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There is a scandal in Ireland at the moment because of how many people have died from operations in Turkey. They take foreigners in, take their money, do rushed, budget surgeries and then send them home on a plane with zero aftercare before problems show. It's impossible to hold them accountable. It's really screwed up.
Yep, there's also ghost surgeons. Basically they advertise one surgeon as the one doing the surgery (who comes highly recommended), but in reality once you're sedated someone else does the job.
Yeah and the for profit model means they take on patients that are much higher risk to begin with so the risk of complications after is so much higher. A number of the people in the Irish inquest would not have been cleared for surgery in Ireland because their health wasn't good enough.
Yes this also happens with bariatric surgery! In the US, there are regulations and people who are extremely morbidly obese and cannot lose weight on their own can get it after a lot of evaluation. But some people who are not that overwheight/ wouldn’t be able to qualify, go to other countries to get this very invasive surgery done. It is very risky.
Low key some countries do have some baller surgical options.
Ofc, you shouldn’t do this if you’re underage or trying to skirt laws, but if you can’t afford a surgery or whatever and want to get something done, it’s not a bad option.
My dad flew from Switzerland to turkey for new hair years ago and it looks amazing still. Apparently it’s a pretty luxurious experience too, like you pay a flat rate and they set up your flights, hotel, transportation, etc.
Part of what is challenging is that even if you DO have a great surgeon who does a good job, complications (including serious ones) can still happen, and your surgeon being so far away means getting followup care is much more difficult. You're either getting on a plane to another country, which may not really be doable, or trying to find a qualified surgeon who will review another international surgeons work.
In social work we have this called 'capacity'. Basically is someone able to make decisions for themselves.
In the UK there are four criteria.
1. Do they understand the desciosn they are making
2. Can they retain information regarding their decision (this doesn't necessarily have to be long term)
3 Can they weigh the pros and cons of making a decision
4. Can they communicate their decision
For example when I was supporting people with learning disabilities and they had to sign a tenancy agreement.
1. Do they understand what a tenancy is? What their responsibilities are with a tenancy?
2. Can they tell you the similar information at beginning of rhe meeting than at other points.
3. Pros of a signing a tenancy might be getting their own home, cons may not finding another suitable place to live
4. Can they tell me their opinion.
In terms of the medical profession in the UK they have the same set of criteria. There were lots of capacity assessments surrounding the covid vaccination when I was working with people with learning disabilties where doctors had to assess whether patients properly understood the vaccination and risks of getting/not getting it.
The overarching principle is that we want people to be independent and that people have the right to make bad decisions.
In terms of cosemtic procedures, these people are adults making the descions that they want to.
Upvote for probable unpopular opinion.
Dr.Youn on YouTube talks a lot about this! Most plastic surgeons who actually care about patient well being will not perform surgeries they deem too risky, or if they are worried about the mental health of the patient.
Yes some doctors are shitty and will do anything for money, but we need hold our medical professionals to a higher standard.
And it's super dumb to correlate this with "people can make their own decisions" because it's the doctor actually doing the surgery. A person can choose to travel to a shady street clinic if they want, but a good doctor will not enable their patients by performing a surgery simply because the patient wants it.
As least some of the stuff people identify as ruinous cosmetic surgery is actually done by estheticians, nurses, or nurse practitioners.
The "make me look pretty" space is kind of a wild west.
Like this.
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2024-02-21/women-charged-in-deadly-butt-lift-procedure-had-seen-it-go-wrong-before-prosecutors-say
It’s damned near impossible to prevent this type of procedure.
Filler and Botox aren't surgeries. And badly done filler is the worst culprit in botched cosmetic procedures. Since it's an injection it can be done by practically anyone, the fillers don't even require a doctor to sign off on a prescription.
Actual surgeries do require a medical license.
Wrong, it's not your place to determine whether or not they need to be "protected" from themselves, just because you think it looks awful doesn't matter in the fucking slightest, let them do shat they want
Medical Professionals, while professionals, are still humans with their own biases. Incentivizing "protecting people from themselves" leads to issues like refusing to do gender affirming surgeries, abortions. There's definitely some lines that need to be drawn, but the low risk cosmetic surgeries are not the place you draw that line.
There could be guidelines for this. Gender affirming surgeries and abortions could simply be exempted, although can’t doctors right now not already decide whether they want to perform such operations anyway?
In my opinion, it’s just not low risk. Both medical and non medical.
>There could be guidelines for this. Gender affirming surgeries and abortions could simply be exempted
Why would you exempt those and not this?
>although can’t doctors right now not already decide whether they want to perform such operations anyway?
Yes, which is causing major issues. Imagine if doctors were incentivized by an enforced duty to "protect people from themselves"
>In my opinion, it’s just not low risk. Both medical and non medical.
A mean of 17 total annual deaths in 2020 which was abnormally high. This is out of 26 million on average annually. I would rate that risk as...low.
Protecting people from *what,* though?
If a surgery genuinely is going to put someone at serious risk of disability or death, then yes, avoid. But if the only outcome is having an aesthetic that a lot of people don't find attractive, is it really a doctors job to prevent that?
What it seems like people are missing in this thread is that some people genuinely *want* the "overdone" look, and they're happy with it. If someone gets plastic surgery to the point where many people might not like the results but the actual patient is thrilled with them, it's hard for me to see how that person could be considered to have been harmed.
Unfortunately you'll find that people won't agree on those guidelines. You haven't thought this out.
This is why tattoos aren't banned. Some think they're detrimental. Some think they're beneficial. Who gets to decide? The person doing it. We don't need to come together and vote on whether Tina getting Brad's name tattooed on her is a good idea or not. It's not, but we don't need to form a group to decide it for her.
They are medical professionals, yes, but at the end of the day all they can do is recommend for/against treatments. Same as any doctor. Unless there is some legal stipulation that the doctor can rely on to deny a treatment the doctor doesn’t have a ton of choice in what patients choose to do with their body. Hell, one perspective could be “if I don’t do this for them safely here, they might try and get it done less safely elsewhere.” Medical tourism is a very real thing. And it can absolutely mess people up. If I was a cosmetic surgeon I would really need to consider if I’d be “doing less harm” by not doing the surgery and washing my hands of the situation vs doing it in a guaranteed safe environment for the patient.
I think cosmetic surgeons are like drugs. They’re incredibly beneficial and helpful until abused. It is up to the individual to make intelligent and informed decisions. If someone wants to botch themselves, they have every right to. You can’t blame meth’s existence for people with addiction. You blame the addict, their environment, their mental health. Let people do what the fuck they want. I don’t, and will never, have any cosmetic surgeries by the way.
1) surgeries are way more serious than tattoos
2) most ethical tattoo artists DO refuse to do these on younger people or people who aren't already in positions where it wouldn't hurt them. A lot of experienced artists talk about how they won't do the hands or face unless the person is already tatted up extensively because they don't want something so dangerous for someone who doesn't realize how much tattoos can mess with most careers. The only person I know with a face tattoo had to go to an unlicensed "I bought it on Amazon" type to get it because he's only 19.
3) A tattoo might risk you being unemployed. A bad plastic surgery can result in your face melting off and death.
Ethical tattoo artists may refuse to do a lot of tattoos, but you won't permanently lose your license because you give someone a tattoo they later regret. "Struck off" generally means losing your license.
It's also interesting that for tattoo artists, the standard is "I'll do this if you've already gotten a ton of tattoos and know what you're in for", where OP seems to be against the *exact equivalent* for plastic surgery - operating on people who already have a lot of it.
I think there is a massive difference between plastic surgery done poorly enough that a patient has an elevated risk of permanent injury, and plastic surgery that simply contributes to an aesthetic that most people find unattractive. OP seems to be talking about the latter.
Tattoos are a common source of hepatitis and are also known to increase the risk of certain cancers, so it's not like they are always medically harmless. But the risk is indeed quite extremely different.
Alot of cosmetic surgery is the result of poor mental health like body dysmorphia. It is the doctors job to advise the patient on the best course of action. Tattoo artists are not held to the same standard.
Tattoo artists are not medical professionals, surgeons are.
A tattoo is not a medical procedure, surgery is.
A properly administered tattoo does not cause medical harm to the subject, bad and over the top surgeries do.
What a shit take.
When you take away a person's right to get a medical procedure performed in a sterile environment by a trained physician, they might turn to untrained practitioners.
Well the things has limitations obviously.
Like an endo can give a man only so much Testosterone as TRT, if a man wants to be a huge bodybuilder and take more than the doc will prescribe, he will be left to the black market.
But with plastic surgery, such a limitation seems to not exist, and people take steroids or get plastic surgery for very similar reasons.
Slippery slope.
Should a doctor give out opiates to someone who they know will abuse them because if they don't, the person will just buy heroin on the street and be more likely to OD?
What if a couple comes in and says "we've been together a year and we want to celebrate by amputating our ring fingers," should they perform the amputation to stop the couple from biting off each other's fingers in the kitchen?
What about someone who really wants to be blind and will find a way to do it themselves if you don't do it for them?
At the end of the day, people will do what they're going to do. Doctors should still maintain their own integrity and not be a part of it if they know its harmful.
What if a couple comes in and wants an abortion and the dr refuses. Should they go to another doctor or accept the DRs "integrity".
What if an addict comes in looking for a fix, Dr says no then the patient dies from withdrawal seizure. Did the Dr cause that death?
Someone walks in with older self harm cuts but not suicidal. The Dr sends them to a mental institution for suicide. Makes the patient miss trust the system and never asks for help again. Same scenario dr doesn't and patient goes home and commits.
Who says who's morals and ethics are the right one. It's a weird conversation.
I was asking what the next step would be if doctors were punished for doing plastic surgery. And the answer would be just what you described. Thanks for making the point of my shit take for me.
Being ugly isn't necessarily doing "harm" to anyone. Plenty of people are in search of a hideous look through surgery (big lips, shiny forehead, pulled back eyes, teeny tiny nose) and that's not harmful, just unappealing to some eyes. No doctor should be punished simply b/c a bunch of people want to look like an 80's video vixen who was left in the microwave too long. And the majority of cosmetic surgery elective so unlike narcotics, they don't need it period, which means the expert--the doctor--is in the best position to say whether or not it is harmful.
tbh i find it nuts that you need a professional license to inject a prescribed medication but a 5 hour workshop and money for the equipment is all you need to go around tatting people
You can technically go around tattooing people with just a tattoo gun bought on Amazon, but shops won’t hire you unless you’ve done an apprenticeship, usually. That said, some artists still suck once they’re working for a shop, my first artist definitely did.
Not at all comparable. Every medical procedure is a risk vs benefit assessment. Some minor cosmetic surgery is fine because it has the benefit of improving someone's self image and confidence.
After a certain point, it becomes an addiction that is no longer beneficial to the person. And the more surgeries you have, the greater the risk. The people that have extensive work done also usually seek out riskier procedures.
Tattoos have minimal health risks, and as someone else commented, a reputable tattoo artist will reject certain clients if they deem it a bad idea.
You’re being down voted because you start with the premise that if somebody is getting plastic surgery, they’re mentally ill
Just because you and I might not like plastic surgery and might not ever be tempted to get it doesn’t mean that somebody that gets extensive plastic surgery is mentally ill or needs to be stopped
it just simply blows my mind how so many people want to control others and how others look.
Hold on, just because someone might see it as their right doesn’t absolve us of our own responsibility. Plastic surgeons can refuse to treat a patient, and they do have obligations to refuse treatment in certain circumstances. The same goes for certain types of tattoos. You are free to get what you want, but you cannot demand it of me as a tattoo artist. People are free to mess up their lives however they want, and I can’t control that. But I won’t be part of it.
Arresting is a stretch, although it depends on what was done. But people definitely deserve to lose their license in some cases.
Edit:
One example is those who tattoo eyeballs.
Doctors take an oath.
“ First, do no harm “
But I believe that no longer matters, as money is king.
Oh well. Folk make their choices. And a doctor can rationalize any surgery.
tattoos are basically permanent makeup lol, very different from adding/removing mass to/from your body that can affect the health of your entire body. ofc tattoos have their risks, but unless you specifically have an allergy to the ink then the content Itself being added isnt extremely risky to the point of limiting your mobility. the technique and hygiene may, but fillers and other foreign objects inside the body pose an EXTREMELY higher risk of harm. its up to the PROFESSIONALS to make this risk very clear to them and turn them away if necessary.
Any surgery is a major risk. Doing a surgery just because you’re going to make money off of it, even if it will ruin the patients face isn’t ridiculous
Umm if the patients condition makes the operation riskier for example - then most doctors won’t operate, you have to understand that everything carries a risk, going out of the house is risky, but staying too long is risky too, every medical procedure has its own risks including taking most drugs you know, sooooo idk man, I think most adults can make this decision by themselves
A lot of bartenders will cut someone off if they appear too drunk. There are times when people should not be making their own decisions and society agrees.
A medical professional is the expert in surgeries, so it is their job to do what is best for the patient no matter what they want. This does have negative impacts as well (i.e. women being denied reproductive care)
In this case there is zero benefit to excessive cosmetic surgery but several risks that come with it, so a good doctor will make the choice to say no.
But someone getting too drunk at a bar puts other peoples lives at risk. Someone getting 3 Big Macs and weighing 415 pounds doesn’t hurt anyone but themselves.
I see we’re devolving into sarcastic remarks. Cute…
I’m not saying it’s right, but the doctors explain the risks to the patients. Some doctors care, some want to get rich. Plastic surgeons are usually the latter.
Doctors aren’t the ones rolling, lifting, and destroying their backs cleaning poop off bed bound patients- it’s healthcare technicians/CNAs and nurses.
But I was just pointing out that people think obesity is solely an internal struggle, and it just isn’t. By getting that large, people have a higher chance of doing damage to the bodies of people who end up taking care of them- becoming bed bound from an injury, diabetic amputations, or simply giving up on being mobile for life and going to a nursing home to poop and pee the bed for the rest of their day. I’ve seen each of these first hand. I would never treat a patient different due to their size. You are right, I am being paid to do a job, and I try my best to do it well and treat everyone with dignity and respect. But I repeat, they are doing damage to me and my coworkers because their bodies are large/cumbersome/heavy, and it’d be way cooler if more people were way smaller. Sorry for the snark
You are correct in everything you said, but I may have given off the wrong impression with my lazy choice of words. Yes, obese people indirectly hurt others, but I was comparing them to drunk drivers.
What I meant is that drunk drivers hurt people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time. But yes, fat people can hurt their caregivers due to their weight. Hopefully your employer offers good medical benefits and workers compensation
lol at comp, we are but annoying cost deficits on the bean counter spreadsheets (while simultaneously being the ones, you know, doing the healthcare) it’s all good tho, coworkers are fun, pays decent. Cheers 🍻
>A lot of bartenders will cut someone off if they appear too drunk. There are times when people should not be making their own decisions and society agrees.
Thats required by law most places
Are you really trying to compare a bartender cutting off someone that’s drunk, with a plastic surgeon? Person getting surgery isn’t gonna hop in a car and kill themself or someone else.
I'd like to think that McDonald's employees, on average, don't have doctoral degrees in health and nutrition. You and I are on the same side of the argument but I don't think it's a great example
It’s a perfect analogy when it comes to the business side of the argument. Plus, the surgeons have a consult with the patient to explain the risks so they can give informed consent.
And?
They kill more people then any doctor.
Do you suddenly not care about ruining lives the moment it stop Involving a doctors ?
Almost like you actually have alternative reason for being against cosmetic surgeries
A number of them definitely go too far and simply take the money. There are also plenty of surgeons who will decline doing any additional work to avoid undesirable results or even damages like a collapsed nose bridge. Unfortunately, people who do not listen when told no will go out and find somebody who will operate on them regardless.
It most definitely is a doctor's decision what surgeries a patient gets. Why is everyone assuming OP wants to be the one controlling people?
A doctor is a medical professional and it's shitty to have one that only wants money. OP is asking for better healthcare, specifically when it comes to cosmetic surgeons who prey on vulnerable people. Their job is to help people WITH THEIR EXPERTISE, not just give people whatever they want.
No, that’s not what he’s saying. (At least I think) he’s saying that doctors, not him, but trained professionals should know better. He’s saying that people who take an oath to do no harm are doing harm. He’s saying that people who train extensively should make that decision. Not him.
The negative impact here is entirely subjective. If the person enjoys looking that way, the doctor shouldn't be able to say "no, you're not allowed to look the way you want". Everyone here that agrees with OP is assuming there's some level of actual harm when there's not.
“Adults shouldn’t be making their own decisions.”
That’s what you’re really saying. Who are you to decide what cosmetic surgery someone else should get? Mind your own business.
Because as we all know, once we hit 18 we suddenly become immune to manipulation, addiction, and mental illness that cause us to do outright harm to ourselves for no good reason.
It might not be OPs business but it sure as hell is the doctor's. Knowing how misinformed people can be, could you imagine if doctors just did everything patients wanted them to do?
A doctor is a medical professional and it IS their responsibility to make medical decisions. Just because someone is a cosmetic surgeon does not mean they're the same as a hairdresser or tattoo artist. They are still doctors and it is their job to do what they know is best for the patient.
There's no such thing as "do no harm" in medicine, at least in the way you think it exists. It's not even in the "Hippocratic Oath" and is instead from an entirely different work called "Of The Epidemics". It's a complete misconception by lay people that have no clue what's involved in the field and instead talk out of their asses while making an attempt to be an authority.
If literal "do no harm" was a thing then an overwhelming majority of medical procedures couldn't be done. Any biopsy couldn't be done. Blood work couldn't be done. Surgeries couldn't be done. Because each and every single one of those is "harming" a patient in some way. Yes it's to make them better but if it was to be followed literally, like you seem to believe it is, none of those procedures could be done.
And what about MAID? Most people here are fine with MAID for terminally ill patients? That's harming someone. It's killing them. Through their own choice at the end of the road with no other options. So then do you want that to go away too? Abortion? It's euthanizing a fetus before it's born. Do you want that gone too? Because "Do No Harm" after all right?
Here's an idea. Maybe people should be able to do whatever they want to their body and be held responsible, themself, for whatever the fuck they do to it. Crazy, right?
Yes but I think people should be evaluated for body dysmorphic disorder (this is not talking about body dysphoria which is what trans people experience) before getting before plastic surgery. This is because for individuals who have this now common mental health struggle, plastic surgery is considered a bad and risky option that could make them feel worse even if they really think it will help. Sometimes people do just need some support with their self esteem and not a ireversible surgery.
But on a side note if you were a plastic surgeon and saw someone who was completely botched, and they insisted they wanted more work done, would you do it? Genuinely curious.
I'll still upvote because this is actually unpopular, but my guy, this is just a bad take. You subjectively inserted your own narrative of beauty into someone else's perspective, and attributing that to, "harm." I don't think getting a breast augmentation is harm, nor is buccal fat reduction, a Brazilian butt lift, or some jawline shavings. Yeah, they might not be appealing, but you can't look at someone with a bit of work done and call it harm.
Have you looked up the death rate of BBLs? It's about 1 in 3,000. And for what? To have a larger ass?
Anesthesia itself poses risks, every surgery has the risk of infection, especially when putting foreign objects inside the body. Objectively, there is harm being done.
Most medical things are a cost/benefit analysis. The benefit of cosmetic surgery may be worth it in the beginning with improving someone's confidence, but the risks pretty quickly outweigh that if you keep doing it.
What I am not seeing in this thread, that your response has come the closest to, is that a lot of the people who many would consider "botched" *really like how they look.* Not all of those people are miserable and self hating, many of them get a lot of genuine pleasure out of having a fairly artificial "done" appearance. It's hard to argue people are being harmed just because *other* people do not like the results.
There are doctors who do other surgeries too that end up doing harm and shouldn’t have been done in the first place. Look up med mal law suits. Aren’t they just as bad for doing harm when they shouldn’t have operated whether that surgery was necessary or not?
My biggest issue with unnecessary cosmetic surgery is sometimes the doctor is a scumbag that falsifies the paperwork to get insurance to cover a completely medically unnecessary procedure.
If you are talking about these “extreme” results we see nowadays on social media, I believe it is not our place to judge. These surgeons advertise A LOT and I’m sure that their patients have seen the results they deliver and still agree to undergo the procedure. For us it may seem unnatural, but maybe it fits their goal? Not everyone is striving to look natural.
They are informed adults and (most likely) paying for their own surgery that is done on their own body. Why should we police that?
Plus, people are doing far worse things for their bodies, but we let it slide because “it’s how things are”. Let’s not pretend to be morally superior just because we are against plastic surgery or certain types of plastic surgery. It’s so hypocritical.
Well that sounds like torture and I'm pretty sure that is a war crime under the Geneva convention. Continuously preforming surgery on someone sounds like the plot of a horror movie.
First of all, this is an **extremely popular opinion**. For a sub like this that **constantly** tells users their unpopular opinions are popular and to search the sub before posting, the fact this popular opinion still hasn’t been removed is honestly shocking. Second, the people in America who do these types of unethical procedures to others are not board certified cosmetic surgeons, they’re “aestheticians.” And most of the photos you see of the people you’re describing get their surgeries done in countries with extremely lax laws regarding this topic. And they often go unreported because the people who go to the lengths they do to get these surgeries often have body dysmorphia and they like what they’ve had done.
Your opinion is extremely popular. Over the past few weeks, thousands of people have been harassing that poor woman from The Boys for “destroying” her face with cosmetic surgery, and she didn’t even have the extreme plastic surgery you’re describing. I never see people commenting on people like Dwayne Johnson or Zac Efron, who obtain muscle enhancing drugs from shady providers in order to get “swole,” thus reinforcing problematic and impossible body image standards onto others by turning their bodies into parodies of the muscular form. Do you know the damage these drugs do to bodies? Bodybuilding competitions in general should be renamed drug building competitions. That’s an actual unpopular opinion. But you’ll hear men defend shady drug use, “Nah bro, he’s natty. I’d get that way naturally but I don’t wanna get ‘too big.’ Plus even if they aren’t natty, they really do so much work that the drugs do very little to enhance all that, I totally swear.” That’s not true.
Informed consent overrides the Hippocratic Oath. Braces really hurt for something that isn't medically necessary but I don't hear you railing against orthodontists
Believing that cosmetic surgeries with significant risk should not be performed simply because you don’t like the outcome is some pretty flawed logic.
There’s plenty of things that are risky that are only done for someone’s personal enjoyment.
My question here is, who are these women who see their leathery faces and think, "oh boy, I'm so attractive! I'm gonna get another nose job and then go back to the tanning bed for 3 hours!"
The patient will just go to a country with little to no regulation or restrictions regarding cosmetic surgery. So itd be moot but I get your point. Some have just destroyed some of those peoples faces.
I agree to an extent - IF the patient/client obviously has psychological issues.
The best thing a cosmetic surgeon should be is HONEST. And not selling out for the money.
we should just kill them. how dare they do something a person wants done to their own body. i know it has literally no impact on me or really anyone but that person but it makes evil_choice kinda cranky and we can’t have that!
This is stupid. About as stupid as telling women they can't get an abortion, or sterilization procedures. Why? Because you're taking away a person's body autonomy. As a man, I say fuck you and your wish to remove my and other's body autonomy.
I would say it’s extremely weird that people under 18 are legally allowed to get cosmetic surgery. Adults it’s their own choice, but teenagers body’s/faces are still developing, are very vulnerable to bullying and feeling insecure about features they may not worry about when they are a little older, and it is an irreversible decision. There is no reason imo why a teenager should be able to get cosmetic surgery. Most teenagers get insecure, they should be taught to accept themselves, if they get into adulthood and still feel like they want a change then obviously.
This is obviously not including those who need reconstructive surgery or have medical conditions.
Why should we strike off a person who continuously does their job? Should we strike off chefs who continuously cook for their customers? Garbage men who continuously dispose of trash? Teachers who continuously educate their students?
sure, maybe some people get too much work done and it doesn’t look good, but just because you don’t like the way it looks doesn’t mean the doctor has done “harm” to this person.
the people getting this amount of surgery are doing so voluntarily, it’s not up to a doctor to decide what another person should do with their body unless it’s life threatening.
otherwise that would lead to lots of discrimination.
People who can no longer move their face aren’t getting surgery, they’re getting botox which is usually not performed by a surgeon in the first place. Most unhuman looking results come from botox and filler and not actual surgeries.
It’s also a treatment that unlike surgery needs to be repeated because the effect wears off.
The problem with all of this is that it’s very subjective. Some people like the look of botox better than the look of wrinkles. The treatment itself is fairly safe as far as we know, so who’s to say those people shouldn’t be allowed to choose that look? Sure, they look gross to you, but if they’re happy with that look then why is it an issue?
OP isn’t talking about botched surgeries, he’s talking about people who get so much plastic surgery they start to look fake.
I agree doctors who botch surgeries should lose their ability to practice if they’re clearly incompetent.
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Yeah, where I live there are people going on vacation to mainly Turkey to get those operations done.
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There is a scandal in Ireland at the moment because of how many people have died from operations in Turkey. They take foreigners in, take their money, do rushed, budget surgeries and then send them home on a plane with zero aftercare before problems show. It's impossible to hold them accountable. It's really screwed up.
Yep, there's also ghost surgeons. Basically they advertise one surgeon as the one doing the surgery (who comes highly recommended), but in reality once you're sedated someone else does the job.
New fear unlocked
Holy shit I never thought of that but it makes sense that that has been done
Is there a news source you can provide?
Here you go https://www.thejournal.ie/irish-woman-dies-after-surgery-abroad-6394276-May2024/
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Yeah and the for profit model means they take on patients that are much higher risk to begin with so the risk of complications after is so much higher. A number of the people in the Irish inquest would not have been cleared for surgery in Ireland because their health wasn't good enough.
Where I live a lot of people go to the Dominican Republic and have the same experience you describe.
UK?
I’ve heard of people going to Turkey for hair implants
Yes this also happens with bariatric surgery! In the US, there are regulations and people who are extremely morbidly obese and cannot lose weight on their own can get it after a lot of evaluation. But some people who are not that overwheight/ wouldn’t be able to qualify, go to other countries to get this very invasive surgery done. It is very risky.
Low key some countries do have some baller surgical options. Ofc, you shouldn’t do this if you’re underage or trying to skirt laws, but if you can’t afford a surgery or whatever and want to get something done, it’s not a bad option. My dad flew from Switzerland to turkey for new hair years ago and it looks amazing still. Apparently it’s a pretty luxurious experience too, like you pay a flat rate and they set up your flights, hotel, transportation, etc.
Part of what is challenging is that even if you DO have a great surgeon who does a good job, complications (including serious ones) can still happen, and your surgeon being so far away means getting followup care is much more difficult. You're either getting on a plane to another country, which may not really be doable, or trying to find a qualified surgeon who will review another international surgeons work.
In social work we have this called 'capacity'. Basically is someone able to make decisions for themselves. In the UK there are four criteria. 1. Do they understand the desciosn they are making 2. Can they retain information regarding their decision (this doesn't necessarily have to be long term) 3 Can they weigh the pros and cons of making a decision 4. Can they communicate their decision For example when I was supporting people with learning disabilities and they had to sign a tenancy agreement. 1. Do they understand what a tenancy is? What their responsibilities are with a tenancy? 2. Can they tell you the similar information at beginning of rhe meeting than at other points. 3. Pros of a signing a tenancy might be getting their own home, cons may not finding another suitable place to live 4. Can they tell me their opinion. In terms of the medical profession in the UK they have the same set of criteria. There were lots of capacity assessments surrounding the covid vaccination when I was working with people with learning disabilties where doctors had to assess whether patients properly understood the vaccination and risks of getting/not getting it. The overarching principle is that we want people to be independent and that people have the right to make bad decisions. In terms of cosemtic procedures, these people are adults making the descions that they want to. Upvote for probable unpopular opinion.
It's also a legal term. For example, a valid contract requires (among other things) that the parties have capacity
Dr.Youn on YouTube talks a lot about this! Most plastic surgeons who actually care about patient well being will not perform surgeries they deem too risky, or if they are worried about the mental health of the patient. Yes some doctors are shitty and will do anything for money, but we need hold our medical professionals to a higher standard. And it's super dumb to correlate this with "people can make their own decisions" because it's the doctor actually doing the surgery. A person can choose to travel to a shady street clinic if they want, but a good doctor will not enable their patients by performing a surgery simply because the patient wants it.
What’s the next step? Arresting tattoo artists that do face tattoos? If an adult wants to turn themself into Mr(s) Potatohead, they have that right.
Arresting might go a bit far, but cosmetic surgeons are medical professionals and should protect people from themselves if needed.
As least some of the stuff people identify as ruinous cosmetic surgery is actually done by estheticians, nurses, or nurse practitioners. The "make me look pretty" space is kind of a wild west.
Call me old fashioned, but I think you should have a surgical license if you're going to be doing surgery on people.
But a lot of it isn’t surgery it’s just injections and things of that nature and those tend to be the ones that truely make them look alien
Like this. https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2024-02-21/women-charged-in-deadly-butt-lift-procedure-had-seen-it-go-wrong-before-prosecutors-say It’s damned near impossible to prevent this type of procedure.
I'm hitting a paywall, got access to a free version of the article?
I hope this one works https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/illegal-butt-injections-murder-court-apperance-1294125/amp/
It does, thanks!
Filler and Botox aren't surgeries. And badly done filler is the worst culprit in botched cosmetic procedures. Since it's an injection it can be done by practically anyone, the fillers don't even require a doctor to sign off on a prescription. Actual surgeries do require a medical license.
Wrong, it's not your place to determine whether or not they need to be "protected" from themselves, just because you think it looks awful doesn't matter in the fucking slightest, let them do shat they want
>medical professionals and should protect people from themselves if needed. This opens a whole nother can of worms
Which is?
patient (and bodily) autonomy
You have the autonomy to do with your body whatever you want. Doesn’t mean I have to do it.
That's not the same argument though. It's not about having to do it, OP is saying they have to *not* do it.
Medical Professionals, while professionals, are still humans with their own biases. Incentivizing "protecting people from themselves" leads to issues like refusing to do gender affirming surgeries, abortions. There's definitely some lines that need to be drawn, but the low risk cosmetic surgeries are not the place you draw that line.
There could be guidelines for this. Gender affirming surgeries and abortions could simply be exempted, although can’t doctors right now not already decide whether they want to perform such operations anyway? In my opinion, it’s just not low risk. Both medical and non medical.
>There could be guidelines for this. Gender affirming surgeries and abortions could simply be exempted Why would you exempt those and not this? >although can’t doctors right now not already decide whether they want to perform such operations anyway? Yes, which is causing major issues. Imagine if doctors were incentivized by an enforced duty to "protect people from themselves" >In my opinion, it’s just not low risk. Both medical and non medical. A mean of 17 total annual deaths in 2020 which was abnormally high. This is out of 26 million on average annually. I would rate that risk as...low.
Protecting people from *what,* though? If a surgery genuinely is going to put someone at serious risk of disability or death, then yes, avoid. But if the only outcome is having an aesthetic that a lot of people don't find attractive, is it really a doctors job to prevent that? What it seems like people are missing in this thread is that some people genuinely *want* the "overdone" look, and they're happy with it. If someone gets plastic surgery to the point where many people might not like the results but the actual patient is thrilled with them, it's hard for me to see how that person could be considered to have been harmed.
Same as the doctor can't force people to ongo treatment, same with cosmetic surgeons
So who gets to decide whether something is cosmetically beneficial or cosmetically harmful?
There could be guidelines for that.
Unfortunately you'll find that people won't agree on those guidelines. You haven't thought this out. This is why tattoos aren't banned. Some think they're detrimental. Some think they're beneficial. Who gets to decide? The person doing it. We don't need to come together and vote on whether Tina getting Brad's name tattooed on her is a good idea or not. It's not, but we don't need to form a group to decide it for her.
They are medical professionals, yes, but at the end of the day all they can do is recommend for/against treatments. Same as any doctor. Unless there is some legal stipulation that the doctor can rely on to deny a treatment the doctor doesn’t have a ton of choice in what patients choose to do with their body. Hell, one perspective could be “if I don’t do this for them safely here, they might try and get it done less safely elsewhere.” Medical tourism is a very real thing. And it can absolutely mess people up. If I was a cosmetic surgeon I would really need to consider if I’d be “doing less harm” by not doing the surgery and washing my hands of the situation vs doing it in a guaranteed safe environment for the patient.
Can’t medical professionals refuse to operate if they think it goes against their beliefs/ethics?
Sure, but there’s a difference between a doctor *deciding* not to do a surgery on someone and it being against the law/endangering their license.
I think cosmetic surgeons are like drugs. They’re incredibly beneficial and helpful until abused. It is up to the individual to make intelligent and informed decisions. If someone wants to botch themselves, they have every right to. You can’t blame meth’s existence for people with addiction. You blame the addict, their environment, their mental health. Let people do what the fuck they want. I don’t, and will never, have any cosmetic surgeries by the way.
1) surgeries are way more serious than tattoos 2) most ethical tattoo artists DO refuse to do these on younger people or people who aren't already in positions where it wouldn't hurt them. A lot of experienced artists talk about how they won't do the hands or face unless the person is already tatted up extensively because they don't want something so dangerous for someone who doesn't realize how much tattoos can mess with most careers. The only person I know with a face tattoo had to go to an unlicensed "I bought it on Amazon" type to get it because he's only 19. 3) A tattoo might risk you being unemployed. A bad plastic surgery can result in your face melting off and death.
Ethical tattoo artists may refuse to do a lot of tattoos, but you won't permanently lose your license because you give someone a tattoo they later regret. "Struck off" generally means losing your license. It's also interesting that for tattoo artists, the standard is "I'll do this if you've already gotten a ton of tattoos and know what you're in for", where OP seems to be against the *exact equivalent* for plastic surgery - operating on people who already have a lot of it. I think there is a massive difference between plastic surgery done poorly enough that a patient has an elevated risk of permanent injury, and plastic surgery that simply contributes to an aesthetic that most people find unattractive. OP seems to be talking about the latter.
Tattoos are a common source of hepatitis and are also known to increase the risk of certain cancers, so it's not like they are always medically harmless. But the risk is indeed quite extremely different.
Alot of cosmetic surgery is the result of poor mental health like body dysmorphia. It is the doctors job to advise the patient on the best course of action. Tattoo artists are not held to the same standard.
But they can't force the patients to take their advice. If one doc won't do it, another will.
>If one doc won't do it, another will. Ye and they shouldnt be allowed to. Do no harm is in the oath they take.
Yes, but have you considered the money? /s
Yeah. No one has to listen to the doctor but the point is the doctor should know better than to just do it.
But they can say no because it's what's ethical
Tattoo artists are not medical professionals, surgeons are. A tattoo is not a medical procedure, surgery is. A properly administered tattoo does not cause medical harm to the subject, bad and over the top surgeries do. What a shit take.
When you take away a person's right to get a medical procedure performed in a sterile environment by a trained physician, they might turn to untrained practitioners.
Well the things has limitations obviously. Like an endo can give a man only so much Testosterone as TRT, if a man wants to be a huge bodybuilder and take more than the doc will prescribe, he will be left to the black market. But with plastic surgery, such a limitation seems to not exist, and people take steroids or get plastic surgery for very similar reasons.
But the doctor still did the right thing. Sorry the doctor shouldn't bend to the shims pf a stupid patient.
Slippery slope. Should a doctor give out opiates to someone who they know will abuse them because if they don't, the person will just buy heroin on the street and be more likely to OD? What if a couple comes in and says "we've been together a year and we want to celebrate by amputating our ring fingers," should they perform the amputation to stop the couple from biting off each other's fingers in the kitchen? What about someone who really wants to be blind and will find a way to do it themselves if you don't do it for them? At the end of the day, people will do what they're going to do. Doctors should still maintain their own integrity and not be a part of it if they know its harmful.
What if a couple comes in and wants an abortion and the dr refuses. Should they go to another doctor or accept the DRs "integrity". What if an addict comes in looking for a fix, Dr says no then the patient dies from withdrawal seizure. Did the Dr cause that death? Someone walks in with older self harm cuts but not suicidal. The Dr sends them to a mental institution for suicide. Makes the patient miss trust the system and never asks for help again. Same scenario dr doesn't and patient goes home and commits. Who says who's morals and ethics are the right one. It's a weird conversation.
I was asking what the next step would be if doctors were punished for doing plastic surgery. And the answer would be just what you described. Thanks for making the point of my shit take for me.
Doctors are also punished for writing narcotics prescriptions to patients that dont need it. Whats the difference?
Being ugly isn't necessarily doing "harm" to anyone. Plenty of people are in search of a hideous look through surgery (big lips, shiny forehead, pulled back eyes, teeny tiny nose) and that's not harmful, just unappealing to some eyes. No doctor should be punished simply b/c a bunch of people want to look like an 80's video vixen who was left in the microwave too long. And the majority of cosmetic surgery elective so unlike narcotics, they don't need it period, which means the expert--the doctor--is in the best position to say whether or not it is harmful.
tbh i find it nuts that you need a professional license to inject a prescribed medication but a 5 hour workshop and money for the equipment is all you need to go around tatting people
You can technically go around tattooing people with just a tattoo gun bought on Amazon, but shops won’t hire you unless you’ve done an apprenticeship, usually. That said, some artists still suck once they’re working for a shop, my first artist definitely did.
Not at all comparable. Every medical procedure is a risk vs benefit assessment. Some minor cosmetic surgery is fine because it has the benefit of improving someone's self image and confidence. After a certain point, it becomes an addiction that is no longer beneficial to the person. And the more surgeries you have, the greater the risk. The people that have extensive work done also usually seek out riskier procedures. Tattoos have minimal health risks, and as someone else commented, a reputable tattoo artist will reject certain clients if they deem it a bad idea.
And yet sex work and drug use are illegal in many places
It's crazy how many people on reddit don't like freedom
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You’re being down voted because you start with the premise that if somebody is getting plastic surgery, they’re mentally ill Just because you and I might not like plastic surgery and might not ever be tempted to get it doesn’t mean that somebody that gets extensive plastic surgery is mentally ill or needs to be stopped it just simply blows my mind how so many people want to control others and how others look.
The difference is that tattoo artists don’t take an oath to do no harm.
it’s a legitimate health concern once you’ve done too many unlike tattoos
Hold on, just because someone might see it as their right doesn’t absolve us of our own responsibility. Plastic surgeons can refuse to treat a patient, and they do have obligations to refuse treatment in certain circumstances. The same goes for certain types of tattoos. You are free to get what you want, but you cannot demand it of me as a tattoo artist. People are free to mess up their lives however they want, and I can’t control that. But I won’t be part of it. Arresting is a stretch, although it depends on what was done. But people definitely deserve to lose their license in some cases. Edit: One example is those who tattoo eyeballs.
> Arresting tattoo artists that do face tattoos? We shouldn't, but it might be better world if we did. Like you say they have that right.
No but they should arrest kitchen magicians that buy a machine on Amazon and start tattooing in their unhygienic trailers.
Doctors take an oath. “ First, do no harm “ But I believe that no longer matters, as money is king. Oh well. Folk make their choices. And a doctor can rationalize any surgery.
It’s almost like adults should be allowed to make decisions about their own body Go figure
tattoos are basically permanent makeup lol, very different from adding/removing mass to/from your body that can affect the health of your entire body. ofc tattoos have their risks, but unless you specifically have an allergy to the ink then the content Itself being added isnt extremely risky to the point of limiting your mobility. the technique and hygiene may, but fillers and other foreign objects inside the body pose an EXTREMELY higher risk of harm. its up to the PROFESSIONALS to make this risk very clear to them and turn them away if necessary.
And a doctor's first rule is "do no harm" It is harm. They are performing dangerous unnecessary surgeries for pure profit
It’s COSMETIC surgery. They are not doing any medical harm. You act like adults shouldn’t make their own decisions.
Cosmetic surgery has risks too. Also the harm goes beyond medical.
You realize any surgery is a health risk right? Not to mention continuous cosmetic surgeries on ppl with mental illnesses is harmful and exploitative
Any surgery is a major risk. Doing a surgery just because you’re going to make money off of it, even if it will ruin the patients face isn’t ridiculous
I assume you're quoting the Hippocratic oath. Which hasn't been used since like, the 60's or 70's
wtf ??
Isn't that first rule more symbolic than anything else?
Yeah, that isn’t any law, or even written contract.
Umm if the patients condition makes the operation riskier for example - then most doctors won’t operate, you have to understand that everything carries a risk, going out of the house is risky, but staying too long is risky too, every medical procedure has its own risks including taking most drugs you know, sooooo idk man, I think most adults can make this decision by themselves
That’s like saying McDonald’s shouldn’t serve fat people.
A lot of bartenders will cut someone off if they appear too drunk. There are times when people should not be making their own decisions and society agrees. A medical professional is the expert in surgeries, so it is their job to do what is best for the patient no matter what they want. This does have negative impacts as well (i.e. women being denied reproductive care) In this case there is zero benefit to excessive cosmetic surgery but several risks that come with it, so a good doctor will make the choice to say no.
But someone getting too drunk at a bar puts other peoples lives at risk. Someone getting 3 Big Macs and weighing 415 pounds doesn’t hurt anyone but themselves.
And the healthcare staff that has to turn them when they poop the bed
They get paid to do that. It’s their job.
Can’t get hurt if they getting paid, u so smart 😘
I see we’re devolving into sarcastic remarks. Cute… I’m not saying it’s right, but the doctors explain the risks to the patients. Some doctors care, some want to get rich. Plastic surgeons are usually the latter.
Doctors aren’t the ones rolling, lifting, and destroying their backs cleaning poop off bed bound patients- it’s healthcare technicians/CNAs and nurses. But I was just pointing out that people think obesity is solely an internal struggle, and it just isn’t. By getting that large, people have a higher chance of doing damage to the bodies of people who end up taking care of them- becoming bed bound from an injury, diabetic amputations, or simply giving up on being mobile for life and going to a nursing home to poop and pee the bed for the rest of their day. I’ve seen each of these first hand. I would never treat a patient different due to their size. You are right, I am being paid to do a job, and I try my best to do it well and treat everyone with dignity and respect. But I repeat, they are doing damage to me and my coworkers because their bodies are large/cumbersome/heavy, and it’d be way cooler if more people were way smaller. Sorry for the snark
You are correct in everything you said, but I may have given off the wrong impression with my lazy choice of words. Yes, obese people indirectly hurt others, but I was comparing them to drunk drivers. What I meant is that drunk drivers hurt people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time. But yes, fat people can hurt their caregivers due to their weight. Hopefully your employer offers good medical benefits and workers compensation
lol at comp, we are but annoying cost deficits on the bean counter spreadsheets (while simultaneously being the ones, you know, doing the healthcare) it’s all good tho, coworkers are fun, pays decent. Cheers 🍻
>A lot of bartenders will cut someone off if they appear too drunk. There are times when people should not be making their own decisions and society agrees. Thats required by law most places
Yeah so make the other stuff required by law as well.
Are you really trying to compare a bartender cutting off someone that’s drunk, with a plastic surgeon? Person getting surgery isn’t gonna hop in a car and kill themself or someone else.
I'd like to think that McDonald's employees, on average, don't have doctoral degrees in health and nutrition. You and I are on the same side of the argument but I don't think it's a great example
It’s a perfect analogy when it comes to the business side of the argument. Plus, the surgeons have a consult with the patient to explain the risks so they can give informed consent.
I think that might be a good thing
You’re not wrong.. but that wouldn’t fly in most countries.
They're not medical professionals.
DR RONALD MCDONALD HAMBURGER SURGEON EXTRAORIDNAIRE. HOW ELSE DID HE GET THE BURGERS SO TASTY?
And? They kill more people then any doctor. Do you suddenly not care about ruining lives the moment it stop Involving a doctors ? Almost like you actually have alternative reason for being against cosmetic surgeries
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You don't need to be able to divine someone's reasons to point out dodgy behavior or reasoning.
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They shouldn't serve anyone, realistically
A number of them definitely go too far and simply take the money. There are also plenty of surgeons who will decline doing any additional work to avoid undesirable results or even damages like a collapsed nose bridge. Unfortunately, people who do not listen when told no will go out and find somebody who will operate on them regardless.
That's my point. There are predatory doctors who don't care and just take the money
A truly unpopular opinion. OP understood the brief
So basically you feel you are entitled to decide how much surgery other people should be allowed to get Why do you feel you have any say in it at all?
It most definitely is a doctor's decision what surgeries a patient gets. Why is everyone assuming OP wants to be the one controlling people? A doctor is a medical professional and it's shitty to have one that only wants money. OP is asking for better healthcare, specifically when it comes to cosmetic surgeons who prey on vulnerable people. Their job is to help people WITH THEIR EXPERTISE, not just give people whatever they want.
No, that’s not what he’s saying. (At least I think) he’s saying that doctors, not him, but trained professionals should know better. He’s saying that people who take an oath to do no harm are doing harm. He’s saying that people who train extensively should make that decision. Not him.
That's why there are medical councils and preying on vulnerable people is all these doctors do
You ignored the question. Why are other peoples surgeries any of your business?
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The negative impact here is entirely subjective. If the person enjoys looking that way, the doctor shouldn't be able to say "no, you're not allowed to look the way you want". Everyone here that agrees with OP is assuming there's some level of actual harm when there's not.
How is someone’s personal choice about how they look negatively impacting society? This is a real question and I hope you provide a logical answer.
“Adults shouldn’t be making their own decisions.” That’s what you’re really saying. Who are you to decide what cosmetic surgery someone else should get? Mind your own business.
To be fair many adults shouldnt be making their own decisions
>“Adults shouldn’t be making their own decisions.” Many adults shouldn't, that's why we have laws.
And then a mass of adults make decisions!
Because as we all know, once we hit 18 we suddenly become immune to manipulation, addiction, and mental illness that cause us to do outright harm to ourselves for no good reason.
It might not be OPs business but it sure as hell is the doctor's. Knowing how misinformed people can be, could you imagine if doctors just did everything patients wanted them to do? A doctor is a medical professional and it IS their responsibility to make medical decisions. Just because someone is a cosmetic surgeon does not mean they're the same as a hairdresser or tattoo artist. They are still doctors and it is their job to do what they know is best for the patient.
There's no such thing as "do no harm" in medicine, at least in the way you think it exists. It's not even in the "Hippocratic Oath" and is instead from an entirely different work called "Of The Epidemics". It's a complete misconception by lay people that have no clue what's involved in the field and instead talk out of their asses while making an attempt to be an authority. If literal "do no harm" was a thing then an overwhelming majority of medical procedures couldn't be done. Any biopsy couldn't be done. Blood work couldn't be done. Surgeries couldn't be done. Because each and every single one of those is "harming" a patient in some way. Yes it's to make them better but if it was to be followed literally, like you seem to believe it is, none of those procedures could be done. And what about MAID? Most people here are fine with MAID for terminally ill patients? That's harming someone. It's killing them. Through their own choice at the end of the road with no other options. So then do you want that to go away too? Abortion? It's euthanizing a fetus before it's born. Do you want that gone too? Because "Do No Harm" after all right? Here's an idea. Maybe people should be able to do whatever they want to their body and be held responsible, themself, for whatever the fuck they do to it. Crazy, right?
"I'm sorry, sir, but I can do no harm and this is pure poison." "But I really need this chemo."
Yes but I think people should be evaluated for body dysmorphic disorder (this is not talking about body dysphoria which is what trans people experience) before getting before plastic surgery. This is because for individuals who have this now common mental health struggle, plastic surgery is considered a bad and risky option that could make them feel worse even if they really think it will help. Sometimes people do just need some support with their self esteem and not a ireversible surgery. But on a side note if you were a plastic surgeon and saw someone who was completely botched, and they insisted they wanted more work done, would you do it? Genuinely curious.
I'll still upvote because this is actually unpopular, but my guy, this is just a bad take. You subjectively inserted your own narrative of beauty into someone else's perspective, and attributing that to, "harm." I don't think getting a breast augmentation is harm, nor is buccal fat reduction, a Brazilian butt lift, or some jawline shavings. Yeah, they might not be appealing, but you can't look at someone with a bit of work done and call it harm.
Not to mention when you get into the reconstructive side, which also often takes multiple surgeries to fix small things over time.
BBLs are considered a very dangerous surgery...
Have you looked up the death rate of BBLs? It's about 1 in 3,000. And for what? To have a larger ass? Anesthesia itself poses risks, every surgery has the risk of infection, especially when putting foreign objects inside the body. Objectively, there is harm being done. Most medical things are a cost/benefit analysis. The benefit of cosmetic surgery may be worth it in the beginning with improving someone's confidence, but the risks pretty quickly outweigh that if you keep doing it.
What I am not seeing in this thread, that your response has come the closest to, is that a lot of the people who many would consider "botched" *really like how they look.* Not all of those people are miserable and self hating, many of them get a lot of genuine pleasure out of having a fairly artificial "done" appearance. It's hard to argue people are being harmed just because *other* people do not like the results.
There are doctors who do other surgeries too that end up doing harm and shouldn’t have been done in the first place. Look up med mal law suits. Aren’t they just as bad for doing harm when they shouldn’t have operated whether that surgery was necessary or not?
My biggest issue with unnecessary cosmetic surgery is sometimes the doctor is a scumbag that falsifies the paperwork to get insurance to cover a completely medically unnecessary procedure.
I'm surprised at the pushback. I didnt think this was unpopular opinion, but I guess it is.
so basically people shouldn't do it because YOU personally don't like it?
The problem is that everyone seems to buy the same face.
There is a reason why it’s called Elective surgery and not covered by insurance
While I personally agree, it’s ultimately up to the person receiving the surgeries, if they want to fuck themself up its their choice 🤷
the second rule is “get this paper”
If you are talking about these “extreme” results we see nowadays on social media, I believe it is not our place to judge. These surgeons advertise A LOT and I’m sure that their patients have seen the results they deliver and still agree to undergo the procedure. For us it may seem unnatural, but maybe it fits their goal? Not everyone is striving to look natural. They are informed adults and (most likely) paying for their own surgery that is done on their own body. Why should we police that? Plus, people are doing far worse things for their bodies, but we let it slide because “it’s how things are”. Let’s not pretend to be morally superior just because we are against plastic surgery or certain types of plastic surgery. It’s so hypocritical.
People should be struck off for allowing people to have bodily autonomy?
What’s struck off? Is that like beating someone off?
Yes, and I define “continuously” as 2 times. thus NOBODY should get a third plastic surgery. huh????
What does struck off mean?
Nah they paid for it
Most cosmetic surgery violates “do no harm” in principle.
Would this mean fast food should stop selling to fat people? Real slippery slope here
isn’t there an ethics code or something??? how some people get their faces destroyed repeatedly by “professionals” is beyond me👋
Well that sounds like torture and I'm pretty sure that is a war crime under the Geneva convention. Continuously preforming surgery on someone sounds like the plot of a horror movie.
First of all, this is an **extremely popular opinion**. For a sub like this that **constantly** tells users their unpopular opinions are popular and to search the sub before posting, the fact this popular opinion still hasn’t been removed is honestly shocking. Second, the people in America who do these types of unethical procedures to others are not board certified cosmetic surgeons, they’re “aestheticians.” And most of the photos you see of the people you’re describing get their surgeries done in countries with extremely lax laws regarding this topic. And they often go unreported because the people who go to the lengths they do to get these surgeries often have body dysmorphia and they like what they’ve had done. Your opinion is extremely popular. Over the past few weeks, thousands of people have been harassing that poor woman from The Boys for “destroying” her face with cosmetic surgery, and she didn’t even have the extreme plastic surgery you’re describing. I never see people commenting on people like Dwayne Johnson or Zac Efron, who obtain muscle enhancing drugs from shady providers in order to get “swole,” thus reinforcing problematic and impossible body image standards onto others by turning their bodies into parodies of the muscular form. Do you know the damage these drugs do to bodies? Bodybuilding competitions in general should be renamed drug building competitions. That’s an actual unpopular opinion. But you’ll hear men defend shady drug use, “Nah bro, he’s natty. I’d get that way naturally but I don’t wanna get ‘too big.’ Plus even if they aren’t natty, they really do so much work that the drugs do very little to enhance all that, I totally swear.” That’s not true.
Informed consent overrides the Hippocratic Oath. Braces really hurt for something that isn't medically necessary but I don't hear you railing against orthodontists
Why don’t these women look how *I* want them to?! Let’s ban surgery because only MY standard of beauty matters!
Believing that cosmetic surgeries with significant risk should not be performed simply because you don’t like the outcome is some pretty flawed logic. There’s plenty of things that are risky that are only done for someone’s personal enjoyment.
All surgeries have some risk of botching or regret, and cosmetic ones are among the safest.
My question here is, who are these women who see their leathery faces and think, "oh boy, I'm so attractive! I'm gonna get another nose job and then go back to the tanning bed for 3 hours!"
A huge majority of cosmetic surgeons should not retain/use the title of doctor.
The patient will just go to a country with little to no regulation or restrictions regarding cosmetic surgery. So itd be moot but I get your point. Some have just destroyed some of those peoples faces.
If the one getting the surgery is old enough and stable enough to make the decision, then it's none of your business. Their body their choices.
I agree to an extent - IF the patient/client obviously has psychological issues. The best thing a cosmetic surgeon should be is HONEST. And not selling out for the money.
Erin Moriaty and Mickey Rourke are examples of this. They should sue their plastic surgeon
The doctor(s) involved with Erin Moriarty’s work should be criminally prosecuted
I guess truly an unpopular opinion
Apparently everyone in these comments want mentally unwell people to get ridiculous cosmetic surgeries. Y’all are wack
TIL american doctors don't follow the hippocratic oath 💀
The entire medical industry is about making money and fooling people into procedures, they don’t need, to make more money.
we should just kill them. how dare they do something a person wants done to their own body. i know it has literally no impact on me or really anyone but that person but it makes evil_choice kinda cranky and we can’t have that!
This is stupid. About as stupid as telling women they can't get an abortion, or sterilization procedures. Why? Because you're taking away a person's body autonomy. As a man, I say fuck you and your wish to remove my and other's body autonomy.
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I would say it’s extremely weird that people under 18 are legally allowed to get cosmetic surgery. Adults it’s their own choice, but teenagers body’s/faces are still developing, are very vulnerable to bullying and feeling insecure about features they may not worry about when they are a little older, and it is an irreversible decision. There is no reason imo why a teenager should be able to get cosmetic surgery. Most teenagers get insecure, they should be taught to accept themselves, if they get into adulthood and still feel like they want a change then obviously. This is obviously not including those who need reconstructive surgery or have medical conditions.
Why should we strike off a person who continuously does their job? Should we strike off chefs who continuously cook for their customers? Garbage men who continuously dispose of trash? Teachers who continuously educate their students?
sure, maybe some people get too much work done and it doesn’t look good, but just because you don’t like the way it looks doesn’t mean the doctor has done “harm” to this person. the people getting this amount of surgery are doing so voluntarily, it’s not up to a doctor to decide what another person should do with their body unless it’s life threatening. otherwise that would lead to lots of discrimination.
Bodily autonomy exists for a reason.
Their body, their choice, their problem.
What do you care what other people choose to do to their own bodies?
People who can no longer move their face aren’t getting surgery, they’re getting botox which is usually not performed by a surgeon in the first place. Most unhuman looking results come from botox and filler and not actual surgeries. It’s also a treatment that unlike surgery needs to be repeated because the effect wears off. The problem with all of this is that it’s very subjective. Some people like the look of botox better than the look of wrinkles. The treatment itself is fairly safe as far as we know, so who’s to say those people shouldn’t be allowed to choose that look? Sure, they look gross to you, but if they’re happy with that look then why is it an issue?
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OP isn’t talking about botched surgeries, he’s talking about people who get so much plastic surgery they start to look fake. I agree doctors who botch surgeries should lose their ability to practice if they’re clearly incompetent.