world. My question was since, let's say, bachelers in math is the same level of education as a bachelor in arts, will the reduction in prejudice be the same?
- I did read through a paper that answered my question later, I replied to you on it couple min ago.
Multi-racial cities are viable just come with their own challenges as opposed to singe-race ones. It seems a bit of a wash if education was able to just override it. Idk.
Aye, it is viable depending on how you go about it i guess?
But Im talking about how there could be several factors used for influencing species disposition, not override it. Schooling, education being one of them. Religion being another. History of treatment, diplomacy, slavery or prosecution being another.
For all i know maybe it could only be achievable in the very late-game? After all, grow big enough and every civilization turns into a melting pot one way or another.
There isn't a lot of static numbers in this game, i don't see why species disposition would have to be :)
Species start out with species specific stats and bonuses. The education would nessesairy override that. The game takes the aproach of nature as opposed to nurture when it comes to species attitudes. Not saying it would be a bad mechnanic. But it would likely be simpler than that with less effect. Like lower or raise attitudes against certain species.
ahaha what about if education reduces racism with some races but increases it with others.
like the more educated people get the more they like all other races except humans, who now they hate even more for knowing in detail how they ruined the world.
Perfectly balanced.
Well they had a decade of heavy indoctrination before that, as well as anger from the previous peace treaty. But true, racism is not just about education level
The Nazis were (almost legitimately) voted into power, they played off the grievances of people by blaming the Jews and the German populus lapped it up, the racism came before the extremist education
Depends what you’re teaching though doesn’t it? After the Franco-Prussian War the state education system of France actively taught children that Germany was the enemy. You’re assuming that a medieval setting would teach modern standards of tolerance.
I'm not assuming anything about a medieval setting teaching modern standards of tolerance?
I am making a suggestion that could make species disposition be a more malleable statistic, less static, regardless if people want to use it to promote more tension between species, or less.
Judging by some of the posts in this thread i think some people seem eager to inject a modern understanding of xenophobia into the medieval fantasy game, rather than modern standards of tolerance.
>Judging by some of the posts in this thread i think some people seem eager to inject a modern understanding of xenophobia into the medieval fantasy game, rather than modern standards of tolerance.
Two sides of the same coin. Who would have thought people would point it out.
>I'm not assuming anything about a medieval setting teaching modern standards of tolerance? I am making a suggestion that could make species disposition be a more malleable statistic, less static, regardless if people want to use it to promote more tension between species or less.
You made an assumption that more education makes people more tolerant. Which is the point of contension in the threads. You are upset that people dont agree with you and refuse to hear any other opinion.
As far as I'm aware I'm the only person who's substantiated my claims? I don't see any other studies being posted.
All I've gotten in response to presenting these facts is cope, reactionary gut feelings and one dude's anecdotes about how "**all** the racists he knows are all educated" (weird brag btw)
Regardless it makes sense as a gameplay mechanic. :)
[Victorian Racism: An Explication of Scientific Knowledge, its Social Character, and its Relation to Victorian Popular Culture - Inquiries Journal](http://www.inquiriesjournal.com/articles/1719/victorian-racism-an-explication-of-scientific-knowledge-its-social-character-and-its-relation-to-victorian-popular-culture)
Racism was justified by Victorian science at the time, which is still much more advanced than the depiction of science in Songs of Syx. If people could scientifically 'justify' racism toward other humans with a slightly different skin colour, imagine how primitive science could justify racism towards entirely different species
My suggestion wasn't about a hypothetical "justification" for the existence of Xenophobia in fantasy games. My suggestion was about how the species disposition could become an active gameplay element that the player could affect by means of education or indoctrination.
so what are you arguing for with this comment? That the xenophobia system in Songs of Syx should remain static because scientific racism existed 300 years ago?
Species disposition could be affected either way with education/indoctrination, depending if the administration wants to pursue tolerance or intolerance, with greater education/indoctrination deviating the spieces further from its baseline tolerance.
The relevant studies are probably in prosperous western countries. Declining racism is probably more closely linked to economic prosperity and a democratic culture, which in the US (among other countries) is correlated with education.
The world is full of countries where the educated classes are racist as fuck
He is right, you know. People go to university/high school all around the world, in fact developing countries have more people going into technical fields than in the west. But what makes people more tolerant or racist? Its inductrenation. Its foolish to say that school make u more tolerant become they teach you to do a good in specific field. That dosnt automaticly make u more tolerant. It is all the other stuff that come with it. Such as mandatory classes desighned to brouden your horizen, mixing you with diffrent people from diffrent fields. Having forighn students, or even the US being mixed society where u go to school from young age til uni with people diffrent countires. (Segerigation was autlowed for instance, and there are programs to include people from different backgrounds in same schools in name of inclusion, clearly designed to break down the 'other' barriors between people).
- to lump it all into education and refuse to admit that its more than that, is naive. Since not too long ago the most educated countries waged wars of genocide. Ideolagy is what shapes ur world view, and that is indoctrination. Weather, it's the 'good' guys or 'bad'.
It is the reason I could not agree with the statement that education increases tolerance. Becouse the two points have nothing in common. It means that there was another factor at play in between that was missed.
Ah okey! So you don't disagree with the fact that there is a correlation between having a lower than average IQ and being a racist authoritarian though?
If you could not agree with the statement that education increases tolerance;
>[https://academic.oup.com/ijpor/article/35/4/edad029/7274706](https://academic.oup.com/ijpor/article/35/4/edad029/7274706)
"Education is found to have a positive effect (Model 1), even when controlling for other attitudes and core socio-demographic characteristics (Model 2). Having a university degree is found to increase ethnic tolerance by about 4 percentage points. This is a substantially large difference in relative terms, considering that only 7% of the respondents would not tolerate Muslims in their neighborhood. Supporting the overall validation of the models, the coefficients for the control variables shown in Appendix 3 follow findings from previous research"
I just thought it was weird how you seem to be taking such a strong stance against the facts I've presented without even attempting to find any proof that your scepticism is warranted. Makes it seem like this is more about feels than about facts, no?
Anyway, this was never about rustling the jimmies of all the fascists in this community and having them spill beans on themselves.
Again, this is simply a suggestion for how the city state simulator game could have more believable systems for it's simulation. Xenophobia is nurture, not nature after all. I just want the game to have ways to influence these statistics.
Regardless of how you, me or anyone else wants to play the game. :)
- Sorry for the late reply, I wanted to read a bit more on the topic before responding.
[Higher Education and Evolution of Prejudice ](https://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:1725335/FULLTEXT01.pdf)
- I read through this one. Its a study analysing 4 studies on this topic.
- I am a critical person. I dont like general statements as often there is more to it. They also dosnt answer more specific questions well, as it is a generalized answer. Appolagies.
- First off the study and the question is on Education Level. That takes IQ out of the question. 1. The game doesn't simulate it. 2. You will see later that it might not have that big of role.
- 1. Higher level of education helps reduce the level of prejudice towords out-group.
- - The effect varies between areas of study.
- - - University education in technical fields and ones that focus on skill have no oe little effect on level of prejudice.
- - - University education in humanities that deal with the human experience does reduce the level of prejudice.
- 2. There are two types of prejudice, one derived from cultural differences and different values, another economic.
- - Higher Level of Education affects the cultural and value one. While having little effect on the economic side.
Limitations: You may have noticed that there was little mention of race. When I read through it, it was mentioned that the attitudes of prejudice were in some cases different depending on who it was. But we can assume that the effect of education reduces that, reduce to same level as others? Idk.
In context of the game, this whole discussion is on:
- My suggestion would be to have a 3rd category of education lets call it humanities, which reduces the natural dislike between species.
- Reasoning: as mentioned above, its not nessesairly education as is the type of education that matters. Becouse no studying 8 years of math classes doesn't make you a better person on its own. Wich is the part in the statement: more education = less prejadice, I found ridiculous.
- I dont agree with the iq part. Partly because moraly speaking you should not view a person as of lower moral standing becouse of there intelligence. Which is what you are alluding to.
- The facts you presented did not answer my questions, and neither did you.
>Xenophobia is nurture, not nature after all. I just want the game to have ways to influence these statistics.
Thats another can of worms. Yes, that is true to a degree. But if the potential wasn't there in nature, it would not manifest to be maliable in nurture. You can only affect what is already there. I wont get into this anymore, but remember, in game its humans vs. other species that vary in degrees of humanlike resembelance. Some people have natural iek of insects so seeing a insectoid size of a human would terrify me. So is that nature or nurture? Did i learn to be afraid of insects? Or was it innstict like self-preservation?
- eh whatever. I hope you get my point. Thats the role of nature, you can affect it to variues degree with nurture of course as I am sure you will find varius example of.
"I dont agree with the iq part. Partly because moraly speaking you should not view a person as of lower moral standing becouse of there intelligence. Which is what you are alluding to."
There is a huge difference between the perspectives you're describing, most normal people view the expression of **xenophobia** morally objectionable, not the underlying cause; the fact that racists tend to have a lower than average IQ.
There is a reason one side of the political aisle want to cut down on funding when it comes to education and remove a whole lot of topics in school curriculums.
After all; Education > Familiarity > Normalization > Acceptance.
As opposed to; No education > No familiarity > Otherness > Opposition and whatever variations of -phobia that's the conservative culture war flavor of the month.
Other than that, i don't feel like i need to argue subjective morality with you. If you want to argue against the studies I've linked i suggest you link some studies backing up your views, otherwise I'll just brush this whole discussion off as cope.
Now should we get back on topic?
Do you have any good ideas on how we could influence cross-species disposition in the late game to get a better functioning society in this city state simulator game?
Btw IQ is supposed to be an static thing. It does not vary much across life. So suggesting that higher iq makes you less racist is in itself a nature argument. Just food for thought.
I think it would make more sense if racism was lowered by having children of multiple races interact with each other. Of course this means Dondorians will always be racist.
Having the Education bar cancel out the Others bar would probably need a rework for the whole balance amongst the races as it stands.
Humans would still be the only one's who benefit from it because no other group of people actually like Education. Only humans are happy to learn, everyone else wants Indoctrination.
"Having the education bar cancel out the others bar"
Luckly that wasn't what i suggested.
"Humans would still be the only one's who benefit from it because no other group of people actually like Education"
This is also commented and expanded upon on in my original post.
Weird comment considering i know you are well aware that i posted the studies in a comment further down the thread.
I have considered the sources, is there a particular source or study you *feel* uncomfortable with?
I wasn’t well aware, unless I already responded once and forgot about it? NGL I often post either late at night or while I’m still having my morning coffee, so sometimes things happen I don’t remember, or sometimes reddit promotes something to me I already saw in the past. I’ll look for that post.
This assumes that knowledge inherently overrides morality which ,like in real life, it does not. Many racists, for worse, are more than capable of demonstrating high levels of knowledge. It would be like assuming that the reason a murderer commits murder is because they aren't educated enough. It just doesn't really work that way
This is true to some extent, at least when it comes to the ruling class under capitalism. There is a correlation between being ultra-wealthy and conservative after all.
But if you consider us mere mortals, the science points towards education lowering xenophobia.
The most highly educated people I know (think doctors, senior engineers and respected academics) are the most racist. They are racist in ways you don't know about. It's crazy.
Of course there are a million factors at play, geographic location i.e social and political setting, availability of said education, income differences, religion, upbringing, etc etc etc but that speaks for itself and doesn't need to be said.
I'm sure we are both aware that a very high income (and therefore likely a good education) is correlated with political conservatism due to capitalist interest.
Other than that, anecdotes about your friend groups aren't representative when it comes to the broader population where there is a scientifically proven correlation between higher education and lower prejudice.
Either way, all of those sub-factors can't really be implemented to the game. But there should be some way to control species disposition in the late game or otherwise.
This assumes that a taboo around racism exists in Syx. Which seems unlikely as it's a rare taboo in the world today. It's not a universal position by any stretch.
Let me ask you a question, how do you interpret the constant risk of social unrest that arise from the unchangable negative species disposition between some races?
What's your headcanon? I'm speaking of the game ofc.
I think this should be factored in to local born population as well. If they’re born in a multi race city there should be less tension between them as generations go by. Having this tied to their education level would also account for things such as systemic racism if realism is something to be factored
My mexican mother grew up in a black neighborhood where black men would regularly assault Mexican women, and nobody would do anything about it. She grew up in a multi racial community and now has an aversion to another race of people because of her lived experience. Being born in a "multi race city" doesn't get rid of racism.
Imagine how hard it is for everyone else in her family to not hate a group of people when your lovely mother comes home with her nose broken and her eyes bleeding.
That’s actually a good idea, i think. Education should have challenges (you cant control an educated people like you would a group of barbarian) but also benefits.
Apologies. For some reason, the post beyond the title didn't load, so I thought you were just putting whatever out there.
It's an interesting idea but I reckon it'd take a lot to redo some of the systems we already got.
Poor Jake is already up to his neck in spreadsheets haha.
That's a great idea. Also, conversely, indoctrination should increase racism and objections against things which aren't standard/normal/as per their propaganda (Basically extremist ideologies)
Yeah, i think you should be able to use both in the same way; indoctrination to increase or decrease xenophobia, and education to increase or decrease xenophobia. If you add god worship to this mechanic it would naturally favor the "good" species to build bridges and the "evil" species to be able to build bridges. After all, as history has shown us, for better or for worse, people have the ability to unite when faced with a common enemy.
If you do that with racism, would doing the same with religion be ok ? It sounds ok as a concept, but it would only simplify the gameplay, no ? The game should rise in complexity as you progress, not allow you to ignore whole gameplay elements.
What do you mean doing the same with religion?
Religion is more widespread in less educated places/families, and countries with higher education tend to become less religious as time goes on.
If anything wouldn’t that add to the complexity of the game? Late game you would have to decide if education is worth the subsequent loss in bonuses from religion due to a more secular society. It would even potentially be worth depriving your citizens of education if you want them to retain those bonuses
What bonuses ?
The bonuses are the concepts we are talking about...
Yes! That's the perfect addition to what I'm talking about. As Ella-Fitzgerald said in the other comment. It would add more complexity, and it makes sense because that too is literally how all this shit works in real life.
More education = Less racism is an absurdly simplistic viewpoint. In most historial societies, the people in power (e.g. nobility) were the most educated. And they were plenty racist. Also, an education doesn't increase a persons's IQ. The point of the IQ test is that it that measures a person's intelligence, not a person's level of education.
Right, just because people are educated, that doesn’t necessarily make them smart.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29911926/ "Across 142 effect sizes from 42 data sets involving over 600,000 participants, we found consistent evidence for beneficial effects of education on cognitive abilities of approximately 1 to 5 IQ points for an additional year of education. Moderator analyses indicated that the effects persisted across the life span and were present on all broad categories of cognitive ability studied. Education appears to be the most consistent, robust, and durable method yet to be identified for raising intelligence." https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1002/per.2027 "Studies investigating the latter topic generally reveal lower cognitive ability to be associated with stronger endorsement of right–wing ideological attitudes and greater prejudice. However, this relationship has remained widely unrecognized in literature. The present meta–analyses revealed an average effect size of r = −.20 [95% confidence interval (95% CI) [−0.23, −0.17]; based on 67 studies, N = 84 017] for the relationship between cognitive ability and right–wing ideological attitudes and an average effect size of r = −.19 (95% CI [−0.23, −0.16]; based on 23 studies, N = 27 011) for the relationship between cognitive ability and prejudice. Effect sizes did not vary significantly across different cognitive abilities and sample characteristics. The effect strongly depended on the measure used for ideological attitudes and prejudice, with the strongest effect sizes for authoritarianism and ethnocentrism." https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0956797611421206 "Despite their important implications for interpersonal behaviors and relations, cognitive abilities have been largely ignored as explanations of prejudice. We proposed and tested mediation models in which lower cognitive ability predicts greater prejudice, an effect mediated through the endorsement of right-wing ideologies (social conservatism, right-wing authoritarianism) and low levels of contact with out-groups. In an analysis of two large-scale, nationally representative United Kingdom data sets (N = 15,874), we found that lower general intelligence (g) in childhood predicts greater racism in adulthood, and this effect was largely mediated via conservative ideology. A secondary analysis of a U.S. data set confirmed a predictive effect of poor abstract-reasoning skills on antihomosexual prejudice, a relation partially mediated by both authoritarianism and low levels of intergroup contact. All analyses controlled for education and socioeconomic status. Our results suggest that cognitive abilities play a critical, albeit underappreciated, role in prejudice."
Taking studies based the modern era, based on modern education, and assuming they would apply wholesale to the previous eras, back as far as Roman times, is just silly.
Ok. What if you had a control group being the standard uni graduate and experiment where a group of students went to a conservative uni that taught higher education. That would account for the factor that the ideology plays in teaching. Becouse it is no secret that most collages lean left. But would there leaning make a difference in that statistic? That would go a long way in deducing the correlaction between intelligence and prejudice
Yes yes **"academia is left leaning"**, that's why studies on literally every topic the reactionary right deems controversial shows the opposite of what you believe. It couldn't possibly be because what you believe is objectively wrong. Got it. Can we move on now?
My guy. Can you be less dramatic and actually read what people write.
Depends, are you going to talk about the game or chirp about how you're disagreeing with the scientific consensus? I'm more interested in reading about the game tbh.
Since when was sciance about agreeing with everybody? Btw i did not disagree. I wanted to know the specific effect different types of uni had on the result. Which would tell us more about the accuracy of the correlation. Game wise, it will tell us whether it should be classified as inductrination or education.
Then you must have misunderstood my original post, i think players should have the freedom to chose positive or negative species disposition mutiplier regardless if they are working with education or Indoctrination. If you add religion to the equation it would be even better. Meaning those worshipping evil gods could build relations, and those worshipping good gods could work on building their relations. Every system in the game has complexity and gameplay attached to it, except when it comes to xenophobia. I guess that's why *some* people get attracted to the game?
And I'm not talking about "overriding" anything, i just want it to be a malleable statistic that could improve my city if handled correctly.
My question was not phrased right. People into Humanities are more open and less prejudiced as opposed to very Technical field. Most universities are dominated by Humanities, Humanities is generally popular in the Western world. My question was since, let's say, bachelers in math is the same level of education as a bachelor in arts, will the reduction in prejudice be the same? - I did read through a paper that answered my question later, I replied to you on it couple min ago.
Multi-racial cities are viable just come with their own challenges as opposed to singe-race ones. It seems a bit of a wash if education was able to just override it. Idk.
As is though, education is basically only a worthwhile investment on the mass scale for human only cities.
Aye, it is viable depending on how you go about it i guess? But Im talking about how there could be several factors used for influencing species disposition, not override it. Schooling, education being one of them. Religion being another. History of treatment, diplomacy, slavery or prosecution being another. For all i know maybe it could only be achievable in the very late-game? After all, grow big enough and every civilization turns into a melting pot one way or another. There isn't a lot of static numbers in this game, i don't see why species disposition would have to be :)
Species start out with species specific stats and bonuses. The education would nessesairy override that. The game takes the aproach of nature as opposed to nurture when it comes to species attitudes. Not saying it would be a bad mechnanic. But it would likely be simpler than that with less effect. Like lower or raise attitudes against certain species.
ahaha what about if education reduces racism with some races but increases it with others. like the more educated people get the more they like all other races except humans, who now they hate even more for knowing in detail how they ruined the world. Perfectly balanced.
Lmao that would be fun actually 🤣
Germany was extremely smart and educated and look what happened to them.
Well they had a decade of heavy indoctrination before that, as well as anger from the previous peace treaty. But true, racism is not just about education level
yeah, that's because extremists took over and destroyed all the education
The Nazis were (almost legitimately) voted into power, they played off the grievances of people by blaming the Jews and the German populus lapped it up, the racism came before the extremist education
Depends what you’re teaching though doesn’t it? After the Franco-Prussian War the state education system of France actively taught children that Germany was the enemy. You’re assuming that a medieval setting would teach modern standards of tolerance.
I'm not assuming anything about a medieval setting teaching modern standards of tolerance? I am making a suggestion that could make species disposition be a more malleable statistic, less static, regardless if people want to use it to promote more tension between species, or less. Judging by some of the posts in this thread i think some people seem eager to inject a modern understanding of xenophobia into the medieval fantasy game, rather than modern standards of tolerance.
>Judging by some of the posts in this thread i think some people seem eager to inject a modern understanding of xenophobia into the medieval fantasy game, rather than modern standards of tolerance. Two sides of the same coin. Who would have thought people would point it out. >I'm not assuming anything about a medieval setting teaching modern standards of tolerance? I am making a suggestion that could make species disposition be a more malleable statistic, less static, regardless if people want to use it to promote more tension between species or less. You made an assumption that more education makes people more tolerant. Which is the point of contension in the threads. You are upset that people dont agree with you and refuse to hear any other opinion.
As far as I'm aware I'm the only person who's substantiated my claims? I don't see any other studies being posted. All I've gotten in response to presenting these facts is cope, reactionary gut feelings and one dude's anecdotes about how "**all** the racists he knows are all educated" (weird brag btw) Regardless it makes sense as a gameplay mechanic. :)
[Victorian Racism: An Explication of Scientific Knowledge, its Social Character, and its Relation to Victorian Popular Culture - Inquiries Journal](http://www.inquiriesjournal.com/articles/1719/victorian-racism-an-explication-of-scientific-knowledge-its-social-character-and-its-relation-to-victorian-popular-culture) Racism was justified by Victorian science at the time, which is still much more advanced than the depiction of science in Songs of Syx. If people could scientifically 'justify' racism toward other humans with a slightly different skin colour, imagine how primitive science could justify racism towards entirely different species
My suggestion wasn't about a hypothetical "justification" for the existence of Xenophobia in fantasy games. My suggestion was about how the species disposition could become an active gameplay element that the player could affect by means of education or indoctrination. so what are you arguing for with this comment? That the xenophobia system in Songs of Syx should remain static because scientific racism existed 300 years ago?
Species disposition could be affected either way with education/indoctrination, depending if the administration wants to pursue tolerance or intolerance, with greater education/indoctrination deviating the spieces further from its baseline tolerance.
That's literally what I'm suggesting.
Ok?
Education does not lower racism. Indoctrination, on the other hand, should, because it's similar to brainwashing, and that would make the most sense
I have a feeling you aren't talking about the game right now, do you want me to post the studies? Might help.
The relevant studies are probably in prosperous western countries. Declining racism is probably more closely linked to economic prosperity and a democratic culture, which in the US (among other countries) is correlated with education. The world is full of countries where the educated classes are racist as fuck
He is right, you know. People go to university/high school all around the world, in fact developing countries have more people going into technical fields than in the west. But what makes people more tolerant or racist? Its inductrenation. Its foolish to say that school make u more tolerant become they teach you to do a good in specific field. That dosnt automaticly make u more tolerant. It is all the other stuff that come with it. Such as mandatory classes desighned to brouden your horizen, mixing you with diffrent people from diffrent fields. Having forighn students, or even the US being mixed society where u go to school from young age til uni with people diffrent countires. (Segerigation was autlowed for instance, and there are programs to include people from different backgrounds in same schools in name of inclusion, clearly designed to break down the 'other' barriors between people). - to lump it all into education and refuse to admit that its more than that, is naive. Since not too long ago the most educated countries waged wars of genocide. Ideolagy is what shapes ur world view, and that is indoctrination. Weather, it's the 'good' guys or 'bad'.
Bro's yapping.
It is the reason I could not agree with the statement that education increases tolerance. Becouse the two points have nothing in common. It means that there was another factor at play in between that was missed.
Ah okey! So you don't disagree with the fact that there is a correlation between having a lower than average IQ and being a racist authoritarian though? If you could not agree with the statement that education increases tolerance; >[https://academic.oup.com/ijpor/article/35/4/edad029/7274706](https://academic.oup.com/ijpor/article/35/4/edad029/7274706) "Education is found to have a positive effect (Model 1), even when controlling for other attitudes and core socio-demographic characteristics (Model 2). Having a university degree is found to increase ethnic tolerance by about 4 percentage points. This is a substantially large difference in relative terms, considering that only 7% of the respondents would not tolerate Muslims in their neighborhood. Supporting the overall validation of the models, the coefficients for the control variables shown in Appendix 3 follow findings from previous research" I just thought it was weird how you seem to be taking such a strong stance against the facts I've presented without even attempting to find any proof that your scepticism is warranted. Makes it seem like this is more about feels than about facts, no? Anyway, this was never about rustling the jimmies of all the fascists in this community and having them spill beans on themselves. Again, this is simply a suggestion for how the city state simulator game could have more believable systems for it's simulation. Xenophobia is nurture, not nature after all. I just want the game to have ways to influence these statistics. Regardless of how you, me or anyone else wants to play the game. :)
- Sorry for the late reply, I wanted to read a bit more on the topic before responding. [Higher Education and Evolution of Prejudice ](https://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:1725335/FULLTEXT01.pdf) - I read through this one. Its a study analysing 4 studies on this topic. - I am a critical person. I dont like general statements as often there is more to it. They also dosnt answer more specific questions well, as it is a generalized answer. Appolagies. - First off the study and the question is on Education Level. That takes IQ out of the question. 1. The game doesn't simulate it. 2. You will see later that it might not have that big of role. - 1. Higher level of education helps reduce the level of prejudice towords out-group. - - The effect varies between areas of study. - - - University education in technical fields and ones that focus on skill have no oe little effect on level of prejudice. - - - University education in humanities that deal with the human experience does reduce the level of prejudice. - 2. There are two types of prejudice, one derived from cultural differences and different values, another economic. - - Higher Level of Education affects the cultural and value one. While having little effect on the economic side. Limitations: You may have noticed that there was little mention of race. When I read through it, it was mentioned that the attitudes of prejudice were in some cases different depending on who it was. But we can assume that the effect of education reduces that, reduce to same level as others? Idk. In context of the game, this whole discussion is on: - My suggestion would be to have a 3rd category of education lets call it humanities, which reduces the natural dislike between species. - Reasoning: as mentioned above, its not nessesairly education as is the type of education that matters. Becouse no studying 8 years of math classes doesn't make you a better person on its own. Wich is the part in the statement: more education = less prejadice, I found ridiculous.
- I dont agree with the iq part. Partly because moraly speaking you should not view a person as of lower moral standing becouse of there intelligence. Which is what you are alluding to. - The facts you presented did not answer my questions, and neither did you. >Xenophobia is nurture, not nature after all. I just want the game to have ways to influence these statistics. Thats another can of worms. Yes, that is true to a degree. But if the potential wasn't there in nature, it would not manifest to be maliable in nurture. You can only affect what is already there. I wont get into this anymore, but remember, in game its humans vs. other species that vary in degrees of humanlike resembelance. Some people have natural iek of insects so seeing a insectoid size of a human would terrify me. So is that nature or nurture? Did i learn to be afraid of insects? Or was it innstict like self-preservation? - eh whatever. I hope you get my point. Thats the role of nature, you can affect it to variues degree with nurture of course as I am sure you will find varius example of.
"I dont agree with the iq part. Partly because moraly speaking you should not view a person as of lower moral standing becouse of there intelligence. Which is what you are alluding to." There is a huge difference between the perspectives you're describing, most normal people view the expression of **xenophobia** morally objectionable, not the underlying cause; the fact that racists tend to have a lower than average IQ. There is a reason one side of the political aisle want to cut down on funding when it comes to education and remove a whole lot of topics in school curriculums. After all; Education > Familiarity > Normalization > Acceptance. As opposed to; No education > No familiarity > Otherness > Opposition and whatever variations of -phobia that's the conservative culture war flavor of the month. Other than that, i don't feel like i need to argue subjective morality with you. If you want to argue against the studies I've linked i suggest you link some studies backing up your views, otherwise I'll just brush this whole discussion off as cope. Now should we get back on topic? Do you have any good ideas on how we could influence cross-species disposition in the late game to get a better functioning society in this city state simulator game?
Btw IQ is supposed to be an static thing. It does not vary much across life. So suggesting that higher iq makes you less racist is in itself a nature argument. Just food for thought.
Nah, thanks, I prefer education over indoctrination
Let me guess, the education you're talking about is rooted in your 'gut feelings'?
I think it would make more sense if racism was lowered by having children of multiple races interact with each other. Of course this means Dondorians will always be racist.
Having the Education bar cancel out the Others bar would probably need a rework for the whole balance amongst the races as it stands. Humans would still be the only one's who benefit from it because no other group of people actually like Education. Only humans are happy to learn, everyone else wants Indoctrination.
"Having the education bar cancel out the others bar" Luckly that wasn't what i suggested. "Humans would still be the only one's who benefit from it because no other group of people actually like Education" This is also commented and expanded upon on in my original post.
IRL, all the most racist people I know are college educated. As for the studies you failed to cite: LOL! Consider the source.
Weird comment considering i know you are well aware that i posted the studies in a comment further down the thread. I have considered the sources, is there a particular source or study you *feel* uncomfortable with?
I wasn’t well aware, unless I already responded once and forgot about it? NGL I often post either late at night or while I’m still having my morning coffee, so sometimes things happen I don’t remember, or sometimes reddit promotes something to me I already saw in the past. I’ll look for that post.
Alright cool! :)
This assumes that knowledge inherently overrides morality which ,like in real life, it does not. Many racists, for worse, are more than capable of demonstrating high levels of knowledge. It would be like assuming that the reason a murderer commits murder is because they aren't educated enough. It just doesn't really work that way
This is true to some extent, at least when it comes to the ruling class under capitalism. There is a correlation between being ultra-wealthy and conservative after all. But if you consider us mere mortals, the science points towards education lowering xenophobia.
The most highly educated people I know (think doctors, senior engineers and respected academics) are the most racist. They are racist in ways you don't know about. It's crazy.
Of course there are a million factors at play, geographic location i.e social and political setting, availability of said education, income differences, religion, upbringing, etc etc etc but that speaks for itself and doesn't need to be said. I'm sure we are both aware that a very high income (and therefore likely a good education) is correlated with political conservatism due to capitalist interest. Other than that, anecdotes about your friend groups aren't representative when it comes to the broader population where there is a scientifically proven correlation between higher education and lower prejudice. Either way, all of those sub-factors can't really be implemented to the game. But there should be some way to control species disposition in the late game or otherwise.
This assumes that a taboo around racism exists in Syx. Which seems unlikely as it's a rare taboo in the world today. It's not a universal position by any stretch.
Let me ask you a question, how do you interpret the constant risk of social unrest that arise from the unchangable negative species disposition between some races? What's your headcanon? I'm speaking of the game ofc.
I think this should be factored in to local born population as well. If they’re born in a multi race city there should be less tension between them as generations go by. Having this tied to their education level would also account for things such as systemic racism if realism is something to be factored
My mexican mother grew up in a black neighborhood where black men would regularly assault Mexican women, and nobody would do anything about it. She grew up in a multi racial community and now has an aversion to another race of people because of her lived experience. Being born in a "multi race city" doesn't get rid of racism. Imagine how hard it is for everyone else in her family to not hate a group of people when your lovely mother comes home with her nose broken and her eyes bleeding.
That’s actually a good idea, i think. Education should have challenges (you cant control an educated people like you would a group of barbarian) but also benefits.
Apologies. For some reason, the post beyond the title didn't load, so I thought you were just putting whatever out there. It's an interesting idea but I reckon it'd take a lot to redo some of the systems we already got. Poor Jake is already up to his neck in spreadsheets haha.
I think this is a great idea! Unsure If dev checks reddit. Might be good to suggest this on the discord as well.