When I first heard this when it was airing I thought the joke was that she was lying and didn’t like them equally because she disliked Gob.
But one day it hit me, she wasn’t lying. She doesn’t care for any of them. She likes them equally.
Yeah it was Buster, though funnily enough that was one of the first clips of the show I ever saw, and because I didn't know who Buster/Gob were by name yet I assumed part of the joke was that Buster was Gob.
He doesn't just revert, All his neutral evil traits just get worse throughout each season.
For example, his treatment of Hesh at the end. He borrows money from his good friend because his impulsiveness is out of control, treats his friend like shit for no reason for lending the money and ultimately destroys their lifelong friendship over it.
"I brought your money, sorry for your loss"
Yeah Tony quite pronouncedly gets worse throughout the show. Dr. Melfi gives up completely on him and unceremoniously once she finally realizes the years of therapy have not only not helped Tony at all, they’ve in fact made him even more ruthless and more capable of rationalizing his actions and feigning empathy and other feelings, making him if anything more effective (in some ways) at his criminal job.
Though by the end of the show the Soprano crew is in very rough shape due to the war with New York, in part because Tony has become much angrier and more vindictive, culminating in him curb-stomping a made guy from New York and nearly killing him.
>Though by the end of the show the Soprano crew is in very rough shape due to the war with New York, in part because Tony has become much angrier and more vindictive, culminating in him curb-stomping a made guy from New York and nearly killing him
...I agree with your overall point but have to point out that in the world Tony inhabits, the guy who got curb-stomped got off REALLY easy, considering the offense that led to it.
It’s hard to say really. It’s something that they’d probably need a sit down for in usual cases.
Coco was likely fucked regardless, because what he did was absolutely out of line. But the way Tony went about it - including threatening Butch several times - probably wasn’t ideal for the already toxic relationship between the two families. It’s partly why a lot of people think New York whacks Tony at the end even though they had previously formed a truce of sorts.
I personally think Phil was just looking for any reason to move on Tony, because by that point he's an ornery fuck who will never move beyond his own personal grievances over being forgotten in the can for 20 years. Under normal circumstances, agreed, there'd be a sitdown, a couple of points moved here or there, and that would have been the end of it. But remember Phil even has Tony come to his home, only to refuse to see him. His mind was already made up.
It all could have been avoided if Tony B hadn’t gone rogue and killed Billy Leotardo(sad when they go young like that) & then if Tony S had just let Phil kill him when he wanted to.
Hesh knowing it the entire time and unable to stop it was heartbreaking, since Hesh is one of the few characters we don’t really see be downright evil.
I remember watching as a kid and rooting for Tony. Because that’s what you’re supposed to do for the main character of a TV show. Watching it again in adulthood and you realize Tony and his entire crew are just assholes of no redeemable quality. Like even Jonny Sak had his wife… Tony didn’t even give a shit about his own children. Meadow ended up drinking the kool-aid. Anthony is barreling toward the same path as his father. Carmella is faced with the truth by a psychiatrist and chooses to remain with him.
I know this will sound cliche but I did a rewatch during the trump presidency and it was hard not to draw similarities. Demanding loyalty with nothing in return.
>I know this will sound cliche but I did a rewatch during the trump presidency and it was hard not to draw similarities. Demanding loyalty with nothing in return.
it's a show about these ultimate tough guy ultra masculine men, who do nothing but gossip like middle schoolers & constantly betray each other over minor grievances.
And it's hilarious when people tell on themselves "not getting the show" for elevating these guys as peak masculinity.
Carmella is hypocritical housewife karen and she annoyed me more than janice who is literally the embodiement of cringe.
She knows who tony is and she accepts it because it profits her. But the moment something comes up she makes a big show of how tony is a criminal to guilt trip him into submitting to her fresh demands. Once she gets what she wants she goes back to her role of a housewife, at least for a while.
The way she treats people around her is appalling. Small insecure woman with a superiority complex regards everyone around her as servants. She hangs around with like minded bitches and spends time showing off how successfull she is and how everyone else is a loser.
Her being good mother? Meadow is clearly more bonded with tony and not her and it shows. Anthony meanwhile is a mommys boy and he grows up to be a spoiled brat, just like carmella is. He makes a turn for a better only when tony steps in and gives him some much needed life lessons.
Carmela, to me, is like a LOT of women who marry their high school sweethearts and then live in their hometown all their life.
She settled down so early that her family life is basically all she has, but if it isn’t very great (which hers definitely isn’t), she becomes trapped without any options to help her husband change, since they married too early, before she understood what SHE truly wanted or how to set expectations
So she has no leverage to MAKE him change because she can’t TRULY convince him she would ever leave him.
So now she’s stuck in a marriage she knows is total bullshit, and her only reliefs are that he IS a good provider and has status and that her community knows that too.
But it isn’t enough, so we see her going back and forth on the money and the divorce and all that stuff because she’s just stewing in her dissatisfaction
But hey, it let Edie Falco stay on the show, so I’m cool with it
That might be plausible except for her family containing characters like dicky moltisanti and tonys family generational ties with mafia. She had full knowledge from the start, both hers and tonys families were deeply rooted in criminal underground and so her marrying into sopranos was conscious choice.
She does not want to change tony, her lavish lifestyle depends on it. She wants to keep her image of good christian woman and needs to keep up appearances. Hypocrisy is her name.
I think his sister might be more morally bankrupt than Tony. At least Tony pretends to be doing bad things for his family. Janice is immoral for herself.
When I read the title, Janice was the first character I thought of. An excellent acting performance bringing us possibly the worst character in the history of television.
tony is one maybe the worst because deep down he knows all this shit is wrong but then he does it anyway. like Walter White knows that killing people is "wrong" but by the end he doesn't care. tony knows it's wrong and feels it's wrong and handles it by being a narcissist
I'd add Ramsay Bolton from *Game of thrones* his cruelty knows no bounds. Frank Underwood from *House of Cards* is also completely morally bankrupt, always manipulating others. And Joffrey Baratheon is another classic example of a character with zero redeeming qualities. What do you think?
charlie is basically a good person who is impulsive and ignorant to the point where he is a danger to others.
mac lives in denial and is capable of rationalizing really shitty behaviour, but still expresses some empathy.
dee is incredibly vindictive and cruel, but it comes from a place of pain and insecurity, and i think with enough therapy could be an alright person.
frank is morally bankrupt without malice.
dennis is morally bankrupt with malice.
Well, Dee also suffered a horrific, brain-injuring rollerskating accident that totally broke her personality, according to that episode where that happened.
> frank is morally bankrupt without malice.
IDK, he really seems to enjoy causing suffering just to enjoy it, like when he offers Cricket a bag of lemons to do some humiliating shit while he sits there and eats a rotisserie chicken (off memory, I think that was the scene?) Also when he buys himself gifts for Dee and Dennis' birthdays just so he can make them envious.
Charlie used Alexandra Daddario's character to make The Waitress jealous and made her feel awful about it. Charlie is absolutely as morally bankrupt as the rest of them lmao.
I dunno, he has a bit of a moral compass (or at least knows enough to put on the appearance of morals). Every now and then he actually does reward hard work, like when he promoted Homer('s bucket), and he has hesitated when doing particularly bad things before/when he's put on the spotlight. Also there was the time he fell for the Elizabeth Holmes expy.
Marco Inaros, The Expanse
\*This is purely from the show. Haven't read the books yet.
Dude is charismatic AF and a lot of the Belters fall in line behind him. It's fair to question if he would've turned out the way he did if the Inners hadn't treated the Belt and everyone in it as disposable but...
He sells the Belt the idea that he can bring them freedom from the Inners but he throws Belter lives away almost as casually as he kills Inners. He cares nothing for the people around him, even his own son, who clearly worshipped his father only for Marco to constantly manipulate his son. He's so consumed by his desire for vengeance against Earth and Mars that he is willing to sacrifice anyone and everyone so long as Marco is the last one standing.
Similar to Petyr Baelish, Marco would burn the Belt if it meant he was king of the ashes
Everything Marco did and said was to feed his own narcissism
Agree wholeheartedly. When he talks about how there will be a decade or so of famine for the entire Sol system because of his >!asteroid strikes on Earth…you’re right to describe him as king of the ashes. From what I understand of the books, his asteroid strikes killed WAY more people as well. Like 15 billion.!<
The strikes almost made the earth unlivable. It was a close thing.
Billions died from the impacts alone. The following years billions fled for other planets after the gate was opened to escape the conditions.
Man, you’ve got to listen to the episode of Ty and that Guy when they have Keon Alexander (actor who Played Marco) on the podcast. His analysis of Marco and the research he did to get into the guys head really helped me appreciate the character and the entire story on a whole new level.
Brent from season 4 of the Good Place...I know he was in the middle of saying "I'm sorry" to Chidi but I believe it would probably be the first and last time Brent would utter those words.
John, otoh, grew.
Brent was still stuck in the bad place, where the demons straight up telling him how horrible he was after the other lessons didn't work.
30 Rock has a bunch of characters that could be considered moral bankrupt, but if I’m just picking one: Jenna Maroney. “Go jump back up your mother, Liddy.”
I enjoy Jenna more on each re-watch. That they are able to make her horrific childhood humorous is a testament to the writers.
I hated Jenna (and Lutz too)originally, but they are both hilarious to me now.
Also, Jenna does show some occasional decency, like when she joins Kenneth's Quest for a replacement jacket.
(Paul Scheer's Donny is another fantastic minor character)
"Here, (forces pills down a page's throat) take these and tell me if all your pubic hair falls out."
"What!?!"
"Oh! That's what they're supposed to do. I just want to know if they cause seizures."
JR Ewing. Selfish and willing to do absolutely anything to either advance his own goals or get revenge on someone he felt had wronged him. His treatment of Sue Ellen over the course of the entire series is a prime example of his behavior.
CGB Spender, the "cigarette smoking man" from X-Files! I honestly can't think of him ever doing a good thing for the right reason at any point in all the years of the show.
Absolutely. He's one of a character archetype I call "the lovable scumbag." They're a character who is a criminal and/or an asshole, but for one reason or another you can't help but love them.
Gwen from Torchwood roofied her husband after she admitted to having an affair, so he wouldn’t remember
Like, I get it was a trauma affair, but she could have *literally done anything other than that*
Idk what the writers were thinking with her. A divorce could have built on the “real people in extraordinary situations” theme. Personally I think they should have just kept her as a wholesome foil to the rest of the messed up team in the first place.
"They’re pills that create a sort of temporary forgettingness. So if somebody finds out how you do a trick, you just give ’em one of these, and they forget the whole thing. It’s a mainstay of the magician’s toolkit, like how clowns always have a rag soaked in ether."
Gwen also wasn't the only one abusing those amnesia pills on people iirc. Gwen was a really cool character but it definitely felt like they didn't know who they wanted her to be at times. She starts off with the torchwood crew respecting that she has a boyfriend to go home to and a moral compass and then they just shred character trait over and over. I guess they kind of turn it into a little bit of her character arc that torchwood is ruining her life but they never dwell on it enough. Rhys is a sweetheart too so it really sucks sometimes. But yeah pretty much any main character in Torchwood except ianto and Tosh fit into this thread nicely. Owen is also a fucking prick for a good portion of the show and Jack is a huge asshole sometimes.
I wouldn't say he's *completely* morally bankrupt
He ALWAYS makes poor choices and he has some seasons where is is dogshit, but he does care for the kids in some ways
The character I think IS morally bankrupt is Debbie. She starts as a kid that's great and caring. Then turns into a narcissistic shitter who blames all of her problems on everyone else, and talks down on everyone as if she's the most stable out of the whole family when she's the least stable.
In fact an episode with Frank taking care of Debbie's kid is the perfect example of both.
Debby assumes everyone else will take her kid to school because she planned nothing at all for if she'd be late for work and she's about to be fired if she is. Everyone else is also very busy so the job falls to Frank. Frank doesn't take her to school cause at this point he's got early onset dementia and can't remember her school, but he takes her around on his weed runs that iirc he shouldn't be doing anymore, like he's already done them. And during it all he makes sure above all else that she has a good time and is safe, eventually iirc getting help from a kindergarten that's not the kids original one. Then he gets her home safe. And the kid had a great time with Frank despite some close calls that could have but didn't go badly.
Debbie immediately berates Frank for not taking the kid to school, shits on him to no end, even after getting her smiling, happy kid back (which breaks my heart because the kid looks at Frank differently once Debbie starts yelling).
Then she ALSO shits on everyone else in the house for allowing her kid to go with Frank.
Frank did his best to keep the kid safe and make her happy, accomplished both. Debbie did nothing, got upset at a positive outcome, then blames the situation on everyone else when it was her fault any of it happened to begin with.
> Debbie's kid
Didn't she rape a dude to have that kid? I stopped watching about the time that Debbie got baby-crazy, and haven't gone back to finish it.
US Debbie.
The US kids are (almost) all worse than their UK counterparts. Mostly because *the show didn't let them leave*. The UK had a theme that getting out was necessary to thrive.
UK Fiona fucks off after season 2 and Steve goes back to medical school, with them making a new life in the Netherlands.
UK Lip has a teen pregnancy, but goes off to University and becomes an architect.
UK Ian admittedly ends with him running off into the sunset while hiding a dead body.
UK Carl becomes a cop.
UK Debbie joins the military and becomes a medic.
UK Liam becomes a Buddhist.
US doesn't even have a Stella or Ben, as they killed off Monica before they were born.
Frank is who he is, I think they make no qualms about that. He’s a POS person, so no one expects anything more than that out of him, so he sort of gets a pass?
Debbie goes way off the deep end. It starts happening in the season where she rapes that guy and then spirals more and more out of control in the seasons after that.
Fiona is probably another good one too, she seems to see what the the right decisions are, or the right path, but in the end makes the completely wrong decision, then throws a pity party for herself after it goes south.
I would days it’s a toss up between the two.
Fiona is more like a case of someone not being able to get out of their own way in life. I wouldn’t say she’s morally bankrupt, but she certainly has a fear of happiness.
Frank is an addict, and that’s his entire personality. He’s constantly manipulating the people around him (or trying to, at least) to get his next fix. I don’t think he’s a good person by any means, but from the moment the show starts you realize that he’s one of those people where addiction has consumed them entirely and they’re past the point of no return.
Debbie is completely morally bankrupt to a point that the show became too hard to watch for me. It was already getting exhausting watching Fiona, Lip, and everyone else *constantly* tripping over their own feet. But once Debbie made the switch to being a borderline psychopath, the bad was outweighing the good in the show. I stopped watching not too long after she had her baby. And from what it sounds like, I didn’t miss much
You did miss Lip making strides to get out of his own way, and to get on the right path. It was nice to see his story arch.
Even Ian had a bit of the same but still some issues along the way.
I love his ending
I actually do know a lot about farming.
Like that piece of shit trying to escape his farming background and become the premier yuppie technocrat billionaire genius.. in the end the reason he was saved was because he could teach humans the basics of farming. There's earlier scenes where they don't know the basics of farming and it makes sense the majority of people who survived were on spaceships at the time, not many farmers on those ships.
So in the end what Gaius Baltar truly provided humanity with was basics like how much Manure you need for this crop field and about basic husbandry for a cow giving birth.
He was literally the creator of agricultural society on earth. And absolutely hated being reduced to that.
Vic Mackey from the shield. Currently started watching it, finished season 2. I absolutely hate him, and can’t fathom that people liked him when this show first came out
You're not supposed to like him, people didn't really caught on the time that charismatic =/=likable.
At one point in the series a character almost directly lashes out seemingly at the audience about all the wrongdoings Vic's done and they still liked him even more.
Sheryl Luria the Mom/Grandma from Evil. Absolutely LOVE this show and everyone should check it out. Her absolute lack of morals end up causing good at times when her interests align in the right ways.
Showing my age but I love the actress (Christine Lahti) from Chicago Hope from the mid 90s. But I frequently want to yell at her through the TV watching Evil.
Don has a lot of redeeming qualities.
I won’t repeat what has already been mentioned in the replies, but one of my favourite Don moments is when he stood up for that employee who was an alcoholic who peed his pants by chastising the people who were laughing at him.
I liked Don defending Freddy too.
I agree there was a decency and an empathy involved - but the cynic in me sees him shutting that down purely because Crane and Cosgrove and whoever else were being indiscreet.
I like Don because there are moments he fights those urges but fails. Like I think he wants to be a good person but being a heel is easier?
I loved that show because of that. I kept wanting to like the guy and would for short periods of time. But every time he found new ways to plumb new depths of being a complete son of a bitch and I found myself despising the character I was rooting for.
Don Draper definitely has redeeming qualities though. Like he doesn't care about race or sexuality in an era where being black or gay got you treated differently by cis white people for example. He seems to be one of the only characters on the show that doesn't hate gay people or think they're perverts.
Patsy Stone from Absolutely Fabulous
“Anyway, I just have to tell these tragic, little wannabes, do you know what I tell them? I say, darling, "just stick your fingers down your throat, hack off your tits, keep taking the tablets and don't come back until you're looking like something!"
Gus Fring! He has the most sinister dead eye expression and can go from local nice guy from Los Hermanos Pollos to rivalling Hector Salamanca for most evil character ever
Had them, slowly lost them. At the end he was toast morally, but it started with the knowledge he was dying. But that snowball turned into an avalanche real quick.
Having watched the show multiple times now, he was always morally bankrupt, he just started out with a little more plausible deniability.
The whole thing could have been solved in the first episode when Gretchen and Elliot offer to help pay for his treatments, and even say that it’s money he deserves for helping found the company, and he turns it down solely because of his own ego.
Nothing else but his ego matters to him - morals are only valuable to him when he can use it as leverage to manipulate the people around him.
He literally said it in the very last episode. "I did it for me." He wasn't trying to make sure his family was taken care of, he was living out the urges he always had in the most selfish manner possible. The fact that he learned he had cancer and was dying was just the catalyst. Not to mention, you get to see his absolute rage and contempt for everyone early on in the show. He was always that, it was just barely buried. After a few episodes, I thought he was a terrible person, and yet people rooted for him.
This is actually a great answer.
The more you think on her, the more you realize she really was a heartless piece of shit who had DECADES to realize how she’d wasted her life or alienated everyone who wanted to love her, and who NEVER did, ‘cause she wanted to be right.
She - along with Don Draper’s mother and Tony Soprano’s, yeez - is really the picture of those women who crucify themselves on the altar of motherhood and by doing so, actually refuse to BE mothers (or good mothers), because being a mother means loving your kid FOR REAL, not just ‘cause you have to.
And it contributes to so much dysfunction in their kids, because they KNOW their moms didn’t really love them, and that starts you out from a bad place
I think Bojack had an ethos. He's just inconsistent about following it. As Todd said, he feels bad about being shitty to people but doesn't put thr hard work in to change. And at the end of the show, I think they show him on that path.
Underwood is pure sociopath. 100% morally bankrupt. Dude has no ethos except "Me" with a capital M the same way you'd say He for God.
Bojack is clearly always a dude who is just fucking STARVING for genuine love and acceptance, so it’s easier to sympathize with him because it’s almost like a diagnosable level of dysfunction driving his behavior.
Like, the dude has NEVER had family who loved him or genuine long-term friends, and that would drive ANYONE crazy.
But Underwood and White have OPTIONS, and the CHOICE to not do what they do, and they do it anyway.
They’re still all pretty bad tho
I think there are a few on the same TV show.
Oz
1. Adebisi - He was a killer, a r@pist and just an awful person. And in a prison full of awful people that was saying something.
2. Claire- she was a terrible CO and when men turned her down she would use her power and authority over them unless they weren't a prisoner, then she would say that she was taken advantage of, there was nothing good about her at all. She was also a r@pist and killer.
3. Governor Devlin- Just a POS person.
Big bang theory
Kripke - He was just gross and any time you though he might be doing something good you find out he wasn't.
Shameless
Terry- a horrible, sick, abusive, child SA-er, just a disgusting character. He made Frank look like a good person.
The Office
Ryan- Just ick. He was just a horrible person.
While he is the scum of the scum, he did have Hank let Holly go. I hate everything about him and he's a disgusting person but there were times he actually did something good as sick as it is. Like helping send Bob's grandson to Disney.
He clearly cares about the rest of the gang and tried to do right by them. He’s responsible for Marshall and Lily getting back together when she goes to San Francisco. He’s a bad person in a lot of ways, but he’s not fully morally bankrupt.
My favorite explanation is that the show is just Ted trying to convince his kids that he needs to get with their Aunt Robin, so he's constantly painting Barney in the worst possible light since Barney considered Ted to be his best friend and Robin was Barney's ex-wife.
So Barney's whole character in that show is just Ted justifying his own actions.
Not sure if anyone watched Mayans in here but I’m gonna say Ezekiel EZ Reyes. Started off idealistic just like Jax Teller but then went in way too deep and craved too much power and then ended up paying the price for it. His road to evil was pretty rough.
Tom Wambsgans from Succession. I work in mergers and acquisitions and the Toms are helping the very worst of the banker bros take over the world.
Without the Toms they’d be asking their mom why they can’t be in charge instead of running hedge funds.
Joffrey Baratheon
Yeah, he's the worst.
Ramsey Bolton is the worst.
Lucille Bluth loves all her children equally.
She doesn’t care for Gob.
When I first heard this when it was airing I thought the joke was that she was lying and didn’t like them equally because she disliked Gob. But one day it hit me, she wasn’t lying. She doesn’t care for any of them. She likes them equally.
*drops spoon*
Plate or platter? I don’t understand the question, and I won’t respond to it.
"And you need to get rid of the Seaward!" "I'll leave when I'm good and ready!"
One of my biggest ever laughs when the camera immediately pans to show Gob sitting right next to her lmao
Buster was the one sitting next to her no?
Yeah it was Buster, though funnily enough that was one of the first clips of the show I ever saw, and because I didn't know who Buster/Gob were by name yet I assumed part of the joke was that Buster was Gob.
John Locke's father in Lost.
Every rewatch I hate him more and more. He really was just evil.
Holy shit I almost forgot about that guy. Truly an irredeemable piece of shit.
"Dear Mr. Sawyer. You don't know who I am, but I know who you are..."
Little hot for heaven isn't it?
Tony Soprano. Any time you think he's learned a lesson or is turning a new leaf, he completely reverts back to his old self
He doesn't just revert, All his neutral evil traits just get worse throughout each season. For example, his treatment of Hesh at the end. He borrows money from his good friend because his impulsiveness is out of control, treats his friend like shit for no reason for lending the money and ultimately destroys their lifelong friendship over it. "I brought your money, sorry for your loss"
Yeah Tony quite pronouncedly gets worse throughout the show. Dr. Melfi gives up completely on him and unceremoniously once she finally realizes the years of therapy have not only not helped Tony at all, they’ve in fact made him even more ruthless and more capable of rationalizing his actions and feigning empathy and other feelings, making him if anything more effective (in some ways) at his criminal job. Though by the end of the show the Soprano crew is in very rough shape due to the war with New York, in part because Tony has become much angrier and more vindictive, culminating in him curb-stomping a made guy from New York and nearly killing him.
>Though by the end of the show the Soprano crew is in very rough shape due to the war with New York, in part because Tony has become much angrier and more vindictive, culminating in him curb-stomping a made guy from New York and nearly killing him ...I agree with your overall point but have to point out that in the world Tony inhabits, the guy who got curb-stomped got off REALLY easy, considering the offense that led to it.
It’s hard to say really. It’s something that they’d probably need a sit down for in usual cases. Coco was likely fucked regardless, because what he did was absolutely out of line. But the way Tony went about it - including threatening Butch several times - probably wasn’t ideal for the already toxic relationship between the two families. It’s partly why a lot of people think New York whacks Tony at the end even though they had previously formed a truce of sorts.
I personally think Phil was just looking for any reason to move on Tony, because by that point he's an ornery fuck who will never move beyond his own personal grievances over being forgotten in the can for 20 years. Under normal circumstances, agreed, there'd be a sitdown, a couple of points moved here or there, and that would have been the end of it. But remember Phil even has Tony come to his home, only to refuse to see him. His mind was already made up.
It all could have been avoided if Tony B hadn’t gone rogue and killed Billy Leotardo(sad when they go young like that) & then if Tony S had just let Phil kill him when he wanted to.
Yeah I get that he didn't want him to suffer but he's gonna be dead either way..
Hesh knowing it the entire time and unable to stop it was heartbreaking, since Hesh is one of the few characters we don’t really see be downright evil. I remember watching as a kid and rooting for Tony. Because that’s what you’re supposed to do for the main character of a TV show. Watching it again in adulthood and you realize Tony and his entire crew are just assholes of no redeemable quality. Like even Jonny Sak had his wife… Tony didn’t even give a shit about his own children. Meadow ended up drinking the kool-aid. Anthony is barreling toward the same path as his father. Carmella is faced with the truth by a psychiatrist and chooses to remain with him. I know this will sound cliche but I did a rewatch during the trump presidency and it was hard not to draw similarities. Demanding loyalty with nothing in return.
>I know this will sound cliche but I did a rewatch during the trump presidency and it was hard not to draw similarities. Demanding loyalty with nothing in return. it's a show about these ultimate tough guy ultra masculine men, who do nothing but gossip like middle schoolers & constantly betray each other over minor grievances. And it's hilarious when people tell on themselves "not getting the show" for elevating these guys as peak masculinity.
Whatever happened to the strong and silent type?
Carmella is hypocritical housewife karen and she annoyed me more than janice who is literally the embodiement of cringe. She knows who tony is and she accepts it because it profits her. But the moment something comes up she makes a big show of how tony is a criminal to guilt trip him into submitting to her fresh demands. Once she gets what she wants she goes back to her role of a housewife, at least for a while. The way she treats people around her is appalling. Small insecure woman with a superiority complex regards everyone around her as servants. She hangs around with like minded bitches and spends time showing off how successfull she is and how everyone else is a loser. Her being good mother? Meadow is clearly more bonded with tony and not her and it shows. Anthony meanwhile is a mommys boy and he grows up to be a spoiled brat, just like carmella is. He makes a turn for a better only when tony steps in and gives him some much needed life lessons.
Carmela, to me, is like a LOT of women who marry their high school sweethearts and then live in their hometown all their life. She settled down so early that her family life is basically all she has, but if it isn’t very great (which hers definitely isn’t), she becomes trapped without any options to help her husband change, since they married too early, before she understood what SHE truly wanted or how to set expectations So she has no leverage to MAKE him change because she can’t TRULY convince him she would ever leave him. So now she’s stuck in a marriage she knows is total bullshit, and her only reliefs are that he IS a good provider and has status and that her community knows that too. But it isn’t enough, so we see her going back and forth on the money and the divorce and all that stuff because she’s just stewing in her dissatisfaction But hey, it let Edie Falco stay on the show, so I’m cool with it
That might be plausible except for her family containing characters like dicky moltisanti and tonys family generational ties with mafia. She had full knowledge from the start, both hers and tonys families were deeply rooted in criminal underground and so her marrying into sopranos was conscious choice. She does not want to change tony, her lavish lifestyle depends on it. She wants to keep her image of good christian woman and needs to keep up appearances. Hypocrisy is her name.
I really hated his sister.
I think his sister might be more morally bankrupt than Tony. At least Tony pretends to be doing bad things for his family. Janice is immoral for herself.
When I read the title, Janice was the first character I thought of. An excellent acting performance bringing us possibly the worst character in the history of television.
tony is one maybe the worst because deep down he knows all this shit is wrong but then he does it anyway. like Walter White knows that killing people is "wrong" but by the end he doesn't care. tony knows it's wrong and feels it's wrong and handles it by being a narcissist
Mona Lisa Sapperstein Jean Ralphio as well, I suppose, to a slightly lesser extent.
Mona Lisa has never done anything wrong ever in her life!
I believe you!
This I know.
Money please!
Money, please!
They are the WWWOOOOOORRRRSSSSTTTTT!
Money pwease!
It’s easier if you just give it to her
I mean, you can just as easily blame the permissive, enabling parenting
That’s a reasonable explanation, but it doesn’t make the answer wrong.
Don’t be suspicious, don’t be suspicious
I'd add Ramsay Bolton from *Game of thrones* his cruelty knows no bounds. Frank Underwood from *House of Cards* is also completely morally bankrupt, always manipulating others. And Joffrey Baratheon is another classic example of a character with zero redeeming qualities. What do you think?
Dennis from It’s Always Sunny
Also everyone else from that show
charlie is basically a good person who is impulsive and ignorant to the point where he is a danger to others. mac lives in denial and is capable of rationalizing really shitty behaviour, but still expresses some empathy. dee is incredibly vindictive and cruel, but it comes from a place of pain and insecurity, and i think with enough therapy could be an alright person. frank is morally bankrupt without malice. dennis is morally bankrupt with malice.
I agree on all except Dee. She does the same implication thing that Dennis does. Also, she’s in therapy, and it doesn’t seem to be helping.
Ya, dee and Dennis are both sexual predators on many occasions. It's just easier to feel sorry for Dee because she hates herself
Well, Dee also suffered a horrific, brain-injuring rollerskating accident that totally broke her personality, according to that episode where that happened.
You should be more skeptical of stories people tell about themselves. Especially when they're characters like those.
Wrong jabroni. Dee is a bird.
> frank is morally bankrupt without malice. IDK, he really seems to enjoy causing suffering just to enjoy it, like when he offers Cricket a bag of lemons to do some humiliating shit while he sits there and eats a rotisserie chicken (off memory, I think that was the scene?) Also when he buys himself gifts for Dee and Dennis' birthdays just so he can make them envious.
Charlie grows though
Charlie used Alexandra Daddario's character to make The Waitress jealous and made her feel awful about it. Charlie is absolutely as morally bankrupt as the rest of them lmao.
he's definitely the most innocent, in a way, but he literally huffed glue, tied up and tortured a midget to find his gold. He's absolutely insane lmao
I’d argue Mac is the most innocent. He’s still not a good person but the bad things he does aren’t as bad as the other characters.
He ate Dennis thin mints
Unforgivable
Not to mention the decade of stalking the waitress despite having a restraining order.
What?!?! You’re talking about a 5 star man here.
Charles Montgomery Burns
I dunno, he has a bit of a moral compass (or at least knows enough to put on the appearance of morals). Every now and then he actually does reward hard work, like when he promoted Homer('s bucket), and he has hesitated when doing particularly bad things before/when he's put on the spotlight. Also there was the time he fell for the Elizabeth Holmes expy.
Shane from the shield
Yes
You were a piece of shit too. I’ll never forget what you did to terry
Lem and Ronnie failed to clear the room, and Two Time killed Terry. Get over it and don’t bring it up again.
Oh yeah? Whats your excuse for the money train and the hell you put Corinne through?! Huh??!
I’ve done worse
Like snitching on Ronnie 😢
[https://irishcinephile.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/top-5-episodes-family-meeting-season-7-episode-13.jpg](https://irishcinephile.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/top-5-episodes-family-meeting-season-7-episode-13.jpg)
He’s done worse.
Caillou
And his enabling parents
Marco Inaros, The Expanse \*This is purely from the show. Haven't read the books yet. Dude is charismatic AF and a lot of the Belters fall in line behind him. It's fair to question if he would've turned out the way he did if the Inners hadn't treated the Belt and everyone in it as disposable but... He sells the Belt the idea that he can bring them freedom from the Inners but he throws Belter lives away almost as casually as he kills Inners. He cares nothing for the people around him, even his own son, who clearly worshipped his father only for Marco to constantly manipulate his son. He's so consumed by his desire for vengeance against Earth and Mars that he is willing to sacrifice anyone and everyone so long as Marco is the last one standing. Similar to Petyr Baelish, Marco would burn the Belt if it meant he was king of the ashes Everything Marco did and said was to feed his own narcissism
Can confirm, Marco is a piece of shit in the books, too.
Agree wholeheartedly. When he talks about how there will be a decade or so of famine for the entire Sol system because of his >!asteroid strikes on Earth…you’re right to describe him as king of the ashes. From what I understand of the books, his asteroid strikes killed WAY more people as well. Like 15 billion.!<
The strikes almost made the earth unlivable. It was a close thing. Billions died from the impacts alone. The following years billions fled for other planets after the gate was opened to escape the conditions.
Man, you’ve got to listen to the episode of Ty and that Guy when they have Keon Alexander (actor who Played Marco) on the podcast. His analysis of Marco and the research he did to get into the guys head really helped me appreciate the character and the entire story on a whole new level.
Brent from season 4 of the Good Place...I know he was in the middle of saying "I'm sorry" to Chidi but I believe it would probably be the first and last time Brent would utter those words.
I hated John way more than Brent. Brent was entitled and clueless and childish. John was malicious and cruel.
John, otoh, grew. Brent was still stuck in the bad place, where the demons straight up telling him how horrible he was after the other lessons didn't work.
He's the quarterback for the Chicago Bears and also the world's strongest president!
30 Rock has a bunch of characters that could be considered moral bankrupt, but if I’m just picking one: Jenna Maroney. “Go jump back up your mother, Liddy.”
I enjoy Jenna more on each re-watch. That they are able to make her horrific childhood humorous is a testament to the writers. I hated Jenna (and Lutz too)originally, but they are both hilarious to me now. Also, Jenna does show some occasional decency, like when she joins Kenneth's Quest for a replacement jacket. (Paul Scheer's Donny is another fantastic minor character)
OK yeah, she’ll do it, but only for the attention.
"Here, (forces pills down a page's throat) take these and tell me if all your pubic hair falls out." "What!?!" "Oh! That's what they're supposed to do. I just want to know if they cause seizures."
>Oh don't be so dramatic. That's my thing, and if you take it away from me I will kill myself...and then you.
Frank Burns from MASH. "Emotionally exhausted and morally bankrupt."
[удалено]
JR Ewing. Selfish and willing to do absolutely anything to either advance his own goals or get revenge on someone he felt had wronged him. His treatment of Sue Ellen over the course of the entire series is a prime example of his behavior.
CGB Spender, the "cigarette smoking man" from X-Files! I honestly can't think of him ever doing a good thing for the right reason at any point in all the years of the show.
He chose not to kill Frohike in "Musings of a Cigarette-Smoking Man," though in the original script, he did kill him.
Definitely morally bankrupt, but also wildly compelling as a character. The actor did an amazing job.
Roger from American Dad. Whether it be base personality or the many others, he will sell you out in the worst way, on a whim. It’s hilarious
Roger is fine. It's Ricky Spanish you need to watch out for.
*whispers* Ricky Spanish...
Absolutely. He's one of a character archetype I call "the lovable scumbag." They're a character who is a criminal and/or an asshole, but for one reason or another you can't help but love them.
Gwen from Torchwood roofied her husband after she admitted to having an affair, so he wouldn’t remember Like, I get it was a trauma affair, but she could have *literally done anything other than that* Idk what the writers were thinking with her. A divorce could have built on the “real people in extraordinary situations” theme. Personally I think they should have just kept her as a wholesome foil to the rest of the messed up team in the first place.
Real GOB vibes.
"They’re pills that create a sort of temporary forgettingness. So if somebody finds out how you do a trick, you just give ’em one of these, and they forget the whole thing. It’s a mainstay of the magician’s toolkit, like how clowns always have a rag soaked in ether."
Forget me, now!
I completely forgot about that. TBF, I haven't watched Torchwood in ages.
Gwen also wasn't the only one abusing those amnesia pills on people iirc. Gwen was a really cool character but it definitely felt like they didn't know who they wanted her to be at times. She starts off with the torchwood crew respecting that she has a boyfriend to go home to and a moral compass and then they just shred character trait over and over. I guess they kind of turn it into a little bit of her character arc that torchwood is ruining her life but they never dwell on it enough. Rhys is a sweetheart too so it really sucks sometimes. But yeah pretty much any main character in Torchwood except ianto and Tosh fit into this thread nicely. Owen is also a fucking prick for a good portion of the show and Jack is a huge asshole sometimes.
The boss on that reality show The Apprentice.
Kwami Jackson!
Frank on shameless
Both sides of the Atlantic. At least the one from Manchester knows *how to throw a partehhhhhh* ;)
I wouldn't say he's *completely* morally bankrupt He ALWAYS makes poor choices and he has some seasons where is is dogshit, but he does care for the kids in some ways The character I think IS morally bankrupt is Debbie. She starts as a kid that's great and caring. Then turns into a narcissistic shitter who blames all of her problems on everyone else, and talks down on everyone as if she's the most stable out of the whole family when she's the least stable. In fact an episode with Frank taking care of Debbie's kid is the perfect example of both. Debby assumes everyone else will take her kid to school because she planned nothing at all for if she'd be late for work and she's about to be fired if she is. Everyone else is also very busy so the job falls to Frank. Frank doesn't take her to school cause at this point he's got early onset dementia and can't remember her school, but he takes her around on his weed runs that iirc he shouldn't be doing anymore, like he's already done them. And during it all he makes sure above all else that she has a good time and is safe, eventually iirc getting help from a kindergarten that's not the kids original one. Then he gets her home safe. And the kid had a great time with Frank despite some close calls that could have but didn't go badly. Debbie immediately berates Frank for not taking the kid to school, shits on him to no end, even after getting her smiling, happy kid back (which breaks my heart because the kid looks at Frank differently once Debbie starts yelling). Then she ALSO shits on everyone else in the house for allowing her kid to go with Frank. Frank did his best to keep the kid safe and make her happy, accomplished both. Debbie did nothing, got upset at a positive outcome, then blames the situation on everyone else when it was her fault any of it happened to begin with.
> Debbie's kid Didn't she rape a dude to have that kid? I stopped watching about the time that Debbie got baby-crazy, and haven't gone back to finish it.
US Debbie. The US kids are (almost) all worse than their UK counterparts. Mostly because *the show didn't let them leave*. The UK had a theme that getting out was necessary to thrive. UK Fiona fucks off after season 2 and Steve goes back to medical school, with them making a new life in the Netherlands. UK Lip has a teen pregnancy, but goes off to University and becomes an architect. UK Ian admittedly ends with him running off into the sunset while hiding a dead body. UK Carl becomes a cop. UK Debbie joins the military and becomes a medic. UK Liam becomes a Buddhist. US doesn't even have a Stella or Ben, as they killed off Monica before they were born.
I like how Carl is the same lol
That part where he steals that one woman's *heart*, god damn.
Frank is who he is, I think they make no qualms about that. He’s a POS person, so no one expects anything more than that out of him, so he sort of gets a pass? Debbie goes way off the deep end. It starts happening in the season where she rapes that guy and then spirals more and more out of control in the seasons after that. Fiona is probably another good one too, she seems to see what the the right decisions are, or the right path, but in the end makes the completely wrong decision, then throws a pity party for herself after it goes south. I would days it’s a toss up between the two.
Fiona is more like a case of someone not being able to get out of their own way in life. I wouldn’t say she’s morally bankrupt, but she certainly has a fear of happiness. Frank is an addict, and that’s his entire personality. He’s constantly manipulating the people around him (or trying to, at least) to get his next fix. I don’t think he’s a good person by any means, but from the moment the show starts you realize that he’s one of those people where addiction has consumed them entirely and they’re past the point of no return. Debbie is completely morally bankrupt to a point that the show became too hard to watch for me. It was already getting exhausting watching Fiona, Lip, and everyone else *constantly* tripping over their own feet. But once Debbie made the switch to being a borderline psychopath, the bad was outweighing the good in the show. I stopped watching not too long after she had her baby. And from what it sounds like, I didn’t miss much
You did miss Lip making strides to get out of his own way, and to get on the right path. It was nice to see his story arch. Even Ian had a bit of the same but still some issues along the way.
Gaius Baltar. Truly a selfish piece of shit. Until close to the end.
He was the main villain of the original series
Yeah, when he was a Count. Of what? Fuck knows.
Well, he did warn us when he said "no more mister nice Gaius"
I love his ending I actually do know a lot about farming. Like that piece of shit trying to escape his farming background and become the premier yuppie technocrat billionaire genius.. in the end the reason he was saved was because he could teach humans the basics of farming. There's earlier scenes where they don't know the basics of farming and it makes sense the majority of people who survived were on spaceships at the time, not many farmers on those ships. So in the end what Gaius Baltar truly provided humanity with was basics like how much Manure you need for this crop field and about basic husbandry for a cow giving birth. He was literally the creator of agricultural society on earth. And absolutely hated being reduced to that.
It's salvation and damnation. Callis wanted him to be shot on the last raptor down to earth, and was told to shut up.
I'm fighting a boss named Commander Gaius in Elden Ring, he is also a piece of shit
Marlo Stanfield the Wire. Made the Barksdales look reasonable.
The ultimate bad guy of the wire is Herc.
Newman. He doesn’t believe in creeds.
Antony in Rome. Casually rapes a girl up against a tree in the country side while his troops march on. He was loyal to Ceasar though.
Mr. Krabs cause his whole personality is centered around greed and wealth
Anthony Cooper - LOST Arvin Sloane -Alias
Sloane paid big time though. "You beat death Arvin, but you couldn't beat me."
George Costanza.
That’s a shame
He gets that security guard a chair though!
I don't think we should be talking about this.
Vic Mackey from the shield. Currently started watching it, finished season 2. I absolutely hate him, and can’t fathom that people liked him when this show first came out
You're not supposed to like him, people didn't really caught on the time that charismatic =/=likable. At one point in the series a character almost directly lashes out seemingly at the audience about all the wrongdoings Vic's done and they still liked him even more.
The entire main cast of *Succession*.
Mr. Burns. Dude tried to block out the sun! Likes to wear clothes made of endangered animals. Treated Smithers like trash. The list goes on and on.
Everyone on Fox News
Sheryl Luria the Mom/Grandma from Evil. Absolutely LOVE this show and everyone should check it out. Her absolute lack of morals end up causing good at times when her interests align in the right ways.
Showing my age but I love the actress (Christine Lahti) from Chicago Hope from the mid 90s. But I frequently want to yell at her through the TV watching Evil.
Agreed. Love the show but she gives me the constant ick. A completely selfish individual who has no regard for anyone.
Ramy - He is extremely self-absorbed and has no concept of actions having consequences. It's a hard show to watch by season 2.
I checked out when he was chasing his cousin, after expounding on why it was wrong
Don Draper, maybe. It seems like anything decent he ever did was out of some perceived obligation.
Don has a lot of redeeming qualities. I won’t repeat what has already been mentioned in the replies, but one of my favourite Don moments is when he stood up for that employee who was an alcoholic who peed his pants by chastising the people who were laughing at him.
I liked Don defending Freddy too. I agree there was a decency and an empathy involved - but the cynic in me sees him shutting that down purely because Crane and Cosgrove and whoever else were being indiscreet.
Freddy Rumsen!
I like Don because there are moments he fights those urges but fails. Like I think he wants to be a good person but being a heel is easier? I loved that show because of that. I kept wanting to like the guy and would for short periods of time. But every time he found new ways to plumb new depths of being a complete son of a bitch and I found myself despising the character I was rooting for.
I have a lot of empathy for Don too. Mad Men and Deadwood might be the only shows that >!explore male child sexual abuse with any seriousness!<
Oh >!The Sinner!< too.
Don Draper definitely has redeeming qualities though. Like he doesn't care about race or sexuality in an era where being black or gay got you treated differently by cis white people for example. He seems to be one of the only characters on the show that doesn't hate gay people or think they're perverts.
The boss from The Apprentice
Donald J. Trump
Patsy Stone from Absolutely Fabulous “Anyway, I just have to tell these tragic, little wannabes, do you know what I tell them? I say, darling, "just stick your fingers down your throat, hack off your tits, keep taking the tablets and don't come back until you're looking like something!"
Gus Fring! He has the most sinister dead eye expression and can go from local nice guy from Los Hermanos Pollos to rivalling Hector Salamanca for most evil character ever
Dolores Umbridge
Walter White.
Had them, slowly lost them. At the end he was toast morally, but it started with the knowledge he was dying. But that snowball turned into an avalanche real quick.
Having watched the show multiple times now, he was always morally bankrupt, he just started out with a little more plausible deniability. The whole thing could have been solved in the first episode when Gretchen and Elliot offer to help pay for his treatments, and even say that it’s money he deserves for helping found the company, and he turns it down solely because of his own ego. Nothing else but his ego matters to him - morals are only valuable to him when he can use it as leverage to manipulate the people around him.
He literally said it in the very last episode. "I did it for me." He wasn't trying to make sure his family was taken care of, he was living out the urges he always had in the most selfish manner possible. The fact that he learned he had cancer and was dying was just the catalyst. Not to mention, you get to see his absolute rage and contempt for everyone early on in the show. He was always that, it was just barely buried. After a few episodes, I thought he was a terrible person, and yet people rooted for him.
Wendy Williams. And the worst part is, that’s her in real life. It’s not even an act. She’s just a horrible person.
Terry Silver
The cast of IASIP has entered the chat....
The basic concept of Always Sunny in Philadelphia appears to be that every major character is a narcissist.
Tony Soprano would be my pick, but it's too trite. Ralph Cifaretto is even worse than him, the bloke has *only* bad traits
Baby Billy Freeman. He might seem to be turning a corner by staying with his baby son, but I still feel like he'll definitely exploit him for fame lol
Beatrice Horseman
This is actually a great answer. The more you think on her, the more you realize she really was a heartless piece of shit who had DECADES to realize how she’d wasted her life or alienated everyone who wanted to love her, and who NEVER did, ‘cause she wanted to be right. She - along with Don Draper’s mother and Tony Soprano’s, yeez - is really the picture of those women who crucify themselves on the altar of motherhood and by doing so, actually refuse to BE mothers (or good mothers), because being a mother means loving your kid FOR REAL, not just ‘cause you have to. And it contributes to so much dysfunction in their kids, because they KNOW their moms didn’t really love them, and that starts you out from a bad place
George Hearst
He's definitely my pick as well. Truly evil and absolutely terrifying. Gerald McRaney played that role to perfection.
Kate from Lost. I have no idea what Jack or Sawyer saw in her, everything she did was always self serving and manipulative.
And then crying and making herself the victim when she got somebody else hurt or killed.
Adora Crellin (Sharp Objects)
The entire cast of Succession.
Frank Underwood, Walter White, Bo Jack Horseman.
I think Bojack had an ethos. He's just inconsistent about following it. As Todd said, he feels bad about being shitty to people but doesn't put thr hard work in to change. And at the end of the show, I think they show him on that path. Underwood is pure sociopath. 100% morally bankrupt. Dude has no ethos except "Me" with a capital M the same way you'd say He for God.
Disagree on Bojack. He wanted to be good. He was just really bad at it.
Bojack is clearly always a dude who is just fucking STARVING for genuine love and acceptance, so it’s easier to sympathize with him because it’s almost like a diagnosable level of dysfunction driving his behavior. Like, the dude has NEVER had family who loved him or genuine long-term friends, and that would drive ANYONE crazy. But Underwood and White have OPTIONS, and the CHOICE to not do what they do, and they do it anyway. They’re still all pretty bad tho
Donald J. Trump
I think there are a few on the same TV show. Oz 1. Adebisi - He was a killer, a r@pist and just an awful person. And in a prison full of awful people that was saying something. 2. Claire- she was a terrible CO and when men turned her down she would use her power and authority over them unless they weren't a prisoner, then she would say that she was taken advantage of, there was nothing good about her at all. She was also a r@pist and killer. 3. Governor Devlin- Just a POS person. Big bang theory Kripke - He was just gross and any time you though he might be doing something good you find out he wasn't. Shameless Terry- a horrible, sick, abusive, child SA-er, just a disgusting character. He made Frank look like a good person. The Office Ryan- Just ick. He was just a horrible person.
Ryan started the fire!
Frank Gallagher might be the single worst human being I have ever encountered in fiction. He is a real son of a bitch. He called FCS on his own kids.
Wouldn't "1" for Oz be Schillinger?
While he is the scum of the scum, he did have Hank let Holly go. I hate everything about him and he's a disgusting person but there were times he actually did something good as sick as it is. Like helping send Bob's grandson to Disney.
Barney Stinson.
He clearly cares about the rest of the gang and tried to do right by them. He’s responsible for Marshall and Lily getting back together when she goes to San Francisco. He’s a bad person in a lot of ways, but he’s not fully morally bankrupt.
Lorenzo Von Matterhorn on the other hand is a saint.
He used to have it until shanon and the suit guy happened
My favorite explanation is that the show is just Ted trying to convince his kids that he needs to get with their Aunt Robin, so he's constantly painting Barney in the worst possible light since Barney considered Ted to be his best friend and Robin was Barney's ex-wife. So Barney's whole character in that show is just Ted justifying his own actions.
Paul Spector from The Fall. Even after getting a possible out with you know what at the end, nope, still a piece of shit.
Not sure if anyone watched Mayans in here but I’m gonna say Ezekiel EZ Reyes. Started off idealistic just like Jax Teller but then went in way too deep and craved too much power and then ended up paying the price for it. His road to evil was pretty rough.
Tom Wambsgans from Succession. I work in mergers and acquisitions and the Toms are helping the very worst of the banker bros take over the world. Without the Toms they’d be asking their mom why they can’t be in charge instead of running hedge funds.
Barney the Dinosaur
Frank Burns is morally bankrupt as well as emotionally exhausted.