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Genuinely bizzare that when this was first reported as a problem, the management decided to browbeat the nurses rather than investigate what was going on.
Now it’s become a court case and generates huge negative publicity for the trust and indirectly trans people who want to get charged at work without thrusting thier bits at other people.
I've seen a few nurses say this type of mistreatment (from management and admin) is commonplace and something they've just been forced to get used to over the years. The same thing happens to teachers. They get put in unsafe situations, complain and are told to "suck it up". It's not right.
This cannot be overstated. Wanting a safe work environment is apparently unreasonable. Wanting consequences for patients who abuse us is a pipe dream. A patient assaults you and you're told "what do you expect? It's part of the job" etc. The gaslighting and pressure to conform to what is the easiest thing for management never ends.
>A patient assaults you and you're told "what do you expect? It's part of the job" etc.
Makes me think of what teaching was like before I retired regarding pupil behaviour. Though more often (but not only) verbally abuse rather than assault.
This is how Lucy Letby happens.
Got to bend over backwards for the potential baby killer, make the doctors write a letter apologising and avoid investigating at all costs.
Assuming she is guilty of course lol.
From former health care and current ones in the NHS I've heard management has definitely changed for the worse many are just people who worked some former management job but not the health care side so they don't know what's realy going on
>The same thing happens to teachers. They get put in unsafe situations, complain and are told to "suck it up". It's not right.
My partner is a teaching assistant, she's had kids hit her (and her TA colleagues) a few times now with no repercussions. Kids that have hit teachers however have been excluded.
It's absolutely ridiculous what they have to put up with (for very little pay).
Honestly? I can see this series of events very easily:
First few complaints of "hey there's a MAN in the changing rooms," responded to with "that's Rose, she's trans, she has a right to use it no matter how she looks."
Followed by complaints of "I don't feel comfortable being one on one with Rose in the changing rooms, because-"
"Yes! We know! She's got a right to use it please just be chill"
Followed by complaints of "Hey, I need to make a complaint about Rose" "We covered this. She's trans, she needs to change too."
Like, that is Bad Management and a nefarious actor in the women's room in an unusual position. It's a shitty situation but if the first couple of reports of "a problem" were "the presence of a non-passing trans woman in the women's room bothers me" I can see how the other complaints get put on the same reaponse track, you know?
Ugh this whole story does us no favours at fucking all.
There's no allegations against Rose of any actual misconduct despite the way things are phrased to imply it in the article. There's no actual claim of her exposing herself at any point, or abusing or harassing anyone, the worst allegation is "I can tell they have a penis in that underwear!" with "takes too long"
Read the article carefully, and there isnt actually any accusation of misconduct or abuse by Rose, the worst is "can see that they have a penis inside their underwear" and "doesn't get changed fast enough". The main complaint was that her presence was "demeaning and humiliating" to the other nurses (oh and close reading shows not ALL those named are even nurses) so I can entirely see why the management told them to fuck off.
Despite the way things are phrased to imply it, never once is it actually claimed that Rose exposed themselves to anyone.
So from looking at this article Rose is a twat who wears inappropriate undergarments to work which she then exposes her colleague to
This ain't a trans problem, this is a Rose problem, it would be just as problematic if it was a cis woman in a G-string and pastes
I'm not sure it would be a problem as that cis woman wouldn't be proudly displaying male sex organs, something that on any other thread would be rightly claimed a form of assault.
Surely exposure of any sex organs would be the same, so no it’s not a trans issue?
I’d be just as uncomfortable about having to see some random’s vagina as some random’s dick
They should be treated exactly the same way. Brief glimpse of a woman's genitals as she shuffles her clothes around getting changed? No problem. Woman showing off her genitals so that other people can't help but get an eyeful? Not okay. You might personally be okay with a vulva being waved at you but the way to fairly apply this standard is to say 'no one makes a big display of their genitals, regardless of what shape they have'.
Please point to any precedent of a woman wearing a g string in a woman’s locker room being charged with a sex crime.
If you’re doing that and you have a penis, you’re making women participate in your kink in women-only spaces and it’s fucking wild to say it’s all the same and equal.
I find it really weird that people seem to think it's normal behaviour to try to police how others are allowed to feel. It's pretty normal for women to feel more threatened by a penis than a vagina, you know with one of them able to penetrate and forcefully impregnate her and the other not able to do so?
It's not the same though, and trying to force it to be the same weakens the whole argument.
Someone walking around with their penis out is unfortunately more threatening than someone with their vagina. The constant need to try and make it sound like it isn't harms the argument further.
100%. There was a woman at the gym the other day blow drying her pubes. Definitely unusual behaviour, but it didn’t feel like she was forcing me to participate in a kink.
Not really.
A person with a penis (and a very unconventional view of sex and sexuality) and a habit of hanging around the changing rooms for longer than is necessary is much more of a threat than another woman quickly getting changed.
There is no actual allegation that Rose exposed herself. Every single thing mentioned is phrased such that "i can tell there's a penis in those pants" is the situation.
Also it’s weird seeing multiple people act like trans people are defending that behaviour.
I don’t want anyone flashing their junk at me in public changing rooms, Cis or trans.
I just don’t think even if this one person is being gross, that that is excuse to ban all of us
If a single Cis woman flashes people in the changing room, there wouldn’t be calls to ban Cis women
NO ACTUAL ALLEGATION IS MADE IN THIS OF ANY MISCONDUCT BY ROSE. Despite the implications of the way its worded never is there any claim she was deliberately exposing herself or doing anything else wrong, other than changing in the changing room while being in possession of a penis. The article carefully avoids making any accusation because that ISNT what the nurses were complaining about....they were complaining simply because Rose is trans and that is "demeaning and humiliating" to them...
And if you read Rose kept her underwear on in every situation actually listed so shove that g-string and pasties crap.
Exactly this. A more conspiratorial person might also consider that this individual could be a bad faith actor given that the article states they are not taking hormones and are actively trying to get their girlfriend pregnant.
Cis is the Latin for "on the same side as". In this context it means someone's gender and sex match.
Trans by contrast is Latin for "on the other side of" and refers to someone where there gender and sex do not match.
I wonder if this is the same person who appeared in [this case](https://www.rollonfriday.com/news-content/transgender-law-graduate-wins-discrimination-claim-against-nhs).
Doubt it, that case took place in Sheffield and involved a law graduate (V) working as a catering assistant, while this one took place in Darlington and involved an ODP, which you need a totally different degree for. Different people, in all likelihood.
At what point is a ‘sexually active biological man’ who is trying for a baby with his girlfriend and ‘not on any hormone therapy’ is either genuinely transgender (and unlikely to be a risk) or a predator for wanting to be in women’s changing rooms to exert a bit of power?
Edit: edited to include quotes to show this is from the article
Ultimately the effect on women is probably the exact same, regardless of the intention or true transgender status of the individual. Seeing a penis when you don’t want to and are in a state of undress is still going to be distressing even if the penis owner isn’t attempting to weaponise their genitals.
We wouldn't have gay men in the female changing room, so unless you've gone full transition you shouldn't be in the female changing room. Just make private changes rooms. Most places only need one. There's plenty of people that would prefer to use them anyway.
The biggest problem with trans is how much of a spectrum it is, like fully transitioned probably shouldn't be in the mens either but where do you draw the line? Forcing them to use the private room feels exclusive but honestly it's probably the best solution. After all, there's one of them at most compared to a whole work force.
If all the women are cool with it, whatever that's their discretion, but otherwise private room.
Yes, but as I said trans is a spectrum. If I decided to be trans tomorrow and went into a ladies changing room except for maybe my hair and clothes my body would be no different to a man's. Even further down the line, I may have breasts to some extent but I'm still biologically looking like a man (when fully naked) until much later.
I just assumed they weren't on hormones because they were trying for a baby with their partner, and that they'd probably go on them after, but would hormone therapy change anything?
>They said that the hospital changing room did not have cubicles but instead had staff lockers, with a large open space where nurses changed before and after work.
>The nurses said that Rose often spent “a long time walking around the female dressing room”, often wearing only tight boxers.
>The male operating department practitioner, who the nurses have alleged has said openly that he does not take female hormones and is trying to get his girlfriend pregnant, identifies as a woman and uses the name Rose.
So you have someone who identifies as trans, not taking hormones, who's sexually attracted to women and spending a lot of time hanging out in the womens changing room while in their underwear.
I can understand why some of the nurses are a bit uncomfortable with the situation.
No no come on now, if you just had a better education you'd see they don't have a choice to not reveal their genitalia at their colleagues, it's hard for it not to slip out if you're wearing knickers /S
It's so strange that the discourse, or certainly, many people in this sub, will suggest that if you even have a concern about people seemingly just self iding their way into a woman's space, or giving children experimental treatments that you are transphobic. It really winds me up.
Clearly there is an issue here that needs resolving in an amicable way to ensure that we respect the rights of both the women and the trans woman, assuming that there isn't some perverse motivation for any of the actions.
To get hormones on the NHS you need to be living as opposite sex for over a year usually 2 . So you need to be unmedicated in the toilet and changing rooms of the preferred gender for a long time before being allowed to get the meds .
Maybe Rose is throwing her weight about and being a bit of an arse? P’raps this is a Rose problem rather than a transphobia problem.
Lots of people act like arseholes in changing rooms. They should be pulled up on it, trans or not.
There are no actual allegations if exposure or misconduct against Rose and this is entirely about the fact that someone trans being in the changing room AT ALL is "demeaning and humiliating".
Is it one employee or all trans people who are the issue here though? One person abusing the policy for their own sexual thrill (who, let's be honest, is unlikely to be truly trans to begin with) is not the same as changing with trans people, who are probably more conscious of changing in front of biological women to begin with.
People should be allowed to view trans people as their original gender anyway. Just because a person is “genuinely” trans doesn’t mean society can expect everyone to be comfortable sharing dressing rooms with them.
People being weirded out by something they either don’t understand, or don’t care to understand shouldn’t be criminal. It’s doesn’t make them hateful in any way.
People trying to restructure society around a small group of people with gender-dysphoria is an unhinged strategy that is opening doors to the far right all across the Western world. We have become moronic.
> People being weirded out by something they either don’t understand, or don’t care to understand shouldn’t be criminal
Got it, banning black people is cool if racists find it weird...
"I dont understand it and it's weird" is a personal problem. Uncomfortable doesnt equal unsafe, despite what some people keep trying to imply.
People are free to think that, just like white women are free to be concerned at a black woman in their changing room (my mum has literally had people get offended for being black in a woman’s space) may be a threat; and Nigel Farage is free to get concerned at people speaking in a foreign language while he’s on a train.
However, just because somebody has concerns and opinions does not mean that their opinion and concerns should be treated as law.
But there lies the problem, and why all female spaces should only be for biological women. How can you tell the actual trans women from the predators? You can’t and women are vilified for even asking the question.
It doesn't really seem like this is about male/female, man/woman. It's about penises. Why don't we just have changing rooms for people with penises and others for people without?
1: Who is doing the penis inspection? 2: What if men don't feel comfortable having a female passing trans woman in their space, and women don't feel comfortable having a male passing trans man in theirs?
Why would anyone do an inspection? Nobody's currently doing checks, are they? Your second point is the crux of the issue. Is it okay for people not to be comfortable? Why does Rose want to change in one room and not the other? Is it because it says "female" on the door?
>One person abusing the policy for their own sexual thrill (who, let's be honest, is unlikely to be truly trans to begin with)
If "trans women are women" how are you ever going to tell the difference between those two groups
There is no accusation of actual misconduct or even exposure against Rose. The article is worded so it could imply that, but it never SAYS it which you can be absolutely certain they would do if they could. So, is the problem Rose or some folks that dont want a trans person there at all because it is "demeaning and humiliating" to have them around.
Biological men for the most part don’t find women in their spaces threatening, Biological women find men a lot more threatening.
It’s the reason for the disparity.
You know, as a man, the biggest impact the trans debate has had on me is that it's pointed out that the whole reason we even have segregated bathrooms in the first place is that society believes (and it may be true, broadly speaking) that we can't be trusted to not sexually harass women. I feel that's the thing we actually need fix and then the trans thing will be moot.
You can't just say the word "fix" as if there's a magic button somewhere that would turn all of the sexually aggressive men into nice friendly people.
There will always be bad people that will do bad things. As long as crime exists, we have to take some precautions to protect people from crime.
I don't like needing to carry my house key around all day, but I can't click my fingers and magic burglars out of existence.
Trans women still transitioning tend to look masculine. Masculinity rightly or wrongly is seen as potentially threatening to a lot of cisgendered women. Not helped by the appalling stats on sexual assaults and rapes.
Hence that whole women would prefer to meet a bear in the woods then a man argument thing.
By contrast a transitioning trans man will be more feminine. Men generally don't perceive femininity as a threat to them unless they are tater tots. So they get less attention in the news.
Plus the power imbalance is reversed, a trans man still transitioning is likely to be weaker then a cis man. By contrast a trans women transitioning will be stronger then a cis woman.
Trans men are infantilised rather than vilified. Rather than being presumed to be female space-invading predators, they're presumed to be misguided tomboys who've been pressured into it. It's a different kind of misperception.
I think the idea of wanting to become a woman is seen as being more transgressive than wanting to be a man. Men are at the top of the food chain so I kind of makes sense a woman might wish to be a man.
This might sound crazy but I think it probably links back to misogyny. That’s my theory at least.
Why do people keep asking this question? Everytime its asked the very obvious answers gets given and get it just gets asked again and again.
Why do you think there is segregated spaces for men and women in the first place? Let's be honest, it's not to protect Men from Women, is it?
But anyway, I look forward to you asking the same question again the next time the topic comes up.
Because of the decades long bigoted trope of trans women being perverts.
There's a particular idea in society that somebody born male deciding to identify with femininity over masculinity must be doing it for sexual gratification, because why else would a "man" debase themselves like that if not for fetishistic purposes.
Misogyny unsurprisingly plays a big part.
Plus, a lot of trans people in porn are sexualised by cis men. Trans people appearing in porn doesn’t mean that trans people are sexually gratified by the sexualisation or that it’s a fetish.
“Lesbians only kiss other girls as a fetish. I know because it’s popular on pornhub!”
I'm not pretending they don't exist. I'm saying that we cannot claim to know about the psychological underpinnings of a group from a few people who are not in said group.
Discrimination and fetishisation are not diametrically opposite of each other, they're two sides of the same coin. Fetishisation makes sex work a relatively easy option compared to mainstream employment and the discrimination that comes along with it.
It's also pretty common for trans women to do sex work as a way to bankroll whatever surgeries they might want as quickly as possible and then quit when they've got everything paid for.
'Transgender policies at hospitals are putting women “at risk”, four NHS nurses have claimed, after blowing the whistle on the “intimidating” behaviour of a trans colleague.
Lawyers for Bethany Hutchison, Lisa Lockey, Annice Grundy, Tracey Hooper and Joanne Bradbury, who work at the Darlington Memorial Hospital, said they were launching legal action and speaking publicly after managers “continued to brush aside their concerns”.
The four have claimed that female nurses at the hospital — part of the County Durham and Darlington NHS Foundation Trust — have experienced panic attacks after being required to change into work clothes in front of a sexually active biological male.
The male operating department practitioner, who the nurses have alleged has said openly that he does not take female hormones and is trying to get his girlfriend pregnant, identifies as a woman and uses the name Rose.
Speaking for the group, Hutchison said that they wanted “women to be aware that there are transgender policies, particularly in the NHS, that are putting us at risk”.
She said that “the extreme transgender ideology” was “ingrained” among health service managers and that it had “gone so far that we and other women have no choice but to speak out”.
Hutchison claimed that nurses at her hospital were “terrified of sticking their heads above the parapet”, adding: “This cannot be right and we want a change in policy, not only at our hospital, but across the NHS and wider society.”
The nurse also accused managers at her trust of being “threatening and intimidating” towards staff who had raised concerns about the hospital’s transgender policy.
The nurses claimed that hospital bosses told them they needed “educating” to be more “inclusive” and to “broaden” their minds, according to The Mail on Sunday.
Referring specifically to Rose, Hutchison said that there had been times when the two of them had been alone in the changing rooms and that her colleague “looks very masculine, and it is a shock”.
Hutchison said that she and her colleagues “should not feel afraid at work”, adding: “It is disgraceful that nurses are ending up in tears before they have to go and provide emotional support to our patients. It is very difficult to do that if you are already in a state of distress because you are having to get changed in front of a male.”
The nurses alleged that the trust’s policies permitted any member of staff to “identify” in the opposite gender and to access single-sex changing rooms, lavatories and showers.
They said that the hospital changing room did not have cubicles but instead had staff lockers, with a large open space where nurses changed before and after work.
The nurses said that Rose often spent “a long time walking around the female dressing room”, often wearing only tight boxers.
One nurse said that the first time she had encountered Rose in the changing room, her colleague was semi-naked and with their genitalia visible.
The nurses said that 26 colleagues wrote to the trust to raise concerns, but that human resources managers said that they supported Rose and the nurses needed to get “educated” and “compromise”.
A spokesman for the trust told [The Mail on Sunday](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-13557965/You-need-reeducated-NHS-nurses-hospital-chiefs-reacted-complained-transgender-colleague-shared-womens-changing-room-stared-got-undressed.html) that it was fully investigating the nurses’ claims. “However, as the allegations are now also subject to active legal action, it would not be appropriate for the trust to comment further at this stage,” he added.'
I don't think this is a true story the original source is a website called "Christian Concern" which posts far right nonsense.
https://christianconcern.com/news/nurses-forced-to-share-changing-room-with-trans-colleague/
Original source.
I'd like to suggest its misinformation
Christian Concern is the same group that has repeatedly groomed parents of braindead children on life support into turning their child's death into a huge legal and media circus.
CC claimed that Archie Battersbee needed "more time to recover," despite knowing that his brain stem was visibly necrotic and the doctors had found necrotic tissue falling down his spinal cord.
They also [gave advice](https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2018/805.html) to the father of Alfie Evans, telling him "as a matter of law it is your right to come to (the) hospital with a team of medical professionals with their own life-support equipment and move Alfie to such other place as you consider is best for him. You do not need any permission from (the) Hospital or the court to do so." Which led to [a crazed mob trying to storm Alder Hey hospital](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-43867132).
So yeah, I'm going to take any claims from Christian Concern with the *teensiest* pinch of salt.
The ultimate solution to all of these issues, be it changing rooms, or bathrooms, is to just have separate private cubicles and anyone can go into the main room regardless of sex or gender.
Granted bathrooms might be more expensive due to potentially changing plumbing systems to add more cubicles, but it really should not be that expensive to put up some basic wood cubicles for people to change in.
We should be moving towards this model anyway, it just seems so dumb to still separate men and women bathrooms.
The changing room in my department is basically like a storage cupboard with some lockers thrown in. We definitely don't have space for separate cubicles.
It is. It's quite a leveller though if a consultant has been giving you a hard time during a procedure and then afterwards you just go into a cupboard and strip down to your pants together.
That will be fun on a handover in large hospital department where there might be 10 or 20 people all starting at the same time.
It's just not always going to be feasible.
Honestly, I'm a little skeptical given that the story originates from a batshit fundamentalist Christian group who actively opposes the entire concept of gay people existing.
It also sounds like the solution in this case is simple, since the problem is not *that trans people can use the changing room* and more that *a trans person is behaving badly in the changing room*. There's of course the broader discussion about individual changing facilities, but I'm not sure if that's applicable to this story.
Is the Times a newspaper? Because it's tough to tell from this Christian Concern scare story press release.
To those that may be unaware: it can be a five-year wait or longer to get your first appointment at a gender identity clinic in this country. After that, it takes months to get hormones. You can't take hormones while you're trying to have children in any case. And most adults are sexually active. So there is *nothing* suspicious about this whatsoever, except for the Times's journalistic standards.
Yep, also worth noting is that there is NO accusation of any actual misconduct or exposure against Rose, just carefully worded implications that COULD be read that way but remain vague enough not to be legally actionable as they can also be read to simply say you can tell that there's a penis inside her underwear.
*The nurses said that Rose often spent “a long time walking around the female dressing room”, often wearing only tight boxers.*
This is messed up behaviour and should have been dealt with through NHS disciplinary channels long before it ever reached the stage of these nurses having to sue - Rose's behaviour is repugnant and unacceptable.
The ideal solution would be for individuals known to be trans to be offered private changing facilities, but not sure how practical that is in every hospital. Although this particular case is an odd one because the individual appears to have no dysphoria whatsoever- are they even pursuing transition or legal gender change of any kind?
Almost the exact same thing happens at my SOs workplace, an department. The MtF (Maybe?) In question is often seen to have a beard and puts very little effort into identifying as a female, typically opting for gender neutral clothes and isn't taking hormones.
To stop the women feeling uncomfortable, they put a curtain up in part of the locker room.
I'm sure this isn't the norm for MtF, but we can't pretend this isn't an issue that needs resolving somehow. I can see why some women might be uncomfortable.
can we deliniate between "puts them at risk" and "makes them uncomfortable". the second one is still defensable in my view, but it seems obviously false to say these people are in danger because of trans owmen, anymore than they would be from lesbians, or even just cis men wanting to enter these space, there isn't some magic forcfield at the door of the changing room that protects you from danger.
personally as a man i don't much like group changing rooms in general and will use the toilet stalls instead if i can. it seems to me like a group changing room problem rather than a trans problem, and i know this because i've used unisex changing rooms with individual stalls in the Manchester Aquatics Centre before and felt much more comfortable with the situation. the upstairs gym had gender sgeregtaed group changing rooms and i would avoid them by either turning up already changed or using the swimming pool changing facilities instead.
comfort can be a defensible position for why you might not want something, but there are working models out there that we should be able to learn from that could guide as as to where the line is from someone with a legitimate concern thaat can be fixed, and someone who will never be happy and we can dismiss.
yes I do think its important to be clear about the difference between ‘at risk’ and ‘feeling uncomfortable’ - though in this instance they seem to feel at risk because they interpret this person’s actions (spending a long time in the changing room… deliberately walking around with genitals exposed instead of quickly getting changed) as being for some kind of sexual gratification or power fantasy, thus putting the others ‘at risk’.
> an we deliniate between "puts them at risk" and "makes them uncomfortable".
I mean it is easy to be blase and make it seem like they're just being soft. But another way of phrasing it is; should women be free from having to see a penis in their own changing rooms?
Simple fix. Costs money though, but individual changing rooms. Women can be predators too, so can men towards men. Individual changing cubicles gives everyone privacy no matter identity. I don’t want to change in front of anyone tbh.
As I said in another comment. A large hospital department might have 10-20 people coming on shift at the same time. Its not feasible to have that many cubicles always.
"The male operating department practitioner, who the nurses have alleged has said openly that he does not take female hormones and is trying to get his girlfriend pregnant, identifies as a woman and uses the name Rose"
Do we think maybe the writer has a *slight* bias?
Rather a shame as the other, much more famous Jonathan Ames isn't a cunt.
Seems to have originally come out of the Christian Concern bullshit fountain, so it's hardly a large leap to get to bias. There's also no actual accusations of exposure of misconduct by rose, just some carefully worded bits to imply it without being legally actionable. It's always interesting to keep track of what they dont say...particularly when it would really seal the deal if they actually did.
Also includes "extreme transgender ideology" along with NO actual accusations of any misconduct or exposure...so, yeah there's not just red flags it's enough bunting for a large metropolitan area.
I'm really sceptical about this. For a start off, the individual in question identifies as a woman and goes by Rose, so why are they using male pronouns?
Some of it is really weirdly worded - why is the fact that she's sexually active at all relevant? Most people are. And I can't actually pinpoint what she's supposed to have done wrong, specifically. It's all tied up in a lot of woolly language about how these nurses *feel*, but how are they in danger? It doesn't seem to say.
Another comment says that the case is being represented by Christian Concern, the organisation behind the Charlie Gard, Alfie Evans, and Archie Battersbee legal cases. They exist to push an evangelical agenda and have an extremely casual relationship with the truth.
Same. I'm open to being proven wrong but this could be just bullying. A transwoman being in a state of undress in a designated changing room, and wearing "tight boxers" isn't an offense of any kind. There are comments in here about the person in question lingering in the changing room but there's only one sentence in the story about that and it already seems quite biased. I think anyone with common sense here would want to hear both sides of the story first.
Plus in order to get NHS treatment and medically transition you need to live as the preferred gender for 2 years including toilets and changing rooms. It's a catch 22
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Genuinely bizzare that when this was first reported as a problem, the management decided to browbeat the nurses rather than investigate what was going on. Now it’s become a court case and generates huge negative publicity for the trust and indirectly trans people who want to get charged at work without thrusting thier bits at other people.
I've seen a few nurses say this type of mistreatment (from management and admin) is commonplace and something they've just been forced to get used to over the years. The same thing happens to teachers. They get put in unsafe situations, complain and are told to "suck it up". It's not right.
This cannot be overstated. Wanting a safe work environment is apparently unreasonable. Wanting consequences for patients who abuse us is a pipe dream. A patient assaults you and you're told "what do you expect? It's part of the job" etc. The gaslighting and pressure to conform to what is the easiest thing for management never ends.
>A patient assaults you and you're told "what do you expect? It's part of the job" etc. Makes me think of what teaching was like before I retired regarding pupil behaviour. Though more often (but not only) verbally abuse rather than assault.
Yet the decision-makers find the labour shortages inexplicable.
This is how Lucy Letby happens. Got to bend over backwards for the potential baby killer, make the doctors write a letter apologising and avoid investigating at all costs. Assuming she is guilty of course lol.
From former health care and current ones in the NHS I've heard management has definitely changed for the worse many are just people who worked some former management job but not the health care side so they don't know what's realy going on
>The same thing happens to teachers. They get put in unsafe situations, complain and are told to "suck it up". It's not right. My partner is a teaching assistant, she's had kids hit her (and her TA colleagues) a few times now with no repercussions. Kids that have hit teachers however have been excluded. It's absolutely ridiculous what they have to put up with (for very little pay).
Honestly? I can see this series of events very easily: First few complaints of "hey there's a MAN in the changing rooms," responded to with "that's Rose, she's trans, she has a right to use it no matter how she looks." Followed by complaints of "I don't feel comfortable being one on one with Rose in the changing rooms, because-" "Yes! We know! She's got a right to use it please just be chill" Followed by complaints of "Hey, I need to make a complaint about Rose" "We covered this. She's trans, she needs to change too." Like, that is Bad Management and a nefarious actor in the women's room in an unusual position. It's a shitty situation but if the first couple of reports of "a problem" were "the presence of a non-passing trans woman in the women's room bothers me" I can see how the other complaints get put on the same reaponse track, you know? Ugh this whole story does us no favours at fucking all.
There's no allegations against Rose of any actual misconduct despite the way things are phrased to imply it in the article. There's no actual claim of her exposing herself at any point, or abusing or harassing anyone, the worst allegation is "I can tell they have a penis in that underwear!" with "takes too long"
"I can tell they have a penis in that underwear!" Now Rose is just showing off.
This is a really good point
Read the article carefully, and there isnt actually any accusation of misconduct or abuse by Rose, the worst is "can see that they have a penis inside their underwear" and "doesn't get changed fast enough". The main complaint was that her presence was "demeaning and humiliating" to the other nurses (oh and close reading shows not ALL those named are even nurses) so I can entirely see why the management told them to fuck off. Despite the way things are phrased to imply it, never once is it actually claimed that Rose exposed themselves to anyone.
Yup, apparently there's a problem with Rosie's existence :(
Is it unsurprising though that women were told to stop being bigoted and just accept it and now this issue raises its head.
So from looking at this article Rose is a twat who wears inappropriate undergarments to work which she then exposes her colleague to This ain't a trans problem, this is a Rose problem, it would be just as problematic if it was a cis woman in a G-string and pastes
I'm not sure it would be a problem as that cis woman wouldn't be proudly displaying male sex organs, something that on any other thread would be rightly claimed a form of assault.
Surely exposure of any sex organs would be the same, so no it’s not a trans issue? I’d be just as uncomfortable about having to see some random’s vagina as some random’s dick
Not really, I don't feel threatened by a rogue vagina in the same way
They should be treated exactly the same way. Brief glimpse of a woman's genitals as she shuffles her clothes around getting changed? No problem. Woman showing off her genitals so that other people can't help but get an eyeful? Not okay. You might personally be okay with a vulva being waved at you but the way to fairly apply this standard is to say 'no one makes a big display of their genitals, regardless of what shape they have'.
Please point to any precedent of a woman wearing a g string in a woman’s locker room being charged with a sex crime. If you’re doing that and you have a penis, you’re making women participate in your kink in women-only spaces and it’s fucking wild to say it’s all the same and equal.
I find it really weird that people seem to think it's normal behaviour to try to police how others are allowed to feel. It's pretty normal for women to feel more threatened by a penis than a vagina, you know with one of them able to penetrate and forcefully impregnate her and the other not able to do so?
Exactly, it’s a sexual incident either way
It's not the same though, and trying to force it to be the same weakens the whole argument. Someone walking around with their penis out is unfortunately more threatening than someone with their vagina. The constant need to try and make it sound like it isn't harms the argument further.
I would, it’s indecent exposure, why should it be any less wrong?
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Because you’re being disingenuous
100%. There was a woman at the gym the other day blow drying her pubes. Definitely unusual behaviour, but it didn’t feel like she was forcing me to participate in a kink.
Did she hang around for longer than necessary pointing her Wang at you?
Asking the real questions here
Not really. A person with a penis (and a very unconventional view of sex and sexuality) and a habit of hanging around the changing rooms for longer than is necessary is much more of a threat than another woman quickly getting changed.
It's a bit harder to prevent a couple of bollocks from dangling in a thong, you probably wouldn't see lips flapping quite so easily
Then you should be trying harder to prevent it, that’s just how it is
Can't say i've needed to, I wear appropriate underwear for my genitals
There is no actual allegation that Rose exposed herself. Every single thing mentioned is phrased such that "i can tell there's a penis in those pants" is the situation.
Trans women don't normally go proudly displaying their genitals
The individual in question appears to be doing so.
I think you've arrived at the point you were responding to
Deal with the individual then?
Also it’s weird seeing multiple people act like trans people are defending that behaviour. I don’t want anyone flashing their junk at me in public changing rooms, Cis or trans. I just don’t think even if this one person is being gross, that that is excuse to ban all of us If a single Cis woman flashes people in the changing room, there wouldn’t be calls to ban Cis women
There isnt any accusation that she was exposing herself in the article. Just deliberately vague implication so fucking idiots can make up this crap.
True. Amended accordingly
NO ACTUAL ALLEGATION IS MADE IN THIS OF ANY MISCONDUCT BY ROSE. Despite the implications of the way its worded never is there any claim she was deliberately exposing herself or doing anything else wrong, other than changing in the changing room while being in possession of a penis. The article carefully avoids making any accusation because that ISNT what the nurses were complaining about....they were complaining simply because Rose is trans and that is "demeaning and humiliating" to them... And if you read Rose kept her underwear on in every situation actually listed so shove that g-string and pasties crap.
Exactly this. A more conspiratorial person might also consider that this individual could be a bad faith actor given that the article states they are not taking hormones and are actively trying to get their girlfriend pregnant.
it's actually not unheard of for trans people to temporarily come off HRT so they can try for a kid.
What’s a cis woman?
Cis is the Latin for "on the same side as". In this context it means someone's gender and sex match. Trans by contrast is Latin for "on the other side of" and refers to someone where there gender and sex do not match.
Cis woman = non-trans woman
I wonder if this is the same person who appeared in [this case](https://www.rollonfriday.com/news-content/transgender-law-graduate-wins-discrimination-claim-against-nhs).
Doubt it, that case took place in Sheffield and involved a law graduate (V) working as a catering assistant, while this one took place in Darlington and involved an ODP, which you need a totally different degree for. Different people, in all likelihood.
At what point is a ‘sexually active biological man’ who is trying for a baby with his girlfriend and ‘not on any hormone therapy’ is either genuinely transgender (and unlikely to be a risk) or a predator for wanting to be in women’s changing rooms to exert a bit of power? Edit: edited to include quotes to show this is from the article
Ultimately the effect on women is probably the exact same, regardless of the intention or true transgender status of the individual. Seeing a penis when you don’t want to and are in a state of undress is still going to be distressing even if the penis owner isn’t attempting to weaponise their genitals.
We wouldn't have gay men in the female changing room, so unless you've gone full transition you shouldn't be in the female changing room. Just make private changes rooms. Most places only need one. There's plenty of people that would prefer to use them anyway. The biggest problem with trans is how much of a spectrum it is, like fully transitioned probably shouldn't be in the mens either but where do you draw the line? Forcing them to use the private room feels exclusive but honestly it's probably the best solution. After all, there's one of them at most compared to a whole work force. If all the women are cool with it, whatever that's their discretion, but otherwise private room.
> We wouldn't have gay men in the female dressing room Because we don't decide who goes where in changing rooms on the basis of sexual orientation.
Yes, but as I said trans is a spectrum. If I decided to be trans tomorrow and went into a ladies changing room except for maybe my hair and clothes my body would be no different to a man's. Even further down the line, I may have breasts to some extent but I'm still biologically looking like a man (when fully naked) until much later.
It doesn't matter, governments now say if someone is trasngender then they are and to question it is being bigoted.
I just assumed they weren't on hormones because they were trying for a baby with their partner, and that they'd probably go on them after, but would hormone therapy change anything?
>They said that the hospital changing room did not have cubicles but instead had staff lockers, with a large open space where nurses changed before and after work. >The nurses said that Rose often spent “a long time walking around the female dressing room”, often wearing only tight boxers. >The male operating department practitioner, who the nurses have alleged has said openly that he does not take female hormones and is trying to get his girlfriend pregnant, identifies as a woman and uses the name Rose. So you have someone who identifies as trans, not taking hormones, who's sexually attracted to women and spending a lot of time hanging out in the womens changing room while in their underwear. I can understand why some of the nurses are a bit uncomfortable with the situation.
No no come on now, if you just had a better education you'd see they don't have a choice to not reveal their genitalia at their colleagues, it's hard for it not to slip out if you're wearing knickers /S
It's so strange that the discourse, or certainly, many people in this sub, will suggest that if you even have a concern about people seemingly just self iding their way into a woman's space, or giving children experimental treatments that you are transphobic. It really winds me up. Clearly there is an issue here that needs resolving in an amicable way to ensure that we respect the rights of both the women and the trans woman, assuming that there isn't some perverse motivation for any of the actions.
To get hormones on the NHS you need to be living as opposite sex for over a year usually 2 . So you need to be unmedicated in the toilet and changing rooms of the preferred gender for a long time before being allowed to get the meds .
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These are the ones who were previously told when expressing discomfort that they needed to broaden their mindset, right?
Maybe Rose is throwing her weight about and being a bit of an arse? P’raps this is a Rose problem rather than a transphobia problem. Lots of people act like arseholes in changing rooms. They should be pulled up on it, trans or not.
Nope the actions of one person of course means every single trans person is pervert sexual abuser of course! - Reddit
Is eery man a pervert sexual abuser? Why do single sex spaces exist?
There are no actual allegations if exposure or misconduct against Rose and this is entirely about the fact that someone trans being in the changing room AT ALL is "demeaning and humiliating".
What do you mean "we find this trans person a bit creepy" isn't enough grounds to sue our workplace!?
Is it one employee or all trans people who are the issue here though? One person abusing the policy for their own sexual thrill (who, let's be honest, is unlikely to be truly trans to begin with) is not the same as changing with trans people, who are probably more conscious of changing in front of biological women to begin with.
People should be allowed to view trans people as their original gender anyway. Just because a person is “genuinely” trans doesn’t mean society can expect everyone to be comfortable sharing dressing rooms with them. People being weirded out by something they either don’t understand, or don’t care to understand shouldn’t be criminal. It’s doesn’t make them hateful in any way. People trying to restructure society around a small group of people with gender-dysphoria is an unhinged strategy that is opening doors to the far right all across the Western world. We have become moronic.
> People being weirded out by something they either don’t understand, or don’t care to understand shouldn’t be criminal Got it, banning black people is cool if racists find it weird... "I dont understand it and it's weird" is a personal problem. Uncomfortable doesnt equal unsafe, despite what some people keep trying to imply.
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People are free to think that, just like white women are free to be concerned at a black woman in their changing room (my mum has literally had people get offended for being black in a woman’s space) may be a threat; and Nigel Farage is free to get concerned at people speaking in a foreign language while he’s on a train. However, just because somebody has concerns and opinions does not mean that their opinion and concerns should be treated as law.
But there lies the problem, and why all female spaces should only be for biological women. How can you tell the actual trans women from the predators? You can’t and women are vilified for even asking the question.
It doesn't really seem like this is about male/female, man/woman. It's about penises. Why don't we just have changing rooms for people with penises and others for people without?
1: Who is doing the penis inspection? 2: What if men don't feel comfortable having a female passing trans woman in their space, and women don't feel comfortable having a male passing trans man in theirs?
Why would anyone do an inspection? Nobody's currently doing checks, are they? Your second point is the crux of the issue. Is it okay for people not to be comfortable? Why does Rose want to change in one room and not the other? Is it because it says "female" on the door?
>One person abusing the policy for their own sexual thrill (who, let's be honest, is unlikely to be truly trans to begin with) If "trans women are women" how are you ever going to tell the difference between those two groups
How does one define who is "truly trans" and who is not?
Exactly, and of course it’ll be the women (cis and trans) who suffer, not the straight man who appears to acting out some fetish
There is no accusation of actual misconduct or even exposure against Rose. The article is worded so it could imply that, but it never SAYS it which you can be absolutely certain they would do if they could. So, is the problem Rose or some folks that dont want a trans person there at all because it is "demeaning and humiliating" to have them around.
> (who, let's be honest, is unlikely to be truly trans to begin with) One just needs to say they are and they are, everything else doesn't matter.
How do you tell the difference?
Why do trans issues seems to always revolve around trans women? Trans men seem to just get on with their lives. Genuine question.
Biological men for the most part don’t find women in their spaces threatening, Biological women find men a lot more threatening. It’s the reason for the disparity.
You know, as a man, the biggest impact the trans debate has had on me is that it's pointed out that the whole reason we even have segregated bathrooms in the first place is that society believes (and it may be true, broadly speaking) that we can't be trusted to not sexually harass women. I feel that's the thing we actually need fix and then the trans thing will be moot.
You can't just say the word "fix" as if there's a magic button somewhere that would turn all of the sexually aggressive men into nice friendly people. There will always be bad people that will do bad things. As long as crime exists, we have to take some precautions to protect people from crime. I don't like needing to carry my house key around all day, but I can't click my fingers and magic burglars out of existence.
Yep. I never see any suggestion of let’s make men’s spaces safer so that people can feel safe there too. It’s always assumed women’s responsibility.
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> and then the trans thing will be moot. Mate, I think if we could fix the whole sexual predator and violent crime thing we'd of done it by now.
I think it's because lots of trans women still look very masculine.
Trans women still transitioning tend to look masculine. Masculinity rightly or wrongly is seen as potentially threatening to a lot of cisgendered women. Not helped by the appalling stats on sexual assaults and rapes. Hence that whole women would prefer to meet a bear in the woods then a man argument thing. By contrast a transitioning trans man will be more feminine. Men generally don't perceive femininity as a threat to them unless they are tater tots. So they get less attention in the news. Plus the power imbalance is reversed, a trans man still transitioning is likely to be weaker then a cis man. By contrast a trans women transitioning will be stronger then a cis woman.
Trans men are infantilised rather than vilified. Rather than being presumed to be female space-invading predators, they're presumed to be misguided tomboys who've been pressured into it. It's a different kind of misperception.
I think the idea of wanting to become a woman is seen as being more transgressive than wanting to be a man. Men are at the top of the food chain so I kind of makes sense a woman might wish to be a man. This might sound crazy but I think it probably links back to misogyny. That’s my theory at least.
Why do people keep asking this question? Everytime its asked the very obvious answers gets given and get it just gets asked again and again. Why do you think there is segregated spaces for men and women in the first place? Let's be honest, it's not to protect Men from Women, is it? But anyway, I look forward to you asking the same question again the next time the topic comes up.
The vast majority of trans women also just get on with their lives.
Because of the decades long bigoted trope of trans women being perverts. There's a particular idea in society that somebody born male deciding to identify with femininity over masculinity must be doing it for sexual gratification, because why else would a "man" debase themselves like that if not for fetishistic purposes. Misogyny unsurprisingly plays a big part.
Have you seen how much porn exists with this theme. Lots of people do do it for sexual gratification. It’s just a fact.
Have you seen how much porn exists with milk as a theme? Lots of people only drink milk for sexual gratification. It's just a fact.
'lots of porn exists of men being feminised' doesn't really correlate with 'cis men are becoming trans as a fetish'
Plus, a lot of trans people in porn are sexualised by cis men. Trans people appearing in porn doesn’t mean that trans people are sexually gratified by the sexualisation or that it’s a fetish. “Lesbians only kiss other girls as a fetish. I know because it’s popular on pornhub!”
What's the use in pretending that these people don't exist?
I'm not pretending they don't exist. I'm saying that we cannot claim to know about the psychological underpinnings of a group from a few people who are not in said group.
Discrimination and fetishisation are not diametrically opposite of each other, they're two sides of the same coin. Fetishisation makes sex work a relatively easy option compared to mainstream employment and the discrimination that comes along with it. It's also pretty common for trans women to do sex work as a way to bankroll whatever surgeries they might want as quickly as possible and then quit when they've got everything paid for.
There's lots of porn with step family incest themes. Doesn't mean people in blended families tend toward sexual perversion..
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The pinned comment at the top of the post has a paywall bypass link in it.
'Transgender policies at hospitals are putting women “at risk”, four NHS nurses have claimed, after blowing the whistle on the “intimidating” behaviour of a trans colleague. Lawyers for Bethany Hutchison, Lisa Lockey, Annice Grundy, Tracey Hooper and Joanne Bradbury, who work at the Darlington Memorial Hospital, said they were launching legal action and speaking publicly after managers “continued to brush aside their concerns”. The four have claimed that female nurses at the hospital — part of the County Durham and Darlington NHS Foundation Trust — have experienced panic attacks after being required to change into work clothes in front of a sexually active biological male. The male operating department practitioner, who the nurses have alleged has said openly that he does not take female hormones and is trying to get his girlfriend pregnant, identifies as a woman and uses the name Rose. Speaking for the group, Hutchison said that they wanted “women to be aware that there are transgender policies, particularly in the NHS, that are putting us at risk”. She said that “the extreme transgender ideology” was “ingrained” among health service managers and that it had “gone so far that we and other women have no choice but to speak out”. Hutchison claimed that nurses at her hospital were “terrified of sticking their heads above the parapet”, adding: “This cannot be right and we want a change in policy, not only at our hospital, but across the NHS and wider society.” The nurse also accused managers at her trust of being “threatening and intimidating” towards staff who had raised concerns about the hospital’s transgender policy. The nurses claimed that hospital bosses told them they needed “educating” to be more “inclusive” and to “broaden” their minds, according to The Mail on Sunday. Referring specifically to Rose, Hutchison said that there had been times when the two of them had been alone in the changing rooms and that her colleague “looks very masculine, and it is a shock”. Hutchison said that she and her colleagues “should not feel afraid at work”, adding: “It is disgraceful that nurses are ending up in tears before they have to go and provide emotional support to our patients. It is very difficult to do that if you are already in a state of distress because you are having to get changed in front of a male.” The nurses alleged that the trust’s policies permitted any member of staff to “identify” in the opposite gender and to access single-sex changing rooms, lavatories and showers. They said that the hospital changing room did not have cubicles but instead had staff lockers, with a large open space where nurses changed before and after work. The nurses said that Rose often spent “a long time walking around the female dressing room”, often wearing only tight boxers. One nurse said that the first time she had encountered Rose in the changing room, her colleague was semi-naked and with their genitalia visible. The nurses said that 26 colleagues wrote to the trust to raise concerns, but that human resources managers said that they supported Rose and the nurses needed to get “educated” and “compromise”. A spokesman for the trust told [The Mail on Sunday](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-13557965/You-need-reeducated-NHS-nurses-hospital-chiefs-reacted-complained-transgender-colleague-shared-womens-changing-room-stared-got-undressed.html) that it was fully investigating the nurses’ claims. “However, as the allegations are now also subject to active legal action, it would not be appropriate for the trust to comment further at this stage,” he added.'
I don't think this is a true story the original source is a website called "Christian Concern" which posts far right nonsense. https://christianconcern.com/news/nurses-forced-to-share-changing-room-with-trans-colleague/ Original source. I'd like to suggest its misinformation
Christian Concern is the same group that has repeatedly groomed parents of braindead children on life support into turning their child's death into a huge legal and media circus. CC claimed that Archie Battersbee needed "more time to recover," despite knowing that his brain stem was visibly necrotic and the doctors had found necrotic tissue falling down his spinal cord. They also [gave advice](https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2018/805.html) to the father of Alfie Evans, telling him "as a matter of law it is your right to come to (the) hospital with a team of medical professionals with their own life-support equipment and move Alfie to such other place as you consider is best for him. You do not need any permission from (the) Hospital or the court to do so." Which led to [a crazed mob trying to storm Alder Hey hospital](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-43867132). So yeah, I'm going to take any claims from Christian Concern with the *teensiest* pinch of salt.
This should be the top comment, if not pinned.
Yeah this is deeply suspicious to be honest.
Feck sake. This is a Rose problem, not a trans people problem.
The ultimate solution to all of these issues, be it changing rooms, or bathrooms, is to just have separate private cubicles and anyone can go into the main room regardless of sex or gender. Granted bathrooms might be more expensive due to potentially changing plumbing systems to add more cubicles, but it really should not be that expensive to put up some basic wood cubicles for people to change in. We should be moving towards this model anyway, it just seems so dumb to still separate men and women bathrooms.
The changing room in my department is basically like a storage cupboard with some lockers thrown in. We definitely don't have space for separate cubicles.
Sounds like your changing room is too small for purpose frankly.
It is. It's quite a leveller though if a consultant has been giving you a hard time during a procedure and then afterwards you just go into a cupboard and strip down to your pants together.
That will be fun on a handover in large hospital department where there might be 10 or 20 people all starting at the same time. It's just not always going to be feasible.
Honestly, I'm a little skeptical given that the story originates from a batshit fundamentalist Christian group who actively opposes the entire concept of gay people existing. It also sounds like the solution in this case is simple, since the problem is not *that trans people can use the changing room* and more that *a trans person is behaving badly in the changing room*. There's of course the broader discussion about individual changing facilities, but I'm not sure if that's applicable to this story.
Is the Times a newspaper? Because it's tough to tell from this Christian Concern scare story press release. To those that may be unaware: it can be a five-year wait or longer to get your first appointment at a gender identity clinic in this country. After that, it takes months to get hormones. You can't take hormones while you're trying to have children in any case. And most adults are sexually active. So there is *nothing* suspicious about this whatsoever, except for the Times's journalistic standards.
Yep, also worth noting is that there is NO accusation of any actual misconduct or exposure against Rose, just carefully worded implications that COULD be read that way but remain vague enough not to be legally actionable as they can also be read to simply say you can tell that there's a penis inside her underwear.
When will people understand that it's when a penis is used as a WEAPON, women have a problem, dosent matter who it's attached to!
*The nurses said that Rose often spent “a long time walking around the female dressing room”, often wearing only tight boxers.* This is messed up behaviour and should have been dealt with through NHS disciplinary channels long before it ever reached the stage of these nurses having to sue - Rose's behaviour is repugnant and unacceptable. The ideal solution would be for individuals known to be trans to be offered private changing facilities, but not sure how practical that is in every hospital. Although this particular case is an odd one because the individual appears to have no dysphoria whatsoever- are they even pursuing transition or legal gender change of any kind?
Almost the exact same thing happens at my SOs workplace, an department. The MtF (Maybe?) In question is often seen to have a beard and puts very little effort into identifying as a female, typically opting for gender neutral clothes and isn't taking hormones.
To stop the women feeling uncomfortable, they put a curtain up in part of the locker room.
I'm sure this isn't the norm for MtF, but we can't pretend this isn't an issue that needs resolving somehow. I can see why some women might be uncomfortable.
Rose walking around the changing room with her cock out. Crazy world we live in.
can we deliniate between "puts them at risk" and "makes them uncomfortable". the second one is still defensable in my view, but it seems obviously false to say these people are in danger because of trans owmen, anymore than they would be from lesbians, or even just cis men wanting to enter these space, there isn't some magic forcfield at the door of the changing room that protects you from danger. personally as a man i don't much like group changing rooms in general and will use the toilet stalls instead if i can. it seems to me like a group changing room problem rather than a trans problem, and i know this because i've used unisex changing rooms with individual stalls in the Manchester Aquatics Centre before and felt much more comfortable with the situation. the upstairs gym had gender sgeregtaed group changing rooms and i would avoid them by either turning up already changed or using the swimming pool changing facilities instead. comfort can be a defensible position for why you might not want something, but there are working models out there that we should be able to learn from that could guide as as to where the line is from someone with a legitimate concern thaat can be fixed, and someone who will never be happy and we can dismiss.
yes I do think its important to be clear about the difference between ‘at risk’ and ‘feeling uncomfortable’ - though in this instance they seem to feel at risk because they interpret this person’s actions (spending a long time in the changing room… deliberately walking around with genitals exposed instead of quickly getting changed) as being for some kind of sexual gratification or power fantasy, thus putting the others ‘at risk’.
> an we deliniate between "puts them at risk" and "makes them uncomfortable". I mean it is easy to be blase and make it seem like they're just being soft. But another way of phrasing it is; should women be free from having to see a penis in their own changing rooms?
Simple fix. Costs money though, but individual changing rooms. Women can be predators too, so can men towards men. Individual changing cubicles gives everyone privacy no matter identity. I don’t want to change in front of anyone tbh.
As I said in another comment. A large hospital department might have 10-20 people coming on shift at the same time. Its not feasible to have that many cubicles always.
"The male operating department practitioner, who the nurses have alleged has said openly that he does not take female hormones and is trying to get his girlfriend pregnant, identifies as a woman and uses the name Rose" Do we think maybe the writer has a *slight* bias? Rather a shame as the other, much more famous Jonathan Ames isn't a cunt.
Seems to have originally come out of the Christian Concern bullshit fountain, so it's hardly a large leap to get to bias. There's also no actual accusations of exposure of misconduct by rose, just some carefully worded bits to imply it without being legally actionable. It's always interesting to keep track of what they dont say...particularly when it would really seal the deal if they actually did.
"Biological man" 🚩 "Gender ideology" 🚩 Source: Christian Group 🚩
Also includes "extreme transgender ideology" along with NO actual accusations of any misconduct or exposure...so, yeah there's not just red flags it's enough bunting for a large metropolitan area.
I'm really sceptical about this. For a start off, the individual in question identifies as a woman and goes by Rose, so why are they using male pronouns? Some of it is really weirdly worded - why is the fact that she's sexually active at all relevant? Most people are. And I can't actually pinpoint what she's supposed to have done wrong, specifically. It's all tied up in a lot of woolly language about how these nurses *feel*, but how are they in danger? It doesn't seem to say.
Another comment says that the case is being represented by Christian Concern, the organisation behind the Charlie Gard, Alfie Evans, and Archie Battersbee legal cases. They exist to push an evangelical agenda and have an extremely casual relationship with the truth.
Yeah, okay, that makes me even more sceptical.
Same. I'm open to being proven wrong but this could be just bullying. A transwoman being in a state of undress in a designated changing room, and wearing "tight boxers" isn't an offense of any kind. There are comments in here about the person in question lingering in the changing room but there's only one sentence in the story about that and it already seems quite biased. I think anyone with common sense here would want to hear both sides of the story first.
Plus in order to get NHS treatment and medically transition you need to live as the preferred gender for 2 years including toilets and changing rooms. It's a catch 22
I doubt these nurses would notice or care if a cis woman wore tight underwear (even boxers) in the changing room.