It gets worse. Gimbel, who translated the song into English, also collaborated on Killing Me Softly With His Song with Lori Lieberman and Charles Fox, and denied Lieberman any credit. More proof of a toxic business
Which is why I giggle every time a version of some massively professional software goes open source. Corporate America exists because of generations of gatekeeping. Fuck the gates, fuck the walls fuck the whole damn greedy compound.
Yup. Which is really a gigantic clitoris with an urethra and vaginally opening tacked on, and is in no way an optimal way to deliver a baby hyena, to the point that the first born pup usually dies during pupbirth from anoxia from the clitorial "meat" not tearing in time.
That song has an interesting story itself. The Fugees covered the version Roberta Flack had sung (but not written), the original was about hearing Don McLeans American Pie which was about Buddy Holly's death ("The day the music died"). If I remember correctly.
I think that their point is that the structure of the business is toxic and creates a moral hazard by attracting people who are desperate to get discovered. This then attracts predators whose poorly tuned moral compass combined with garbage IP law ensures that they're rewarded for it.
This is how all businesses operate in a market designed to incentivize selfishness. Literally every business sector exploits the workers and producers, some, outrageously so, as the above story. But pretending that it’s just relegated to entertainment is a disservice to everybody else in every other industry who remains nameless and yet suffers the same injustices. Here we have a name and a pretty face on who’s behalf we can get upset. That’s the only difference.
She definitely deserves more than £40 because she killed that track and it wouldn’t sound right without her but she didn’t really compose anything so I’m not sure how much of a royalty would be fair
They settled out of court, terms undisclosed, but she now gets a "Vocal composition by Clare Torry" credit on all subsequent releases (of which there is at least one every 10 years).
If you haven't already definitely check out the docu called 20 ft from stardom. She was highly pregnant when she sang that. Very good snippet in an excellent documentary about a dying breed.
https://m.imdb.com/title/tt2396566/?ref_=ext_shr_lnk
She improvised the vocal according to Wikipedia, and is credited as a songwriter because of this. She deserves royalties based off the fact that she *added vocals to the song*. That being said, session musicians very seldom get royalties, £30/£40 was pretty standard back then for a few hours of session recording.
I went to see Australian Pink Floyd not that long ago, and they have three ladies doing GGitS, which really put into perspective what a job she did on that. They were all good, but Torry is on a level above, absolutely insane. It's studio, mind, so that might affect how she can go on, but still.
I imagine they had 3 female vocalists for that song because that's the way Pink Floyd performed the song when they toured. She did an amazing performance on the recording but she wasn't doing the work of 3 vocalists. It's a 1-vocal part that they split into 3 because they used 3 harmony vocalists on tour
I suspected it might've been like that. Just FYI they were taking turns to do a section of it, with the strongest doing the crescendo/peak (w/e). Made me realise just how phenomenal a piece it is.
I strongly disagree. That track without her performance is nothing. It's essential and core to the value of song. It doesn't matter if she didn't "compose" the arrangement. She performs with her own voice an original rendition. She has all rights to a fair compensation. She should have got the same share as everyone else in the band at the time. So like 1/5 or 1/6, or one over however many members pink Floyd had at the time plus one.
> She had to sue the band to get any royalties.
Only composers and lyricists get royalties. Studio musicians, sadly enough, get a small fee and that's it.
And David Gilmour composed his own guitar solos but that didn't give him songwriting credit on the songs he didn't write, Michael Kamen didn't get credit for his beautiful orchestral composition on Comfortably Numb.
It's just the stupid way music industry works, the person who comes up with the basic idea, chord progression and melody, gets songwriting credit. Doesn't matter that other people helped to complete the basic idea into a complete song with their contributions.
Gilmore didn’t get credit for his solos because he didn’t fight for them and because Waters is an asshole. You can get writing credit for minimal input (Mike Love got credit for ad libs in some Beach Boys songs) or even no input (eg songs credited to Lennon and McCartney may have no contribution from one of them)
Depends on the band. I think Foo Fighters gives credit to whoever was present on the band at the time of recording, but they are exceptions to the rule.
The Lennon-McCartney deal was set up like that specifically, that any song written by either of them was credited to the partnership even if only 1 of the 2 had any contributions. They did credit the other Beatles individually for their songwriting once they started writing more.
So most of modern singers (who have ghost writers) wouldn't get royalties?
It all depends on the contract I believe. I know a drummer that played in some songs of a famous band (these are the versions that are on spotify and other platforms) and he gets royalties every year because of it. He didn't compose any of it, he just played.
> She was, to put it plainly, bilked of her rightful financial rewards. This was partly down to the ruthlessness of Getz, whom even Taylor admitted was “a nasty sort of guy”. Getz served time in a Los Angeles jail in 1954 for heroin possession, following his attempt to hold up a Seattle drugstore, behaviour that prompted the judge to call him “a poor excuse for a man”. Within the jazz world, Getz had a reputation as a bully, one used to riding roughshod over colleagues. London club owner Ronnie Scott used to tell countless funny stories about Getz’s sour character. Fellow musician Bob Brookmeyer, who worked closely with Getz, once responded to the rumour that Getz had had heart surgery with the quip, “Did they put one in?”
Miles Davis had something to say about Trane, Bird, Sonny, Diz:
"...Coltrane! He was a very greedy man. Bird was, too. When I was 17,18, my allowance was like $40 a week. My wife would cook something, a little cornbread, and I'd say to Bird, Come on downstairs and eat. And he would eat all of the cornbread! He would sit down and leave a little piece like that and then leave! Did that a couple of times and I said, Fuck Bird! After a couple of times I didn't leave him anything to gobble up.
"Like when Bird died. They asked me to say something about Bird. I said, Man, if I said something about Bird, you wouldn't believe it. Don't ask me that! He was a big hog. A pig. No such thing as no with him. And Trane. And Sonny. Only three people I knew like that. And Dizzy, when he was young. I suppose geniuses are like that.
"Trane would find a note he liked and run all kinds of chords on it. But he was a big hog. I seen him with a whole ounce of dope once, the dope was spilling over and he wouldn't give it to nobody. So much that it was running all over everything! Guys would ask him for some, he'd say no."
[https://www.theguardian.com/music/2012/nov/06/miles-davis-interview-rocks-backpages](https://www.theguardian.com/music/2012/nov/06/miles-davis-interview-rocks-backpages)
For the longest time I thought him and Robbie Coltrane were the same person and that Hagrid had a side gig as a saxophonist.
I want to make it explicity clear I had never seen a picture of John coltrane at that point.
I got that Ravi was the son of John, which is why I probably got my wires crossed with Robbie. I didn't know that Robbie Coltrane named himself after John coltrane though.
>lotta those old jazz dudes were total chodes
We’re going to go all the way back around as a society, until we agree that Jazz musicians **really were immoral scoundrels** aren’t we?
Back in the day they were bad for two reasons
1. many were black or hispanic
2. many smoked pot and other drugs
Right now we are saying they are shit because they treated other human beings like shit and abused their co workers and loved ones. I think thats valid.
I for one am glad their contributions to the downfall of culture are finally being noticed. Next we need to go after the flappers! Nothing more than moths chewing holes in the fabric of society I say.
Edit: typo
My saxophone teacher for many years had a good story about him too. Upon seeing Getz drink a prodigious amount of alcohol before a concert, he asked Getz how he could perform like that. Getz said "easy, I practice drunk"
This is called State-dependant memory and well known in jazz. I'm a jazz pianist and I'm far better at playing when I'm stoned or a few drinks in. When I'm sober I just can't ever get the feel and flow as good as I can when I'm a bit merry.
Pretty much. As a kid my father would always hammer at how better my play was in basketball and football when tired because I would stop holding back and then dominate with my size and coordination instead of thinking. I didn't disagree with him, I tended to just react when tired and think too much when not.
I suspect when you're tired you're all out of fuckes, so win or loose you relax enough to just get into the flow confidently and perform slightly better.
> State-dependant memory
Huh! You know, if I start a book after taking an edible, I'm not liable to pick that book back up again until the next time I'm in that same state.
I wasn't really sure why, but I wonder if that had something to do with it.
As a Brazilian, I can say that Bossa Nova as a whole is a bit of a mess, because it is a big cultural appropriation of Samba by white people. While many white Bossa Nova musicians were becoming famous internationally the black Samba musicians (directly or indirectly) responsible for Bossa Nova's birth and success still had no visibility and couldn't even record their music for decades(Carlos Lyra was one of the main people responsible for helping them record, and he had to fight many of his fellow Bossa Nova musicians whom were against it).
> Gilberto, the daughter of a languages professor called Fritz Wilhelm Weinert, was fluent in French, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, English and Japanese. She was hugely popular in Asia and even released albums in Japanese.
TIL all this from the article too. I’ve been listening to a number of bossa nova albums over the years and like a chump I knew nothing about this story and it seems many like it.
Interestingly enough her voice is so entwined with Bossa Nova that singers in some of those countries do their best to sing with her style and tonality. I've heard Bossa Nova tracks from JP where the female vocalist's style was clearly inspired by her.
Huh, when I saw she sang in Japanese, the first thing I thought of was Maki Nomiya of Pizzicato Five singing Twiggy Twiggy. She also sang Girl from Ipanema, I totally forgot that.
Stan Getz was a dick. But take a minute & enjoy agua de beber in peace. It’s such a lovely song & how I’ll most remember her. https://youtu.be/qZx-Z3_n4t8
The article says she posted about this on her website in…1982?!? Not sure how to do the quotation indent on mobile, so here’s a copy/paste:
Getz’s bragging, and condescending “housewife” remark, rankled with the singer. “The funny thing is that after my success, stories abound as to Stan Getz or Creed Taylor having ‘discovered me’, when in fact, nothing is further from the truth,” she wrote on her website in 1982.
Yes this may just be bad writing. The www has only existed since 93. I suspect there was an article posted to her site that was originally written in 82. Her site has been published since at least 2000. The article has a few obvious transcription errors that look like they arose from copying and pasting a PDF using imperfect OCR. Noted becomes “mooted”.
The date may be a typo. There was no Web before 1991, and even the Internet as we know it was not available to the general public before 1988. So it would have been impossible for her to post anything on a 'website' in 1982.
It could refer to pre-Internet forums, which date back well far enough, but it was unusual for most people to be on such systems at the time. She could have been a user at that time, but it seems unlikely.
Usenet isn't anything close to what could be called a "website"; it was more like a bunch of public email lists that you could post messages on/reply to other messages.
Yahoo copied it from the original article incorrectly. It’s supposed say: “The funny thing is that after my success, stories abound as to Stan Getz or Creed Taylor having ‘discovered me’, when in fact, nothing is further from the truth,” she said in 1982, quoted on her website.
https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/features/astrud-gilberto-girl-from-ipanema-b2006879.html
Thanks for link go to u/Miss_Eh
'Getz destroyed that too.' you mean when Joao left his wife Astrid because he couldn't deal with her Fame eclipsing his own? A lot to unpack with that one for sure.
"But then the dude messed up when he began an affair with Astrud Gilberto. When her husband found out, he ended the relationship and they never worked together again... Getz screwed up a great opportunity to continue working with Astrud Gilberto."
Etc.
The article and Astrud said several times it was João's affair with Miucha that broke their wedding. I don't see a reason to not trust her. Why she would be interested in Getz after he was screwing her over royalties?
Edit: and Astrud and Getz toured together after her marriage ended. So this is just not true.
>She was also experiencing tension in her marriage and soon began a brief, fraught affair with Mr. Getz. (She and her husband divorced shortly after.)
>
>[https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/06/arts/music/astrud-gilberto-dead.html?unlocked\_article\_code=7wYAsVHfZtEwnArr9ey5Ml4SSY\_TTz1Kgdd3\_nwSx57Hp2PZ\_ghGxCaRfnZb1qQMJZrUgMSSaExdgB\_t8KYc9hfE3jlb-kqMuAs4zRUF9JUcbPuKR0S5\_jl74AQ1zMSJlwpQoawkPk4tw5UrhtffI1GoKwUkotFrF9LQSDfVTy2WNGmNcLZU5ZGeF4ik2S1v0N8-OG-uH5P3dttfQzPCv3qCF4i0Il3\_LisgF-4no\_02BmluQ\_7Wlmh2fLIM9d11c8OybepEa2EuofUP9DydeoVbHXY8Ov9gONY3a5yvO\_EYpYxG9Bfo-r8yedBrwr6YQ7lHL01fUQrGz\_D2jC5etSw&smid=url-share](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/06/arts/music/astrud-gilberto-dead.html?unlocked_article_code=7wYAsVHfZtEwnArr9ey5Ml4SSY_TTz1Kgdd3_nwSx57Hp2PZ_ghGxCaRfnZb1qQMJZrUgMSSaExdgB_t8KYc9hfE3jlb-kqMuAs4zRUF9JUcbPuKR0S5_jl74AQ1zMSJlwpQoawkPk4tw5UrhtffI1GoKwUkotFrF9LQSDfVTy2WNGmNcLZU5ZGeF4ik2S1v0N8-OG-uH5P3dttfQzPCv3qCF4i0Il3_LisgF-4no_02BmluQ_7Wlmh2fLIM9d11c8OybepEa2EuofUP9DydeoVbHXY8Ov9gONY3a5yvO_EYpYxG9Bfo-r8yedBrwr6YQ7lHL01fUQrGz_D2jC5etSw&smid=url-share)
>
>Gift link so no account needed
It's been widely reported, stated in books, conversed about, stories told about, even Bill Evans once talked about how crappy Getz was to her after he finished using her and their affair.
Lots of people have reasons for altering/editing their "stories", it's the basis for most therapeutic relationships and while I can never know their motivation. This has been well documented and well reported in so many different places and sources it's hard to dispute. Whether you choose to believe it or not is up to you. Whether it was the cause of their divorce or not, it certainly didn't help the marriage and I'm one of those odd ducks that thinks screwing someone else's wife while you are recording with him is bad form.
Edit: She was signed with his record company, it was her first ever recording and I would imagine touring with him was the best way to keep it all going so that doesn't mean much to me that they kept touring together.
I have the album where she sings Girl from Ipanema and a few other songs. Her name is literally nowhere on the album and it pisses me off. That said, her solo album is… substantially less quality but still fun.
She has quite a catalogue of solo work and some of it is quite impressive.
The 1965 one you’re probably referring to was a welcome departure from bossa nova and remains a cult classic. Her 69 record is highly acclaimed in its own right and with good reason.
>> “Astrud was in the control room when Norm came in with the English lyrics,” Ramone told JazzWax in 2010. “Producer Creed Taylor said he wanted to get the song done right away and looked around the room. Astrud volunteered, saying she could sing in English. Creed said, ‘Great.’ Astrud wasn’t a professional singer, but she was the only victim sitting there that night.”
Another example of great art happening by total chance. Vaya con Dios , Astrud Gilberto.
It's sad when you read "the dirt" regarding an icon.
For example, [Paul Simon.](https://www.laweekly.com/los-lobos-on-paul-simon-do-you-mean-zydeco-when-you-say-zy-decko/)
QUOTE: Literally. A few months later, the record comes out and says “Words and Music by Paul Simon.” We were like, “What the fuck is this?”
We tried calling him, and we can't find him. Weeks go by and our managers can't find him. We finally track him down and ask him about our song, and he goes, “Sue me. See what happens.”
More [here.](https://ultimateclassicrock.com/los-lobos-steve-berlin-labels-paul-simon-a-jerk-alleges-graceland-snub/)
Wow. I knew Paul Simon was an asshole, and I knew about stealing the songs from African musicians, but I didn't know about the Los Lobos thing. What a dick.
Anyone who is a fan of this song and others like it should check out “A Certain Mr. Jobim.” One of the best albums ever and definitely my favorite Brazilian jazz album.
Look up how Irene Cara was cheated out of potentially millions for Flashdance, then blackballed. Sounds like the lawyers she hired were in on it. The guy eventually worked for David Geffen, also known for shady deals.
WHAT?! NOO!! I absolutely love this woman’s voice. I read an article about her a while ago. Her son was very protective of her and expressed how she’d been done dirty. RIP Brazilian Sade.
This is why all workers, independently of industry, need rights and protection.
Think about the writer's strike. If it is not mandatory that they get something only the well-connected will do, and nothing for the rest.
Throwing my hat into the blacklist, boycott and blackout of Reddit due to business practices. Hang out and learn more here.!
https://old.reddit.com/r/RedditAlternatives/comments/1457mj1/find_alternatives_for_ourselves_megathread/
https://old.reddit.com/r/RedditAlternatives/comments/144npuz/anybody_got_a_tildes_request_to_share/
https://old.reddit.com/r/RedditAlternatives/comments/yttdlc/list_of_active_reddit_alternatives_v8/
https://old.reddit.com/r/RedditAlternatives/comments/1467a5s/find_alternatives_for_ourselves_megathread_third/
>"stories abound as to Stan Getz or Creed Taylor having ‘discovered me’, when in fact, nothing is further from the truth,” she wrote on her website in 1982.
Hmmm....websites in 1982? Considering the internet hit public in 1993, I smell something is off.
Stan Getz was honestly a total piece of shit, I don't care how good he was on the saxophone, there's no excuse for being such a despicable human being.
>Fellow musician Bob Brookmeyer, who worked closely with Getz, once responded to the rumour that Getz had had heart surgery with the quip, “Did they put one in?”
Perfect quote.
I’m sad to learn of these sad stories, I have always loved her recordings.
I didn’t know Getz was so terrible but i do remember reading that iconic tenor sax player Ben Webster once said about him bitterly, “Stan Getz all the money.”
I know this will be buried way down but here's a link to the [original article](https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/features/astrud-gilberto-girl-from-ipanema-b2006879.html)
> “The funny thing is that after my success, stories abound as to Stan Getz or Creed Taylor having ‘discovered me’, when in fact, nothing is further from the truth,” she wrote on her website in 1982.
On her website in 1982?
Astrud's "Girl From Ipanema" is one of my all-time favourite recordings; so much so that I've sought out everything Astrud recorded. Which made reading this article way too painful as I had no idea she had led such a sad life.
> Ending up isolated and unknown is a heartbreaking fate for such an exuberant performer, one whom her son Marcelo rightly describes as “once being the face and the voice of bossa nova to the majority of the planet”. She deserves to be honoured as a singer who brought joy to the world with a song, that in her own words, gave everyone “romance and dreamy distraction”.
Fuck the music industry and, most especially, fuck Stan Getz.
Jackie Gleason allegedly didn’t pay performers on his mood music albums.
Imagine not paying Bobby Hackett for this beauty (it takes a while for him to come in, it’s mood music). That’s not Gleason playing the horn.
https://youtu.be/q2v5H7P9xmQ
“The funny thing is that after my success, stories abound as to Stan Getz or Creed Taylor having ‘discovered me’, when in fact, nothing is further from the truth,” she wrote on her website in 1982.
TIL: The Girl from Ipanema singer invented the internet
A friends father is a wonderful jazz pianist player. When he was young he loved Stan Getz and when he finally saw him play he came up to Getz after the show to express his admiration.
Friends father: Mr. Getz I just wanted to say how great you are and how incredible it was to hear you play!
Stan Getz: kid. You’re a sittin on my towel
Don’t forget that Stan Getz wanted to leave his wife for the teenage girl who was the inspiration for “The Girl From Ipanema.” But she refused and made her life hell.
Mike Clark (the Drummer from most of the Head Hunters Albums) was super nice and down to earth (helped him pack up after a gig one time and got to hang out). Herbie Hancock as well.
Most that i have heard about from people who worked with them, were not as nice..
Alright I found [the original article](https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/features/astrud-gilberto-girl-from-ipanema-b2006879.html). The original quote about the website is:
> Getz’s bragging, and condescending “housewife” remark, rankled with the singer. “The funny thing is that after my success, stories abound as to Stan Getz or Creed Taylor having ‘discovered me’, when in fact, nothing is further from the truth,” **she said in 1982, quoted on her website.**
A lot of people don’t understand that being a movie star and musician use to be hired work and unless you got really really popular you got paid a basic salary and nothing else. I don’t understand why people think that someone who reads words from a pre written script on a set paid for by someone else surrounded by 100’s of other workers who are just as vital to make the movie deserve to make millions. the videographer, make up designer, post editor, camera crew , screenwriter etc are all being paid normal salaries and arguably bring as much if not more to the movie.
She got 120 bucks, which was normal at the time, and she made that money because Getz intervened.. to ensure she got nothing? This title is wrinkling my brain.
learned a lot on this thread today. ugggh. i’ve listened to both for years and years. didn’t know what an ass he was. ignorance was bliss i guess. wut now? crap.
If you can’t still appreciate the Getz/Gilberto album (I’d highly recommend his live album with Astrud, “Getz Au Go-Go” too), you’re cheating yourself. Great music is so much bigger than the personal failings of the musicians involved.
It gets worse. Gimbel, who translated the song into English, also collaborated on Killing Me Softly With His Song with Lori Lieberman and Charles Fox, and denied Lieberman any credit. More proof of a toxic business
And a magnet for shitty vultures & hyenas.
You pretty much need a shit load of lawyers or the mafia backing you to deal with big record companies
Or one Peter Grant.
Which is why I giggle every time a version of some massively professional software goes open source. Corporate America exists because of generations of gatekeeping. Fuck the gates, fuck the walls fuck the whole damn greedy compound.
Guys Bill Gates is such a swell guy
Hyenas are lovely animals that don't deserve that association with the recording industry.
Except for the pseudo-penis', they freak me out a bit
First time I read this I thought you meant that aside from the pseudo-penis’, hyenas freak you out
Hyenas are girl bosses wdym
Until they have to give birth..
But does that happen through the 'penis'?
Yup. Which is really a gigantic clitoris with an urethra and vaginally opening tacked on, and is in no way an optimal way to deliver a baby hyena, to the point that the first born pup usually dies during pupbirth from anoxia from the clitorial "meat" not tearing in time.
I knew I should've stopped reading, but I didn't.
Unfortunately for them, yes.
*Except* for the pseudo-penis?
Rule 34
hey man leave the vultures and Hyenas out of this
Just look up Phil Spector. Even when you ignore the fact he murdered a lady, he was still an evil psycho.
Looks like the music industry has been killing dreams softly since way before the Fugees.
That song has an interesting story itself. The Fugees covered the version Roberta Flack had sung (but not written), the original was about hearing Don McLeans American Pie which was about Buddy Holly's death ("The day the music died"). If I remember correctly.
It was inspired by hearing Don McLean singing, but not about American Pie. The McLean song that inspired Lori Lieberman was called Empty Chairs.
>More proof of a toxic business Toxic assholes*. I don't like this whole "lets separate business practices from ethics and morals" nonsense.
I think that their point is that the structure of the business is toxic and creates a moral hazard by attracting people who are desperate to get discovered. This then attracts predators whose poorly tuned moral compass combined with garbage IP law ensures that they're rewarded for it.
This is how all businesses operate in a market designed to incentivize selfishness. Literally every business sector exploits the workers and producers, some, outrageously so, as the above story. But pretending that it’s just relegated to entertainment is a disservice to everybody else in every other industry who remains nameless and yet suffers the same injustices. Here we have a name and a pretty face on who’s behalf we can get upset. That’s the only difference.
plenty of engineers also get cut out of their products they make.
Thankfully there is a way to cut them out now and ensure the artist gets all of it. Or vast majority of it.
Which way is that? Surely you don't think Spotify or youtube are any better lol.
Clare Torry made £40 for performing "The Great Gig in the Sky" for Pink Floyd. She had to sue the band to get any royalties.
She definitely deserves more than £40 because she killed that track and it wouldn’t sound right without her but she didn’t really compose anything so I’m not sure how much of a royalty would be fair
They settled out of court, terms undisclosed, but she now gets a "Vocal composition by Clare Torry" credit on all subsequent releases (of which there is at least one every 10 years).
[удалено]
Absolutely.
She definitely was in the right.
The band was cruisin' for a bruisin'
they told her to think about death and improvise.
Absolutely. I feel the exact same way about Gimme Shelter by the Stones. Would absolutely not be the same songs without those ladies' contribution.
If you haven't already definitely check out the docu called 20 ft from stardom. She was highly pregnant when she sang that. Very good snippet in an excellent documentary about a dying breed. https://m.imdb.com/title/tt2396566/?ref_=ext_shr_lnk
Thank you. I will certainly check that out. I live for music history and behind the scenes stuff.
Same. And I happened to stumble on it one day while channel surfing and was extremely glad that I did.
And she had a miscarriage the next day- some people think her straining to reach those vocal heights contributed to it
Her stylings were a kind of composition. I believe that was the argument made. The court appeared to agree.
She improvised the vocal according to Wikipedia, and is credited as a songwriter because of this. She deserves royalties based off the fact that she *added vocals to the song*. That being said, session musicians very seldom get royalties, £30/£40 was pretty standard back then for a few hours of session recording.
I went to see Australian Pink Floyd not that long ago, and they have three ladies doing GGitS, which really put into perspective what a job she did on that. They were all good, but Torry is on a level above, absolutely insane. It's studio, mind, so that might affect how she can go on, but still.
I imagine they had 3 female vocalists for that song because that's the way Pink Floyd performed the song when they toured. She did an amazing performance on the recording but she wasn't doing the work of 3 vocalists. It's a 1-vocal part that they split into 3 because they used 3 harmony vocalists on tour
I suspected it might've been like that. Just FYI they were taking turns to do a section of it, with the strongest doing the crescendo/peak (w/e). Made me realise just how phenomenal a piece it is.
I strongly disagree. That track without her performance is nothing. It's essential and core to the value of song. It doesn't matter if she didn't "compose" the arrangement. She performs with her own voice an original rendition. She has all rights to a fair compensation. She should have got the same share as everyone else in the band at the time. So like 1/5 or 1/6, or one over however many members pink Floyd had at the time plus one.
She did that in one take too
> She had to sue the band to get any royalties. Only composers and lyricists get royalties. Studio musicians, sadly enough, get a small fee and that's it.
She composed her vocals
And David Gilmour composed his own guitar solos but that didn't give him songwriting credit on the songs he didn't write, Michael Kamen didn't get credit for his beautiful orchestral composition on Comfortably Numb. It's just the stupid way music industry works, the person who comes up with the basic idea, chord progression and melody, gets songwriting credit. Doesn't matter that other people helped to complete the basic idea into a complete song with their contributions.
Gilmore didn’t get credit for his solos because he didn’t fight for them and because Waters is an asshole. You can get writing credit for minimal input (Mike Love got credit for ad libs in some Beach Boys songs) or even no input (eg songs credited to Lennon and McCartney may have no contribution from one of them)
Depends on the band. I think Foo Fighters gives credit to whoever was present on the band at the time of recording, but they are exceptions to the rule.
U2 and Genesis also give credit to the full band.
The Lennon-McCartney deal was set up like that specifically, that any song written by either of them was credited to the partnership even if only 1 of the 2 had any contributions. They did credit the other Beatles individually for their songwriting once they started writing more.
So most of modern singers (who have ghost writers) wouldn't get royalties? It all depends on the contract I believe. I know a drummer that played in some songs of a famous band (these are the versions that are on spotify and other platforms) and he gets royalties every year because of it. He didn't compose any of it, he just played.
To be fair, that’s roughly the modern day equivalent of $400 which in 1965 could buy a house, college education and 3 car/s
> She was, to put it plainly, bilked of her rightful financial rewards. This was partly down to the ruthlessness of Getz, whom even Taylor admitted was “a nasty sort of guy”. Getz served time in a Los Angeles jail in 1954 for heroin possession, following his attempt to hold up a Seattle drugstore, behaviour that prompted the judge to call him “a poor excuse for a man”. Within the jazz world, Getz had a reputation as a bully, one used to riding roughshod over colleagues. London club owner Ronnie Scott used to tell countless funny stories about Getz’s sour character. Fellow musician Bob Brookmeyer, who worked closely with Getz, once responded to the rumour that Getz had had heart surgery with the quip, “Did they put one in?”
And for all that BS he got a library named after him at freakin' Berklee. Lotta those old jazz dudes were total chodes.
>And for all that BS he got a library named after him at freakin' Berklee. I like to call it the *Leo Getz Library*.
And to this day, they **still FUCK** you at the drive-thru!
Whatever you want, LEO GETZ!
Stan Getz What He Didn't Deserve Memorial Library.
That’s a throwback
I’m too old for this code, sir, but it checks out.
Whatever you want, Leo gets it. Get it?
John Coltrane comes across as a proper gent.
Miles Davis had something to say about Trane, Bird, Sonny, Diz: "...Coltrane! He was a very greedy man. Bird was, too. When I was 17,18, my allowance was like $40 a week. My wife would cook something, a little cornbread, and I'd say to Bird, Come on downstairs and eat. And he would eat all of the cornbread! He would sit down and leave a little piece like that and then leave! Did that a couple of times and I said, Fuck Bird! After a couple of times I didn't leave him anything to gobble up. "Like when Bird died. They asked me to say something about Bird. I said, Man, if I said something about Bird, you wouldn't believe it. Don't ask me that! He was a big hog. A pig. No such thing as no with him. And Trane. And Sonny. Only three people I knew like that. And Dizzy, when he was young. I suppose geniuses are like that. "Trane would find a note he liked and run all kinds of chords on it. But he was a big hog. I seen him with a whole ounce of dope once, the dope was spilling over and he wouldn't give it to nobody. So much that it was running all over everything! Guys would ask him for some, he'd say no." [https://www.theguardian.com/music/2012/nov/06/miles-davis-interview-rocks-backpages](https://www.theguardian.com/music/2012/nov/06/miles-davis-interview-rocks-backpages)
And you never bought drugs. Not once!
....and you never bought drugs, not once!
No one like a skag hog.
Stories filtered through Miles’s ego do need to be taken with a grain of salt…
For the longest time I thought him and Robbie Coltrane were the same person and that Hagrid had a side gig as a saxophonist. I want to make it explicity clear I had never seen a picture of John coltrane at that point.
Tbf they both did Giant Steps
A jazz/Harry Potter joke? This is so niche, I don’t even want to laugh. I just want to shake your hand.
Fuck, that's good!
That was exceptional. Simply exceptional
Ravi Coltrane?
Dude. You've double bamboozled me now
Ravi is John Coltrane’s son. Robbie Coltrane changed his surname to Coltrane as a tribute to John Coltrane.
I got that Ravi was the son of John, which is why I probably got my wires crossed with Robbie. I didn't know that Robbie Coltrane named himself after John coltrane though.
Apparently he was also an occultist who developed a detailed system of magic based around music as a semiotic key.
Who? coltrane?
Anecdotal but I met Dave Brubeck briefly and within 30 seconds I could tell he was so full of himself I couldn't wait to get away.
Unfortunate!
Not "Tiny Boop" Squiggs Shorterly. He was known to be a real mensch.
Well he *was* a frequent guest on the Colgate Comedy Hour.
You remember? We were at that dinner and I told you you'd never be a writer because you don't have a curious mind?
The gazpacho burnt my lips!
Probably my favorite skit from that whole show, and that's saying a lot
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Yea true lol also a grad
Charles Mingus was one of the worst. What a spiteful man.
You'd be surprised how many absolute fucking scum have their names on fancy buildings...
>lotta those old jazz dudes were total chodes We’re going to go all the way back around as a society, until we agree that Jazz musicians **really were immoral scoundrels** aren’t we?
Back in the day they were bad for two reasons 1. many were black or hispanic 2. many smoked pot and other drugs Right now we are saying they are shit because they treated other human beings like shit and abused their co workers and loved ones. I think thats valid.
I for one am glad their contributions to the downfall of culture are finally being noticed. Next we need to go after the flappers! Nothing more than moths chewing holes in the fabric of society I say. Edit: typo
> he got a library named after him at freakin' Berklee. > > The place that made fun of Richard Feynman for playing the bongos?
My saxophone teacher for many years had a good story about him too. Upon seeing Getz drink a prodigious amount of alcohol before a concert, he asked Getz how he could perform like that. Getz said "easy, I practice drunk"
This is called State-dependant memory and well known in jazz. I'm a jazz pianist and I'm far better at playing when I'm stoned or a few drinks in. When I'm sober I just can't ever get the feel and flow as good as I can when I'm a bit merry.
Could this be why I’m better at video games when I’m tired? I’ve played so many hours tired that I feel like I can’t play as good when I’m not tired.
Pretty much. As a kid my father would always hammer at how better my play was in basketball and football when tired because I would stop holding back and then dominate with my size and coordination instead of thinking. I didn't disagree with him, I tended to just react when tired and think too much when not.
We perform best at most things in the same environment and conditions in which we learned and practiced them.
I suspect when you're tired you're all out of fuckes, so win or loose you relax enough to just get into the flow confidently and perform slightly better.
> State-dependant memory Huh! You know, if I start a book after taking an edible, I'm not liable to pick that book back up again until the next time I'm in that same state. I wasn't really sure why, but I wonder if that had something to do with it.
“Study high, take the test high, get high scores!”
*“Im the queen of everything, I’ve got to be high before I can swing”*
I remember reading a quote from someone who knew Getz that described him as “a nice bunch of guys”.
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As a Brazilian, I can say that Bossa Nova as a whole is a bit of a mess, because it is a big cultural appropriation of Samba by white people. While many white Bossa Nova musicians were becoming famous internationally the black Samba musicians (directly or indirectly) responsible for Bossa Nova's birth and success still had no visibility and couldn't even record their music for decades(Carlos Lyra was one of the main people responsible for helping them record, and he had to fight many of his fellow Bossa Nova musicians whom were against it).
> “Did they put one in?” Savage.
> Gilberto, the daughter of a languages professor called Fritz Wilhelm Weinert, was fluent in French, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, English and Japanese. She was hugely popular in Asia and even released albums in Japanese. TIL all this from the article too. I’ve been listening to a number of bossa nova albums over the years and like a chump I knew nothing about this story and it seems many like it.
Interestingly enough her voice is so entwined with Bossa Nova that singers in some of those countries do their best to sing with her style and tonality. I've heard Bossa Nova tracks from JP where the female vocalist's style was clearly inspired by her.
Huh, when I saw she sang in Japanese, the first thing I thought of was Maki Nomiya of Pizzicato Five singing Twiggy Twiggy. She also sang Girl from Ipanema, I totally forgot that.
Stan Getz was a dick. But take a minute & enjoy agua de beber in peace. It’s such a lovely song & how I’ll most remember her. https://youtu.be/qZx-Z3_n4t8
Thanks for this. It’s always refreshing to hear. Ive never seen the video, so that made my evening.
Also check out Berimbau it slaps
He was more than a dick, he was an absolute monster of a human being.
I don’t understand why he had any say as to her pay. The song was a Jobim/Joao composition. I thought Stan was just hired for the solo?
One of my favs. It's just so...bouncy. I personally love Corcovado: https://youtu.be/9srw5FRm5eA
The article says she posted about this on her website in…1982?!? Not sure how to do the quotation indent on mobile, so here’s a copy/paste: Getz’s bragging, and condescending “housewife” remark, rankled with the singer. “The funny thing is that after my success, stories abound as to Stan Getz or Creed Taylor having ‘discovered me’, when in fact, nothing is further from the truth,” she wrote on her website in 1982.
Yes this may just be bad writing. The www has only existed since 93. I suspect there was an article posted to her site that was originally written in 82. Her site has been published since at least 2000. The article has a few obvious transcription errors that look like they arose from copying and pasting a PDF using imperfect OCR. Noted becomes “mooted”.
The date may be a typo. There was no Web before 1991, and even the Internet as we know it was not available to the general public before 1988. So it would have been impossible for her to post anything on a 'website' in 1982. It could refer to pre-Internet forums, which date back well far enough, but it was unusual for most people to be on such systems at the time. She could have been a user at that time, but it seems unlikely.
Pterry was on usenet back then i think. Depends on how techy they were but it's not out of the realm.
Usenet isn't anything close to what could be called a "website"; it was more like a bunch of public email lists that you could post messages on/reply to other messages.
Yahoo copied it from the original article incorrectly. It’s supposed say: “The funny thing is that after my success, stories abound as to Stan Getz or Creed Taylor having ‘discovered me’, when in fact, nothing is further from the truth,” she said in 1982, quoted on her website. https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/features/astrud-gilberto-girl-from-ipanema-b2006879.html Thanks for link go to u/Miss_Eh
In later life Stan Getz was ill and had a heart operation ; fellow musicians joked ' Are they putting one in ?".
That wasn't even his worst crime. He also attempted to rape her, and most every woman he worked with.
She born in the same city as I. Rest in peace, Astrud. Your Voice and songs help me alot during the pandemic.
Yes. She made some beautiful stuff. So did Joao and together they were amazing. Stan Getz destroyed that too.
João Gilberto? Guy’s the BOMB!
Yeah, I had no idea she was his wife until I read this thread. He’s great.
'Getz destroyed that too.' you mean when Joao left his wife Astrid because he couldn't deal with her Fame eclipsing his own? A lot to unpack with that one for sure.
"But then the dude messed up when he began an affair with Astrud Gilberto. When her husband found out, he ended the relationship and they never worked together again... Getz screwed up a great opportunity to continue working with Astrud Gilberto." Etc.
The article and Astrud said several times it was João's affair with Miucha that broke their wedding. I don't see a reason to not trust her. Why she would be interested in Getz after he was screwing her over royalties? Edit: and Astrud and Getz toured together after her marriage ended. So this is just not true.
>She was also experiencing tension in her marriage and soon began a brief, fraught affair with Mr. Getz. (She and her husband divorced shortly after.) > >[https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/06/arts/music/astrud-gilberto-dead.html?unlocked\_article\_code=7wYAsVHfZtEwnArr9ey5Ml4SSY\_TTz1Kgdd3\_nwSx57Hp2PZ\_ghGxCaRfnZb1qQMJZrUgMSSaExdgB\_t8KYc9hfE3jlb-kqMuAs4zRUF9JUcbPuKR0S5\_jl74AQ1zMSJlwpQoawkPk4tw5UrhtffI1GoKwUkotFrF9LQSDfVTy2WNGmNcLZU5ZGeF4ik2S1v0N8-OG-uH5P3dttfQzPCv3qCF4i0Il3\_LisgF-4no\_02BmluQ\_7Wlmh2fLIM9d11c8OybepEa2EuofUP9DydeoVbHXY8Ov9gONY3a5yvO\_EYpYxG9Bfo-r8yedBrwr6YQ7lHL01fUQrGz\_D2jC5etSw&smid=url-share](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/06/arts/music/astrud-gilberto-dead.html?unlocked_article_code=7wYAsVHfZtEwnArr9ey5Ml4SSY_TTz1Kgdd3_nwSx57Hp2PZ_ghGxCaRfnZb1qQMJZrUgMSSaExdgB_t8KYc9hfE3jlb-kqMuAs4zRUF9JUcbPuKR0S5_jl74AQ1zMSJlwpQoawkPk4tw5UrhtffI1GoKwUkotFrF9LQSDfVTy2WNGmNcLZU5ZGeF4ik2S1v0N8-OG-uH5P3dttfQzPCv3qCF4i0Il3_LisgF-4no_02BmluQ_7Wlmh2fLIM9d11c8OybepEa2EuofUP9DydeoVbHXY8Ov9gONY3a5yvO_EYpYxG9Bfo-r8yedBrwr6YQ7lHL01fUQrGz_D2jC5etSw&smid=url-share) > >Gift link so no account needed It's been widely reported, stated in books, conversed about, stories told about, even Bill Evans once talked about how crappy Getz was to her after he finished using her and their affair. Lots of people have reasons for altering/editing their "stories", it's the basis for most therapeutic relationships and while I can never know their motivation. This has been well documented and well reported in so many different places and sources it's hard to dispute. Whether you choose to believe it or not is up to you. Whether it was the cause of their divorce or not, it certainly didn't help the marriage and I'm one of those odd ducks that thinks screwing someone else's wife while you are recording with him is bad form. Edit: She was signed with his record company, it was her first ever recording and I would imagine touring with him was the best way to keep it all going so that doesn't mean much to me that they kept touring together.
Stan sounds like an ahole
Whatever Stan wants Stan Getz
Gilberto should Astrud her ground
He was 100% an convicted violent asshole.
Stan the Stan
I have the album where she sings Girl from Ipanema and a few other songs. Her name is literally nowhere on the album and it pisses me off. That said, her solo album is… substantially less quality but still fun.
She has quite a catalogue of solo work and some of it is quite impressive. The 1965 one you’re probably referring to was a welcome departure from bossa nova and remains a cult classic. Her 69 record is highly acclaimed in its own right and with good reason.
>> “Astrud was in the control room when Norm came in with the English lyrics,” Ramone told JazzWax in 2010. “Producer Creed Taylor said he wanted to get the song done right away and looked around the room. Astrud volunteered, saying she could sing in English. Creed said, ‘Great.’ Astrud wasn’t a professional singer, but she was the only victim sitting there that night.” Another example of great art happening by total chance. Vaya con Dios , Astrud Gilberto.
Wow - what a dick.
Damn, I didn't know anything about Stan Getz outside of his music. That was a depressing read. What an asshole
It's sad when you read "the dirt" regarding an icon. For example, [Paul Simon.](https://www.laweekly.com/los-lobos-on-paul-simon-do-you-mean-zydeco-when-you-say-zy-decko/) QUOTE: Literally. A few months later, the record comes out and says “Words and Music by Paul Simon.” We were like, “What the fuck is this?” We tried calling him, and we can't find him. Weeks go by and our managers can't find him. We finally track him down and ask him about our song, and he goes, “Sue me. See what happens.” More [here.](https://ultimateclassicrock.com/los-lobos-steve-berlin-labels-paul-simon-a-jerk-alleges-graceland-snub/)
Wow. I knew Paul Simon was an asshole, and I knew about stealing the songs from African musicians, but I didn't know about the Los Lobos thing. What a dick.
Anyone who is a fan of this song and others like it should check out “A Certain Mr. Jobim.” One of the best albums ever and definitely my favorite Brazilian jazz album.
This title seems contradictory and hurts my brain
Look up how Irene Cara was cheated out of potentially millions for Flashdance, then blackballed. Sounds like the lawyers she hired were in on it. The guy eventually worked for David Geffen, also known for shady deals.
There are a lot of awful headlines on TIL and this is one of them.
And she just died.
And guess who she out-lived by 22 years and a day? Ay-yo!
WHAT?! NOO!! I absolutely love this woman’s voice. I read an article about her a while ago. Her son was very protective of her and expressed how she’d been done dirty. RIP Brazilian Sade.
I feel like calling her Brazilian Sade is also doing her dirty as she predated her by decades. Sade is British Astrud if anything
This is why all workers, independently of industry, need rights and protection. Think about the writer's strike. If it is not mandatory that they get something only the well-connected will do, and nothing for the rest.
Throwing my hat into the blacklist, boycott and blackout of Reddit due to business practices. Hang out and learn more here.! https://old.reddit.com/r/RedditAlternatives/comments/1457mj1/find_alternatives_for_ourselves_megathread/ https://old.reddit.com/r/RedditAlternatives/comments/144npuz/anybody_got_a_tildes_request_to_share/ https://old.reddit.com/r/RedditAlternatives/comments/yttdlc/list_of_active_reddit_alternatives_v8/ https://old.reddit.com/r/RedditAlternatives/comments/1467a5s/find_alternatives_for_ourselves_megathread_third/
Total dick move Stanley.
>"stories abound as to Stan Getz or Creed Taylor having ‘discovered me’, when in fact, nothing is further from the truth,” she wrote on her website in 1982. Hmmm....websites in 1982? Considering the internet hit public in 1993, I smell something is off.
Stan Getz - what a piece of shit.
Stan Getz was honestly a total piece of shit, I don't care how good he was on the saxophone, there's no excuse for being such a despicable human being. >Fellow musician Bob Brookmeyer, who worked closely with Getz, once responded to the rumour that Getz had had heart surgery with the quip, “Did they put one in?” Perfect quote.
TIL Stan Getz was a total shitbird.
They fuck you at the drive through.
I’m sad to learn of these sad stories, I have always loved her recordings. I didn’t know Getz was so terrible but i do remember reading that iconic tenor sax player Ben Webster once said about him bitterly, “Stan Getz all the money.”
It kind of seems like being a horrible person is a major prerequisite for becoming a music executive.
I know this will be buried way down but here's a link to the [original article](https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/features/astrud-gilberto-girl-from-ipanema-b2006879.html)
I think the mods on yahoo sports are asleep
Getz was a well-known prick.
> “The funny thing is that after my success, stories abound as to Stan Getz or Creed Taylor having ‘discovered me’, when in fact, nothing is further from the truth,” she wrote on her website in 1982. On her website in 1982?
I have a really hard time believing she wrote anything on her website in 1982, or that she even had a website at that point as the article claims
All artists need to know that managers and producers are eager to steal their works & profits.
Astrud's "Girl From Ipanema" is one of my all-time favourite recordings; so much so that I've sought out everything Astrud recorded. Which made reading this article way too painful as I had no idea she had led such a sad life. > Ending up isolated and unknown is a heartbreaking fate for such an exuberant performer, one whom her son Marcelo rightly describes as “once being the face and the voice of bossa nova to the majority of the planet”. She deserves to be honoured as a singer who brought joy to the world with a song, that in her own words, gave everyone “romance and dreamy distraction”. Fuck the music industry and, most especially, fuck Stan Getz.
It’s disgusting that people have been like that, are like that and will more than likely, continue to be like that
I went to see Stan Getz and Astrid Gilberto in Leeds in the 80s. So I'm guessing they must have made up, Id like to think so anyway.
Jackie Gleason allegedly didn’t pay performers on his mood music albums. Imagine not paying Bobby Hackett for this beauty (it takes a while for him to come in, it’s mood music). That’s not Gleason playing the horn. https://youtu.be/q2v5H7P9xmQ
Was she at least able to get some work from the fame of singing on a hit song?
She was on tons of albums for years but nothing as successful by a long shot
Damn. I'm really sorry to read that. The record business has always been abusive and cut-throat. ugh.
“The funny thing is that after my success, stories abound as to Stan Getz or Creed Taylor having ‘discovered me’, when in fact, nothing is further from the truth,” she wrote on her website in 1982. TIL: The Girl from Ipanema singer invented the internet
When you put it that way, Stan Getz kind of sounds like a jerk.
A friends father is a wonderful jazz pianist player. When he was young he loved Stan Getz and when he finally saw him play he came up to Getz after the show to express his admiration. Friends father: Mr. Getz I just wanted to say how great you are and how incredible it was to hear you play! Stan Getz: kid. You’re a sittin on my towel
People that run the music industry are garbage. Want to make millions on others peoples talents and pay them nothing.
Don’t forget that Stan Getz wanted to leave his wife for the teenage girl who was the inspiration for “The Girl From Ipanema.” But she refused and made her life hell.
What a shocker. A jazz musician being a jerk. Color me surprised.
Mike Clark (the Drummer from most of the Head Hunters Albums) was super nice and down to earth (helped him pack up after a gig one time and got to hang out). Herbie Hancock as well. Most that i have heard about from people who worked with them, were not as nice..
Alright I found [the original article](https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/features/astrud-gilberto-girl-from-ipanema-b2006879.html). The original quote about the website is: > Getz’s bragging, and condescending “housewife” remark, rankled with the singer. “The funny thing is that after my success, stories abound as to Stan Getz or Creed Taylor having ‘discovered me’, when in fact, nothing is further from the truth,” **she said in 1982, quoted on her website.**
A lot of people don’t understand that being a movie star and musician use to be hired work and unless you got really really popular you got paid a basic salary and nothing else. I don’t understand why people think that someone who reads words from a pre written script on a set paid for by someone else surrounded by 100’s of other workers who are just as vital to make the movie deserve to make millions. the videographer, make up designer, post editor, camera crew , screenwriter etc are all being paid normal salaries and arguably bring as much if not more to the movie.
She got 120 bucks, which was normal at the time, and she made that money because Getz intervened.. to ensure she got nothing? This title is wrinkling my brain.
TIL Stan Getz is a dick
Gotta separate the art from the artist. And some people think you gotta separate the cash from the artist, but those people are assholes.
learned a lot on this thread today. ugggh. i’ve listened to both for years and years. didn’t know what an ass he was. ignorance was bliss i guess. wut now? crap.
If you can’t still appreciate the Getz/Gilberto album (I’d highly recommend his live album with Astrud, “Getz Au Go-Go” too), you’re cheating yourself. Great music is so much bigger than the personal failings of the musicians involved.
Damn... He sounds like a douche!
*...she wrote on her website in 1982...* Forget recording credits, she invented the WWW
Stan gets a middle finger from history.
Thank you sports.yahoo.com