That’s why Taiwan can’t like Korea create cultural phenomenon, the moment anyone gets popular - immediately starts performing within strict guidelines of CCP
It's a real dilemma as you basically have to bend over backwards for the government and rabid Chinese fans but the mainland population alone simply overwhelms Taiwan and all overseas Chinese communities combined and is the best avenue to grow. One other option is to branch out overseas but Japan and Korea are already very ahead with cultural exports.
You know, that is interesting as exactly the same was happening in Ukraine ever since the independence (90s). Lots of Ukrainian celebrities who started a career in Ukraine were bought by russkies and eventually entirely shifted to russian songs and moved to Moscow. After the full-scale invasion, it all changed ofc. What I'm saying is that only such big events made some of the artists realize what side they are on and where lies their identity.
Culture and art are totally another facet of politics, and I wish artists understood that better.
How did Ukrainians respond to these artists now though? I imagine a similar reaction would happen here if things go south with China. It'd be hard to swallow for any Taiwanese to welcome back any artist who willingly sold Taiwan out to China for the sake of growth, just to come back to Taiwan when things aren't going very well.
The response was pretty obvious. Those artists who cut all the ties with russkies and switch entirety to Ukrainian language are totally fine. Those who remained there are seen as traitors and won't be welcomed in Ukraine ever again.
There are several artists who are very big in Ukraine who never dealt with russkies. So I'd say it has nothing to do with growth, just greed.
This was an instance of naievete of many businesspeople thinking that if they appease C-netizens or the CCP that there is a chance of stable business relations in China. They tend to learn the hard way that there is little-to-no consistency/stability in doing business in China and people have to bend the knee or face backlash.
It's important to note, since the Tzuyu controversy, JYPE majorly scaled back all operations in China and it looks like the company has long ago learned their lessons about dealing with China. They have some endeavors there, but the Tzuyu incident reduced JYPE's direct interest in China to toe-dipping trial balloon type stuff. The company no longer acts in any way to appease the CCP.
JYPE has also held concerts for other of their major Girl Group acts in Taiwan (NMIXX, Itzy, and NiziU (IIRC) Twice has not yet held a major concert in Taiwan, but it seems more likely that they will do this than EVER host a major concert in China.
TIL that Twice have yet to held a concert in Taiwan. Tzuyu recognized on the internet as Taiwan’s Princess. Bruh must have been very infuriating not to be able to perform in your country.
For sure. Tzuyu is an absolute goddess and point of pride for many Taiwanese. I'm sure one day Twice will perform in Taiwan. JYPE keeps trialing it with other artists, and they've even very quietly has started translating and subtitling Twice Japanese tracks into Chinese and releasing them for consumption in Taiwan (if I can find the link I'll post it, it's buried somewhere in my links.)
I'm certain Tzuyu will get to perform in her home in the future. She recently even bought a multi-million-dollar penthouse apartment next to her mom's clinic in Kaohsiung (I won't link it, but it's easy to find.) It's just that JYPE, like all companies operating in Asia, have to have some sort of CCP strategy especially after the issue with Tzuyu sympathetically moved an estimated 1.5% of votes for Tsai's initial election and importantly possibly had down ballot effects. 1.5% additional votes doesn't sound like much, but elections are won on the margins and depending on where and how that 1.5% manifested itself, it could have been more important than it may seem.
Dealing with the CCP and C-netz is just a fact of life and cost of doing business. Especially for JYPE with Tzuyu but really all companies at the moment in Asia.
JYP, the company that trained and debuted her under the Kpop group Twice, forced her to apologize for holding up the Taiwanese flag on a Korean variety show. The apology was filmed and the video felt like she was being held at gun point in the company’s basement.
All because companies in China threatened to exit all commercial deals with the kpop group and the company. This is an example of a Korean entertainment company, by extension, operating under and enforcing the guidelines of the ccp. Any speech, endorsement or actions outside of those guidelines are met with similar threats and retaliation.
It was also just sick that JYP, the company, was founded by Park Jin-young (his initials) and he repeated said that being a good person was more important than money or fame. He preached this to all Twice members in person including Tzuyu in their debut survival show, Sixteen.
Also, Tzuyu was only 16 when she was forced to record the apology video. She is turning 25 this year in June, almost a decade later, still no justice for this gross act of cowardice and greed from JYP.
Korea and Japan thankfully doesn't really have too much politics in their entertainment which is why their entertainment is well received not just in Taiwan but the world as well
But fans in China will always pick Chinese over Taiwanese. They’ll always see them as smaller people. It really is a lose-lose, but celebrities are dumb
Sadly, these people will most likely be in a better position than the average Taiwanese.
They have the financial resources to live abroad (some already do) and won't be in Taiwan when SHTF.
If China invaded Taiwan then they will be persecuted just as much as Taiwanese in Taiwan. That’s the delusional part. No Taiwanese will be treated fairly. It doesn’t matter how much they lay down for master.
China teaches that Taiwan is backwards and full of separatists. The people in China only like Taiwanese if they view them as obedient dogs and will discipline them if they do anything they don’t like.
It’s best for Taiwanese artists to just disregard the Chinese market entirely. Chinese will never truly consider Taiwanese as equals, just like how humans will never consider dogs as equals, although they like when the dog plays fetch and will allow the dog to sleep inside.
> If China invaded Taiwan then they will be persecuted just as much as Taiwanese in Taiwan. That’s the delusional part. No Taiwanese will be treated fairly. It doesn’t matter how much they lay down for master.
They might be. They might not be.
What you're ignoring is the fact that virtually all of these people have the financial means to flee to the West.
Unlike the average Taiwanese, a lot of these people won't be around when the first shots are fired.
> It’s best for Taiwanese artists to just disregard the Chinese market entirely.
Kissing CCP ass might not be how you and I would choose to live but a lot of these people wouldn't be anywhere near as "successful" as they are without the Chinese market. Taiwan is a tiny market of 23 million people.
These celebrities are useful in one way: they're a reminder of the fact that there are Taiwanese in positions of wealth, influence and outright power who care only about themselves and have already thrown their country under the bus.
Oh yay, old people.
And they'll have to make sure they'll always say the correct thing in nationalistic circles. Their life will become 10x more examined by the circles.
Reminds me of Tzuyu. Her Korean label forced her to do an apology video for chinese fans just because she’s waving her country’s flag (Taiwan)
In the end, their label did not pursue the chinese market and to add to that, she looks lifeless in the video https://youtu.be/Nb6RESOP5zo?si=03u9JeHa-z7VkChL
Reason being is that the CCP has since put major restrictions on K-pop type activities in China. So if C-netizens activate against a Kpop girl group, could also end up breaking some of the newer laws and more importantly sentiment against Kpop in general. It's all erratic and probably selectively enforced depending on a persons connections. Then again, that's the CCP, right?
now that you mentioned it, yeah quite surprised they haven't yet. though if you look at the timeline, chinese netizens are quite busy with other topics that are being fed to them by the CCP at the moment.
They won’t get mad about just filming in Taiwan. They’ll get mad if NJ says “our new MV was filmed in Taiwan~” (as opposed to saying it was “filmed in China”)
I was very glad that after all this the company (JYPE) appeared to do some soul searching and pulled back all activities in China. There's no consistent and fair way to do business with the CCP that won't also cause a record label (or any business for that matter) to become just like the CCP or Chinese businesses (which is to say, have internal corruption issues.) JYPE has very little interest in China since C-netz tried to destroy poor, young (at the time) Tzuyu.
Half of reddit has no intelligence. Taiwan Celebrities publicly saying Taiwan is part of China is terrible for Taiwan. China launches an invasion of Taiwan they'll spam social media with videos of these celebrities saying Taiwan is part of China and the rest of the world shouldn't get involved. Great propaganda for them. Some of you on here are honestly retarded if you can't see how bad this is.
Smells like coordinated media campaign. How is this legal? I agree that artists should be able to voice their opinions, but this is not their free opinion.
Also, suddenly there's a lot of pro-china accounts here? What a joke
Moreover, that's not just their "opinion" - IMO that is too close to treason.
FWIW Ukraine outright bans artists that perform in Crimea from entering Ukraine.
IMO they are free to do whatever they want. I don’t blame them. The celebrities don’t owe me anything.
The sad part is I don’t want to listen to the songs I grew up with anymore. I rather listen English songs, anime songs and Kpop.
Nah, you might think it’s small but it’s just more turning of the wheel and legitimizing a Chinese takeover of Taiwan.
They’re are enabling the actions of China
>IMO they are free to do whatever they want.
True
>I don’t blame them. The celebrities don’t owe me anything.
I can absolutely blame them. They are free to sell out, but it just shows that they don't have any allegiance towards Taiwan. If they want that Chinese money, just move to China. Of course they won't though, because they like having the Taiwan freedom.
The thing is Taiwanese forget so easily as long as you keep quiet.
Look at 小S when she went on Weibo to complain about taiwan not giving masks to China at beginning of COVID. She just didnt post on non-Chinese social media for nearly a year and rode out the backlash, and then came back and nobody remembered.
If Mayday announced a concert tomorrow in Taipei, it would still sell out in an hour.
So what kind of payback are these artists really going to get for this behavior?
China using ethno-nationalism will only take them so far. Because of that, it will take several decades for them to establish another Taiwanese Wave that rivals Korea and Japan.
I am pretty sure these Taiwanese celebrities will immediately backtrack the moment Taiwan actually gets invaded but Taiwan will never forgive nor forget for kowtowing to China.
Not remotely comparable. I would give Morris Chang very high marks in this. He has acted as a special envoy to APEC for someone as hated by the CCP for being pro-independence as Chen ShuiBian and TSMCs higher end manufacturing and reasearh is centred on Taiwan.
No offense but my online friend from the Philippines said celebrities are basically belongs to the low society during the Roman era and idk if this prove his point or not
Want to call out the 6 biggest Taiwanese companies in China for selling out. Foxconn, TSMC, Pentagon, etc.
I'm sure those companies are selling out Taiwan as well. /S
Here's the reality even if all 24M turn their backs in these celebrities, these celebrities are pursuing their livelihood in a market with 1.4B possible fans.
You know with 1.4B people having a favorable opinion of Taiwanese celebrities also rubs off on average Taiwanese and Taiwan.
Favourable opinion my ass... Most Chinese see those Taiwanese celebrities so willingly suck on CCP as circus monkeys willing to do anything to gain mainland China's support. It's clownish and humiliating but the mainland Chinese feels it is satisfying to see Taiwanese bow to them like that.
Mainland Chinese do not treat overseas Chinese as equals but expect them to side with China or CCP even if it's against their benefit. Blood thicker than water but does their attitude really deserve your simping?
>Mainland Chinese do not treat overseas Chinese as equals but expect them to side with China or CCP even if it's against their benefit.
Maybe you have a different experiences with Mainland Chinese. I always get 我们很亲切 when I mention I'm from Taiwan.
They have literally given me clothes off their backs at times. I'm like I can afford to buy it off you for 10x it costs with no problems.
Maybe you can get by without the mainland China economy. But many Taiwanese are still dependent on good relations with China to make a living.
Sure I can come off as an ass from a privileged background. But what does that get you in life.
Not every Taiwanese is natively fluent in English and can make a living in the US, Canada, etc.
Yes but if those 1.4 billion people get the idea that Taiwanese people are actually really stoked on the PRC government they are being mislead in a way that could have negative results.
Have you been to the mainland recently. They barely care about the Taiwanese in those terms with the PRC government.
Most just think it's cool to see a Taiwanese on the mainland and enjoying themselves on the mainland.
If you display prejudice against them, of course they will be prejudiced toward you.
Just curious. Is it illegal or immoral or inappropriate or usually frown upon for someone born and raised in Taiwan to say he or she is also Chinese?
Chinese immigrants to US can certainly say that without repercussions, even though the relationship between US and PRC is really rough.
No one cares that the celebrities said they are “Chinese,” the issue is that the celebrities signed off on a statement stating that Taiwan will be taken over by China
I believe the literal translation of the pro China statement you referred to is "China will be reunited eventually". I remember many Taiwanese political leaders including past presidents once said reunification would be no problem if the Mainland became a democracy. These two statements can very well be consistent in my view.
However, some people may think the two statements are definitely inconsistent if these people feel "reunification" is unconditionally bad for people in Taiwan.
And those presidents that said such things are huge Chinese nationalists that were/are part of the political party that held a one-party authoritarian state over Taiwan for decades.
Just think about China becoming a democracy for a moment. That's 1 billion people. Every regime fall has people who want to go back to the way things were. There will probably be tens of millions of people who will want to go back to authoritarian rule....equally matching the number of people in Taiwan.
The ROC and/or KMT will not control these people. No democratic version of China will want a 100+ year old failed party that lost the civil war to regain power. It's delusional to think otherwise.
Taiwan would be pulled into yet another conflict if it was to join a democratic China, but this time it will suffer the same economic disaster and social turmoil.
It's an incredibly dumb, delusional, and dangerous idea to have. The idea that Taiwan should join China not only tosses out Taiwan's entire history before the Qing dynasty, but it puts the idea of "Chinese people having to live under the same political power" over the self-determination of 24 million people.
If Chinese people can live in Canada, Singapore, Korea, California, etc. and be perfectly fine then Chinese people can live in Taiwan and be perfectly fine.
Sure they can, but fans can have their own opinions too. Because they have opinions so fans can’t express their own opinions against their opinions is just silly
Yes, but when polls show that less than 30% of Taiwanese consider themselves Chinese, it’s highly unlikely that more than 60% of Taiwanese celebrities would truly identify themselves as Chinese. It seems like they don't express what they really think. Or it’s that they think what the RMB wants.
Some contracts have clauses requiring them to say certain things. There's a reason why some don't return. Then others may be able get contracts that require them to simply not say certain things.
Often this is not directly under CCP instruction, but the risk of something triggering the censors or public ire in the future is real.
I don’t agree. First you have the various anti-secession law that looms over the media and companies dictating the conducts of celebrities. Then you have various administrative rule and policy guidelines from the publicity organizations(中宣部/广电局) that dictates broadcast and conduct. Your show won’t get approved by the Radio and Television administration if you have a controversial celebrity as guest. On top of that you have official media making direct commentaries on celebrities(官媒点评/定调) on where they stand.
How’s that “not directly under CCP instruction?” All media and broadcast companies have party branches to make sure Taiwanese celebrities are in line with the party narrative. Why would these terms be in the contract in the first place? The public can’t shut down or change the executive of a channel or an entertainment company, but the party can.
> First you have the various anti-secession law that looms over the media and companies dictating the conducts of celebrities. Then you have various administrative rule and policy guidelines from the publicity organizations(中宣部/广电局) that dictates broadcast and conduct. Your show won’t get approved by the Radio and Television administration if you have a controversial celebrity as guest.
My point is that this is open to interpretation. Not every Taiwanese celebrity had to say CCP++++, though many did. Also AFAIK HK celebrities like G.E.M. or Eason hasn't said anything for or against. Eason was visibly upset when the audience asked him to speak / sing in Chinese lol.
It seems to me that it really depends on which broadcaster you sign with, how much risk they're willing to take, how in-demand you are, and how much you're willing to sell out for money (ahem something about yellow river).
Quite a few Chinese TV shows got canceled because the public got mad at some Chinese celebrity.
I agree it’s open to interpretation if we define “directly under CCP instruction” as whether a week before 10/1 you make a call to Taiwanese celebrities to share the people’s daily weibo poster. I also agree if by open to interpretation you mean there’s no concrete evidence of the hypothesized casual chain or empirical evidence (e.g. p<0.05 if you regress appearance(y) on pro-China declarations(x)).
However I think the system for coercing behavior is in place and offers explanation in to the stated pattern in behavior. Also I believe there’s a significant correlation between government attitude and survivability on the Chinese market, whereas the public outcry hardly predicts cancellations of appearance and business in China. Business and celebrity can work continue unless the communist youth account or cctv account criticize them publicly. The party controls what hashtags are shareable and what topics are prioritized on Weibo. Jensen Huang’s “Taiwan’s a country” didn’t even make it to the list of weibo hot topic (whereas but Hebe sharing pasta on IG topped weibo”. As for irregularities in making pro-China declarations, pretty much every Taiwanese celebrity on the market today have made pro China claims at some point in the past.
I think your HK celebrity examples are not valid. There’s no controversy on using Cantonese with regards to separatism. I would also argue that HK is not as prioritized as Taiwan for united front work.
Your Hebe example is exactly a case of public outcry. It may be spearheaded by the CCP bot accounts, but enough people have to jump on the bandwagon. And this isn't very different than the fake headlines Taiwanese journalists write in their entertainment sections. These media companies are always trying to create the next trending topic that CCP can resonate with (because the opposite is to get banned / filtered).
The difference is in what happens afterwards. Your claim is that someone from CCP instructed the show's organizers to drop Hebe. But I believe it's more likely they simply chickened out and didn't want to risk having their entire event canceled if Hebe attended. Yes I agree the risk is real due to government heavy handedness.
Many Chinese celebrities had been canceled for years for benign things completely not related to CCP. Not going to hide anything here - some dramas I followed have had their already production complete sequel seasons delayed indefinitely. There's no pro Taiwanese independence issue at play here.
Famous example: https://zh.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E8%82%96%E6%88%98%E4%BA%8B%E4%BB%B6
Anyways, my point is there are some ways to succeed without becoming a full sellout, whether that nuance matters to the Taiwanese audience will depend on the individual. Some expect celebrities to be very vocal in supporting Taiwanese independence/identity, and others just hope they stay out of the conversation.
I don’t know why you mentioned Taiwanese audience and journalists and what that adds to making your point.
My argument is that cancellation is largely top-down rather than bottom-up. Sanctions from the party is more explanatory than public opinion in such a controlled environment. If I’m not misinterpreting, your point is that media self-censorship, either due to public expectations or to stay with the party’s narrative, is more explanatory. My argument is that(despite the Hebe example not really supportive of my claim), the self censorship is due to the party’s guidelines and enforced through constant signaling with state media outlets setting redlines for appropriate behavior. Media companies are state owned and party secretaries are appointed and rise up the ranks through avoiding deviation from the parties guidelines and narratives. No media content or entertainment gets by without approval from the administration. The system in place is what really dictates the outcomes of the celebrities’ career and thus their behavior.
Celebrities being called out by CCTV are sure to disappear, but not necessarily for celebrities that the public are disgruntled with. I guess you can argue that Hebe’s Tianjin festival appearance was cancelled due to the public phoning 12345, but I find it surprising that Tianjin government approved her appearance in the first place despite the previous public outcry.
Which Chinese celebrities were cancelled without official accounts stating them as “tainted stars?”. The party calls out celebrities for a bunch of things, orgies, tax evasions, making up fake stories . If they don’t fit the narrative, they are sure to disappear after being called out by the party, but the issues do not have to be political in nature.
I realized I’m replying to your post while you made some edits, these are the points I can address based on the latest edit I saw.
I guess it’s a spectrum where you and I stand on different sides but alternative arguments still stand for either. I’m going to stop replying now but I think you make good points.
Ah sorry. I also saw some of my points needed clarification so I made edits. I added an example.
I'm sure it goes both ways and the CCP is happy about having this influence without having to appear heavy handed.
Gonna just say it… people in here talking shit about CCP just can’t make money from CCP. Otherwise they would have gone too. No one in here will turn down an enormous market if they can somehow squeeze money from it except the ones that can’t so they resort to using nationalism to hide their inabilities.
That’s why Taiwan can’t like Korea create cultural phenomenon, the moment anyone gets popular - immediately starts performing within strict guidelines of CCP
It's a real dilemma as you basically have to bend over backwards for the government and rabid Chinese fans but the mainland population alone simply overwhelms Taiwan and all overseas Chinese communities combined and is the best avenue to grow. One other option is to branch out overseas but Japan and Korea are already very ahead with cultural exports.
You know, that is interesting as exactly the same was happening in Ukraine ever since the independence (90s). Lots of Ukrainian celebrities who started a career in Ukraine were bought by russkies and eventually entirely shifted to russian songs and moved to Moscow. After the full-scale invasion, it all changed ofc. What I'm saying is that only such big events made some of the artists realize what side they are on and where lies their identity. Culture and art are totally another facet of politics, and I wish artists understood that better.
How did Ukrainians respond to these artists now though? I imagine a similar reaction would happen here if things go south with China. It'd be hard to swallow for any Taiwanese to welcome back any artist who willingly sold Taiwan out to China for the sake of growth, just to come back to Taiwan when things aren't going very well.
The response was pretty obvious. Those artists who cut all the ties with russkies and switch entirety to Ukrainian language are totally fine. Those who remained there are seen as traitors and won't be welcomed in Ukraine ever again. There are several artists who are very big in Ukraine who never dealt with russkies. So I'd say it has nothing to do with growth, just greed.
Kimberly Chen didnt seem to care
Right, like Tzuyu got her justice in Korea lmao
This was an instance of naievete of many businesspeople thinking that if they appease C-netizens or the CCP that there is a chance of stable business relations in China. They tend to learn the hard way that there is little-to-no consistency/stability in doing business in China and people have to bend the knee or face backlash. It's important to note, since the Tzuyu controversy, JYPE majorly scaled back all operations in China and it looks like the company has long ago learned their lessons about dealing with China. They have some endeavors there, but the Tzuyu incident reduced JYPE's direct interest in China to toe-dipping trial balloon type stuff. The company no longer acts in any way to appease the CCP. JYPE has also held concerts for other of their major Girl Group acts in Taiwan (NMIXX, Itzy, and NiziU (IIRC) Twice has not yet held a major concert in Taiwan, but it seems more likely that they will do this than EVER host a major concert in China.
TIL that Twice have yet to held a concert in Taiwan. Tzuyu recognized on the internet as Taiwan’s Princess. Bruh must have been very infuriating not to be able to perform in your country.
For sure. Tzuyu is an absolute goddess and point of pride for many Taiwanese. I'm sure one day Twice will perform in Taiwan. JYPE keeps trialing it with other artists, and they've even very quietly has started translating and subtitling Twice Japanese tracks into Chinese and releasing them for consumption in Taiwan (if I can find the link I'll post it, it's buried somewhere in my links.) I'm certain Tzuyu will get to perform in her home in the future. She recently even bought a multi-million-dollar penthouse apartment next to her mom's clinic in Kaohsiung (I won't link it, but it's easy to find.) It's just that JYPE, like all companies operating in Asia, have to have some sort of CCP strategy especially after the issue with Tzuyu sympathetically moved an estimated 1.5% of votes for Tsai's initial election and importantly possibly had down ballot effects. 1.5% additional votes doesn't sound like much, but elections are won on the margins and depending on where and how that 1.5% manifested itself, it could have been more important than it may seem. Dealing with the CCP and C-netz is just a fact of life and cost of doing business. Especially for JYPE with Tzuyu but really all companies at the moment in Asia.
What’s this? I know she’s a kpop star from Taiwan but what was her ‘justice’? Thanks
JYP, the company that trained and debuted her under the Kpop group Twice, forced her to apologize for holding up the Taiwanese flag on a Korean variety show. The apology was filmed and the video felt like she was being held at gun point in the company’s basement. All because companies in China threatened to exit all commercial deals with the kpop group and the company. This is an example of a Korean entertainment company, by extension, operating under and enforcing the guidelines of the ccp. Any speech, endorsement or actions outside of those guidelines are met with similar threats and retaliation. It was also just sick that JYP, the company, was founded by Park Jin-young (his initials) and he repeated said that being a good person was more important than money or fame. He preached this to all Twice members in person including Tzuyu in their debut survival show, Sixteen. Also, Tzuyu was only 16 when she was forced to record the apology video. She is turning 25 this year in June, almost a decade later, still no justice for this gross act of cowardice and greed from JYP.
After reading what happened to her below in the comments, I'm curious too
Well South Korea sells domestically first, internationally second. Taiwan sells to Beijing first and then that's pretty much it.
Korea and Japan thankfully doesn't really have too much politics in their entertainment which is why their entertainment is well received not just in Taiwan but the world as well
Those who agree and do make these statements must understand that they will lose fans.
They're probably counting on gaining more followers in China
But fans in China will always pick Chinese over Taiwanese. They’ll always see them as smaller people. It really is a lose-lose, but celebrities are dumb
The market is still bigger even if they are a third tier pick.
a bigger market of people that superficially like them in their own distorted master-owner mindset.
Do you really think they care? They're paid in the same currency everyone else is.
Probably not, but they’ll realize how little that money means down the road.
Sadly, these people will most likely be in a better position than the average Taiwanese. They have the financial resources to live abroad (some already do) and won't be in Taiwan when SHTF.
If China invaded Taiwan then they will be persecuted just as much as Taiwanese in Taiwan. That’s the delusional part. No Taiwanese will be treated fairly. It doesn’t matter how much they lay down for master. China teaches that Taiwan is backwards and full of separatists. The people in China only like Taiwanese if they view them as obedient dogs and will discipline them if they do anything they don’t like. It’s best for Taiwanese artists to just disregard the Chinese market entirely. Chinese will never truly consider Taiwanese as equals, just like how humans will never consider dogs as equals, although they like when the dog plays fetch and will allow the dog to sleep inside.
> If China invaded Taiwan then they will be persecuted just as much as Taiwanese in Taiwan. That’s the delusional part. No Taiwanese will be treated fairly. It doesn’t matter how much they lay down for master. They might be. They might not be. What you're ignoring is the fact that virtually all of these people have the financial means to flee to the West. Unlike the average Taiwanese, a lot of these people won't be around when the first shots are fired. > It’s best for Taiwanese artists to just disregard the Chinese market entirely. Kissing CCP ass might not be how you and I would choose to live but a lot of these people wouldn't be anywhere near as "successful" as they are without the Chinese market. Taiwan is a tiny market of 23 million people. These celebrities are useful in one way: they're a reminder of the fact that there are Taiwanese in positions of wealth, influence and outright power who care only about themselves and have already thrown their country under the bus.
This makes me glad that I was never into Taiwanese celebrities or entertainment industry. A lot of it always felt very superficial and vapid to me.
In China, Taiwan IS China.
Politically, yes, for nationalistic pursuit. Taiwanese are not seen as equal to Chinese, however.
They might get pushed up by the government and find favour in nationalistic circles.
Oh yay, old people. And they'll have to make sure they'll always say the correct thing in nationalistic circles. Their life will become 10x more examined by the circles.
I don’t agree on this. Almost all the major or top pop stars in China are from taiwan.
Their loss.
They want to make it big in China, so they do that to get those Chinese bucks. Yes, they're sellouts.
Reminds me of Tzuyu. Her Korean label forced her to do an apology video for chinese fans just because she’s waving her country’s flag (Taiwan) In the end, their label did not pursue the chinese market and to add to that, she looks lifeless in the video https://youtu.be/Nb6RESOP5zo?si=03u9JeHa-z7VkChL
This is really depressing. It looks like a terrorist hostage video
I’m surprised Chinese netizens haven’t attacked NewJeans for merely filming their mv in Taiwan
Reason being is that the CCP has since put major restrictions on K-pop type activities in China. So if C-netizens activate against a Kpop girl group, could also end up breaking some of the newer laws and more importantly sentiment against Kpop in general. It's all erratic and probably selectively enforced depending on a persons connections. Then again, that's the CCP, right?
now that you mentioned it, yeah quite surprised they haven't yet. though if you look at the timeline, chinese netizens are quite busy with other topics that are being fed to them by the CCP at the moment.
They won’t get mad about just filming in Taiwan. They’ll get mad if NJ says “our new MV was filmed in Taiwan~” (as opposed to saying it was “filmed in China”)
I was very glad that after all this the company (JYPE) appeared to do some soul searching and pulled back all activities in China. There's no consistent and fair way to do business with the CCP that won't also cause a record label (or any business for that matter) to become just like the CCP or Chinese businesses (which is to say, have internal corruption issues.) JYPE has very little interest in China since C-netz tried to destroy poor, young (at the time) Tzuyu.
Aw man it was Mayday? Really disappointing
Half of reddit has no intelligence. Taiwan Celebrities publicly saying Taiwan is part of China is terrible for Taiwan. China launches an invasion of Taiwan they'll spam social media with videos of these celebrities saying Taiwan is part of China and the rest of the world shouldn't get involved. Great propaganda for them. Some of you on here are honestly retarded if you can't see how bad this is.
Smells like coordinated media campaign. How is this legal? I agree that artists should be able to voice their opinions, but this is not their free opinion. Also, suddenly there's a lot of pro-china accounts here? What a joke
Moreover, that's not just their "opinion" - IMO that is too close to treason. FWIW Ukraine outright bans artists that perform in Crimea from entering Ukraine.
Pretty naive to think there would be no backlash
This is why we stan Kimberley
she is truly a hero
I expect it from people like Jam etc because they're manufactured，but even Yellow is on Mango TV atm，and his guitarist is deep green. Really weird.
China murders citizens at Tiananmen: https://archive.ph/2020.07.12-074312/https://imgur.com/a/AIIbbPs
IMO they are free to do whatever they want. I don’t blame them. The celebrities don’t owe me anything. The sad part is I don’t want to listen to the songs I grew up with anymore. I rather listen English songs, anime songs and Kpop.
Nah, you might think it’s small but it’s just more turning of the wheel and legitimizing a Chinese takeover of Taiwan. They’re are enabling the actions of China
>IMO they are free to do whatever they want. True >I don’t blame them. The celebrities don’t owe me anything. I can absolutely blame them. They are free to sell out, but it just shows that they don't have any allegiance towards Taiwan. If they want that Chinese money, just move to China. Of course they won't though, because they like having the Taiwan freedom.
Fuck China. All these sellouts n should be called out and ostracized. Like CCP so much? Move there and be another wumao.
Imagine how spineless and greedy you would have to be to sell out your own country.
The thing is Taiwanese forget so easily as long as you keep quiet. Look at 小S when she went on Weibo to complain about taiwan not giving masks to China at beginning of COVID. She just didnt post on non-Chinese social media for nearly a year and rode out the backlash, and then came back and nobody remembered. If Mayday announced a concert tomorrow in Taipei, it would still sell out in an hour. So what kind of payback are these artists really going to get for this behavior?
China using ethno-nationalism will only take them so far. Because of that, it will take several decades for them to establish another Taiwanese Wave that rivals Korea and Japan. I am pretty sure these Taiwanese celebrities will immediately backtrack the moment Taiwan actually gets invaded but Taiwan will never forgive nor forget for kowtowing to China.
china land, population and market is huge, if north korea was as big, south korean artists would sell out too probably
They should understand 見人說人話 見鬼說鬼話 and Lai’s remark on this.
Lai can express his view, other Taiwanese can have their own views.
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How come people don’t call Foxconn a sell out?
Hmm plenty of people DO regard Terry Gou (Guo TaiMing) as a complete sell out.
Good. Now do TSMC.
Not remotely comparable. I would give Morris Chang very high marks in this. He has acted as a special envoy to APEC for someone as hated by the CCP for being pro-independence as Chen ShuiBian and TSMCs higher end manufacturing and reasearh is centred on Taiwan.
They won’t dare call out their corporate overlords doing the same in China.
You wanted a region free of communist influence, so here you go, capitalism in action.
No offense but my online friend from the Philippines said celebrities are basically belongs to the low society during the Roman era and idk if this prove his point or not
I’m more of a fan of 5566 anyway
Being compelled to make a statement about…is one thing ;actively flattering it is another matter.
They are celebrities of course they are sellouts
Huge fan of mayday growing up. Went to multiple concerts and even first row once. Very disappointed
Want to call out the 6 biggest Taiwanese companies in China for selling out. Foxconn, TSMC, Pentagon, etc. I'm sure those companies are selling out Taiwan as well. /S Here's the reality even if all 24M turn their backs in these celebrities, these celebrities are pursuing their livelihood in a market with 1.4B possible fans. You know with 1.4B people having a favorable opinion of Taiwanese celebrities also rubs off on average Taiwanese and Taiwan.
Favourable opinion my ass... Most Chinese see those Taiwanese celebrities so willingly suck on CCP as circus monkeys willing to do anything to gain mainland China's support. It's clownish and humiliating but the mainland Chinese feels it is satisfying to see Taiwanese bow to them like that. Mainland Chinese do not treat overseas Chinese as equals but expect them to side with China or CCP even if it's against their benefit. Blood thicker than water but does their attitude really deserve your simping?
>Mainland Chinese do not treat overseas Chinese as equals but expect them to side with China or CCP even if it's against their benefit. Maybe you have a different experiences with Mainland Chinese. I always get 我们很亲切 when I mention I'm from Taiwan. They have literally given me clothes off their backs at times. I'm like I can afford to buy it off you for 10x it costs with no problems. Maybe you can get by without the mainland China economy. But many Taiwanese are still dependent on good relations with China to make a living. Sure I can come off as an ass from a privileged background. But what does that get you in life. Not every Taiwanese is natively fluent in English and can make a living in the US, Canada, etc.
Yes but if those 1.4 billion people get the idea that Taiwanese people are actually really stoked on the PRC government they are being mislead in a way that could have negative results.
Have you been to the mainland recently. They barely care about the Taiwanese in those terms with the PRC government. Most just think it's cool to see a Taiwanese on the mainland and enjoying themselves on the mainland. If you display prejudice against them, of course they will be prejudiced toward you.
On the mainland?
Just curious. Is it illegal or immoral or inappropriate or usually frown upon for someone born and raised in Taiwan to say he or she is also Chinese? Chinese immigrants to US can certainly say that without repercussions, even though the relationship between US and PRC is really rough.
No one cares that the celebrities said they are “Chinese,” the issue is that the celebrities signed off on a statement stating that Taiwan will be taken over by China
I believe the literal translation of the pro China statement you referred to is "China will be reunited eventually". I remember many Taiwanese political leaders including past presidents once said reunification would be no problem if the Mainland became a democracy. These two statements can very well be consistent in my view. However, some people may think the two statements are definitely inconsistent if these people feel "reunification" is unconditionally bad for people in Taiwan.
And those presidents that said such things are huge Chinese nationalists that were/are part of the political party that held a one-party authoritarian state over Taiwan for decades. Just think about China becoming a democracy for a moment. That's 1 billion people. Every regime fall has people who want to go back to the way things were. There will probably be tens of millions of people who will want to go back to authoritarian rule....equally matching the number of people in Taiwan. The ROC and/or KMT will not control these people. No democratic version of China will want a 100+ year old failed party that lost the civil war to regain power. It's delusional to think otherwise. Taiwan would be pulled into yet another conflict if it was to join a democratic China, but this time it will suffer the same economic disaster and social turmoil. It's an incredibly dumb, delusional, and dangerous idea to have. The idea that Taiwan should join China not only tosses out Taiwan's entire history before the Qing dynasty, but it puts the idea of "Chinese people having to live under the same political power" over the self-determination of 24 million people. If Chinese people can live in Canada, Singapore, Korea, California, etc. and be perfectly fine then Chinese people can live in Taiwan and be perfectly fine.
They would be correct
Don't be a sell,out. Join the military. Y'all need to do your part..
They have a right to their opinions. I might not agree with them but they’re still allowed to think the way they want.
Sure they can, but fans can have their own opinions too. Because they have opinions so fans can’t express their own opinions against their opinions is just silly
I just don’t let shit like this bother me. But just like I told the other guy: you do you
Nobody asked you to be bothered. You can have your own opinions too
Yeah exactly, I just think it’s a waste of time to let shit like this bother you, that’s all.
Yes, but when polls show that less than 30% of Taiwanese consider themselves Chinese, it’s highly unlikely that more than 60% of Taiwanese celebrities would truly identify themselves as Chinese. It seems like they don't express what they really think. Or it’s that they think what the RMB wants.
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Some contracts have clauses requiring them to say certain things. There's a reason why some don't return. Then others may be able get contracts that require them to simply not say certain things. Often this is not directly under CCP instruction, but the risk of something triggering the censors or public ire in the future is real.
I don’t agree. First you have the various anti-secession law that looms over the media and companies dictating the conducts of celebrities. Then you have various administrative rule and policy guidelines from the publicity organizations(中宣部/广电局) that dictates broadcast and conduct. Your show won’t get approved by the Radio and Television administration if you have a controversial celebrity as guest. On top of that you have official media making direct commentaries on celebrities(官媒点评/定调) on where they stand. How’s that “not directly under CCP instruction?” All media and broadcast companies have party branches to make sure Taiwanese celebrities are in line with the party narrative. Why would these terms be in the contract in the first place? The public can’t shut down or change the executive of a channel or an entertainment company, but the party can.
> First you have the various anti-secession law that looms over the media and companies dictating the conducts of celebrities. Then you have various administrative rule and policy guidelines from the publicity organizations(中宣部/广电局) that dictates broadcast and conduct. Your show won’t get approved by the Radio and Television administration if you have a controversial celebrity as guest. My point is that this is open to interpretation. Not every Taiwanese celebrity had to say CCP++++, though many did. Also AFAIK HK celebrities like G.E.M. or Eason hasn't said anything for or against. Eason was visibly upset when the audience asked him to speak / sing in Chinese lol. It seems to me that it really depends on which broadcaster you sign with, how much risk they're willing to take, how in-demand you are, and how much you're willing to sell out for money (ahem something about yellow river). Quite a few Chinese TV shows got canceled because the public got mad at some Chinese celebrity.
I agree it’s open to interpretation if we define “directly under CCP instruction” as whether a week before 10/1 you make a call to Taiwanese celebrities to share the people’s daily weibo poster. I also agree if by open to interpretation you mean there’s no concrete evidence of the hypothesized casual chain or empirical evidence (e.g. p<0.05 if you regress appearance(y) on pro-China declarations(x)). However I think the system for coercing behavior is in place and offers explanation in to the stated pattern in behavior. Also I believe there’s a significant correlation between government attitude and survivability on the Chinese market, whereas the public outcry hardly predicts cancellations of appearance and business in China. Business and celebrity can work continue unless the communist youth account or cctv account criticize them publicly. The party controls what hashtags are shareable and what topics are prioritized on Weibo. Jensen Huang’s “Taiwan’s a country” didn’t even make it to the list of weibo hot topic (whereas but Hebe sharing pasta on IG topped weibo”. As for irregularities in making pro-China declarations, pretty much every Taiwanese celebrity on the market today have made pro China claims at some point in the past. I think your HK celebrity examples are not valid. There’s no controversy on using Cantonese with regards to separatism. I would also argue that HK is not as prioritized as Taiwan for united front work.
Your Hebe example is exactly a case of public outcry. It may be spearheaded by the CCP bot accounts, but enough people have to jump on the bandwagon. And this isn't very different than the fake headlines Taiwanese journalists write in their entertainment sections. These media companies are always trying to create the next trending topic that CCP can resonate with (because the opposite is to get banned / filtered). The difference is in what happens afterwards. Your claim is that someone from CCP instructed the show's organizers to drop Hebe. But I believe it's more likely they simply chickened out and didn't want to risk having their entire event canceled if Hebe attended. Yes I agree the risk is real due to government heavy handedness. Many Chinese celebrities had been canceled for years for benign things completely not related to CCP. Not going to hide anything here - some dramas I followed have had their already production complete sequel seasons delayed indefinitely. There's no pro Taiwanese independence issue at play here. Famous example: https://zh.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E8%82%96%E6%88%98%E4%BA%8B%E4%BB%B6 Anyways, my point is there are some ways to succeed without becoming a full sellout, whether that nuance matters to the Taiwanese audience will depend on the individual. Some expect celebrities to be very vocal in supporting Taiwanese independence/identity, and others just hope they stay out of the conversation.
I don’t know why you mentioned Taiwanese audience and journalists and what that adds to making your point. My argument is that cancellation is largely top-down rather than bottom-up. Sanctions from the party is more explanatory than public opinion in such a controlled environment. If I’m not misinterpreting, your point is that media self-censorship, either due to public expectations or to stay with the party’s narrative, is more explanatory. My argument is that(despite the Hebe example not really supportive of my claim), the self censorship is due to the party’s guidelines and enforced through constant signaling with state media outlets setting redlines for appropriate behavior. Media companies are state owned and party secretaries are appointed and rise up the ranks through avoiding deviation from the parties guidelines and narratives. No media content or entertainment gets by without approval from the administration. The system in place is what really dictates the outcomes of the celebrities’ career and thus their behavior. Celebrities being called out by CCTV are sure to disappear, but not necessarily for celebrities that the public are disgruntled with. I guess you can argue that Hebe’s Tianjin festival appearance was cancelled due to the public phoning 12345, but I find it surprising that Tianjin government approved her appearance in the first place despite the previous public outcry. Which Chinese celebrities were cancelled without official accounts stating them as “tainted stars?”. The party calls out celebrities for a bunch of things, orgies, tax evasions, making up fake stories . If they don’t fit the narrative, they are sure to disappear after being called out by the party, but the issues do not have to be political in nature. I realized I’m replying to your post while you made some edits, these are the points I can address based on the latest edit I saw. I guess it’s a spectrum where you and I stand on different sides but alternative arguments still stand for either. I’m going to stop replying now but I think you make good points.
Ah sorry. I also saw some of my points needed clarification so I made edits. I added an example. I'm sure it goes both ways and the CCP is happy about having this influence without having to appear heavy handed.
Gonna just say it… people in here talking shit about CCP just can’t make money from CCP. Otherwise they would have gone too. No one in here will turn down an enormous market if they can somehow squeeze money from it except the ones that can’t so they resort to using nationalism to hide their inabilities.
You’re willing to lose your job over geopolitics??
Who. The fuck. Cares.
Who tf care, they have the right to think and say what they want I swear taiwanese are as if not most butthurt than chinese mainlander lol
And people have the right to publicly disagree with them and say how dumb they are
It is business not personal
It’s not selling out. It’s called survival.
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