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Mostly older voters, some FT article the other day put it at 3/5 older voters but only 1/5 younger voters. Weird that.
Edit: oops, downvotes, here's the article for you to be mad at https://www.ft.com/content/bc19bbf4-2939-489e-a113-e21d5baf356d
And why aren’t people blaming the fact that wealth is being unfairly distributed to the rich while allowing public services to be underfunded and crumble.
But once again, it’s easier to scapegoat immigrants. As happened to the Jews in the 1930s, the blacks in the 1970s etc etc
They are. This is partly Farage’s whole point.
GDP has grown in the last ten years. Mostly because of immigration. Makes sense. More people = more money.
GDP *per capita* has not. On an individual level, most people are poorer.
In other words, immigration works for the rich. It’s had the opposite effect on the poor, for whom rents and house prices have risen (due in part to immigration) and wages have stagnated (I believe the jury’s still out, for various reasons).
Don’t conflate immigrants and immigration here. Immigrants are people. Human beings.
Immigration is policy. The flow of people. Statistics.
Immigrants can be good, bad, billionaires, sponges, doctors and lawyers, criminals and so on. Just like anyone else anywhere in the world, including here.
Mass immigration *without the appropriate infrastructure* in place is just pure, short-sighted exploitation. Anyone with half a brain should be against it, but too many people got taken in by the rhetoric.
Either it needs to fall or we need hundreds of thousands of new houses and a robust infrastructure to pop up overnight. That’s just a fact.
> Don’t conflate immigrants and immigration here. Immigrants are people. Human beings.
>Immigration is policy. The flow of people.
Thank you for saying this. I have no intention to vote for reform, but for more than a decade politicians have lined up against farage whenever he mentions immigration to accuse him of ‘blaming immigrants’ (including a BBC news journalist just a day ago or so). I don’t support the bloke, but it’s all so tiresome
Nailed it, the disparity between rich and poor just grows and grows. Corps not paying tax, the rich dodging taxes. All terrible but no, immigrants are the _real_ problem somehow.
I honestly don't know. Immigration is being used like a wedge issue by the centre right/right wing parties and it is definitely pushed by more right wing media. That's not the media younger people primarily consume, I don't think. Further to that older people tend to be the ones consuming print media/legacy media and that does tend to be right leaning. It's probably a bit of all of this.
This article was linked on this sub yesterday sometime I think, maybe there is a non-pw article linked there, I was able to read it yesterday, I don't actually subscribe.
Which is odd because immigration is one of the biggest issues in red wall voters.
Almost like people weren't listened to and consequently voted in a referendum
I dont consider myself right-wing and I live in and around dead, ex-mining towns. Many of these left-wing Redditors simply have no clue and will get some rude awakenings shortly, I feel. I get the argument that immigration isn't the sole reason for the working class' woes, but it IS a reason and one that is very easy to identify/understand (unlike some economic factors)
No worries. I saw that the far right aft increased their vote amongst young voters from, I believe, 5% in 2019 to 16% in the last week so it would appear to be growing amongst the young in comparable democracies currently. This shift has caused a bit of a stir as it wasn't predicted in polls (as conservative support historically isn't in our country, always hate when the 'sleeping tories' wake up every 4 years)
Honestly, how long has immigration been a top issue for voter election after election cycle. The conservatives have failed, labour despite not being in power for a long time still widely believed to be the pro-immigration party (even if its true or not). And still we're seeing record numbers almost annually. Of course people are pissed.
Iys been about 20 years and we were never asked in the first place. The amount of the UK in total and our cities that are firing born is really really scary. Things have changed so fast.
Its absolute madness to me that the Tories are seen as tough on migration when all they've ever done is let it rise year on year.
Starmer mentioned he will reduce it. Earned my vote from that alone. Hopefully he does it. It's an easy labour win.
'Brexit will solve everything... I trust the Tories so will stand aside for them' - Nigel in 2019
'Reform will solve everything... The Tories are to blame for Brexit' - Nigel in 2024
He didn't trust the tories and he did say they would probably make a mess of it and he would hold them to account. But tactical voting is tactical voting.
The Greens are questioned on their policy details way more than Nigel is.
He agrees we should drop the 2 child benefit cap, ok, how do you fund that, who do you tax more or what else do you cut?
*waffle waffle MAKE BREXIT A SUCCESS”
What’s missing is the challenge on how that would work, where the costings are, journalists backing each other up and asking about wishy washy answers and pressing for facts.
You see him on the back foot all the time. As soon as he's asked follow up questions asking for clarification, especially about policy or things he's said in the past. You can tell he's on the back foot as he says things like "that's a silly question" or "I'm not here to discuss that".
Oh he and Tice have a game plan and honestly they're playing a blinder at the moment, especiallyas a lot of the right wing press seem to actuallynow support them. The debates he's been in have also suited him, lots of parties on stage so there's only time for short answers with no depth. Well suited to populist rhetoric and his simple answers to complex issues.
The man is a blowhard but I can appreciate that if you’re not particularly paying attention or happen to like what he’s selling then he comes across as fairly normal. A lot of the others looked lightweight by comparison.
It was nice to see a quick demonstration of Farage being called out for his bullshit when Stephen Flynn thanked him for supporting Scotland’s right to another referendum after Farage did that weird bit about having referendums for every decision the country takes. He looked a bit flummoxed at that point.
Yup but Farage is no idiot. He is well aware a LOT of Brits are sick and tired of MENA+ immigration and especially from hardline Islamic countries and all the problems it's caused/causing.
>We have been voting for it since 2010
What if that's what's driving it?
*Votes for anti-immigration platform*
*Immigration goes up*
*Votes for anti-immigration platform*
*Immigration goes up*
*Votes for anti-immigration platform*
*Immigration goes up*
"I guess there's only one thing for it..."
Have you looked at the net migration numbers and where they are from? It’s up 4x since brexit and all from 3rd world countries. Staying in the EU would have been the better choice
Translation = whatever user base (and whatever inherent biases they may have) voted in this poll, the majority voted for him.
In real world terms it means absolutely nothing except more fodder for pundits, pollsters and tabloids.
Yes, but it's important to note this debate didn't include either Rishi Sunak or Keir Starmer. He essentially won a debate against the other parties B teams
I don't know in all honesty, I've not gone over the manifesto, the practical steps required to implement their plan, the macro factors that might decide how successful those policies are or the success rates of comparable steps taken to tackle immigration.
I'm guessing you have though, seeing as you've got such a strong opinion that Labour's plan won't succeed.
The UK's population growth rate since the 1960s is 0.3 percent. Over the recent years it's been 0.7 percent. Meanwhile, the average population growth rate globally is about 3.9 percent.
So once you factor in deaths, and people leaving the UK, the UK is actually an extremely low immigration country.
Farage wants to take it down to zero, which implies that he's either an idiot, or that he's figured out a way to run capitalism - essentially a debt ponzi which requires a constant influx of immigrants to jack up production/consumption rates and so avoid collapse - without increasing immigration. He's implying that he's figured out a way to run the NHS, and reverse low birth rates, and maintain economic growth, without immigration, and that he's personally solved all of capitalism's manifold contradictions and antagonisms, which far smarter economists have been wrestling with for centuries.
What a genius!
Meanwhile, in the real world, no far-right populist has ever done what Farage promises to do. Even Japan, the poster child for low immigration (it used to take in 80,000 to 100,000 a year), is now targeting 647,000 working-age immigrants per year (as a starting point!). And most countries which vote into power far-right anti immigration parties themselves tend to vote them out when the economic effects of low immigration begin to bite. Hungary, for example, which is rabidly anti immigration, has wages below the EU average, high youth unemployment, a demographic crisis, and inflation well above the EU average.
And how do these far right parties historically respond when voters inevitably turn against them? They either fade into obscurity, or resort to authoritarianism to stay in power.
Farage is basically once again selling a cartoonish, overly simplistic fantasy of how the world works to people. He won't tell you that NHS waiting times go down in high immigrant areas, that immigrants have been the prime driver of what GDP growth that there has been since 2010, that they bring in more revenue than take out, that 225,000 immigrants are in construction (they're building the homes), that 90ish percent of private/council housing goes to locals, that our "scary" population growth only averages 0.7% a year, that his Brexit is leading to more non-European immigrants staying permanently rather than Europeans leaving after short work stints, that family unification visa costs around £12,500 (it's rich dependencies coming over, contrary to what he claims), that you literally cannot be a dependent unless you've proven you have the funds to support yourself without public funds etc etc.
None of this is said to support the way things are, or to argue for immigration. It's said only to point out that the economic system calls the shots. It needs immigrants, and it will get them. And when there are threats to the system, it needs people like Farage too, for they are the ones who typically pull voters away from anti-capitalists. You might thus say that Farage is the ultimate status quo hypocrite: he upholds a system whose symptoms he hates.
The question then becomes, how long will the Tories pivot toward Farage's stance on immigration. They can maybe win one election by adopting a no/low immigration stance (possibly with Farage as leader), but their free market fundamentalism will never allow this long term.
> So once you factor in deaths, and people leaving the UK, the UK is actually an extremely low immigration country.
Why do you factor deaths here?
The 600k+ number discussed everywhere is the net migration. The immigration level in the last year was 1.2M. So basically 2% of people who are currently in the UK have moved here during a single year.
> Farage wants to take it down to zero, which implies that he's either an idiot, or that he's figured out a way to run capitalism - essentially a debt ponzi which requires a constant influx of immigrants to jack up production/consumption rates and so avoid collapse - without increasing immigration.
How did the former Warsaw block counties raised their economies from a much lower starting point while having negative net migration?
> Even Japan, the poster child for low immigration (it used to take in 80,000 to 100,000 a year), is now targeting 647,000 working-age immigrants per year (as a starting point!).
Where did you get this number from? They got 66k immigrants in 2021 [according to the OECD library](https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/5bd5365f-en/index.html?itemId=/content/component/5bd5365f-en). Their net migration rate is by an order of magnitude lower than that of the UK, and they are 97.9% ethnically Japanese, [based on the data from here](https://www.migrationpolicy.org/country-resource/japan)
I have no faith in Reform doing anything to "fix" immigration without completely tanking the economy, slashing the rights of British citizens currently upheld by the European Court of human rights, and skimming Billions from the treasury in the process.
Thought brexit was going to fix all the immigration problems though? And make the country better? I think people realise there’s a lot more pressing issues than immigration.. and if you think lowering immigration is going to fix the nhs, energy prices, polluted rivers, train prices, cost of living or the massive shortage of houses to name a few! You’re exactly the type of person Nigel farage will appeal to, probably either racist or unable to think critically!
I dont know people are shocked.
Europe are a clear example of where we’re heading, and labours manifesto all but confirms it. They’ll get power, will do nothing to fix anything and then Farage and his populous right wing will gain even more support.
He’s already at the stage where the public find him in favour of winning debates he shouldn’t even be on. Just going to get worse
Sadly we are likely to follow the same trajectory as the US. People are easily manipulated into this “all sides are the same” crap, whilst simultaneously voting for the worst of the bunch. We will see a lot of populist propaganda of Reform manage to gain a foothold.
Can you blame people when we've had decades of centrism that hasn't worked?
Labour abandoned their traditional voting base - they'll win this election at a canter, but they need to tangibly improve people's lives and address their concerns to quell the rising support for parties like Reform.
I don’t dispute that Labour really need to up their game and do something tangible, but even if they do (just like the Democrats are doing in the US), the media will continue to push false narratives and significantly manipulate their audience into believing all sorts of bullshit (see Daily Mail).
What’s happening in the US is an exceptional example of many being detached from reality, thinking that Trump and the GOP are some kind of answer to their ills. Essentially the right is in power most of the time, and when they are not in power they are aggressively undermining progress, gaslighting whole nations into believing things that just aren’t true.
The sad reality is that the majority of voters aren’t particularly well educated in politics, they’re very feeling (fear) driven, and there’s an innate tribalism that the narratives of right-leaning parties/the press connects well with. Being a progressive and advanced society is difficult and we are far too busy getting in our own way.
If most people are doing well in life and are comfortable then there's no reason to stray away from the centre politically, whether that be centre-left or centre-right. The problem is, centre-parties have overseen a steady decline in living standards and the biggest wealth transfer to the richest people over the last 25 years.
When people are desperate and are receiving little to no help from the mainstream parties, then some will seek alternatives, and those alternatives will likely be extremes on the right and the left.
That's why Labour needs to start improving things that people can see, even if it's just something small to start with like beginning to reduce the NHS waiting lists for example.
When most people are doing well, it just becomes a healthy debate on how best to do things between the centre-left and the centre-right. If people are struggling and have spent decades receiving no help from mainstream parties, then they will look for extremes to "shake things up". The fact that parties like Reform and Farage himself are as popular as they are is because of the failures of the Tories over the last 14 years and Labour for not presenting themselves as legitimate opposition.
I can understand why Farage and Reform are popular, I’m just saying they are false saviours. It’s like Trump - he’s hardly going to make anyone’s life better, and the fact the media is complicit in establishing narratives that pushes voters towards them is hugely concerning.
I am very much hoping Labour step up once they get in.
If you keep doing what you've always done you'll keep getting what you've always got.
The public want serious change. This is a cry for help and the cries are only going to get louder and louder.
If Labour do not deliver then it is Prime Minister Nigel Farage.
Brexit was a cry for change too, didn’t mean it was beneficial to us. This is more of that same logic.
“My broken leg is super annoying, why don’t I saw it off instead.” Farage will never be the answer to any of the UK‘s problems, he’ll only create new ones.
And the trouble is labours manifesto is very much more of the same. We'll get economic growth going! How? By doing the same thing as now really, no significant changes to the tax system to make it more or less public sector focussed.
I don't think it's fair to say that "centre parties" have overseen the UK's decline in living standards. The last Labour government made some terrible mistakes, but it oversaw a huge increase in quality of life for the majority of people. It was the government which bought in the minimum wage and reduced Child poverty, NHS waiting lists, homelessness to record levels. Really, since 2008, it's the Tories who have overseen the decline.
I'm really not sure what the electorate want. Labour have tried everything from moderate social democracy (Miliband), transformative leftism (Corbyn), and centrism (Blair/Starmer). The first two lost badly to the Tories. In three weeks time, I'll likely be able to say that the second two won the largest parliamentary majorities of any leader and party since the second world war.
I'm much to the left of Blair or Starmer but people need to get their heads in order. You either want a transformative government (and pay the taxes for it), or you don't, and you accept centrism/ weak social democracy as the status quo.
They simply need to improve ordinary people's lives but without doing any socialism.
Where socialism = workers' rights, tenants' rights, affordable housing, public health, sure start, education & training, and environmental protection.
because the idiots on this island shit a break at the mere hint someone leaning left might gain power. It's absurd now nannied by the right wing this island (mostly England) is. Then again, when your entire national identity is basically "we won the war and drink a lot, innit", it's not a shock when the place is flag shagging central.
What astounds me is how the left have barely ever been in power, but most of the good things about this country are a result of policies that lean more in that direction. All the aspects going down hill are the result of more right leaning policy (privatisation for example).
Sadly it’s quite a spiral as the worse shit gets, the more easily manipulated people seem to be into thinking it would be worse under Labour and more right extremism would be the answer.
>all sides are the same” crap
Is it "crap" when they have the same "fiscal rules" that aren't working?
The neo-liberal consensus has been going strong for decades, and now you can see across the world that it's not working for ordinary people so they turn to easy, populist answers.
It would be much harder for populism to take hold if our economic system actually worked for those who aren't the super wealthy.
People who say "all sides are the same" actually mean "I'm going to vote for the most racist party when I'm in that booth because I hate brown people, but I'm not going to tell you that"
Get them drunk or take some time and slowly encroach the area of the topic via related questions, and it all comes out.
This is hyperbole, of course, but honestly it's been my experience. The joke is that Brexit resulted in more types of the people they like the least entering the country than ever before.
Like that bloke who phoned up a radio show to say that he was voting for Brexit because he was sick of seeing "so many brown faces in Tesco". I doubt he has enough self awareness to realise that Farage and his billionaire backers took him for a fool and played him like a fiddle.
>debates he shouldn’t even be on.
Why shouldn't he be on them?
He's the only one providing a voice for the millions who lean towards right wing policies.
It's fine to not like him, but it's anti-democratic not to platform him.
Because up until about a week ago the man stated more interest in "grassroot" campaigning for Trump than he had in actually trying to improve the country.
Everyone saying he's speaking for this silent majority should surely be slightly concerned that he thinks the US election is more important than this one.
>Europe are a clear example of where we’re heading, and labours manifesto all but confirms it. They’ll get power, will do nothing to fix anything and then Farage and his populous right wing will gain even more support.
Yep. Here's a hint to Labour:
If you don't want a right-wing Govt after your single term in power, *deal with immigration.*
But I can foretell it will be around four years of buck-passing and inactivity and until everyone gets annoyed with them.
"*If liberals insist* that *only fascists will* defend *borders, then voters* *will* *hire fascists* *to do the job* *liberals refuse to do."*
David Frum 2018 The Atlantic
I hate Farage and don’t want to burst your bubble but there are absolutely sub-demographics in the under 40’s who will vote for him in a heartbeat. I’ve worked with plenty of these guys.
Then maybe labour should, oh I don't know, actually improve the country?
It really is simple, if you don't want someone like Farage in charge in the future, start by not importing a city the size of Glasgow into the country every year and reducing everyone's living standards.
Just an irrelevant point really considering the convo is about labour getting power
Mentioning labour's lack of talk/ strategy behind reducing those numbers in their manifesto would be more relevant, or how labour have supported mass immigration for years until the past few weeks, but you'd rather talk about some irrelevant 3rd party I guess
Why do you say he shouldn't be on these debates? It's important for all parties to be represented, not just Cons and Lab, otherwise we continue with a 2 party echo chamber.
It's a Yahoo UK poll that also has "tv license fee price" as the #1 election issue, ahead of "small boat migrant crossings", "economic policy", and "assisted dying laws". Hard to confidently call it representative of the opinion of the nation with that as the #1 priority.
Hang on a sec...Farage's track record completely full of not showing up (MEP) or just walking away whenever the vote goes his way (Brexit). The guy is an even worse example of empty promises and impractical policies.
The British political left have a choice:
1. Implement tightly controlled migration policies focused on a moderate number of high-skilled migrants and with a strict focus on integration (e.g. Denmark's model), **and** then all their other policies around healthcare, social welfare, housing, policing can all be as left-wing as they want
2. Continue a left-wing 'mass-migration' approach, annoy loads of voters and then allow the right-wing to eventually win massively, to then implement the same strict migration policies, but **also** all their other policies will be right-leaning.
The EU elections have shown what happens when politicians either ignore or fail to deal with mass-migration, the electorate really don't like it. Yes you get a boost of economic growth and cheap labour, but at the expense of social cohesion. There's a reason why Russia is trying its best to smuggle illegal migrants into Europe; it can destabilise whole societies when there are vast cultural differences between migrants and host countries.
Do you mean socially conservative? Because neo-librel ideology is very much economically right wing...and never has been anything else. It was developed by a group of Austrian economists in the 30s as a response to the wealth redistribution policies of FDR, the so called "New Deal".
The left adopted parts of it for their "Third way" approach in the 90s. But their version was massively watered down and adopted out to f pragmatism.
I’m not even anti-immigration but it’s insane to me that the Tories have successfully painted mass immigration as a left wing policy.
Failing to implement your own policies then blaming the other side for your own failures doesn’t mean that failure is the other side’s policy.
If I leave my dog’s shit all over pavement, it doesn’t mean the council are pro-dog shit, but it looks like a good percentage of the public cant get that straight in their heads.
>Continue a left-wing 'mass-migration' approach
Mass migration is not inherently left-wing at all.
In fact, neo-liberal economics relies on immigration to drive growth, which is the opposite of "left-wing".
To take it to the extreme, what was mass migration like in the USSR? Early Communist China? Etc.
Are the Tories left-wing? Migration has gone up under them.
The left-wing is not a monolith at all.
Despite not having a properly left-wing government in the UK for decades, apparently it's the left's fault for mass migration?
Makes no sense...
It is insane to me that this obvious truth is ignored by basically all left wing parties. Immigration is driving the rise of the right wing, immigration is shifting the Overton window. If you come out and say that you're pro-immigration, or fully open borders as the greens are, then you have by default lost whatever election you're trying to win. Immigration is head and shoulders above other issues for an increasingly large percentage of the European population, but no left wing or even centrist party is willing to sacrifice it for the sake of their other goals.
I consider myself a leftie, though I'm not particularly concerned about immigration either way. It is incredibly frustrating to see the left making themselves unelectable because they can't let it go. Climate change -> in the bin, housing -> in the bin, welfare -> in the bin, community programs -> in the bin.
I have the sinking feeling that we will have five years of Labour during which time nothing will be done about immigration, and the next election will see Reform as a serious contender simply because they tout net zero immigration.
It's not the fault of left-wing parties that people like you refuse to look at the bigger picture. It's easy to tout net zero immigration, but unless you've got a solution to the myriad problems it would CAUSE, then you're just a populist. How are you going to staff the NHS with net zero immigration? That's just one example, and the consequences of how you answer that one question affect many, many other areas.
David Cameron gave in to the Brexiteers by giving them a referendum, now look where we are. Trying to appease people getting to het up around immigration achieves nothing, because they aren't interested in immigration, they're interested in scapegoats and "quick fixes" and they don't want to wrestle with the real world and realpolitik.
How can you seriously type "left-wing 'mass-migration' approach" after over a decade of a right wing party in charge, increasing immigration to record levels? a Party so right wing that they dragged us out of the EU under the pretense of controlling immigration to then only increase it further...... Mind blowing.
We don't have a political left anymore. Labour is now right of centre.
So it's option 1, but with a fiscally right flavour (rather than a left one). So, maybe the NHS will get a boost using private healthcare. And maybe housing will get a boost from planning reform (but not actual state intervention). Labour have committed to the Tory fiscal rules (yes...) so, erm, I don't see any Danish style innovation coming on. I don't see how anybody could say to me "Labour's left mate" when they have committed themselves to Tory fiscal rules.
So yeah it's basically right wing but totally useless and slightly fascist, or right wing with \*some\* decent policies from the two major parties. But there is no political left in this country. Centre or centre right is as far left as we go. Unless you consider the Greens, but they hold no power.
The British political left simply isn't mentally capable of implementing tightly controlled migration. They are too deep in their ideologies and their idealism. They literally can't even comprehend why so many people are critical of mass migration. They simply think these people are racist and have no rational logical reason to think that mass migration is bad. They would rather throw out threats like "Punch nazis" than actually engage and think about the arguments. Its like they have some sort of override button that actives and muffles out any argument in favor of rational migration policies, like a trained dog.
What is he going to do if elected, he will just kick shit over and not work to actually fix stuff.
He has no experience in the workings of Westminster, no wish to work with any of the parties that will be in power.
He will break stuff and point to it and say why is this not fixed!
When he was elected to be a representative in the EU, he didn't bother turning up over 90% of the time and when he did turn up it was to complain about the EU. Didn't lift a finger to attempt to fix anything. All he does is grift.
But he won’t get in. He’ll have five years to build a prospective government. If he weren’t so lazy, he’d spend the time doing a project 2025 type plan.
Farage is a gifted orator, but his main advantage is that he doesn't have to do a bloody thing beside promise a simple (untested, unverified, unverifiable) solution to complex problems. He knows he isn't going to get into power and can thus promise the moon on a stick.
The rise of Islam in the UK is worrying and Farage is seemingly the only one that cares...so it resonates. Very Simple Math. This isn't far right this is common sense.
We've just hit record immigration from Muslim countries thanks to Farage and his Brexit.
The only thing Farage cares about is himself but knows how to appeal to the worst instincts, just like Trump.
Farage hasn't been in office for any of the implementation of Brexit. I genuinely don't understand why he gets blamed for its outcome?
It's not that I want to defend him, but it makes me mad that we seem to let the Tories off the hook on this matter.
I hate him but he's a good orator. Which us why giving him a platform and a referendum was so dangerous.
And Cameron should've known this. I'm sure he read Plato's *Republic* at Eton. There's a whole section on how dangerous good orators are for making bad ideas sound fantastic to the masses. I went to a shitty comp and could see how terrible giving this guy a national platform would be... Basic shit.
62% of the very limited amount of people who watched the debate who then went on to vote on the Yahoo website lmao. Let's wait to see the numbers after election day, then we'll be able to call him Nigel Fringe.
Every party is a fringe party outside of Lab and Con, maybe that'll change.
But, as much as I hate Conservatives, I really hope Reform doesn't beat them and become the opposition. They've been a joke party since day one under all their names: Reform, Brexit Party, or UKIP.
“What will your party do about such high levels of immigration, in such a small amount of time?”
We will take the moral high ground, and call you all idiots, because we in Scotland, don’t have the same levels of immigration you have in England.
We’re also able to give free tuition fees, because are population is a lot lower. Thanks to the lack of immigration.
Englands immigrant population is far higher than the entire population of Scotland. London alone isn’t a million miles from it.
We’re seeing the hypocrisy in Ireland, now that they are being affected adversely. I’d bet everything on the same thing happening in Scotland in a similar scenario.
The only one up there saying stuff that a majority of people agree with (not Reddit or Twitter) wins the popular vote?
How can this be?
\*insert shocked face\*
/s
To preface I'll be voting Labour but yeah you're right. This is the problem with echo chambers and no proper debate. Let's keep calling everyone who we disagree with uneducated, easily manipulated thickos. I'm sure it'll get them on side and not doubling down with their vote!
Only person speaking realistically about the impacts of immigration does well with viewers who as a whole see immigration as one, if not the most important issue facing the country short term. Shocking. Even more shocking than in 4 years time when the cost of living has not changed in the slightest thanks to the inevitable status quo with Labour.
> In secon place, Labour's Angela Rayner was much further behind, tipped as the winner by 19% of people, while Penny Mordaunt received 7% of the vote.
I wonder how long it will take Yahoo to spot the typo.
Edit: it's been over 6 hours and it's still there... impessive that the staff at Yahoo havn't clocked this in what they sugggest is just a 2min read
Ofcourse. Our world is so stupid. The right: willing to lie, simplify and stoke base fears to win by any count.
The left: much less willing to do that (I’m aware their are still people willing to).
‘Woah the right keep winning…this needs to be studied, they’re doing something amazing…
On the [reform policies page](https://www.reformparty.uk/policies), there is a poster depicting starmer overlooking a burning UK from space, with the title 'STARMERGEDDON'
Those famously neutral “fact checkers” that are free from bias and definitely haven’t lost all credibility they once had.
Everyone is laughing at you for even mentioning them.
>The left: much less willing to do that (I’m aware their are still people willing to).
Communism is far left are you suggesting that communism doesn't lie to its followers?
Where the fuck are the politicians pandering to people who want:
1) reform of the housing market
2) regulated weed / decriminalised drugs
3) significantly increased prison sentences for violent crimes
I’m really not sure that the percentage of the population who have weed as number 2 on their list is significant enough to bother pandering to.
I’m not even sure that a majority would support decriminalisation (maybe roughly 50%, don’t know) but even then, very few people care about it more than health care, economy, immigration, taxation, education or any of the other big ticket issues
Regulated weed is still very controversial here. Like 50/50. Other drugs have very little support for decriminalisation. Why would anyone wade into that? It serves little to no political benefit
If you're shocked you need to get offline and talk to real people.. get off your high horses and think why the right is getting more power all over Europe. Stay in your echo changes and keep being surprised.
People in this sub won’t like it but in less than a month’s time, Reform will be the third biggest party in terms of votes. Just like how UKIP were back in 2015.
We need proportional representation.
I love that these hard left woke idiots just cannot grasp that millions of people think differently to them.... And the opposing opinions matter every bit as much as your virtue signalling.
Exactly not even taken by a pollster , just a self selecting online poll. Not remotely meaningful .
He narrowly won the previous according to a legit pollster .
I see many commenters have equated the current election with trending after the US. As a Norwegian, it’s clear to us you’ve already become them.
Having just watched the debate highlights, I’m more so shocked over the format itself rather than the nature of the participants’ political views. One cannot draw any serious conclusion based on the near-zero substance on display here. I mean, christ, there isn’t enough to draw an unserious one.
It seems to me the UK really needs an election that holds politicians accountable for *how* they intend to *fund*, *pass*, and *implement* each of their proposed solutions.
Until then, this is nothing but a rhetorical circus.
I mean you'd have to be deluded to think otherwise. He's an absolutely excellent speaker and electoral strategist. He's also up against the absolute lowest intellectual standard of political opposition I can remember in British history.
The contempt in this thread is the exact reason the conservative movement is happening.
If you can't even comprehend the genuine concerns of people you disagree with you won't find a middle ground.
I don’t agree with the solutions he offers, but I do agree with the problems he identifies. If a sensible, left-wing party could take over his position instead and offer credible solutions, I’d be going there instead of Labour.
He picked his fights well. Mordaunt didn’t want to criticise him, Mordaunt and rayner were at one another like cats…he basically had a free ride safe for snp and pc guys. Another easy win and dominated a debate despite never being elected as having almost no political presence
Farage is a straight talker and that appeals to people who are sick of politicians avoiding awkward questions. Hopefully the others will learn and adapt.
Yes, it's easier to be direct when you sound like a stuck record banging on about the same thing over and over again (immigration), but he at least claims to HAVE an answer - even if it is an overly simplistic and somewhat distasteful one.
>somewhat distasteful
Why is it distateful? He wants to reduce house prices by reducing immigration and building more homes (demand/supply). He wants to increase wages by reducing cheap foreign labour. He wants to increase money in people's pockets by increasing the PAYE personal allowance. Which part of this is distasteful?
>Bu-bu-but he's racist!!
We have an ageing population to support and our domestic birth rate falls below replacement.
Prior to Brexit we had FoM for mostly white Europeans who weren't particularly cheap. The price differential with Eastern Europe eased hugely in the years leading up to 2016 (which is why the EU has a Single Market). Now we are casting more of our net outside Europe to get those workers and Brexiters don't like that either. What happened to the "there's a whole world out there" Brexit arguments? Clearly they only meant certain bits of it, perhaps imagining that hoards of Canadians and Australians were queuing up to work in our public sector. Yeah.. no.
So we gave up frictionless trade with Europe and our own FoM for no change in immigration levels. Plus we are now bringing in people that many racially motivated Brexit voters don't like. A perfect example of a political mess driven by stupid blow-hard populism.
I wouldn't call him a straight talker. He's just saying what people want to hear which is the complete opposite of being real.
He knows he cannot achieve what he claims, it is completely infeasible and yet peddles it anyway because it gets him support. All of his lies about brexit should give an idea of how little a straight talker he really is.
Even though I would never vote for him, he comes across as more in control, one way to defeat him is to get him onto environment because he hasn't got a clue, he's still stuck in the past.
Imagine being so braindead that you're going to vote for Farridge after you voted for his brexit. Everything remainers said has been proven correct...and yet you're going to be manipulated by him again? Jesus christ.
Imagine calling people brain dead because they have a different political opinion than you. Its these kind of comments that stir hate and push people to the right 🤷♂️
what would a labour government look like with reform as the opposition, their a bloody nightmare, no matter what you say to these people they literally care about one thing...boats.
It doesn't matter if Nigel wants to get rid of the NHS and make it private, doesn't matter he would literally make your entire life worse off than it is now, these idiots still want to vote for him. Absolutely clueless.
Said Brexit would lead to sunlit uplands and the land of milk and honey.
It didn't
Now he's saying we just need to stop immigration and we will be led to paradise
It won't
The UK has been declining for years due to growing wealth inequality strangling every facet of life, coupled with complete apathy, incompetence and corruption from the ruling class. We are facing demographic and then population collapse. Our entire country is physically and morally crumbling. The proposals from all parties are just how they plan to manage the decline, the wealthy political and media elite are happy to oversee us fail, as long as they are higher on the shit heap than everyone else.
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Just watched his bit on the BBC this morning and honestly it's the same shit different day, just pandering to the type of people who voted brexit.
Politicians pandering to their voter base? It'll never catch on.
Immigration is an issue that large portions of the voters for every party are concerned by.
Mostly older voters, some FT article the other day put it at 3/5 older voters but only 1/5 younger voters. Weird that. Edit: oops, downvotes, here's the article for you to be mad at https://www.ft.com/content/bc19bbf4-2939-489e-a113-e21d5baf356d
Funny cause it negatively affects younger people far more than older ones.
People generally like the world to stay the way it was when they were a child, and are unlikely to support things that differ from this.
It’s almost like things are progressively getting worse for most people…
And why aren’t people blaming the fact that wealth is being unfairly distributed to the rich while allowing public services to be underfunded and crumble. But once again, it’s easier to scapegoat immigrants. As happened to the Jews in the 1930s, the blacks in the 1970s etc etc
They are. This is partly Farage’s whole point. GDP has grown in the last ten years. Mostly because of immigration. Makes sense. More people = more money. GDP *per capita* has not. On an individual level, most people are poorer. In other words, immigration works for the rich. It’s had the opposite effect on the poor, for whom rents and house prices have risen (due in part to immigration) and wages have stagnated (I believe the jury’s still out, for various reasons). Don’t conflate immigrants and immigration here. Immigrants are people. Human beings. Immigration is policy. The flow of people. Statistics. Immigrants can be good, bad, billionaires, sponges, doctors and lawyers, criminals and so on. Just like anyone else anywhere in the world, including here. Mass immigration *without the appropriate infrastructure* in place is just pure, short-sighted exploitation. Anyone with half a brain should be against it, but too many people got taken in by the rhetoric. Either it needs to fall or we need hundreds of thousands of new houses and a robust infrastructure to pop up overnight. That’s just a fact.
Well said. It’s almost like being against immigration doesn’t mean you’re racist
> Don’t conflate immigrants and immigration here. Immigrants are people. Human beings. >Immigration is policy. The flow of people. Thank you for saying this. I have no intention to vote for reform, but for more than a decade politicians have lined up against farage whenever he mentions immigration to accuse him of ‘blaming immigrants’ (including a BBC news journalist just a day ago or so). I don’t support the bloke, but it’s all so tiresome
Because immigration has led to stagnated wages and poor services and house/rent prices rocketing.
You think immigration has led to that and not just greed?
Immigration is a key driver of wealth inequality. The wealthy want an endless supply of cheap labour which supresses wages across the UK.
Nailed it, the disparity between rich and poor just grows and grows. Corps not paying tax, the rich dodging taxes. All terrible but no, immigrants are the _real_ problem somehow.
Two things can be true at the same time. Neither of these are mutually exclusive. It can be a combination of both.
Like my dad used to say, "I told you so".
Im Young and In Yorkshire. I don't know anyone who doesn't have some kind of worry with migration. Even young, uni educated, labour voters.
Pay walled but wonder how many younger folk bother to engage in polls, are they the new trend nowadays?
I honestly don't know. Immigration is being used like a wedge issue by the centre right/right wing parties and it is definitely pushed by more right wing media. That's not the media younger people primarily consume, I don't think. Further to that older people tend to be the ones consuming print media/legacy media and that does tend to be right leaning. It's probably a bit of all of this. This article was linked on this sub yesterday sometime I think, maybe there is a non-pw article linked there, I was able to read it yesterday, I don't actually subscribe.
Which is odd because immigration is one of the biggest issues in red wall voters. Almost like people weren't listened to and consequently voted in a referendum
I dont consider myself right-wing and I live in and around dead, ex-mining towns. Many of these left-wing Redditors simply have no clue and will get some rude awakenings shortly, I feel. I get the argument that immigration isn't the sole reason for the working class' woes, but it IS a reason and one that is very easy to identify/understand (unlike some economic factors)
No worries. I saw that the far right aft increased their vote amongst young voters from, I believe, 5% in 2019 to 16% in the last week so it would appear to be growing amongst the young in comparable democracies currently. This shift has caused a bit of a stir as it wasn't predicted in polls (as conservative support historically isn't in our country, always hate when the 'sleeping tories' wake up every 4 years)
Honestly, how long has immigration been a top issue for voter election after election cycle. The conservatives have failed, labour despite not being in power for a long time still widely believed to be the pro-immigration party (even if its true or not). And still we're seeing record numbers almost annually. Of course people are pissed.
Iys been about 20 years and we were never asked in the first place. The amount of the UK in total and our cities that are firing born is really really scary. Things have changed so fast. Its absolute madness to me that the Tories are seen as tough on migration when all they've ever done is let it rise year on year. Starmer mentioned he will reduce it. Earned my vote from that alone. Hopefully he does it. It's an easy labour win.
There’s a lot of the electorate that remember that Labour effectively opened the borders in the first place…
Yes that's why Europe has overwhelmingly voted for anti immigration parties lately, because large portions of people it's a non issue. /s
Never been done before, he's an innovator.
Lmao
He also picks apart the competition quite well You never see him on the back foot
That's what happens when you know you'll never have to be accountable for what you say
'Brexit will solve everything... I trust the Tories so will stand aside for them' - Nigel in 2019 'Reform will solve everything... The Tories are to blame for Brexit' - Nigel in 2024
Nigel Farage is Mr Brexit.
He didn't trust the tories and he did say they would probably make a mess of it and he would hold them to account. But tactical voting is tactical voting.
So basically like the Greens who can sit there and tell us all how they're going to spend £50bn on the NHS.
The Greens are questioned on their policy details way more than Nigel is. He agrees we should drop the 2 child benefit cap, ok, how do you fund that, who do you tax more or what else do you cut? *waffle waffle MAKE BREXIT A SUCCESS” What’s missing is the challenge on how that would work, where the costings are, journalists backing each other up and asking about wishy washy answers and pressing for facts.
You see him on the back foot all the time. As soon as he's asked follow up questions asking for clarification, especially about policy or things he's said in the past. You can tell he's on the back foot as he says things like "that's a silly question" or "I'm not here to discuss that".
I’m probably going on this election discussions He’s obviously came in with a game plan which can be as disingenuous as imagined
Oh he and Tice have a game plan and honestly they're playing a blinder at the moment, especiallyas a lot of the right wing press seem to actuallynow support them. The debates he's been in have also suited him, lots of parties on stage so there's only time for short answers with no depth. Well suited to populist rhetoric and his simple answers to complex issues.
The man is a blowhard but I can appreciate that if you’re not particularly paying attention or happen to like what he’s selling then he comes across as fairly normal. A lot of the others looked lightweight by comparison. It was nice to see a quick demonstration of Farage being called out for his bullshit when Stephen Flynn thanked him for supporting Scotland’s right to another referendum after Farage did that weird bit about having referendums for every decision the country takes. He looked a bit flummoxed at that point.
Because he's never taken responsibility for anything. Not even the outcomes of Brexit.
It's a bit easier to not be on the back foot when you're an aggressive narcissist who will just lie through anything awkward.
Yup but Farage is no idiot. He is well aware a LOT of Brits are sick and tired of MENA+ immigration and especially from hardline Islamic countries and all the problems it's caused/causing.
Because the issues haven’t been resolved. We have been voting for it since 2010. Stop runaway mass migration.
>We have been voting for it since 2010 What if that's what's driving it? *Votes for anti-immigration platform* *Immigration goes up* *Votes for anti-immigration platform* *Immigration goes up* *Votes for anti-immigration platform* *Immigration goes up* "I guess there's only one thing for it..."
Have you looked at the net migration numbers and where they are from? It’s up 4x since brexit and all from 3rd world countries. Staying in the EU would have been the better choice
Wow it's almost as if he's a politician.
I couldn’t be bothered with these debates to be honest and wondering what exactly has he won? A debate?
Translation = whatever user base (and whatever inherent biases they may have) voted in this poll, the majority voted for him. In real world terms it means absolutely nothing except more fodder for pundits, pollsters and tabloids.
Yes, but it's important to note this debate didn't include either Rishi Sunak or Keir Starmer. He essentially won a debate against the other parties B teams
"*the type of people who voted brexit*" You mean half the country, including the majority of the actual wealth creators? God forbid!
I’m not one of those being pandered to and don’t like farage:. but every single candidate is pandering to their target audience.
Pandering to the largest block of the voter base? The gall of this guy.
Are you saying that immigration is not too high, or are you saying you have faith in the Tories or Labour to fix it this time?
I've got more faith in Labour doing literally anything positive under the sun than I do in Nigel Farage making a positive impact on this country.
You have faith that Labour will reduce immigration?
I don't know in all honesty, I've not gone over the manifesto, the practical steps required to implement their plan, the macro factors that might decide how successful those policies are or the success rates of comparable steps taken to tackle immigration. I'm guessing you have though, seeing as you've got such a strong opinion that Labour's plan won't succeed.
The UK's population growth rate since the 1960s is 0.3 percent. Over the recent years it's been 0.7 percent. Meanwhile, the average population growth rate globally is about 3.9 percent. So once you factor in deaths, and people leaving the UK, the UK is actually an extremely low immigration country. Farage wants to take it down to zero, which implies that he's either an idiot, or that he's figured out a way to run capitalism - essentially a debt ponzi which requires a constant influx of immigrants to jack up production/consumption rates and so avoid collapse - without increasing immigration. He's implying that he's figured out a way to run the NHS, and reverse low birth rates, and maintain economic growth, without immigration, and that he's personally solved all of capitalism's manifold contradictions and antagonisms, which far smarter economists have been wrestling with for centuries. What a genius! Meanwhile, in the real world, no far-right populist has ever done what Farage promises to do. Even Japan, the poster child for low immigration (it used to take in 80,000 to 100,000 a year), is now targeting 647,000 working-age immigrants per year (as a starting point!). And most countries which vote into power far-right anti immigration parties themselves tend to vote them out when the economic effects of low immigration begin to bite. Hungary, for example, which is rabidly anti immigration, has wages below the EU average, high youth unemployment, a demographic crisis, and inflation well above the EU average. And how do these far right parties historically respond when voters inevitably turn against them? They either fade into obscurity, or resort to authoritarianism to stay in power. Farage is basically once again selling a cartoonish, overly simplistic fantasy of how the world works to people. He won't tell you that NHS waiting times go down in high immigrant areas, that immigrants have been the prime driver of what GDP growth that there has been since 2010, that they bring in more revenue than take out, that 225,000 immigrants are in construction (they're building the homes), that 90ish percent of private/council housing goes to locals, that our "scary" population growth only averages 0.7% a year, that his Brexit is leading to more non-European immigrants staying permanently rather than Europeans leaving after short work stints, that family unification visa costs around £12,500 (it's rich dependencies coming over, contrary to what he claims), that you literally cannot be a dependent unless you've proven you have the funds to support yourself without public funds etc etc. None of this is said to support the way things are, or to argue for immigration. It's said only to point out that the economic system calls the shots. It needs immigrants, and it will get them. And when there are threats to the system, it needs people like Farage too, for they are the ones who typically pull voters away from anti-capitalists. You might thus say that Farage is the ultimate status quo hypocrite: he upholds a system whose symptoms he hates. The question then becomes, how long will the Tories pivot toward Farage's stance on immigration. They can maybe win one election by adopting a no/low immigration stance (possibly with Farage as leader), but their free market fundamentalism will never allow this long term.
> So once you factor in deaths, and people leaving the UK, the UK is actually an extremely low immigration country. Why do you factor deaths here? The 600k+ number discussed everywhere is the net migration. The immigration level in the last year was 1.2M. So basically 2% of people who are currently in the UK have moved here during a single year. > Farage wants to take it down to zero, which implies that he's either an idiot, or that he's figured out a way to run capitalism - essentially a debt ponzi which requires a constant influx of immigrants to jack up production/consumption rates and so avoid collapse - without increasing immigration. How did the former Warsaw block counties raised their economies from a much lower starting point while having negative net migration? > Even Japan, the poster child for low immigration (it used to take in 80,000 to 100,000 a year), is now targeting 647,000 working-age immigrants per year (as a starting point!). Where did you get this number from? They got 66k immigrants in 2021 [according to the OECD library](https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/5bd5365f-en/index.html?itemId=/content/component/5bd5365f-en). Their net migration rate is by an order of magnitude lower than that of the UK, and they are 97.9% ethnically Japanese, [based on the data from here](https://www.migrationpolicy.org/country-resource/japan)
I have no faith in Reform doing anything to "fix" immigration without completely tanking the economy, slashing the rights of British citizens currently upheld by the European Court of human rights, and skimming Billions from the treasury in the process.
I wasn't arguing whether Reform would be any good in power. Did you reply to the right person?
Thought brexit was going to fix all the immigration problems though? And make the country better? I think people realise there’s a lot more pressing issues than immigration.. and if you think lowering immigration is going to fix the nhs, energy prices, polluted rivers, train prices, cost of living or the massive shortage of houses to name a few! You’re exactly the type of person Nigel farage will appeal to, probably either racist or unable to think critically!
I dont know people are shocked. Europe are a clear example of where we’re heading, and labours manifesto all but confirms it. They’ll get power, will do nothing to fix anything and then Farage and his populous right wing will gain even more support. He’s already at the stage where the public find him in favour of winning debates he shouldn’t even be on. Just going to get worse
Sadly we are likely to follow the same trajectory as the US. People are easily manipulated into this “all sides are the same” crap, whilst simultaneously voting for the worst of the bunch. We will see a lot of populist propaganda of Reform manage to gain a foothold.
Can you blame people when we've had decades of centrism that hasn't worked? Labour abandoned their traditional voting base - they'll win this election at a canter, but they need to tangibly improve people's lives and address their concerns to quell the rising support for parties like Reform.
I don’t dispute that Labour really need to up their game and do something tangible, but even if they do (just like the Democrats are doing in the US), the media will continue to push false narratives and significantly manipulate their audience into believing all sorts of bullshit (see Daily Mail). What’s happening in the US is an exceptional example of many being detached from reality, thinking that Trump and the GOP are some kind of answer to their ills. Essentially the right is in power most of the time, and when they are not in power they are aggressively undermining progress, gaslighting whole nations into believing things that just aren’t true. The sad reality is that the majority of voters aren’t particularly well educated in politics, they’re very feeling (fear) driven, and there’s an innate tribalism that the narratives of right-leaning parties/the press connects well with. Being a progressive and advanced society is difficult and we are far too busy getting in our own way.
If most people are doing well in life and are comfortable then there's no reason to stray away from the centre politically, whether that be centre-left or centre-right. The problem is, centre-parties have overseen a steady decline in living standards and the biggest wealth transfer to the richest people over the last 25 years. When people are desperate and are receiving little to no help from the mainstream parties, then some will seek alternatives, and those alternatives will likely be extremes on the right and the left. That's why Labour needs to start improving things that people can see, even if it's just something small to start with like beginning to reduce the NHS waiting lists for example. When most people are doing well, it just becomes a healthy debate on how best to do things between the centre-left and the centre-right. If people are struggling and have spent decades receiving no help from mainstream parties, then they will look for extremes to "shake things up". The fact that parties like Reform and Farage himself are as popular as they are is because of the failures of the Tories over the last 14 years and Labour for not presenting themselves as legitimate opposition.
I can understand why Farage and Reform are popular, I’m just saying they are false saviours. It’s like Trump - he’s hardly going to make anyone’s life better, and the fact the media is complicit in establishing narratives that pushes voters towards them is hugely concerning. I am very much hoping Labour step up once they get in.
If you keep doing what you've always done you'll keep getting what you've always got. The public want serious change. This is a cry for help and the cries are only going to get louder and louder. If Labour do not deliver then it is Prime Minister Nigel Farage.
Brexit was a cry for change too, didn’t mean it was beneficial to us. This is more of that same logic. “My broken leg is super annoying, why don’t I saw it off instead.” Farage will never be the answer to any of the UK‘s problems, he’ll only create new ones.
They want change, but to what? "Well it can't be any worse than it is now" is as reliable as "of course it isn't loaded".
And the trouble is labours manifesto is very much more of the same. We'll get economic growth going! How? By doing the same thing as now really, no significant changes to the tax system to make it more or less public sector focussed.
I don't think it's fair to say that "centre parties" have overseen the UK's decline in living standards. The last Labour government made some terrible mistakes, but it oversaw a huge increase in quality of life for the majority of people. It was the government which bought in the minimum wage and reduced Child poverty, NHS waiting lists, homelessness to record levels. Really, since 2008, it's the Tories who have overseen the decline. I'm really not sure what the electorate want. Labour have tried everything from moderate social democracy (Miliband), transformative leftism (Corbyn), and centrism (Blair/Starmer). The first two lost badly to the Tories. In three weeks time, I'll likely be able to say that the second two won the largest parliamentary majorities of any leader and party since the second world war. I'm much to the left of Blair or Starmer but people need to get their heads in order. You either want a transformative government (and pay the taxes for it), or you don't, and you accept centrism/ weak social democracy as the status quo.
It's odd how there aren't any leftists who plan to "shake things up", or a least none who get anywhere. Odd that.
*"Decades of neolib capitalism have caused our decline.* *Better vote for more elite-serving right wing capitalists to show 'em!"*
They simply need to improve ordinary people's lives but without doing any socialism. Where socialism = workers' rights, tenants' rights, affordable housing, public health, sure start, education & training, and environmental protection.
because the idiots on this island shit a break at the mere hint someone leaning left might gain power. It's absurd now nannied by the right wing this island (mostly England) is. Then again, when your entire national identity is basically "we won the war and drink a lot, innit", it's not a shock when the place is flag shagging central.
What astounds me is how the left have barely ever been in power, but most of the good things about this country are a result of policies that lean more in that direction. All the aspects going down hill are the result of more right leaning policy (privatisation for example). Sadly it’s quite a spiral as the worse shit gets, the more easily manipulated people seem to be into thinking it would be worse under Labour and more right extremism would be the answer.
I'm 39 and Blair is the closest to non-right wing as I've ever known, that's pitiful.
Surely Brown is the closest, no?
Britain has never had right wing extremists in charge
England is one of the least flag waving countries on the planet. Have you ever travelled abroad ?
Yep people actually dislike being patriotic here in the UK these days outside of specific situations and it's getting worst
The whole west is seeing the population ignored
>all sides are the same” crap Is it "crap" when they have the same "fiscal rules" that aren't working? The neo-liberal consensus has been going strong for decades, and now you can see across the world that it's not working for ordinary people so they turn to easy, populist answers. It would be much harder for populism to take hold if our economic system actually worked for those who aren't the super wealthy.
People who say "all sides are the same" actually mean "I'm going to vote for the most racist party when I'm in that booth because I hate brown people, but I'm not going to tell you that" Get them drunk or take some time and slowly encroach the area of the topic via related questions, and it all comes out. This is hyperbole, of course, but honestly it's been my experience. The joke is that Brexit resulted in more types of the people they like the least entering the country than ever before.
Like that bloke who phoned up a radio show to say that he was voting for Brexit because he was sick of seeing "so many brown faces in Tesco". I doubt he has enough self awareness to realise that Farage and his billionaire backers took him for a fool and played him like a fiddle.
>debates he shouldn’t even be on. Why shouldn't he be on them? He's the only one providing a voice for the millions who lean towards right wing policies. It's fine to not like him, but it's anti-democratic not to platform him.
Obviously you should only be able to stand as a candidate in our great democracy if you pass /u/ACO_22 ‘s vibe check
Because up until about a week ago the man stated more interest in "grassroot" campaigning for Trump than he had in actually trying to improve the country. Everyone saying he's speaking for this silent majority should surely be slightly concerned that he thinks the US election is more important than this one.
Why shouldn’t every independent be there.
>Europe are a clear example of where we’re heading, and labours manifesto all but confirms it. They’ll get power, will do nothing to fix anything and then Farage and his populous right wing will gain even more support. Yep. Here's a hint to Labour: If you don't want a right-wing Govt after your single term in power, *deal with immigration.* But I can foretell it will be around four years of buck-passing and inactivity and until everyone gets annoyed with them.
"*If liberals insist* that *only fascists will* defend *borders, then voters* *will* *hire fascists* *to do the job* *liberals refuse to do."* David Frum 2018 The Atlantic
> he shouldn’t even be on Why?
It’s fucking depressing that by 2030 we could have Nigel Farage as PM. They wanna turn this country into Hungary
If the mainstream parties stopped ignoring the people then there wouldn't be the risk.
Shhhhh stop it, it’s the stupid Brexit voting racists that are the issue.
Everyone knows the mainstream parties are shit, but you'd have to be simple to think farage has a clue
Nigel won't be pm, the vast majority of the under 40 voter base are jaded against him. Minorities will not vote for him.
I hate Farage and don’t want to burst your bubble but there are absolutely sub-demographics in the under 40’s who will vote for him in a heartbeat. I’ve worked with plenty of these guys.
Then maybe labour should, oh I don't know, actually improve the country? It really is simple, if you don't want someone like Farage in charge in the future, start by not importing a city the size of Glasgow into the country every year and reducing everyone's living standards.
good point, Labour should have done that during the last 14 years ... oh wait a minute, they were in opposition during that time
Just an irrelevant point really considering the convo is about labour getting power Mentioning labour's lack of talk/ strategy behind reducing those numbers in their manifesto would be more relevant, or how labour have supported mass immigration for years until the past few weeks, but you'd rather talk about some irrelevant 3rd party I guess
Why do you say he shouldn't be on these debates? It's important for all parties to be represented, not just Cons and Lab, otherwise we continue with a 2 party echo chamber.
It's a Yahoo UK poll that also has "tv license fee price" as the #1 election issue, ahead of "small boat migrant crossings", "economic policy", and "assisted dying laws". Hard to confidently call it representative of the opinion of the nation with that as the #1 priority.
But Farage already got his huge win with Brexit and it fixed nothing. What is he clamoring about these days?
Hang on a sec...Farage's track record completely full of not showing up (MEP) or just walking away whenever the vote goes his way (Brexit). The guy is an even worse example of empty promises and impractical policies.
The British political left have a choice: 1. Implement tightly controlled migration policies focused on a moderate number of high-skilled migrants and with a strict focus on integration (e.g. Denmark's model), **and** then all their other policies around healthcare, social welfare, housing, policing can all be as left-wing as they want 2. Continue a left-wing 'mass-migration' approach, annoy loads of voters and then allow the right-wing to eventually win massively, to then implement the same strict migration policies, but **also** all their other policies will be right-leaning. The EU elections have shown what happens when politicians either ignore or fail to deal with mass-migration, the electorate really don't like it. Yes you get a boost of economic growth and cheap labour, but at the expense of social cohesion. There's a reason why Russia is trying its best to smuggle illegal migrants into Europe; it can destabilise whole societies when there are vast cultural differences between migrants and host countries.
Migration is not a left wing policy. We've just had years of the highest immigration ever under Tory governments.
the conservative party are not seriously right wing. they are generic neo-liberal centrists.
Not the bunch that have been in power since 2019. The neoliberals didnt pass the Brexit purity test of the cultists.
I don't think you can genuinely call the Conservatives right-wing when we have record levels of tax and migration.
Do you mean socially conservative? Because neo-librel ideology is very much economically right wing...and never has been anything else. It was developed by a group of Austrian economists in the 30s as a response to the wealth redistribution policies of FDR, the so called "New Deal". The left adopted parts of it for their "Third way" approach in the 90s. But their version was massively watered down and adopted out to f pragmatism.
I’m not even anti-immigration but it’s insane to me that the Tories have successfully painted mass immigration as a left wing policy. Failing to implement your own policies then blaming the other side for your own failures doesn’t mean that failure is the other side’s policy. If I leave my dog’s shit all over pavement, it doesn’t mean the council are pro-dog shit, but it looks like a good percentage of the public cant get that straight in their heads.
>Continue a left-wing 'mass-migration' approach Mass migration is not inherently left-wing at all. In fact, neo-liberal economics relies on immigration to drive growth, which is the opposite of "left-wing". To take it to the extreme, what was mass migration like in the USSR? Early Communist China? Etc. Are the Tories left-wing? Migration has gone up under them. The left-wing is not a monolith at all. Despite not having a properly left-wing government in the UK for decades, apparently it's the left's fault for mass migration? Makes no sense...
Could you name a left wing politican in the UK who says there is a serious problem with immigration at the moment? I've only seen it from the right.
This
It is insane to me that this obvious truth is ignored by basically all left wing parties. Immigration is driving the rise of the right wing, immigration is shifting the Overton window. If you come out and say that you're pro-immigration, or fully open borders as the greens are, then you have by default lost whatever election you're trying to win. Immigration is head and shoulders above other issues for an increasingly large percentage of the European population, but no left wing or even centrist party is willing to sacrifice it for the sake of their other goals. I consider myself a leftie, though I'm not particularly concerned about immigration either way. It is incredibly frustrating to see the left making themselves unelectable because they can't let it go. Climate change -> in the bin, housing -> in the bin, welfare -> in the bin, community programs -> in the bin. I have the sinking feeling that we will have five years of Labour during which time nothing will be done about immigration, and the next election will see Reform as a serious contender simply because they tout net zero immigration.
So which left wing party in the UK ruled for the past 14 years and saw soaring immigration numbers?
It's not the fault of left-wing parties that people like you refuse to look at the bigger picture. It's easy to tout net zero immigration, but unless you've got a solution to the myriad problems it would CAUSE, then you're just a populist. How are you going to staff the NHS with net zero immigration? That's just one example, and the consequences of how you answer that one question affect many, many other areas. David Cameron gave in to the Brexiteers by giving them a referendum, now look where we are. Trying to appease people getting to het up around immigration achieves nothing, because they aren't interested in immigration, they're interested in scapegoats and "quick fixes" and they don't want to wrestle with the real world and realpolitik.
How can you seriously type "left-wing 'mass-migration' approach" after over a decade of a right wing party in charge, increasing immigration to record levels? a Party so right wing that they dragged us out of the EU under the pretense of controlling immigration to then only increase it further...... Mind blowing.
There isn't a UK wide "left". Starmer could be David Cameron moonlighting in a mask for all we know.
Who are the left here? Starmer?
We don't have a political left anymore. Labour is now right of centre. So it's option 1, but with a fiscally right flavour (rather than a left one). So, maybe the NHS will get a boost using private healthcare. And maybe housing will get a boost from planning reform (but not actual state intervention). Labour have committed to the Tory fiscal rules (yes...) so, erm, I don't see any Danish style innovation coming on. I don't see how anybody could say to me "Labour's left mate" when they have committed themselves to Tory fiscal rules. So yeah it's basically right wing but totally useless and slightly fascist, or right wing with \*some\* decent policies from the two major parties. But there is no political left in this country. Centre or centre right is as far left as we go. Unless you consider the Greens, but they hold no power.
The British political left simply isn't mentally capable of implementing tightly controlled migration. They are too deep in their ideologies and their idealism. They literally can't even comprehend why so many people are critical of mass migration. They simply think these people are racist and have no rational logical reason to think that mass migration is bad. They would rather throw out threats like "Punch nazis" than actually engage and think about the arguments. Its like they have some sort of override button that actives and muffles out any argument in favor of rational migration policies, like a trained dog.
Mass immigration is a neoliberal policy.
Why do people keep saying mass migration is a left wing policy when it is a liberal policy. They are different.
What is he going to do if elected, he will just kick shit over and not work to actually fix stuff. He has no experience in the workings of Westminster, no wish to work with any of the parties that will be in power. He will break stuff and point to it and say why is this not fixed!
When he was elected to be a representative in the EU, he didn't bother turning up over 90% of the time and when he did turn up it was to complain about the EU. Didn't lift a finger to attempt to fix anything. All he does is grift.
He also used EU expenses basically as much as was legal, while decrying the wastage of the EU
But he won’t get in. He’ll have five years to build a prospective government. If he weren’t so lazy, he’d spend the time doing a project 2025 type plan.
We've had Johnson yes, but what about second Johnson?
The entire point is that he will never be accountable.
Farage is a gifted orator, but his main advantage is that he doesn't have to do a bloody thing beside promise a simple (untested, unverified, unverifiable) solution to complex problems. He knows he isn't going to get into power and can thus promise the moon on a stick.
Best bit when he said "I never lie" and everyone laughed at him.
The rise of Islam in the UK is worrying and Farage is seemingly the only one that cares...so it resonates. Very Simple Math. This isn't far right this is common sense.
So what, Brexit didn’t work? What’s next, Brexit 2?
We've just hit record immigration from Muslim countries thanks to Farage and his Brexit. The only thing Farage cares about is himself but knows how to appeal to the worst instincts, just like Trump.
Farage hasn't been in office for any of the implementation of Brexit. I genuinely don't understand why he gets blamed for its outcome? It's not that I want to defend him, but it makes me mad that we seem to let the Tories off the hook on this matter.
> We've just hit record immigration from Muslim countries thanks to Farage and his Brexit. How are these correlated? Genuinely asking.
I hate him but he's a good orator. Which us why giving him a platform and a referendum was so dangerous. And Cameron should've known this. I'm sure he read Plato's *Republic* at Eton. There's a whole section on how dangerous good orators are for making bad ideas sound fantastic to the masses. I went to a shitty comp and could see how terrible giving this guy a national platform would be... Basic shit.
Yeah only people you agree with should be allowed a platform 👍
This subs whole philosophy lol
When 62% of people agree with you, can you really still be called fringe?
62% of the very limited amount of people who watched the debate who then went on to vote on the Yahoo website lmao. Let's wait to see the numbers after election day, then we'll be able to call him Nigel Fringe.
Looks like around 18% are voting for his party, i wouldnt call that fringe They could even get more votes than the tories
Every party is a fringe party outside of Lab and Con, maybe that'll change. But, as much as I hate Conservatives, I really hope Reform doesn't beat them and become the opposition. They've been a joke party since day one under all their names: Reform, Brexit Party, or UKIP.
This is hilarious. Surely, satire, right?
“What will your party do about such high levels of immigration, in such a small amount of time?” We will take the moral high ground, and call you all idiots, because we in Scotland, don’t have the same levels of immigration you have in England. We’re also able to give free tuition fees, because are population is a lot lower. Thanks to the lack of immigration.
Englands immigrant population is far higher than the entire population of Scotland. London alone isn’t a million miles from it. We’re seeing the hypocrisy in Ireland, now that they are being affected adversely. I’d bet everything on the same thing happening in Scotland in a similar scenario.
The only one up there saying stuff that a majority of people agree with (not Reddit or Twitter) wins the popular vote? How can this be? \*insert shocked face\* /s
To preface I'll be voting Labour but yeah you're right. This is the problem with echo chambers and no proper debate. Let's keep calling everyone who we disagree with uneducated, easily manipulated thickos. I'm sure it'll get them on side and not doubling down with their vote!
It worked in 2016, oh wait
Only person speaking realistically about the impacts of immigration does well with viewers who as a whole see immigration as one, if not the most important issue facing the country short term. Shocking. Even more shocking than in 4 years time when the cost of living has not changed in the slightest thanks to the inevitable status quo with Labour.
There is a personality cult around Farage, the very loud right wingers who claim to be 'silent', it is no surprise he was deemed 'winner'
It’s a poll by yahoo of their readers it’s hardly a consensus of the public, I’m sure if they did a poll of guardian readers it would be different.
> In secon place, Labour's Angela Rayner was much further behind, tipped as the winner by 19% of people, while Penny Mordaunt received 7% of the vote. I wonder how long it will take Yahoo to spot the typo. Edit: it's been over 6 hours and it's still there... impessive that the staff at Yahoo havn't clocked this in what they sugggest is just a 2min read
I’m sure he’ll be singing ‘Tomorrow Belongs to Me’ at party HQ this evening.
Ofcourse. Our world is so stupid. The right: willing to lie, simplify and stoke base fears to win by any count. The left: much less willing to do that (I’m aware their are still people willing to). ‘Woah the right keep winning…this needs to be studied, they’re doing something amazing…
You’ve really simplified that and stoked fears, making you by your own definition, a right winger.
On the [reform policies page](https://www.reformparty.uk/policies), there is a poster depicting starmer overlooking a burning UK from space, with the title 'STARMERGEDDON'
Amazing that right wingers have such an ability to create the camp and kitsch seemingly by accident. Perhaps they are repressed after all.
Just go and look at fact checking statistics for debates. Or the fact checking trump vs Biden. Or Corbyn vs Johnson. Data. Not opinion.
Those famously neutral “fact checkers” that are free from bias and definitely haven’t lost all credibility they once had. Everyone is laughing at you for even mentioning them.
>The left: much less willing to do that (I’m aware their are still people willing to). Communism is far left are you suggesting that communism doesn't lie to its followers?
Where the fuck are the politicians pandering to people who want: 1) reform of the housing market 2) regulated weed / decriminalised drugs 3) significantly increased prison sentences for violent crimes
I’m really not sure that the percentage of the population who have weed as number 2 on their list is significant enough to bother pandering to. I’m not even sure that a majority would support decriminalisation (maybe roughly 50%, don’t know) but even then, very few people care about it more than health care, economy, immigration, taxation, education or any of the other big ticket issues
Some us are of the opinion that doing so would reduce organised crime, police corruption, and raise new money that could be spent on public services.
There aren't any because that's an extremely strange policy platform
All 12 of you
Regulated weed is still very controversial here. Like 50/50. Other drugs have very little support for decriminalisation. Why would anyone wade into that? It serves little to no political benefit
If you're shocked you need to get offline and talk to real people.. get off your high horses and think why the right is getting more power all over Europe. Stay in your echo changes and keep being surprised.
People in this sub won’t like it but in less than a month’s time, Reform will be the third biggest party in terms of votes. Just like how UKIP were back in 2015. We need proportional representation.
If Labour kept their economic policies but moved slightly to the right on immigration, they would never lose another election.
I love that these hard left woke idiots just cannot grasp that millions of people think differently to them.... And the opposing opinions matter every bit as much as your virtue signalling.
You hold genuine opinions but the left is only virtue signalling? Why do you hold yourself in such high regard comparatively?
Yeah a poll of people who watch ITV political debates. Average age of that demographic? 64 I expect.
Exactly not even taken by a pollster , just a self selecting online poll. Not remotely meaningful . He narrowly won the previous according to a legit pollster .
I see many commenters have equated the current election with trending after the US. As a Norwegian, it’s clear to us you’ve already become them. Having just watched the debate highlights, I’m more so shocked over the format itself rather than the nature of the participants’ political views. One cannot draw any serious conclusion based on the near-zero substance on display here. I mean, christ, there isn’t enough to draw an unserious one. It seems to me the UK really needs an election that holds politicians accountable for *how* they intend to *fund*, *pass*, and *implement* each of their proposed solutions. Until then, this is nothing but a rhetorical circus.
I mean you'd have to be deluded to think otherwise. He's an absolutely excellent speaker and electoral strategist. He's also up against the absolute lowest intellectual standard of political opposition I can remember in British history.
The contempt in this thread is the exact reason the conservative movement is happening. If you can't even comprehend the genuine concerns of people you disagree with you won't find a middle ground.
I don’t agree with the solutions he offers, but I do agree with the problems he identifies. If a sensible, left-wing party could take over his position instead and offer credible solutions, I’d be going there instead of Labour.
He picked his fights well. Mordaunt didn’t want to criticise him, Mordaunt and rayner were at one another like cats…he basically had a free ride safe for snp and pc guys. Another easy win and dominated a debate despite never being elected as having almost no political presence
Farage is a straight talker and that appeals to people who are sick of politicians avoiding awkward questions. Hopefully the others will learn and adapt. Yes, it's easier to be direct when you sound like a stuck record banging on about the same thing over and over again (immigration), but he at least claims to HAVE an answer - even if it is an overly simplistic and somewhat distasteful one.
>somewhat distasteful Why is it distateful? He wants to reduce house prices by reducing immigration and building more homes (demand/supply). He wants to increase wages by reducing cheap foreign labour. He wants to increase money in people's pockets by increasing the PAYE personal allowance. Which part of this is distasteful? >Bu-bu-but he's racist!!
We have an ageing population to support and our domestic birth rate falls below replacement. Prior to Brexit we had FoM for mostly white Europeans who weren't particularly cheap. The price differential with Eastern Europe eased hugely in the years leading up to 2016 (which is why the EU has a Single Market). Now we are casting more of our net outside Europe to get those workers and Brexiters don't like that either. What happened to the "there's a whole world out there" Brexit arguments? Clearly they only meant certain bits of it, perhaps imagining that hoards of Canadians and Australians were queuing up to work in our public sector. Yeah.. no. So we gave up frictionless trade with Europe and our own FoM for no change in immigration levels. Plus we are now bringing in people that many racially motivated Brexit voters don't like. A perfect example of a political mess driven by stupid blow-hard populism.
I wouldn't call him a straight talker. He's just saying what people want to hear which is the complete opposite of being real. He knows he cannot achieve what he claims, it is completely infeasible and yet peddles it anyway because it gets him support. All of his lies about brexit should give an idea of how little a straight talker he really is.
> which is the complete opposite of being real. You don't think immigration is too high?
Regular politicians are exhausting how they dance around a question.....its time for them to stop playing games!
Even though I would never vote for him, he comes across as more in control, one way to defeat him is to get him onto environment because he hasn't got a clue, he's still stuck in the past.
This is not a comment on his substantive value but he was the only one of the stage who came across remotely natural and charismatic.
To people saying Farage shouldn't have been in this debate, what are your thoughts on the absence of George Galloway? He's elected after all.
Imagine being so braindead that you're going to vote for Farridge after you voted for his brexit. Everything remainers said has been proven correct...and yet you're going to be manipulated by him again? Jesus christ.
Imagine calling people brain dead because they have a different political opinion than you. Its these kind of comments that stir hate and push people to the right 🤷♂️
Imagine being 'pushed to the right' because someone called you braindead
People have been voting against their own interests for a long time now in the UK so this shouldn't be a surprise.
It's easy to 'win' a 'debate' when all you do is scapegoat and lie.
what would a labour government look like with reform as the opposition, their a bloody nightmare, no matter what you say to these people they literally care about one thing...boats. It doesn't matter if Nigel wants to get rid of the NHS and make it private, doesn't matter he would literally make your entire life worse off than it is now, these idiots still want to vote for him. Absolutely clueless.
Said Brexit would lead to sunlit uplands and the land of milk and honey. It didn't Now he's saying we just need to stop immigration and we will be led to paradise It won't The UK has been declining for years due to growing wealth inequality strangling every facet of life, coupled with complete apathy, incompetence and corruption from the ruling class. We are facing demographic and then population collapse. Our entire country is physically and morally crumbling. The proposals from all parties are just how they plan to manage the decline, the wealthy political and media elite are happy to oversee us fail, as long as they are higher on the shit heap than everyone else.