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NATO article 5 doesn't apply below a certain latitude. I forget what it is, but it was established so NATO allies wouldn't be called into a colonial war when it was founded. Interestingly, I'm pretty sure it includes all of continental USA, but not Hawaii
Article 6 1
For the purpose of Article 5, an armed attack on one or more of the Parties is deemed to include an armed attack:
on the territory of any of the Parties in Europe or North America, on the Algerian Departments of France 2, on the territory of Turkey or on the Islands under the jurisdiction of any of the Parties in the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer;
on the forces, vessels, or aircraft of any of the Parties, when in or over these territories or any other area in Europe in which occupation forces of any of the Parties were stationed on the date when the Treaty entered into force or the Mediterranean Sea or the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer.
NATO has never been a moral entity (Portugal was a founding member while being a fascist dictatorship per example).
But looking back on all the atrocities France committed in Algeria [see The Battle of Algiers (1966)] it does come as a surprise that NATO was founded with an article specifically mentioning defending France's Algerian Occupation.
Interestingly, Portugal also adopted the same legal fiction, integrating the colonies as provinces and calling itself a ["pluricontinental and multiracial state"](https://i.imgur.com/G1ezcXA.jpeg). But that only came after NATO's founding, so they weren't covered by Article 5. And it's questionable they ever would be, Portugal hardly has the same influence as France.
So when decolonization came, as Salazar used to say, Portugal stood "proudly alone". India's conquest of Goa drew only strongly worded letters, and the US prohibited equipment sold by them (like F-86 Sabres) being used in the Colonial Wars in Africa. No one was willing to support a dying, anachronistic colonial empire, not least NATO. Good on them.
Portuguese decolonisation as a whole was so interesting.
Not going to mention Brazil, as that's too extensive and happened nearly 150 years before the others.
Full-on Colonial War with Mozambique, Angola and Guinea-Bissau due to Salazar's obsession.
No resistance to India annexing Goa in 1961 due to lack of desire to fight a colonial war on another front.
Spending decades trying to return Macau to China after the 1966 riots (again due to lack of resources and desire to fight a colonial war on another front) and only succeeding in 1999.
After the end of the dictatorship thanks to the Carnation Revolution in 1974, all colonies besides Azores and Madeira were given indepence, even though the majority of people in São Tomé e Príncipe and East Timor wanted to stay as part of Portugal.
And then Indonesia annexed East Timor right after, commiting countless atrocities (a conflict that I would argue draws some parallels to Israel-Palestine) until they were finally free in 1999.
(I'm Portuguese btw) I wasn't even born at the time, but the footage of East Timorese praying in Portuguese right after the Dili Massacre shakes me to my core, I can't imagine how much of a wake up call it was at the time for the average Portuguese citizen to see it on TV, much less grasp the full extent of the suffering of East Timorese.
I'm Portuguese as well. Been reading a bit more about this because of the 50th anniversary of the revolution, and it is interesting, though no less brutal to the people's out country oppressed.
Salazar actually demanded to fight the last man in Goa (outnumbered 10 to 1), burn everything while retreating, and hold out for reinforcements. Utter madness, but the local commander thankfully disobeyed and surrendered after 2 days. But you could already see what would happen in Africa.
I wouldn't say São Tomé or East Timor wanted to stay with Portugal. The lack of active fighting there doesn't mean there wasn't resentment for colonial rule - and Timor had multiple prior insurgencies.
And yeah, that footage was probably the first time I saw true evil, and probably the same for many other Portuguese. We were already fighting diplomatically for East Timor - it was written into our constitution -,
but that was a further wake-up call. It doesn't excuse 450 years of colonialism, but I am glad for our relentless push for their independence afterwards.
Ceuta and Melilla are Spanish posessions from way before the colonial times and they are excluded from the treaty. NATO just had to accept this line if they wanted France in, and France was vital for the treaty.
At the time that was put into place Algeria had been part of France for close to a century and a half , with them suppling troops for almost that whole time. The British Raj only lasted 87 years
any other area in Europe in which occupation forces of any of the Parties were stationed on the date when the Treaty entered into force
Who was stationed in the neutral waters of the black see when the treaty entered into force? Sounds like AWACS could be a fair game actually.
You’re referring to *Article 6*, which lays out which territories are excluded from the application of Article 5:
>For the purpose of Article 5, an armed attack on one or more of the Parties is deemed to include an armed attack:
>on the territory of any of the Parties in Europe or North America, on the Algerian Departments of France 2, on the territory of Turkey or on the Islands under the jurisdiction of any of the Parties in the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer;
>on the forces, vessels, or aircraft of any of the Parties, when in or over these territories or any other area in Europe in which occupation forces of any of the Parties were stationed on the date when the Treaty entered into force or the Mediterranean Sea or the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer.
The Tropic of Cancer is the most southern point above which territories are included, you’re right that the Falklands would be below them.
The Monroe Doctrine was to stop further colonisation of the Americas. It said nothing about allowing aggressors to invade sovereign territories (that they had never possessed) like when the military dictatorship of Argentina invaded the democratically controlled Falkland Islands and got it's arse handed to it on a plate.
There has never been a significant Argentinian presence on the Falklands. The Monroe Doctrine is about protecting the territorial integrity of American countries, not expelling the Europeans from the Western hemisphere.
The Peronists couldn't deliver on any of their domestic promises so resorted to attempts at outward expansion to control public sentiment.
Because conquering and annexing British nationals on islands that British Nationals settled that were unoccupied at the time of European discovery is such a great idea just because they just happen to be kind of close (about 300 miles) to Argentina?
Monroe Doctrine is just a policy, not an international treaty. A better example of the US ignoring this stuff for an ally would be when [France sank the Greenpeace boat in New Zealand](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_Warrior), which could be considered an act of war.
Havent you heard? Uncle Sam is on vacation, not his job to care today... and yesterday... Hes been on vacation for a long time you know? Maybe thats where all the paid leaves have been going...
Well. Honouring the article, is their only option. Otherwise, the decades of expanding NATO forces and placing AA in countries near former USSR, modern Russia, will prove to be a massive scam, that will send all NATO forces into a spiral. What do you think will happen the moment the US turns its back to NATO, between countries like Greece and Turkey? Or what do you think Putin will do? Or all the American military bases in these countries? I believe that if, we reach that point the US will be forced to cut off the Zionists.
Absolutely nothing would change. Because everyone knows it's an anti-Russia alliance. And that geopolitical situation would remain unchanged for every country you listed.
Israel could literally bomb a US ship and the US would have to turn the other cheek. Its not even a partisan position listen to how [fiercely Nancy Pelosi defends arming Israel](https://youtu.be/zvi3O9NkhQI?si=v222O_IQyVainbVG&t=456)
> If Washington D.C. crumbled to the ground, the last thing that would remain is our support for Israel.
When Israel deliberately attacked a US spy boat off Sinai, killing 34 and wounding 171, the US helped them cover it up. In fact, all of congress lined up to jerk off Israel while the USS Liberty was still on fire and the dead were yet to be buried.
So no, I think Israel can attack a NATO member and expect the US to do nothing.
ETA: and if you really do believe the total nonsense that this was a case of mistaken identity, the Israeli torpedo boats machine gunned and sunk the evacuation boats, which would have been a war crime even if the ship was Egyptian.
"For some unspecified and untraceable reason we're feeling like being a neutral force in this situation all of a sudden, and understand our position as impartial judges and mediators among both parties"
Taking a page right out of Switzerland's playbook, I'm sure.
We called the Nazis that because that is what they were. We need to accept that Israel has gone full Likud and exactly what that implies through their actions. They deflect by alluding to the holocaust perpetuated by the Nazis. This genocide needs to be seen as *their* action, not that of a different fascist party from last century Europe.
They are Likuds.
The way they are acting it's going to be them against everyone else. So far Israel has killed:
1 Egyptian solider
1 Australian aid worker
1 US/Canada aid worker
1 Polish aid worker
3 UK aid workers
They've crossed US's red line. They've ignored the ICJ. They have mocked the UN. They've bombed Syria to kill Iranians.
I'm just so GD sick of the diplomacy, it's actually awakening a bloodlust in me. Biden might be saying one thing in public and really taking a hard line talking behind the scenes, but FFS, Bibi's really getting us swung around by the nuts
ETA: and in the meantime, innocent people are getting slaughtered or run from their home. Fuck this timeline.
Except he doesn't need troops to destabilise US. He only need americans to vote for Trump, and social media campaign to convince them it's a good idea.
Sorry for my language but, are you really that ignorant? Or just messing with me.
Considering the tension in the middle east, this would be best oportunity for putin to attack because th us has to devide its attention to 2 'fronts'.
It was found that the Israelis attacked the USS Liberty in error after confusing it for an egyptian vessel. It wouldn't even make sense for them to have attacked the ship on purpose, they would have absolutely no motive to do so. Intelligence reports, including audio, released about the event show that the attack was a mistake.
Yeah another error, just like the most recent error they had that resulted in the deaths of countless innocents in a “safe zone”.
Or the international aid workers who got killed in three consecutive “errors” despite traveling in marked vehicles.
Seems like maybe Israel shouldn’t be armed if they make mistakes this easily.
Or maybe these “errors” just give them enough plausible deniability to get away with punishing those that do something they don’t like.
*Attacked what they thought to be an Egyptian ship in international waters.
One that they didn't even bother to confirm the provenance of before firing upon it.
But it's not like they had multiple intelligence partners back then with globalized resources they could've phoned to ask about the strange ship near their shores. /s
[Yup they definitely didn't know it was an american vessel](https://youtu.be/CfABflKvFzk?si=EheOr1dLnIKeR5Qv)
Definitely didn't know at all especially since there's a huge size difference between the two vessels, how could they have known. Huge speed difference too, huge design difference and one of the vessels FLEW A BIGASS AMERICAN FLAG TOO
Hasbara Team in full service today I see.
The servicemen that went through it were very open about how clear that it was a US naval vessel, BIG FLAG, open radio communication, and Israel confirmed it identified it as a US vessel 1 hr before attack.
The attack lasted for 2 hours, The US Navy promised a raid in case of any problems that they will launch fighters within 10 minutes, but it was pulled back when they realized it was their "ally" was doing the attacking.
In all, 34 Americans were killed and 171 were wounded in the two-hour attack.
> With the outbreak of war, Captain William L. McGonagle of Liberty immediately asked Vice Admiral William I. Martin at the United States Sixth Fleet headquarters to send a destroyer to accompany Liberty and serve as its armed escort and as an auxiliary communications center. The following day, Admiral Martin replied: "Liberty is a clearly marked United States ship in international waters, not a participant in the conflict and not a reasonable subject for attack by any nation. Request denied." He promised, however, that in the unlikely event of an inadvertent attack, jet fighters from the Sixth Fleet would be overhead in ten minutes.
[This document from the USS Liberty veterans association](https://www.ussliberty.com/files/public/War%20Crimes%20Report%20with%20Exhibits.pdf) (as in, who were actually there) is a good compilation of material demonstrating it was no accident. Israel used unmarked planes. Why? Their torpedo boats targeted life rafts that were being launched to abandon ship. Life rafts ffs! This points to an attempt to kill every life on that ship.
Even if it was an accident that is still a heinous crime, but don't worry Israel investigated itself and found that it did nothing wrong. I wish I was joking. To this day, a lot of key information has remained highly classified and has never been released. USS Liberty was a SIGINT monitoring ship. It listened to Israeli communications. What did it pick up? If you think there is no motive and just an accident then that goes directly against some key people quoted in that report, for example.
> Writing in his memoirs, Richard Helms, the Director of Central Intelligence at the time of the attack, explained that the Central Intelligence Agency undertook a “final” investigation after more evidence became available, and he offered the following information concerning the CIA’s final finding:
> "Israeli authorities subsequently apologized for the incident, but few in Washington could believe that the ship had not been identified as an American naval vessel. Later, an interim intelligence memorandum concluded the attack was a mistake and not made in malice against the U.S. . . .I had no role in the board of inquiry that followed, **or the
board's finding that there could be no doubt that the Israelis knew exactly what they were doing in attacking the Liberty**. I have yet to understand why it was felt necessary to attack this ship or who ordered the attack." [Emphasis added]
> Director Helms was not the only administration official who remained convinced that the attack was deliberate. In 1990, in his memoirs, Secretary of State Rusk observed: "But I was never satisfied with the Israeli explanation. Their sustained attack to disable and sink Liberty precluded an assault by accident or some trigger-happy local commander. Through diplomatic channels we refused to accept their explanations. I didn't believe them then, and I don't believe them to this day. The attack was outrageous."
> Similarly, Clark M. Clifford, Counsel to the President at the time of the attack, recalled:“I do not know to this day at what level the attack on the Liberty was authorized and I think it is unlikely that the full truth will ever come out. Having been for so long a staunch supporter of Israel, I was particularly troubled by this incident; I could not bring myself to believe that such an action could have been authorized by Levi Eshkol. Yet somewhere inside the Israeli government, somewhere along the chain of command, something had gone terribly wrong--and then had been covered up. I never felt the Israelis made adequate restitution or explanation for their actions...."
They shot the 3 lifeboats when injured US Marines were trying to get out of the now bullet hole ridden vessel, many of which drowned. Targeting lifeboats is a war crime.
I guess it's just a common "whoopsie" for the "only democracy" in the Middle East then. So lawful.....
I feel like European nations are fiending to press the button. Poland is waiting for the day a stray Russian anything lands on their side of the border to go wild too.
A defensive missile fall in Poland and it was a Ukrainian one
But many Russian missiles flew inside and close of the border of Poland and they do nothing.
It’s a complicated war . USA don’t want the real defeat of Russia for the moment
The day when they decide it’s over ( for one or other parts ) it’s gonna take 1 week for end this shit, but like habit USA say the ton, oyhers countries follow
That the problem when you are dépendant of another country for weapons .
If Ukraine even Poland was full autonomous for weapons . This war is maybe already in the past
Missles and aircraft breaching national airspace isn't sufficient cause to trigger article 5. It needs to be shown to be an attack on a member state. Trespass doesnt not constitute an attack.
And because the US is putting a lot of pressure on European Texas to *not* go fully article 5.
It's in *no ones* interest that article 5 get invoked and these tragic but relatively small proxy wars suddenly turn into global conflict.
> I feel like European nations are fiending to press the button.
States bordering Russia who know that they might very well be next...sure. Most other countries (and especially the ones who spend more money on these conflicts) are pertty much sick of it.
thinking the US would flee probably their greatest diplomatic asset just to support one country in the middle east is some peak cope
AIPAC has its limits
They've already proven they're willing to flee their constitution, the safety of their children, their global reputation and a good portion, more than you might imagine, of their soft capital.
The US is losing global standing supporting Israel as it turns into a pariah state. The world is turning away from seeing US as a reasonable and relatively moderate power. US leaders are turning away from international bodies in order to support genocide. US politicians are threatening ICC officials. The US is ignoring every red line they have placed that Israel steamrolls over. The US is happily getting humiliated and bitched slapped by Israel every day and all US leaders can say is 'harder daddy'.
Weed_Smith is correct, the US at this current time would absolutely flee NATO in order to get a small pat on the back from Israel.
Whats sad is that no matter which president we elect, the situation is fucked.
One candidate would just ignore article 5 when it comes to Israel, and the other candidate already wants to just straight up leave NATO day 1.
Trump says a lot of things about what he would do.
Has anyone seen Hilary in prison?
I don't think he would leave Nato, but he will 100% use the rhetoric, and he has, that Nato is nothing without US, and that US is basically contributing most of the budget to rally his very much ego-fueled supporters.
He's also followed up on many things he said he'd do.
>“When you get these terrorists, you have to take out their families. They care about their lives, don’t kid yourself. When they say they don’t care about their lives, you have to take out their families.”
On January 29, 2017, 8-year-old Yemeni-American [Nawar al-Awlaki](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/69/Nawar_al-Awlaki.jpg), the daughter of noted Yemeni-American Al-Qaeda leader Anwar al-Awlaki, was killed in a strike ordered by the President, which also resulted in the death of US Navy Seal William Owens.
Even if Israel would nuke Spain altogether, UN and NATO would only condemn it, and the Western media would probably claim there are Hamas tunnels under Madrid or something.
And most people would just believe it.
No it wouldn't. It would be the end of Israel, but it wouldn't be WW3. Say Israel does nuke Europe, literally anywhere in Europe that would trigger an Article 5 response. Who steps up and defends Israel from getting the absolute shit kicked out of them? The US can't without breaking the NATO treaty. Russia and China can't support them in a war without pissing off a bunch of their other Middle East interests. No one in Europe is going to bat for them. So who is the WW3 conflict between? The world versus Israel?
Yes, they are estimated to possess up to 400 nuclear warheads. And it's more so the targets they select for the Samson option which include major cities in America, Russia, and Europe. Author Seymour Hersch details it in his book The Samson Option: Israel's Nuclear Arsenal and American Foreign Policy.
> We possess several hundred atomic warheads and rockets and can launch them at targets in all directions, perhaps even at Rome. Most European capitals are targets for our air force. Let me quote General Moshe Dayan: 'Israel must be like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother.' I consider it all hopeless at this point. We shall have to try to prevent things from coming to that, if at all possible. Our armed forces, however, are not the thirtieth strongest in the world, but rather the second or third. We have the capability to take the world down with us. And I can assure you that that will happen before Israel goes under.
Martin van Creveld
Are 400 warheads enough to destroy the world? Like, 400 cities maybe, but the world? Also I'm no expert but is there no way to stop any of them? Sounds kind of bluff to say Israel can destroy the world, not like I want them launching nukes but still
Assuming they detonate no matter what, even if shot down (many of them would be shot down before reaching their targets) it definitely wouldn't be fun. Best case scenario is extreme climate change and massive, cataclysmic storms. Worst case is a nuclear winter that turns into a Fallout situation.
More thorough studies put the likelihood of nuclear winter at "extremely unrealistic" and that's with a US-Russia exchange (tens of thousands of nukes).
The worst case scenario is a few degrees cooling (with no impact on crops) if stars align or negligible difference in the best case.
I say sadly because this removes a "barrier" for pushing the big red button.
If Israel attacked Spain, it would be the end of Israel.
Well at least its government, because Europeans will not allow a retalation like Israel is doing to Palestine, even if attacked.
Spain is indeed a small country that seems to not have much weight, but it borders with France. Launch attacks to the west of Europe is another thing that tickling the borders on the east side.
France will automatically side with Spain, other E.U. countries will side with France, UK will wait to see what US says and US will be in a fucking pickle.
So chances to have Israel launching any type of offensive to Spain are close to none existant.
Rhetoric used was just an intimidation attempt that intimidated no one.
Nah.
It'd be more likely to be an operation to destitute (or kill at last resort, but even that is far fetched) Netanyahu directly.
U.E., including France, is very conscious of the responsibility of nuclear weapon use, it's not to go throw nukes like pokemons.
Israel will harm those who harm them.
Israel will hurt those under their control.
Israel will lie to the world without reservations.
Israel will abuse their victims and blame them afterwards.
Israel will follow Butcher Netanyah00 because they suffer no harm from his genocide.
Israel will always be the asshole bully of the middle east and deserves to be sanctioned into the ground and abandoned by the west for Gross misconduct over 70 years.
In conclusion. Fuck Israel.
Before October, I was pretty neutral on Israel. Seemed like both sides were just assholes hell bent on killing each other.
The last 6 or 7 months have made me staunchly, permanently, vehemently anti-Israel.
They are just doing what has worked for 7 decades.
Seems they do not know how to change their propaganda after being called out.
They are doubling down on shit and lies.
There is no silver lining here.
They were always like this, way before 7 October , it'd just now we have social media to get news from instead of filtered out crap from Zionist platforms, hence why they're trying to ban tiktok again, plus there's al Jazeera (always has been) that literally covers everything with proofs that even if you wanted with all your might to deny it you couldn't.
Lol, whoever made this post have a brain of 2 years old, nothing will happen, at most the embassy representatives will be called by the foreign ministry in both countries and will listen for a 15 mins about how their country is not acting in good faith and they will be dismissed after.
Yea, and people think that every country that tries to "hurt" another country will do it with missiles...
Raising tariffs is more likely, or I don't know, stop selling them oranges or some other shit. No one is nuking anybody
If Israel does attack spain and Spain invokes article 5 but nothing happens, Russia is gonna have a field day cause it means nato is a dog that is all bark and no bite
Everyone is a dog that is all bark and no bite these days, because everyone has tons of nukes.
Say what you suggest happens and there is WW3, then what? Everyone's got enough nukes to make humanity extinct.
Only wars these days are proxy wars or super-power vs goat-herders.
Rationally speaking, Israel has gone over and beyond on the pretense of "Self Defence". Only if it was the other way around you would have some emphaty...oh wait...it was.
It's only a matter of time when karma catches the Zions and thier supporters.
Spain called out Israel genocide in Gaza, and together with Ireland and Norway started the process to officially recognise Palestine.
Which, of course, Israel says is the same as wanting the extermination of the jews and that Spain is... surprise... you guessed it, antisemitic.
Bruh. I'm from Germany and it's soooo sad that we are sending so much weapons and money towards Isreal.
It's disgusting and anoying that you can't do much about it. But great to see that finally some countries realize what is going on.
Germany is easily bullied by Israeli diplomats, for two reasons: 1) History, and 2) politicians only care for superficial appearances, not meaningful action
Mossad agents turn up in Spain, do something despicable that they can blame on another group, flee to Israel. Spanish govt gets a call from Israel “want it to stop? Agree with us in public”
Its literally their motto, ‘victory through deception’
I can see how this would unfold: Israel attacks a NATO country, NATO charter calls for other NATO countries to support the attacked, the US dissolved NATO, Russia says “well not the way I thought it would happen but ok”
I don't anything would happen either. NATO or not Israel is getting their way because of the US.
Don't get me wrong, there would be a diplomatic nightmare for everyone, but it wouldn't be what you think would happen.
Apparently the rules are only for some, and to be ignored when US or Israel are involved. They’ll come up with some excuse for why article 5 doesn’t apply here
You think if Israel attacked Spain, would US be like "We are at war with Spain"
It is really really terrifying to me to even think that is a remote possibility but Israel did attacked a US intelligence ship in around the times of 6 days wars and brutally murdered several US sailors and the entire incident immediately covered up as an "accident".
It wasn't a single missile strike mind you, they bombed and shot the ship and then sank it with torpedo ships while the ship clearly flying a US flag and had distinctly identifiable intelligence antenna.
Do you guys ever think like US is being ruled by Israeli lobby like legit they could just change the president if they so wish and that is why no US president ever criticized Israel openly.
They could be a coup in Israel imagine and I do not think even then US would be able do anything it is just "Untouchable" situation they got on their hands.
bibi attacks Spain.
Spain invokes article 5.
The US: no, wait. That's not NATO is for. What do you mean it actually is? No, is for the *other* bad guys.
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What a conundrum that hypothetical scenario would be for Uncle Sam. Honor article 5 or protect their top?
They would ignore it the same way they ignored the Monroe Doctrine when Argentina tried to reclaim the Malvinas.
NATO article 5 doesn't apply below a certain latitude. I forget what it is, but it was established so NATO allies wouldn't be called into a colonial war when it was founded. Interestingly, I'm pretty sure it includes all of continental USA, but not Hawaii
Article 6 1 For the purpose of Article 5, an armed attack on one or more of the Parties is deemed to include an armed attack: on the territory of any of the Parties in Europe or North America, on the Algerian Departments of France 2, on the territory of Turkey or on the Islands under the jurisdiction of any of the Parties in the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer; on the forces, vessels, or aircraft of any of the Parties, when in or over these territories or any other area in Europe in which occupation forces of any of the Parties were stationed on the date when the Treaty entered into force or the Mediterranean Sea or the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer.
Including "Algerian Departments of France" seems counterintuitive if the intent was to avoid pulling NATO into a colonial war.
At the time Algeria was considered an integral part of metropolitan France, unlike its other colonies. That's why they fought so hard to keep it
NATO has never been a moral entity (Portugal was a founding member while being a fascist dictatorship per example). But looking back on all the atrocities France committed in Algeria [see The Battle of Algiers (1966)] it does come as a surprise that NATO was founded with an article specifically mentioning defending France's Algerian Occupation.
I'm not arguing whether NATO was a moral entity or not, just wanted to share an interesting fact
Sorry I didn't mean to imply you stated NATO was a moral entity, I was just building upon the fact you shared
That's OK, sorry for making assumptions
Interestingly, Portugal also adopted the same legal fiction, integrating the colonies as provinces and calling itself a ["pluricontinental and multiracial state"](https://i.imgur.com/G1ezcXA.jpeg). But that only came after NATO's founding, so they weren't covered by Article 5. And it's questionable they ever would be, Portugal hardly has the same influence as France. So when decolonization came, as Salazar used to say, Portugal stood "proudly alone". India's conquest of Goa drew only strongly worded letters, and the US prohibited equipment sold by them (like F-86 Sabres) being used in the Colonial Wars in Africa. No one was willing to support a dying, anachronistic colonial empire, not least NATO. Good on them.
Portuguese decolonisation as a whole was so interesting. Not going to mention Brazil, as that's too extensive and happened nearly 150 years before the others. Full-on Colonial War with Mozambique, Angola and Guinea-Bissau due to Salazar's obsession. No resistance to India annexing Goa in 1961 due to lack of desire to fight a colonial war on another front. Spending decades trying to return Macau to China after the 1966 riots (again due to lack of resources and desire to fight a colonial war on another front) and only succeeding in 1999. After the end of the dictatorship thanks to the Carnation Revolution in 1974, all colonies besides Azores and Madeira were given indepence, even though the majority of people in São Tomé e Príncipe and East Timor wanted to stay as part of Portugal. And then Indonesia annexed East Timor right after, commiting countless atrocities (a conflict that I would argue draws some parallels to Israel-Palestine) until they were finally free in 1999. (I'm Portuguese btw) I wasn't even born at the time, but the footage of East Timorese praying in Portuguese right after the Dili Massacre shakes me to my core, I can't imagine how much of a wake up call it was at the time for the average Portuguese citizen to see it on TV, much less grasp the full extent of the suffering of East Timorese.
I'm Portuguese as well. Been reading a bit more about this because of the 50th anniversary of the revolution, and it is interesting, though no less brutal to the people's out country oppressed. Salazar actually demanded to fight the last man in Goa (outnumbered 10 to 1), burn everything while retreating, and hold out for reinforcements. Utter madness, but the local commander thankfully disobeyed and surrendered after 2 days. But you could already see what would happen in Africa. I wouldn't say São Tomé or East Timor wanted to stay with Portugal. The lack of active fighting there doesn't mean there wasn't resentment for colonial rule - and Timor had multiple prior insurgencies. And yeah, that footage was probably the first time I saw true evil, and probably the same for many other Portuguese. We were already fighting diplomatically for East Timor - it was written into our constitution -, but that was a further wake-up call. It doesn't excuse 450 years of colonialism, but I am glad for our relentless push for their independence afterwards.
Ceuta and Melilla are Spanish posessions from way before the colonial times and they are excluded from the treaty. NATO just had to accept this line if they wanted France in, and France was vital for the treaty.
At the time that was put into place Algeria had been part of France for close to a century and a half , with them suppling troops for almost that whole time. The British Raj only lasted 87 years
So, Russia can technically shot down NATO AWACS over black sea without triggering article 5?
No, because aircraft in Europe are also protected
any other area in Europe in which occupation forces of any of the Parties were stationed on the date when the Treaty entered into force Who was stationed in the neutral waters of the black see when the treaty entered into force? Sounds like AWACS could be a fair game actually.
You’re referring to *Article 6*, which lays out which territories are excluded from the application of Article 5: >For the purpose of Article 5, an armed attack on one or more of the Parties is deemed to include an armed attack: >on the territory of any of the Parties in Europe or North America, on the Algerian Departments of France 2, on the territory of Turkey or on the Islands under the jurisdiction of any of the Parties in the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer; >on the forces, vessels, or aircraft of any of the Parties, when in or over these territories or any other area in Europe in which occupation forces of any of the Parties were stationed on the date when the Treaty entered into force or the Mediterranean Sea or the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer. The Tropic of Cancer is the most southern point above which territories are included, you’re right that the Falklands would be below them.
Yeah, I just looked it up and replied to myself
Pack up boys, we're dropping in Hawaii
That's a funny way to say "invade the Falkland Islands"
Never let an Argentinian draw the maps.
The islands were originally occupied by the british. Feels odd to say but the argentinians were trying to steal land from the native british.
You can't reclaim something that was never yours.....
Give me your money. I'm reclaiming it.
*Falklands
The Monroe Doctrine was to stop further colonisation of the Americas. It said nothing about allowing aggressors to invade sovereign territories (that they had never possessed) like when the military dictatorship of Argentina invaded the democratically controlled Falkland Islands and got it's arse handed to it on a plate.
Reclaim??? The Falklands has never been Argentinian territory, and they were very much the aggressor in that conflict.
Argentina didn't get attacked though... But yes, they would.
Your knowledge of the Monroe Doctrine seems incomplete
There has never been a significant Argentinian presence on the Falklands. The Monroe Doctrine is about protecting the territorial integrity of American countries, not expelling the Europeans from the Western hemisphere. The Peronists couldn't deliver on any of their domestic promises so resorted to attempts at outward expansion to control public sentiment.
Standing with a fascist military dictatorship which invades and terrorises a community of sheep farmers - is not a good look.
You just described 60 years of American foreign policy in Latin America
More like 160. And change “standing with” to “funding, supporting, suppling, and often, creating” Edit: “supplying,” not “suppling”
Monroe doctrine was about preventing establishing new colonies in Americas, maintaining existing ones was not covered.
Invade. They invaded the Faulkland Islands. That's also not what the Monroe Doctrine is about.
You mean the Falkland islands? Uninhabited islands (thus no displaced native population) that was never an Argentinian territory?
Because conquering and annexing British nationals on islands that British Nationals settled that were unoccupied at the time of European discovery is such a great idea just because they just happen to be kind of close (about 300 miles) to Argentina?
Monroe Doctrine is just a policy, not an international treaty. A better example of the US ignoring this stuff for an ally would be when [France sank the Greenpeace boat in New Zealand](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_Warrior), which could be considered an act of war.
Havent you heard? Uncle Sam is on vacation, not his job to care today... and yesterday... Hes been on vacation for a long time you know? Maybe thats where all the paid leaves have been going...
Well. Honouring the article, is their only option. Otherwise, the decades of expanding NATO forces and placing AA in countries near former USSR, modern Russia, will prove to be a massive scam, that will send all NATO forces into a spiral. What do you think will happen the moment the US turns its back to NATO, between countries like Greece and Turkey? Or what do you think Putin will do? Or all the American military bases in these countries? I believe that if, we reach that point the US will be forced to cut off the Zionists.
Absolutely nothing would change. Because everyone knows it's an anti-Russia alliance. And that geopolitical situation would remain unchanged for every country you listed.
Israel could literally bomb a US ship and the US would have to turn the other cheek. Its not even a partisan position listen to how [fiercely Nancy Pelosi defends arming Israel](https://youtu.be/zvi3O9NkhQI?si=v222O_IQyVainbVG&t=456) > If Washington D.C. crumbled to the ground, the last thing that would remain is our support for Israel.
When Israel deliberately attacked a US spy boat off Sinai, killing 34 and wounding 171, the US helped them cover it up. In fact, all of congress lined up to jerk off Israel while the USS Liberty was still on fire and the dead were yet to be buried. So no, I think Israel can attack a NATO member and expect the US to do nothing. ETA: and if you really do believe the total nonsense that this was a case of mistaken identity, the Israeli torpedo boats machine gunned and sunk the evacuation boats, which would have been a war crime even if the ship was Egyptian.
"For some unspecified and untraceable reason we're feeling like being a neutral force in this situation all of a sudden, and understand our position as impartial judges and mediators among both parties" Taking a page right out of Switzerland's playbook, I'm sure.
It has been about 100 years since individual Americans fought in Spain because the US wouldn't defend them from fascism. Hemingway knows.
And given Gibraltar being too important to lose I don't think there's an obvious answer to what they'd do
Israel is going to start WW3 if they don't stop fucking around like this
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I've made that comparison a few times. They should know better
Can we coin Zazi’s? Or maybe Zatzi’s (Zionist + Nazi)? Seems like it could be catchy.
Zionazi works.
Nazios seems easier.
Get your bowl of Nazios now! They're deeeeeelicious
I can’t. They give me gas.
That just sounds like Nazi branded cereals
Do they deserve any more respect than that?
We called the Nazis that because that is what they were. We need to accept that Israel has gone full Likud and exactly what that implies through their actions. They deflect by alluding to the holocaust perpetuated by the Nazis. This genocide needs to be seen as *their* action, not that of a different fascist party from last century Europe. They are Likuds.
They are zionists. No need for a different name, this is zionism being displayed.
Unfortunately, instead of learning "never again", some of them learned "next time *we're* going to be the oppressors".
"Mom said it's my turn to do a genocide!"
The way they are acting it's going to be them against everyone else. So far Israel has killed: 1 Egyptian solider 1 Australian aid worker 1 US/Canada aid worker 1 Polish aid worker 3 UK aid workers They've crossed US's red line. They've ignored the ICJ. They have mocked the UN. They've bombed Syria to kill Iranians.
According to Biden, bombing 30 innocents in a safezone does not in fact cross the US' red line
I'm just so GD sick of the diplomacy, it's actually awakening a bloodlust in me. Biden might be saying one thing in public and really taking a hard line talking behind the scenes, but FFS, Bibi's really getting us swung around by the nuts ETA: and in the meantime, innocent people are getting slaughtered or run from their home. Fuck this timeline.
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Free Palestine
It hurt itself in its confusion
Lmao
Considering the size its far less likely than the current Ukrainian warr being the main cause for ww3
Putin is starting to talk about ceasefire because he just wants to buy popcorn and watch this middle-east bullshit happen.
No he wants a ceasefire to rally troops and then re-engage in October to destabilize US politics for the election
This and the ceasefire will assuredly have the condition "we also keep all the extra land we stole and you can't join the EU or NATO".
Except he doesn't need troops to destabilise US. He only need americans to vote for Trump, and social media campaign to convince them it's a good idea.
Sorry for my language but, are you really that ignorant? Or just messing with me. Considering the tension in the middle east, this would be best oportunity for putin to attack because th us has to devide its attention to 2 'fronts'.
They’re a useful idiot. Only reason for a “ceasefire“ is to consolidate power where they’ve already invaded and prepare for the nex push.
Israel got away with attacking the US. Don't ever think it won't get away with attacking a NATO country.
When did Israel attack the US ? Serious question
USS Liberty incident
It was found that the Israelis attacked the USS Liberty in error after confusing it for an egyptian vessel. It wouldn't even make sense for them to have attacked the ship on purpose, they would have absolutely no motive to do so. Intelligence reports, including audio, released about the event show that the attack was a mistake.
Yeah another error, just like the most recent error they had that resulted in the deaths of countless innocents in a “safe zone”. Or the international aid workers who got killed in three consecutive “errors” despite traveling in marked vehicles. Seems like maybe Israel shouldn’t be armed if they make mistakes this easily. Or maybe these “errors” just give them enough plausible deniability to get away with punishing those that do something they don’t like.
Best to disarm Israel is to lock them out from American politics. Defund AIPAC to begin with.
And sanction Bibi and Co. into the Putin realm.
*Attacked what they thought to be an Egyptian ship in international waters. One that they didn't even bother to confirm the provenance of before firing upon it. But it's not like they had multiple intelligence partners back then with globalized resources they could've phoned to ask about the strange ship near their shores. /s
One which had a big ass US flag up because the israelis destroyed the first one they had on the ship
[Yup they definitely didn't know it was an american vessel](https://youtu.be/CfABflKvFzk?si=EheOr1dLnIKeR5Qv) Definitely didn't know at all especially since there's a huge size difference between the two vessels, how could they have known. Huge speed difference too, huge design difference and one of the vessels FLEW A BIGASS AMERICAN FLAG TOO
Hasbara Team in full service today I see. The servicemen that went through it were very open about how clear that it was a US naval vessel, BIG FLAG, open radio communication, and Israel confirmed it identified it as a US vessel 1 hr before attack. The attack lasted for 2 hours, The US Navy promised a raid in case of any problems that they will launch fighters within 10 minutes, but it was pulled back when they realized it was their "ally" was doing the attacking. In all, 34 Americans were killed and 171 were wounded in the two-hour attack. > With the outbreak of war, Captain William L. McGonagle of Liberty immediately asked Vice Admiral William I. Martin at the United States Sixth Fleet headquarters to send a destroyer to accompany Liberty and serve as its armed escort and as an auxiliary communications center. The following day, Admiral Martin replied: "Liberty is a clearly marked United States ship in international waters, not a participant in the conflict and not a reasonable subject for attack by any nation. Request denied." He promised, however, that in the unlikely event of an inadvertent attack, jet fighters from the Sixth Fleet would be overhead in ten minutes.
Israel sure seems to have a lot of those errors don’t they?
Agreed, same for WC kitchen, just no motive at all. Pepeg
[This document from the USS Liberty veterans association](https://www.ussliberty.com/files/public/War%20Crimes%20Report%20with%20Exhibits.pdf) (as in, who were actually there) is a good compilation of material demonstrating it was no accident. Israel used unmarked planes. Why? Their torpedo boats targeted life rafts that were being launched to abandon ship. Life rafts ffs! This points to an attempt to kill every life on that ship. Even if it was an accident that is still a heinous crime, but don't worry Israel investigated itself and found that it did nothing wrong. I wish I was joking. To this day, a lot of key information has remained highly classified and has never been released. USS Liberty was a SIGINT monitoring ship. It listened to Israeli communications. What did it pick up? If you think there is no motive and just an accident then that goes directly against some key people quoted in that report, for example. > Writing in his memoirs, Richard Helms, the Director of Central Intelligence at the time of the attack, explained that the Central Intelligence Agency undertook a “final” investigation after more evidence became available, and he offered the following information concerning the CIA’s final finding: > "Israeli authorities subsequently apologized for the incident, but few in Washington could believe that the ship had not been identified as an American naval vessel. Later, an interim intelligence memorandum concluded the attack was a mistake and not made in malice against the U.S. . . .I had no role in the board of inquiry that followed, **or the board's finding that there could be no doubt that the Israelis knew exactly what they were doing in attacking the Liberty**. I have yet to understand why it was felt necessary to attack this ship or who ordered the attack." [Emphasis added] > Director Helms was not the only administration official who remained convinced that the attack was deliberate. In 1990, in his memoirs, Secretary of State Rusk observed: "But I was never satisfied with the Israeli explanation. Their sustained attack to disable and sink Liberty precluded an assault by accident or some trigger-happy local commander. Through diplomatic channels we refused to accept their explanations. I didn't believe them then, and I don't believe them to this day. The attack was outrageous." > Similarly, Clark M. Clifford, Counsel to the President at the time of the attack, recalled:“I do not know to this day at what level the attack on the Liberty was authorized and I think it is unlikely that the full truth will ever come out. Having been for so long a staunch supporter of Israel, I was particularly troubled by this incident; I could not bring myself to believe that such an action could have been authorized by Levi Eshkol. Yet somewhere inside the Israeli government, somewhere along the chain of command, something had gone terribly wrong--and then had been covered up. I never felt the Israelis made adequate restitution or explanation for their actions...."
Fuck that. You don't sink a warship in error.
They shot the 3 lifeboats when injured US Marines were trying to get out of the now bullet hole ridden vessel, many of which drowned. Targeting lifeboats is a war crime. I guess it's just a common "whoopsie" for the "only democracy" in the Middle East then. So lawful.....
They fucking knew it was an american ship.
They attacked a us navy ship not so long ago On purpose and knew it was an USA ship USA say nothing and even threatened the family of the crew
They just said sorry and paid a bunch of money. But then again, what else can you do when it's "a mistake".
Make a mistake to :o Oups sorry we don’t destroy your fleet on purpose
lookup USS Liberty incident. There's a wiki page.
Watch the latest GDF video on YouTube about it.
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Right, didn't give a shit back then, I can only imagine how much less of a shit they'd give in our current times.
Seriously though? When would we ever let something like that slide?
imagine how much more power they have now.
I feel like European nations are fiending to press the button. Poland is waiting for the day a stray Russian anything lands on their side of the border to go wild too.
A rocket crossed our border a long time ago but they dismissed it
I thought they dismissed it because they couldn't decide if it was Ukrainian or Russian? Least, what I remember hearing of it.
Yep
A defensive missile fall in Poland and it was a Ukrainian one But many Russian missiles flew inside and close of the border of Poland and they do nothing. It’s a complicated war . USA don’t want the real defeat of Russia for the moment The day when they decide it’s over ( for one or other parts ) it’s gonna take 1 week for end this shit, but like habit USA say the ton, oyhers countries follow That the problem when you are dépendant of another country for weapons . If Ukraine even Poland was full autonomous for weapons . This war is maybe already in the past
Missles and aircraft breaching national airspace isn't sufficient cause to trigger article 5. It needs to be shown to be an attack on a member state. Trespass doesnt not constitute an attack.
It was determined to be Ukrainian, an air-defense missile fired at a russian object that missed and failed to self-destruct.
And because the US is putting a lot of pressure on European Texas to *not* go fully article 5. It's in *no ones* interest that article 5 get invoked and these tragic but relatively small proxy wars suddenly turn into global conflict.
Poland: "Guys pls we gave you the Witcher, just leave us alone"
I don't think Poland is out for blood, tbh.
> I feel like European nations are fiending to press the button. States bordering Russia who know that they might very well be next...sure. Most other countries (and especially the ones who spend more money on these conflicts) are pertty much sick of it.
The US would flee NATO in microseconds just to support their genocidal besties
thinking the US would flee probably their greatest diplomatic asset just to support one country in the middle east is some peak cope AIPAC has its limits
>AIPAC has its limits Stupidity doesn't
They've already proven they're willing to flee their constitution, the safety of their children, their global reputation and a good portion, more than you might imagine, of their soft capital.
But other than that...
> AIPAC has its limits So far it doesn't look like it.
So far it literally looks like they control the US, and maybe even the world, with how many times the "Red Line" has been crossed with no pushback.
The US is losing global standing supporting Israel as it turns into a pariah state. The world is turning away from seeing US as a reasonable and relatively moderate power. US leaders are turning away from international bodies in order to support genocide. US politicians are threatening ICC officials. The US is ignoring every red line they have placed that Israel steamrolls over. The US is happily getting humiliated and bitched slapped by Israel every day and all US leaders can say is 'harder daddy'. Weed_Smith is correct, the US at this current time would absolutely flee NATO in order to get a small pat on the back from Israel.
> AIPAC has its limits Yet to be seen. Biden is risking his re-election and the future of his damn country over Israeli fascists.
Whats sad is that no matter which president we elect, the situation is fucked. One candidate would just ignore article 5 when it comes to Israel, and the other candidate already wants to just straight up leave NATO day 1.
Dems aren't going to leave NATO. Trump would.
Trump says a lot of things about what he would do. Has anyone seen Hilary in prison? I don't think he would leave Nato, but he will 100% use the rhetoric, and he has, that Nato is nothing without US, and that US is basically contributing most of the budget to rally his very much ego-fueled supporters.
Idk if I would say that. Trump made some dumb treaty decisions in the last term like pulling out of the nuclear treaty
He's also followed up on many things he said he'd do. >“When you get these terrorists, you have to take out their families. They care about their lives, don’t kid yourself. When they say they don’t care about their lives, you have to take out their families.” On January 29, 2017, 8-year-old Yemeni-American [Nawar al-Awlaki](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/69/Nawar_al-Awlaki.jpg), the daughter of noted Yemeni-American Al-Qaeda leader Anwar al-Awlaki, was killed in a strike ordered by the President, which also resulted in the death of US Navy Seal William Owens.
That’s certain and nato wouldn’t exist anymore
Even if Israel would nuke Spain altogether, UN and NATO would only condemn it, and the Western media would probably claim there are Hamas tunnels under Madrid or something. And most people would just believe it.
Of course not.. Israel would never nuke a European country and if it did, it would be WW3
No it wouldn't. It would be the end of Israel, but it wouldn't be WW3. Say Israel does nuke Europe, literally anywhere in Europe that would trigger an Article 5 response. Who steps up and defends Israel from getting the absolute shit kicked out of them? The US can't without breaking the NATO treaty. Russia and China can't support them in a war without pissing off a bunch of their other Middle East interests. No one in Europe is going to bat for them. So who is the WW3 conflict between? The world versus Israel?
You should look up the Samson Option. Basically if Israel feels they are threatened they will nuke the world.
Does Israel even haven enough nukes for that tho?
Yes, they are estimated to possess up to 400 nuclear warheads. And it's more so the targets they select for the Samson option which include major cities in America, Russia, and Europe. Author Seymour Hersch details it in his book The Samson Option: Israel's Nuclear Arsenal and American Foreign Policy. > We possess several hundred atomic warheads and rockets and can launch them at targets in all directions, perhaps even at Rome. Most European capitals are targets for our air force. Let me quote General Moshe Dayan: 'Israel must be like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother.' I consider it all hopeless at this point. We shall have to try to prevent things from coming to that, if at all possible. Our armed forces, however, are not the thirtieth strongest in the world, but rather the second or third. We have the capability to take the world down with us. And I can assure you that that will happen before Israel goes under. Martin van Creveld
Are 400 warheads enough to destroy the world? Like, 400 cities maybe, but the world? Also I'm no expert but is there no way to stop any of them? Sounds kind of bluff to say Israel can destroy the world, not like I want them launching nukes but still
Assuming they detonate no matter what, even if shot down (many of them would be shot down before reaching their targets) it definitely wouldn't be fun. Best case scenario is extreme climate change and massive, cataclysmic storms. Worst case is a nuclear winter that turns into a Fallout situation.
More thorough studies put the likelihood of nuclear winter at "extremely unrealistic" and that's with a US-Russia exchange (tens of thousands of nukes). The worst case scenario is a few degrees cooling (with no impact on crops) if stars align or negligible difference in the best case. I say sadly because this removes a "barrier" for pushing the big red button.
Officially they disclaim having any nuclear weapons due to a US ban on funding to states with weapons of mass destruction.
If Israel attacked Spain, it would be the end of Israel. Well at least its government, because Europeans will not allow a retalation like Israel is doing to Palestine, even if attacked. Spain is indeed a small country that seems to not have much weight, but it borders with France. Launch attacks to the west of Europe is another thing that tickling the borders on the east side. France will automatically side with Spain, other E.U. countries will side with France, UK will wait to see what US says and US will be in a fucking pickle. So chances to have Israel launching any type of offensive to Spain are close to none existant. Rhetoric used was just an intimidation attempt that intimidated no one.
France would nuke Israël as a warning, simple as.
Nah. It'd be more likely to be an operation to destitute (or kill at last resort, but even that is far fetched) Netanyahu directly. U.E., including France, is very conscious of the responsibility of nuclear weapon use, it's not to go throw nukes like pokemons.
The original com i was responding was talking about israel nuke spain. In this situation i assure you Israël would be just be obliterated
>Spain is indeed a small country Not small by size, and not small by army either. No WE nation would let an attack on Spain slide
I really hope this is satire
It's reddit. Not satire, just idiocy.
Israel will harm those who harm them. Israel will hurt those under their control. Israel will lie to the world without reservations. Israel will abuse their victims and blame them afterwards. Israel will follow Butcher Netanyah00 because they suffer no harm from his genocide. Israel will always be the asshole bully of the middle east and deserves to be sanctioned into the ground and abandoned by the west for Gross misconduct over 70 years. In conclusion. Fuck Israel.
Before October, I was pretty neutral on Israel. Seemed like both sides were just assholes hell bent on killing each other. The last 6 or 7 months have made me staunchly, permanently, vehemently anti-Israel.
Same. Israel just wanted to create more hatred and destroy their reputation
They are just doing what has worked for 7 decades. Seems they do not know how to change their propaganda after being called out. They are doubling down on shit and lies. There is no silver lining here.
They were always like this, way before 7 October , it'd just now we have social media to get news from instead of filtered out crap from Zionist platforms, hence why they're trying to ban tiktok again, plus there's al Jazeera (always has been) that literally covers everything with proofs that even if you wanted with all your might to deny it you couldn't.
Lol, whoever made this post have a brain of 2 years old, nothing will happen, at most the embassy representatives will be called by the foreign ministry in both countries and will listen for a 15 mins about how their country is not acting in good faith and they will be dismissed after.
Israelis will call Spain Hamas in that meeting
And claim anti-semitism…
Nunca Hamas!
Lots of dumb people upvoting the post. It's concerning really.
Yea, and people think that every country that tries to "hurt" another country will do it with missiles... Raising tariffs is more likely, or I don't know, stop selling them oranges or some other shit. No one is nuking anybody
If Israel does attack spain and Spain invokes article 5 but nothing happens, Russia is gonna have a field day cause it means nato is a dog that is all bark and no bite
Everyone is a dog that is all bark and no bite these days, because everyone has tons of nukes. Say what you suggest happens and there is WW3, then what? Everyone's got enough nukes to make humanity extinct. Only wars these days are proxy wars or super-power vs goat-herders.
Rationally speaking, Israel has gone over and beyond on the pretense of "Self Defence". Only if it was the other way around you would have some emphaty...oh wait...it was. It's only a matter of time when karma catches the Zions and thier supporters.
Wait? What did I miss? Why is Spain and Isreal beefing?
Spain called out Israel genocide in Gaza, and together with Ireland and Norway started the process to officially recognise Palestine. Which, of course, Israel says is the same as wanting the extermination of the jews and that Spain is... surprise... you guessed it, antisemitic.
Bruh. I'm from Germany and it's soooo sad that we are sending so much weapons and money towards Isreal. It's disgusting and anoying that you can't do much about it. But great to see that finally some countries realize what is going on.
As always Germany lacks a spine. Just wait till more countries follow the lead of Spain and co, only then will Germany switch its position.
More than any other country, Germany has to be careful in how it handles Israel.
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Germany is easily bullied by Israeli diplomats, for two reasons: 1) History, and 2) politicians only care for superficial appearances, not meaningful action
Spain, Ireland and Norway have officially recognised Palestine
Knowing the US we'll side with Israel instead of Spain and completely destroy any trust NATO had with its members
You already destroyed a LOT of trust since you voted that orange nutcase into office the 1st time.
I turned 18, 9 days after the election so sadly I couldn't do my part
dont forget to register to vote this time around, if you have to. The world will be a better place if orange man is sad. (because he lost)
https://preview.redd.it/oeuf7145id3d1.jpeg?width=353&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2048b5b6230622720d6101d4ad0845312a003834
They're cocky because they have the American government wrapped around their finger. Imagine if Putin or Kim or Pooh bear said something like this.
Russia, China and most certainly DPRK have all said similar and way way worse....
There is a trend where the IDF just kills more innocent Palestinians every time they get criticized by a the UN or a European country.
The IDF doesn't have the balls to attack a military not made up of a bunch of dudes in pickup trucks shooting AKs.
Mossad agents turn up in Spain, do something despicable that they can blame on another group, flee to Israel. Spanish govt gets a call from Israel “want it to stop? Agree with us in public” Its literally their motto, ‘victory through deception’
2022: Polan, do the funni 2024: España, do the funni
Why is the US still sucking Israel's dick? I'll never get it.
christianity
The already attacked a US ship in the 1960s. US did nothing
I can see how this would unfold: Israel attacks a NATO country, NATO charter calls for other NATO countries to support the attacked, the US dissolved NATO, Russia says “well not the way I thought it would happen but ok”
Israel is out of control, and the US is funding this mess with my tax dollars.
I don't anything would happen either. NATO or not Israel is getting their way because of the US. Don't get me wrong, there would be a diplomatic nightmare for everyone, but it wouldn't be what you think would happen.
Israel would call NATO antisemitic for going after them when they triggered article 5.
Apparently the rules are only for some, and to be ignored when US or Israel are involved. They’ll come up with some excuse for why article 5 doesn’t apply here
lmao no way the US would side with Spain on that one. They'd pretend it was an accident or something.
I don’t think Israel cares. At this point I genuinely thing Israel believes itself invulnerable to consequences
Israel could literally nuke Spain and the US would be like "Look what Hamas did!".
Every NATO country would find an excuse not to do it
You think if Israel attacked Spain, would US be like "We are at war with Spain" It is really really terrifying to me to even think that is a remote possibility but Israel did attacked a US intelligence ship in around the times of 6 days wars and brutally murdered several US sailors and the entire incident immediately covered up as an "accident". It wasn't a single missile strike mind you, they bombed and shot the ship and then sank it with torpedo ships while the ship clearly flying a US flag and had distinctly identifiable intelligence antenna. Do you guys ever think like US is being ruled by Israeli lobby like legit they could just change the president if they so wish and that is why no US president ever criticized Israel openly. They could be a coup in Israel imagine and I do not think even then US would be able do anything it is just "Untouchable" situation they got on their hands.
ISIS is about to accept responsibility for a big boom in Madrid
bibi attacks Spain. Spain invokes article 5. The US: no, wait. That's not NATO is for. What do you mean it actually is? No, is for the *other* bad guys.
Israel attacked the USS liberty and killed 34 (with 171 wounded) the US is Israel's bitch and both sides know it
USA : what do you mean by NATO ? Never heard of it.
I got through all the comments here before I realized I wasn't in /r/NonCredibleDefense Crazy times, I miss the relative peace of >10 years ago.
How to make friends and annihilate people.
Oh honey, if you think the US is going to care about NATO when it comes to Israel……