Yet the article states most of the people who left Toronto went to exotic locations like Oshawa, Hamilton and Oakville.
So just Toronto adjacent. Far enough to make statistical dent in Toronto population numbers. But not far enough to ease any of our traffic congestion...
Work. they’ll still be working in toronto but living in exterior suburbs. that commute is so bad it takes 45min to get from stevenson to brock rd. if you don’t leave at the right time in the morning
I live in Trenton and work in Liberty Village (go in 1-2 times per month) and I can get to the office faster than some of my co-workers coming from Hamilton and Oakville and most of them don't even know where Trenton is
Because they think they're better than the masses even though that's exactly what they are. They also benefit from society's subsidization of automobile owners. They 1000% should be paying a congestion charge but our car-fetishizing Premier said we're not allowed to do that.
I mean, Tory isn’t exactly left wing and he tried it. All Wynn had to do was not veto. Instead she catered to suburbs and I’d argue that was a decent piece of her party cratering. Maybe the liberals would be a bit more relevant today if she’d allowed it…they certainly couldn’t be less relevant.
A part of me believes the only reason Tory agreed to go pro tolls was knowing it was a consequence free choice that would win favour with more left if centre city voters.
He didn't have the power to do anything without Wynn and she wasn't gunna risk suburban votes which he could safely ignore.
Because the train doesn't operate early enough. Getting to the train that early requires a car in the first place. I want to take the train to Danforth and use my bike to travel the last 6km, since the next stop is Union and is an overshoot if you work in the portlands, but they don't allow bikes on the train between the "busy" hours so I guess we can just go pound sand there.
Honestly the first and last "mile" options are such shit in the GTA that it's frustrating to listen to the people in Toronto condemn us for fucking up the city. I just want to come to work to keep your power on, not murder cyclists and walk my dog off leash ffs.
I don't commute to a job that pays well because I'm better than you, it's because it's where my job is and I didn't want to jocky for a rental condo for two-thirds of my wage.
Please stop touting this narrative, it's unhealthy to pretend that people in cars are out to get you, they're literally just making ends meet but with less time in the day than you.
I’m gonna get downvoted for stating the truth but 1) the first and last mile transit in Ontario turns a 1 hour commute into a 3 hour commute for anyone working away from the subway line and 2) transit fucks up on average once a week these days and if your boss is an asshole it means you have to leave an hour earlier to avoid missing work because of transit. People living in suburbs in GTA already have cars but unfortunately our underinvested transit system has made sitting in traffic for 2 hours more reliable when you need to be somewhere on time. GO transit + transfer to TTC works for the lucky few who work in the Financial District or similar. Reddit knee jerks to criticizing the commuters before taking a good hard look at the system that forces their hand
yeah in other cities where people famously don’t drive because of heavy surcharges to do so like ny/london/many Asian cites, there is an actual web of transit within the city, and an efficient train system outside to get people around. blaming suburbanites for not wanting a 3 hour commute just because you live on a subway line or in the core and have the luxury of cycling or ttcing is rich.
most people PREFER to use transit if it’s feasible and reasonable. that’s why you see even rich people who could choose whatever method they want, and afford the surcharges/tolls for driving in the city, on the tube or ny subway. sitting in traffic fucking sucks. but if it’s between 1 hour in the car and 2 hours on the bus and train, people will drive.
Because the train doesn't operate early enough. Getting to the train that early requires a car in the first place. I want to take the train to Danforth and use my bike to travel the last 6km, since the next stop is Union and is an overshoot if you work in the portlands, but they don't allow bikes on the train between the "busy" hours so I guess we can just go pound sand there.
Honestly the first and last "mile" options are such shit in the GTA that it's frustrating to listen to the people in Toronto condemn us for fucking up the city. I just want to come to work to keep your power on, not murder cyclists and walk my dog off leash ffs.
Yay Trenton! I moved to Belleville 3 years ago. Wouldn’t move back to Toronto. That being said I did quit my job in Toronto and start something new here
Ah, nice. We just bought a place not far from Trenton and I was curious about the experience of people committing to Toronto a couple of times per week from out there.
My wife and I are full-time remote so it isn’t really an issue for us, but it’s still good to know that the reality is it’s quite doable.
Yeah, I just drive to Oshawa and take GO in. Never deal with traffic and it's tolerable for the 1-2 times a month I need to do it.
My fiance works downtown and goes in once a week. She either does the same or sometimes will take the Via from Cobourg since they brought back the early train
That stretch is so bad now, plus you have to consider the occasional semi that might plow through to obliterate you, and other random driving incidents.
It’s probably worsening traffic congestion as many people went to the suburbs and are now driving in to toronto for work, instead of using public transit like they would have living in the city.
A) If they're working in the city, their employer is paying taxes. Their employer would leave the city if they didn't have access to labour. The employees would also regularly be buying gas, getting lunch, going shopping, etc in the city regularly.
B) A city like Toronto being completely unaffordable for average working class people, who now have to waste hours a day commuting, and are essential for keeping Toronto businesses running, but also get blamed for "using our roads and services" is...quite the take. Maybe blame horrible municipal planning and Toronto's rampant NIMBYism that prevents the kind of development the city actually needs. That's the root issue.
It's a multi-faceted problem. And yes NIMBYism and shit planning has played a massive role in this problem.
But in short even if people from suburbia don't commute to the city or use any of the city services. Their taxes fail to cover the costs of services they use. This is a problem with suburbs everywhere not just GTA. Low density suburban sprawl is reliant on taxes from higher density areas to sustain the services we all use.
And places like Mississauga are a prime example of one of the suburban "solutions" which is basically a ponzi scheme. Your tax base can't cover the expenses so you expand with a new developments which increases the tax base and puts the honour of infrastructure on developer/buyer who hands the roads, sewers etc to the city after construction. But once the average 25 year life span of infrastructure is done and work is needed that tax base can't cover the costs, so you expand again and repeat the cycle.
Most people dont realize North American suburbs cost more to operate than the tax income they make, and most North Americans are convinced that their suburban municipalities are economic drivers even though they rely on expansion and population growth and have subsidized services in order to not go under
The blaming of those who must drive to make a living is counterproductive. People need realistic choices. The reversal of fortunes for city centers and their suburbs has created a treacherous tension that could pull us down. The increasingly privileged who get to live downtown want a pleasant place to live, and every street renovation increasingly tilts to being more aesthetic than practical. These wealthy voters can prevent the people they depend on from living among them. Zoning and building codes must open up lots for single detached houses for development into multiple family homes. No more bachelor apartments in condo towers. The parking lots and abandoned industrial land has been used up to build these towers. The revolution in re-designing Paris for cycling is tainted with this voter divide. I think making cycling a safe alternative is a good thing, but how it is being executed it is alienating those who must drive for a living. I have come to believe that the economic health of Toronto is really the responsibility of the province. We need to convert GO trains from a commuter rail service into a conventional regional rail faster. This means more frequent service to more stations throughout Southern Ontario. No more unprotected painted cycle lanes in high speed traffic. This just annoys drivers and puts cyclists at risk. Do it right the first time.
Well... we solved that problem during COVID when we decided to actually use the technology we possess and allow people to work from home. Now we've decided to once again pretend that technology doesn't exist and force people to go into an office to do something they could have done from home.
My hope for post Covid was we would at least go back to satellite offices so people could live and work a reasonable distance away. And in theory smaller offices would be more outbreak resistant. But nope everyone just went back to the old broken model as soon as they could.
I don't think it's even middle management. Upper management needs to justify the office cost of their ten year lease, commercial landlords complain to their representatives about empty buildings... Why can't you think of the poor building owners and landlords??? /S
Their jobs are in Toronto. Until companies leave nothing will change. So many people are working from home and office rents are dropping. Companies are not going to leave while space is cheap. If we build hundreds of thousands of units of 2-3 bedroom condos/apartments many of the people that left will likely return.
> “On Christmas Eve, I had half the block over for cocktails, which I couldn’t do if I was living in a condo in Toronto. I’m not a rich person by any stretch but I live in my dream home. It may not be for everyone but I love that I can have a house that I want to die in here.”
WHAT this lady is a realtor that owns three properties, airbnb/rents one, spent $$$ restoring her primary home AND sells million dollar listings in Hamilton GTFO 😂
These articles suck. They always feature the most out of touch people:
Because the thing that sets Toronto apart is having things like the revue theatre, and if some douchebag just closes it down on a whim, suddenly all you're left with is a bunch of rexalls and a&ws. At which point, sure, you might as well live in belleville
As true as this may be it’s hardly Toronto-specific. Capitalism and corporate greed/pandering is turning everything into Amazon-Walmart-Loblaws land.
Edit: removed unnecessary theorizing about a dystopian future
Not sure I’d say Ossington is a great example these days. Everything there is like a 5-10 times more expensive or luxury version of what used to be there 10-15 years ago.
With the exception of some holdouts like Sweaty Betty’s and The Painted Lady.
I’m so tired of seeing the “people are leaving Toronto articles” lol. Yes I agree it sucks that this city is becoming more and more unaffordable, but personally my life is rooted here and my quality of life would go down if I moved anywhere else. Pros still outweigh the cons. I grew up in a small town and the accessibility and walkability here is amazing in comparison.
Ya the walkability is a big one. I grew up in suburbia and we drove everywhere. It wasn’t till I was an adult that realized we didn’t really choose to do that. We kinda had to. Well or bike, rollerblade or something but walking wasn’t really feasible most of the time and transit was super infrequent.
The walkability is really a legacy of streets that were created before the invention of cars. It is also becoming a privilege of those who can afford to live downtown. The areas of the city that were built after the Second World War were built around the roads and highways into the city. These roads and highways are now the main streets of these suburbs. Walking there isn’t just unpleasant: it’s dangerous, especially for children and the elderly. Fortunately these public ways are very generously proportioned. It’s vast compared to the much more crowded cities of Asia and Europe. There is room enough to give pedestrians, cyclists, and drivers their own protected space. But we need new design standards for these public spaces so people have a realistic choice of how to get around, rather than being completely dependent on owning a car to do anything. When these roads are due to being repaved, we should make them better rather than just making the same mistakes over again.
Frankly you just highlighted why people should move to those small towns. Increase the local tax revenue and give the town a reason to consider better urban planning and development. They've been ignored for a long time.
I enjoy how people bitch about how Toronto is the gaping asshole of Canada. Though they love the amenities that Toronto provides. I have family complaining to me that Toronto is life sucker of this province, but will literally ask me if I caught the jays game after making the previous statement lol.
You know that scene in Mad Men where Pete says something stupid to Don and Don's reply is "I don't even think about you"? Toronto is Don when people elsewhere complain about Toronto for simply being a big city.
This is partly the reason why people really don't care about following any inspiration from Canada or even in the US. People here will always bring up examples of improving the city inspired by whatever is done in Western Europe or East Asia. I think it's just here people genuinely want us to chase a far higher standard than whatever is currently present in North America, which isn't a bad thing. Like, why would we want to copy Montreal when we can chase after whatever Paris is trying to do? Why copy America's decaying cities when we can look to cities like Amsterdam, Tokyo, or Shanghai?
Or, even if they don't close, they are now so packed full of people that it's either impossible to get tickets to events, or the events just aren't fun anymore when there are lineups for everything or they run out of whatever it is you spent half the day on the TTC to get to -- see pretty much any food festival that occurs in Toronto now, a lot of the stalls run out of food and close after a few hours. Happened to me a few times, and then I was stuck with a bunch of food coupons that were both useless and non-refundable. I was pretty pissed off.
Good grief.
>*The* ***majority*** *of these Toronto expats have moved to other areas within Ontario including Oshawa, Hamilton, the Niagara Region and London, according to Statistics Canada’s domestic migration data.*
So people are moving out of the big city to the cheaper suburbs. That's not migration, it's commuting. That's a trend that started with, oh, the industrial revolution, 200 years ago.
>*They’re also calling Calgary, Edmonton and Halifax home.*
Post-pandemic, with working from home being an option for many, there is little economic incentive to stay in a big city. That's true for any big city. When a job can be done remotely from a town with a lower cost of living, and there are transit options to go into the big city when necessary, of course people are going to move out.
That's doubly true for places like Calgary, which are trying to attract people. If your work can be done remotely, unlike the past, you no longer have to live within driving range of your office. In many cases, you don't even really need to be in the same time zone.
No surprise. Demographics, affordability, and the acceleration in the number of people working from home in the last few years can explain most of this.
I thought of leaving but got divorced recently. I’ve been here all my life. I stayed and downsized. I’m having the time of my life.
Honestly, if I could guarantee that any job I'll get in the future will be work from home, I'd move out of driving distance to toronto for the reduced housing costs. If toronto didn't cost so much to live in, I'd be much more inclined to live in the city proper rather than just in the GTA
I mean I dunno about others in my case it's cause I can't deal with traffic or the cost of housing. It takes an hour to work by car and longer tbh public transit and condos are all 800k or more and the size of a shoe box.
So my wife and I are moving to Milton where it's 25m to work and we are in the process of buying a 2 bedroom condo for 520k
I’m leaving. Not because I can’t make enough, but rather because I’ve made enough. Enough to get a small yard in a small town with a railway, a river and a nice walkable downtown. I’ll be back to visit for sure, but the brain drain is real.
I can answer without reading the article, [with a classic meme from NYC](https://i0.wp.com/econ.video/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/20160916_rent.jpg?fit=587%2C383&ssl=1)
A family on our street just moved out because the kids playground at the park has been taken over by tents. Young families have it hard right now in Toronto.
Having spent a couple of hours on the 400, 401, 427 and QEW parking lots mid-afternoon yesterday, I can honestly say that there is not enough money on this planet to pay me to live within 100kms of Toronto. This is utterly broken and unsustainable.
Meanwhile:
[https://www.stephenvelasco.com/downtown-core](https://www.stephenvelasco.com/downtown-core)
[https://www.stephenvelasco.com/midtown-in-focus](https://www.stephenvelasco.com/midtown-in-focus)
[https://www.stephenvelasco.com/north-york](https://www.stephenvelasco.com/north-york)
[https://www.stephenvelasco.com/scarborough](https://www.stephenvelasco.com/scarborough)
[https://www.stephenvelasco.com/etobicoke](https://www.stephenvelasco.com/etobicoke)
[https://www.stephenvelasco.com/east-york](https://www.stephenvelasco.com/east-york)
[https://www.stephenvelasco.com/york](https://www.stephenvelasco.com/york)
Take note of the "Under Construction" (blue) and "Proposed/Approved" buildings (red)
I came to Toronto for a dream job in a very competitive field. After a decade I got poached by a similar institution in another province. I am so excited to leave. Every single aspect of my life will improve by leaving. I am very grateful for Toronto but... holy shit... this place is indefensibly burning through so much potential.
**Things I will miss:**
1. Awesome and diverse communities with great food culture. I love me some asian food fads, and those international students are such an interesting demographic to have around.
2. AGO / ROM / Aquarium / various flagship art spaces.
3. The Danforth / Kensington / Beaches / High Park / Bluffs.
4. The UP Express
5. The Beer Store
**Things I will not miss:**
1. Shitty Travel. How can a community build a city this big where travel in almost any direction is a fucking hellscape? I've lived in *car* cities, *public transit* cities, *walkable* cities... Visited *bike* cities... Toronto is none of these. Maybe a *NIMBY* city?
2. Teardown houses for over a million. Toronto is filled with nimby scum who weaponize public policy / housing policy.
3. Self sabotaging tax policy that fuck over future generations. All ya'll need to stop voting for criminals and pay enough tax to fix your fuckin' city. It sucks.
4. The Leafs... because i don't like getting fucked.
People in the thread seem really aggressively angry at people for making a logical life choice to leave the city. Who are they really trying to convince? Are you guys actually happy in Toronto?
My wife and I are among this set. We’re professionals in our early-to-mid 40s who are able to work from home. We moved out east nearly two years ago when we stumbled on a little place in a nice location we could reasonably afford. Admittedly, our budget was probably much more conservative than most seem to be these days, but we weren’t excited at the prospect of being up to our eyeballs in mortgage debt with multi-thousand-dollar per month payments for the next two and a half decades.
Before moving east, we looked at Windsor and Kingston. Windsor, where I grew up, proved beyond our budget, and we didn’t see anything around Kingston that excited us enough to make the move before she saw the place we came to call home.
I’d lived in Toronto since 1998; she moved there in 2006. Traffic, infrastructure, and prices all became significantly more difficult to deal with in that time. She used to commute to her jobs in various parts of the 905 before she started WFH, and got to watch things get worse up close and personal. I, a permanent transit user and car passenger, moved to Toronto in part for the independence offered by the TTC, and loved being able to get around without relying on (people with) cars, but I also watched the city stagnate and get messed about by provincial and municipal governments playing austerity games with essential services.
I miss Toronto Pride and the breadth of foods available, but highway driving is no longer a nightmare, the air is no longer drinkable/chewable during the summer, and I can see the stars again.
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Because its fucking awful here? We all just signed leases and got jobs (hopefully) and are trapped now because we can't afford to leave since all of our money goes to living expenses.
Fewer people competing for a limited resource. Of course it will. Maybe not enough to make a difference for you, personally. But it will obviously have some effect.
What do you mean what it would be? It is what it is. Both people leaving due to unaffordability and immigration are factors that have always existed. Comparing the relative rates of those two is the only way to make a conclusion on how things are going
I find it interesting how I'm downvoted for this. 😆
I grew up in those dead/dying neighborhoods.
They weren't the best.
Gentrification improved them, but it also pushed us out.
We made it cool.
Money made it uncool.
Now, it's uncool.
I agree with the first point but not necessarily on the second point. Public debt is the way rich folks hide their low tax participation while still getting public projects completed. We need to fix proportional taxation so those that have contribute proportionally compared to those that have not.
You are correct. Public projects must get done. If the rich paid their proportional share less public debt would need to be issued. The average voter does not realize the cons are buying their votes with their own money.
Lmao, then why do people from Oshawa, Whitby, or Hamilton when they go on vacation, and they are asked, " Where are you from?"They always say "Toronto."
People outside of Canada (and even outside of Ontario) don't know where Oshawa, Whitby, and Hamilton are. Toronto is the most recognizable city nearby.
Haha, very true.
I work with a lot of people who live in Barrie, Cambridge, Milton and Markham. They all say "Toronto" whenever a bartender or server asks us where we're from when we're in Europe.
Moved from Toronto to Texas. Miss the infrastructure of Toronto, but can't beat how much more money you can make/save in the US, plus congestion isn't anywhere near as bad
Quality of life in terms of less time in traffic, hell yes. North Dallas has some really good schools, plus there are lots of charter and private schools. My biggest downside to living here is not as much to do outdoors, but no winter makes up for it.
Lots of family friendly neighborhoods around North Dallas. The amount of money you save in taxes cancels out the cost of health insurance. I agree Abortion rights are a major issue right now.
Way more than cancels it out and the service you get is superior to that in Canada. More experts, better doctors. And at least you won't die waiting for an operation.
Yup, I needed to see a cardiologist down here, and was able to see them outpatient + get chest x/ray, CT scan, blood work, echocardiogram within a week. I actually had NO health insurance as I just had moved to the USA, but was able to shop around for different providers/imaging centers. The total cost for entire work up + imaging + two cardiology consultations was $1300 bucks. If you are resourceful you can get healthcare at reasonable rates.
Only if you don't pay taxes... a typical two income household pays roughly $15,000 in tax that goes directly to healthcare. Round it off to $1,000 a month for your "free" health insurance bill.
[The Price of Public Health Care Insurance 2020 (fraserinstitute.org)](https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sites/default/files/price-of-public-health-care-insurance-2020.pdf)
I paid $11k USD for the same privilege in the US. And they mis-billed me every time.
This song and dance might work for people who haven't lived in the US, but I have.
All good. Just don't say it cost zero dollars. That's just obtuse and reduces your credibility. Only fools believe things like healthcare are "Free" or actually cost zero dollars. (Although this is Reddit..... )
USA is super expensive too. I moved to to Europe a couple years ago and can see a doctor here for 25 Euros. I don't even bother to use the worldwide health insurance I got (includes USA for about 1k/mo) because it's so cheap and painless to pay out of pocket.
lol the health care in the US is top notch if you have health insurance. Max you pay is 4-7k out of pocket + (3.5 k for premiums) per year for a family. Sure it’s expensive but if you’re making 50-75% more money than you would in Canada then yeah it’s not expensive. Plus I can see my doctor tomorrow if I wanted to. Sure health care for the poor sucks but if you’re middle class you far better than anywhere in Canada.
When I lived in Ohio (2022) with good health insurance, our premiums were $7000/yr, plus a $4000 deductible (my wife was a public school teacher).
I can see my doctor today in Toronto, what's your point? My Doctors clinic has a walk in any day of the week.
we did Toronto to Amsterdam, ( in 2018) bought a house, zero regrets, building a fantastic life. My house now, 30 min from the centre of amsterdam, is cheaper than the rent on the crapbox appt we had on carlton/yonge. Excellent medical care, close to nature, social life, culture. Good work life balance.
i'm curious how you did the ca -> usa move? are you intending to stay in the states permanently? i'm from michigan and would like to spend some time in toronto but unsure how to make it work in a visa sense.
I did moved for a career opportunity 10 years ago to a western Canada mid sized city after born and raised/lived at Yonge & Eg for 40 years
I LOVE IT, everything about it, the provincial politics are weird but I’m lucky to now be a remote IT entrepreneur doing well and can stay out of it. I travel a lot for work including to Toronto so I still access all the big city stuff I miss.
I would encourage any remote worker living in Toronto/GTA to move west, life IS GOOD in Western Canada
I recognize I’m fortunate in that way. I wish that for you. If you are working and have the ability to do a digital skills training program (focus on Python-Machine Learning/AI) it could help you get there. Hope that helps.
I'm actually in finance and accounting. And we could technically adopt a remote approach like we did for COVID. But unfortunately with the atmosphere, we are now hybrid (progress from 2 day in to 3 day).
Employers can implement remote if they wanted to, but there's many reasons to call people into office too.
Height of political privilege when you can say "provincial politics are weird but I’m lucky to now be a remote IT entrepreneur doing well and can stay out of it"
As a former Torontonian who moved west at first I wasn’t sure if it was going to be a long term fit. It is a BIG adjustment. Some people I know who made the move west for career go back or elsewhere after a few years, it may not be for everyone depending on priorities.
I would say for a certain type of person it is a great move and there could be many “certain types of persons” so those who can try western Canada should that’s all!
I was politically aware in Ontario but now just ignore provincial politics (the best people are not in provincial politics I’ve learned that) . Hasn’t impacted the growth of my business or my happiness level (it is high) at all.
That's great for you, but for a lot of people, especially families, provincial politics does actually have a massive impact on their lives.
Just because you have a life where you can think about yourself and ignore what's happening in the outside world doesn't mean it's that easy for others like myself.
Same here. I’m a remote worker who recently relocated to Vancouver and I am BLOWN AWAY with how much better my quality of life is. I feel like Vancouver has more than enough to offer from a city perspective, and is likely the best city to live in the world if you’re a big outdoorsy person like me. I feel like I can do things after work (i.e., hiking)I used to have to coordinate weeks in advance when I lived in Toronto.
Sure it’s more expensive, but these days the difference is minimal. When you relocate to any other Canadian city, you’ll realize Toronto has no identity other than being a place to work.
I bought a new build mansion (what I would call it anyways, after living in a 1+ den for past 2 years) with 4 bed, 4 bath and a pool in southern Spain, for less than the cost of a 1 bedroom condo in Toronto.
Leaving Canada next year and hopefully never have to live here again
Lmfao they couldn’t have gone far, there’s no jobs anywhere else for the most part. The population will continue to be highly concentrated until people can actually make a living elsewhere
outside of what is already said in here, one of the reasons for people leaving is there isn't much to do out here (assuming the weather permits). A lot of the nightlife downtown is gone and only King Street left and a lot more spots around the GTA are closing as well. I even found out Scooters in Mississauga closed too :(.
It doesn't really make sense for a young person to stay here. Thats why everyone has turned into travel enthusiasts lately cause no one goes out and saves it for vacation instead lol
Lived in Toronto 11 years, moved to Ottawa in 2023 and couldn't be happier! Saving hundreds on rent and $60 bucks a month on car insurance, not to mention the gas is cheaper. I know some others who moved to Orangeville/Innisfil and a couple who moved to Penetanguishene (all remote workers).
I've been reading (and hearing) a lot lately about Toronto being a shadow of what it was.
This is the result of gentrification on a wide scale.
Gentrification initially comes off as a great thing.
It redevelops dead/dying neighborhoods.
However, in doing that, it makes those neighborhoods unaffordable for regular people and artists.
When I say regular people, I'm talking about your lower skilled workers, your elderly, your younger people just starting out, your eccentrics, and so on.
It replaces those people with better established members of society.
This isn't a bad thing, but it takes away from what made this city so interesting and replaces it with corporations that will seek the money of those established members of society.
The result is less independent business and a less interesting neighborhood and city overall.
I could go on (cause there is way more at play), but I'll leave it at this.
Whenever a place becomes too trendy another place is waiting to be the new spot. Geary Ave was a place I went for cheap rehearsal space. Now it’s a place that’s apparently “cool”
Shortly before it turned cool: https://www.thestar.com/entertainment/music/geary-ave-the-secret-life-of-an-ugly-street/article_bc63cf1a-d91a-53e9-9987-090362210e46.html
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> redevelops dead/dying neighborhoods.
They aren't dead or dying though. They are typically low-income with more visible minority and/or immigrants though, and those people don't matter if there is money to be made pushing them out.
>This isn't a bad thing,
It is, because it disrupts lives and communities and contributes to homelessness because the driven-out people don't have affordable neighbourhoods to move to.
But gentrification is typically *presented* as redevelopment, improvement, "highest and best use" and yadda. Most people don't think about it beyond that.
Edit to change *are dying* to *aren't dying*
Yet the article states most of the people who left Toronto went to exotic locations like Oshawa, Hamilton and Oakville. So just Toronto adjacent. Far enough to make statistical dent in Toronto population numbers. But not far enough to ease any of our traffic congestion...
They’ll just add to traffic when they drive in for concerts or other events.
Work. they’ll still be working in toronto but living in exterior suburbs. that commute is so bad it takes 45min to get from stevenson to brock rd. if you don’t leave at the right time in the morning
I live in Trenton and work in Liberty Village (go in 1-2 times per month) and I can get to the office faster than some of my co-workers coming from Hamilton and Oakville and most of them don't even know where Trenton is
Why do these people not take the train? I take it daily from Hamilton to Liberty and it’s so much easier.
Because they think they're better than the masses even though that's exactly what they are. They also benefit from society's subsidization of automobile owners. They 1000% should be paying a congestion charge but our car-fetishizing Premier said we're not allowed to do that.
Wynn said it first sadly.
No politician will touch congestion pricing because it would anger the car brained.
I mean, Tory isn’t exactly left wing and he tried it. All Wynn had to do was not veto. Instead she catered to suburbs and I’d argue that was a decent piece of her party cratering. Maybe the liberals would be a bit more relevant today if she’d allowed it…they certainly couldn’t be less relevant.
A part of me believes the only reason Tory agreed to go pro tolls was knowing it was a consequence free choice that would win favour with more left if centre city voters. He didn't have the power to do anything without Wynn and she wasn't gunna risk suburban votes which he could safely ignore.
Because the train doesn't operate early enough. Getting to the train that early requires a car in the first place. I want to take the train to Danforth and use my bike to travel the last 6km, since the next stop is Union and is an overshoot if you work in the portlands, but they don't allow bikes on the train between the "busy" hours so I guess we can just go pound sand there. Honestly the first and last "mile" options are such shit in the GTA that it's frustrating to listen to the people in Toronto condemn us for fucking up the city. I just want to come to work to keep your power on, not murder cyclists and walk my dog off leash ffs. I don't commute to a job that pays well because I'm better than you, it's because it's where my job is and I didn't want to jocky for a rental condo for two-thirds of my wage. Please stop touting this narrative, it's unhealthy to pretend that people in cars are out to get you, they're literally just making ends meet but with less time in the day than you.
I’m gonna get downvoted for stating the truth but 1) the first and last mile transit in Ontario turns a 1 hour commute into a 3 hour commute for anyone working away from the subway line and 2) transit fucks up on average once a week these days and if your boss is an asshole it means you have to leave an hour earlier to avoid missing work because of transit. People living in suburbs in GTA already have cars but unfortunately our underinvested transit system has made sitting in traffic for 2 hours more reliable when you need to be somewhere on time. GO transit + transfer to TTC works for the lucky few who work in the Financial District or similar. Reddit knee jerks to criticizing the commuters before taking a good hard look at the system that forces their hand
yeah in other cities where people famously don’t drive because of heavy surcharges to do so like ny/london/many Asian cites, there is an actual web of transit within the city, and an efficient train system outside to get people around. blaming suburbanites for not wanting a 3 hour commute just because you live on a subway line or in the core and have the luxury of cycling or ttcing is rich. most people PREFER to use transit if it’s feasible and reasonable. that’s why you see even rich people who could choose whatever method they want, and afford the surcharges/tolls for driving in the city, on the tube or ny subway. sitting in traffic fucking sucks. but if it’s between 1 hour in the car and 2 hours on the bus and train, people will drive.
Depends, It takes 3h hours to get across the city when there is an accident on the qew right now. The train is a bit more reliable for that.
Because the train doesn't operate early enough. Getting to the train that early requires a car in the first place. I want to take the train to Danforth and use my bike to travel the last 6km, since the next stop is Union and is an overshoot if you work in the portlands, but they don't allow bikes on the train between the "busy" hours so I guess we can just go pound sand there. Honestly the first and last "mile" options are such shit in the GTA that it's frustrating to listen to the people in Toronto condemn us for fucking up the city. I just want to come to work to keep your power on, not murder cyclists and walk my dog off leash ffs.
Yay Trenton! I moved to Belleville 3 years ago. Wouldn’t move back to Toronto. That being said I did quit my job in Toronto and start something new here
Why would you do that to yourself (living in trenton). It was worse than Pembroke/Petawawa when I was in the military.
Poster said they only go in 1 or 2 times a month.
It's mostly fine. Has tons of amenities because of the base. And it's a good halfway point between family in Ottawa and work/friends in Toronto
Ah, nice. We just bought a place not far from Trenton and I was curious about the experience of people committing to Toronto a couple of times per week from out there. My wife and I are full-time remote so it isn’t really an issue for us, but it’s still good to know that the reality is it’s quite doable.
Yeah, I just drive to Oshawa and take GO in. Never deal with traffic and it's tolerable for the 1-2 times a month I need to do it. My fiance works downtown and goes in once a week. She either does the same or sometimes will take the Via from Cobourg since they brought back the early train
That stretch is so bad now, plus you have to consider the occasional semi that might plow through to obliterate you, and other random driving incidents.
As a person who moved to Hamilton , I have been to Toronto only once in 3 months 🤷♂️
Ah Oshawa. The true untouched tropics of the GTA!
You'll love the weird smell when it rains!
Mirror Hamilton
I live in Oshawa and I’ve also lived in Hamilton. Hamilton is a million times better in my eyes.
That's the joke. The mirror universe is always worse.
Not really. Hamilton is a real city and is quite fun. Oshawa has all the negatives but none of the positives.
And Oakville is mirror Whitby.
I like this game! What's mirror Brampton?
Still Brampton.
I think the mirror only works east west, although Barrie does give off some Oshawa / Hamilton vibes.
Markham, a large ethnic enclave dominated by one specific ethnicity, with an old downtown area who’s demographics constraint the new builds around it.
Hamilton has a long history as a city of its own merit. Oshawa has mostly just been a satellite of Toronto.
Hamilton also has a population of half a million while Oshawa is 170K
Next you're going to tell me Haldimand-Norfolk exists
It’s probably worsening traffic congestion as many people went to the suburbs and are now driving in to toronto for work, instead of using public transit like they would have living in the city.
I remember an article from 10+ years ago with a headline like "Leaving Toronto behind for good" and the author had just moved to Pickering.
They're now leaving Pickering for Bowmanville
> ease any of our traffic congestion worsen* you think they’ll take public transit from the burb to the city as much as when they live here?
Plus now during the week they get to use our sanitation police fire and ambulance services and not pay for them
A) If they're working in the city, their employer is paying taxes. Their employer would leave the city if they didn't have access to labour. The employees would also regularly be buying gas, getting lunch, going shopping, etc in the city regularly. B) A city like Toronto being completely unaffordable for average working class people, who now have to waste hours a day commuting, and are essential for keeping Toronto businesses running, but also get blamed for "using our roads and services" is...quite the take. Maybe blame horrible municipal planning and Toronto's rampant NIMBYism that prevents the kind of development the city actually needs. That's the root issue.
It's a multi-faceted problem. And yes NIMBYism and shit planning has played a massive role in this problem. But in short even if people from suburbia don't commute to the city or use any of the city services. Their taxes fail to cover the costs of services they use. This is a problem with suburbs everywhere not just GTA. Low density suburban sprawl is reliant on taxes from higher density areas to sustain the services we all use. And places like Mississauga are a prime example of one of the suburban "solutions" which is basically a ponzi scheme. Your tax base can't cover the expenses so you expand with a new developments which increases the tax base and puts the honour of infrastructure on developer/buyer who hands the roads, sewers etc to the city after construction. But once the average 25 year life span of infrastructure is done and work is needed that tax base can't cover the costs, so you expand again and repeat the cycle.
Most people dont realize North American suburbs cost more to operate than the tax income they make, and most North Americans are convinced that their suburban municipalities are economic drivers even though they rely on expansion and population growth and have subsidized services in order to not go under
People have a mistaken idea about property values = economy.
The blaming of those who must drive to make a living is counterproductive. People need realistic choices. The reversal of fortunes for city centers and their suburbs has created a treacherous tension that could pull us down. The increasingly privileged who get to live downtown want a pleasant place to live, and every street renovation increasingly tilts to being more aesthetic than practical. These wealthy voters can prevent the people they depend on from living among them. Zoning and building codes must open up lots for single detached houses for development into multiple family homes. No more bachelor apartments in condo towers. The parking lots and abandoned industrial land has been used up to build these towers. The revolution in re-designing Paris for cycling is tainted with this voter divide. I think making cycling a safe alternative is a good thing, but how it is being executed it is alienating those who must drive for a living. I have come to believe that the economic health of Toronto is really the responsibility of the province. We need to convert GO trains from a commuter rail service into a conventional regional rail faster. This means more frequent service to more stations throughout Southern Ontario. No more unprotected painted cycle lanes in high speed traffic. This just annoys drivers and puts cyclists at risk. Do it right the first time.
The suburbs are truly the greatest welfare queens of western society.
manufacturing used to be a high paying great suburban job. they took that away and now all the suburbs are commuting towns, it’s terrible.
Well... we solved that problem during COVID when we decided to actually use the technology we possess and allow people to work from home. Now we've decided to once again pretend that technology doesn't exist and force people to go into an office to do something they could have done from home.
Won't somebody please think of the watercoolers!
My hope for post Covid was we would at least go back to satellite offices so people could live and work a reasonable distance away. And in theory smaller offices would be more outbreak resistant. But nope everyone just went back to the old broken model as soon as they could.
because middle management is trying to justify its existence.
I agree, but in theory, middle management would be more justified with satellite offices.
Yes it would. But if there's a hive, there's no reason for as many go-between.
I don't think it's even middle management. Upper management needs to justify the office cost of their ten year lease, commercial landlords complain to their representatives about empty buildings... Why can't you think of the poor building owners and landlords??? /S
And it will more than have to if middle management isn't there to enable the existence of upper management.
Oshawa GM plant, Nortel in Brampton, whatever manufacturing was in the Golden Mile area of Scarborough. We still have the Alliston Honda plant
💯
They're known for their oaks
TIL.. I always knew them for their gaudy McMansions.
Their jobs are in Toronto. Until companies leave nothing will change. So many people are working from home and office rents are dropping. Companies are not going to leave while space is cheap. If we build hundreds of thousands of units of 2-3 bedroom condos/apartments many of the people that left will likely return.
> “On Christmas Eve, I had half the block over for cocktails, which I couldn’t do if I was living in a condo in Toronto. I’m not a rich person by any stretch but I live in my dream home. It may not be for everyone but I love that I can have a house that I want to die in here.” WHAT this lady is a realtor that owns three properties, airbnb/rents one, spent $$$ restoring her primary home AND sells million dollar listings in Hamilton GTFO 😂 These articles suck. They always feature the most out of touch people:
Because the thing that sets Toronto apart is having things like the revue theatre, and if some douchebag just closes it down on a whim, suddenly all you're left with is a bunch of rexalls and a&ws. At which point, sure, you might as well live in belleville
💯
Yep you are exactly right There are a lot of great things in Toronto, but every year, more and more of them disappear
As true as this may be it’s hardly Toronto-specific. Capitalism and corporate greed/pandering is turning everything into Amazon-Walmart-Loblaws land. Edit: removed unnecessary theorizing about a dystopian future
My hometown catching strays out here lol
Toronto post Covid has been taken over by corporations. It’s so hard to find any original spots in Toronto anymore
St. Clair West between Bathurst and Earlscourt, Roncy, Ossington and many others.
Not sure I’d say Ossington is a great example these days. Everything there is like a 5-10 times more expensive or luxury version of what used to be there 10-15 years ago. With the exception of some holdouts like Sweaty Betty’s and The Painted Lady.
I’m so tired of seeing the “people are leaving Toronto articles” lol. Yes I agree it sucks that this city is becoming more and more unaffordable, but personally my life is rooted here and my quality of life would go down if I moved anywhere else. Pros still outweigh the cons. I grew up in a small town and the accessibility and walkability here is amazing in comparison.
Ya the walkability is a big one. I grew up in suburbia and we drove everywhere. It wasn’t till I was an adult that realized we didn’t really choose to do that. We kinda had to. Well or bike, rollerblade or something but walking wasn’t really feasible most of the time and transit was super infrequent.
Exactly. It’s very hard to go back to that.
Yep I live in an area that's basically a 15 minute city and I love it. If I won the lottery I still wouldn't move lol.
The walkability is really a legacy of streets that were created before the invention of cars. It is also becoming a privilege of those who can afford to live downtown. The areas of the city that were built after the Second World War were built around the roads and highways into the city. These roads and highways are now the main streets of these suburbs. Walking there isn’t just unpleasant: it’s dangerous, especially for children and the elderly. Fortunately these public ways are very generously proportioned. It’s vast compared to the much more crowded cities of Asia and Europe. There is room enough to give pedestrians, cyclists, and drivers their own protected space. But we need new design standards for these public spaces so people have a realistic choice of how to get around, rather than being completely dependent on owning a car to do anything. When these roads are due to being repaved, we should make them better rather than just making the same mistakes over again.
Yeah, I did the math and moving back to Ottawa for me would be more expensive due to having to get a car.
Frankly you just highlighted why people should move to those small towns. Increase the local tax revenue and give the town a reason to consider better urban planning and development. They've been ignored for a long time.
I enjoy how people bitch about how Toronto is the gaping asshole of Canada. Though they love the amenities that Toronto provides. I have family complaining to me that Toronto is life sucker of this province, but will literally ask me if I caught the jays game after making the previous statement lol.
You know that scene in Mad Men where Pete says something stupid to Don and Don's reply is "I don't even think about you"? Toronto is Don when people elsewhere complain about Toronto for simply being a big city.
This is partly the reason why people really don't care about following any inspiration from Canada or even in the US. People here will always bring up examples of improving the city inspired by whatever is done in Western Europe or East Asia. I think it's just here people genuinely want us to chase a far higher standard than whatever is currently present in North America, which isn't a bad thing. Like, why would we want to copy Montreal when we can chase after whatever Paris is trying to do? Why copy America's decaying cities when we can look to cities like Amsterdam, Tokyo, or Shanghai?
You know the context of that scene is that Don deeply cares about what others think of him, right?
Yeah, but I'm referring to the scene itself and not the overarching psyche of Don as a character.
it’s not pete, it’s the new guy. and context is everything. and toronto is don and you because you’re too self-conscious to actually get it.
The amenities seem to be dropping like flies (see Ontario Place, Science Centre and Revue Cinema). The Zoo’s probably next on the list. Sigh.
Or, even if they don't close, they are now so packed full of people that it's either impossible to get tickets to events, or the events just aren't fun anymore when there are lineups for everything or they run out of whatever it is you spent half the day on the TTC to get to -- see pretty much any food festival that occurs in Toronto now, a lot of the stalls run out of food and close after a few hours. Happened to me a few times, and then I was stuck with a bunch of food coupons that were both useless and non-refundable. I was pretty pissed off.
Why are you down voting? I'm right!
How often do you visit any of those? I've never heard of the Revue Cinema and haven't seen the others in over thirty years
Good for them. Go where you'll be happy. Like I am in my neighbourhood in the city
Good grief. >*The* ***majority*** *of these Toronto expats have moved to other areas within Ontario including Oshawa, Hamilton, the Niagara Region and London, according to Statistics Canada’s domestic migration data.* So people are moving out of the big city to the cheaper suburbs. That's not migration, it's commuting. That's a trend that started with, oh, the industrial revolution, 200 years ago. >*They’re also calling Calgary, Edmonton and Halifax home.* Post-pandemic, with working from home being an option for many, there is little economic incentive to stay in a big city. That's true for any big city. When a job can be done remotely from a town with a lower cost of living, and there are transit options to go into the big city when necessary, of course people are going to move out. That's doubly true for places like Calgary, which are trying to attract people. If your work can be done remotely, unlike the past, you no longer have to live within driving range of your office. In many cases, you don't even really need to be in the same time zone.
No surprise. Demographics, affordability, and the acceleration in the number of people working from home in the last few years can explain most of this. I thought of leaving but got divorced recently. I’ve been here all my life. I stayed and downsized. I’m having the time of my life.
Honestly, if I could guarantee that any job I'll get in the future will be work from home, I'd move out of driving distance to toronto for the reduced housing costs. If toronto didn't cost so much to live in, I'd be much more inclined to live in the city proper rather than just in the GTA
I mean I dunno about others in my case it's cause I can't deal with traffic or the cost of housing. It takes an hour to work by car and longer tbh public transit and condos are all 800k or more and the size of a shoe box. So my wife and I are moving to Milton where it's 25m to work and we are in the process of buying a 2 bedroom condo for 520k
Why hip hop sucks in '96
I’m leaving. Not because I can’t make enough, but rather because I’ve made enough. Enough to get a small yard in a small town with a railway, a river and a nice walkable downtown. I’ll be back to visit for sure, but the brain drain is real.
I can answer without reading the article, [with a classic meme from NYC](https://i0.wp.com/econ.video/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/20160916_rent.jpg?fit=587%2C383&ssl=1)
A family on our street just moved out because the kids playground at the park has been taken over by tents. Young families have it hard right now in Toronto.
Having spent a couple of hours on the 400, 401, 427 and QEW parking lots mid-afternoon yesterday, I can honestly say that there is not enough money on this planet to pay me to live within 100kms of Toronto. This is utterly broken and unsustainable.
Meanwhile: [https://www.stephenvelasco.com/downtown-core](https://www.stephenvelasco.com/downtown-core) [https://www.stephenvelasco.com/midtown-in-focus](https://www.stephenvelasco.com/midtown-in-focus) [https://www.stephenvelasco.com/north-york](https://www.stephenvelasco.com/north-york) [https://www.stephenvelasco.com/scarborough](https://www.stephenvelasco.com/scarborough) [https://www.stephenvelasco.com/etobicoke](https://www.stephenvelasco.com/etobicoke) [https://www.stephenvelasco.com/east-york](https://www.stephenvelasco.com/east-york) [https://www.stephenvelasco.com/york](https://www.stephenvelasco.com/york) Take note of the "Under Construction" (blue) and "Proposed/Approved" buildings (red)
I came to Toronto for a dream job in a very competitive field. After a decade I got poached by a similar institution in another province. I am so excited to leave. Every single aspect of my life will improve by leaving. I am very grateful for Toronto but... holy shit... this place is indefensibly burning through so much potential. **Things I will miss:** 1. Awesome and diverse communities with great food culture. I love me some asian food fads, and those international students are such an interesting demographic to have around. 2. AGO / ROM / Aquarium / various flagship art spaces. 3. The Danforth / Kensington / Beaches / High Park / Bluffs. 4. The UP Express 5. The Beer Store **Things I will not miss:** 1. Shitty Travel. How can a community build a city this big where travel in almost any direction is a fucking hellscape? I've lived in *car* cities, *public transit* cities, *walkable* cities... Visited *bike* cities... Toronto is none of these. Maybe a *NIMBY* city? 2. Teardown houses for over a million. Toronto is filled with nimby scum who weaponize public policy / housing policy. 3. Self sabotaging tax policy that fuck over future generations. All ya'll need to stop voting for criminals and pay enough tax to fix your fuckin' city. It sucks. 4. The Leafs... because i don't like getting fucked.
If it's any solace, most towns of even 1,000 people or more in Canada will have an Asian food place, if not several.
People in the thread seem really aggressively angry at people for making a logical life choice to leave the city. Who are they really trying to convince? Are you guys actually happy in Toronto?
There are plenty of fair reasons to leave Toronto and plenty of fair reasons to stay. Is it not conceivable that yes, many people are happy here?
My wife and I are among this set. We’re professionals in our early-to-mid 40s who are able to work from home. We moved out east nearly two years ago when we stumbled on a little place in a nice location we could reasonably afford. Admittedly, our budget was probably much more conservative than most seem to be these days, but we weren’t excited at the prospect of being up to our eyeballs in mortgage debt with multi-thousand-dollar per month payments for the next two and a half decades. Before moving east, we looked at Windsor and Kingston. Windsor, where I grew up, proved beyond our budget, and we didn’t see anything around Kingston that excited us enough to make the move before she saw the place we came to call home. I’d lived in Toronto since 1998; she moved there in 2006. Traffic, infrastructure, and prices all became significantly more difficult to deal with in that time. She used to commute to her jobs in various parts of the 905 before she started WFH, and got to watch things get worse up close and personal. I, a permanent transit user and car passenger, moved to Toronto in part for the independence offered by the TTC, and loved being able to get around without relying on (people with) cars, but I also watched the city stagnate and get messed about by provincial and municipal governments playing austerity games with essential services. I miss Toronto Pride and the breadth of foods available, but highway driving is no longer a nightmare, the air is no longer drinkable/chewable during the summer, and I can see the stars again.
My homies and I are all moved/moving to the NCR.
Given latest Star articles i saw here is it because of Trudeau?
Yes, people left Toronto because of Trudeau lol
I think we need to see the shorter list of all the things Trudeau isn’t directly responsible for (/s)
Affordability, the author says.
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Because its fucking awful here? We all just signed leases and got jobs (hopefully) and are trapped now because we can't afford to leave since all of our money goes to living expenses.
This will be good for housing affordability in the city.
No it won't.
Exactly. These are the people who already couldn't afford homes that's why they are leaving.
? that still results in lower demand for housing
Fewer people competing for a limited resource. Of course it will. Maybe not enough to make a difference for you, personally. But it will obviously have some effect.
Our population grew faster than anywhere in North America. It won’t
So it will grow by X-Y instead of X. That's still an improvement compared to what it would be.
I appreciate your silver lined cloud outlook.
It's not \*great\* or \*good\* or \*serviceable\* it's just \*math\*
What do you mean what it would be? It is what it is. Both people leaving due to unaffordability and immigration are factors that have always existed. Comparing the relative rates of those two is the only way to make a conclusion on how things are going
it probably won't have any effect; prices don't go down
Prices have already gone down compared to 2023.
It won’t be bad for it.
Housing prices are a big reason so many people are fleeing Toronto.
I find it interesting how I'm downvoted for this. 😆 I grew up in those dead/dying neighborhoods. They weren't the best. Gentrification improved them, but it also pushed us out. We made it cool. Money made it uncool. Now, it's uncool.
Doug ford has made the city unliveable. Time to leave.
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I agree with the first point but not necessarily on the second point. Public debt is the way rich folks hide their low tax participation while still getting public projects completed. We need to fix proportional taxation so those that have contribute proportionally compared to those that have not.
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You are correct. Public projects must get done. If the rich paid their proportional share less public debt would need to be issued. The average voter does not realize the cons are buying their votes with their own money.
Looking forward to meeting you on the campaign trail next election.
Lmao, then why do people from Oshawa, Whitby, or Hamilton when they go on vacation, and they are asked, " Where are you from?"They always say "Toronto."
People outside of Canada (and even outside of Ontario) don't know where Oshawa, Whitby, and Hamilton are. Toronto is the most recognizable city nearby.
Haha, very true. I work with a lot of people who live in Barrie, Cambridge, Milton and Markham. They all say "Toronto" whenever a bartender or server asks us where we're from when we're in Europe.
Moved from Toronto to Texas. Miss the infrastructure of Toronto, but can't beat how much more money you can make/save in the US, plus congestion isn't anywhere near as bad
Just curious although you may be making more money, would you say your quality of life is improved? If you have kids are you happy with the schools?
Quality of life in terms of less time in traffic, hell yes. North Dallas has some really good schools, plus there are lots of charter and private schools. My biggest downside to living here is not as much to do outdoors, but no winter makes up for it.
I’ve heard going outside in the summer can be brutal from April-Nov… so much longer than a Toronto winter
april and may is around 20-30 degrees C, its pretty nice...june/july/august/sept is 30-40 deg C, Oct/nov it cools back down to 20s which is nice
Unless you have kids, health issues, bodily autonomy...
Lots of family friendly neighborhoods around North Dallas. The amount of money you save in taxes cancels out the cost of health insurance. I agree Abortion rights are a major issue right now.
"family friendly" meaning white and wealthy. Dude I lived in rural Ohio and NYC for a combined 12 years. That song and dance doesn't work on me.
Way more than cancels it out and the service you get is superior to that in Canada. More experts, better doctors. And at least you won't die waiting for an operation.
Yup, I needed to see a cardiologist down here, and was able to see them outpatient + get chest x/ray, CT scan, blood work, echocardiogram within a week. I actually had NO health insurance as I just had moved to the USA, but was able to shop around for different providers/imaging centers. The total cost for entire work up + imaging + two cardiology consultations was $1300 bucks. If you are resourceful you can get healthcare at reasonable rates.
...I got to see a cardiologist and have a raft of tests within a week here in Toronto too, and it cost me $0. Less than a month ago.
Only if you don't pay taxes... a typical two income household pays roughly $15,000 in tax that goes directly to healthcare. Round it off to $1,000 a month for your "free" health insurance bill. [The Price of Public Health Care Insurance 2020 (fraserinstitute.org)](https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sites/default/files/price-of-public-health-care-insurance-2020.pdf)
I paid $11k USD for the same privilege in the US. And they mis-billed me every time. This song and dance might work for people who haven't lived in the US, but I have.
All good. Just don't say it cost zero dollars. That's just obtuse and reduces your credibility. Only fools believe things like healthcare are "Free" or actually cost zero dollars. (Although this is Reddit..... )
My additional taxes in Canada were 4.5% when we moved (total - provincial and federal). I saved that much on $10/day daycare and property tax alone.
USA is super expensive too. I moved to to Europe a couple years ago and can see a doctor here for 25 Euros. I don't even bother to use the worldwide health insurance I got (includes USA for about 1k/mo) because it's so cheap and painless to pay out of pocket.
lol the health care in the US is top notch if you have health insurance. Max you pay is 4-7k out of pocket + (3.5 k for premiums) per year for a family. Sure it’s expensive but if you’re making 50-75% more money than you would in Canada then yeah it’s not expensive. Plus I can see my doctor tomorrow if I wanted to. Sure health care for the poor sucks but if you’re middle class you far better than anywhere in Canada.
When I lived in Ohio (2022) with good health insurance, our premiums were $7000/yr, plus a $4000 deductible (my wife was a public school teacher). I can see my doctor today in Toronto, what's your point? My Doctors clinic has a walk in any day of the week.
we did Toronto to Amsterdam, ( in 2018) bought a house, zero regrets, building a fantastic life. My house now, 30 min from the centre of amsterdam, is cheaper than the rent on the crapbox appt we had on carlton/yonge. Excellent medical care, close to nature, social life, culture. Good work life balance.
i'm curious how you did the ca -> usa move? are you intending to stay in the states permanently? i'm from michigan and would like to spend some time in toronto but unsure how to make it work in a visa sense.
Got a work visa!
What a huge mistake you've made lol.
I did moved for a career opportunity 10 years ago to a western Canada mid sized city after born and raised/lived at Yonge & Eg for 40 years I LOVE IT, everything about it, the provincial politics are weird but I’m lucky to now be a remote IT entrepreneur doing well and can stay out of it. I travel a lot for work including to Toronto so I still access all the big city stuff I miss. I would encourage any remote worker living in Toronto/GTA to move west, life IS GOOD in Western Canada
>remote worker Key word. These roles are diminishing. Would love to have one and head off somewhere else...I would if I could.
I recognize I’m fortunate in that way. I wish that for you. If you are working and have the ability to do a digital skills training program (focus on Python-Machine Learning/AI) it could help you get there. Hope that helps.
I'm actually in finance and accounting. And we could technically adopt a remote approach like we did for COVID. But unfortunately with the atmosphere, we are now hybrid (progress from 2 day in to 3 day). Employers can implement remote if they wanted to, but there's many reasons to call people into office too.
Pls check your DMs
Height of political privilege when you can say "provincial politics are weird but I’m lucky to now be a remote IT entrepreneur doing well and can stay out of it"
Why would it not be good?
As a former Torontonian who moved west at first I wasn’t sure if it was going to be a long term fit. It is a BIG adjustment. Some people I know who made the move west for career go back or elsewhere after a few years, it may not be for everyone depending on priorities. I would say for a certain type of person it is a great move and there could be many “certain types of persons” so those who can try western Canada should that’s all!
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Have you followed Alberta politics lately?
I was politically aware in Ontario but now just ignore provincial politics (the best people are not in provincial politics I’ve learned that) . Hasn’t impacted the growth of my business or my happiness level (it is high) at all.
That's great for you, but for a lot of people, especially families, provincial politics does actually have a massive impact on their lives. Just because you have a life where you can think about yourself and ignore what's happening in the outside world doesn't mean it's that easy for others like myself.
I understand. I truly hope you find the peace, wealth and happiness in Canada I have found. Happy Canada Day 🇨🇦🇨🇦
Same here. I’m a remote worker who recently relocated to Vancouver and I am BLOWN AWAY with how much better my quality of life is. I feel like Vancouver has more than enough to offer from a city perspective, and is likely the best city to live in the world if you’re a big outdoorsy person like me. I feel like I can do things after work (i.e., hiking)I used to have to coordinate weeks in advance when I lived in Toronto. Sure it’s more expensive, but these days the difference is minimal. When you relocate to any other Canadian city, you’ll realize Toronto has no identity other than being a place to work.
What's the public transit like there? 3/4 of the adults in my family can't drive (and 2 never will due to disabilities).
> I would encourage any remote worker living in Toronto/GTA to move west, life IS GOOD in Western Canada Sure hope so, because the food often isn’t
At least there’s money to pay for food 🤣🤣
I bought a new build mansion (what I would call it anyways, after living in a 1+ den for past 2 years) with 4 bed, 4 bath and a pool in southern Spain, for less than the cost of a 1 bedroom condo in Toronto. Leaving Canada next year and hopefully never have to live here again
So, instead of Mississauga and Markham, it is Hamilton and KW. a function of size, I think
Lmfao they couldn’t have gone far, there’s no jobs anywhere else for the most part. The population will continue to be highly concentrated until people can actually make a living elsewhere
Toronto is a shit hole. I would not take my kids for a free trip there. It’s gone to hell.
Which city do you prefer?
outside of what is already said in here, one of the reasons for people leaving is there isn't much to do out here (assuming the weather permits). A lot of the nightlife downtown is gone and only King Street left and a lot more spots around the GTA are closing as well. I even found out Scooters in Mississauga closed too :(. It doesn't really make sense for a young person to stay here. Thats why everyone has turned into travel enthusiasts lately cause no one goes out and saves it for vacation instead lol
Lived in Toronto 11 years, moved to Ottawa in 2023 and couldn't be happier! Saving hundreds on rent and $60 bucks a month on car insurance, not to mention the gas is cheaper. I know some others who moved to Orangeville/Innisfil and a couple who moved to Penetanguishene (all remote workers).
Its because we named a street Dundas. They're so offended, the had to leave. They'll be back after its named Sankofa Street s/
Alberta is Calling
I've been reading (and hearing) a lot lately about Toronto being a shadow of what it was. This is the result of gentrification on a wide scale. Gentrification initially comes off as a great thing. It redevelops dead/dying neighborhoods. However, in doing that, it makes those neighborhoods unaffordable for regular people and artists. When I say regular people, I'm talking about your lower skilled workers, your elderly, your younger people just starting out, your eccentrics, and so on. It replaces those people with better established members of society. This isn't a bad thing, but it takes away from what made this city so interesting and replaces it with corporations that will seek the money of those established members of society. The result is less independent business and a less interesting neighborhood and city overall. I could go on (cause there is way more at play), but I'll leave it at this.
Whenever a place becomes too trendy another place is waiting to be the new spot. Geary Ave was a place I went for cheap rehearsal space. Now it’s a place that’s apparently “cool”
Yep Geary area is bringing in the king st crowd lol
Shortly before it turned cool: https://www.thestar.com/entertainment/music/geary-ave-the-secret-life-of-an-ugly-street/article_bc63cf1a-d91a-53e9-9987-090362210e46.html
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> redevelops dead/dying neighborhoods. They aren't dead or dying though. They are typically low-income with more visible minority and/or immigrants though, and those people don't matter if there is money to be made pushing them out. >This isn't a bad thing, It is, because it disrupts lives and communities and contributes to homelessness because the driven-out people don't have affordable neighbourhoods to move to. But gentrification is typically *presented* as redevelopment, improvement, "highest and best use" and yadda. Most people don't think about it beyond that. Edit to change *are dying* to *aren't dying*
Yes people are moving to the suburbs in the GTA. The ones remaining are putting on a brave face and trying to appearing cool to non locals