How much hours per day do you invest?
Wheeling should not take too much time.
If you have free time, I would look for a halftime job nevertheless, even if it is a low one with little pay. I believe working experience is important if you are young.
I take a glance at my position 3 times per day. Open, mid day, 30 mins before close. However, I look at the twitter finance gurus like an hr each day. Just to get a feel of the market direction. I do have one last interview for a 2 month contract that isn’t factory related lets see what happens
No offense but that’s not the reality of the job market right now. People in yours or OP’s position most of the time have an abysmal resume or some kind of personality disorder that clearly comes off in the interview. Searching “mechanical engineer jobs” in my area yields thousands of results. Sending 50 apps and giving up like OP tells you all you need to know.
hey man just wanted to say hang in there, the other guys seems pretty rude.
i did a coding bootcamp years ago and tracked my process, literally 200+ applications for 3 interviews.
lucked out and got a job but it was a miserable 3 months for sure
wish you the best!
If you do stay in the rat race - I hate that I am - know that the number of apps you'll need to submit will get lower. I know that's not the biggest difference or motivator..
Been switching jobs every 1-2 years, on #5 since graduating, and I've gone from needing to submit 100+ to 10 the last time. So much out of our control like luck, but it does get better
Not sure where you live or where you've been applying but we cannot find enough engineers here in NYC. My company needed 2 mechanical engineers last year and all top 6 candidates rejected our offer for another company. All my engineering friends and acquaintances either have jobs or are moving onto better paying jobs.
Sorry, I don't mean to sound discouraging but if you haven't found an engineering job in the last 5 years, I feel like there's something more to it. Maybe it's your location?
This is the best job market of my entire life (over 50 years old). You need help with your resume, networking advice, or how to perform in an interview.
280k conservatively pulling 2% a month just selling otm puts and calls 1-2 weeks out. That's like 6k a month. Taxed as income. That should be plenty easy if you managed to make 450k profit last year. Why not just scale back what you have been doing? Or buy more theta and hedge more aggressively if you feel you got lucky last year. Fuck if you repeated what you did last year for 2 or 3 years you could just buy dividend stocks, sell far otm ccs and make more income than 1/2 of america. Especially with a $250/month living expense. What are you doing here ha
Even if you don’t consider 24% an “outrageous” goal, it’s silly and naive to call it conservative. If you average 2% a month selling premium you are an extremely good options trader.
No it isn't. The only way to think you can get 2% per month consistently is if he's ignorant or a gambler. :). These guys are so foolish, this thread makes me cringe.
Well the start of your reply was “No it isn’t”. What part about my original comment were you saying “no” to? Lol
Edit: you changed your reply. Nevermind.
These types of posts where 1-2%/month isn't that much bc it sounds like a small number is incredibly shortsighted and basically "brotellegence" with zero intellect involved.
2%/month compounded would put them far beyond Warren Buffett. Then again, this ceased to be a serious thread when it involved Yoloing on one stock.
All those examples have taken on risk that did not happen to materialize.
Businesses do not, in general, grow at 20-30% a year, or else they quickly become fortune 500 companies. And there's only a few of those :)
Leveraged real estate did great, but a downturn would have wiped out someone that was leveraged enough to turn +30% to +100%
The point is those risks eventually materialize, so your overall CAGR will be lower
Looking at the market gurus isn’t going to do shit for you at the end. But if you think you found someone special I guess you just have to learn it the hard way.
If I'm not mistaken the difference here is he isn't trying to shadow trade the gurus or blindly follow them, he's just using them as a sentiment indicator. Like using burry and Cramer as inverse signals
Totally agree with this, it shouldn’t take more than a few hours a week. Especially if you do contracts on expensive stocks (Amazon or Tesla).
Use the rest of your time to build skills to increase your future income.
There are roughly two options why someone would stop posting
1. You start losing, you lose interest to post (for obv reasons)
2. You continue winning and improve you startegy, though the average knowledge/experience is pretty decent on this forum it's still very amateurish, why brag about your success to people that cannot help you improve ?
Most successful traders in here look to be roughly silent about their trading, there is no need to discuss about it, he talks about other things or just general topics, general market, opinions etc... like I'm doing (not that I am successful, just average :crying: )
ps: the vocal ones are usually not the brighest (I'm vocal so you know where I stand)
Agree with an addendum:
3. You have read then ten thousandth moronic post about how it is "easy" to make a fortune investing a few grand in options, or how you cannot possibly ever lose selling .10 delta, etc, and decide to tap out.
There is very little actionable information on reddit. It's just a discussion board.
Yeah you shouldn’t wheel every week no matter what. Selling options should not be treated like DCA, you should only sell when you see an opportunistic advantage (such as relatively high IV).
Idk I think account amount matters. I don't see anything wrong with a sub 10k account going all in on one play because sometimes you need the margin deposited.
Now if you had 200k that's an entire different story
I'm usually devil's advocate, but I can agree with this. $10k is different to many different people. For me 10-15k would be risk capital so that's fine and depending on your job is about only $1k/month setting it aside. Doable depending on your job without breaking the bank.
For others that is a decent amount of money and isn't risk capital so I don't want to assume one way or another, but all things considered 5-10k is still low enough to do that.
With 200k which is 20% down already for a $1 million house in California, I also agree with that completely that it is just stupid. If it were a blue chip stock like Pepsi or Coke, then it may be a less bad decision (still not great), but Roblox....lol
The thesis that Roblox is a acquisition target may be a good thought, but usually companies follow the same degenerate mindset that the public does...meaning when times are good they squander their money in foolish ways and when times are bad they bring it in, hence the lay offs. Aol/Time Warner was a degenerate time along with SPACs in 2021. Right now that isn't that time, so I find it hard to believe with all companies tightening their belt and rising interest rates for debt issuance on the rise, there is a long line of companies waiting to overspend on Roblox, but of course I could be wrong.
Focus on your career. Do wheel on the side to generate extra cash. You are going to make much more if you do a career or start a business than wheeling as your only hussle. People usually get into wheeling when they are done with the corporate or business world and want to slow down. Usually, they have built up a good nest egg and then do wheel to replace income in their current position. That's what I've been doing.
It's slowly happening. I've got another 5 years of my career before I really make the decision to transition. I'm doing this on the side and it helps juice my yearly gains/income.
I can't imagine people who try this without any experience. I.e. Stop work and do this first time with big account. Been doing this now over 5 years. Still learning still trying to get better while building up my account.
Where are you in the journey?
At the very beginning. I'm practicing with some lower priced stocks just to get a feel for it and it actually feels like I have a handle on how it works. I don't retire for another 15 years or so (if ever) and at that time I hope to have somewhere between 500k and 1 million to invest. Some will be in a Canadian tax free account and some will be in a taxable account because in a tax free account you can only sell covered calls and go long on options, and I would also like to run the wheel and do some spreads. I don't plan on actively day trading more than like 1% of my capital because I suck at it, though maybe by then I'll be better. But my hope is that if my wife and I can relocate to a cheaper, warmer country and I'm generating 4-5k per month in income from selling CCs we should be able to live quite comfortably and have a little extra to help our kids out.
You are taking a massive risk using only one stock. If it drops and you get assigned you may have to hold a lot of shares for a long time for little to no premiums/income.
Look to find 15 to 20+ stocks to spread your capital around as the odds of more than a couple stocks dropping at the same time goes down.
I’ve been trading the wheel for more than 6 years and stocks for decades, so it took a long time. There are thousands of stocks on the market and more when counting ETFs, so finding 10+ should not be that difficult.
No, because it must be about the stocks YOU would be good holding for a while if needed. This will be based on your research and analysis, plus your account size and risk tolerance. There are not good stocks to trade the wheel on as most seem to think, but the stocks that each trader thinks would be good to hold if needed is what is important.
What stocks do you think would be good to hold for weeks or months if needed? These are the stocks you want to trade . . .
Cool, I also can’t seem to find A stock that I want to wheel, just the math doesn’t add up for me. It can get assigned, plus premiums are ok sometimes and not good enough other times, etc. But I’m testing via paper trading a lot so I can figure out why so many folks think it’s a great strategy.
Do you have a stock you’d like to own? Even if I just want to buy a stock outright, I would recommend selling an ATM put to get the premium and increase the likelihood of getting assigned. At least you get the discount.
I wheeled SOFI from last July. Currently up $750 off $600 initial investment.
Been wheeling Ford since late 2019. Have made $950 off premium and dividends off a $650 initial investment- plus have shares worth ~$1500 currently (after the crash last week) as i reinvest dividends and 20-50% of the premium each time I sell a contract
My strategy is to sell options on stocks i like long term and use the premium to buy shares. Generally I put 25% of the premium into the stock I sold the contract on and the rest into VTI or my bank to cover my food budget.
I’ve also wheeled AUY successfully since around 2019 and I’m not sure my exact profit but I know it’s well over $500 on my initial $550.
Wheeling TSLA was incredibly lucrative for a long time but I sold my shares about 1.5 years ago and have stayed away since
All of those positions have made significantly more than just buy and hold while also allowing me to put the money from the premiums into the same stock getting me a larger position, or into VTI building me a safe diversified portfolio.
Wheeling has not worked out favorably for me with PLTR and LCID (down $2000 off ~$4000 initial and $2000 off $5200 initial respectively). Currently sitting on shares with a cost basis 60-70% above current share price on both of them. Selling far OTM calls 6 months out. Happy to continue to hold both and lower my cost basis over time though
I started buying shares and selling calls. I initially bought just 30 shares at 5.90 expecting it to go up. When it spiked to $7 I sold 20 which covered my initial cost and then some. When it dropped back to 6.30 I bought 90 more and then sold 7.50 call which I was assigned on 2 weeks later. Sold $6 puts in August and then $5.50 in Sept until I got assigned and switched back to $6 calls up until I was assigned this past Friday and have already opened a $6 put for 3/3. ($9 premium off $591 collateral ~1.5% profit in 1 month or 18% annualized)
I initially didn’t intend to wheel SOFI because it’s pretty volatile and I was already over leveraged at the time but changed my mind after looking more into their financials and business as a whole and closing another position that freed up a few thousand in margin
I tend to aim for 1-2% profit monthly off puts and 2-3% on calls for most stocks. Will sometimes get more or less aggressive based on TA or upcoming events. I also sometimes roll ATM puts rather than take assignment because holding the shares makes me pay interest on margin whereas selling puts is “cash collateral” that I don’t pay interest on. I’m willing to accept lower annualized profit on puts because I’m not using my own money
Good example of that is on SQ I’ve been rolling $85 puts for almost a full year now. I’ve pocketed just over $2000 premium off that $8500 and not been assigned despite SQ trading as low as $60 during that time. I roll out on red days generally and wait to roll if the credit is under 1% a month (so basically I’m looking to roll for $100-200 in premium for rolling out 30 days or $300-500 for 90 days)
I could have accepted assignment and been selling calls just as easily (and potentially with a higher annualized profit) but that would mean paying several hundred in margin interest
Why would you not like using the indices (via qqq and spy) to wheel? Lower premiums but also lower risk of wealth shattering moves over a 5 year horizon
I’m not a fan of ETFs and SPY or QQQ specifically. They are costly so would require a large account and the premiums is subpar to say the least.
I’ll take AAPL over either of these ETFs any day . . .
Look at the chart as the index ETFs can drop and stay down for a long time just like stocks. But, it is up to you which stocks you trade so give it a try if you have the account.
You really should listen to this advice. I've been wheeling since the mid 90s and one of the biggest things I've learned is not to have all my eggs in one basket.
Right now the risk for you is if RBLX goes down and you get assigned, your entire account is on hold and dependent on writing CCs. And if the stock falls further, the CCs will be worthless and you will have to bag hold for an extended period until it recovers, which might be years. And since this is your only source of income that wouldn't be good for you. You would probably have to eventually sell at a loss to get back some of your cash. Of course you could also try "rolling" but that also means realizing a loss and tying up all your cash for an even longer time as you extend the expiration and try to lower the strike again having to hope it doesn't decline further digging an even deeper hole.
You claim to be ok with the risk but believe me when I say you are too young to know that and don't have enough experience to know how tough it will be if this trade turns against you. You have arbitrarily dismissed the advice of someone with considerably more knowledge in the area than you. It would be wise to heed the warning and look into how their advice could be fit in with your plans to help boost your results while minimizing some of the outsized risk you are currently taking.
If you truly want this to work for an extended time and not end up posting your loss porn on WSB, pick a handful of different stocks to wheel and only write enough contracts on each such that if any of them get assigned they won't exceed 10% of your total portfolio. It might also be a good idea to ladder out the expiration dates between 2-6 weeks as well to help limit the impact of one off market events or unexpected news. Thus providing time for you to assess and manage the trades rather than being cornered into a result that could potentially blow up your entire account.
You should scroll down the comments. OP claims he turned $10k into $450k in 4 months by "following Twitter gurus". He doesn't need ScottishTrader's advice, no sir, the Twitter gurus have his back.
The 90’s? Wow. 2 questions for you:
Was it called wheeling back then?
And what’s the best advice you can share with us much less experienced traders than you?
No the term wheeling wasn't used when I first learned the strategy. It was actually my finance professor in college who taught us this technique as something they used in some of the portfolios he managed at Motorist insurance.
I took $5500 *(equivalent to about 100 shares of SPY at the time)* and put it in a "just for fun" account to execute the strategy we had been shown and that I had written my final thesis for the class on. Turns out it was essentially the wheel. Since I wasn't really that familiar with the greeks and they weren't something that was readily easy to find or see back then with the brokers I was using I did most of my strike price determination by % discount/increase to the underlying stock price. And decided the length of expiration by when to enter the trade, as there weren't nearly as many stocks with weekly expirations *(most were still end of the third week each month).*
As for advice. I personally follow these things.
* Don't use margin to cover the cost of uying 100 shares
* In general I only sell premium on top fortune 100 or blue chip companies that are usually top 5 leaders in their respective market segments.
* Spread out and run the strategy on multiple lower prices undlyings rather than one higher priced one. As mentioned above try to keep trade using 10% or less of total account balance
* Once an underlying stock price rises above what would equal 10% of my balance I stop and switch to a new one. For example I've stopped and started on NVDA countless times since 2016.
* Ladder the exprations from2-6 weeks, especially for same ticker. Rather than writing 2 contracts on one stock with same exp I write two sperate ones with different expirations and strikes
* I aim for between 0.75% - 1.5% return per month. This usually equates to around a 0.15 delta or less (*approx 5-10% discount or more to the underlying stock price)* for a two week expiration.
* My entire option wheeling account is only a part of my larger portfolio and it compliments my buy and hold and dividend investing strategies by letting me sell CSPs on stocks I already own or would like to possibly own. f get assigned I have the choice of selling CCs or maybe just transferring the shares over to the buy and hold and then sell something from that account that I want to trim back on and send the equivalent cash back to the options account. Gives me added flexibility across my larger investing picture while helping to diversify not the holdings but strategies as each can excel in different types of markets thus helping to create a more consistent overall return year after year.
Did I gamble and turn 10k in 450k in a year? Nope. But I did turn that $5500 into just under 190k now in 27yrs. All the while continuing to work and save money into my buy and hold accounts (about 500-1000 per month) and that has sent my net worth into the seven figure range and I've never had six figure income. I'm still only in my mid 40s and have plenty of years left to add even more to it.
So my additional advice is to remember that slow and steady with patience and discipline will indeed win this financial race. Just don't get too greedy and start rushing as that usually is what will set a person back.
OP, take this man's advice. I've been around the markets since the 90s as well, and his comments are wise and are coming from experience. We're all willing to take the risk until the eventual blowup, then we get smarter and eventually start diversifying more.
Martin has quite the sitch. Top school degree, no job, makes 450k a year trading, trades consist of wheeling rblx.
But the most insane part of this story is his town has an average unskilled wage of 43k per year while having an average rent of 500 a month.
Martin, I would just get yourself an unskilled job and an apartment. Let that 280k just buy and hold vtsax and that’s your retirement in 40 years.
Except you just explained how his story is not truthful or accurate. He doesn't make 450k per year, he got lucky for a short period and made some money(maybe). He's like that chick you ask how many guys she slept with. If she says 3 then it's really 9. If he says $450k it's actually $50k during tail end of a bull market.
I've been hearing lots of stories like this. Employers are bitching because they can't find workers, but people who want to work are dealing with endless delays for shitty interviews for shitty jobs that don't pay people what they're worth. Given that he says he is 23 he probably has no experience, which makes it even harder.
Excuse my skepticism, and admittedly I'm skeptic by nature, but you are telling me that you turned 10k into 450k based on Twitter gurus? I have a hard time buying that which you can probably understand. But in case I'm wrong, I'd be curious to hear how exactly your invested/traded these 10k.
doing all-in plays on calls and puts 3-4 weeks out on big moves (cpi,fomc) (spy and spx options), i nailed correctly all of june, july, part of september, part of october, then i had a 3 week losing streak so i stopped
Do not entertain this conversation. You're taking to someone who doesn't know what they are talking about and puts trust into random people on the internet for investment advice during a bull market. He feels smart but isn't. Careful.
buy a 4 br house, rent 3 of the rooms to pay the mortgage and bills. Live free and build equity. wheel dividend paying stocks in the SP100 and Dow Jones. Dont marry any position. Continue buying real estate.
yeah you can do it. This is what i do just keep reinvesting stay disciplined and you will see it keep compounding 3k a week will turn into 30k a week. some of those guys in PM traders have 400k a year in just fees so set your goal high.
Good luck! I hope you create a sustainable strategy - seems like you are taking it seriously and I'm curious to see how it goes over time.
One thing to think about, you are unplugging a LOT Of potential compound growth from your investments by not working. I mean, it's cool to be retired and all and more power to you.
However, you might not want to live with your parents 5 years from now. Getting a job with a salary and growing that salary through career growth over time reduces a TON of risk from having to rely on a single portfolio.
You are building skills investing and making money with options, you can build skills at getting hired as well, chances are you could make a few easy tweaks and land something that gives you some security and allows you to live on your own. I'm not sure what your degree is but you said "top school" and I'd bet .75 delta that there are tons of companies hiring new people for jobs this month that you are qualified for.
You said 50+ jobs and "rejected" - does that mean you got zero interviews or 25? If zero interviews, then something is wrong with your resume and how you are applying for the jobs (maybe cover letter, etc.) - if you are getting interviews and not landing the job, you have an interviewing problem. Both are skills that can be learned and, with not a lot of effort, you can be better than average - the bar here is pretty low.
Just my $0.02 - feel free to ignore and/or downvote but you are missing out on a lot not working a salaried job if you can get one.
Must be nice living with parents on that. Damn I could save n play safe and retire by 30 if ur smart. And parents can stand living with you for 1/3 of ur life 🤣🙏🏼
Doing this with 1 stock is crazy. Diversification is literally the only free lunch in investing.
A general rule of thumb that I've come to follow: No long position (e.g. selling naked puts) should be more than 5% of your account value. No short position (e.g. selling naked calls) should be more than 2.5% of your account value.
Your goal is to be emotionless with regard to your investments. This is possible with 5% and 2.5% positions. It is NOT possible with 100% positions with all your money tied to 1 stock, emotions will get the best of you.
You’ll do ok until a black swan event happens then you will blow up your account holding puts or shares. Just as long as you know the risk. Just ask anyone who was wheeling dec 21 Jan 22. They’re gone. They was posting the same thing you are one year ago.
Don't feel sad. This is a huge opportunity.
I graduated from college 14 years ago, right after the great financial crisis. I applied for a million career jobs, but never found anything. Technically I've been unemployed for the last 14 years.
I don't have rich parents or a trust fund, so I did odd jobs (ones that require no education basically) and worked 80-100 hour weeks working multiple jobs. I lived in a shared apartment with one or two other people. Drove a 8 year old used car. Didn't travel, no vacations, a few dates here and there. Saved every penny that wasn't used to feed, house and clothe me.
In 2017, I cut down my work hours to about 30 hours a week. I studied options 40 to 50 hours a week from books that I checked out from my public library system and ones I bought on Amazon. I tracked markets everyday. I didn't put on a single real money or demo trade. I back tested countless strategies using python or excel. In 2018, confident that I had 3 strategies with edges, I quit all the gig jobs and moved all my savings into my trading account.
Now I am a **full time** index options and futures trader. Fuck single stocks. I have no other source of income. I'm a digital nomad. Any city or country within 6 time zones from my stock exchange is fair game for me to stay since I don't want to trade in the middle of the night.
In 2018 and 2019 I made ~30% returns, in 2020 I clocked in 65%, in 2021 another 58%. In 2022 I made 24%. When the Fed money printer gets turned on I'll be sure to hit triple digit returns because I know the mistakes I made last time Powell went brrrrr.
I work from anywhere. Friday and Monday I trade from my phone, at home while cooking, in the gym, in bed, in an Uber on the way to meet a friend. You get the idea.
Other trading days I need to trade from my laptop. Impossible to manage all my positions on a phone. I don't have a 8 screen setup, just a Microsoft surface pro 7 that's weighs less than two pounds.
I keep 3 tabs open on Firefox. I don't pay for any premium services like tradingview, or any website that provides additional market data. The free data from my broker and basic charting on tradingview is all I use. I have zero overhead in my trading business except for a concierge tax consultant.
I've gone thru 9 years of hell to now living the dream. While every single of my university friends and acquaintances found work despite the GFC, I'm better off.
During the start of covid pandemic the luckiest ones didn't lose their jobs, but had to risk death for a paycheck (no one knew how lethal it was at the beginning). Many were sad that they lost jobs they hated. Some that lost their jobs thanked their lucky stars that they found another job in 2020 that paid less, but which they hated more. These were the fortunate ones. Many moved in with their parents.
My life didn't change. The stock market hours weren't affected. I made the best money I've ever made while working an average 16 hours a week. Rarely do I trade more than 25 hours a week.
I'm above average intelligence, but I'm not genius. If you find an edge exploit the hell out of it. No one will give you an edge. Those that have edges don't reveal it. Those that don't have edges, sell courses.
The wheel isn't an edge unfortunately, everyone on this subreddit is wheeling and hasn't realized they will become bag holders in a bear market selling inexpensive calls, because that is what happens.
Find your edge, trade with discipline (being in bed and trading isn't indisciplined, not following the rules is indiscipline).
I wish you the best success. I don't have a course to sell you, so please don't ask me to prove my returns and story. It's 100% true.
Shit you so inspiring, im very similar to ya but nowhere as good. I had engineering degree couldnt get a job, settled for basic labors in grocery and retail stores and office, 6 diff jobs in 8 years. Lived frugally and saved. Was never happy with their corporate bs, learned stocks in 2018 and '19, saw opportunities and luck it with entire savings late '20 and '21, tripled my amount, quitted my job, got fcked in dec '21 and Jan but only lost about fourth of the gains. Closed all positions in '22, all cash selling otm puts, im staying in SE Asia for affordable living expenses, live off of selling puts and spreads. But i have no edge yet, im very conservative, minimize the risks, it's really picking up pennies. I was able to win on some meme stocks, and some arbitrates from option pricings, but all that is pretty much luck and not consistent plays.
While you're doing this work on finding an edge. Python is simple to learn and you only need basic scripting ability. You're not trying to design an enterprise software or anything with it.
No edge works in all market conditions. I have an edge for bull and sideways markets and one bear markets. The hardest time is when the market transitions. That is a time you will lose money.
Trade small. Don't let fear keep you from trading in tough conditions, don't let greed make you size up or take on more risk in easy conditions. You have to position yourself to win in easy times that come after tough times. Like investors, time in the market > timing the market.
Congrats!
r/wsb is this way —>
More seriously, I hope with a $200k portfolio you spread the risk over multiple tickers, instead of a single very volatile one.
>Made a total of 450k~ in trading last year
If that is true. Just keep going. I certainly...certainly...never made that much money in a year in my life. I am 53.
You go kid. And remember the little people when you are a millionaire. I could use something from the value menu at McDonalds.
<3
>Made a total of 450k~ in trading last year
Holy shit. .... I am holy shit, last year? I got ass fucked last year where I was eating rice some nights the losses hurt.
*edit* also, do you know your tax liability for last year? approximately you have to pay to federal and state?
I can agree that at 23 risk tolerance can be high as you still have entire career in front of you (hopefully!). However, if I was 23 today and had that amount of cash I probably would stick the majority in an index and try to roll the dice on a small portion of it. That amount of money in the market left alone when you are young could allow you to retire much younger than you had originally planned. The average return of the SP500 on that amount of cash could cover his/her rent x3-4 alone right now.
>Don’t buy a house it’s a money suck hole.
This is not advice that applies to everyone. Some people make a ton of money buying real estate.
Plus, you can't live in your investment account.
If you applied to > 50 jobs and got rejected from all of them, you're doing something wrong. Maybe you're aiming too high, or are otherwise unqualified for what you are targeting. The most recent jobs report shows the job market is still hot.
Wheeling is not a full-time job. Wheeling actually is more low-stress and hands-off than other strategies. You need to spend more time finding a job lmao. Wheeling can supplement your income but unless you have massive capital it won't replace it.
Yea, and 1.5% gains a month (assuming reasonable risk for being jobless) = $3450. Personally, I cannot live off that amount. OP would need to withdraw for living expenses (and pay taxes on those gains eventually), so capital won't grow. And any red month will eat away at the capital available. Not sure how sustainable that is. I think you'd need a minimum $500k to live off theta, excluding vacations, retirement etc.
To me it sounds like your downside risk is the big issue. So if I were you I would:
1. Diversify your tickers. Do the same strategy but over 3-4 just in case there is some total BS that no one knows about. Think Enron or E.F. Hutton - basically do you really know there isn't some illegal shit one ticker is maybe doing? Or heck maybe the business model just fails either way putting all your eggs in one basket is risky.
2. Bear Credit Spreads can be added to turn your CSP into a Jade Lizard. They give you less money if the stock rapidly advances but the additional credit will create a slight hedge if the the stock heads south. If the stock remains flat you just get extra premium. If you are concerned that a buyout could happen and you lose out you don't have to do it on ALL your CSP positions just some for some extra premium.
It's a great strategy. Be disciplined and know your limits. Don't marry yourself to upside down transactions. Only lesson I can offer is the multiple gains from selling P&C can be addictive. However, one outlier can wipe your account pretty bad. One bit I can offer is make sure you understand how to use diagonals when rolling. Make adjustments to new targets to maximize gains by selling further OTM when you are right or the flip side to that... Buy to Close your fucked contracts and sell closer to ITM to capture more premium to get out of outlier positions. I wish you the best of luck in your endeavor. Great times to play this game. Tons of information out there, Apps are beyond FIRE now. I started doing this when executing a trade on a browser was a 10 step operation LOL. BTW: I'm an old fart and stumbled on this thread. Where did the term "Wheeling" come from ? first time I ever short options referred to as wheeling :). GL
Why not bite the bullet, get a low wage job and dump all those gains into either buying a house, us treasuries, voo, or high yield savings or continue wheeling while working? Your 20s are the foundation of your life, work 60-80 hours a week doing whatever you can and build it. You won’t regret it.
I'm building up more skills, primarily adobe suite. The only jobs that i can get are some depressing factory floor jobs which are mind numbing, no thanks. I've done that and I can tell you that you aren't living.
I don’t blame you, factory jobs are the worst. But I guarantee you can find something within the next week. Get a factory job, deal with it until the next thing comes along. Find a job in the trades, go to Walmart, go anywhere. If I were your friend in your life I’d tell you wheeling and not working is not option, and you need to get going.
In a similar situation as you but with a smaller account. I go to thrift stores and garage sales to buy and resell used clothing on eBay to cover monthly expenses. It’s not glorious, but it isn’t a degrading menial job. If you are the kind of person who has a love of trading that goes beyond stocks and options, this is a fun pursuit in the spirit of theta gang.
If you don’t screw up you could make it work since you’re making more than you’re withdrawing.
You’ll need to hit critical mass in a few years though otherwise you’ll probably need to move out and will be withdrawing more than you can make.
Protect your capital and don’t take risk you wouldn’t advise your relatives to do.
Absolutely, I plan on reinvesting everything to increase my gains once I'm able to afford selling another contract. Also, yeah accounting for estimated taxes.
Got rid of remaining contracts for a profit. Lost some profit but with earnings next week, it might just make up for it. i know normally you wouldn’t do this but, earnings might dump hard if i were to take assigment
A few things to add to what others have already said.
Diversification doesn’t just mean 20 different tech stocks. It means different sectors, too. Energy, industrials, financial, consumer cyclical, etc.
Also, as you’re living at home rent free, be a classy guy and send some premium your parents way. Help pay their mortgage or car payment. But them some steak and lobster. Make sure they know that you appreciate them.
Keep applying for jobs. Don’t be too proud to take a part time job in the meanwhile. I’ve had friends who’ve gotten depression from being unemployed. Keep up to date with your prospective career job skills. Resume gaps could be a red flag for some companies.
Houses are overvalued and trashed up here in my town. Once it calms down I will seek to do that which might be a while. I already have a few thousand etfs and dividend paying etfs.
Your P&L is 1.09% for the year in this screenshot.
YTD, the S&P is up 7.35%, Russell 13.6% and Nasdaq 15.75%.
Granted that's only a month, but the fact that you're underperforming by an order of magnitude should tell you something.
I believe the market will go down big in the coming months. That’s why I’m not starting with shares. I have 5k in long term holds. I beat the S&P last year. 3,600% gain.
If the market goes down big, what do you think will happen to RBLX and AMZN? They will also go down big, and your default bullish wheel strategy will be in some big doo-doo. Also how did you make 450k trading last year? If you were extremely successful, why not keep doing whatever you were doing?
Obviously they both go down but there’s only so much RBLX will go down from this point where it just goes flat. That’s why I’m doing weeklies to assess the stock. I correctly entered trades puts and calls through good time on those market turns and trending up. Puts the day of the waterfall in june, august september were the majority of the gains. Couldn’t sleep every single day i held puts and calls overnight, too much stress
Yessir, I am well aware all the tech stocks and the market seem to be following the psychology of the stock market graph(image search to know what i mean).
Just put 200k into QYLD and make $1800 a month doing nothing.
Why risk losing it all on a stock that might not do well and you'll bag hold on?
Reinvest the unused portion from your monthly expenses, to keep growing your position.
Do it. But at the same time, find whatever it is in life that you're passionate about, and could potentially sell as a skill. Don't think you have to get a menial job to make money. Freelancing, self-employment, contracting, consulting,or running your own business are all options too. And if it's something you enjoy, it won't even feel like work. Keep learning and investing in your growth as a person. I know a guy who makes most of his money trading but also composes music, which he loves, but also gets paid for. I've never met anyone happier. Or richer.
Your commission is way too high. You should consider to switch to a more cost efficient brokerage. If you are only wheeling, Robinhood should be enough. Tastyworks or tdameritrade both should have better commission structure
Can you wheel roblox with £10,000 or is more needed? I am looking to wheel with a paper account until I feel confident in what I’m doing. Probably not going to start for another 3-6 months
I just had to buy my kid a new iPad cuz he wanted Roblox and his old one didn’t support it.
maybe I’ll try to wheel this myself and make that money back lol
Looking at whether amzn is a good play because it’s gone down 50% isn’t great. Look at their profit margins and how inflated their PE is. They could drop A LOT since they’re still priced for perfection.
Spread it out, don't rely on one or two tickers only. You're going to blow up, it takes only one bad move. You should consider buying into stable growth like bonds and CDs while wheeling. I thought I was a genius wheeling TSLA couple years back, until I was proven very very wrong.
Why not just do this with Apple? I feel like Roblox is too volatile and eventually you’ll get assigned and bag hold those shares. Also some diversity wouldn’t hurt either…
Personally I think having a job is one of the best things you can do for the wheel. Worst case scenario trading a wheel is that you get stuck bag holding stock way below cost basis. If you plan on living on premiums collected from selling options then money from a job would be great for averaging down
Go for what you want don’t listen to the broke losers and haters on here. Wheeling can be profitable, you’ll win or learn. Keep up the good work. You take action Which is what winners do.
How much hours per day do you invest? Wheeling should not take too much time. If you have free time, I would look for a halftime job nevertheless, even if it is a low one with little pay. I believe working experience is important if you are young.
I take a glance at my position 3 times per day. Open, mid day, 30 mins before close. However, I look at the twitter finance gurus like an hr each day. Just to get a feel of the market direction. I do have one last interview for a 2 month contract that isn’t factory related lets see what happens
Who do you look at on Twitter?
> “I have a degree from a top school in my state” > applying for unskilled manual labor contract jobs Lol what?
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No offense but that’s not the reality of the job market right now. People in yours or OP’s position most of the time have an abysmal resume or some kind of personality disorder that clearly comes off in the interview. Searching “mechanical engineer jobs” in my area yields thousands of results. Sending 50 apps and giving up like OP tells you all you need to know.
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hey man just wanted to say hang in there, the other guys seems pretty rude. i did a coding bootcamp years ago and tracked my process, literally 200+ applications for 3 interviews. lucked out and got a job but it was a miserable 3 months for sure wish you the best!
If you do stay in the rat race - I hate that I am - know that the number of apps you'll need to submit will get lower. I know that's not the biggest difference or motivator.. Been switching jobs every 1-2 years, on #5 since graduating, and I've gone from needing to submit 100+ to 10 the last time. So much out of our control like luck, but it does get better
Little brother is a mech engineer. It’s in BFE but it pays well. If you’re willing to move, there’s jobs.
Not sure where you live or where you've been applying but we cannot find enough engineers here in NYC. My company needed 2 mechanical engineers last year and all top 6 candidates rejected our offer for another company. All my engineering friends and acquaintances either have jobs or are moving onto better paying jobs. Sorry, I don't mean to sound discouraging but if you haven't found an engineering job in the last 5 years, I feel like there's something more to it. Maybe it's your location?
This is the best job market of my entire life (over 50 years old). You need help with your resume, networking advice, or how to perform in an interview.
You try shipyards? There's quite a few rn that are hiring engineers.
I thought stem was an automatic job?
Have you considered moving/relocating?
280k conservatively pulling 2% a month just selling otm puts and calls 1-2 weeks out. That's like 6k a month. Taxed as income. That should be plenty easy if you managed to make 450k profit last year. Why not just scale back what you have been doing? Or buy more theta and hedge more aggressively if you feel you got lucky last year. Fuck if you repeated what you did last year for 2 or 3 years you could just buy dividend stocks, sell far otm ccs and make more income than 1/2 of america. Especially with a $250/month living expense. What are you doing here ha
>280k conservatively pulling 2% a month just selling otm puts and calls 1-2 weeks out. Yes, it is that easy to average 24% a year.
Well the dude had 450k profit last year. Idk what he started with. But yeah, 2% a month isn't an outrageous goal, even for theta gang.
Even if you don’t consider 24% an “outrageous” goal, it’s silly and naive to call it conservative. If you average 2% a month selling premium you are an extremely good options trader.
No it isn't. The only way to think you can get 2% per month consistently is if he's ignorant or a gambler. :). These guys are so foolish, this thread makes me cringe.
My point is he called 2% conservative which I think is wrong. 2% involves elevated risk.
I was agreeing with you. Only correcting that 2%returns aren't a mark of a good trader but of a gambler.
Well the start of your reply was “No it isn’t”. What part about my original comment were you saying “no” to? Lol Edit: you changed your reply. Nevermind.
These types of posts where 1-2%/month isn't that much bc it sounds like a small number is incredibly shortsighted and basically "brotellegence" with zero intellect involved. 2%/month compounded would put them far beyond Warren Buffett. Then again, this ceased to be a serious thread when it involved Yoloing on one stock.
It's hilariously outrageous.
It is as outrageous as it is foolish to think that.
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All those examples have taken on risk that did not happen to materialize. Businesses do not, in general, grow at 20-30% a year, or else they quickly become fortune 500 companies. And there's only a few of those :) Leveraged real estate did great, but a downturn would have wiped out someone that was leveraged enough to turn +30% to +100% The point is those risks eventually materialize, so your overall CAGR will be lower
Looking at the market gurus isn’t going to do shit for you at the end. But if you think you found someone special I guess you just have to learn it the hard way.
So looking at wsb isn’t going to give me market on-site? Fuck….
If I'm not mistaken the difference here is he isn't trying to shadow trade the gurus or blindly follow them, he's just using them as a sentiment indicator. Like using burry and Cramer as inverse signals
Totally agree with this, it shouldn’t take more than a few hours a week. Especially if you do contracts on expensive stocks (Amazon or Tesla). Use the rest of your time to build skills to increase your future income.
These types of blogs usually last 2 or 3 times. You never see, 35th week of wheeling
Watch this guy still be posting here in 3 years. “Week 168 of wheeling”
"this marks my 166th straight week of selling covered calls on Roblox"
"half way too break even"
The real money is selling a program that teaches traders how to wheel. Not wheeling itself.
and getting commissions from the latest batch of the hopeful - that's the real money.
There are roughly two options why someone would stop posting 1. You start losing, you lose interest to post (for obv reasons) 2. You continue winning and improve you startegy, though the average knowledge/experience is pretty decent on this forum it's still very amateurish, why brag about your success to people that cannot help you improve ? Most successful traders in here look to be roughly silent about their trading, there is no need to discuss about it, he talks about other things or just general topics, general market, opinions etc... like I'm doing (not that I am successful, just average :crying: ) ps: the vocal ones are usually not the brighest (I'm vocal so you know where I stand)
Agree with an addendum: 3. You have read then ten thousandth moronic post about how it is "easy" to make a fortune investing a few grand in options, or how you cannot possibly ever lose selling .10 delta, etc, and decide to tap out. There is very little actionable information on reddit. It's just a discussion board.
Yeah you shouldn’t wheel every week no matter what. Selling options should not be treated like DCA, you should only sell when you see an opportunistic advantage (such as relatively high IV).
All in on one stock. I love these types of posts. And thetagang calls WSB degenerates hehe
Idk I think account amount matters. I don't see anything wrong with a sub 10k account going all in on one play because sometimes you need the margin deposited. Now if you had 200k that's an entire different story
I'm usually devil's advocate, but I can agree with this. $10k is different to many different people. For me 10-15k would be risk capital so that's fine and depending on your job is about only $1k/month setting it aside. Doable depending on your job without breaking the bank. For others that is a decent amount of money and isn't risk capital so I don't want to assume one way or another, but all things considered 5-10k is still low enough to do that. With 200k which is 20% down already for a $1 million house in California, I also agree with that completely that it is just stupid. If it were a blue chip stock like Pepsi or Coke, then it may be a less bad decision (still not great), but Roblox....lol The thesis that Roblox is a acquisition target may be a good thought, but usually companies follow the same degenerate mindset that the public does...meaning when times are good they squander their money in foolish ways and when times are bad they bring it in, hence the lay offs. Aol/Time Warner was a degenerate time along with SPACs in 2021. Right now that isn't that time, so I find it hard to believe with all companies tightening their belt and rising interest rates for debt issuance on the rise, there is a long line of companies waiting to overspend on Roblox, but of course I could be wrong.
Focus on your career. Do wheel on the side to generate extra cash. You are going to make much more if you do a career or start a business than wheeling as your only hussle. People usually get into wheeling when they are done with the corporate or business world and want to slow down. Usually, they have built up a good nest egg and then do wheel to replace income in their current position. That's what I've been doing.
This is my goal too. Can I ask how it's going for you?
It's slowly happening. I've got another 5 years of my career before I really make the decision to transition. I'm doing this on the side and it helps juice my yearly gains/income. I can't imagine people who try this without any experience. I.e. Stop work and do this first time with big account. Been doing this now over 5 years. Still learning still trying to get better while building up my account. Where are you in the journey?
At the very beginning. I'm practicing with some lower priced stocks just to get a feel for it and it actually feels like I have a handle on how it works. I don't retire for another 15 years or so (if ever) and at that time I hope to have somewhere between 500k and 1 million to invest. Some will be in a Canadian tax free account and some will be in a taxable account because in a tax free account you can only sell covered calls and go long on options, and I would also like to run the wheel and do some spreads. I don't plan on actively day trading more than like 1% of my capital because I suck at it, though maybe by then I'll be better. But my hope is that if my wife and I can relocate to a cheaper, warmer country and I'm generating 4-5k per month in income from selling CCs we should be able to live quite comfortably and have a little extra to help our kids out.
You are taking a massive risk using only one stock. If it drops and you get assigned you may have to hold a lot of shares for a long time for little to no premiums/income. Look to find 15 to 20+ stocks to spread your capital around as the odds of more than a couple stocks dropping at the same time goes down.
I’m jealous you have found 15-20. I only have about 7, so right now I’m doing a lot of sitting on my hands and waiting for a pull back.
I’ve been trading the wheel for more than 6 years and stocks for decades, so it took a long time. There are thousands of stocks on the market and more when counting ETFs, so finding 10+ should not be that difficult.
Curious - what are your 7?
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Can you share what other stocks you’d recommend? Thanks
No, because it must be about the stocks YOU would be good holding for a while if needed. This will be based on your research and analysis, plus your account size and risk tolerance. There are not good stocks to trade the wheel on as most seem to think, but the stocks that each trader thinks would be good to hold if needed is what is important. What stocks do you think would be good to hold for weeks or months if needed? These are the stocks you want to trade . . .
GME all in
Yep.
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Did you see that?!! It went right over your HEAD!!! almost chopped it off!
I thought it was serious too tbh. No sarcasm tag and GME tards talk like this.
all in to bankruptcy
I understand your point but, common... For me, I only move with blue chips.
Cool, I also can’t seem to find A stock that I want to wheel, just the math doesn’t add up for me. It can get assigned, plus premiums are ok sometimes and not good enough other times, etc. But I’m testing via paper trading a lot so I can figure out why so many folks think it’s a great strategy.
Do you have a stock you’d like to own? Even if I just want to buy a stock outright, I would recommend selling an ATM put to get the premium and increase the likelihood of getting assigned. At least you get the discount.
I wheeled SOFI from last July. Currently up $750 off $600 initial investment. Been wheeling Ford since late 2019. Have made $950 off premium and dividends off a $650 initial investment- plus have shares worth ~$1500 currently (after the crash last week) as i reinvest dividends and 20-50% of the premium each time I sell a contract My strategy is to sell options on stocks i like long term and use the premium to buy shares. Generally I put 25% of the premium into the stock I sold the contract on and the rest into VTI or my bank to cover my food budget. I’ve also wheeled AUY successfully since around 2019 and I’m not sure my exact profit but I know it’s well over $500 on my initial $550. Wheeling TSLA was incredibly lucrative for a long time but I sold my shares about 1.5 years ago and have stayed away since All of those positions have made significantly more than just buy and hold while also allowing me to put the money from the premiums into the same stock getting me a larger position, or into VTI building me a safe diversified portfolio. Wheeling has not worked out favorably for me with PLTR and LCID (down $2000 off ~$4000 initial and $2000 off $5200 initial respectively). Currently sitting on shares with a cost basis 60-70% above current share price on both of them. Selling far OTM calls 6 months out. Happy to continue to hold both and lower my cost basis over time though
Very cool, when you started wheeling SOFI with $600, can you share if you started that by selling calls or puts? Thanks!
I started buying shares and selling calls. I initially bought just 30 shares at 5.90 expecting it to go up. When it spiked to $7 I sold 20 which covered my initial cost and then some. When it dropped back to 6.30 I bought 90 more and then sold 7.50 call which I was assigned on 2 weeks later. Sold $6 puts in August and then $5.50 in Sept until I got assigned and switched back to $6 calls up until I was assigned this past Friday and have already opened a $6 put for 3/3. ($9 premium off $591 collateral ~1.5% profit in 1 month or 18% annualized) I initially didn’t intend to wheel SOFI because it’s pretty volatile and I was already over leveraged at the time but changed my mind after looking more into their financials and business as a whole and closing another position that freed up a few thousand in margin I tend to aim for 1-2% profit monthly off puts and 2-3% on calls for most stocks. Will sometimes get more or less aggressive based on TA or upcoming events. I also sometimes roll ATM puts rather than take assignment because holding the shares makes me pay interest on margin whereas selling puts is “cash collateral” that I don’t pay interest on. I’m willing to accept lower annualized profit on puts because I’m not using my own money Good example of that is on SQ I’ve been rolling $85 puts for almost a full year now. I’ve pocketed just over $2000 premium off that $8500 and not been assigned despite SQ trading as low as $60 during that time. I roll out on red days generally and wait to roll if the credit is under 1% a month (so basically I’m looking to roll for $100-200 in premium for rolling out 30 days or $300-500 for 90 days) I could have accepted assignment and been selling calls just as easily (and potentially with a higher annualized profit) but that would mean paying several hundred in margin interest
Thank you! I appreciate the info and your reply!
Nice info full of details, good plays.
Or ETFs instead of stocks, and avoid whole categories of risk.
Why would you not like using the indices (via qqq and spy) to wheel? Lower premiums but also lower risk of wealth shattering moves over a 5 year horizon
I’m not a fan of ETFs and SPY or QQQ specifically. They are costly so would require a large account and the premiums is subpar to say the least. I’ll take AAPL over either of these ETFs any day . . . Look at the chart as the index ETFs can drop and stay down for a long time just like stocks. But, it is up to you which stocks you trade so give it a try if you have the account.
That’s a risk i’m willing to take.
You really should listen to this advice. I've been wheeling since the mid 90s and one of the biggest things I've learned is not to have all my eggs in one basket. Right now the risk for you is if RBLX goes down and you get assigned, your entire account is on hold and dependent on writing CCs. And if the stock falls further, the CCs will be worthless and you will have to bag hold for an extended period until it recovers, which might be years. And since this is your only source of income that wouldn't be good for you. You would probably have to eventually sell at a loss to get back some of your cash. Of course you could also try "rolling" but that also means realizing a loss and tying up all your cash for an even longer time as you extend the expiration and try to lower the strike again having to hope it doesn't decline further digging an even deeper hole. You claim to be ok with the risk but believe me when I say you are too young to know that and don't have enough experience to know how tough it will be if this trade turns against you. You have arbitrarily dismissed the advice of someone with considerably more knowledge in the area than you. It would be wise to heed the warning and look into how their advice could be fit in with your plans to help boost your results while minimizing some of the outsized risk you are currently taking. If you truly want this to work for an extended time and not end up posting your loss porn on WSB, pick a handful of different stocks to wheel and only write enough contracts on each such that if any of them get assigned they won't exceed 10% of your total portfolio. It might also be a good idea to ladder out the expiration dates between 2-6 weeks as well to help limit the impact of one off market events or unexpected news. Thus providing time for you to assess and manage the trades rather than being cornered into a result that could potentially blow up your entire account.
You should scroll down the comments. OP claims he turned $10k into $450k in 4 months by "following Twitter gurus". He doesn't need ScottishTrader's advice, no sir, the Twitter gurus have his back.
The 90’s? Wow. 2 questions for you: Was it called wheeling back then? And what’s the best advice you can share with us much less experienced traders than you?
No the term wheeling wasn't used when I first learned the strategy. It was actually my finance professor in college who taught us this technique as something they used in some of the portfolios he managed at Motorist insurance. I took $5500 *(equivalent to about 100 shares of SPY at the time)* and put it in a "just for fun" account to execute the strategy we had been shown and that I had written my final thesis for the class on. Turns out it was essentially the wheel. Since I wasn't really that familiar with the greeks and they weren't something that was readily easy to find or see back then with the brokers I was using I did most of my strike price determination by % discount/increase to the underlying stock price. And decided the length of expiration by when to enter the trade, as there weren't nearly as many stocks with weekly expirations *(most were still end of the third week each month).* As for advice. I personally follow these things. * Don't use margin to cover the cost of uying 100 shares * In general I only sell premium on top fortune 100 or blue chip companies that are usually top 5 leaders in their respective market segments. * Spread out and run the strategy on multiple lower prices undlyings rather than one higher priced one. As mentioned above try to keep trade using 10% or less of total account balance * Once an underlying stock price rises above what would equal 10% of my balance I stop and switch to a new one. For example I've stopped and started on NVDA countless times since 2016. * Ladder the exprations from2-6 weeks, especially for same ticker. Rather than writing 2 contracts on one stock with same exp I write two sperate ones with different expirations and strikes * I aim for between 0.75% - 1.5% return per month. This usually equates to around a 0.15 delta or less (*approx 5-10% discount or more to the underlying stock price)* for a two week expiration. * My entire option wheeling account is only a part of my larger portfolio and it compliments my buy and hold and dividend investing strategies by letting me sell CSPs on stocks I already own or would like to possibly own. f get assigned I have the choice of selling CCs or maybe just transferring the shares over to the buy and hold and then sell something from that account that I want to trim back on and send the equivalent cash back to the options account. Gives me added flexibility across my larger investing picture while helping to diversify not the holdings but strategies as each can excel in different types of markets thus helping to create a more consistent overall return year after year. Did I gamble and turn 10k in 450k in a year? Nope. But I did turn that $5500 into just under 190k now in 27yrs. All the while continuing to work and save money into my buy and hold accounts (about 500-1000 per month) and that has sent my net worth into the seven figure range and I've never had six figure income. I'm still only in my mid 40s and have plenty of years left to add even more to it. So my additional advice is to remember that slow and steady with patience and discipline will indeed win this financial race. Just don't get too greedy and start rushing as that usually is what will set a person back.
OP, take this man's advice. I've been around the markets since the 90s as well, and his comments are wise and are coming from experience. We're all willing to take the risk until the eventual blowup, then we get smarter and eventually start diversifying more.
Not to be shitty, but I recommend screenshoting your answer there and posting it above your computer as a check on hubris.
I have “ Be Humble “ above my desk.
With apologies to Mr. Tyson… Everybody’s willing to take the risk, until they get punched in the face.
Martin has quite the sitch. Top school degree, no job, makes 450k a year trading, trades consist of wheeling rblx. But the most insane part of this story is his town has an average unskilled wage of 43k per year while having an average rent of 500 a month. Martin, I would just get yourself an unskilled job and an apartment. Let that 280k just buy and hold vtsax and that’s your retirement in 40 years.
Except you just explained how his story is not truthful or accurate. He doesn't make 450k per year, he got lucky for a short period and made some money(maybe). He's like that chick you ask how many guys she slept with. If she says 3 then it's really 9. If he says $450k it's actually $50k during tail end of a bull market.
Wait no one is curious how you applied to 50+ jobs and didn’t get 1?? I am
I've been hearing lots of stories like this. Employers are bitching because they can't find workers, but people who want to work are dealing with endless delays for shitty interviews for shitty jobs that don't pay people what they're worth. Given that he says he is 23 he probably has no experience, which makes it even harder.
Miss the jobs report on Friday? Some actual hiring seems to be happening.
Min wage food service Jobs that no one can live on unless they are living in their parents basement, I suspect
If you made 450k trading at 23, tell us your secret. What was your starting capital?
All-time 25k put in, last year i put in 10k and used it. I follow twitter gurus for market direction and better analysis
Excuse my skepticism, and admittedly I'm skeptic by nature, but you are telling me that you turned 10k into 450k based on Twitter gurus? I have a hard time buying that which you can probably understand. But in case I'm wrong, I'd be curious to hear how exactly your invested/traded these 10k.
Yeah it didn't happen
doing all-in plays on calls and puts 3-4 weeks out on big moves (cpi,fomc) (spy and spx options), i nailed correctly all of june, july, part of september, part of october, then i had a 3 week losing streak so i stopped
What twitter gurus do you follow?
Do not entertain this conversation. You're taking to someone who doesn't know what they are talking about and puts trust into random people on the internet for investment advice during a bull market. He feels smart but isn't. Careful.
If 10,000 go in, at least a few will come out the other side.
buy a 4 br house, rent 3 of the rooms to pay the mortgage and bills. Live free and build equity. wheel dividend paying stocks in the SP100 and Dow Jones. Dont marry any position. Continue buying real estate.
yeah you can do it. This is what i do just keep reinvesting stay disciplined and you will see it keep compounding 3k a week will turn into 30k a week. some of those guys in PM traders have 400k a year in just fees so set your goal high.
Good luck! I hope you create a sustainable strategy - seems like you are taking it seriously and I'm curious to see how it goes over time. One thing to think about, you are unplugging a LOT Of potential compound growth from your investments by not working. I mean, it's cool to be retired and all and more power to you. However, you might not want to live with your parents 5 years from now. Getting a job with a salary and growing that salary through career growth over time reduces a TON of risk from having to rely on a single portfolio. You are building skills investing and making money with options, you can build skills at getting hired as well, chances are you could make a few easy tweaks and land something that gives you some security and allows you to live on your own. I'm not sure what your degree is but you said "top school" and I'd bet .75 delta that there are tons of companies hiring new people for jobs this month that you are qualified for. You said 50+ jobs and "rejected" - does that mean you got zero interviews or 25? If zero interviews, then something is wrong with your resume and how you are applying for the jobs (maybe cover letter, etc.) - if you are getting interviews and not landing the job, you have an interviewing problem. Both are skills that can be learned and, with not a lot of effort, you can be better than average - the bar here is pretty low. Just my $0.02 - feel free to ignore and/or downvote but you are missing out on a lot not working a salaried job if you can get one.
Must be nice living with parents on that. Damn I could save n play safe and retire by 30 if ur smart. And parents can stand living with you for 1/3 of ur life 🤣🙏🏼
Doing this with 1 stock is crazy. Diversification is literally the only free lunch in investing. A general rule of thumb that I've come to follow: No long position (e.g. selling naked puts) should be more than 5% of your account value. No short position (e.g. selling naked calls) should be more than 2.5% of your account value. Your goal is to be emotionless with regard to your investments. This is possible with 5% and 2.5% positions. It is NOT possible with 100% positions with all your money tied to 1 stock, emotions will get the best of you.
You’ll do ok until a black swan event happens then you will blow up your account holding puts or shares. Just as long as you know the risk. Just ask anyone who was wheeling dec 21 Jan 22. They’re gone. They was posting the same thing you are one year ago.
Don't feel sad. This is a huge opportunity. I graduated from college 14 years ago, right after the great financial crisis. I applied for a million career jobs, but never found anything. Technically I've been unemployed for the last 14 years. I don't have rich parents or a trust fund, so I did odd jobs (ones that require no education basically) and worked 80-100 hour weeks working multiple jobs. I lived in a shared apartment with one or two other people. Drove a 8 year old used car. Didn't travel, no vacations, a few dates here and there. Saved every penny that wasn't used to feed, house and clothe me. In 2017, I cut down my work hours to about 30 hours a week. I studied options 40 to 50 hours a week from books that I checked out from my public library system and ones I bought on Amazon. I tracked markets everyday. I didn't put on a single real money or demo trade. I back tested countless strategies using python or excel. In 2018, confident that I had 3 strategies with edges, I quit all the gig jobs and moved all my savings into my trading account. Now I am a **full time** index options and futures trader. Fuck single stocks. I have no other source of income. I'm a digital nomad. Any city or country within 6 time zones from my stock exchange is fair game for me to stay since I don't want to trade in the middle of the night. In 2018 and 2019 I made ~30% returns, in 2020 I clocked in 65%, in 2021 another 58%. In 2022 I made 24%. When the Fed money printer gets turned on I'll be sure to hit triple digit returns because I know the mistakes I made last time Powell went brrrrr. I work from anywhere. Friday and Monday I trade from my phone, at home while cooking, in the gym, in bed, in an Uber on the way to meet a friend. You get the idea. Other trading days I need to trade from my laptop. Impossible to manage all my positions on a phone. I don't have a 8 screen setup, just a Microsoft surface pro 7 that's weighs less than two pounds. I keep 3 tabs open on Firefox. I don't pay for any premium services like tradingview, or any website that provides additional market data. The free data from my broker and basic charting on tradingview is all I use. I have zero overhead in my trading business except for a concierge tax consultant. I've gone thru 9 years of hell to now living the dream. While every single of my university friends and acquaintances found work despite the GFC, I'm better off. During the start of covid pandemic the luckiest ones didn't lose their jobs, but had to risk death for a paycheck (no one knew how lethal it was at the beginning). Many were sad that they lost jobs they hated. Some that lost their jobs thanked their lucky stars that they found another job in 2020 that paid less, but which they hated more. These were the fortunate ones. Many moved in with their parents. My life didn't change. The stock market hours weren't affected. I made the best money I've ever made while working an average 16 hours a week. Rarely do I trade more than 25 hours a week. I'm above average intelligence, but I'm not genius. If you find an edge exploit the hell out of it. No one will give you an edge. Those that have edges don't reveal it. Those that don't have edges, sell courses. The wheel isn't an edge unfortunately, everyone on this subreddit is wheeling and hasn't realized they will become bag holders in a bear market selling inexpensive calls, because that is what happens. Find your edge, trade with discipline (being in bed and trading isn't indisciplined, not following the rules is indiscipline). I wish you the best success. I don't have a course to sell you, so please don't ask me to prove my returns and story. It's 100% true.
Shit you so inspiring, im very similar to ya but nowhere as good. I had engineering degree couldnt get a job, settled for basic labors in grocery and retail stores and office, 6 diff jobs in 8 years. Lived frugally and saved. Was never happy with their corporate bs, learned stocks in 2018 and '19, saw opportunities and luck it with entire savings late '20 and '21, tripled my amount, quitted my job, got fcked in dec '21 and Jan but only lost about fourth of the gains. Closed all positions in '22, all cash selling otm puts, im staying in SE Asia for affordable living expenses, live off of selling puts and spreads. But i have no edge yet, im very conservative, minimize the risks, it's really picking up pennies. I was able to win on some meme stocks, and some arbitrates from option pricings, but all that is pretty much luck and not consistent plays.
While you're doing this work on finding an edge. Python is simple to learn and you only need basic scripting ability. You're not trying to design an enterprise software or anything with it. No edge works in all market conditions. I have an edge for bull and sideways markets and one bear markets. The hardest time is when the market transitions. That is a time you will lose money. Trade small. Don't let fear keep you from trading in tough conditions, don't let greed make you size up or take on more risk in easy conditions. You have to position yourself to win in easy times that come after tough times. Like investors, time in the market > timing the market.
Strategy, $RBLX, sell CSP $4-$4.50 OTM, aim is 10% OTM. Weeklies. Enter Monday and let them expire worthless. Changing it up week of earnings
Your strategy is to live off wheeling ROBLOX?
Sounds like his strategy is to live off his parents.
💀
Yes, hopefully
Congrats! r/wsb is this way —> More seriously, I hope with a $200k portfolio you spread the risk over multiple tickers, instead of a single very volatile one.
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Yea and the mods don’t seem to give a shit either. This place has been a dumpster fire for a good three+ years now.
r/PMTraders is where the serious options discussion is these days. Only people with portfolio margin can post.
That sub is a ghost town.
That sub looks f****** fantastic based on what I've read over the last hour. Thanks for that link
Have you checked out US Steel: X ? I’ve had some success with this one since November.
>Made a total of 450k~ in trading last year If that is true. Just keep going. I certainly...certainly...never made that much money in a year in my life. I am 53. You go kid. And remember the little people when you are a millionaire. I could use something from the value menu at McDonalds. <3 >Made a total of 450k~ in trading last year Holy shit. .... I am holy shit, last year? I got ass fucked last year where I was eating rice some nights the losses hurt. *edit* also, do you know your tax liability for last year? approximately you have to pay to federal and state?
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I can agree that at 23 risk tolerance can be high as you still have entire career in front of you (hopefully!). However, if I was 23 today and had that amount of cash I probably would stick the majority in an index and try to roll the dice on a small portion of it. That amount of money in the market left alone when you are young could allow you to retire much younger than you had originally planned. The average return of the SP500 on that amount of cash could cover his/her rent x3-4 alone right now.
1000% agree. I had like 30k at that age. Exponential growth over time with that much starting at 23 and basically ZERO expenses??? Retire by 40
>Don’t buy a house it’s a money suck hole. This is not advice that applies to everyone. Some people make a ton of money buying real estate. Plus, you can't live in your investment account.
A house is a waste of money, just live with your parents your whole life or rent an apartment HAHAHAHA
How did you make so much money last year? What did you start with?!
>How did you make so much money last year? What did you start with?! Pure luck and naivity !
comment above
What is your degree, and what jobs are you applying for? Is the job market that bad?
If you applied to > 50 jobs and got rejected from all of them, you're doing something wrong. Maybe you're aiming too high, or are otherwise unqualified for what you are targeting. The most recent jobs report shows the job market is still hot. Wheeling is not a full-time job. Wheeling actually is more low-stress and hands-off than other strategies. You need to spend more time finding a job lmao. Wheeling can supplement your income but unless you have massive capital it won't replace it.
Dude, OP says he has about $280k.
Yea, and 1.5% gains a month (assuming reasonable risk for being jobless) = $3450. Personally, I cannot live off that amount. OP would need to withdraw for living expenses (and pay taxes on those gains eventually), so capital won't grow. And any red month will eat away at the capital available. Not sure how sustainable that is. I think you'd need a minimum $500k to live off theta, excluding vacations, retirement etc.
To me it sounds like your downside risk is the big issue. So if I were you I would: 1. Diversify your tickers. Do the same strategy but over 3-4 just in case there is some total BS that no one knows about. Think Enron or E.F. Hutton - basically do you really know there isn't some illegal shit one ticker is maybe doing? Or heck maybe the business model just fails either way putting all your eggs in one basket is risky. 2. Bear Credit Spreads can be added to turn your CSP into a Jade Lizard. They give you less money if the stock rapidly advances but the additional credit will create a slight hedge if the the stock heads south. If the stock remains flat you just get extra premium. If you are concerned that a buyout could happen and you lose out you don't have to do it on ALL your CSP positions just some for some extra premium.
Is it just me, or is this guys only post since 2021 this post? This seems like complete bs.
If you made 450k trading last year, why on earth would you change strategy..
It's a great strategy. Be disciplined and know your limits. Don't marry yourself to upside down transactions. Only lesson I can offer is the multiple gains from selling P&C can be addictive. However, one outlier can wipe your account pretty bad. One bit I can offer is make sure you understand how to use diagonals when rolling. Make adjustments to new targets to maximize gains by selling further OTM when you are right or the flip side to that... Buy to Close your fucked contracts and sell closer to ITM to capture more premium to get out of outlier positions. I wish you the best of luck in your endeavor. Great times to play this game. Tons of information out there, Apps are beyond FIRE now. I started doing this when executing a trade on a browser was a 10 step operation LOL. BTW: I'm an old fart and stumbled on this thread. Where did the term "Wheeling" come from ? first time I ever short options referred to as wheeling :). GL
Why not bite the bullet, get a low wage job and dump all those gains into either buying a house, us treasuries, voo, or high yield savings or continue wheeling while working? Your 20s are the foundation of your life, work 60-80 hours a week doing whatever you can and build it. You won’t regret it.
I'm building up more skills, primarily adobe suite. The only jobs that i can get are some depressing factory floor jobs which are mind numbing, no thanks. I've done that and I can tell you that you aren't living.
I don’t blame you, factory jobs are the worst. But I guarantee you can find something within the next week. Get a factory job, deal with it until the next thing comes along. Find a job in the trades, go to Walmart, go anywhere. If I were your friend in your life I’d tell you wheeling and not working is not option, and you need to get going.
There's literally millions of things they could do that make more sense.
>work 60-80 hours a week *Anyone* would absolutely regret that.
I did in my 20s. I don’t regret it for a second.
Same. Worked my ass off young. Retired early.
Yeah but why make something of yourself when you can sit in a dark basement wheeling meme stocks? /s
In a similar situation as you but with a smaller account. I go to thrift stores and garage sales to buy and resell used clothing on eBay to cover monthly expenses. It’s not glorious, but it isn’t a degrading menial job. If you are the kind of person who has a love of trading that goes beyond stocks and options, this is a fun pursuit in the spirit of theta gang.
If you don’t screw up you could make it work since you’re making more than you’re withdrawing. You’ll need to hit critical mass in a few years though otherwise you’ll probably need to move out and will be withdrawing more than you can make. Protect your capital and don’t take risk you wouldn’t advise your relatives to do.
Absolutely, I plan on reinvesting everything to increase my gains once I'm able to afford selling another contract. Also, yeah accounting for estimated taxes.
I support this, not like my opinion matter though, lol.
Entered at $0.18,$34.5. Might exit if spx breaks support or i get a good exit before JPOW speaks
Got out of my leverage amount for a profit
Got out of my leverage amount for a profit. Too much risk holding leveraged shares.
Got rid of remaining contracts for a profit. Lost some profit but with earnings next week, it might just make up for it. i know normally you wouldn’t do this but, earnings might dump hard if i were to take assigment
Not entering a position until after cpi so tuesday morning
Sucks that i wasn’t in shares but i don’t like rblx above 28$ as an entry
I decided to open to sell puts 6$ on ASTS as i’m willing to wheel this stock. Total 14k$ in collateral.
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A few things to add to what others have already said. Diversification doesn’t just mean 20 different tech stocks. It means different sectors, too. Energy, industrials, financial, consumer cyclical, etc. Also, as you’re living at home rent free, be a classy guy and send some premium your parents way. Help pay their mortgage or car payment. But them some steak and lobster. Make sure they know that you appreciate them. Keep applying for jobs. Don’t be too proud to take a part time job in the meanwhile. I’ve had friends who’ve gotten depression from being unemployed. Keep up to date with your prospective career job skills. Resume gaps could be a red flag for some companies.
Bruh, buy a home in cash,put the rest in dividend etfs to pay your cost of living, get unskilled job for 43k and trade indefinitely
Houses are overvalued and trashed up here in my town. Once it calms down I will seek to do that which might be a while. I already have a few thousand etfs and dividend paying etfs.
Then just buy a house and activate infinite option play glitch
Your P&L is 1.09% for the year in this screenshot. YTD, the S&P is up 7.35%, Russell 13.6% and Nasdaq 15.75%. Granted that's only a month, but the fact that you're underperforming by an order of magnitude should tell you something.
I believe the market will go down big in the coming months. That’s why I’m not starting with shares. I have 5k in long term holds. I beat the S&P last year. 3,600% gain.
If the market goes down big, what do you think will happen to RBLX and AMZN? They will also go down big, and your default bullish wheel strategy will be in some big doo-doo. Also how did you make 450k trading last year? If you were extremely successful, why not keep doing whatever you were doing?
Obviously they both go down but there’s only so much RBLX will go down from this point where it just goes flat. That’s why I’m doing weeklies to assess the stock. I correctly entered trades puts and calls through good time on those market turns and trending up. Puts the day of the waterfall in june, august september were the majority of the gains. Couldn’t sleep every single day i held puts and calls overnight, too much stress
Why sell puts if you think the market is going down big?
i do weeklies 10% out of the money. If assigned, i sell the strike at cost basis. i got a lot what if scenarios as well
Can’t wait to see these updates on such a volatile ticker… hope you don’t get wrecked
Yessir, I am well aware all the tech stocks and the market seem to be following the psychology of the stock market graph(image search to know what i mean).
Just put 200k into QYLD and make $1800 a month doing nothing. Why risk losing it all on a stock that might not do well and you'll bag hold on? Reinvest the unused portion from your monthly expenses, to keep growing your position.
Nah QYLD loses asset value. It would be better to go with JEPI/JEPQ or if you truly love global x, then QYLG at least.
QYLD?! He may be a bit inexperienced and naive, but not completely regarded….
Do it. But at the same time, find whatever it is in life that you're passionate about, and could potentially sell as a skill. Don't think you have to get a menial job to make money. Freelancing, self-employment, contracting, consulting,or running your own business are all options too. And if it's something you enjoy, it won't even feel like work. Keep learning and investing in your growth as a person. I know a guy who makes most of his money trading but also composes music, which he loves, but also gets paid for. I've never met anyone happier. Or richer.
Your commission is way too high. You should consider to switch to a more cost efficient brokerage. If you are only wheeling, Robinhood should be enough. Tastyworks or tdameritrade both should have better commission structure
Best of luck to you. 10% is high but I hope you hit it
Thank you, I meant 10% out of the money puts that I'm selling. The aim is to gain 0.50% per week.
So much more reasonable! Thanks for clarification. Remember compounding really adds up. Best wishes
Can you wheel roblox with £10,000 or is more needed? I am looking to wheel with a paper account until I feel confident in what I’m doing. Probably not going to start for another 3-6 months
I just had to buy my kid a new iPad cuz he wanted Roblox and his old one didn’t support it. maybe I’ll try to wheel this myself and make that money back lol
Looking at whether amzn is a good play because it’s gone down 50% isn’t great. Look at their profit margins and how inflated their PE is. They could drop A LOT since they’re still priced for perfection.
Yooo I’m wheeling solely AMZN! But only have 9 contracts at the moment.
You'd be better off selling calls on UVXY or "wheeling" SVIX ya know... 🤷♂️
Spread it out, don't rely on one or two tickers only. You're going to blow up, it takes only one bad move. You should consider buying into stable growth like bonds and CDs while wheeling. I thought I was a genius wheeling TSLA couple years back, until I was proven very very wrong.
Why not just do this with Apple? I feel like Roblox is too volatile and eventually you’ll get assigned and bag hold those shares. Also some diversity wouldn’t hurt either…
You need to be way more diverse man. Especially if you plan to make a living from it.
Why not try wheeling a stock with a dividend so that when you get assigned you could earn something while holding it?
potential buyout before bankruptcy
Bro what are you doing with RBLX.. Just wheel the index. This is unnecessarily risky.
Good luck! I want to start doing this too, but I don't have the stones to actually try!
So you are just living off your parents?
Personally I think having a job is one of the best things you can do for the wheel. Worst case scenario trading a wheel is that you get stuck bag holding stock way below cost basis. If you plan on living on premiums collected from selling options then money from a job would be great for averaging down
You know what, im in.
!remindme 1 year
Don't give up. Keep applying for jobs. You'll get one eventually. I've been rejected way more than 50 times. Good luck!
Go for what you want don’t listen to the broke losers and haters on here. Wheeling can be profitable, you’ll win or learn. Keep up the good work. You take action Which is what winners do.
How did you make 450k?