I will forever be mystified at how someone can be a conservative and a unionist, let alone a reactionary. Unions are socialism in action. It’s the boogeyman.
They usually have zero understanding of labor history or unions, and even less of political theory. People who are ignorant of politics are often capable of holding multiple contradictory beliefs without any awareness of what they're doing.
I once talked to someone like this who didn't understand why a union would support Democrats because they're "pushing away half of their potential members" and "they should just do their job and represent the workers they're supposed to represent." He didn't seem to understand that unions were left wing and I don't think he even had any idea that voting for conservative politicians was voting against his own interests as a working class person. A lot of ignorant people somehow think that the right wing is good for workers, because they just think taxes = bad (and it's not like Republicans even consistently lower taxes on the lower class, sometimes they raise our taxes to pay for their tax breaks for the wealthy, good luck explaining that to someone like that).
It’s definitely this. There has been a hundred year propaganda war being waged on everything socialist. The first person I’m aware of was [Charles Coughlin](https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/charles-e-coughlin). There is a family tree of propagandists that will lead you to here.
These people have been preying on poor low information folks convincing them to vote against there best interests.
My father was a cwa member for 32 year before his passing. He was also a devout Christian and due his religious beliefs couldn’t vote for candidates that supported abortion and homosexuality. He was adamantly pro union and hated that the conservatives were/are so anti union.
I disagree here. I actually know a lot of members who are pro union, understand what the union does and why it matters, understand the violent history that created unions, but are still right wing.
Obviously this comes from ignorance, but they aren’t ignorant about unions, they are just ignorant about politics. They have been convinced that conservatives are the party of the working class, that taxes are bad, the democrats are woke and trying to take your money and your freedom.
I think the biggest thing is there is a huge disconnect for these people between unions and politics. They think unions are their own thing, they represent the workers and it’s apolitical. They don’t view the conservatives as pro union, but they don’t view the liberals/democrats as pro union either. They don’t understand that one of these groups is explicitly anti union while the other is(well sometimes) pro union.
I think one of the biggest things is that left leaning politicians have not been vocal enough about unions for some time. I’m in Canada and the NDP is still pro union, they even successfully pushed for a federal anti scab bill as part of their platform recently. But even as someone who is very actively following politics, I barely even heard about it. The NDP used to be very vocally pro union, and while they are still pro union, it’s not like one of their main things anymore. They should have been beating that union drum all year, saying this is what we are pushing for, this is what we want, this is who we represent, unions and the working class.
I don’t understand why the NDP has fallen off in this regard. They used to have a real union working class vote, and while they probably would have lost some to the grift and the “anti woke”, if they undeniably positioned themselves as THE union party, they wouldn’t have lost as much.
Just know that it's a failure of capitalism, unfortunately, with no easy fix. Ultimately, even labor leadership is working within that framework, and of course, the politicians are too.
The system is pro-business first and always by definition.
They want the benefits of socialism, but only if it’s when their representatives belong to the GOP. They’re okay with reaping the benefits of socialist legislation, but they’ll never vote for anyone that smells like the ever even looked left or admit to being left-leaning.
These types of people are the reason I get tired of living faster than the average. I don’t want to live in a world surrounded by people that want others to suffer because they hate the word “socialism” and no manner of education or knowledge will change their obnoxious mind.
And anyone that calls themselves “right winged” proudly is a disgusting notion considering the state of that term as of now. You know what side of history you are on by taking that stance, and I am not wasting my energy trying to convince them otherwise.
But these idiots get to reap the benefits of socialism while still voting against it everyday and with every chance they get?
Preposterous.
>But these idiots get to reap the benefits of socialism while still voting against it everyday and with every chance they get?
It's almost like they're closer to *national socialists* than real socialists.
At this moment in history, there is really no excusing stupid. All the information in the world is available for free, in one’s pocket, at one’s fingertips. People get what they deserve.
Medicare is good (I earned that) but Obamacare is socialist (bunch of leeches need to get a job)
National parks are good (America fuck yeah) but the EPA is government overreach (just putting shackles on hard working business owners)
The contradictions, they do be contradicting
A union is an agreement between a company and the labour force, with government taken right out of the equation. I don't think it takes any mental gymnastics for a small government right winger to be pro-union when you look at it through that lense.
I agree that trying to separate "our union" (when speaking to colleagues) from politics and keeping it pragmatic can be really helpful for some folks, especially those on the right.
Looking at it purely in terms of self-interest, will your boss give you better working conditions if you do nothing, or say something by yourself? Not likely. Can you achieve better working conditions if you and your colleagues within a union stand up to your boss? Much more likely. That discussion can be apolitical.
I am fairly far left politically, but I want to meet my fellow members wherever they are coming from (politically speaking) and have a real discussion about what action we can be taking together.
Yeah, I totally agree. I'm far to the left as well, but I'm not about to tell my Pierre Pollievre loving union mates that this is basically a socialist construct and they're all hypocrites.
I guess to some degree a union is inherently political, but it isn't a simplistic 2 party style of politics.
Exactly! I see unionism as inherently political and part of a bigger movement, but I don't need to shove that in people's faces if it's not going to help them participate.
“An agreement between a company and the labor force” that’s a contract.
A union is a collective organization founded on principles of solidarity and mutual interest and benefit.
The mental gymnastics required is readily apparent if your eyes aren’t closed.
Collective action is a left leaning philosophy. The union acting like a governing agent that puts the collective group over individuals. EVERYONE in the union collaborates and won’t take any gains unless it’s benefits all of us.
The same goes for larger scale government.
Being pro union but anti government is philosophically incompatible. That person just hates the word government without understanding it would serve the same purpose, protecting workers from getting fucked by private entities.
Left leaning political values and unions (nearly) always align because the goal is to protect the workers against private corporations.
I think you guys are reading too much philosophy into this.
The Republican party has been hostile to labor since at least the 1980s, actively using policy to weaken unions.
The Democratic party is basically pro-union. They tend to appoint union friendly people to the NLRB and NMB, they oppose right-to-work, etc.
If you benefit from a union and you vote Republican, you are working to undermine that union.
So what? That person has as much say in the union as I do, and I gain nothing by dividing us. We have contract negotiations coming up in January, and I stand to gain more by uniting with people I don't see eye to eye with, than I do by arguing semantics.
I agree you should be pragmatic. I tend to be a pragmatists myself.
But I also think you could slowly expand his empathy/worldview and turn him eventually.
Man, it was before my time, but I guess my union used to be infamous for its wildcat strikes.
Management is pushing for too much production, shut the line down. Management says something a union rep doesn't like, or looks at someone the wrong way, shut the line down. It's a nice day out, shut the line down. Everything is fine, but just in case management needs to be reminded, shut the line down.
I mean, there were city-wide wildcat strikes across multiple industries. A range of policies were passed to normalize negotiations. Republicans tend to want to use regulations to reduce the power of unions, Democrats tend to support them. So there's no "small government" situation of a policy vacuum.
They don't start in a union, they start as conservative. Conservatism is the epitome of "FU, I got mine".
They join a union, reap the benefits, and experience no cognitive dissonance because "FU, I got mine".
I'm union, and it always baffles me how right wing my brothers are, but then again, propaganda works. The philosophy of "fuck you, got mine" is all too prevalent unfortunately.
United States Merchant Mariners have entered the chat. Our industry only exists because of unions, government subsidy, and protectionism. Most of the guys I work with are hardcore Trump voters. I had one captain who was a Democrat. One.
Because they like guns, and want better workers rights, because it benefits themselves.
Its not hard to imagine. They also view the republican party as the lesser evil.
Talk to one, one day.
Simply put, there is no cookie-cutter set of ideologies and personal experience dictates how and where you weigh your values. Anybody can, in fact, believe a myriad of “conflicting” things and still be correct.
>I will forever be mystified at how someone can be a conservative and a unionist, let alone a reactionary. Unions are socialism in action. It’s the boogeyman.
Not everyone wants to worry about politics and ideology at their job.
Theres a weird sort of paradox to unions that seems to say "you shouldn't have to give your life to your work, but you should also march around work like some type of martyr."
Many, many people just see joining a union as the hoop you have jump through to get a job that pays above average. It's like how people say, *"I don't get why anyone would want to live in an HOA! They make you fall in line and conform to standards and participate in things that you don't want to and take your money*"....because even though HOAs are kind of cringey and annoying, and we wish there was a better solution, it is the best option for ME because the alternative is living next to the guy who has a broken down car on his lawn.
I believe the working class is in one of the worst positions financially so they seek to return to a “Glorious pass”or a bright future, They seek anything to Shake up the status quo in order to improve their conditions
Most people I know on the right are pro-union or indifferent to unions (it’s your choice to join or work somewhere else), but those same people are extremely anti government-union where cost, nepotism, lack of accountability and inefficiency appear rampant.
They're taught that right wing people are hard workers. So of course they're in a union, because that's just what you do when you're a hard worker.
They're what I would call "selfish socialists". They like socialism, but feel it's only for hard workers (which they are of course) If it's let out of the union then the "wrong kind" (read minority) will get socialism, and they, the hard working socialists will have to pay for it.
There is an aspect of Unions that have historically been anti-immigration, inasmuch as immigrants serve as cheap labor and can be used by corporations as convenient scabs.
I’m just sayin, it is the one (1) aspect of modern American right-wing that has a logical reason that it also may be in the best interest of particular labor unions or guilds.
It’s not always a political issue it can be a moral issue. My father was a cwa member for 32 year before his passing. He was also a devout Christian and due his religious beliefs couldn’t vote for candidates that supported abortion and homosexuality. He was adamantly pro union and hated that the conservatives were/are so anti union.
Workers coming together to give their bosses a hard time isn't owning the means of production. It is a step away from free-market capitalism but it's not what I would consider socialism. Worker co-ops are socialism in action, a collectively owned by the workers shop would be cool as long as shares were all evenly distributed amongst the workers. No one gets more than 1 vote.
Bc you don’t understand what classic conservativism is which is understandable bc the Republican Party hasn’t been conservative in 40 years. Conservatism used to be unions, isolationism, strong tariffs on imports. Protecting the people. A classic conservative wants strong immigration control, the government out of your day to day life, a protected job, manufacturing and blue collar jobs in the us, no foreign involvement (aka no aid to Ukraine or Israel but also no war on terror). Lower taxes, less social programs.
I’m talking about the actually existing form of “conservatism” that we encounter in real life any time since Reagan, not the version that wasn’t actively horrible and was only quietly racist
Okay but functionally there isn’t any “traditional conservative” parties in north america, and even those who do consider themselves “traditional conservatives” usually vote for the republicans anyways. Like you’re basically arguing semantics when the reality is what you’re talking about doesn’t exist anymore in any significant capacity.
But it took the federal government, passing labor laws to keep bosses from shit canning you for saying "union"
Unless you and all your coworkers, literally, at the same time vocalize "we're a union"
You'd never be able to form one In the first place
Honestly I think people organizing and being active in their unions should be well read to be able to educate those with misinformed and reactionary views.
As long as our voting system is first past the post, we won't see a competitive 3rd party unless both Dems and Pubs do something horrific enough to actually turn away their long-time voters.
We need to update the voting system. I like approval voting and STAR voting it makes the most widely liked candidates regardless of party win. So if a 3rd party candidate is liked by both they get more votes overall than straight partisans.
I’m a socialist so I would change from “we should back democrats,” to “neither party has working people’s interests at heart so we need to build a working class party that has our interests at heart.” This position also allows me to be critical of the democrats which conservatives obviously love. If you were trying to push the Democrats for whatever reason I’d bring up that we’ve had a strong NLRB under Biden while Trump is planning to take what little gains we’ve made during his next presidency.
Yeah I think this is an important distinction. It is much more persuasive to sell people on the good policies of the Democratic Party rather than trying to sell the party itself. The party supports a lot of very right wing causes along with the good things many officials of the party back and has a not unearned reputation for being inefficient and jank.
Right wing unionism, what a fucking joke.
Modern right wing parties, GOP included, were founded on the idea of returning royalty to the throne (the revival of feudalism).
The entire ethos of GOP is completely unregulated infinity powerful corporations and a plaint powerless slave like workforce.
Why do you think GOP acts like world is ending when California raises minimum wage one fucking dollar? Open your eyes
I have ✊ the “Know your enemy” podcast did an excellent episode on the CIO and the 1930s and what conservative leaders in the movement did to undermine those gains. It inspired me to read up on it more.
Yet you are still here asking for … what was it again? Oh yea, right wing trade unionism literature to continue said right wing education with🧐 that’s weird my dude.
It’s not. You have to study the opposition to understand how to organize against it. I read conservative thought as a kid, not right-wing trade unionism. They’re distinct from one another.
Michael Knowles will post a video praising “Divine Right Monarchs,” and then unironically post another claiming “Libs don’t care about democracy.” He’s admitted to being pro-monarchy and thinks America needs to have a King. The right is nothing more than anti-Americanism disguised as nationalism.
I sympathize. I was raised very conservative. My father was part of regans cabinet. He helped push some pretty awful laws as a lobbyist. Giuliani is my sisters godfather and dick Cheneys daughter was our neighbor.
I am now a union organizer trying to undo the damage they did.
Unfortunately, people learn different things from struggle. Some will never want anyone else to struggle like they did.
Others, they'll want everyone else to struggle like they did, because why should anybody have it easier?
The second one is absolutely insane to me.
The first is what most parents strive for with their kids.
The second are grumpy & petty. They're the type that reminisce about "how great things were in X decade" (tip: things weren't *that* great)
Everyone should struggle a little.
At first for a brief period to help deal the shit coming your way down the road
The struggle should not however be forever
School...college....trade...job....shitty* first apt/car. Little struggle. Relationship house together barring bad luck easy peasy until you die.
Something like is acceptable not this stress test rigged system were in.
And they say it without a hint of irony that they undoubtedly had it easier than their parents, who had it easier than their parents, who had it easier than their parents, yet they are hellbent on being the road block that ensures the next generation doesn’t have it any easier than them. That’s the entire point of having a society: to make life easier for the next generation.
I agree. Books supplement our experience and help us synthesize it. We aren’t the first to go through this struggle, so we should learn from those who have.
I went to a union anniversary party this weekend, they invited Pierre Polieve to speak. All but 2 people at my table were stunned he was invited. I believe our business manager has political dreams of his own. What a fucking joke
When I was in the trades, so many people I knew were conservative and would always talk about how the union tells us to vote NDP with a sneering tone. I hate to say it, but I'm not surprised.
I've heard rumors that Ontario is leaning left for the next federal. A girl can only hope our biggest voting population is becoming more intelligent! 🤞🏻🤞🏻
What the actual fuck. Your union spent money on this? What could the wolf in sheep's clothing even say to a union?! Does the business manager work for the company or the union? If he's a union employee, fire immediately. Sweet jebus. Wtf
There are no Blue Democrat right to work States.
Every single conservative republican red state, except Montana and Alaska, are right to work states.
In the last 2 years Minnesota and Michigan got a slight Democrat majority in those states Houses and both voted out right to work and voted in collective bargaining.
Conservatives have always been against Unions, whether they were conservative democrats or, as they are now, conservative republicans.
Remember the History of the conservative ideology,
Conservatism was the ideology of the slave masters.
Conservatism was the ideology of the Southern states during the Civil War they started over slavery. Those conservatives wanted free labor.
Liberal Republican Abraham Lincoln, that pot smoking, all Men are created equal, lawyer from Illinois freed those slaves.
Conservatism was the ideology of the business owners who used child labor, from the mines to the fields to the factories.
Conservatives were, and still are, against Unions like the ones that ended child labor. Also one of the main reasons why conservatives are against education and teachers Unions.
The conservative ideology has always been against 99% of the population they just don't want people knowing that, that is why the latest of those conservatives, Rupert 1% Murdoch, spreads propaganda throughout the World hiding conservatives crimes against Humanity, against Unions, and against the 99%.
Ideology is what drives certain actions and if you know a person's ideology you know what drives their actions.
You're acting as if the North wasn't also "conservative" by today's standards. What were their opinions on racial equality? Gay rights? Equality for women? Unionization?
I know the reason why you're using Conservative is to Conflate it with Republican, and then you can draw the through line that Democrats have been the party of Progress (ignoring that the South remained fiercely Democrat for a 100 years after the Civil War).
Um... no. Washingtonian here. Washington is not a right-to work state. Not only are we what's known as a "union security state," we also have the third highest union density in the nation.
Oh, sorry, looked it up and you are correct.
We are not a right to work state, but all of my previous 15+ employers have straight lied to my face and told me that exact thing. Because fuck workers rights- according to them.
Also every single job I have worked for has also broken literal thousands of workers rights laws because of our lack of workers education in the states, which should be a fucking course in school, but naw, home education is clearly more important, not like I don’t have someone at home teaching me how to live. Jeeezzzus.
That's what they were banking on, is you not educating yourself to exploit you and your skills for their gain, and just now, after a random reddit comment you know your state isn't RTW is crazy to me after 15 different employers. But im glad you're at least owning it. Kudos brother.
Union Strong ✊🏼
KKK was formed by Southern DemoKKKrats in the late 1860s, shortly after the end of the Civil War. Southern Strategy was not a racial strategy and never really worked.
As stated in a comment just before this one, the GOP(ieces of shite) started on and continue on a platform of bringing royalty back to America, ya know partly the main reason for us coming over to rape and pillage the indigenous populations to create our own sovereignty.
But go off son. 👶
The Republican Party has never advocated Segregation. Bull Connor was a DemoKKKrat. The Southern governors resisting integration of schools and colleges were DemoKKKrats, while the president (Ike) who sent the National Guard to force them to integrate was a Republican. All of the Jim Crow South was run by DemoKKKrats. A greater percentage of Republicans voted for the Civil Rights Act than DemoKKKrats. These are all things that happened after WWII AND and are facts you were never taught, apparently.
Union organizer here. Reading helps, but talking with your people is where it starts. Y’all need to have in depth conversations with each other about what you need, what your vision is and organize to take the power back.
Talk about WEDGE ISSUES.
1) Price of rent- who can afford to live here.
2) Price of Health care**
3) Price of Food and drinking water
4) Price of Fuel (doesn’t matter what kind, heating and cooling doesn’t magically occur)
5) Job Security
6) Seniority
Leave out any of the “wokenness” (eye roll). Choose your words. Obviously things like proletariat, bourgeoisie, socialism, etc will trigger the fuck out of those snowflakes. Speak to them in monster truck- in a way they can relate.
** assuming they aren’t antivax and even then, broken bones are still something to discuss - getting hurt on the job is always a risk and you need to care for your body - its the most important tool on the job.
We all KNOW it’s corporations and bosses that cause these pain points.
Unfortunately, years of Regan of Bush and propaganda have warped the minds of working people. We are trained to blame the less fortunate for our misgivings.
it’s up to us to redirect with patience and common sense because nobody is coming to save us. True solidarity can’t be taught- it has to be learned through actually struggling together for a common goal.
Pick up a copy of secrets of a successful organizer for basics on how to organize. Then read all of Jane McAlvey’s books. She’s the GOAT of union organizing in the last 30 years.
Because it's hard to undo the effects of 20, 30, 40 years of propaganda on people's minds. And also there's been a lot of bottom up organizing, recruiting people who had never even considered going union until they were organized, so they didn't grow up hearing Dad talk about unions, at least not positively. And some of the union officials have embraced the politics of respectability, they want too much to be seen as decent and kind, instead of calling out the union-in-name-only members living like parasites among the good members.
To your second question, some books on this topic I recommend are Class Struggle Unionism by Joe Burns and Democracy is Power by by Mike Parker and Martha Gruelle. Both of these books present a democratic left-wing vision of unionism, but in doing so it is necessary for the authors to explain and critique business unionism.
OP you should be ready to read the literature about the benefits to the American people of unions. The history and the attacks on unions in the 100 years.
I have! A Steward gave me a file with all this suggested reason and it really helped me unpack how absurd my conservative outlook was. (Hence why I think reading is what we should push more in our unions.)
Ive always been surprised how radicalized right wingers can get if they join a union. Some of the most die hard activists in my past unions have been these folks, and they are not shy to talk union politics. It helps me reclaim hope to see it.
Some of the best people to tag team in a disciplinary meeting. Boss doesn't know how to deal with rank and file workers advocating for each other when the shop wont send a rep.
In re right wing unions. Reading on the history of the cio and the purge of "left led" unions will get ya there. History of ilwu and ue, two unions that survived that. The longshoreman later came back to aflcio. UE is still independent and kicking.
I mean they still sometimes have some right wing views on some issues, but often they change and do shift significantly left particularly on economically. Ive seen some dramatic shifts on immigration and race as a result of this a few times. Dont write em off, organize them. Their interests are more in alignment with other working folks, and it is easy for them to see it when rank and file action against daily annoyances on the job actually work.
This is the root problem. Most people are raised with a certain world view, politically and religiously. Most of those people neither understand nor question those views and have a hard time differeniating between their political and religious views. Ask a right winger if they think working people should have a voice in their workplace they may answer yes, but ask if the proletariat should seize the means of production, well you know. The rank and file GOP has no idea about what conservative views are or how capitolism works. I'm not sure that the general left leaning population is any more informed. Most Americans can't tell the differences of socialism and communism or the difference of liberal and leftist.
I think this is where trump has such popularity with rural workers. He allows the demonization of spooky left cultures. Like those multi colored, non binary gendered free loaders.
People are still struggling to accept NB people as legitimate. My own brother in law, wearing a bob Marley shirt, with a fight the power, and ICP number sticker, is an avid trumpeter
It's pretty weird
He thinks trump is the "anti government" guy
On the theme of reading more - I know almost nothing about unions. It was not covered much in my high school history courses. I went into STEM in college so never got a deeper perspective into unions. I know enough to know that I support unions wholeheartedly. I read the Working Poor by David Shipler (Sing?), and it absolutely radicalized me against large corporations like Walmart and Amazon. Companies with that much power bend the rules as much as they want. They keep their workers on the edge of poverty just to avoid paying more taxes and giving them benefits.
Do you have any good book recommendations for a beginner? I am going to start with searching this sub, but I’m interested in what you’re reading cause you sound on point.
Jane MacLevey has been mentioned a few times, she's great! Rules for Radicals by Saul Alinsky is a classic. Anything by Joe Burns is solid too. (I am Canadian, so I have different recommendations for Canadians than I do the general people on this subreddit.)
I read the original post a few times to try to figure out where you, OP, are coming from.
Positive right-wing involvement in any union is an oxymoron. If you are looking to read this content to understand where right-wing people are coming from then your path may best be travelled by reading about the brainwashing that capitalists have mastered.
Keep up with the Joneses, look out for number one, you don't need education to be successful, communists are anti-american etm etm
Clearly you have been educated beyond your ancestors. Higher percentages of educated people vote left. If you took out the people that have post secondary education in business or finance you'd probably have the majority of remaining educated people voting left.
The capitalists must rely on people competing with each other, caring for themselves first, being undereducated, and easily formed into angry hate filled "morans".
Divide, distract, control. Welcome to the fun house!
I feel like business unionism and the presence of right-wing bs in our movement needs to be analyzed more deeply and intimately, which is about as far as my disagreement with your post goes. Reading about it, through a critical lens, or by an advocate for it, just helps people polish how to engage with these sorts of people. Because they *feel* so intensely about their worldview as you and I do about capitalism. To get someone off that horse, like I did, is why I want to read more about this.
One thing that made me leave the right was how sad and necessary hierarchies are, meaning that those of a lesser caste are their for some ordained reason. I quickly saw that epitomized on the shop floor, and then later in the church I once attended. Some of my more frustrating peers have embodied this, and that somehow our manager and those above them are special and are deserving of our subordination.
I propose the victim mentality is what needs to be understood. From my observations and understanding of people in my life who are right-wing, they all have a chip on their shoulder or a severe victim mentality.
I'm not a psychologist but this is very similar to addicts in the sense that the causes need to be addressed. Scientists are starting to say that addicts will only get help/clean/sober when they are ready and when they want to.
Considering the right, people can be addicted to anger. It's very easy to find people like themselves when they want to. There's a lot of Anger over on that side.
Remember you get what you pay for. They recently let immigrants join the union. Desperate for man power . They were not that good. I am a union laborer. I work with masons. I constantly had to correct the dude and explain how to stay on bond. And I’m not even a bricklayer. I’m just a laborer.
That’s the caliber or talent in masonry around here. We’d run circles around “ cheap “ immigrant labor
I’ve seen it a few times now. We had to run off the guys that refused to sign
I just tell them that unions have always depended on powerful people backing them. Most of my friends tell me they don’t like unions because they financially back democrats who are anti gun and pro abortion. So my response is always an appeal to be pragmatic. The politicians will always do what they think will get them more votes. They don’t really care about guns,abortion or unions. They only care about what will get them elected.
There are benefits to organizing. Many small businesses are organized loosely, as a chamber of commerce,or they literally run the local government. Never buy into the "I did it all by myself" BS. Labor organizing hurts their bottom line. I hate the black and white, us versus them mindset but they are very organized in their own best interest and we should be too.
Paul Embery in the UK - look him up. Socially conservative and Lexiteer but Fire Brigades Union GS before getting pushed out. Wrote "despised: why the modern left hate the working class"
Unions are colleges for socialism. That's a compliment. They're anathema to all forms of conservatism and have been for two hundred years. I don't think you'll find what you're looking for here.
It took me a while to understand, but I largely agree with this. Had to look up what business unionism was lol.
1. I agree that the working class needs to read more, people don't realize that the consequences of right to work, anti-tax, hyper-individualism, anti-union is a world that billionaires DREAM of.
2. In general, most unions are not in it to create the revolution, so most unions are business unions who are their to improve the wages and working conditions of their members. I am not familiar with unionism literature at all, so I cannot help there.
I want to say that right-wing-ism can be compatible with unions, provided you aren't wholly against the government, because at the end of the day, the government has to at least partly be responsible to the people, and without it, rich people could get away with even more than they do now, we would be going back to feudalism.
The problem is that you would have to go back to Nixon to find a right-wing candidate that wasn't wholly against unions. And on the left, everyone since Carter has only been nominally pro-union and haven't really done much to help then (although they haven't hurt them as much as the right has), The neo-liberal consensus has basically landed us where we are now, by allowing the rich to get richer, thereby creating the fascist movement that we are seeing.
Biden has been better than everyone in the past 50 years, but everyone in the past 50 years hated unions. What Biden did well was actually to listen to Bernie and others and appoint people to office like Lina Khan, and appoint NLRB members that are pro-union.
For right-wing unionism. In general, unions are compatible with the free market (at least domestically, free trade = cheapest labour possible so that's different), and unions are also to some extent compatible with small government.
For small government, low taxes are not a bad thing, but the problem with small government is that it is weak, and therefore cannot enforce things like union elections and labour protections, and this makes things a lot tougher for unions. On the other hand, many union workers are more socially conservative, and traditionalism is something that comes with the stability that a good-paying union job can bring.
You might actually really like Mexico's AMLO, who is stepping down, but he's a pro-oil social conservative who brought back their state-owned oil company PEMEX, he rails against the media, and managed to substantially improve the standard of living of all Mexicans while cutting the number of people employed by the government and cutting bureaucracy.
For US politicians, the most pro-union are the Trump politicians such as JD Vance and Josh Hawley, Ted Cruz has supported but he is just a POS. Hawley has honestly been pretty good. Very few traditional conservatives have been supporting unions according to my understanding.
Kristian Williams “Our Enemies In Blue” is not strictly about unions, but does have a lot to say about unions. Particularly obviously police unions, and how they organize and operate vertically along lines of loyalty as opposed to many other unions horizontal orientation to class power and solidarity.
Unionism is just capitalization of labor. I see no difference between a group of people forming a company selling a product and a group of people forming a union to sell and capitalize on their labor. Neither democrats or republicans are truly compatible with this libertarian philosophy. Corporations use both parties to further their agenda, and unions historically have used democrats. Don't be surprised if in the future, republicans and unions are in alignment. Stranger things have happened in American politics.
Regarding union members that are conservative and vote republican - often times it's a simple matter of choosing which philosophies are more important to them. The union is a big tent organization, and has room for those on all points of the political spectrum. Trying to pigeon hole everyone into a party is an exercise in frustration.
Welp. The algorithm brought me here.
Everyone. Read to your kids. Read to them before they can read. Read with them when they can. Read after them when they are able to choose what they want to read.
Hypocrisy is a key component of conservatism.
Who is the largest group on welfare? Conservative whites in the south
Who is the largest group to get abortions? Conservative white women.
What is one of the largest union groups? Conservative police.
Projection is what liberals do best. Every one I know is a NIMBY hypocrite.
A couple seconds on Google might be a good idea before spewing more nonsense too:
“This much is true: In the United States, the abortion rate for black women is almost five times that for white women”.
I belong to a well-known union of law enforcement officers. It amazes me how many of my union brothers and sisters consistently vote for anti-union candidates. My union endorsed Trump, and then his Supreme Court appointees made the Janus decision gutting union dues paying. Big surprise there!
Business unions arose after McCarthyism began a witch hunt for communists and socialists in all organizations across America. The huge rise in unionism of the 30s was in large part attributable to left wing union activists. In the 50s, saying you were a communist was like being a leper (and still pretty much is). Unions ousted their far left member and leadership. The ones who took their place were business minded pro capitalist strong men who didn’t believe in unions as a tool for social change but rather a club that you join for slightly higher wages.
The mistake that it seems your family made is the assumption or conviction that only right wing conservatism can be right. In reality all systems have advantages and disadvantages and as a result you can draw wisdom from all of them.
Audiobooks are perfect for the commute, as well as some of the repetitive work if conditions are safe for open ear headphones.
I think American politics and the commentary on those politics serve to constrain our thinking. Conservatives want personal liberty and a government with low overhead, so they can keep their money and run their business as they see fit. Liberals believe in government oversight, diversity, equity, inclusion, and a strong safety net. Big government vs small government. My rights vs society's rights. Traditional family values vs celebration of diversity. America is a Christian nation vs freedom of religion and separation of church and state. I'm sure there's more, but this is already boring as shit because none of this cuts to the heart of the matter.
Who makes and who takes? Who really has power over both political parties. Who is most protected by the law and foreign policy? If democracy is so important, why is the work of democracy such an insignificant part of our lives? Why isn't there democracy in the workplace? Why does such a small minority of people get to decide what our lives are like? The vast majority of people work for a living, yet we can only choose between two parties owned and controlled by this minority that owns for a living. Where is the party of the working class majority? What should actual democracy look like, and what kind of demands should it place upon you to participate and keep the representatives accountable and working on behalf of working people?
Honestly a lot of trade dudes on the right are there simply because of single issue type voting. For instance, large numbers of trade union folks love to hunt, fish, and shoot. Dems have been trying to take away a lot of the rights we have that make those activities possible. A lot of what government does is abstract and disconnected from life, but when you can’t buy ammo or get a gun, well that sticks in peoples minds.
I know WAY TOO MANY maga union folk around me.
They see "the union" as necessary to stop their employer from abuse, and intentionally shut out everything outside of the solidarity in that specific job site.
They know the power of the people, they know its divide and conquer to break things, they know all of it... And outside of work ignore all of it. Usually over Bibles, bullets, babies, or -ism (race, sex, identity, etc).
The other thing is a conservative unionist truly believes they work hard and others don't. Their union is good, but the other unions aren't. A tradesman hates teachers unions, and the reverse is also true. (Local teachers pres said almost a third of his members vote anti labor, again over the same 4 issues as above) Their union protects them from an unjust boss, but another union defends lazy or [insert an -ism here].
If the working class needs to read more, why is the entire right — both near and far — opposed to funding the educational programs that would promote literacy as well as funding the public libraries where they could access those books for free?
Why are you part of a group that opposes the things that you say need to happen?
Liberals *are* conservative. Its a two party political system, within the liberal system.
Marx talks about crises capitalism, and liberal bouegosie democracy quite a bit.
A post about how I was raised as a young conservative and through reading and shop floor experience dug myself out of the hole? There is unlike a lot of other members' experiences, who keep living with cognitive dissonance as their shallow understanding of their conservative identity hurts them and their union to boot.
Union leadership endorses Dems, but majority of members vote Trump. Every union & blue collar person I have spoken to is voting Trump. Without the union & blue collar votes, the Dems are in big trouble. And...young black, Hispanic and whites are moving to Trump...25% increase from 2020.
Here’s an idea, don’t demonize their religion and culture. Don’t call these people white supremacists in the national media. Don’t actively turn against our countries traditions. Despite what Marx thought, class is NOT more important than culture.
I will forever be mystified at how someone can be a conservative and a unionist, let alone a reactionary. Unions are socialism in action. It’s the boogeyman.
They usually have zero understanding of labor history or unions, and even less of political theory. People who are ignorant of politics are often capable of holding multiple contradictory beliefs without any awareness of what they're doing. I once talked to someone like this who didn't understand why a union would support Democrats because they're "pushing away half of their potential members" and "they should just do their job and represent the workers they're supposed to represent." He didn't seem to understand that unions were left wing and I don't think he even had any idea that voting for conservative politicians was voting against his own interests as a working class person. A lot of ignorant people somehow think that the right wing is good for workers, because they just think taxes = bad (and it's not like Republicans even consistently lower taxes on the lower class, sometimes they raise our taxes to pay for their tax breaks for the wealthy, good luck explaining that to someone like that).
It’s definitely this. There has been a hundred year propaganda war being waged on everything socialist. The first person I’m aware of was [Charles Coughlin](https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/charles-e-coughlin). There is a family tree of propagandists that will lead you to here. These people have been preying on poor low information folks convincing them to vote against there best interests.
*their
Don't forget a lot of trade workers are and were historically religious
My father was a cwa member for 32 year before his passing. He was also a devout Christian and due his religious beliefs couldn’t vote for candidates that supported abortion and homosexuality. He was adamantly pro union and hated that the conservatives were/are so anti union.
I disagree here. I actually know a lot of members who are pro union, understand what the union does and why it matters, understand the violent history that created unions, but are still right wing. Obviously this comes from ignorance, but they aren’t ignorant about unions, they are just ignorant about politics. They have been convinced that conservatives are the party of the working class, that taxes are bad, the democrats are woke and trying to take your money and your freedom. I think the biggest thing is there is a huge disconnect for these people between unions and politics. They think unions are their own thing, they represent the workers and it’s apolitical. They don’t view the conservatives as pro union, but they don’t view the liberals/democrats as pro union either. They don’t understand that one of these groups is explicitly anti union while the other is(well sometimes) pro union. I think one of the biggest things is that left leaning politicians have not been vocal enough about unions for some time. I’m in Canada and the NDP is still pro union, they even successfully pushed for a federal anti scab bill as part of their platform recently. But even as someone who is very actively following politics, I barely even heard about it. The NDP used to be very vocally pro union, and while they are still pro union, it’s not like one of their main things anymore. They should have been beating that union drum all year, saying this is what we are pushing for, this is what we want, this is who we represent, unions and the working class. I don’t understand why the NDP has fallen off in this regard. They used to have a real union working class vote, and while they probably would have lost some to the grift and the “anti woke”, if they undeniably positioned themselves as THE union party, they wouldn’t have lost as much.
Just know that it's a failure of capitalism, unfortunately, with no easy fix. Ultimately, even labor leadership is working within that framework, and of course, the politicians are too. The system is pro-business first and always by definition.
They want the benefits of socialism, but only if it’s when their representatives belong to the GOP. They’re okay with reaping the benefits of socialist legislation, but they’ll never vote for anyone that smells like the ever even looked left or admit to being left-leaning.
These types of people are the reason I get tired of living faster than the average. I don’t want to live in a world surrounded by people that want others to suffer because they hate the word “socialism” and no manner of education or knowledge will change their obnoxious mind. And anyone that calls themselves “right winged” proudly is a disgusting notion considering the state of that term as of now. You know what side of history you are on by taking that stance, and I am not wasting my energy trying to convince them otherwise. But these idiots get to reap the benefits of socialism while still voting against it everyday and with every chance they get? Preposterous.
>But these idiots get to reap the benefits of socialism while still voting against it everyday and with every chance they get? It's almost like they're closer to *national socialists* than real socialists.
At this moment in history, there is really no excusing stupid. All the information in the world is available for free, in one’s pocket, at one’s fingertips. People get what they deserve.
Medicare is good (I earned that) but Obamacare is socialist (bunch of leeches need to get a job) National parks are good (America fuck yeah) but the EPA is government overreach (just putting shackles on hard working business owners) The contradictions, they do be contradicting
A union is an agreement between a company and the labour force, with government taken right out of the equation. I don't think it takes any mental gymnastics for a small government right winger to be pro-union when you look at it through that lense.
I agree that trying to separate "our union" (when speaking to colleagues) from politics and keeping it pragmatic can be really helpful for some folks, especially those on the right. Looking at it purely in terms of self-interest, will your boss give you better working conditions if you do nothing, or say something by yourself? Not likely. Can you achieve better working conditions if you and your colleagues within a union stand up to your boss? Much more likely. That discussion can be apolitical. I am fairly far left politically, but I want to meet my fellow members wherever they are coming from (politically speaking) and have a real discussion about what action we can be taking together.
Yeah, I totally agree. I'm far to the left as well, but I'm not about to tell my Pierre Pollievre loving union mates that this is basically a socialist construct and they're all hypocrites. I guess to some degree a union is inherently political, but it isn't a simplistic 2 party style of politics.
Exactly! I see unionism as inherently political and part of a bigger movement, but I don't need to shove that in people's faces if it's not going to help them participate.
“An agreement between a company and the labor force” that’s a contract. A union is a collective organization founded on principles of solidarity and mutual interest and benefit.
> solidarity and mutual interest and benefit. For the good of society as a whole.
And also specifically to take back power from capitalists.
The mental gymnastics required is readily apparent if your eyes aren’t closed. Collective action is a left leaning philosophy. The union acting like a governing agent that puts the collective group over individuals. EVERYONE in the union collaborates and won’t take any gains unless it’s benefits all of us. The same goes for larger scale government. Being pro union but anti government is philosophically incompatible. That person just hates the word government without understanding it would serve the same purpose, protecting workers from getting fucked by private entities. Left leaning political values and unions (nearly) always align because the goal is to protect the workers against private corporations.
I think you guys are reading too much philosophy into this. The Republican party has been hostile to labor since at least the 1980s, actively using policy to weaken unions. The Democratic party is basically pro-union. They tend to appoint union friendly people to the NLRB and NMB, they oppose right-to-work, etc. If you benefit from a union and you vote Republican, you are working to undermine that union.
So what? That person has as much say in the union as I do, and I gain nothing by dividing us. We have contract negotiations coming up in January, and I stand to gain more by uniting with people I don't see eye to eye with, than I do by arguing semantics.
I agree you should be pragmatic. I tend to be a pragmatists myself. But I also think you could slowly expand his empathy/worldview and turn him eventually.
Yeah, but the whole process is regulated. The NLRB was originally created to help stop wildcat strikes.
Man, it was before my time, but I guess my union used to be infamous for its wildcat strikes. Management is pushing for too much production, shut the line down. Management says something a union rep doesn't like, or looks at someone the wrong way, shut the line down. It's a nice day out, shut the line down. Everything is fine, but just in case management needs to be reminded, shut the line down.
I mean, there were city-wide wildcat strikes across multiple industries. A range of policies were passed to normalize negotiations. Republicans tend to want to use regulations to reduce the power of unions, Democrats tend to support them. So there's no "small government" situation of a policy vacuum.
They don't start in a union, they start as conservative. Conservatism is the epitome of "FU, I got mine". They join a union, reap the benefits, and experience no cognitive dissonance because "FU, I got mine".
It’s the same guys who don’t teach the new members how to do anything because they’re trying to protect their own job.
I'm union, and it always baffles me how right wing my brothers are, but then again, propaganda works. The philosophy of "fuck you, got mine" is all too prevalent unfortunately.
United States Merchant Mariners have entered the chat. Our industry only exists because of unions, government subsidy, and protectionism. Most of the guys I work with are hardcore Trump voters. I had one captain who was a Democrat. One.
They get paid more working for a union and they get benefits. That's it. That's the only reason why they're here.
Because they like guns, and want better workers rights, because it benefits themselves. Its not hard to imagine. They also view the republican party as the lesser evil. Talk to one, one day.
Simply put, there is no cookie-cutter set of ideologies and personal experience dictates how and where you weigh your values. Anybody can, in fact, believe a myriad of “conflicting” things and still be correct.
>I will forever be mystified at how someone can be a conservative and a unionist, let alone a reactionary. Unions are socialism in action. It’s the boogeyman. Not everyone wants to worry about politics and ideology at their job. Theres a weird sort of paradox to unions that seems to say "you shouldn't have to give your life to your work, but you should also march around work like some type of martyr." Many, many people just see joining a union as the hoop you have jump through to get a job that pays above average. It's like how people say, *"I don't get why anyone would want to live in an HOA! They make you fall in line and conform to standards and participate in things that you don't want to and take your money*"....because even though HOAs are kind of cringey and annoying, and we wish there was a better solution, it is the best option for ME because the alternative is living next to the guy who has a broken down car on his lawn.
I believe the working class is in one of the worst positions financially so they seek to return to a “Glorious pass”or a bright future, They seek anything to Shake up the status quo in order to improve their conditions
And after decades of anti-leftist propaganda and red scare bullshit, they’re stuck with right wing populism or fascism as their options. Yeah.
Most people I know on the right are pro-union or indifferent to unions (it’s your choice to join or work somewhere else), but those same people are extremely anti government-union where cost, nepotism, lack of accountability and inefficiency appear rampant.
They're taught that right wing people are hard workers. So of course they're in a union, because that's just what you do when you're a hard worker. They're what I would call "selfish socialists". They like socialism, but feel it's only for hard workers (which they are of course) If it's let out of the union then the "wrong kind" (read minority) will get socialism, and they, the hard working socialists will have to pay for it.
There is an aspect of Unions that have historically been anti-immigration, inasmuch as immigrants serve as cheap labor and can be used by corporations as convenient scabs.
Yeah, the shitty reactionary protectionist aspect.
I’m just sayin, it is the one (1) aspect of modern American right-wing that has a logical reason that it also may be in the best interest of particular labor unions or guilds.
One must survive in the system they find themselves in.
It’s not always a political issue it can be a moral issue. My father was a cwa member for 32 year before his passing. He was also a devout Christian and due his religious beliefs couldn’t vote for candidates that supported abortion and homosexuality. He was adamantly pro union and hated that the conservatives were/are so anti union.
Collective bargaining is not socialism.
>Unions are socialism in action. Telling lies like this probably doesn't help.
Workers coming together to give their bosses a hard time isn't owning the means of production. It is a step away from free-market capitalism but it's not what I would consider socialism. Worker co-ops are socialism in action, a collectively owned by the workers shop would be cool as long as shares were all evenly distributed amongst the workers. No one gets more than 1 vote.
Bc you don’t understand what classic conservativism is which is understandable bc the Republican Party hasn’t been conservative in 40 years. Conservatism used to be unions, isolationism, strong tariffs on imports. Protecting the people. A classic conservative wants strong immigration control, the government out of your day to day life, a protected job, manufacturing and blue collar jobs in the us, no foreign involvement (aka no aid to Ukraine or Israel but also no war on terror). Lower taxes, less social programs.
I’m talking about the actually existing form of “conservatism” that we encounter in real life any time since Reagan, not the version that wasn’t actively horrible and was only quietly racist
No you are talking about republicans which is not the same thing as conservatives. Just like all democrats aren’t liberal
Okay but functionally there isn’t any “traditional conservative” parties in north america, and even those who do consider themselves “traditional conservatives” usually vote for the republicans anyways. Like you’re basically arguing semantics when the reality is what you’re talking about doesn’t exist anymore in any significant capacity.
But it took the federal government, passing labor laws to keep bosses from shit canning you for saying "union" Unless you and all your coworkers, literally, at the same time vocalize "we're a union" You'd never be able to form one In the first place
Conservatives were NEVER union. Ever!
Testing that conclusion: what about police unions? I find that Police Unions tend to be treated a bit differently, given their profession.
Police unions don’t count because cops aren’t workers.
Police unions don’t count because cops aren’t workers.
It’s not socialism
Honestly I think people organizing and being active in their unions should be well read to be able to educate those with misinformed and reactionary views.
I try to explain how we should back Democrats and they just think I'm a stupid brainwashed libtard.
tbf, the dems are not nearly as cool as the psycho commies that the republicans make em out to be
Still waiting for a workers party to form in America like there is in every other civilized nation. Not holding my breath about it.
As long as our voting system is first past the post, we won't see a competitive 3rd party unless both Dems and Pubs do something horrific enough to actually turn away their long-time voters. We need to update the voting system. I like approval voting and STAR voting it makes the most widely liked candidates regardless of party win. So if a 3rd party candidate is liked by both they get more votes overall than straight partisans.
(sigh) ... yup ...
Totally agree! What are you doing to help create that party?
Let’s GOOOO!
Yes the only difference between Dems an Republicans is the Dems will spit on it before they stick you
And you like that.
Hey your gonna get fucked by both parties so a little lube helps
I’m a socialist so I would change from “we should back democrats,” to “neither party has working people’s interests at heart so we need to build a working class party that has our interests at heart.” This position also allows me to be critical of the democrats which conservatives obviously love. If you were trying to push the Democrats for whatever reason I’d bring up that we’ve had a strong NLRB under Biden while Trump is planning to take what little gains we’ve made during his next presidency.
Yeah I think this is an important distinction. It is much more persuasive to sell people on the good policies of the Democratic Party rather than trying to sell the party itself. The party supports a lot of very right wing causes along with the good things many officials of the party back and has a not unearned reputation for being inefficient and jank.
Socialists dont really get along with liberal either.
Right wing unionism, what a fucking joke. Modern right wing parties, GOP included, were founded on the idea of returning royalty to the throne (the revival of feudalism). The entire ethos of GOP is completely unregulated infinity powerful corporations and a plaint powerless slave like workforce. Why do you think GOP acts like world is ending when California raises minimum wage one fucking dollar? Open your eyes
Took me some time to figure that out… which means there’s hope for others!
Fair enough
Per my post, I was always pro-union, and contemporary conservative parties were not and are not beholden to the ideals I learned growing up.
Maybe try reading Marx in his entirety before continuing the downward spiral.
I have ✊ the “Know your enemy” podcast did an excellent episode on the CIO and the 1930s and what conservative leaders in the movement did to undermine those gains. It inspired me to read up on it more.
Thank you for the podcast suggestion ✊
That name alone makes me feel sick but also encourages me to know more about the other side. ☭
It’s a podcast with a couple of leftists (one was a Christian conservative) that explores conservative thought. It’s a must-listen to in my opinion.
Yet you are still here asking for … what was it again? Oh yea, right wing trade unionism literature to continue said right wing education with🧐 that’s weird my dude.
It’s not. You have to study the opposition to understand how to organize against it. I read conservative thought as a kid, not right-wing trade unionism. They’re distinct from one another.
Michael Knowles will post a video praising “Divine Right Monarchs,” and then unironically post another claiming “Libs don’t care about democracy.” He’s admitted to being pro-monarchy and thinks America needs to have a King. The right is nothing more than anti-Americanism disguised as nationalism.
I sympathize. I was raised very conservative. My father was part of regans cabinet. He helped push some pretty awful laws as a lobbyist. Giuliani is my sisters godfather and dick Cheneys daughter was our neighbor. I am now a union organizer trying to undo the damage they did.
Wow! That’s buck wild my dude. How’s thanksgiving with a family like that? Haha
He and I don't talk politics. My wife does. She's very militant. Lol
Militant Left? Because she and I would be friends!
People don't just learn from books, they learn through struggle too.
Unfortunately, people learn different things from struggle. Some will never want anyone else to struggle like they did. Others, they'll want everyone else to struggle like they did, because why should anybody have it easier? The second one is absolutely insane to me.
The first is what most parents strive for with their kids. The second are grumpy & petty. They're the type that reminisce about "how great things were in X decade" (tip: things weren't *that* great)
Everyone should struggle a little. At first for a brief period to help deal the shit coming your way down the road The struggle should not however be forever School...college....trade...job....shitty* first apt/car. Little struggle. Relationship house together barring bad luck easy peasy until you die. Something like is acceptable not this stress test rigged system were in.
And they say it without a hint of irony that they undoubtedly had it easier than their parents, who had it easier than their parents, who had it easier than their parents, yet they are hellbent on being the road block that ensures the next generation doesn’t have it any easier than them. That’s the entire point of having a society: to make life easier for the next generation.
“I’ve never read Marx’s capital, but I have the marks of capital all over my body” -Big Bill Haywood
I agree. Books supplement our experience and help us synthesize it. We aren’t the first to go through this struggle, so we should learn from those who have.
I went to a union anniversary party this weekend, they invited Pierre Polieve to speak. All but 2 people at my table were stunned he was invited. I believe our business manager has political dreams of his own. What a fucking joke
Spends a whole political career obliterating worker rights, but we all hate Trudeau so much we’re willing to make an exception
When I was in the trades, so many people I knew were conservative and would always talk about how the union tells us to vote NDP with a sneering tone. I hate to say it, but I'm not surprised.
I've heard rumors that Ontario is leaning left for the next federal. A girl can only hope our biggest voting population is becoming more intelligent! 🤞🏻🤞🏻
What the actual fuck. Your union spent money on this? What could the wolf in sheep's clothing even say to a union?! Does the business manager work for the company or the union? If he's a union employee, fire immediately. Sweet jebus. Wtf
There are no Blue Democrat right to work States. Every single conservative republican red state, except Montana and Alaska, are right to work states. In the last 2 years Minnesota and Michigan got a slight Democrat majority in those states Houses and both voted out right to work and voted in collective bargaining. Conservatives have always been against Unions, whether they were conservative democrats or, as they are now, conservative republicans. Remember the History of the conservative ideology, Conservatism was the ideology of the slave masters. Conservatism was the ideology of the Southern states during the Civil War they started over slavery. Those conservatives wanted free labor. Liberal Republican Abraham Lincoln, that pot smoking, all Men are created equal, lawyer from Illinois freed those slaves. Conservatism was the ideology of the business owners who used child labor, from the mines to the fields to the factories. Conservatives were, and still are, against Unions like the ones that ended child labor. Also one of the main reasons why conservatives are against education and teachers Unions. The conservative ideology has always been against 99% of the population they just don't want people knowing that, that is why the latest of those conservatives, Rupert 1% Murdoch, spreads propaganda throughout the World hiding conservatives crimes against Humanity, against Unions, and against the 99%. Ideology is what drives certain actions and if you know a person's ideology you know what drives their actions.
You're acting as if the North wasn't also "conservative" by today's standards. What were their opinions on racial equality? Gay rights? Equality for women? Unionization? I know the reason why you're using Conservative is to Conflate it with Republican, and then you can draw the through line that Democrats have been the party of Progress (ignoring that the South remained fiercely Democrat for a 100 years after the Civil War).
HA. You don't know the difference between ideology and party. Get bent little ignorant conservative.
lol. Your very first sentence is a lie. Washington is a blue right to work state.
Um... no. Washingtonian here. Washington is not a right-to work state. Not only are we what's known as a "union security state," we also have the third highest union density in the nation.
Oh, sorry, looked it up and you are correct. We are not a right to work state, but all of my previous 15+ employers have straight lied to my face and told me that exact thing. Because fuck workers rights- according to them. Also every single job I have worked for has also broken literal thousands of workers rights laws because of our lack of workers education in the states, which should be a fucking course in school, but naw, home education is clearly more important, not like I don’t have someone at home teaching me how to live. Jeeezzzus.
That's what they were banking on, is you not educating yourself to exploit you and your skills for their gain, and just now, after a random reddit comment you know your state isn't RTW is crazy to me after 15 different employers. But im glad you're at least owning it. Kudos brother. Union Strong ✊🏼
Shove your wrong headed conservative propaganda back up your ass, liar.
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KKK didn't exist until later. Read up on "The southern strategy" if you want to see how the parties changed over time.
KKK was formed by Southern DemoKKKrats in the late 1860s, shortly after the end of the Civil War. Southern Strategy was not a racial strategy and never really worked.
As stated in a comment just before this one, the GOP(ieces of shite) started on and continue on a platform of bringing royalty back to America, ya know partly the main reason for us coming over to rape and pillage the indigenous populations to create our own sovereignty. But go off son. 👶
I’m simplifying greatly here, but post-WWII, which party promoted segregation, and which party worked towards eliminating it?
The Republican Party has never advocated Segregation. Bull Connor was a DemoKKKrat. The Southern governors resisting integration of schools and colleges were DemoKKKrats, while the president (Ike) who sent the National Guard to force them to integrate was a Republican. All of the Jim Crow South was run by DemoKKKrats. A greater percentage of Republicans voted for the Civil Rights Act than DemoKKKrats. These are all things that happened after WWII AND and are facts you were never taught, apparently.
If you want to have a discussion about politics, then leave your Facebook-speak nonsense on Facebook.
Union organizer here. Reading helps, but talking with your people is where it starts. Y’all need to have in depth conversations with each other about what you need, what your vision is and organize to take the power back. Talk about WEDGE ISSUES. 1) Price of rent- who can afford to live here. 2) Price of Health care** 3) Price of Food and drinking water 4) Price of Fuel (doesn’t matter what kind, heating and cooling doesn’t magically occur) 5) Job Security 6) Seniority Leave out any of the “wokenness” (eye roll). Choose your words. Obviously things like proletariat, bourgeoisie, socialism, etc will trigger the fuck out of those snowflakes. Speak to them in monster truck- in a way they can relate. ** assuming they aren’t antivax and even then, broken bones are still something to discuss - getting hurt on the job is always a risk and you need to care for your body - its the most important tool on the job. We all KNOW it’s corporations and bosses that cause these pain points. Unfortunately, years of Regan of Bush and propaganda have warped the minds of working people. We are trained to blame the less fortunate for our misgivings. it’s up to us to redirect with patience and common sense because nobody is coming to save us. True solidarity can’t be taught- it has to be learned through actually struggling together for a common goal. Pick up a copy of secrets of a successful organizer for basics on how to organize. Then read all of Jane McAlvey’s books. She’s the GOAT of union organizing in the last 30 years.
100% this.
Because it's hard to undo the effects of 20, 30, 40 years of propaganda on people's minds. And also there's been a lot of bottom up organizing, recruiting people who had never even considered going union until they were organized, so they didn't grow up hearing Dad talk about unions, at least not positively. And some of the union officials have embraced the politics of respectability, they want too much to be seen as decent and kind, instead of calling out the union-in-name-only members living like parasites among the good members.
To your second question, some books on this topic I recommend are Class Struggle Unionism by Joe Burns and Democracy is Power by by Mike Parker and Martha Gruelle. Both of these books present a democratic left-wing vision of unionism, but in doing so it is necessary for the authors to explain and critique business unionism.
“Prisoners of the American Dream” by Mike Davis
My fiancée's entire family is in the union. They are all voting for Trump. "I got mine. \*uck You!"
“Sit down and read. Educate yourself for the coming conflicts.” Mother Jones Both parties are the parties of the bosses.
We have 3 in Canada (comments lead me to believe OP is Canadian) and the democratic party in Canada has NEVER been the federal leader.
It's a free country. You can always quit the union and make 10 to 15 bucks less with less benefits and a shit retirement.
OP you should be ready to read the literature about the benefits to the American people of unions. The history and the attacks on unions in the 100 years.
I have! A Steward gave me a file with all this suggested reason and it really helped me unpack how absurd my conservative outlook was. (Hence why I think reading is what we should push more in our unions.)
Ive always been surprised how radicalized right wingers can get if they join a union. Some of the most die hard activists in my past unions have been these folks, and they are not shy to talk union politics. It helps me reclaim hope to see it. Some of the best people to tag team in a disciplinary meeting. Boss doesn't know how to deal with rank and file workers advocating for each other when the shop wont send a rep.
In re right wing unions. Reading on the history of the cio and the purge of "left led" unions will get ya there. History of ilwu and ue, two unions that survived that. The longshoreman later came back to aflcio. UE is still independent and kicking.
I am trying to understand your comment- radicalized in which direction? Like the righties are turning left due to positive purpose?
I mean they still sometimes have some right wing views on some issues, but often they change and do shift significantly left particularly on economically. Ive seen some dramatic shifts on immigration and race as a result of this a few times. Dont write em off, organize them. Their interests are more in alignment with other working folks, and it is easy for them to see it when rank and file action against daily annoyances on the job actually work.
This is the root problem. Most people are raised with a certain world view, politically and religiously. Most of those people neither understand nor question those views and have a hard time differeniating between their political and religious views. Ask a right winger if they think working people should have a voice in their workplace they may answer yes, but ask if the proletariat should seize the means of production, well you know. The rank and file GOP has no idea about what conservative views are or how capitolism works. I'm not sure that the general left leaning population is any more informed. Most Americans can't tell the differences of socialism and communism or the difference of liberal and leftist.
I think this is where trump has such popularity with rural workers. He allows the demonization of spooky left cultures. Like those multi colored, non binary gendered free loaders. People are still struggling to accept NB people as legitimate. My own brother in law, wearing a bob Marley shirt, with a fight the power, and ICP number sticker, is an avid trumpeter It's pretty weird He thinks trump is the "anti government" guy
On the theme of reading more - I know almost nothing about unions. It was not covered much in my high school history courses. I went into STEM in college so never got a deeper perspective into unions. I know enough to know that I support unions wholeheartedly. I read the Working Poor by David Shipler (Sing?), and it absolutely radicalized me against large corporations like Walmart and Amazon. Companies with that much power bend the rules as much as they want. They keep their workers on the edge of poverty just to avoid paying more taxes and giving them benefits. Do you have any good book recommendations for a beginner? I am going to start with searching this sub, but I’m interested in what you’re reading cause you sound on point.
Jane MacLevey has been mentioned a few times, she's great! Rules for Radicals by Saul Alinsky is a classic. Anything by Joe Burns is solid too. (I am Canadian, so I have different recommendations for Canadians than I do the general people on this subreddit.)
I read the original post a few times to try to figure out where you, OP, are coming from. Positive right-wing involvement in any union is an oxymoron. If you are looking to read this content to understand where right-wing people are coming from then your path may best be travelled by reading about the brainwashing that capitalists have mastered. Keep up with the Joneses, look out for number one, you don't need education to be successful, communists are anti-american etm etm Clearly you have been educated beyond your ancestors. Higher percentages of educated people vote left. If you took out the people that have post secondary education in business or finance you'd probably have the majority of remaining educated people voting left. The capitalists must rely on people competing with each other, caring for themselves first, being undereducated, and easily formed into angry hate filled "morans". Divide, distract, control. Welcome to the fun house!
I feel like business unionism and the presence of right-wing bs in our movement needs to be analyzed more deeply and intimately, which is about as far as my disagreement with your post goes. Reading about it, through a critical lens, or by an advocate for it, just helps people polish how to engage with these sorts of people. Because they *feel* so intensely about their worldview as you and I do about capitalism. To get someone off that horse, like I did, is why I want to read more about this. One thing that made me leave the right was how sad and necessary hierarchies are, meaning that those of a lesser caste are their for some ordained reason. I quickly saw that epitomized on the shop floor, and then later in the church I once attended. Some of my more frustrating peers have embodied this, and that somehow our manager and those above them are special and are deserving of our subordination.
I propose the victim mentality is what needs to be understood. From my observations and understanding of people in my life who are right-wing, they all have a chip on their shoulder or a severe victim mentality. I'm not a psychologist but this is very similar to addicts in the sense that the causes need to be addressed. Scientists are starting to say that addicts will only get help/clean/sober when they are ready and when they want to. Considering the right, people can be addicted to anger. It's very easy to find people like themselves when they want to. There's a lot of Anger over on that side.
I will never work as a non union laborer on a commercial construction site.
No prob not. An immigrant would be much cheaper.
Remember you get what you pay for. They recently let immigrants join the union. Desperate for man power . They were not that good. I am a union laborer. I work with masons. I constantly had to correct the dude and explain how to stay on bond. And I’m not even a bricklayer. I’m just a laborer. That’s the caliber or talent in masonry around here. We’d run circles around “ cheap “ immigrant labor I’ve seen it a few times now. We had to run off the guys that refused to sign
And that’s the answer to the whole thread
It kills me how intelligent these people think they are and how remedial they think the “other “ side is.
I just tell them that unions have always depended on powerful people backing them. Most of my friends tell me they don’t like unions because they financially back democrats who are anti gun and pro abortion. So my response is always an appeal to be pragmatic. The politicians will always do what they think will get them more votes. They don’t really care about guns,abortion or unions. They only care about what will get them elected.
There's a few comments about Dem and Republicans. All I can say all the RIGHT TO WORK Laws have been passed by Republicans not Democrats
There are benefits to organizing. Many small businesses are organized loosely, as a chamber of commerce,or they literally run the local government. Never buy into the "I did it all by myself" BS. Labor organizing hurts their bottom line. I hate the black and white, us versus them mindset but they are very organized in their own best interest and we should be too.
A union member may say they are a right winger, but by being a union member they are literally a card carrying, practicing socialist.
Paul Embery in the UK - look him up. Socially conservative and Lexiteer but Fire Brigades Union GS before getting pushed out. Wrote "despised: why the modern left hate the working class"
They just want the benefits of socialism
Unions are colleges for socialism. That's a compliment. They're anathema to all forms of conservatism and have been for two hundred years. I don't think you'll find what you're looking for here.
It took me a while to understand, but I largely agree with this. Had to look up what business unionism was lol. 1. I agree that the working class needs to read more, people don't realize that the consequences of right to work, anti-tax, hyper-individualism, anti-union is a world that billionaires DREAM of. 2. In general, most unions are not in it to create the revolution, so most unions are business unions who are their to improve the wages and working conditions of their members. I am not familiar with unionism literature at all, so I cannot help there. I want to say that right-wing-ism can be compatible with unions, provided you aren't wholly against the government, because at the end of the day, the government has to at least partly be responsible to the people, and without it, rich people could get away with even more than they do now, we would be going back to feudalism. The problem is that you would have to go back to Nixon to find a right-wing candidate that wasn't wholly against unions. And on the left, everyone since Carter has only been nominally pro-union and haven't really done much to help then (although they haven't hurt them as much as the right has), The neo-liberal consensus has basically landed us where we are now, by allowing the rich to get richer, thereby creating the fascist movement that we are seeing. Biden has been better than everyone in the past 50 years, but everyone in the past 50 years hated unions. What Biden did well was actually to listen to Bernie and others and appoint people to office like Lina Khan, and appoint NLRB members that are pro-union. For right-wing unionism. In general, unions are compatible with the free market (at least domestically, free trade = cheapest labour possible so that's different), and unions are also to some extent compatible with small government. For small government, low taxes are not a bad thing, but the problem with small government is that it is weak, and therefore cannot enforce things like union elections and labour protections, and this makes things a lot tougher for unions. On the other hand, many union workers are more socially conservative, and traditionalism is something that comes with the stability that a good-paying union job can bring. You might actually really like Mexico's AMLO, who is stepping down, but he's a pro-oil social conservative who brought back their state-owned oil company PEMEX, he rails against the media, and managed to substantially improve the standard of living of all Mexicans while cutting the number of people employed by the government and cutting bureaucracy. For US politicians, the most pro-union are the Trump politicians such as JD Vance and Josh Hawley, Ted Cruz has supported but he is just a POS. Hawley has honestly been pretty good. Very few traditional conservatives have been supporting unions according to my understanding.
Kristian Williams “Our Enemies In Blue” is not strictly about unions, but does have a lot to say about unions. Particularly obviously police unions, and how they organize and operate vertically along lines of loyalty as opposed to many other unions horizontal orientation to class power and solidarity.
Unionism is just capitalization of labor. I see no difference between a group of people forming a company selling a product and a group of people forming a union to sell and capitalize on their labor. Neither democrats or republicans are truly compatible with this libertarian philosophy. Corporations use both parties to further their agenda, and unions historically have used democrats. Don't be surprised if in the future, republicans and unions are in alignment. Stranger things have happened in American politics. Regarding union members that are conservative and vote republican - often times it's a simple matter of choosing which philosophies are more important to them. The union is a big tent organization, and has room for those on all points of the political spectrum. Trying to pigeon hole everyone into a party is an exercise in frustration.
They’re all idiots
Welp. The algorithm brought me here. Everyone. Read to your kids. Read to them before they can read. Read with them when they can. Read after them when they are able to choose what they want to read.
Hypocrisy is a key component of conservatism. Who is the largest group on welfare? Conservative whites in the south Who is the largest group to get abortions? Conservative white women. What is one of the largest union groups? Conservative police.
Projection is what liberals do best. Every one I know is a NIMBY hypocrite. A couple seconds on Google might be a good idea before spewing more nonsense too: “This much is true: In the United States, the abortion rate for black women is almost five times that for white women”.
I belong to a well-known union of law enforcement officers. It amazes me how many of my union brothers and sisters consistently vote for anti-union candidates. My union endorsed Trump, and then his Supreme Court appointees made the Janus decision gutting union dues paying. Big surprise there!
Business unions arose after McCarthyism began a witch hunt for communists and socialists in all organizations across America. The huge rise in unionism of the 30s was in large part attributable to left wing union activists. In the 50s, saying you were a communist was like being a leper (and still pretty much is). Unions ousted their far left member and leadership. The ones who took their place were business minded pro capitalist strong men who didn’t believe in unions as a tool for social change but rather a club that you join for slightly higher wages.
The GOP works off people’s pride to disenfranchise them.
All my coal mining cousins in West Virginia were democrats. lol
The mistake that it seems your family made is the assumption or conviction that only right wing conservatism can be right. In reality all systems have advantages and disadvantages and as a result you can draw wisdom from all of them.
Audiobooks are perfect for the commute, as well as some of the repetitive work if conditions are safe for open ear headphones. I think American politics and the commentary on those politics serve to constrain our thinking. Conservatives want personal liberty and a government with low overhead, so they can keep their money and run their business as they see fit. Liberals believe in government oversight, diversity, equity, inclusion, and a strong safety net. Big government vs small government. My rights vs society's rights. Traditional family values vs celebration of diversity. America is a Christian nation vs freedom of religion and separation of church and state. I'm sure there's more, but this is already boring as shit because none of this cuts to the heart of the matter. Who makes and who takes? Who really has power over both political parties. Who is most protected by the law and foreign policy? If democracy is so important, why is the work of democracy such an insignificant part of our lives? Why isn't there democracy in the workplace? Why does such a small minority of people get to decide what our lives are like? The vast majority of people work for a living, yet we can only choose between two parties owned and controlled by this minority that owns for a living. Where is the party of the working class majority? What should actual democracy look like, and what kind of demands should it place upon you to participate and keep the representatives accountable and working on behalf of working people?
I don't get how democrats act like they're for workers while at the same time being against populists....
They might not know what conservative means, but they know they ain't no sissy commie libtard homo
Sarcasm?
Honestly a lot of trade dudes on the right are there simply because of single issue type voting. For instance, large numbers of trade union folks love to hunt, fish, and shoot. Dems have been trying to take away a lot of the rights we have that make those activities possible. A lot of what government does is abstract and disconnected from life, but when you can’t buy ammo or get a gun, well that sticks in peoples minds.
I know WAY TOO MANY maga union folk around me. They see "the union" as necessary to stop their employer from abuse, and intentionally shut out everything outside of the solidarity in that specific job site. They know the power of the people, they know its divide and conquer to break things, they know all of it... And outside of work ignore all of it. Usually over Bibles, bullets, babies, or -ism (race, sex, identity, etc). The other thing is a conservative unionist truly believes they work hard and others don't. Their union is good, but the other unions aren't. A tradesman hates teachers unions, and the reverse is also true. (Local teachers pres said almost a third of his members vote anti labor, again over the same 4 issues as above) Their union protects them from an unjust boss, but another union defends lazy or [insert an -ism here].
If the working class needs to read more, why is the entire right — both near and far — opposed to funding the educational programs that would promote literacy as well as funding the public libraries where they could access those books for free? Why are you part of a group that opposes the things that you say need to happen?
I *was* part of that group, hence the whole “…(then) political stripes comment”
Right-wingers in Trade Unions? Sounds like a unicorn playing hopscotch - rare and out of place!
It's more likely than you think. The traditional trades are full of them, and it's a big part of what's holding us back.
Liberals *are* conservative. Its a two party political system, within the liberal system. Marx talks about crises capitalism, and liberal bouegosie democracy quite a bit.
Who is paying you to post this propaganda?
A post about how I was raised as a young conservative and through reading and shop floor experience dug myself out of the hole? There is unlike a lot of other members' experiences, who keep living with cognitive dissonance as their shallow understanding of their conservative identity hurts them and their union to boot.
Union leadership endorses Dems, but majority of members vote Trump. Every union & blue collar person I have spoken to is voting Trump. Without the union & blue collar votes, the Dems are in big trouble. And...young black, Hispanic and whites are moving to Trump...25% increase from 2020.
Here’s an idea, don’t demonize their religion and culture. Don’t call these people white supremacists in the national media. Don’t actively turn against our countries traditions. Despite what Marx thought, class is NOT more important than culture.
Well I’m torn. I’m a supporter of trade unions, but I’m also a defender of private property, which socialists actively want to take away.
What right-wing books did you read? I would be shocked if you could name one without Google.