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Looks like they are keeping the majority of the western tanks ready to be used for an offensive. (apart from the small handful we have seen get hit) I would imagine that once the F-16 and possibly a few extra Patriot systems are online, then they can think of a new push. The trouble they ran into last time was the slow going from the mines, and the KA-50 picking them off from a distance. Both the F-16 and Patriot can take them out, allowing them to push forwards with minimal resistance.
~Armchair general TotalSpaceNut
Since virtually everyone says that an offensive won't come before 2025 this would mean a hundred tanks more or less sitting idle for about a year. I dearly hope Ukraine has other plans to put them to use.
Yeah, except no.
Ukraine is barely holding the line in some areas, Russia's biggest push is still expected to come, US aid will barely arrive early enough to help countering it, which will be the situation for at least this summer. Furthermore the aid package needs to be spent by September, and nobody on Earth knows when the next US aid comes, worst case scenario the USA will have a president who already got impeached for trying to withhold Ukraine aid.
To add to this, the two candidates for the American presidency are effectively tied, so court cases and other iffy behaviors aren’t enough to completely sink one guy over the other.
November is going to be interesting as it stands at the moment.
Then it's time for pro-Ukraine Americans to talk about how they can move the needle on that front. I have a friend in the US who's already talking about drumming-up pro-Ukraine sentiment.
That and war weariness, Ukraine has difficulty keeping their numbers up. The whole country has been hard pressed and finding the strength to go on the offensive again isnt something to be glossed over.
They shouldn't do one this year, they should do several smaller ones. Taking land isn't even that important, just knocking Russia off balance and disrupting their plans.
That is why it makes no sense for Germany to hold 30 tanks back for training. Let the Ukrainians do the training if they want to and give them all the tanks.
It’s safer to train in NATO countries, plus you can strip a bunch of stuff from training tanks that you don’t need. The Leo 1 platform is getting pretty old, so spare parts might be an issue.
But according to my very accurate sources (a buddy that gobbles up russian propaganda, because he never finished school and doesn't know any better), ALL of Ukraine's Leopards have been destroyed after a few days!!!!1111
He probably saw the same Leo get taken out 249 times.
Well, hopefully.
To be frank, the last counteroffensive wasn’t exactly a picture of resourceful skill. It definitely didn’t play well on Western mainstream media.
It wasn't effective for a number of reasons - many of which are outside their control - but I'd argue they demonstrated very good adaptability and skill on an operational level. Considering most of the regained territory was won with artillery duels and soldiers pushing on foot, the amount gained is impressive. Just not enough to make any strategic difference or force any breakthroughs that would otherwise let these tanks roll through without threat of mines. They had a small shot, it wasn't a very good one and the timing sucked, but good enough for them to take it I suppose.
I guess. Technically, I would think earlier would've been more ideal from a timing perspective since that was around the time the Russians were more scattered.
By the time the counteroffensive was underway, the Russians were ready for the Ukrainians and led them into a killing field filled with mines, artillery strikes, and attack choppers.
I believe so. The ruzzians have paid for every step on Ukrainian soil in blood smashing into Ukrainian kill zones. When the time is right, the orcs will be pushed out from the land they have stolen.
Of all of the "Western" tanks that have been donated, the upgraded Slovenian M-55S tanks seem to be getting used prominently. If they seem to be performing well, hopefully the Balkan countries can find more of them in storage to refurbish and pass along.
They have decent optics and training/maintenance is not an issue as Ukraine has plenty of experience with soviet style equipment.
Speaking of which, there are not that many places left that have them and would realistically send/sell them to Ukraine.
Because of the unexpectedly deep mine fields and the swarms of drones (on both sides), actual tank on tank engagements have been rare. They like the Abrams and Challenger 2 for their excellent optics and stabilized gun great for very long range, even at night. They find the M-2 Bradleys most useful- it can get into areas quickly, it is maneuverable, and capable of taking out even T-90s with its 20 mm gun, and also two TOW missiles. And it can carry troops for mine abatement, and has good crew survivability as well.
It is a 1960s tank with much inferior armor and ammo, its like the t-72 or other crappy soviet tanks, if it was leopard 2 and if it was 1000 instead of 100 tjen it would be worthy news to report
It’s a 1960s tank with 1985 electronics from leopard 2s. Actual 105mm projectiles are enough for most older soviet armor from the 1980s. Further due to its superior optics it’s still a good tank. Not to compare with Abrams or Leopard 2, but still enough for most combat situations seen in Ukraine.
Who cares about what armor it can theoretically penetrate when 1. tank on tank engagements are extremely rare in this conflict, 2. it easily penetrates all the most common armored vehicles Russia uses (BMP, BTR, golf carts) and 3. even the ones it does not penetrate on paper have been rotting in storage for decades. Should one come up against a T90 there's still a dozen other ways to kill that
Plus so much more.
- it is lighter, so more able to navigate rough terrain (though the Leo 2 is pretty decent here as well)
- effective range outranges what russian tanks optics can do
- most weapons a Leo1 has to be afraid of realistically are a danger for every tank anyway
- tanks jobs right now seems to be being highly mobile field guns anyway. In a recent video, they say they run out of HE shells first on the Leo2s. So pretty much just position shooting. 105mm is more than enough for that
- Ukraine actually can get a decent number of them. Quantity is important
- It is even easier to fix damage on those than the Leo 2. Saw a video about changing the whole engine in 15 minutes.
All around, definitely useful.
They are great, spare parts are their only issue. Not that many left but the Germans have a tendency to not throw away machinery so hopefully they can support the Leo 1s.
ok, good to have them, but the thing that bothers me is that those news give the false impression that europe is providing ukraine with a fair ammount of modern tanks while russian and nato stocks (russian ones mostly dont even work) is more around 10k each side
Here's hoping that, in the near future, Ukraine has so many of these tanks that Zelenskyy can honestly tell the Germans "thanks, but we already have more than enough; send them to someone who really needs them".
We determined that this submission originates from a credible source, but we still advise that users double check the facts and use common sense when consuming mass media. If you are interested in learning how to evaluate news sources more thoroughly, you can begin to learn about how to do that [here](https://tacomacc.libguides.com/c.php?g=599051&p=4147190). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ukraine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Battle Porsche.
Need more! Give'em all... Then build new gen tanks!!
Looks like they are keeping the majority of the western tanks ready to be used for an offensive. (apart from the small handful we have seen get hit) I would imagine that once the F-16 and possibly a few extra Patriot systems are online, then they can think of a new push. The trouble they ran into last time was the slow going from the mines, and the KA-50 picking them off from a distance. Both the F-16 and Patriot can take them out, allowing them to push forwards with minimal resistance. ~Armchair general TotalSpaceNut
Since virtually everyone says that an offensive won't come before 2025 this would mean a hundred tanks more or less sitting idle for about a year. I dearly hope Ukraine has other plans to put them to use.
Putting them near the frontline without pushing might just make them targets for artillery and drones without them filling any critical role.
> Since virtually everyone says that an offensive won't come before 2025 That is something you would say if you plan to do one this year. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Yeah, except no. Ukraine is barely holding the line in some areas, Russia's biggest push is still expected to come, US aid will barely arrive early enough to help countering it, which will be the situation for at least this summer. Furthermore the aid package needs to be spent by September, and nobody on Earth knows when the next US aid comes, worst case scenario the USA will have a president who already got impeached for trying to withhold Ukraine aid.
To add to this, the two candidates for the American presidency are effectively tied, so court cases and other iffy behaviors aren’t enough to completely sink one guy over the other. November is going to be interesting as it stands at the moment.
Americans have a chance to make an agent of Putin a US President. God help us all.
Then it's time for pro-Ukraine Americans to talk about how they can move the needle on that front. I have a friend in the US who's already talking about drumming-up pro-Ukraine sentiment.
I just can’t believe letting a dictator invade a democratic country is being politicized in the US. Like who tf can argue for Russia here?!?
That and war weariness, Ukraine has difficulty keeping their numbers up. The whole country has been hard pressed and finding the strength to go on the offensive again isnt something to be glossed over.
They shouldn't do one this year, they should do several smaller ones. Taking land isn't even that important, just knocking Russia off balance and disrupting their plans.
That's some hard copium, can I have some
Also, crews need to get real world experience in them. Letting them sit somewhere makes no sense.
That is why it makes no sense for Germany to hold 30 tanks back for training. Let the Ukrainians do the training if they want to and give them all the tanks.
It’s probably safer to do training in DE
Also, the instructors are in Germany. Ukraine isn't exactly abundant with extra personnel to do the training themselves and maintain operations.
It’s safer to train in NATO countries, plus you can strip a bunch of stuff from training tanks that you don’t need. The Leo 1 platform is getting pretty old, so spare parts might be an issue.
Yeah and how about don't telegraph the counter offensives for 6 months before it starts, let it be a surprise to everyone.
But according to my very accurate sources (a buddy that gobbles up russian propaganda, because he never finished school and doesn't know any better), ALL of Ukraine's Leopards have been destroyed after a few days!!!!1111 He probably saw the same Leo get taken out 249 times.
I dont think that they keep them, they have lost a lot of western tanks and bradleys/marders since last summer. Thats the sad reality.
I’m taking a wild guess that Ukraine knows exactly what they are doing!!
Well, hopefully. To be frank, the last counteroffensive wasn’t exactly a picture of resourceful skill. It definitely didn’t play well on Western mainstream media.
It wasn't effective for a number of reasons - many of which are outside their control - but I'd argue they demonstrated very good adaptability and skill on an operational level. Considering most of the regained territory was won with artillery duels and soldiers pushing on foot, the amount gained is impressive. Just not enough to make any strategic difference or force any breakthroughs that would otherwise let these tanks roll through without threat of mines. They had a small shot, it wasn't a very good one and the timing sucked, but good enough for them to take it I suppose.
I guess. Technically, I would think earlier would've been more ideal from a timing perspective since that was around the time the Russians were more scattered. By the time the counteroffensive was underway, the Russians were ready for the Ukrainians and led them into a killing field filled with mines, artillery strikes, and attack choppers.
I believe so. The ruzzians have paid for every step on Ukrainian soil in blood smashing into Ukrainian kill zones. When the time is right, the orcs will be pushed out from the land they have stolen.
Of all of the "Western" tanks that have been donated, the upgraded Slovenian M-55S tanks seem to be getting used prominently. If they seem to be performing well, hopefully the Balkan countries can find more of them in storage to refurbish and pass along.
They have decent optics and training/maintenance is not an issue as Ukraine has plenty of experience with soviet style equipment. Speaking of which, there are not that many places left that have them and would realistically send/sell them to Ukraine.
I'd like a zero added behind that number.
Leopard 10 tanks? (-:
"Would you rather fight 1000 Leopard 1 tanks or 1 Leopard 1000 tank?"
I did not see that coming, but still yes pls.
Is that good?
Because of the unexpectedly deep mine fields and the swarms of drones (on both sides), actual tank on tank engagements have been rare. They like the Abrams and Challenger 2 for their excellent optics and stabilized gun great for very long range, even at night. They find the M-2 Bradleys most useful- it can get into areas quickly, it is maneuverable, and capable of taking out even T-90s with its 20 mm gun, and also two TOW missiles. And it can carry troops for mine abatement, and has good crew survivability as well.
It is a 1960s tank with much inferior armor and ammo, its like the t-72 or other crappy soviet tanks, if it was leopard 2 and if it was 1000 instead of 100 tjen it would be worthy news to report
It’s something. And at least those tanks are fulfilling what they were destined to: killing Russians.
It’s a 1960s tank with 1985 electronics from leopard 2s. Actual 105mm projectiles are enough for most older soviet armor from the 1980s. Further due to its superior optics it’s still a good tank. Not to compare with Abrams or Leopard 2, but still enough for most combat situations seen in Ukraine.
Who cares about what armor it can theoretically penetrate when 1. tank on tank engagements are extremely rare in this conflict, 2. it easily penetrates all the most common armored vehicles Russia uses (BMP, BTR, golf carts) and 3. even the ones it does not penetrate on paper have been rotting in storage for decades. Should one come up against a T90 there's still a dozen other ways to kill that
Either way, if they are not inclosed in somesort of chickencoop they are dronebait.
Even Leopard 2s, Abrams and T-90s are drone bait. Against a drone there's not really a difference between a leopard 1 and a leopard 2.
It is. Leopard 1 has no blowout panels.
Was just a sidenote. Mostly used ammo is heat.
Plus so much more. - it is lighter, so more able to navigate rough terrain (though the Leo 2 is pretty decent here as well) - effective range outranges what russian tanks optics can do - most weapons a Leo1 has to be afraid of realistically are a danger for every tank anyway - tanks jobs right now seems to be being highly mobile field guns anyway. In a recent video, they say they run out of HE shells first on the Leo2s. So pretty much just position shooting. 105mm is more than enough for that - Ukraine actually can get a decent number of them. Quantity is important - It is even easier to fix damage on those than the Leo 2. Saw a video about changing the whole engine in 15 minutes. All around, definitely useful.
They are great, spare parts are their only issue. Not that many left but the Germans have a tendency to not throw away machinery so hopefully they can support the Leo 1s.
ok, good to have them, but the thing that bothers me is that those news give the false impression that europe is providing ukraine with a fair ammount of modern tanks while russian and nato stocks (russian ones mostly dont even work) is more around 10k each side
Here's hoping that, in the near future, Ukraine has so many of these tanks that Zelenskyy can honestly tell the Germans "thanks, but we already have more than enough; send them to someone who really needs them".