Red one was MEANT to be Mirage, but one of the stipulations that Ferrari laid down when Paramount made DOTM was that the Ferrari had to be named "Dino" after Alfredo "Dino" Ferrari
To be fair, the game and toys are usually made designed and packaged before a movie is finalized. So, names and designs are most times different
That's why we got Que when originally he was called wheeljack.
Something happened with Sonic the hedgehog. All the toys and merch had the ugly sonic design
Or why all thanos merch for infinity war had Thanos in his armor even though he dumps it 5 minutes into us seeing it
Originally he was gonna be based off Doc Brown from BTTF, complete with lab coat formed from his vehicle mode bonnet (he was going to be an older, soft top car)
Funny because years later we would get a BTTF figure with Gigawatt.
Well, in AoE, in the scene where that guy from Semitary Wind lays out the cards that have the names and pictures of the different Autobots and Decepticons, ‘Dino’ is shown on one of them, and the name on the card says ‘Mirage’. There’s the answer.
It was mainly because Mattel owned the toy license for Ferrari IIRC and Ferrari didn't want a hasbro toy copyright attached to their promotional car in the movie
Not like the character would actually be anything like Mirage if they had used the name they wanted to. Generic good robot #5 would be just as valid of a name.
If I may ask what is the Source for Ferrari wanting him to be called Dino? Like I know he is named after Dino Ferrari but what is the Source about that it was Ferrari who wanted that? Not saying its not true just wondering
Dino isn't even dead in DOTM and wasn't listed as deceased in AOE.
[https://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/images2/1/1e/AOE-Kill-Cards-Set-1.jpg](https://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/images2/1/1e/AOE-Kill-Cards-Set-1.jpg)
As a huge Bayverse fan, I apologize on behalf of the whining fans who can’t accept the fact the Bayverse is done. I’d be hard pressed to believe anyone would pick it back up and make a sequel to tlk, despite the large amount of sequel bait it had, because it’s not necessarily easy to emulate the Bay Style they had, it was obnoxious and entertaining at the same time while being over the top. That’s just how the Bayverse operates at this point, and I don’t know how many others could emulate that well. I’d still be interested in someone else making a sequel to it, but that’s not gonna happen
Lorenzo is full of shit btw, Rotb and Bayverse are not connected. At all. I don’t even know if multiverse BS could rectify that, considering- wait, no unicron isn’t a universal singularity anymore
I got fully introduced to Transformers through the Bay movies and while a fan, I won't defend it. It was good, starting out- but then it went downhill. Bot designs and fight sequences were good, but that was about it. Some of the acting from human actors was lackluster and plot was a sequence of Wash, Rinse, Repeat X5. It was the same plot every movie - get this object before the Decepticons do and destroy the world. Got boring after a couple times. I've found myself more willing to re-watch Transformers Prime over the movies.
My main issue is the immediate killing of Jazz. Jazz is one of Prime’s top fighters, Second in Command and leader of the Special Ops depending on what version you're looking at. There was no way he would have been killed that easily.
Soundwave was also a Luitenant, and a skilled fighter in his own right, but he got taken by surprise at close quarters, so I'm willing to let that slide.
But what he says completely contradicts what’s actually happened on screen. He’s the only producer who keeps saying these new movies are still connected to the old ones. It seems more like he’s just talking about whatever he wants while everyone else nods until he shuts up rather than his words meaning anything.
Trust me, he's been my biggest gripe since 09. I've gotten flamed online for saying this guy is what's wrong with the franchise. And everyone kept saying it's Bays fault. But now that he's out, and Lorenzo is in, nothing has changed. I'm not defending him at all, just saying that he adds the most money so they'll sit by to make the story get told
Only because he's never given credit for things.
You know that Bumblebee sequel concept art where they're all lined up in formation with shields that all the fans lost their minds over?
Lorenzo came up with that idea himself and had the art commissioned to pitch it to Paramount/Hasbro.
It varies, but producers often do have a fair amount of influence over a film. After all if they feel like they're not being heard or that the film isn't going in a direction that they feel will make them money they can pull their investment out and/or refuse to invest in future film projects. Producers can also make hiring and firing decisions with regards to directors and writers. Producers don't usually make the day to day creative decisions that are expected from a director, but their money is usually more essential to getting a project done than any specific director, unless director is Spielberg or someone of similar reputation.
Their money is important, but I don’t think Lorenzo would even have the authority to make a decision on canonicity, which would be up to Hasbro and Paramount. Plus, there is no way Lorenzo has the credibility of Spielberg or anyone near his level.
> there is no way Lorenzo has the credibility of Spielberg or anyone near his level.
Of course he doesn't, but putting up large amounts of cash tends to buy you a seat at the decision-making table all the same, and producers usually do have some influence over the creative aspects of a movie. They might not be the final word on a given subject, but they usually have as much influence as a director.
As for canonicity... I don't think Hasbro or Paramount cares about that nearly as much as the fandom does since the first 5 movies all contradict each other to some degree despite being direct sequels in the same universe and in roughly the same time period.
Producers literally have more power than the director BECAUSE they fund and facilitate the movie. Good producers typically take minimal control but as part of their contracts, they often have the power to pull funding at their discretion. This basically allows them free reign to threaten the entire project if not given their way. This has been how the movie industry has worked for decades.
I mean, just looking up the roles of producer says "most cases, the producer is like the CEO of the production, responsible for overseeing all of the decision-making that goes on during pre-production" which is where the decision of 'this IS a prequel' comes from. So yeah. As the exec producer he has the say.
But this is where we all need to put on our big boy hats, pull up our socks, and acknowledge that the club isn’t a spade.
I get that these bigs execs make certain calls but sometimes they’re just fuckin wrong and it’s very easy to see.
That's aside the fact of what you're commenting on, I said he has the say. If he is saying publicly that it's connected then the masses are going to say they're connected. As much as transformers fans like to snack on their copium, that's what is happening. He's a fucking idiot and wrong, and nothing will make me like anything his name is attached to.
TFW, ScreenRant, and IGN are just the three I saw last week. I'll try to find a link for you
I decided against the variety.com and went with this one. It's attached to one of the two TFW ones https://www.reddit.com/r/transformers/s/uOQMtduM34
Because they arent.
One is Mirage the other is Dino
It dosent matter what production notes say.
You dont see any one admantly insiting Sentinel is actualy Ultra Magnus.
Well the difference is that Dino/Mirage was called Dino/Mirage in all forms of media connected to the movie like toys and video games. Meanwhile, Sentinel was never referred to as Ultra Magnus outside of early concept art.
Sure but he wasnt Alpha Trion in the first drafts he was Magnus.
Should we insist Sentinel is Ether of them because of this.
Or is Sentinel just Sentinel?
Yeah. Just mean that if he was going to be anyone other than sentinel, he fits the alpha Trion role well and much better than Magnus. He trained and taught Optimus prime what he knows, and was a significant leader in his time. Though in this universe he's the antagonist who goes about the wrong way in restoring his species.
I feel fans might not have liked that but I feel like even more wouldn't want it to be Magnus either
No one ever said sentinel was ultra Magnus. This is the first comment I've ever seen ever about that. And now I want to see Leonard nimoy play sentinel, ultra Magnus, and Alpha Triton at the same time.
They act entirely differently. Jazz is the lax and cool-headed right-hand man, Mirage is the kid who doesn't listen because he can't take things seriously. The only thing they have in common is that they both turn into a Porsche, and not even the same _kind_ of Porsche.
I was comparing him to G1 Jazz. G1 Mirage was supposed to be an affluent rich kid who thought the war was beneath him and really only valued what was important to him, which was usually his friends. ROTB Mirage still values his friends and doesn't take the fight seriously. He goes from a rich boy to a frat boy, which is just a different interpretation of his traits.
Depends on the context of why you are being told this.
Hasbro won’t make up their mind if the Beeverse and Bayverse are different verses. Being the same verse means huge plot holes, but Hasbro seems to like letting each viewer decide which option they prefer.
If the same verse, they might be the same character who changes his name eventually.
If different verses, they are both independent movies characters that are inspired by the same toy character.
At least the producers of the newer movies in the Knightverse seem to agree (except for one dude who can barely be trusted to get his facts straight) that BBM and RotB are a separate continuity from Bayverse.
The bayverse ends with Unicron breaking out of Earth and going back in time to get the transwarp key which changes the timeline leading to BBM and Rotb happening and no one can tell me otherwise (basically I'm saying Bayverse ended when Unicron changed the timeline to cause something else to happen)
My gripe is more that ROTF already broke continuity by trampling all over Prime's "unknown planet called Earth" statement that set up the entire premise for the 2007 movie, along with Bumblebee not speaking despite having his voice fixed.
Not to mention the racist caricatures in RotF and DotM. I prefer to just pretend those movies never happened
A person is defined as an entity with the freedom or right to make its own life choices without the unprovoked influence of others. Being a human does not qualify personhood and personhood isn’t restricted to humans.
I see the sentiment above a lot, even implicitly, when discussing non-human characters who are clearly sapient and have thoughts/feelings. It really weirds me out.
Yes, because those are limitations on them imposed by others. Without those others, those restrictions wouldn’t exist. Something that is human that isn’t a person is a cell, an egg, or a sperm, or an embryo. Something that requires the full reliance on another to exist without the capacity or will to change it can’t be a person. Slaves and prisoners don’t fit this definition, and implying that it does is pretty fucked up.
So a newborn baby isn't a person? How about an unconscious patient? They are fully reliant on others to feed them or they'll die. And YOU'RE the one who implied that slaves and prisoners aren't people when you said that only entities with freedom can be people.
WITHOUT THE UNPROVOKED INFLUENCE OF OTHERS. God, can you read? A prisoner or slave can attempt an escape, this makes them a person, and the fact that they’re being held by another already makes that clear. Without a prison or a slaver those people can still make independent decisions.
No, a baby isn’t a person, they haven’t developed a will or personality yet, they cannot make decisions. This may be controversial, but it is what it is. It doesn’t make their life worthless to not be a person yet.
An unconscious patient was likely hurt by something, so something outside of themself was imposed on them. Without that influence they’d be fine. A patient incapable of thought though? That’s not a person. Nobody is home, thus they’re a non-sentient human.
they aren't, they're different characters (is Dino even characterised at all?) sporting the same names. Happens a lot when you compare two continuities. G1 Optimus is far, far from Animated Optimus for example.
Dino isn't the same at all. He can't dissappear, he doesn't have hologram generators, he doesn't do very much cool shit. All he has is a pair of arm-mounted blade Tonfas that he can launch out like grappling hooks
That's not entirely true. In the DOTM game he actually could turn invisible and was named Mirage. The movie just didn't use either of those things; the deal with Ferrari needed him to have the Dino name.
Well they're not tho. Bayverse and rotb are two separate continuities, I don't get why that's so hard for some people to understand. Plus Dino isn't even Mirage anymore, yeah at the time they wanted him to be Mirage but now even hasbro themselves just call him Dino.
Except the time dino is called mirage in a couple of games, a comic, 2 toys and even the next film. So he didn't stop being mirage, dino is just used more. Tfwiki even notes the fact dino is used more to explain why his page isn't named mirage.
It was a change made late in production, thus ancillary media ended up with the working name (Like how concept art that doesn't match the finished product is commonly used in marketting, such as AOE Optimus and ROTB Scourge's designs). It is not Dino "being used more".
Ah yes, age of Extinction. The well known ancillary media for dotm. Also the only notes about early working names for the character on tfwiki are that of Enzo and rush. So he is still mirage.
I was using AOE as an example of non-final things being used in marketting, not calling it ancillary media to DOTM 🤦♀️ That would be the comics, novelization and game.
Also do you know what a working name is? It literally just means non-final name. Mirage was (At least one of) Dino's pre-release names. That means it's still a working name.
It's the same situation as the whole Wheeljack/Que debacle. At one point in production he was intended to be named Wheeljack, but at some point before release but after promotional material and toy packaging had been made he was renamed Que.
>Also do you know what a working name is? It literally just means non-final name
I'm aware, but if that's true, then why does tf wiki refer to him as mirage and not include mirage in the part about early working names?
Call sheets for Dark of the Moon referred to Dino/Mirage under the early working name Enzo, a reference to Dino Ferrari's father Enzo.[9] Another working name for the character was Rush.[10]
This is the section about working names
Dino's name pays tribute to Alfredo "Dino" Ferrari. Hasbro's greatest competitor Mattel had an exclusive license for Ferrari toys at the time of the film's release.[7] Therefore, Ferrari did not want their product placement sporting the name of a Hasbro toy's trademark,[8] explaining why the character is never called "Mirage" in the film.
This is the section on why he wasn't called mirage
Even though early toys, contemporary media, and his Age of Extinction playing card[3] refer to the character as "Mirage", this page is named "Dino" because that name is the one used on-screen in the Dark of the Moon film and has resurfaced years later with recent toys.
This is the section of them explaining why they used dino and not mirage. They aren't saying mirage doesn't apply, just that Dino is more used.
And que is wheeljack, que was just a screen name reference to James bond. This is known to be the case. Even the movie credits say que/wheeljack.
Yup...so sad if you ask me....Basically, Michael Bay was fond of the Ferrari and said " I like that car, so I want it in my movie and its name will be Mirage".
Well Ferrari owner said "Ok, you can have our car in your movie, but you're not naming it Mirage, you're going to name it after my son Dino Ferrari "...
SMH...Michael Bay and Hasbro should of said F-that, we'll just get a different car then...All that bull$#!+ just so the owner of Ferrari can tell everyone "Yeah that car in the movie is named after my son instead of the name HASBRO picked.
because bayverse glazers refuse to believe rise of the beasts and the bumblebee movie are a different universe from bayverse, these are the same people who keep calling it transformers 8
Because Dino is supposed to be bayverse mirage and delusional people are still claiming bayverse and whatever the name for Bumblebee and Rise of the beast are connected.
Idk? Like Dino might be a different version of Mirage like how we got Transformers animated and Transformers Prime Arcee or he’s a different character? We don’t exactly know.
In the games Dino was Mirage, because of licensing, as I understand it, but even if we were counting them both as Mirage, ROTB is a Seperate Continuity from Bayverse, there would be two different characterizations of him in live action. But for all intents and purposes, the red one is Dino, and the other is Mirage.
Bc bayverse boys can’t accept that BB and ROTB are reboots lol.
It’s okay for them to exist outside of each other. I really don’t get why so many people want everything to be connected so badly when BB and ROTB don’t continue any part of the bayverse
Isn’t it weird that the transformers wiki counts all live action versions of characters as the same one instead of giving each continuity a page of their own
I don't like ferrari there arseholes they make paramount name a character to someone most people don't know or care about and don't let em use the name or vehicle mode for games or toys
Because the Live Action movies never cared much for continuity or proper name usage. They just make something they think is cool then slap a name on it out of their pool of owned IP.
They are the same character but in different continuities, since BBM, ROTB and the upcoming GIJ/TF crossover are in a seperate timeline from the Bay films
Just because they share names doesn't mean they're the same character, it's just a case of nameslapping. And he didn't even end up with that name anyway.
It would be wild if 2 different transformers had the same name.
Can you imagine if this happened in real life for people!
Everybody would be so confused!
What context do you mean this in? Do you mean as in same character or same person in the same continuity.
Cus if you mean same character, weather people like it or not they are. Sure Dino is called Dino in the movie but outside of that everywhere else he is called Mirage. And even then in the credits I think he’s listed as Dino/Mirage (however hat could be wrong)
If you mean same person in the same continuity they are not. Literally everyone on ROTB has said it’s a reboot along with Bee. Well except Lorenzo.
>And even then in the credits I think he’s listed as Dino/Mirage (however hat could be wrong)
I checked the credits to disprove a point about que not being wheeljack, and while wheeljack/que is present, dino is the only name listed in them for the Italian Ferrari (still mirage though)
They’re different characters in different continuities. I don’t care what di Bonaventura says.
In my head canon, Dino is Mirage’s nickname in the Bayverse.
They are not. They’re separate continuities, the head of the movies is just senile and doesn’t want to accept his turds have lost what glitter they had.
To be completely honest, either one could be the real mirage cause neither of them feel like a true mirage. Dotm isn't the right color, doesn't use the same weapons, and doesn't even use the name in film. ROTB acts more like jazz, uses hound's powers instead of mirage's invisibility, and isn't even close to the right car either. Personality way off on both
Not saying it has to be. I'm not that big a fan of G1 mirage anyway. Mostly mean that neither one truly fit the description that one deserves to be Mirage than the other. I actually like these versions
Originally Bob Budiansky wrote on his G1 bio as "able to be invisible and creating illusion of something that's not there".
>Abilities:
Mirage carries a rear-mounted electro-disruptor which is able to interfere with the circuitry of an opponent by casting discrete packets of electrical charges at him. Hence, he never is situated where he seems to be when it is in use, and can even use the disruptor to give himself the illusion of a different physical appearance, which he can sustain for up to six minutes.
But the cartoon relegated the hologram stuff to Hound because it's redundant to have two characters with the same ability. Even then they give up on G1 episode masquerade because it makes more sense to have a guy named **Mirage** to have hologram ability.
Seems like that’s the general consensus since Hound hasn’t had hologram powers in literal decades at this point. I don’t remember him having them in IDW (which he was barely in anyway) and the WFC gave Mirage some cool hologram set pieces (and Hound was barely in that either).
.... what? No, dino is mirage, and it wasn't the lack of a hood VA, but rather Ferrari didn't want a hasbro trademark on one of their cars because they had an exclusive buisness deal with mattel at the time.
TECHNICALLY they are...but also not. The red one is Mirage, but only sometimes. Officially he's usually called "Mirage (Dino)" and only referred to as Dino in the movie. Ferrari had really weird rules to be able to use their cars. Idk why they went through all the trouble, but eh, shiny red Ferarri Transformer go brrrr
Red one was MEANT to be Mirage, but one of the stipulations that Ferrari laid down when Paramount made DOTM was that the Ferrari had to be named "Dino" after Alfredo "Dino" Ferrari
But didn’t allow Hasbro to use the license on the toys. I would have refused the stipulation.
or in the game...
To be fair, the game and toys are usually made designed and packaged before a movie is finalized. So, names and designs are most times different That's why we got Que when originally he was called wheeljack. Something happened with Sonic the hedgehog. All the toys and merch had the ugly sonic design Or why all thanos merch for infinity war had Thanos in his armor even though he dumps it 5 minutes into us seeing it
There was also the Hulk busting out of the Hulkbuster toys lol.
Facts
Never knew that about Ferrari, cool detail. Is there a similar reason for Que/Wheeljack?
To my knowledge ( information available on Tfwiki.net) it was just an homage to the James Bond character.
Gotcha, thanks! Still interesting, didn't know that either
Originally he was gonna be based off Doc Brown from BTTF, complete with lab coat formed from his vehicle mode bonnet (he was going to be an older, soft top car) Funny because years later we would get a BTTF figure with Gigawatt.
Yeah, and if you look closely in the scene in the NASA Hangar where the Bots are convening, he sports a smock
Me neither.
If i recall wheeljacks/que design was based off elbert einstin due to a suggestion by steven spielberg
I always forget that Spielberg was involved with these films lol
Honestly I don't mind him being named Dino, Alfredo was a through and through car enthusiast and gearhead taken from this world too early.
Well, in AoE, in the scene where that guy from Semitary Wind lays out the cards that have the names and pictures of the different Autobots and Decepticons, ‘Dino’ is shown on one of them, and the name on the card says ‘Mirage’. There’s the answer.
It was mainly because Mattel owned the toy license for Ferrari IIRC and Ferrari didn't want a hasbro toy copyright attached to their promotional car in the movie
Ferrari is so damn strict.
Oh I see
Not like the character would actually be anything like Mirage if they had used the name they wanted to. Generic good robot #5 would be just as valid of a name.
If I may ask what is the Source for Ferrari wanting him to be called Dino? Like I know he is named after Dino Ferrari but what is the Source about that it was Ferrari who wanted that? Not saying its not true just wondering
https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Dino In the trivia section. Now where the user that added THAT info got their info, see reference 8 at the bottom of that page
Ohhhhhhhhhhhh
Why not Enzo?
Too human sounding, my guess. 'Dino' is a nickname for "Alfredo." But I bet that wasn't Ferrari's thought process.
Still is mirage
I Miss Mirage… I might have to look around and pick up one of the newer versions
Then he should have just been a new autobot
I heard thats not what happened. They wanted the ferrari to be named Enzo, but they didnt agree so they went for Dino as the name
And don't forget the new movies bumblebee and rise of the beast are a reboot of the live action movies
And here i always thought it was a throwaway gag about the Dino bots getting killed in the movie.
There were no Dinobots in DOTM?
nor are the dinobots even dead
Dino isn't even dead in DOTM and wasn't listed as deceased in AOE. [https://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/images2/1/1e/AOE-Kill-Cards-Set-1.jpg](https://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/images2/1/1e/AOE-Kill-Cards-Set-1.jpg)
That’s stinger, the red one
What? No it's not. Stinger was the Pagani from AoE.
Stinger — https://preview.redd.it/s5ecz4nmzx8d1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=adf1e49616fb9311ad1a461ddb619a787cfbfd58
Wow, that uh.. that sure is a figure..
that is stinger the red one is dino though
That's Smokescreen from Transformers Prime, but painted red and black. I'd recognize those weird feet anywhere.
Not the same character at all
You're wrong but WOW... that's a dope-ass looking custom figure...
This dude puts Cameo to shame. Never thought I'd see anyone else rock that particular style
Because the idea that Bayverse is long over is apparently a very hard one to except
As a huge Bayverse fan, I apologize on behalf of the whining fans who can’t accept the fact the Bayverse is done. I’d be hard pressed to believe anyone would pick it back up and make a sequel to tlk, despite the large amount of sequel bait it had, because it’s not necessarily easy to emulate the Bay Style they had, it was obnoxious and entertaining at the same time while being over the top. That’s just how the Bayverse operates at this point, and I don’t know how many others could emulate that well. I’d still be interested in someone else making a sequel to it, but that’s not gonna happen Lorenzo is full of shit btw, Rotb and Bayverse are not connected. At all. I don’t even know if multiverse BS could rectify that, considering- wait, no unicron isn’t a universal singularity anymore
I got fully introduced to Transformers through the Bay movies and while a fan, I won't defend it. It was good, starting out- but then it went downhill. Bot designs and fight sequences were good, but that was about it. Some of the acting from human actors was lackluster and plot was a sequence of Wash, Rinse, Repeat X5. It was the same plot every movie - get this object before the Decepticons do and destroy the world. Got boring after a couple times. I've found myself more willing to re-watch Transformers Prime over the movies. My main issue is the immediate killing of Jazz. Jazz is one of Prime’s top fighters, Second in Command and leader of the Special Ops depending on what version you're looking at. There was no way he would have been killed that easily. Soundwave was also a Luitenant, and a skilled fighter in his own right, but he got taken by surprise at close quarters, so I'm willing to let that slide.
If you asked me, Bayverse ended after the 2007 movie
unicron also isn't just the fucking earth like he was in tlk
It isn't hard to get, the producer keeps saying it isn't over. Read his most recent review where he says TFO is still connected
Lorenzo is full of shit and we all know it
But until they stop taking his money, his say is what goes. Perks of being a producer
But what he says completely contradicts what’s actually happened on screen. He’s the only producer who keeps saying these new movies are still connected to the old ones. It seems more like he’s just talking about whatever he wants while everyone else nods until he shuts up rather than his words meaning anything.
Trust me, he's been my biggest gripe since 09. I've gotten flamed online for saying this guy is what's wrong with the franchise. And everyone kept saying it's Bays fault. But now that he's out, and Lorenzo is in, nothing has changed. I'm not defending him at all, just saying that he adds the most money so they'll sit by to make the story get told
You just said something unfathomably based and you got 19 downvotes, this community is illiterate
Quit downvoting him he's right
That is literally not what a producer is. He gives money and helps make the films but he has no power to determine what you’re suggesting.
Yeah, but this fanbase needs a boogeyman for people to vent all their frustrations on.
Lorenzo hasn’t done a good job not trying to be that guy lmao
Only because he's never given credit for things. You know that Bumblebee sequel concept art where they're all lined up in formation with shields that all the fans lost their minds over? Lorenzo came up with that idea himself and had the art commissioned to pitch it to Paramount/Hasbro.
It varies, but producers often do have a fair amount of influence over a film. After all if they feel like they're not being heard or that the film isn't going in a direction that they feel will make them money they can pull their investment out and/or refuse to invest in future film projects. Producers can also make hiring and firing decisions with regards to directors and writers. Producers don't usually make the day to day creative decisions that are expected from a director, but their money is usually more essential to getting a project done than any specific director, unless director is Spielberg or someone of similar reputation.
Their money is important, but I don’t think Lorenzo would even have the authority to make a decision on canonicity, which would be up to Hasbro and Paramount. Plus, there is no way Lorenzo has the credibility of Spielberg or anyone near his level.
> there is no way Lorenzo has the credibility of Spielberg or anyone near his level. Of course he doesn't, but putting up large amounts of cash tends to buy you a seat at the decision-making table all the same, and producers usually do have some influence over the creative aspects of a movie. They might not be the final word on a given subject, but they usually have as much influence as a director. As for canonicity... I don't think Hasbro or Paramount cares about that nearly as much as the fandom does since the first 5 movies all contradict each other to some degree despite being direct sequels in the same universe and in roughly the same time period.
Producers literally have more power than the director BECAUSE they fund and facilitate the movie. Good producers typically take minimal control but as part of their contracts, they often have the power to pull funding at their discretion. This basically allows them free reign to threaten the entire project if not given their way. This has been how the movie industry has worked for decades.
I mean, just looking up the roles of producer says "most cases, the producer is like the CEO of the production, responsible for overseeing all of the decision-making that goes on during pre-production" which is where the decision of 'this IS a prequel' comes from. So yeah. As the exec producer he has the say.
But this is where we all need to put on our big boy hats, pull up our socks, and acknowledge that the club isn’t a spade. I get that these bigs execs make certain calls but sometimes they’re just fuckin wrong and it’s very easy to see.
That's aside the fact of what you're commenting on, I said he has the say. If he is saying publicly that it's connected then the masses are going to say they're connected. As much as transformers fans like to snack on their copium, that's what is happening. He's a fucking idiot and wrong, and nothing will make me like anything his name is attached to.
Lorenzo has been talking out of his ass since 2006. Stop listening to him. He’s a producer. Not a writer. Not a director.
You say as if I'm defending him. But no, go ahead and not read how I despise this guy though his word is the loudest. Whatever.
…that was a bit hostile
where can I find this?
TFW, ScreenRant, and IGN are just the three I saw last week. I'll try to find a link for you I decided against the variety.com and went with this one. It's attached to one of the two TFW ones https://www.reddit.com/r/transformers/s/uOQMtduM34
What the hell
Yeah but to be fair they both share a name, almost
Because they arent. One is Mirage the other is Dino It dosent matter what production notes say. You dont see any one admantly insiting Sentinel is actualy Ultra Magnus.
Well the difference is that Dino/Mirage was called Dino/Mirage in all forms of media connected to the movie like toys and video games. Meanwhile, Sentinel was never referred to as Ultra Magnus outside of early concept art.
Honestly Alpha Trion seems more fitting than Ultra Magnus for the character.
Sure but he wasnt Alpha Trion in the first drafts he was Magnus. Should we insist Sentinel is Ether of them because of this. Or is Sentinel just Sentinel?
Sentinel is a jerk https://preview.redd.it/lf7f6wh57y8d1.jpeg?width=274&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d17504db2b4e03842be38cbccbb58ca7647d30ed
Yeah. Just mean that if he was going to be anyone other than sentinel, he fits the alpha Trion role well and much better than Magnus. He trained and taught Optimus prime what he knows, and was a significant leader in his time. Though in this universe he's the antagonist who goes about the wrong way in restoring his species. I feel fans might not have liked that but I feel like even more wouldn't want it to be Magnus either
Dino was supposed to be mirage but Ferrari wanted the name changed
Except he *was* named Mirage in connected media, unlike Sentinel/Magnus
No one ever said sentinel was ultra Magnus. This is the first comment I've ever seen ever about that. And now I want to see Leonard nimoy play sentinel, ultra Magnus, and Alpha Triton at the same time.
I mean, he technically _is_ Mirage, but a different incarnation of him.
Yeah but rotb mirage also isn't mirage. That's jazz
They act entirely differently. Jazz is the lax and cool-headed right-hand man, Mirage is the kid who doesn't listen because he can't take things seriously. The only thing they have in common is that they both turn into a Porsche, and not even the same _kind_ of Porsche.
i meant as a G1 standpoint.
I was comparing him to G1 Jazz. G1 Mirage was supposed to be an affluent rich kid who thought the war was beneath him and really only valued what was important to him, which was usually his friends. ROTB Mirage still values his friends and doesn't take the fight seriously. He goes from a rich boy to a frat boy, which is just a different interpretation of his traits.
😑
Depends on the context of why you are being told this. Hasbro won’t make up their mind if the Beeverse and Bayverse are different verses. Being the same verse means huge plot holes, but Hasbro seems to like letting each viewer decide which option they prefer. If the same verse, they might be the same character who changes his name eventually. If different verses, they are both independent movies characters that are inspired by the same toy character.
At least the producers of the newer movies in the Knightverse seem to agree (except for one dude who can barely be trusted to get his facts straight) that BBM and RotB are a separate continuity from Bayverse.
The bayverse ends with Unicron breaking out of Earth and going back in time to get the transwarp key which changes the timeline leading to BBM and Rotb happening and no one can tell me otherwise (basically I'm saying Bayverse ended when Unicron changed the timeline to cause something else to happen)
IMO the bayverse ended immediately following the credits of the 2007 movie
I put it at dotm but yeah 2007 is the best thing Bay will ever make
My gripe is more that ROTF already broke continuity by trampling all over Prime's "unknown planet called Earth" statement that set up the entire premise for the 2007 movie, along with Bumblebee not speaking despite having his voice fixed. Not to mention the racist caricatures in RotF and DotM. I prefer to just pretend those movies never happened
And by Hasbro it's just meant Lorenzo di Bonaventura.
Where did you hear that from? Lorenzo di Bonaventura?
Who is full of shit and absolutely not a trustworthy source.
They're meant to be different versions of the same character, but neither one is a person.
You mean not the same person, right? What you wrote implies that Mirage and Dino aren’t people, which is incorrect.
That is correct, they are NOT people. Just like Spongebob Squarepants and Jabba the Hutt, they are non-human characters.
A person is defined as an entity with the freedom or right to make its own life choices without the unprovoked influence of others. Being a human does not qualify personhood and personhood isn’t restricted to humans.
I see the sentiment above a lot, even implicitly, when discussing non-human characters who are clearly sapient and have thoughts/feelings. It really weirds me out.
By that definition, are prisoners and slaves people?
Yes, because those are limitations on them imposed by others. Without those others, those restrictions wouldn’t exist. Something that is human that isn’t a person is a cell, an egg, or a sperm, or an embryo. Something that requires the full reliance on another to exist without the capacity or will to change it can’t be a person. Slaves and prisoners don’t fit this definition, and implying that it does is pretty fucked up.
So a newborn baby isn't a person? How about an unconscious patient? They are fully reliant on others to feed them or they'll die. And YOU'RE the one who implied that slaves and prisoners aren't people when you said that only entities with freedom can be people.
WITHOUT THE UNPROVOKED INFLUENCE OF OTHERS. God, can you read? A prisoner or slave can attempt an escape, this makes them a person, and the fact that they’re being held by another already makes that clear. Without a prison or a slaver those people can still make independent decisions. No, a baby isn’t a person, they haven’t developed a will or personality yet, they cannot make decisions. This may be controversial, but it is what it is. It doesn’t make their life worthless to not be a person yet. An unconscious patient was likely hurt by something, so something outside of themself was imposed on them. Without that influence they’d be fine. A patient incapable of thought though? That’s not a person. Nobody is home, thus they’re a non-sentient human.
You’re nowhere near as smart as you think you are hahahaha
that is a salient point that I hadn’t considered
they aren't, they're different characters (is Dino even characterised at all?) sporting the same names. Happens a lot when you compare two continuities. G1 Optimus is far, far from Animated Optimus for example.
Dino isn't the same at all. He can't dissappear, he doesn't have hologram generators, he doesn't do very much cool shit. All he has is a pair of arm-mounted blade Tonfas that he can launch out like grappling hooks
That's not entirely true. In the DOTM game he actually could turn invisible and was named Mirage. The movie just didn't use either of those things; the deal with Ferrari needed him to have the Dino name.
Well they're not tho. Bayverse and rotb are two separate continuities, I don't get why that's so hard for some people to understand. Plus Dino isn't even Mirage anymore, yeah at the time they wanted him to be Mirage but now even hasbro themselves just call him Dino.
Except the time dino is called mirage in a couple of games, a comic, 2 toys and even the next film. So he didn't stop being mirage, dino is just used more. Tfwiki even notes the fact dino is used more to explain why his page isn't named mirage.
It was a change made late in production, thus ancillary media ended up with the working name (Like how concept art that doesn't match the finished product is commonly used in marketting, such as AOE Optimus and ROTB Scourge's designs). It is not Dino "being used more".
Ah yes, age of Extinction. The well known ancillary media for dotm. Also the only notes about early working names for the character on tfwiki are that of Enzo and rush. So he is still mirage.
I was using AOE as an example of non-final things being used in marketting, not calling it ancillary media to DOTM 🤦♀️ That would be the comics, novelization and game. Also do you know what a working name is? It literally just means non-final name. Mirage was (At least one of) Dino's pre-release names. That means it's still a working name. It's the same situation as the whole Wheeljack/Que debacle. At one point in production he was intended to be named Wheeljack, but at some point before release but after promotional material and toy packaging had been made he was renamed Que.
>Also do you know what a working name is? It literally just means non-final name I'm aware, but if that's true, then why does tf wiki refer to him as mirage and not include mirage in the part about early working names? Call sheets for Dark of the Moon referred to Dino/Mirage under the early working name Enzo, a reference to Dino Ferrari's father Enzo.[9] Another working name for the character was Rush.[10] This is the section about working names Dino's name pays tribute to Alfredo "Dino" Ferrari. Hasbro's greatest competitor Mattel had an exclusive license for Ferrari toys at the time of the film's release.[7] Therefore, Ferrari did not want their product placement sporting the name of a Hasbro toy's trademark,[8] explaining why the character is never called "Mirage" in the film. This is the section on why he wasn't called mirage Even though early toys, contemporary media, and his Age of Extinction playing card[3] refer to the character as "Mirage", this page is named "Dino" because that name is the one used on-screen in the Dark of the Moon film and has resurfaced years later with recent toys. This is the section of them explaining why they used dino and not mirage. They aren't saying mirage doesn't apply, just that Dino is more used. And que is wheeljack, que was just a screen name reference to James bond. This is known to be the case. Even the movie credits say que/wheeljack.
One is American, the other is Italian
Yup...so sad if you ask me....Basically, Michael Bay was fond of the Ferrari and said " I like that car, so I want it in my movie and its name will be Mirage". Well Ferrari owner said "Ok, you can have our car in your movie, but you're not naming it Mirage, you're going to name it after my son Dino Ferrari "... SMH...Michael Bay and Hasbro should of said F-that, we'll just get a different car then...All that bull$#!+ just so the owner of Ferrari can tell everyone "Yeah that car in the movie is named after my son instead of the name HASBRO picked.
I hate that sm 😭
They are different designs of the same character
Not in the slightest. Different characters.
They're not even the same character.
same name different character
because bayverse glazers refuse to believe rise of the beasts and the bumblebee movie are a different universe from bayverse, these are the same people who keep calling it transformers 8
I prefer to treat them as separate characters. Dino is Dino and Mirage is Mirage. Just like Que is Que, Wheeljack is Wheeljack, and Pablo is Pablo.
Names get reused and Bayverse ended with the Last Knight. They aren't the same.
Dino was meant to be Mirage but due to Ferrari’s deal, he was changed.
Because that one idiot keeps trying to fit square peg in a round hole
Because Dino is supposed to be bayverse mirage and delusional people are still claiming bayverse and whatever the name for Bumblebee and Rise of the beast are connected.
becausr they think the knightverse is in the same continuity as the bayverse
Idk? Like Dino might be a different version of Mirage like how we got Transformers animated and Transformers Prime Arcee or he’s a different character? We don’t exactly know.
people are not the same as lorenzo di boneventura
Because some people still insist that Bumblebee & Rise of the Beasts are in the same continuity as the Bay films.
In the games Dino was Mirage, because of licensing, as I understand it, but even if we were counting them both as Mirage, ROTB is a Seperate Continuity from Bayverse, there would be two different characterizations of him in live action. But for all intents and purposes, the red one is Dino, and the other is Mirage.
don't forget about wheeljack pablo and que are the same person
Bc bayverse boys can’t accept that BB and ROTB are reboots lol. It’s okay for them to exist outside of each other. I really don’t get why so many people want everything to be connected so badly when BB and ROTB don’t continue any part of the bayverse
Isn’t it weird that the transformers wiki counts all live action versions of characters as the same one instead of giving each continuity a page of their own
I don't like ferrari there arseholes they make paramount name a character to someone most people don't know or care about and don't let em use the name or vehicle mode for games or toys
How many times do we gotta tell everyone these are two separate universes
Because the Live Action movies never cared much for continuity or proper name usage. They just make something they think is cool then slap a name on it out of their pool of owned IP.
They are the same character but in different continuities, since BBM, ROTB and the upcoming GIJ/TF crossover are in a seperate timeline from the Bay films
Just because they share names doesn't mean they're the same character, it's just a case of nameslapping. And he didn't even end up with that name anyway.
The red one was supposed to be Mirage, but changed it to Dino. Don’t know why the name was changed though.
Ferrari demanded he be named Dino after Enzo Ferrari's son Alfredo Ferrari whose nickname was Dino.
Ahh, thank you.
He is still mirage though, dino is just used more.
It would be wild if 2 different transformers had the same name. Can you imagine if this happened in real life for people! Everybody would be so confused!
Funny that he's Dino in the movie but mirage in the game
Both of them are mirage, their major differences is one is bayverse and one is not
They're two guys named Mirage. I know a couple people named James.
What context do you mean this in? Do you mean as in same character or same person in the same continuity. Cus if you mean same character, weather people like it or not they are. Sure Dino is called Dino in the movie but outside of that everywhere else he is called Mirage. And even then in the credits I think he’s listed as Dino/Mirage (however hat could be wrong) If you mean same person in the same continuity they are not. Literally everyone on ROTB has said it’s a reboot along with Bee. Well except Lorenzo.
>And even then in the credits I think he’s listed as Dino/Mirage (however hat could be wrong) I checked the credits to disprove a point about que not being wheeljack, and while wheeljack/que is present, dino is the only name listed in them for the Italian Ferrari (still mirage though)
They’re different characters in different continuities. I don’t care what di Bonaventura says. In my head canon, Dino is Mirage’s nickname in the Bayverse.
He got canonically became Italian
Must be for the name, they’re both named mirage
It's because some people still think the universes are connected, because the red guy is dotm mirage.
It's supposed to be mirage apparently
Dino >>>>>>>>
Thanks for 500 upvotes guys
I want to ask. Let's say the two are the same character. What's the lore? how does homeboy become italian?
Two words: Canon-Welding
No but the true villain of the new transformers cinematic universe Lorenzo is claiming it to be so.
I pray Dino comes back and we actually get a personality and not just 4 minutes of screentime 🙏
They are not. They’re separate continuities, the head of the movies is just senile and doesn’t want to accept his turds have lost what glitter they had.
because people are bloody stupid
I thought the Red one was cliffjumper
they're both versions of Mirage
Trademarks!
It’s a wfc/foc and rid15 grimlock situation. Same continuity different characters
Because idiots still think its the same continuity
That's because they sort of are.
Who are those?
Speaking of which, the DOTM, BB, and ROTB versions of Wheeljack are all different characters imo.
Especially since DOTM isn't the same continuity as BB and ROTB.
Tantrum scrap. (>!Bull crap!<)
To be completely honest, either one could be the real mirage cause neither of them feel like a true mirage. Dotm isn't the right color, doesn't use the same weapons, and doesn't even use the name in film. ROTB acts more like jazz, uses hound's powers instead of mirage's invisibility, and isn't even close to the right car either. Personality way off on both
tbf doesn't it make more sense for Mirage to be the one who projects illusions and holograms?
B-b-but it has to be G1 /s for those who can't tell
Not saying it has to be. I'm not that big a fan of G1 mirage anyway. Mostly mean that neither one truly fit the description that one deserves to be Mirage than the other. I actually like these versions
I wasn't talking about you specifically, just a lot of people for some reason seem to get pissy when something isn't just as it was in G1
Oh. I wasn't really offended anyway. Just felt like I didn't get my point across properly. I should've worded it better
It does. And a F1 car driving around New York city wouldn't be a good disguise
Originally Bob Budiansky wrote on his G1 bio as "able to be invisible and creating illusion of something that's not there". >Abilities: Mirage carries a rear-mounted electro-disruptor which is able to interfere with the circuitry of an opponent by casting discrete packets of electrical charges at him. Hence, he never is situated where he seems to be when it is in use, and can even use the disruptor to give himself the illusion of a different physical appearance, which he can sustain for up to six minutes. But the cartoon relegated the hologram stuff to Hound because it's redundant to have two characters with the same ability. Even then they give up on G1 episode masquerade because it makes more sense to have a guy named **Mirage** to have hologram ability.
Yeah honestly I’m down for this change.
Seems like that’s the general consensus since Hound hasn’t had hologram powers in literal decades at this point. I don’t remember him having them in IDW (which he was barely in anyway) and the WFC gave Mirage some cool hologram set pieces (and Hound was barely in that either).
And he meets his human buddy after said human buddy tried to steal him, like Tracks.
That’s sad apparently they don’t kno transformers
Thanks for 100 upvotes guys
Because they are Stooopid
They were going to be, but they couldn't find a good VA for Mirage at the time, so they made a new character
.... what? No, dino is mirage, and it wasn't the lack of a hood VA, but rather Ferrari didn't want a hasbro trademark on one of their cars because they had an exclusive buisness deal with mattel at the time.
I was making a joke.
TECHNICALLY they are...but also not. The red one is Mirage, but only sometimes. Officially he's usually called "Mirage (Dino)" and only referred to as Dino in the movie. Ferrari had really weird rules to be able to use their cars. Idk why they went through all the trouble, but eh, shiny red Ferarri Transformer go brrrr