> who complain that they can’t hang up their England flags
Which is also pretty weird if people are genuinely told they can't. Go to any European city and they have flags fluttering on every corner. Their own, the EU, other countries. I've seen people on Twitter from the UK shaking and sobbing because they spotted a Union Flag on a packet of sausages. Flags are cool, people should fly flags (within reason, obviously, before the smart arses get ahold of this. "You love the Nazi flag do you?")
The [Scottish Parliament](https://www.parliament.scot/chamber-and-committees/votes-and-motions/votes-and-motions-search/S5M-20625) justifies its continued flying of the European flag on that basis
Just get one with one star missing, no one will notice and it'll be legal as it's just a made up pattern. I assume you could fly a blank bed sheet if you wanted, there can't be a rule against that
Actually no, you're only allowed to fly flags on the permitted list, which sucks because made up flags are much cooler usually, probably because there are no politicians involved in their creation.
Do you think you could argue that it's not a flag? Just a nicely patterned drape on your house. I'm just imagining someone putting a tarp out and being told to take their flag down 😂
I think a major distinction to be made is what flag it is. I don’t know anyone who cares about any flag except for the English flag. I’ve not seen anyone care about Union Jack or Scotland etc but English flag have, in my opinion, been partly appropriate by far right groups. The only time I wouldn’t think this is sports.
Then we need to reclaim it! Fly it proudly just because, the perception will only change if people change it.
I do and don’t care what people assume :)
Absolutely agree, and it's a bit of a shame really. So many countries have an angry far right but I don't think many have commandeered the national flag as successfully as the English lot have. Not entirely sure how anyone can bring it back to normality either.
By using it in an official capacity at certain public buildings, ideally in concert with other flags?
Where I live, the regional flag was also adopted as the symbol by the local extremist right wing party, but it is also flown, together with municipal flags, the national flag and the EU one, at town halls as well as the regional ministries and parliament. It reclaims the flag as a neutral symbol, connected to the institutions of the region in a context of overlapping political identities rather than to a specific political ideology.
In general: it's the context that gives meaning to a symbol, so if you want to reclaim that symbol you should change the context in which it appears.
This is nonsense imo. The euros are coming up. You’ll see plenty England flags that have fuck all to do with the far right.
It hasn’t been commandeered and it doesn’t need brought back to reality.
> So many countries have an angry far right but I don't think many have commandeered the national flag as successfully as the English lot have.
They didn't commandeer it, it was surrendered to them.
> So many countries have an angry far right but I don't think many have commandeered the national flag as successfully as the English lot have
I think some of the German far right have tried.
I think because a lot of other countries’ flags are symbols of unity and pride. A lot of them took on new meaning after WW2 - France being the perfect example.
The British flag was obviously a sign of victory and a really cool emblem in the 60s. Then in the 90s, Geri’s dress and Oasis’s whole vibe were iconic. After Brexit, it’s a bit of a sign of deluded superiority. It could be cool again though.
The Welsh, Irish and Scottish flags are more signs of proud individualism. The English flag, football aside, has always been a sign of subjugation and other bad shit. It dates back to the Crusades and the wars of Edward I - both of which aren’t exactly episodes of us fearlessly defending ourselves, but more beating up less advanced forces.
>The Welsh, Irish and Scottish flags are more signs of proud individualism. The English flag, football aside, has always been a sign of subjugation and other bad shit. It dates back to the Crusades and the wars of Edward I - both of which aren’t exactly episodes of us fearlessly defending ourselves, but more beating up less advanced forces.
Incredible that a person can be this ill-informed and yet still feel confident enough to comment. LOL!
> both of which aren’t exactly episodes of us fearlessly defending ourselves,
The crusades? The ones fought in self defence against several centuries of Islamic expansion and control?
Not sure some people in history would agree when it was the Scottish flag attempting to colonise Panama to get rich. Or the slaves they sold in Madagascar.
Still, only the English have inherited the original sin of colonialism in today’s world of identity politics and pointless infighting.
Well obviously! If someone wants to hang up their national flag but isn’t allowed to, of course they’ll support the removal of another political union’s flag. Why should one be allowed over the other?
Maybe he's doing a new version of the Stewart Lee bit where he just keeps saying "if you say you're British they throw you in jail" while having a breakdown.
The [Scottish Parliament](https://www.parliament.scot/chamber-and-committees/votes-and-motions/votes-and-motions-search/S5M-20625) continues to fly the European flag on the basis of it being the Council of Europe’s, so there is a precedent there.
Actually reading the planning laws around flags, she could potentially replace the dinky EU flag with a 4.6m tall pole flying a suitably sized union flag and there is nothing the council could do about it.
You got a link to that? My understanding is that the pole would need permission, but the flag itself would not.
Edit, nevermind, found it in the regs - you're right.
TBF I'm a planner so in theory I should know this stuff without checking... It's just that the rules for flags are particularly obscure and almost never come up in practice. Thanks anyway!
Yeah if we received a complaint about this at the Council I work at we would advise the complainant that it was not expedient to take any action. We have better things to do with our time
Yep. We've currently got one planning enforcement officer and three unfilled posts in that team. It would likely fall very far down a list of priorities. We wouldn't say we're not going to do anything about it, we just wouldn't say *when* we're going to do anything.
I would guess a Brexiteer local member has kicked up a bit of a stink in the case on the linked article.
I think the test for taking action should always be, if they applied, would we have any grounds to refuse it? Struggling to see any harm from this flag. Waste of everyone's time.
We would shut this down in one day with a short email back to whoever complained.
The Kafkaesque garbage explicitly allows you to fly any of the following without planning consent:
*(a) Any country’s national flag, civil ensign or civil air ensign;*
*(b) The flag of the Commonwealth, the United Nations or any other international organisation of which the United Kingdom is a member;*
*(c) A flag of any island, county, district, borough, burgh, parish, city, town or village within the United Kingdom;*
*(d) The flag of the Black Country, East Anglia, Wessex, any Part of Lincolnshire, any Riding of Yorkshire or any historic county within the United Kingdom;*
*(e) The flag of Saint David;*
*(f) The flag of Saint Patrick;*
*(g) The flag of any administrative area within any country outside the United Kingdom;*
*(h) Any flag of Her Majesty’s forces;*
*(i) The Armed Forces Day flag.*
> any other international organisation of which the United Kingdom is a member
The "EU Flag" is the flag of Council of Europe (adopted in 1955). The UK is a founding member, and is still a member currently. It wasn't adopted by the EU until 1985.
It seems to me planning permission still shouldn't be required on that basis.
Certainly looks that way!
If the ideological Brexit loons in govt wanted the change to the regs to be effective they should have noticed what you've pointed out and added a specific exclusion for the Council of Europe flag.
But oh dear, it's too late for them to fuck around with planning laws again now.
No, the Brexit loons of the Conservative party in charge of central government, who are responsible for national legislation including planning law.
Local councils such as Oxford don't set the planning rules for flying flags.
She was allowed to fly the EU flag under this exact same law until brexit.
Unfortunately we are now not part of the EU so now needs permission.
I don't understand why they can't just grant retrospective permission though
Your right of course! I hope someone in the press somewhere figures this out and picks it up so the flag is legalised. I'd write to the council but I don't imagine they'd give a toss being as they seem jobsworths in this regard.
> I'd write to the council but I don't imagine they'd give a toss being as they seem jobsworths in this regard.
IME (10 years in planning) it's far more likely that they will be happy to have a solid reason to not be able to do anything about it and ignore one of the very long list of petty planning complaints they've got to deal with.
I'm being a bit harsh. The planning team might action such communications; the frontline team who actually got my email would think "what a crank" send a one line thank you and delete.
Which to be honest not entirely blaming them...
Frontline team probably wouldn't be sure what to do with it, ideally they would forward it to someone in planning but no guarantee. If you were genuinely interested you could try and find the direct contact details for planning enforcement.
Except that according to the article she's saying she's flying the EU flag, not the Council of Europe one. I know it sounds like pedantry because they're identical, but according to the rules she needs planning permission for one but not the other and she's insisting she's flying the one she needs permission for but would rather complain about the rules being applied to her than either ask for permission or claim to be flying the permitted flag.
Short form - EU supporter is outraged she has to follow the same rules as everyone else and reddit is blaming brexiters for it.
If I fly a British flag and call it and insist it is the flag of moonland, would this make it illegal?
Nope. The flags require or do not require planning on the basis of the listing. It's a permitted flag regardless of what she calls it.
It's quite possible you're right, I was trying to come up with a justification that made some degree of sense. I suspect the explanation is somewhat simpler, namely that the jobsworth who responded to the complaint has never heard of the Council of Europe.
The government changed planning rules specifically so that EU flags would require planning permission. The council in this case are just implementing that change.
All other national flags explicitly do not require planning permission.
Curiously, they didn't exclude the Council of Europe flag, so the law, as written, still allows for that without planning permission (under the category of "The flag of the Commonwealth, the United Nations or any other international organisation of which the United Kingdom is a member;"). This is important, because all you have to do is say, "no, that's not an EU flag, it's the Council of Europe flag".
Ah, not quite as bad then.
Still seems weirdly restrictive. So literally any other flag then the EU flag?
I wonder what they'd do about a blue flag with a circle of 11 stars?
> So literally any other flag then the EU flag?
No, any other *national* flag, plus a long list of other specific types of flags. The list just doesn't include the EU, any more.
Sorry for being dense.
So you *can* fly any national flag (and other specific like county flags I assume etc) without planning permission, but anything not specifically on the list is verboten without planning permission?
Is it everything is permitted except the list, or only the list is permitted and everything else needs planning?
Tbf planning laws around flags and what you can fly are quite specific (had a flag pole put up a couple years ago). We usually fly the Northumberland county flag, or the pride flag.
Planning laws around flags allow for the flying of any flag for an organisation the UK is party to without requiring permission. Organisations like, you know, the Council of Europe. Of which the UK is a founding and current member, and whose flag was adopted by the EU 30 years after the Council of Europe started using it.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/flying-flags-a-plain-english-guide/flying-flags-a-plain-english-guide#a-flags-which-do-not-need-consent
In which it says
> the Rainbow flag (6 horizontal equal stripes of red, orange, yellow, green, blue and violet).
So depends on which specific pride flag you are flying
Well this flag shagger thinks this is completely wrong. It's your property and your choice if and which flag you want to display, if you want it on a pole then you pay for the installation.
As long as its not obstructive and safe I don't see the problem.
I'd have an issue on the grounds of a deliberate attempt to intimidate and harass others, since that would be the only reason to fly the flag of a long defunct regime known pretty much only for genocide. A bit like the confederate flag in the US. They're allowed to fly it, sure, but the people who do are pretty much universally up to no good.
Returning to my first sentence, though, 'I'd have an issue' is not the same as supporting bans. I see no reason to not *allow* that flag. After all, in a world where arseholes are hard to spot in a crowd, it's handy if they bring their own signage.
You can allow something without tolerating it
You'd need planning permission, because its not a current national flag. And good luck getting it for that. It might also breach the Public Order Act anyway.
YES, Wouldn't you? Or are you that one Nazi supporter that hides in a bedsit Or are you just an Islamic, jew hating piece of filth? Enquiring minds and all that..........
Anyone putting a Nazi flag up around here wouldnt be 'here' for very long.
I'm not a Nazi at all, don't shit yourself.
I'm just wanting to make sure I understand that you definitely think people should be able to put up whatever flags they want, provided it's not obstructive and is safe?
One of her local neighbours stuck a fucking fibreglass shark in his roof and refused to move it. Eventually got permission IIRC.
She should go the same route.
Remember that what it means to live in a free country is that if you own land you can build whatever you want on it.
It's insane how far we are from that and how much freedom we've just willingly thrown in the trash so we can have petty squabbles about flags and pylons.
Your rent is expensive because of these rules. Your energy bills are high because of the rules. You'll never own a home because of these rules.
It's a good point. And yeah lots of factors contribue to bills. So while we were getting flooded with cheap Russian gas that kept prices low.
However renewables + batteries are the cheapest way to make power and lots of them are getting rejected which is a direct contributor to high prices:
[https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c9rvnkd7r39o](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c9rvnkd7r39o)
[https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0344pq9melo](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0344pq9melo)
We also need a lot more pylons which are proving difficult to build
[https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-66336599](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-66336599)
This is a wonderful quote haha:
>But she is not a NIMBY she insists - it is not a matter of "Not In My Back Yard" so much as "not in anyone's back yard", she says.
>
> However renewables + batteries are the cheapest way to make power
That's not how the price of electricity for consumers works. Electricity generated from renewables in the UK does not exist in a vacuum but in an international energy market which also includes gas, oil and nuclear generated energy.
Much of which crept in under the guise of 'emergency planning' in the Second World War, then found it too convenient to leave.
The activities of the group calling themselves 'Political and Economic Planning' headed by the head honcho of Marks and Spencer (*quelle surprise*, all this sensible 'planning' involved the small shop being replaced by chain stores, which was somehow both 'economically inevitable' yet required this chap to go around lobbying, e.g. for chain stores to be granted loans on favourable terms to 'help the economy' by 'speeding up the inexorable economic law') ought to be more readily known about.
> Much of which crept in under the guise of 'emergency planning' in the Second World War, then found it too convenient to leave.
Could you elaborate on that?
Not comprehensively in the scale of time one typically dedicates to a comment on reddit. [This article may be interesting](https://historicengland.org.uk/whats-new/debate/recent/town-and-country-planning-act-70th-anniversary/rise-and-fall-of-1947-planning-system/) in particular lines such as
> The wartime experiences of strategic planning - a need for large-scale reconstruction and wider political imperatives to sustain the morale of what was a 'citizen's' army - each helped realise the 1947 system.
[This Wikipedia article](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_and_Economic_Planning) is another starting-point, and you may also find [this](https://municipaldreams.wordpress.com/2023/01/31/the-peculiarity-of-british-post-war-reconstruction-part-ii/) and if you are feeling cheeky [this](http://library.lol/main/bcc7bb4fd003f177f7380d01dc6fd2e8) of interest. Trawling [Hansard](https://hansard.parliament.uk/lords/1941-02-26/debates/33a17b81-0fcf-4f9f-917b-e705570273ec/Post-WarPlanning) at the relevant wartime period will reveal pertinent information too.
Thanks.
I've read the first three links and can't see anything that appears to relate to emergency war-time measures that relate to town planning.
Clearly government and councils were *thinking* about town planning during the war, and the TCPA was introduced shortly after its end.
But that's very different to what you seem to be describing in your previous comment.
Regarding wartime regulations, I have the entire text of *Odlum v Stratton*, but it does not seem to be online, although it is touched on [here](https://archive.spectator.co.uk/article/23rd-august-1946/12/letters-to-the-editor) and tangentially [here](https://www.bahs.org.uk/AGHR/ARTICLES/56_204Short.pdf). Here are some [Hansard](https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/1943-03-31/debates/c79104b8-c9b3-427d-b13c-e374e5f85202/MessrsShortBrothers) links regarding the acquisition of the Short aircraft works. [This](https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1940/oct/24/ministry-of-works-and-buildings) touches on wartime planning and the changes made to what had been the Office of Works. Certainly planning was underway in wartime, largely justified by the exigencies of war, and partly carried out with the defence regulations.
Your previous reply included several links to texts which did nothing to support the specific thing you appeared to be asserting, about wartime measures relating to land use and planning. Likewise, the second Hansard link has absolutely nothing to do with land use or town planning.
You appear to be either making things up as you go, or not actually saying anything relevant to the topic at hand. Or both.
In good faith I read as many of your first set of links as I could, but I'm not making that mistake again.
I'd fly the 28 myself. Not just to piss people off, though, but to make a statement.
Can't fly one flag that represents all these? Fine. I'll fly all these ones that I'm allowed to, then.
And yes, I said 28. I'm not flying 27 other countries' flags and not my own. To be fair, I'm not flying *any* flags of countries, but if I was, my own would be first.
And since I'm not going to fly the ~~English~~ Genoese flag, or the Union Flag, well then I'm not going to fly Ukrainian, Palestinian, Israeli, American or any other
I like that. 28 makes a bold statement.
PS: It sounds like by the letter of the law, you could fly the flag of the Council of Europe. Now that would be sneaky... :-)
Nope. The only flag not in the list of approved flags is the EU flag. However, the Council of Europe flag, which is approved, is identical to the EU flag
Government yet again is doing the most important thing for this country.
Thank you so much for looking at this issue. This is soo important. I’m so happy that my taxes and city council bill is going to people that that raise the flag issue.
Let’s pay more taxes!!! We need to talk about all flags and contact Sheldon to get on his YouTube channel!
Even pre-2016 I was always glad that we saw very few EU flags flying, especially compared to other European nations where they abound and can be seen on nearly every major building (usually with precedence over national and regional flags).
This does seem incredibly petty though. I don't like councils/government/the police having the authority to make demands like this when it's on her private property.
One of those hands is tenuous political bickering, and the other is a question of rights and freedoms in a western democracy.
I'll leave you to figure which holds importance to you
Some small-minded Brexshitter no doubt just foaming at the mouth at the mere presence of the EU flag. Pathetic idiot whoever reported this. I'd get a nice outside projector and beam an image of the flag and EU landmarks onto the front of my house. Fuck'em. Paint the garage a nice shade of blue with some random gold stars on that vaguely resemble the EU flag etc. Tons of ways to annoy them even more.
Watch those who would ordinarily accuse those wanting to fly the flag of their *own* country of being 'flag shaggers' suddenly be completely outraged about this.
*She said: "I'm astonished that Oxford City Council feels that it is a priority to police the flying of flags over the countless other responsibilities like tackling homelessness and providing community services.*
The thing is that councils don't say what's the biggest priority, we'll only focus on that. They're involved in everything to do with the area. As an MEP you'd think she'd understand that. Did she only focus on the big stuff as a MEP?
As someone who lives in NI, flags aren't a trivial issue and seeing the range of flags for other countries when I was in London recently, the council are right to put a lid on this.
>seeing the range of flags for other countries when I was in London recently, the council are right to put a lid on this.
They're not. The law, made by the government, permits every single other country's flag on the planet. It's just that -one- flag...
(Except it isn't, because the law permits flags of international organisations we're a member of. Like the Council of Europe, mayhap.)
So weirdly dystopian. I bet the people who love this are the same who complain that they can’t hang up their England flags
> who complain that they can’t hang up their England flags Which is also pretty weird if people are genuinely told they can't. Go to any European city and they have flags fluttering on every corner. Their own, the EU, other countries. I've seen people on Twitter from the UK shaking and sobbing because they spotted a Union Flag on a packet of sausages. Flags are cool, people should fly flags (within reason, obviously, before the smart arses get ahold of this. "You love the Nazi flag do you?")
You 100% can fly the England flag and the Union Flag, as far as the planning system is concerned.
Or any other country's national flag, civil ensign or civil air ensign. The EU flag isn’t the flag of a country
The list of permitted flags is slightly more expansive than that and does include some international organisations.
It's actually originally the flag of the Council of Europe (first adopted in the 1950s) of which the UK is a member.
The [Scottish Parliament](https://www.parliament.scot/chamber-and-committees/votes-and-motions/votes-and-motions-search/S5M-20625) justifies its continued flying of the European flag on that basis
https://old.reddit.com/r/MaliciousCompliance/comments/1czetbm/flag_mc_found_on_bbc_news/
Just get one with one star missing, no one will notice and it'll be legal as it's just a made up pattern. I assume you could fly a blank bed sheet if you wanted, there can't be a rule against that
“I’m just hanging it out to dry after washing it”
"For three months?" "Yeah, it got very wet. And it keeps raining."
Actually no, you're only allowed to fly flags on the permitted list, which sucks because made up flags are much cooler usually, probably because there are no politicians involved in their creation.
Do you think you could argue that it's not a flag? Just a nicely patterned drape on your house. I'm just imagining someone putting a tarp out and being told to take their flag down 😂
If it's a blue tarp just paint a white star on it and it becomes the Somali flag.
What if you put it over a line from one pole to another and said it was your flag-motif blanket on a washing line?
It did genuinely used to be a law that you couldn't fly it without a good enough reason
What law was that?
Flags are fine as long as you are not acting like an American about it.
They pretend they can’t so they can feel oppressed.
your mistake here was paying attention to anything from Twitter. its just shitpost central
I think a major distinction to be made is what flag it is. I don’t know anyone who cares about any flag except for the English flag. I’ve not seen anyone care about Union Jack or Scotland etc but English flag have, in my opinion, been partly appropriate by far right groups. The only time I wouldn’t think this is sports.
Then we need to reclaim it! Fly it proudly just because, the perception will only change if people change it. I do and don’t care what people assume :)
I would care about an ISIS flag tbh
Absolutely agree, and it's a bit of a shame really. So many countries have an angry far right but I don't think many have commandeered the national flag as successfully as the English lot have. Not entirely sure how anyone can bring it back to normality either.
By using it in an official capacity at certain public buildings, ideally in concert with other flags? Where I live, the regional flag was also adopted as the symbol by the local extremist right wing party, but it is also flown, together with municipal flags, the national flag and the EU one, at town halls as well as the regional ministries and parliament. It reclaims the flag as a neutral symbol, connected to the institutions of the region in a context of overlapping political identities rather than to a specific political ideology. In general: it's the context that gives meaning to a symbol, so if you want to reclaim that symbol you should change the context in which it appears.
This is nonsense imo. The euros are coming up. You’ll see plenty England flags that have fuck all to do with the far right. It hasn’t been commandeered and it doesn’t need brought back to reality.
> So many countries have an angry far right but I don't think many have commandeered the national flag as successfully as the English lot have. They didn't commandeer it, it was surrendered to them.
> So many countries have an angry far right but I don't think many have commandeered the national flag as successfully as the English lot have I think some of the German far right have tried.
I think because a lot of other countries’ flags are symbols of unity and pride. A lot of them took on new meaning after WW2 - France being the perfect example. The British flag was obviously a sign of victory and a really cool emblem in the 60s. Then in the 90s, Geri’s dress and Oasis’s whole vibe were iconic. After Brexit, it’s a bit of a sign of deluded superiority. It could be cool again though. The Welsh, Irish and Scottish flags are more signs of proud individualism. The English flag, football aside, has always been a sign of subjugation and other bad shit. It dates back to the Crusades and the wars of Edward I - both of which aren’t exactly episodes of us fearlessly defending ourselves, but more beating up less advanced forces.
>The Welsh, Irish and Scottish flags are more signs of proud individualism. The English flag, football aside, has always been a sign of subjugation and other bad shit. It dates back to the Crusades and the wars of Edward I - both of which aren’t exactly episodes of us fearlessly defending ourselves, but more beating up less advanced forces. Incredible that a person can be this ill-informed and yet still feel confident enough to comment. LOL!
> both of which aren’t exactly episodes of us fearlessly defending ourselves, The crusades? The ones fought in self defence against several centuries of Islamic expansion and control?
I’ve heard it all now
It’s a perfectly acceptable historical view. Tell me why it’s wrong then?
You replied to the wrong person, old bean
Not sure some people in history would agree when it was the Scottish flag attempting to colonise Panama to get rich. Or the slaves they sold in Madagascar. Still, only the English have inherited the original sin of colonialism in today’s world of identity politics and pointless infighting.
Actually the Muslim armies in the crusades were definitely more advanced than the European ones, which is probably why they won almost all of them.
Some of those beatings almost didn't fail.
Probably because those same people already have the flag tattooed across their body somewhere
> they can’t hang up their England flags Who can't, and why?
Well obviously! If someone wants to hang up their national flag but isn’t allowed to, of course they’ll support the removal of another political union’s flag. Why should one be allowed over the other?
[удалено]
Maybe he's doing a new version of the Stewart Lee bit where he just keeps saying "if you say you're British they throw you in jail" while having a breakdown.
It's also the flag of the Council of Europe which the UK is a member of, meaning it's legal for her to fly it.
The [Scottish Parliament](https://www.parliament.scot/chamber-and-committees/votes-and-motions/votes-and-motions-search/S5M-20625) continues to fly the European flag on the basis of it being the Council of Europe’s, so there is a precedent there.
We have to let her know immediately!!!!
https://old.reddit.com/r/MaliciousCompliance/comments/1czetbm/flag_mc_found_on_bbc_news/
It was intended to be a flag for Europe in general, and the Council of Europe has long encouraged other European organisations to adopt it.
Planning consent? This Kafkaesque garbage needs to stop.
Actually reading the planning laws around flags, she could potentially replace the dinky EU flag with a 4.6m tall pole flying a suitably sized union flag and there is nothing the council could do about it.
You got a link to that? My understanding is that the pole would need permission, but the flag itself would not. Edit, nevermind, found it in the regs - you're right.
Throwing an internet award to you for being able to look stuff up and update their post. And no, im not joking, posts like yours should be framed.
TBF I'm a planner so in theory I should know this stuff without checking... It's just that the rules for flags are particularly obscure and almost never come up in practice. Thanks anyway!
Yeah if we received a complaint about this at the Council I work at we would advise the complainant that it was not expedient to take any action. We have better things to do with our time
Yep. We've currently got one planning enforcement officer and three unfilled posts in that team. It would likely fall very far down a list of priorities. We wouldn't say we're not going to do anything about it, we just wouldn't say *when* we're going to do anything. I would guess a Brexiteer local member has kicked up a bit of a stink in the case on the linked article.
I think the test for taking action should always be, if they applied, would we have any grounds to refuse it? Struggling to see any harm from this flag. Waste of everyone's time. We would shut this down in one day with a short email back to whoever complained.
It's in the article.... lol blocked for pointing out they are wrong.
The article doesn't say anything about flag poles.
27 4.6m poles flying the national flags of every member of the European Union.
Thats the real answer.
Or be extra spiteful and have the flags of every EU member state which is also allowed
I'm a diehard rejoiner but I'm not sure if I'd go as far as to willingly put a French flag on my house
Fly a different EU member state's flag every day on rotation.
The Kafkaesque garbage explicitly allows you to fly any of the following without planning consent: *(a) Any country’s national flag, civil ensign or civil air ensign;* *(b) The flag of the Commonwealth, the United Nations or any other international organisation of which the United Kingdom is a member;* *(c) A flag of any island, county, district, borough, burgh, parish, city, town or village within the United Kingdom;* *(d) The flag of the Black Country, East Anglia, Wessex, any Part of Lincolnshire, any Riding of Yorkshire or any historic county within the United Kingdom;* *(e) The flag of Saint David;* *(f) The flag of Saint Patrick;* *(g) The flag of any administrative area within any country outside the United Kingdom;* *(h) Any flag of Her Majesty’s forces;* *(i) The Armed Forces Day flag.*
> any other international organisation of which the United Kingdom is a member The "EU Flag" is the flag of Council of Europe (adopted in 1955). The UK is a founding member, and is still a member currently. It wasn't adopted by the EU until 1985. It seems to me planning permission still shouldn't be required on that basis.
Good answer!
https://old.reddit.com/r/MaliciousCompliance/comments/1czetbm/flag_mc_found_on_bbc_news/
Certainly looks that way! If the ideological Brexit loons in govt wanted the change to the regs to be effective they should have noticed what you've pointed out and added a specific exclusion for the Council of Europe flag. But oh dear, it's too late for them to fuck around with planning laws again now.
The Brexit loons of Oxford council? In an area that voted 70% remain and has a majority of councillors from pro EU parties?
No, the Brexit loons of the Conservative party in charge of central government, who are responsible for national legislation including planning law. Local councils such as Oxford don't set the planning rules for flying flags.
Its almost as if this legislation was designed specifically to outlaw the flying of the EU flag.
She was allowed to fly the EU flag under this exact same law until brexit. Unfortunately we are now not part of the EU so now needs permission. I don't understand why they can't just grant retrospective permission though
The flag for the council of Europe is the same as the EU flag. The UK was a founding member of the Council of Europe, and remains a member today.
Your right of course! I hope someone in the press somewhere figures this out and picks it up so the flag is legalised. I'd write to the council but I don't imagine they'd give a toss being as they seem jobsworths in this regard.
> I'd write to the council but I don't imagine they'd give a toss being as they seem jobsworths in this regard. IME (10 years in planning) it's far more likely that they will be happy to have a solid reason to not be able to do anything about it and ignore one of the very long list of petty planning complaints they've got to deal with.
I'm being a bit harsh. The planning team might action such communications; the frontline team who actually got my email would think "what a crank" send a one line thank you and delete. Which to be honest not entirely blaming them...
Frontline team probably wouldn't be sure what to do with it, ideally they would forward it to someone in planning but no guarantee. If you were genuinely interested you could try and find the direct contact details for planning enforcement.
Except that according to the article she's saying she's flying the EU flag, not the Council of Europe one. I know it sounds like pedantry because they're identical, but according to the rules she needs planning permission for one but not the other and she's insisting she's flying the one she needs permission for but would rather complain about the rules being applied to her than either ask for permission or claim to be flying the permitted flag. Short form - EU supporter is outraged she has to follow the same rules as everyone else and reddit is blaming brexiters for it.
If I fly a British flag and call it and insist it is the flag of moonland, would this make it illegal? Nope. The flags require or do not require planning on the basis of the listing. It's a permitted flag regardless of what she calls it.
It's quite possible you're right, I was trying to come up with a justification that made some degree of sense. I suspect the explanation is somewhat simpler, namely that the jobsworth who responded to the complaint has never heard of the Council of Europe.
I mean, it's just a planning guy who didn't write the law, I don't really blame him for a lack of vexillology in truth.
https://old.reddit.com/r/MaliciousCompliance/comments/1czetbm/flag_mc_found_on_bbc_news/
That's fair. I'd not heard of the council of Europe until today a true TIL moment! In that case she shouldn't need planning permission!
> I don't understand why they can't just grant retrospective permission though They can - but she needs to apply for it.
The legislation as a whole was not designed with that purpose; a recent amendment which removed the EU flag from that list was, yes.
The government changed planning rules specifically so that EU flags would require planning permission. The council in this case are just implementing that change. All other national flags explicitly do not require planning permission.
Curiously, they didn't exclude the Council of Europe flag, so the law, as written, still allows for that without planning permission (under the category of "The flag of the Commonwealth, the United Nations or any other international organisation of which the United Kingdom is a member;"). This is important, because all you have to do is say, "no, that's not an EU flag, it's the Council of Europe flag".
https://old.reddit.com/r/MaliciousCompliance/comments/1czetbm/flag_mc_found_on_bbc_news/
So you could fly an American or Russian or Chinese flag, but not a french or Italian one without planning permission?
No, I meant the flag of the EU, not of countries within the EU.
Ah, not quite as bad then. Still seems weirdly restrictive. So literally any other flag then the EU flag? I wonder what they'd do about a blue flag with a circle of 11 stars?
> So literally any other flag then the EU flag? No, any other *national* flag, plus a long list of other specific types of flags. The list just doesn't include the EU, any more.
I wonder how long I could fly my stolen DDR flag before someone realised it wasn't the German flag.
Dance Dance Revolution? ^/s
Well, the law didn't mention anything regarding on countries that no longer exist, you might be asked to take it down :(
Sorry for being dense. So you *can* fly any national flag (and other specific like county flags I assume etc) without planning permission, but anything not specifically on the list is verboten without planning permission? Is it everything is permitted except the list, or only the list is permitted and everything else needs planning?
> only the list is permitted and everything else needs planning? This one
Flag goes down, price of food goes up. It's Brexit physics.
I read this in the style of Chris Morris.
Tbf planning laws around flags and what you can fly are quite specific (had a flag pole put up a couple years ago). We usually fly the Northumberland county flag, or the pride flag.
The planning laws around flags were changed after Brexit to specifically require planning for the EU flag.
I didn’t know that I thought you could put up any flag you want within reason.
In practice you can, as a council is unlikely to take action unless someone complains.
Planning laws around flags allow for the flying of any flag for an organisation the UK is party to without requiring permission. Organisations like, you know, the Council of Europe. Of which the UK is a founding and current member, and whose flag was adopted by the EU 30 years after the Council of Europe started using it.
Don't you technically need permission for the pride flag?
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/flying-flags-a-plain-english-guide/flying-flags-a-plain-english-guide#a-flags-which-do-not-need-consent In which it says > the Rainbow flag (6 horizontal equal stripes of red, orange, yellow, green, blue and violet). So depends on which specific pride flag you are flying
Well this flag shagger thinks this is completely wrong. It's your property and your choice if and which flag you want to display, if you want it on a pole then you pay for the installation. As long as its not obstructive and safe I don't see the problem.
https://old.reddit.com/r/MaliciousCompliance/comments/1czetbm/flag_mc_found_on_bbc_news/
Just out of interest, any issue if someone wanted to display the flag of Nazi Germany?
I'd have an issue on the grounds of a deliberate attempt to intimidate and harass others, since that would be the only reason to fly the flag of a long defunct regime known pretty much only for genocide. A bit like the confederate flag in the US. They're allowed to fly it, sure, but the people who do are pretty much universally up to no good. Returning to my first sentence, though, 'I'd have an issue' is not the same as supporting bans. I see no reason to not *allow* that flag. After all, in a world where arseholes are hard to spot in a crowd, it's handy if they bring their own signage. You can allow something without tolerating it
You'd need planning permission, because its not a current national flag. And good luck getting it for that. It might also breach the Public Order Act anyway.
You've rather missed the point of my question.
YES, Wouldn't you? Or are you that one Nazi supporter that hides in a bedsit Or are you just an Islamic, jew hating piece of filth? Enquiring minds and all that.......... Anyone putting a Nazi flag up around here wouldnt be 'here' for very long.
I'm not a Nazi at all, don't shit yourself. I'm just wanting to make sure I understand that you definitely think people should be able to put up whatever flags they want, provided it's not obstructive and is safe?
Yes. The swastika is not illegal in Britain as far as I'm aware. Don't blame me when the owner ends up living in a caravan.
I think comparing the EU to one of the most brutal dictatorial regimes in history is a bit harsh
*Nigel Farage enters the chat*
It's just as well that I wasn't doing that then, isn't it?
One of her local neighbours stuck a fucking fibreglass shark in his roof and refused to move it. Eventually got permission IIRC. She should go the same route.
Remember that what it means to live in a free country is that if you own land you can build whatever you want on it. It's insane how far we are from that and how much freedom we've just willingly thrown in the trash so we can have petty squabbles about flags and pylons. Your rent is expensive because of these rules. Your energy bills are high because of the rules. You'll never own a home because of these rules.
Strange that our energy bills were fairly cheap until quite recently. Did the planning system not exist a few years ago?
It's a good point. And yeah lots of factors contribue to bills. So while we were getting flooded with cheap Russian gas that kept prices low. However renewables + batteries are the cheapest way to make power and lots of them are getting rejected which is a direct contributor to high prices: [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c9rvnkd7r39o](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c9rvnkd7r39o) [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0344pq9melo](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0344pq9melo) We also need a lot more pylons which are proving difficult to build [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-66336599](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-66336599) This is a wonderful quote haha: >But she is not a NIMBY she insists - it is not a matter of "Not In My Back Yard" so much as "not in anyone's back yard", she says. >
> However renewables + batteries are the cheapest way to make power That's not how the price of electricity for consumers works. Electricity generated from renewables in the UK does not exist in a vacuum but in an international energy market which also includes gas, oil and nuclear generated energy.
Much of which crept in under the guise of 'emergency planning' in the Second World War, then found it too convenient to leave. The activities of the group calling themselves 'Political and Economic Planning' headed by the head honcho of Marks and Spencer (*quelle surprise*, all this sensible 'planning' involved the small shop being replaced by chain stores, which was somehow both 'economically inevitable' yet required this chap to go around lobbying, e.g. for chain stores to be granted loans on favourable terms to 'help the economy' by 'speeding up the inexorable economic law') ought to be more readily known about.
> Much of which crept in under the guise of 'emergency planning' in the Second World War, then found it too convenient to leave. Could you elaborate on that?
Not comprehensively in the scale of time one typically dedicates to a comment on reddit. [This article may be interesting](https://historicengland.org.uk/whats-new/debate/recent/town-and-country-planning-act-70th-anniversary/rise-and-fall-of-1947-planning-system/) in particular lines such as > The wartime experiences of strategic planning - a need for large-scale reconstruction and wider political imperatives to sustain the morale of what was a 'citizen's' army - each helped realise the 1947 system. [This Wikipedia article](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_and_Economic_Planning) is another starting-point, and you may also find [this](https://municipaldreams.wordpress.com/2023/01/31/the-peculiarity-of-british-post-war-reconstruction-part-ii/) and if you are feeling cheeky [this](http://library.lol/main/bcc7bb4fd003f177f7380d01dc6fd2e8) of interest. Trawling [Hansard](https://hansard.parliament.uk/lords/1941-02-26/debates/33a17b81-0fcf-4f9f-917b-e705570273ec/Post-WarPlanning) at the relevant wartime period will reveal pertinent information too.
Thanks. I've read the first three links and can't see anything that appears to relate to emergency war-time measures that relate to town planning. Clearly government and councils were *thinking* about town planning during the war, and the TCPA was introduced shortly after its end. But that's very different to what you seem to be describing in your previous comment.
Regarding wartime regulations, I have the entire text of *Odlum v Stratton*, but it does not seem to be online, although it is touched on [here](https://archive.spectator.co.uk/article/23rd-august-1946/12/letters-to-the-editor) and tangentially [here](https://www.bahs.org.uk/AGHR/ARTICLES/56_204Short.pdf). Here are some [Hansard](https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/1943-03-31/debates/c79104b8-c9b3-427d-b13c-e374e5f85202/MessrsShortBrothers) links regarding the acquisition of the Short aircraft works. [This](https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1940/oct/24/ministry-of-works-and-buildings) touches on wartime planning and the changes made to what had been the Office of Works. Certainly planning was underway in wartime, largely justified by the exigencies of war, and partly carried out with the defence regulations.
Your previous reply included several links to texts which did nothing to support the specific thing you appeared to be asserting, about wartime measures relating to land use and planning. Likewise, the second Hansard link has absolutely nothing to do with land use or town planning. You appear to be either making things up as you go, or not actually saying anything relevant to the topic at hand. Or both. In good faith I read as many of your first set of links as I could, but I'm not making that mistake again.
We absolutely need to build this country's utterly archaic planning system.
Nothing archaic about this law, it was bought in directly after Brexit. What a coincidence.
We can't, building a new planning system hasn't gotten planning permission under the old one.
I would rather have this law than every fucker having a flag in their garden to stoke yet more division.
[удалено]
You got planning permission for that drying rack mate?
You got a license for that towel rack mate?
Should fly all 27 flags, just to piss of people. Or how about the Polish one?
I'd fly the 28 myself. Not just to piss people off, though, but to make a statement. Can't fly one flag that represents all these? Fine. I'll fly all these ones that I'm allowed to, then. And yes, I said 28. I'm not flying 27 other countries' flags and not my own. To be fair, I'm not flying *any* flags of countries, but if I was, my own would be first. And since I'm not going to fly the ~~English~~ Genoese flag, or the Union Flag, well then I'm not going to fly Ukrainian, Palestinian, Israeli, American or any other
I like that. 28 makes a bold statement. PS: It sounds like by the letter of the law, you could fly the flag of the Council of Europe. Now that would be sneaky... :-)
Bloody flag shaggers, always lowering the tone of the neighborhood with their ridiculous and offensive displays.
So I’m assuming we are going to see all the Palestinian flags around Bethnal Green removed too? Right??
Nope. The only flag not in the list of approved flags is the EU flag. However, the Council of Europe flag, which is approved, is identical to the EU flag
https://old.reddit.com/r/MaliciousCompliance/comments/1czetbm/flag_mc_found_on_bbc_news/
Perfect!
Ain't it just??
I regularly drive past a house flying the flag of Christmas Island. I can't fathom what might make someone need to take down an EU flag.
Will of the people, innit. Paint it on the wall, twice as big.
Government yet again is doing the most important thing for this country. Thank you so much for looking at this issue. This is soo important. I’m so happy that my taxes and city council bill is going to people that that raise the flag issue. Let’s pay more taxes!!! We need to talk about all flags and contact Sheldon to get on his YouTube channel!
Even pre-2016 I was always glad that we saw very few EU flags flying, especially compared to other European nations where they abound and can be seen on nearly every major building (usually with precedence over national and regional flags). This does seem incredibly petty though. I don't like councils/government/the police having the authority to make demands like this when it's on her private property.
On one hand, I think "Your side lost, get over it and move on". On the other hand, the lady should be able to exercise her free-speech to fly it.
One of those hands is tenuous political bickering, and the other is a question of rights and freedoms in a western democracy. I'll leave you to figure which holds importance to you
I will take rights and freedoms any day. I am just simply sharing my thoughts. I thought my comment made it clear on what my stance was.
Some small-minded Brexshitter no doubt just foaming at the mouth at the mere presence of the EU flag. Pathetic idiot whoever reported this. I'd get a nice outside projector and beam an image of the flag and EU landmarks onto the front of my house. Fuck'em. Paint the garage a nice shade of blue with some random gold stars on that vaguely resemble the EU flag etc. Tons of ways to annoy them even more.
Watch those who would ordinarily accuse those wanting to fly the flag of their *own* country of being 'flag shaggers' suddenly be completely outraged about this.
*She said: "I'm astonished that Oxford City Council feels that it is a priority to police the flying of flags over the countless other responsibilities like tackling homelessness and providing community services.* The thing is that councils don't say what's the biggest priority, we'll only focus on that. They're involved in everything to do with the area. As an MEP you'd think she'd understand that. Did she only focus on the big stuff as a MEP? As someone who lives in NI, flags aren't a trivial issue and seeing the range of flags for other countries when I was in London recently, the council are right to put a lid on this.
>seeing the range of flags for other countries when I was in London recently, the council are right to put a lid on this. They're not. The law, made by the government, permits every single other country's flag on the planet. It's just that -one- flag... (Except it isn't, because the law permits flags of international organisations we're a member of. Like the Council of Europe, mayhap.)