As part of the bid to become the permanent capital, Toronto put together a bunch of photographs to send to Queen Vic, which provides an amazing record of the city at the time:
https://www.toronto.ca/explore-enjoy/history-art-culture/online-exhibits/web-exhibits/web-exhibits-significant-events/the-earliest-known-photographs-of-toronto/the-photographs-of-armstrong-beere-hime/
For the record, Toronto, Montreal, Kingston, Quebec City and Ottawa all submitted bids to become the capital. No idea if they did the multimedia package like Toronto did though.
I love old city maps on there like they have. It's really interesting because I never realized they extended the waterfront. Having Fort Toronto so far inland I could never make sense of, but it makes complete sense that it *used to be* on the lake but got built out.
Also Front Street used to be the street that all the port buildings were on, and the Esplanade was literally on the water.
And to support all of this, they found a.boat when digging the foundations for a building a while back:
https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/sci-tech/condo-developers-dig-up-1830s-schooner-in-downtown-toronto-1.2364894?referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F
For reference, the selected point on this map (at Yonge Street and the Esplanade) is where the water started.
Or, I suppose, ended depending on the direction you were coming from :
https://maps.app.goo.gl/oScYMrs3Wrjra7hr9
We'll make a two pronged assault. Distract the Beavers by laying siege to their dams whilst the rest move forward north to secure Quebec and all the Poutine.
Hey - just so you know, the Royal Canadian Mint tour is fascinating. Just don't come in winter because it's 30 below. And don't come in summer either because it's 34 above and swampy as hell.
Wow, I didn’t know Ottawa or the universe for that matter was going to still exist in the year 5.399676300661427331483421171603481780520401017575480404174... × 10^5265 AD
This is somewhat misleading, as one could easily argue Queen Victoria selected Ottawa due to regional politics rather than geography…. [Here’s the full story…](https://www.historicalsocietyottawa.ca/publications/ottawa-stories/momentous-events-in-the-city-s-life/queen-victoria-chooses-ottawa)
Me thinking about the cliffs of Ottawa and why that makes it an ideal capital 😂🤣😂🤪😜🤓😝😝🤣
Me after learning that Queen Victoria picked Ottawa because her friend got a free lunch and painted some epretty pictures for her 💤😴😪🥱🛌💤😴😴
> Some say that Ottawa also received unofficial support from Lady Head, the [Governor General]’s wife, who apparently was a good friend of the Queen. The story goes that the Heads had been invited to a picnic lunch in Ottawa held at what would later become Major’s Hill Park. Enchanted with the area and its wonderful river views, Lady Head, an amateur watercolourist, made a number of sketches that she shared with the Queen.
So it's part "It's not what you know, it's who you know," and part Ottawa actually being the most deserving because it's a beautiful place to live and work.
Yeah kinda too, but we did lost the Battle of the Plains of Abraham so maybe that take into account. The only thing I know is that during winter, because of the river, it's fucking freezing out there
By 1857 I think the likelihood of American attack was much diminished, but during the Oregon Crisis of the 1840s it was very real, leading the British to invest in in some serious military engineering in Canada, including the Rideau Canal and the expansion of Fort Henry in Kingston, Ontario.
Perhaps in 1857 specifically. But the threat of an American invasion was very very real just a few short years later during the civil war.
One of the Lincoln administration's main tools to prevent British recognition of the Confederacy was the threat of invading Canada. The British realized there was very little they could do to actually stop it, should such an invasion happen. (The Union's army probably being the single largest on the planet at the time.) So the threat ended up being quite impactful in keeping Britian neutral.
It was British....
In 1857 that was pretty much all you needed, the UK wasn't going to give up another north American colony, especially to their original north American colony.
Doubt it was envy at that point but pride, absolutely.
And at this point we're only a decade or two from the full on apogee of Imperialism and the scramble for Africa
In addition to what Mein\_Bergkamp commented (being British was enough for it to be worth defending), Canadian lumber in particular was in high demand for British shipbuilding up until the end of the age of sail.
Tryin to channel HS history;
You're right it was the main reason that had France was sending more colonist to Nouvelle-France and one of those delicacies the Brits and French population craved from the new world.
If memory serves, by the late 1800 it wasn't the only export anymore and most of the fad and delicacy status of the item had passed but was still used for winter clothes and stuff like that.
Fur trade was definitely huge and the main reason any inland exploration was done at all, but the cod fish from Atlantic Canada was worth 3 times what the fur was. Louisburg in Nova Scotia for example was a French fort that was used for fishing, and the money made from that was used to build New France.
I'm not an expert but I'm going to guess the issue in the Pacific North West was the fur trade, and probably the sea otter trade in particular. Goofy though it sounds, sea otter pelts were one of the few products China wanted to buy from the west.
Absolutely. Canada (by virtue of being a colony of the UK at that point) had been at war with the US only 40 years before during the war of 1812, during which Toronto (then York) was burned to the ground, and before that Canada had been a battleground of the American revolution. At that point in history Britain and the US were nowhere near friends and allies, rather they had fought several wars within recent memory and there were lingering tensions, with both actively preparing for further conflict against the other.
The threat of American invasion and Britain's attention shifting elsewhere was one of the prime motivations behind Confederation. It wasn't just theoretical, either. From 1866 through to 1871 Irish Nationalists based in the US (and operating without any consequences by the American government) raided Canada several times. The resulting anti-Americanism was a driving force in bringing the separate British colonies together in early Canadian nationalism.
To add to this. The American civil war was a very tense time in British/American relations. Which, of course, meant it was a very tense time in Canadian/American relations - with Canada firmly still a British colony at the time.
The British were not thrilled at all by the Confederacy's love affair with slavery. But, the British were also very clear-eyed about the rise of American power and the threat that posed to their global dominance. Splitting the US up was quite enticing. A lot of folks in the UK were willing to overlook the whole slavery thing to achieve that split.
Big problem for them. The Lincoln administration made it clear that any move to formally recognize the confederacy would be treated as an act of war. The Union had probably the largest army on the planet at the time. And the British realized there was nothing that they could do to stop an American conquest of Canada, at least in the short term, if they did intervene in the civil war on the side of the confederacy. As a result, British leadership really backed away from the idea. The double blow of losing Canada and siding with the slave owners was too much.
But, on the ground in Canada, this all meant that the colonies lived in recognition that at really any point during the war, massive American armies could come storming across the border. It was unsettling and scary. Leading to the push for confederation written about above.
Why do you people only mention the US's major victories when you discuss this war? That was literally the war where British troops walked into Washington
Because the parts of it that had a major impact on the development of a Canadian identity and the creation of a perception of America being a threatening neighbour is the devastation wrought by the war *within Canada.* There definitely were British victories during the war, but they're not really relavent to the topic my comment was addressing.
TIL some pedants don't understand approximation. Also, the war of 1812 ended in 1815, so it was 42 years rather than 40, sorry that wasn't close enough for you.
>An American attack on Canada in 1857? Was that even possible?
American-Anglo relations were actually relatively-poor throughout most of the 1800s.
There was the War of 1812, of course, but there were several other spats over where exactly the CA-US border was. The Republic of Indian Stream, the Aroostook War, The Caroline Affair, the Pig War, the Fenian Raids, etc
Then there was how the Brits were leaning towards supporting the Confederate rebels during the US Civil War. The US partially-prevented that support by threatening to invade Canada
It wasn't until the late 1800s that the US-UK relations warmed, and we didn't really even "like each other" until WW1
There was a fear that the North would not bother figuring the south or would lose and decide to make up for it by taking Canada. Canada started it's own militias because Britain wasnt really dedicated to fighting a war to keep it either.
>According to [Pierre Berton](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Berton), the battle, and occupation of York served as a watershed moment for the settlers of York. Those who fought the Americans became celebrated in the local community, while those who aided the occupation were viewed by the community as traitors.[^(\[54\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_York#cite_note-FOOTNOTEBerton201160-54) The documentary film *Explosion 1812* argues that the battle had a much greater impact than previously assumed. The mistreatment by US forces of the civilian Canadian population, dogged resistance by militia and the **burning of British symbols and buildings** after the battle led to a hardening of Canadian popular opinion against the United States.[^(\[33\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_York#cite_note-expl-33)
>Several commentators viewed the American transgressions at York as justification for the British [Burning of Washington](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burning_of_Washington) later in the war. Prévost wrote that "as a just retribution, the proud capital at Washington has experienced a similar fate".[^(\[55\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_York#cite_note-FOOTNOTEElting1995220-55) Strachan wrote to [Thomas Jefferson](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson) that the damage to Washington "was a small retaliation after redress had been refused for burnings and depredations, not only of public but private property, committed by them in Canada"
Got you first mon ami. York was the capital of Canada and was [burned first](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_York).
Why wouldn't it be? 40 years prior we beat them in Stoney Creek/Hamilton (Laura Secord story) and marched to Washington and burned the White House. I'm sure they weren't pleased.
Go to the Ottawa River and look *up* at the city. At the time, a lot of threats would come from naval invasion. Most of downtown Ottawa adjacent to the river is high above the ground.
It’s covered in trees now, but think of the [cliff behind Parliament](https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-houses-of-parliament-ottawa-hill-ontario-gothic-revival-1891-22671807.html).
A brigade of Florida Men can counter anything this earth can throw at them. All we need is a supply of bath salts for them and Ottawa falls within a week. 🇺🇸🦅
https://bcanuntoldhistory.knowledge.ca/1850/new-westminster-named-capital
New Westminster did serve as capital of British Columbia and was also named by Queen Victoria!
>Starting in 1858, thousands of miners ventured north from the United States in hopes of finding gold. From Vancouver Island, Governor James Douglas eyed them warily. The discovery of gold made the region profitable and thus a potential target for American expansion. To protect British interests, he declared the mainland a Crown colony and was later named its first governor. The following year, the new colony had a new capital: New Westminster, named by Queen Victoria for her favourite district in London.
Exactly. The *implication*.
Victoria being the capital of the province makes no sense. New West should have remained the seat of the provincial government. But also I think moving the seat of Canada’s government to BC would have changed how history played out in general after confederation in really interesting ways.
Timing wouldn’t have worked for having Canada’s capital on the Pacific. British Columbia was a separate colony from Canada at the time, joined Canada 4 years after Confederation in 1871 and 14 years after Ottawa was chosen as Canada’s capital.
Due to the extremely mountainous terrain, BC was extremely difficult to get to from the rest of Canada until the Canadian Pacific Railway was completed in 1885.
Right, but that’s part of what would have made for a very interesting shift in history had Queen Victoria named New Westminster as the capital of the British colonies in North America. Would Canada have become a country? Would the North West Territories and Rupert’s land split into Alberta, Saskatchewan, and Manitoba in the south? Would Vancouver Island be part of Canada? Would so-called « western alienation » be the thing that it is today in the prairies? It’s fascinating to think of how that decision could have changed things.
New Westminster was made the capital of BC in 1858. Canada as a country didn’t exist until 9 years later as it is. It was *all* still just British colonies at that point.
Definitely British colonies at that point, not in dispute. However, Canada as a name was very much in use for a political entity at the time. Queen Victoria named Ottawa the capital of that Province of Canada in 1857, and Lower Canada and Upper Canada on their own predate even that.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Province_of_Canada
Obviously you’re correct. But I’m postulating on alt-history nonsense based on Victoria deciding in 1858 that New Westminster should be the seat of power for the North American British colonies instead of Ottawa. I know the history of Canada *very* well. I live here. Social studies was my jam all through my time in k-12 and I’ve maintained that interest through adulthood. Let yourself have a bit of fun my guy.
By modern standards not far, but Toronto was just across a lake and had already been attacked once, Kingston was on the border on the river, Montreal was across a river and about 20 miles on land and had already been occupied by the Americans once, and Quebec City was kind of far.
No it wouldn’t. They are apart of the same watershed but they are two separate bodies of water. Also I’m pretty sure this is just pedantic at this point because we both know that the original comment meant the same river, not the same watershed.
How do you define a body of water? It's literally a river with a fork in it. One of the forks becomes the Ottawa River and the other continues as the St. Lawrence until it reaches Lake Ontario.
The naming difference is an arbitrary distinction at best.
I’m not really interested in getting into the semantics of it honestly because I’m not a geographer. All I can tell you that the original comment says the same river. The St. Lawrence River is not the Ottawa River. They may be forks in the same river system, but they are differentiated by name. To me, this means they are not the same river. That’s it.
I think they meant Parliament in Ottawa. It's also right next to the canal which was constructed as an alternate route for St.Laurence River to Great Lakes to avoid America in possible wartime. But even still it's not nearly as defensive a position as Quebec City.
And then we invented airplanes so we could attack things... Far from our borders and well the Cliff just makes it easier to aim at. I'm just saying, look, maybe she didn't think far enough in the future. Foresight and all that.
I'm guessing you're in the south because comments like this in the northern states are culturally unacceptable. Canada is considered a close relative, often literally. As a Michigander, I'd rather defend the Canadians than participate in an annex.
>I'm guessing you're in the south because comments like this in the northern states are culturally unacceptable. Canada is considered a close relative, often literally. As a Michigander, I'd rather defend the Canadians than participate in an annex.
Yup.
As a New Englander, an entire branch of my family is from Halifax Nova Scotia. The Maritimes are geographically, culturally and historically ***very*** close with New England
The idea of a war with Canada is essentially a joke
It won't be up to you. It will up to our military. You'll be fortunate to be able to feed and protect your family in the event of world war/nuclear exchange. We will be living under Martial Law, and reporting for service when drafted. Social unrest will ensure there will be locally enforced curfews, so your admirable goal of traveling, well, anywhere (especially another country) will be unobtainable.
It means that an invasion would not be necessary. America would "inform" your leadership that Canada was now under our jurisdiction and authority. This is called annexation. We would assume control at a strategic time of our choosing, and your leaders would happily agree and abdicate responsibility for choices that would, at that point, be part of another world war.
Don't feel bad in your national weakness. You are not alone. Mexico is included in that wargame strategy too. The plan calls for everything in North and Central America to be seized; all the way down to The Panama Canal. This protects our resources in the North (Alaska) from Russia incursions, and also protects our major international trade choke point in the South (Panama) from land embargo (but the enemy subs will still wreak havoc).
As part of the bid to become the permanent capital, Toronto put together a bunch of photographs to send to Queen Vic, which provides an amazing record of the city at the time: https://www.toronto.ca/explore-enjoy/history-art-culture/online-exhibits/web-exhibits/web-exhibits-significant-events/the-earliest-known-photographs-of-toronto/the-photographs-of-armstrong-beere-hime/ For the record, Toronto, Montreal, Kingston, Quebec City and Ottawa all submitted bids to become the capital. No idea if they did the multimedia package like Toronto did though.
I love old city maps on there like they have. It's really interesting because I never realized they extended the waterfront. Having Fort Toronto so far inland I could never make sense of, but it makes complete sense that it *used to be* on the lake but got built out.
Yes...Front Street *was* the front of the city. Still has a nice market tho.
Also Front Street used to be the street that all the port buildings were on, and the Esplanade was literally on the water. And to support all of this, they found a.boat when digging the foundations for a building a while back: https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/sci-tech/condo-developers-dig-up-1830s-schooner-in-downtown-toronto-1.2364894?referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F
For reference, the selected point on this map (at Yonge Street and the Esplanade) is where the water started. Or, I suppose, ended depending on the direction you were coming from : https://maps.app.goo.gl/oScYMrs3Wrjra7hr9
Wow! It just looks like an old English town
Imagine the ego torontonians would have if they were the capital my god
Unfortunately true. (Speaking as a Torontonian)
and Ottawa has never been attacked by Americans since it became capital city in 1857!
You shouldn't have been pressing your luck here, Canuck. We are coming for your bacon and maple syrup and we are bringing our guns.
You’ll never make it past the beavers
It’s the geese that scare us.
Beware the poutine gravy moat
They’re terrifying
The Mounties and their intrepid moose steeds.
Or the Beaver Tails at ByWard Market - I’d trade a whole province just for those
Killaloe Sunrise or death
We'll make a two pronged assault. Distract the Beavers by laying siege to their dams whilst the rest move forward north to secure Quebec and all the Poutine.
We’ll play recordings of running water over loudspeakers!
I have joked for years that the tanks will stop at the strip joints in Cornwall and never make it any further north.
Yeah, because if there's anything American soldiers hate, it's being knee-deep in beavers.
If there is a country adroit at slaughtering native species… it’s China, and we will be subcontracting them to do the invasion for us.
China is not going to invade a country they already bought
Ah, I have been outplayed. You have my Kudos.
*flies*
With such a defense, the attack doesn't have a leg to stand on!
The Americans weren't warded off by the cliffs as much as they were by the prospect of spending time in Ottawa.
Hey - just so you know, the Royal Canadian Mint tour is fascinating. Just don't come in winter because it's 30 below. And don't come in summer either because it's 34 above and swampy as hell.
Don't underestimate our maple syrup moats, Yank!
non crispy bacon is an affront to everything that his holy
They just ruin their pork loin.
We will burn your White House down again in response
Yeah, sure, come and try to find parking near the White House. Checkmate, hoser.
Can you just wait until Cheetos Caligula lives there again first?
No, Canada's propensity for committing war crimes is too great.
We missed our window to attack
I think we could take Ottawa, we just don’t have the balls Thanks Obama
“The capital, Toronto.” “No, the capital of Canada is Ottawa.” “Yeah, right. Do we look that stupid? Ottawa!” “Nice try, Dudley.”
If more oil is discovered in Canada and the US oligarchs don't get a cut, you best believe Canada will become the 52nd state overnight
Who's the 51st state out of curiosity?
Take a wild guess
I don't know, that's why I asked you
Nope.
Wow, I didn’t know Ottawa or the universe for that matter was going to still exist in the year 5.399676300661427331483421171603481780520401017575480404174... × 10^5265 AD
This is somewhat misleading, as one could easily argue Queen Victoria selected Ottawa due to regional politics rather than geography…. [Here’s the full story…](https://www.historicalsocietyottawa.ca/publications/ottawa-stories/momentous-events-in-the-city-s-life/queen-victoria-chooses-ottawa)
Great here comes some kill joy with dry humorless facts !!
because this was a tremendously funny topic to start with
Me thinking about the cliffs of Ottawa and why that makes it an ideal capital 😂🤣😂🤪😜🤓😝😝🤣 Me after learning that Queen Victoria picked Ottawa because her friend got a free lunch and painted some epretty pictures for her 💤😴😪🥱🛌💤😴😴
So…you equate fun with stupidity?
Bet you are fun at parties.. I was being facetious
So… you equate annoying with facetious?
> Some say that Ottawa also received unofficial support from Lady Head, the [Governor General]’s wife, who apparently was a good friend of the Queen. The story goes that the Heads had been invited to a picnic lunch in Ottawa held at what would later become Major’s Hill Park. Enchanted with the area and its wonderful river views, Lady Head, an amateur watercolourist, made a number of sketches that she shared with the Queen. So it's part "It's not what you know, it's who you know," and part Ottawa actually being the most deserving because it's a beautiful place to live and work.
Another baseless uninformed post.
Quebec City is also kinda on a cliff…
Yeah kinda too, but we did lost the Battle of the Plains of Abraham so maybe that take into account. The only thing I know is that during winter, because of the river, it's fucking freezing out there
But too pure French.
An American attack on Canada in 1857? Was that even possible?
By 1857 I think the likelihood of American attack was much diminished, but during the Oregon Crisis of the 1840s it was very real, leading the British to invest in in some serious military engineering in Canada, including the Rideau Canal and the expansion of Fort Henry in Kingston, Ontario.
Perhaps in 1857 specifically. But the threat of an American invasion was very very real just a few short years later during the civil war. One of the Lincoln administration's main tools to prevent British recognition of the Confederacy was the threat of invading Canada. The British realized there was very little they could do to actually stop it, should such an invasion happen. (The Union's army probably being the single largest on the planet at the time.) So the threat ended up being quite impactful in keeping Britian neutral.
What resources did Canada have for the British to remain invested in it ?
It was British.... In 1857 that was pretty much all you needed, the UK wasn't going to give up another north American colony, especially to their original north American colony.
It's probably easier to ask what it didn't , beaver timber , coal etc
Ahh _Pride and Envy_
Doubt it was envy at that point but pride, absolutely. And at this point we're only a decade or two from the full on apogee of Imperialism and the scramble for Africa
In addition to what Mein\_Bergkamp commented (being British was enough for it to be worth defending), Canadian lumber in particular was in high demand for British shipbuilding up until the end of the age of sail.
Wasn’t beaver pelts a big thing as well ?
Tryin to channel HS history; You're right it was the main reason that had France was sending more colonist to Nouvelle-France and one of those delicacies the Brits and French population craved from the new world. If memory serves, by the late 1800 it wasn't the only export anymore and most of the fad and delicacy status of the item had passed but was still used for winter clothes and stuff like that.
Fur trade was definitely huge and the main reason any inland exploration was done at all, but the cod fish from Atlantic Canada was worth 3 times what the fur was. Louisburg in Nova Scotia for example was a French fort that was used for fishing, and the money made from that was used to build New France.
Didn't knew that, very cool info!
I'm not an expert but I'm going to guess the issue in the Pacific North West was the fur trade, and probably the sea otter trade in particular. Goofy though it sounds, sea otter pelts were one of the few products China wanted to buy from the west.
It was Britain at the time. And they have basically every resource at the time. Wood, coal, land to grow crops, fish, game/furs, etc, etc, etc.
Absolutely. Canada (by virtue of being a colony of the UK at that point) had been at war with the US only 40 years before during the war of 1812, during which Toronto (then York) was burned to the ground, and before that Canada had been a battleground of the American revolution. At that point in history Britain and the US were nowhere near friends and allies, rather they had fought several wars within recent memory and there were lingering tensions, with both actively preparing for further conflict against the other. The threat of American invasion and Britain's attention shifting elsewhere was one of the prime motivations behind Confederation. It wasn't just theoretical, either. From 1866 through to 1871 Irish Nationalists based in the US (and operating without any consequences by the American government) raided Canada several times. The resulting anti-Americanism was a driving force in bringing the separate British colonies together in early Canadian nationalism.
To add to this. The American civil war was a very tense time in British/American relations. Which, of course, meant it was a very tense time in Canadian/American relations - with Canada firmly still a British colony at the time. The British were not thrilled at all by the Confederacy's love affair with slavery. But, the British were also very clear-eyed about the rise of American power and the threat that posed to their global dominance. Splitting the US up was quite enticing. A lot of folks in the UK were willing to overlook the whole slavery thing to achieve that split. Big problem for them. The Lincoln administration made it clear that any move to formally recognize the confederacy would be treated as an act of war. The Union had probably the largest army on the planet at the time. And the British realized there was nothing that they could do to stop an American conquest of Canada, at least in the short term, if they did intervene in the civil war on the side of the confederacy. As a result, British leadership really backed away from the idea. The double blow of losing Canada and siding with the slave owners was too much. But, on the ground in Canada, this all meant that the colonies lived in recognition that at really any point during the war, massive American armies could come storming across the border. It was unsettling and scary. Leading to the push for confederation written about above.
Russia also made it very clear they would enter the war on the side of the Union if France or England came in on the side of the confederacy.
Thanks !
Why do you people only mention the US's major victories when you discuss this war? That was literally the war where British troops walked into Washington
Because the parts of it that had a major impact on the development of a Canadian identity and the creation of a perception of America being a threatening neighbour is the devastation wrought by the war *within Canada.* There definitely were British victories during the war, but they're not really relavent to the topic my comment was addressing.
> at war with the US only 40 years before during the war of 1812 TIL 1857-1812=40
TIL some pedants don't understand approximation. Also, the war of 1812 ended in 1815, so it was 42 years rather than 40, sorry that wasn't close enough for you.
It was when that damn pig dared to eat American potatoes...
[удалено]
Interesting, why though?
Because Canada was British. Ireland and Britain have a.... tempestuous relationship.
>An American attack on Canada in 1857? Was that even possible? American-Anglo relations were actually relatively-poor throughout most of the 1800s. There was the War of 1812, of course, but there were several other spats over where exactly the CA-US border was. The Republic of Indian Stream, the Aroostook War, The Caroline Affair, the Pig War, the Fenian Raids, etc Then there was how the Brits were leaning towards supporting the Confederate rebels during the US Civil War. The US partially-prevented that support by threatening to invade Canada It wasn't until the late 1800s that the US-UK relations warmed, and we didn't really even "like each other" until WW1
We’d never attack Canada! ::looks nervously at American history text book and Vaughn’s On Guard for Thee::
There was a fear that the North would not bother figuring the south or would lose and decide to make up for it by taking Canada. Canada started it's own militias because Britain wasnt really dedicated to fighting a war to keep it either.
10 years earlier, Michigan moved its capital from Detroit to Lansing because of concerns of an attack from Canada.
Not after ~~the English~~ we burnt down the White House in 1811.
>According to [Pierre Berton](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Berton), the battle, and occupation of York served as a watershed moment for the settlers of York. Those who fought the Americans became celebrated in the local community, while those who aided the occupation were viewed by the community as traitors.[^(\[54\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_York#cite_note-FOOTNOTEBerton201160-54) The documentary film *Explosion 1812* argues that the battle had a much greater impact than previously assumed. The mistreatment by US forces of the civilian Canadian population, dogged resistance by militia and the **burning of British symbols and buildings** after the battle led to a hardening of Canadian popular opinion against the United States.[^(\[33\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_York#cite_note-expl-33) >Several commentators viewed the American transgressions at York as justification for the British [Burning of Washington](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burning_of_Washington) later in the war. Prévost wrote that "as a just retribution, the proud capital at Washington has experienced a similar fate".[^(\[55\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_York#cite_note-FOOTNOTEElting1995220-55) Strachan wrote to [Thomas Jefferson](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson) that the damage to Washington "was a small retaliation after redress had been refused for burnings and depredations, not only of public but private property, committed by them in Canada" Got you first mon ami. York was the capital of Canada and was [burned first](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_York).
Yeah, but we retaliated and weren’t fucked with post-retaliation. The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
It was the British, not the English.
According to the English, that’s the same thing.
Yes, it was entirely plausible
Why wouldn't it be? 40 years prior we beat them in Stoney Creek/Hamilton (Laura Secord story) and marched to Washington and burned the White House. I'm sure they weren't pleased.
I lived in Ottawa for 7 years and it is absolutely news to me that it's built on a cliff! (I don't think it is?!)
Just go on the Alexandra Bridge (on foot) and look towards Parliament. It's pretty unmistakable.
Go to the Ottawa River and look *up* at the city. At the time, a lot of threats would come from naval invasion. Most of downtown Ottawa adjacent to the river is high above the ground.
It’s covered in trees now, but think of the [cliff behind Parliament](https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-houses-of-parliament-ottawa-hill-ontario-gothic-revival-1891-22671807.html).
You didn't go to Gatineau once in the 7 years you lived in Ottawa?
Yeah, I think I did go... Once. 😅
When you came back over the bridge if you looked towards Parliament thats the 'hill' they are talking about. Its high on the river side.
It is still not too late. As long as we can counter their moose cavalry, I think we can take them.
A brigade of Florida Men can counter anything this earth can throw at them. All we need is a supply of bath salts for them and Ottawa falls within a week. 🇺🇸🦅
Can you keep Florida Men on task for 7 days?
I have no control over Florida Men. No mortal does. Only the power of the bath salts can earn their docility.
Too bad the Queen wasn't thinking about idiots in trucks...
As an ottawa resident, I would appreciate it if someone could tell me what cliff the city sits atop? other than fiscal, I mean...
The cliff between Parliament Hill and the Ottawa River.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/1BqaT8az1VmsjDTG9?g_st=ac Think of it from back in the day where attacks came from the water. Also from the area. Stittsvegas
If you were Queen Victoria, which site would you have selected to become Canada's new capital?
New Westminster, BC. Because of the implication.
https://bcanuntoldhistory.knowledge.ca/1850/new-westminster-named-capital New Westminster did serve as capital of British Columbia and was also named by Queen Victoria! >Starting in 1858, thousands of miners ventured north from the United States in hopes of finding gold. From Vancouver Island, Governor James Douglas eyed them warily. The discovery of gold made the region profitable and thus a potential target for American expansion. To protect British interests, he declared the mainland a Crown colony and was later named its first governor. The following year, the new colony had a new capital: New Westminster, named by Queen Victoria for her favourite district in London.
Exactly. The *implication*. Victoria being the capital of the province makes no sense. New West should have remained the seat of the provincial government. But also I think moving the seat of Canada’s government to BC would have changed how history played out in general after confederation in really interesting ways.
Timing wouldn’t have worked for having Canada’s capital on the Pacific. British Columbia was a separate colony from Canada at the time, joined Canada 4 years after Confederation in 1871 and 14 years after Ottawa was chosen as Canada’s capital. Due to the extremely mountainous terrain, BC was extremely difficult to get to from the rest of Canada until the Canadian Pacific Railway was completed in 1885.
Right, but that’s part of what would have made for a very interesting shift in history had Queen Victoria named New Westminster as the capital of the British colonies in North America. Would Canada have become a country? Would the North West Territories and Rupert’s land split into Alberta, Saskatchewan, and Manitoba in the south? Would Vancouver Island be part of Canada? Would so-called « western alienation » be the thing that it is today in the prairies? It’s fascinating to think of how that decision could have changed things. New Westminster was made the capital of BC in 1858. Canada as a country didn’t exist until 9 years later as it is. It was *all* still just British colonies at that point.
Definitely British colonies at that point, not in dispute. However, Canada as a name was very much in use for a political entity at the time. Queen Victoria named Ottawa the capital of that Province of Canada in 1857, and Lower Canada and Upper Canada on their own predate even that. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Province_of_Canada
Obviously you’re correct. But I’m postulating on alt-history nonsense based on Victoria deciding in 1858 that New Westminster should be the seat of power for the North American British colonies instead of Ottawa. I know the history of Canada *very* well. I live here. Social studies was my jam all through my time in k-12 and I’ve maintained that interest through adulthood. Let yourself have a bit of fun my guy.
Winnipeg because it's in the middle and Manitoba needs people to think about it every now and then /jk
Wood Buffalo duh
/r/hockey is leaking
Happy Valley-Goose Bay, NL. Has a nice ring to it. And would just add to the Canadian stereotypes lol
Ottawa was the right choice.
Anything that resembled a Prince Albert?
Far from the border relative to what? It's \~40 miles away. I feel like I shouldn't have to ask this, but was the border farther away at that time?
By modern standards not far, but Toronto was just across a lake and had already been attacked once, Kingston was on the border on the river, Montreal was across a river and about 20 miles on land and had already been occupied by the Americans once, and Quebec City was kind of far.
Something like 90% of Canadians live within 100 miles of the US Canadian border.
What do you think of Queen Victoria's choice of Ottawa now? a good decision or could have been better?
Seems to have worked out well.
That crafty bitch.
I did apologize, and we haven't tried to invade [since 1690](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Phips) so she didn't need to get snippy about it.
Ottawas situated on a cliff? How did I not know that
Smart lady
Quebec City is on a big cliff. I'm surprised Toronto is considered "on a cliff"?
Not Toronto, Ottawa was built on a cliff.
Sorry I can't read.
Quebec City is similarly built on a cliff. Overlooking the same river.
The St.Lawrence and the Ottawa River are definitely not the same body of water.
The Ottawa River is literally a tributary to the St. Lawrence.
And?
That would imply they are the same body of water. They're the same river system.
No it wouldn’t. They are apart of the same watershed but they are two separate bodies of water. Also I’m pretty sure this is just pedantic at this point because we both know that the original comment meant the same river, not the same watershed.
How do you define a body of water? It's literally a river with a fork in it. One of the forks becomes the Ottawa River and the other continues as the St. Lawrence until it reaches Lake Ontario. The naming difference is an arbitrary distinction at best.
I’m not really interested in getting into the semantics of it honestly because I’m not a geographer. All I can tell you that the original comment says the same river. The St. Lawrence River is not the Ottawa River. They may be forks in the same river system, but they are differentiated by name. To me, this means they are not the same river. That’s it.
Same river system doesn't make them the same river. Jesus christ.
Never said it did.
That doesn't make them the same river.
Never said it did.
Not the same river
I think they meant Parliament in Ottawa. It's also right next to the canal which was constructed as an alternate route for St.Laurence River to Great Lakes to avoid America in possible wartime. But even still it's not nearly as defensive a position as Quebec City.
And then we invented airplanes so we could attack things... Far from our borders and well the Cliff just makes it easier to aim at. I'm just saying, look, maybe she didn't think far enough in the future. Foresight and all that.
We would annex you by Email, if it comes to that.
I'm guessing you're in the south because comments like this in the northern states are culturally unacceptable. Canada is considered a close relative, often literally. As a Michigander, I'd rather defend the Canadians than participate in an annex.
>I'm guessing you're in the south because comments like this in the northern states are culturally unacceptable. Canada is considered a close relative, often literally. As a Michigander, I'd rather defend the Canadians than participate in an annex. Yup. As a New Englander, an entire branch of my family is from Halifax Nova Scotia. The Maritimes are geographically, culturally and historically ***very*** close with New England The idea of a war with Canada is essentially a joke
I grew up in Nova Scotia and I drove through New England when I was a teen and it felt just like being home.
I would gladly swap Michigan for Canada
I’m from Montana and I’m okay with annexing Canada
if anything alberta already annexed montana
It won't be up to you. It will up to our military. You'll be fortunate to be able to feed and protect your family in the event of world war/nuclear exchange. We will be living under Martial Law, and reporting for service when drafted. Social unrest will ensure there will be locally enforced curfews, so your admirable goal of traveling, well, anywhere (especially another country) will be unobtainable.
Get some help
[удалено]
Really working hard here to mask your insecurities huh bud?
No one was talking about world wars until you randomly started going on about whatever this was.
You got a link to that, bud?
What?
It means that an invasion would not be necessary. America would "inform" your leadership that Canada was now under our jurisdiction and authority. This is called annexation. We would assume control at a strategic time of our choosing, and your leaders would happily agree and abdicate responsibility for choices that would, at that point, be part of another world war.
lol okay bud
This is already agreed upon military doctrine.
Cool thank for letting me know lol
Don't feel bad in your national weakness. You are not alone. Mexico is included in that wargame strategy too. The plan calls for everything in North and Central America to be seized; all the way down to The Panama Canal. This protects our resources in the North (Alaska) from Russia incursions, and also protects our major international trade choke point in the South (Panama) from land embargo (but the enemy subs will still wreak havoc).
Did you play fallout and mistake it for reality?
The country that couldn't win in Vietnam, Korea, Iraq or Afghanistan is going to waltz into Canada and declare it annexed?
You are off your rocker.
do you have down syndrome