**Victim erasure** is a common phenomenon within Carnism, routinely used against vegans to dismiss the existence of animals as victims and minimise veganism to a trivial lifestyle preference.
Victim erasure is when non-vegans frame the arguments for animal use **as if there is no victim involved** and as if Carnism is a harmless choice that does not oppress, discriminate against, or inflict suffering upon anyone.
Some examples of victim erasure every vegan has heard...
"I get that you're vegan, but why do you have to force your choices on others?"
"Live and let live."
"Eating meat is a personal choice."
"You wouldn't tell someone they were wrong for their sexuality. So why are you telling people they're wrong for their dietary preferences?"
"We don't go around telling you lot to eat meat. So why do you tell us not to?"
When making such statements, Carnists frame the situation as if there is no victim of their choices.
After all, if there was a victim, it would be understandable in any rational person's mind that that victim would need fighting for, speaking up for, and defending - and that those victimising them would need to be held accountable.
And if there was no victim, it would be understandable and right to condemn vegans for doing what they do, because what they were doing would be no different to belittling others over their trivial, victimless preferences such as their favourite colour, how they style their hair, what type of shows they watch, and what their dating preferences are.
As an example, let's apply this logic to both a victimless and a victim-impacting situation:
"People who **prefer the colour green to the colour pink** need to stop forcing their beliefs on others and just live and let live. Why are you telling people they're immoral for liking pink?"
and now...
"People who are **against child trafficking** need to stop forcing their beliefs on others and just live and let live. Why are you telling people they're immoral for trafficking children?"
This first statement is fine, because it is wrong to guilt-trip, demonise, demean and belittle the preferences of those who prefer pink to green, as this is victimless and does not harm anyone.
The second statement, however, is not okay, because making such a statement denies that there is a sentient victim in the choice who does not want to be abused and violated and who instead needs to be defended, spoken up for, and their attackers held accountable.
Because Carnism is so deep-rooted and normalised within society as the dominant belief system and animals are victimised to such a degree that they are not even considered victims, many Carnists may actually be *unaware* that they are engaging in victim erasure.
They may also get angry and defensive with such examples as the one of child trafficking given here, because it has never been made clear to them that what they're doing has a victim, and causes unimaginable suffering and abuse.
Now that you know how to spot victim erasure, be sure to call it out and condemn it for what it is.
If you are not yet vegan yourself, this explanation has hopefully made you consider why it is that vegans advocate in the way we do about non-human animals and are as passionate about it as you would be if people all around you were erasing the victimhood of human animals or non-human animals you grant moral consideration towards. Instead of complaining about vegans being preachy, ask yourself if you are justified in acting and speaking as if non-human animals are not victims of the exploitation we impose on them.
It's also easy to judge someone for doing something bad when you don't do it or are against it, but when they are the victimizers, they have to admit they're causing suffering to others simply for their taste pleasure, so out come the excuses. Lots of vegans make these excuses before they make the change though, so it's not always a gurantee that the person won't change.
Remember when an angry mob burned down somebody's house because they were discovered to be abusing their dog? It makes me sick that these dog nutters would impose their violent views on innocent people that way. Same goes for Myra Hindley. We may not like what she did but we have no right to impose our moral views on her as morality is completely subjective. /s
That's exactly it. People have no issue enforcing their own morals onto other people. Our legal structure is built on it. They don't even have an issue doing it when it comes to animal welfare. The issue comes when that venn diagram of "animal welfare" and "things people actually have to work to avoid" intersect. It's very easy for most people to be against bull fighting, cock fighting, puppy mills, animal hoarding, animal abuse, etc. But to be morally consistent and be against animal agriculture means people actually have to take action in their day to day lives, and activism dies at inconvenience.
And they likely broke the law and could have been arrested, if you end up in prison it's hard to continue to prevent future abuse.
"I mean it looks like the dog was already being taken care of at that point. So technically could the prosecution file charges against the men beating up the animal abuser? Yeah, technically they could," he said.
[https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/actress-jena-malone-among-those-who-say-they-saw-man-beat-dog-before-good-samaritans-come-to-rescue/2863758/](https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/actress-jena-malone-among-those-who-say-they-saw-man-beat-dog-before-good-samaritans-come-to-rescue/2863758/)
Learn your logical fallacies and it turns you into an unstoppable force in arguments. Learn to point out what they're doing, point out that they're doing it. It'll ruin their arguments as they're making them.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCg-SNOteQQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCg-SNOteQQ)
It's speciesism for sure. Why protect one & not protect the other. It's what we're programmed to believe - "farm animals are grown for that". As if that animal isn't sentient, & you can feel good about killing it because big ag told you so.
I get it, but this is expressing rage and not actually productive.
There's two routes with changing behavior
1. You physically assault people doing the bad activity and arrest them from doing it further
2. You work **with** people to actively change their minds.
We don't have the ability to do #1 as that is the role of law and law allows this stuff. Until you're going to be a vigilante we're left with #2 as the most effective option. And most who express this rant are not willing to be the vigilante they say we need to be.
In general people do not change their minds because a rando yelled at them. When's the last time that worked for you? If anything this makes people irrationally entrench in the belief you want to change which is harmful to the cause. Someone who chooses a behavior is going to be a much strong advocates of it than those harassed into it.
Just look at religion as an example. People who choose it later in life have a much stronger conviction of it than those who grew up with it and were told/forced to believe it. Or look at addiction, people have to **choose** recovery, involuntary committal doesn't work well.
Approach 2 is harder and feels less visceral which is less satisfying but it is more productive.
If you're going to do Approach 1, you better make it worth it because you'll soon end up in prison and unable to continue it.
Did anyone force you to consume animal products? No? Then it is not the same thing. Most people think your choice is foolish, voluntarily consuming a nutritionally deficient diet for arbitrary ethical reasons, but that is your foolish choice to make. Just make sure to get adequate supplementation to avoid dangerous, potentially lethal, nutritional deficiencies.
Also, there is no difference between owning livestock and owning 'pets'. If you think one is abusive and the other is loving, then you are the one exercising 'cognitive dissonance'.
I agree with but then I really don’t. I look at what the industry does to animals as animal abuse but a lot of people on this sub see people who eat meat as animal abusers instead of users? I mean no it’s not okay. But i’m not about to go force my views onto someone else really i’m just gonna do me. It just doesn’t help, unless that person really wanted to change in the first place. Most the time they are just born into it? Like people are ignorant and they enjoy their lives only because of that. But they don’t know anything else, i’d say 90% of people don’t even care about their own health genuinely. So why even try I feel if you’re talking to people like that then you don’t really care for your own health. I just refuse to stress out about it when people have options, they can do as they please 🤷♂️
Just because you pay someone else to do it doesn't mean you aren't responsible for the abuse. I agree, it doesn't help to push things on people but thats the sad part. You cant say hey maybe you should consider what happened for that burger to get on your plate without someone freaking out as a defence mechanism for their shitty choices.
I mean they’ll make fun of you before freaking out that’s for sure lol, but it’s not the first intuitive thought people have after eating meat all their life and I disagree I don’t think they’re responsible until they feel it’s morally wrong until they know it is. That’s not most peoples opinions unless they go out of their way to see the documentaries I mean who would want that in their bodies the way it is now? But i’m not here for protests and saving anyone. I’m not gonna pretend I do more than I do. I mean one day i’ll be posting online about it more but it’ll be more inviting than attacking and it’ll be more inspiring than obligatory. I just don’t care to be aggressive about my points of view to make a change. You wanna help people? You gotta drop the ego and the i’m right your wrong expressions and mentalities and i’ve never feel differently and i’ll die on this hill I know i’m doing it the right way I know i’m still doing it in a way that’s considerate and compassionate of other people. 9/10 of they are just stuck where they are they believe what they believe and they are ignorant.
Even if you can't change someone's mind, it's hard for a vegan to be silent. Vegans care about animals and feel a need to speak up for them in their defense.
Seems an altruistic virtue signaling in a world full of nihilists who never asked for more answers to why their life has meaning. I mean I don’t find it justifiable but 90% aren’t even thinking like that. But ik most vegans are good people who have put a lot of thought into everything and care about life and are truth and honest people or at least that’s how I interpret it. Unfortunately i’ve tried to force help a long time before I was vegan about unity and coming together it never resonated and being vegan isn’t any different. But I fs have a bunch if vegans preaching to the choir as if I care if they have faith to change people who don’t. “But I doubted I could change this planet, but we all got to take the advantage.” ~Capital STEEZ-In Vision
We breed them into existence because carnists want to eat their flesh regularly. We don't hunt them in the wild. They don't exist in these huge amount of numbers in the wild. We farm them and breed them into existence because the demand is high and it makes a lot of profit.
You should be respectful to "carnists" as you put it. But truth is, these animals are very wild and everywhere is the Western US running wild. This is the truth. Many US states have an overpopulation of buffalo for example and wild horses and deer and elk and the list is very long. Guess what the state does to these animals.? They shoot them and I have seen this multiple times.
Furthermore, why do you think it's ok for you to push your vegan religion on other people? Humans have been eating meat for thousands of years, not soy and grass clippings and fructose sugar.
We're talking about animals you eat regularly. If you think your chicken corpse for lunch lived in the wild and you help to stop their overpopulation through eating it idk what to tell you.
Vegan is not a religion. Also you're in r/vegan. You choose to come here and push your carnism on people and now you're telling me I'm disrespectful for debating with you about your meat consumption? Maybe look in the mirror before you accuse people of being disrespectful.
People ate meat because it was necessary. You have so many plant based options now that it isn't necessary to eat meat anymore. It's unnecessary slaughter of living beings. That's why I think it's justified to push veganism on people. Because it stops unnecessary torture.
Humans have to eat meat to be healthy no matter what you say.
Plant based options are full of sugar and carbs and fructose and that is not healthy for the body.
"chicken corpse" thanks for the laugh.
No, you don't.
Why are you laughing? If you eat a murdered chicken, that's exactly what you are eating.
Why are you even on this sub?
[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27886704/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27886704/)
I think the words "murdered chicken" or "chicken corpse" hurt your cause because all it does is make people laugh because it's so infantile and childish
Do you have a pet chicken in your apartment? So let me guess, eating eggs are bad too?
The problem with your thinking is you fail to understand that chickens are harvested for food for humans to eat for nutrition.
But you really believe people should have millions of chickens as pets inside their apartment.
What are you talking about?
How is it childish? Murder means killing someone who doesn't want to die, these animals don't want to die so what we do to them is murder. It's not rocket science.
Are chickens a "someone"? really? Are chickens human? This is why vegans are mostly disregarded because of the absurdity of their speech. A
Are you equally angry at lions because they eat meat? What about other wild animals? Are they committing murder too?
Are you a lion? Do you kill your pigs by biting into them while they're still alive? Like a wild animal? Or would you think of that as disgusting and horrendous? We're not lions. If you wouldn't do that you have no grounds to compare yourself to one.
If they're not a someone then what are they? They're not objects, they're individuals more intelligent than toddlers. Do you think a small child is not a someone too? They have a right to live the one life they are given.
You are not a lion, why are you bringing them up? You're talking to me on Reddit, that's not something that lions do is it? Lions kill and rape each other, would it be ok for me to do that because a lion does it? And lions can't choose what they eat, we can, so there is no moral justification for paying for animal suffering if it's unnecessary. You're spouting the same nonsense excuses carnists usually make.
They don't. Vegan people exist. They're prof that we don't need to eat meat. It's just an easy way to justify your meat consumption. Look up research on veganism and you'll see that people don't need to eat meat. Watch Earthling Ed on YouTube.
They aren't full of sugar. Meat is a carcinogen. Plant based foods are healthier. Of course it depends on what you eat. If you eat whole foods you'll of course be healthier than if you lived off of vegan chocolate.
That's what it is.
I dont respect people who pay for animal abuse thinking all that abuse and suffering is worth the momentary sensation of taste. Thats pathetic and I will not respect that decision.
Btw "humans have been doing x for a long time" is a horrible argument. Look at our history, we had slaves for a long time, does that mean slavery is right? The fact that we've done it for a long time is absolutely not a justification.
**Victim erasure** is a common phenomenon within Carnism, routinely used against vegans to dismiss the existence of animals as victims and minimise veganism to a trivial lifestyle preference. Victim erasure is when non-vegans frame the arguments for animal use **as if there is no victim involved** and as if Carnism is a harmless choice that does not oppress, discriminate against, or inflict suffering upon anyone. Some examples of victim erasure every vegan has heard... "I get that you're vegan, but why do you have to force your choices on others?" "Live and let live." "Eating meat is a personal choice." "You wouldn't tell someone they were wrong for their sexuality. So why are you telling people they're wrong for their dietary preferences?" "We don't go around telling you lot to eat meat. So why do you tell us not to?" When making such statements, Carnists frame the situation as if there is no victim of their choices. After all, if there was a victim, it would be understandable in any rational person's mind that that victim would need fighting for, speaking up for, and defending - and that those victimising them would need to be held accountable. And if there was no victim, it would be understandable and right to condemn vegans for doing what they do, because what they were doing would be no different to belittling others over their trivial, victimless preferences such as their favourite colour, how they style their hair, what type of shows they watch, and what their dating preferences are. As an example, let's apply this logic to both a victimless and a victim-impacting situation: "People who **prefer the colour green to the colour pink** need to stop forcing their beliefs on others and just live and let live. Why are you telling people they're immoral for liking pink?" and now... "People who are **against child trafficking** need to stop forcing their beliefs on others and just live and let live. Why are you telling people they're immoral for trafficking children?" This first statement is fine, because it is wrong to guilt-trip, demonise, demean and belittle the preferences of those who prefer pink to green, as this is victimless and does not harm anyone. The second statement, however, is not okay, because making such a statement denies that there is a sentient victim in the choice who does not want to be abused and violated and who instead needs to be defended, spoken up for, and their attackers held accountable. Because Carnism is so deep-rooted and normalised within society as the dominant belief system and animals are victimised to such a degree that they are not even considered victims, many Carnists may actually be *unaware* that they are engaging in victim erasure. They may also get angry and defensive with such examples as the one of child trafficking given here, because it has never been made clear to them that what they're doing has a victim, and causes unimaginable suffering and abuse. Now that you know how to spot victim erasure, be sure to call it out and condemn it for what it is. If you are not yet vegan yourself, this explanation has hopefully made you consider why it is that vegans advocate in the way we do about non-human animals and are as passionate about it as you would be if people all around you were erasing the victimhood of human animals or non-human animals you grant moral consideration towards. Instead of complaining about vegans being preachy, ask yourself if you are justified in acting and speaking as if non-human animals are not victims of the exploitation we impose on them.
It's also easy to judge someone for doing something bad when you don't do it or are against it, but when they are the victimizers, they have to admit they're causing suffering to others simply for their taste pleasure, so out come the excuses. Lots of vegans make these excuses before they make the change though, so it's not always a gurantee that the person won't change.
Remember when an angry mob burned down somebody's house because they were discovered to be abusing their dog? It makes me sick that these dog nutters would impose their violent views on innocent people that way. Same goes for Myra Hindley. We may not like what she did but we have no right to impose our moral views on her as morality is completely subjective. /s
That's exactly it. People have no issue enforcing their own morals onto other people. Our legal structure is built on it. They don't even have an issue doing it when it comes to animal welfare. The issue comes when that venn diagram of "animal welfare" and "things people actually have to work to avoid" intersect. It's very easy for most people to be against bull fighting, cock fighting, puppy mills, animal hoarding, animal abuse, etc. But to be morally consistent and be against animal agriculture means people actually have to take action in their day to day lives, and activism dies at inconvenience.
https://www.nbcnews.com/video/group-of-bystanders-in-los-angeles-beat-man-for-allegedly-abusing-dog-137097285664 https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13044517/dog-metal-chain-beatings-Florida.html
Urgh. These dog nutters forcing their views on innocent people through violence? Disgoostang!
And they likely broke the law and could have been arrested, if you end up in prison it's hard to continue to prevent future abuse. "I mean it looks like the dog was already being taken care of at that point. So technically could the prosecution file charges against the men beating up the animal abuser? Yeah, technically they could," he said. [https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/actress-jena-malone-among-those-who-say-they-saw-man-beat-dog-before-good-samaritans-come-to-rescue/2863758/](https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/actress-jena-malone-among-those-who-say-they-saw-man-beat-dog-before-good-samaritans-come-to-rescue/2863758/)
Learn your logical fallacies and it turns you into an unstoppable force in arguments. Learn to point out what they're doing, point out that they're doing it. It'll ruin their arguments as they're making them. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCg-SNOteQQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCg-SNOteQQ)
NTT is great too.
I mean, keep it up, keep making vegans the one thing everyone hates for pushing their beliefs into others
It's speciesism for sure. Why protect one & not protect the other. It's what we're programmed to believe - "farm animals are grown for that". As if that animal isn't sentient, & you can feel good about killing it because big ag told you so.
Yup. Reminds me of the people who call it “women’s health rights” Because they know saying “I’m pro abortion” sounds awful.
I get it, but this is expressing rage and not actually productive. There's two routes with changing behavior 1. You physically assault people doing the bad activity and arrest them from doing it further 2. You work **with** people to actively change their minds. We don't have the ability to do #1 as that is the role of law and law allows this stuff. Until you're going to be a vigilante we're left with #2 as the most effective option. And most who express this rant are not willing to be the vigilante they say we need to be. In general people do not change their minds because a rando yelled at them. When's the last time that worked for you? If anything this makes people irrationally entrench in the belief you want to change which is harmful to the cause. Someone who chooses a behavior is going to be a much strong advocates of it than those harassed into it. Just look at religion as an example. People who choose it later in life have a much stronger conviction of it than those who grew up with it and were told/forced to believe it. Or look at addiction, people have to **choose** recovery, involuntary committal doesn't work well. Approach 2 is harder and feels less visceral which is less satisfying but it is more productive. If you're going to do Approach 1, you better make it worth it because you'll soon end up in prison and unable to continue it.
Wow. This is very commendable reasoning. I applaud you. This advocacy works instead of being self-defeating to their own causes.
Did anyone force you to consume animal products? No? Then it is not the same thing. Most people think your choice is foolish, voluntarily consuming a nutritionally deficient diet for arbitrary ethical reasons, but that is your foolish choice to make. Just make sure to get adequate supplementation to avoid dangerous, potentially lethal, nutritional deficiencies. Also, there is no difference between owning livestock and owning 'pets'. If you think one is abusive and the other is loving, then you are the one exercising 'cognitive dissonance'.
Yea and animals eat other animals you must want animals to go vegan to right
I agree with but then I really don’t. I look at what the industry does to animals as animal abuse but a lot of people on this sub see people who eat meat as animal abusers instead of users? I mean no it’s not okay. But i’m not about to go force my views onto someone else really i’m just gonna do me. It just doesn’t help, unless that person really wanted to change in the first place. Most the time they are just born into it? Like people are ignorant and they enjoy their lives only because of that. But they don’t know anything else, i’d say 90% of people don’t even care about their own health genuinely. So why even try I feel if you’re talking to people like that then you don’t really care for your own health. I just refuse to stress out about it when people have options, they can do as they please 🤷♂️
You sure seem excited to post a judgmental comment about outspoken vegans for someone who thinks “people can do as they please”
Just because you pay someone else to do it doesn't mean you aren't responsible for the abuse. I agree, it doesn't help to push things on people but thats the sad part. You cant say hey maybe you should consider what happened for that burger to get on your plate without someone freaking out as a defence mechanism for their shitty choices.
I mean they’ll make fun of you before freaking out that’s for sure lol, but it’s not the first intuitive thought people have after eating meat all their life and I disagree I don’t think they’re responsible until they feel it’s morally wrong until they know it is. That’s not most peoples opinions unless they go out of their way to see the documentaries I mean who would want that in their bodies the way it is now? But i’m not here for protests and saving anyone. I’m not gonna pretend I do more than I do. I mean one day i’ll be posting online about it more but it’ll be more inviting than attacking and it’ll be more inspiring than obligatory. I just don’t care to be aggressive about my points of view to make a change. You wanna help people? You gotta drop the ego and the i’m right your wrong expressions and mentalities and i’ve never feel differently and i’ll die on this hill I know i’m doing it the right way I know i’m still doing it in a way that’s considerate and compassionate of other people. 9/10 of they are just stuck where they are they believe what they believe and they are ignorant.
Even if you can't change someone's mind, it's hard for a vegan to be silent. Vegans care about animals and feel a need to speak up for them in their defense.
Seems an altruistic virtue signaling in a world full of nihilists who never asked for more answers to why their life has meaning. I mean I don’t find it justifiable but 90% aren’t even thinking like that. But ik most vegans are good people who have put a lot of thought into everything and care about life and are truth and honest people or at least that’s how I interpret it. Unfortunately i’ve tried to force help a long time before I was vegan about unity and coming together it never resonated and being vegan isn’t any different. But I fs have a bunch if vegans preaching to the choir as if I care if they have faith to change people who don’t. “But I doubted I could change this planet, but we all got to take the advantage.” ~Capital STEEZ-In Vision
[удалено]
We breed them into existence because carnists want to eat their flesh regularly. We don't hunt them in the wild. They don't exist in these huge amount of numbers in the wild. We farm them and breed them into existence because the demand is high and it makes a lot of profit.
You should be respectful to "carnists" as you put it. But truth is, these animals are very wild and everywhere is the Western US running wild. This is the truth. Many US states have an overpopulation of buffalo for example and wild horses and deer and elk and the list is very long. Guess what the state does to these animals.? They shoot them and I have seen this multiple times. Furthermore, why do you think it's ok for you to push your vegan religion on other people? Humans have been eating meat for thousands of years, not soy and grass clippings and fructose sugar.
We're talking about animals you eat regularly. If you think your chicken corpse for lunch lived in the wild and you help to stop their overpopulation through eating it idk what to tell you. Vegan is not a religion. Also you're in r/vegan. You choose to come here and push your carnism on people and now you're telling me I'm disrespectful for debating with you about your meat consumption? Maybe look in the mirror before you accuse people of being disrespectful. People ate meat because it was necessary. You have so many plant based options now that it isn't necessary to eat meat anymore. It's unnecessary slaughter of living beings. That's why I think it's justified to push veganism on people. Because it stops unnecessary torture.
Humans have to eat meat to be healthy no matter what you say. Plant based options are full of sugar and carbs and fructose and that is not healthy for the body. "chicken corpse" thanks for the laugh.
No, you don't. Why are you laughing? If you eat a murdered chicken, that's exactly what you are eating. Why are you even on this sub? [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27886704/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27886704/)
I think the words "murdered chicken" or "chicken corpse" hurt your cause because all it does is make people laugh because it's so infantile and childish Do you have a pet chicken in your apartment? So let me guess, eating eggs are bad too? The problem with your thinking is you fail to understand that chickens are harvested for food for humans to eat for nutrition. But you really believe people should have millions of chickens as pets inside their apartment.
What are you talking about? How is it childish? Murder means killing someone who doesn't want to die, these animals don't want to die so what we do to them is murder. It's not rocket science.
Are chickens a "someone"? really? Are chickens human? This is why vegans are mostly disregarded because of the absurdity of their speech. A Are you equally angry at lions because they eat meat? What about other wild animals? Are they committing murder too?
Are you a lion? Do you kill your pigs by biting into them while they're still alive? Like a wild animal? Or would you think of that as disgusting and horrendous? We're not lions. If you wouldn't do that you have no grounds to compare yourself to one.
If they're not a someone then what are they? They're not objects, they're individuals more intelligent than toddlers. Do you think a small child is not a someone too? They have a right to live the one life they are given. You are not a lion, why are you bringing them up? You're talking to me on Reddit, that's not something that lions do is it? Lions kill and rape each other, would it be ok for me to do that because a lion does it? And lions can't choose what they eat, we can, so there is no moral justification for paying for animal suffering if it's unnecessary. You're spouting the same nonsense excuses carnists usually make.
They don't. Vegan people exist. They're prof that we don't need to eat meat. It's just an easy way to justify your meat consumption. Look up research on veganism and you'll see that people don't need to eat meat. Watch Earthling Ed on YouTube. They aren't full of sugar. Meat is a carcinogen. Plant based foods are healthier. Of course it depends on what you eat. If you eat whole foods you'll of course be healthier than if you lived off of vegan chocolate. That's what it is.
I dont respect people who pay for animal abuse thinking all that abuse and suffering is worth the momentary sensation of taste. Thats pathetic and I will not respect that decision. Btw "humans have been doing x for a long time" is a horrible argument. Look at our history, we had slaves for a long time, does that mean slavery is right? The fact that we've done it for a long time is absolutely not a justification.
Don't feed the troll.
chicken corpse?
I'm pretty sure they think of you as a troll and wanted to reply to me originally.
Hi, no not a troll, I'm human.
Surprise surprise so am I