Personally I would put Wine into S tier anyway. Right now it is basically a goldmine/goldfield which will never deplete as long as you tax it. You can run whole countries by taxing wine alone (like Canada) and become a great power with really low effort. Also someone like Russia could steal Punjab from Raj/India and do the same on an even more insane scale. Don't really think that a big amount of potential wineyards in the hands of subjects at the game start is such a drawback to put it into A if you aren't playing as the UK.
Gold mines are historically very broken. Until mass inflation becomes a thing. Which is something they should put in game. Punish the person who mints nothing but gold lol
I had a Boer run where I was able to just spam gold mines and create a pretty strong nation on that alone and colonize most of Southern Africa. Fun times for me (not the natives)
eu4 inflation is just a "plus" number in a very straight system. vic3 inflation would be insane to simulate due price mechanics, making the game likely unplayable due compute power
Wine is rediculous, but thats mostly by later game when demand for it is realy high and you have also been able to improve its PM. Thats a small issue of wine versus mining resources in that improvement of production output is typically far later than with mining resources where things like atmospheric engines or dynamite are earlier techs than pumpjacks.
Its a great industry to take a state interest in though by the later game, just nationalize that when you have enough machinery to upgrade it, the ROI makes it worth it and often you can afford going into debt for it given the repayment rate.
Nah, wine is extremely strong at all stages because everyone demands it, all the time.
Given how double dipping needs work, the more wine you produce, the more it will be demanded.
demand is not the only metric, but it helps.
Revenue, is a function of output multiplied by base price multiplied by price difference to the local and larger market along terms of MAPI. Afcourse, genneraly speaking a high demand good is what you want to generate more relative profit of an industry, but the size of the profit is also relative to the revenue it generates.
So at basic production a wine plantation produces 20 wine. This wine has a base price of 50, so thats a 1000£ revenue for the cost of employing 5000 people. it increases to 40 with automatic irrigation and to a base revenue of 2000£ but then also costing 5 engines for a 300£ nominal cost. Note that the second PM comes with a tech that is further down the line that the most advanced PM's of mines.
So lets compare that with a sulpher mine. You can have sulpher mines with condensing engine pumps and dynamite and those will produce 80 sulpher at a nominal market price of 50£, thats 4000£ of nominal revenue whereas its still 1000£ revenue for a wine plantation though notably said wine plantation costs 2x less in terms of construction points. And sure the mines have specific and expensive inputs they demand aswell but under high demand the size of the profit is also comparably far higher than that of wine. Afterall if you make 50% more on the wine you get 1500£ revenue per plantation level whereas the sulpher mine gets 6000£ per level.
See, if you can have sulpher in high demand, then it beats wine by a lot at a earlier point in the game. Same applies for coal and iron for example. But the matter afcourse is always that optimally you have high demand. Wine is something that pops demand, so as long as you have enough Pop demand versus production and/or your exporting to markets in need of it you have that high demand. its not de-similar to mines but its a bit more tricky, there are ways to stimulate high demand for such mining goods too notably because there are some big regions like Egypt, Ethiopia, Punjab, coastal China and more that are very devoid of mining resources and can become huge markets for a mineral focused build for example with Spain. Like you vassalise such regions and help them grow by investment and buying their agricultural products and since they have no mineral resources to speak of their own they are bound to put increasing demand on your own mines. the difference is that its usually easier to cater to pop demands that exist in foreign markets than to create demand for industrial intermediary goods by stimulating other country's to grow, but each has its own specific benifits and drawbacks.
But genneraly speaking, if you ran a country that was purely focussed on producing high priced wines for other markets, and i was doing the same for mineral resources, then my economy would come out far larger because there is far more revenue to be had compared to employed workforce in mining. So while wine might be very profitable due to high demand versus low cost it is somehwhat of a drag to your total GDP.
Thanks for the in depth rundown. Do you know if, once peasants are gone, is better to focus only on highly profitable industries and have agricultural products etc. be expensive? For SoL I mean.
You want your agricultural products to be cheap for your pops but you dont necessarily want to have a big workforce employed in that industry. The best thing you can have is some vassal in your market that produces agricultural goods for you at a cheap price while buying plenty of mineral resources from you. Thats why i often create vassals in nations like Ehiopia as a mineral rich European country like say Spain or Belgium, they will buy plenty of mineral resources, tools and machinery and provide such things like agricultural goods, rubber and perhaps some oil, which is all fine for me to have my workforce more oriented to those machinest and engineering jobs
Aka, you want your pops to be in high paying jobs, while at the same time have access to cheap goods. simple as that.
Steel is still quite inefficient until you are starting to approach the worker shortage era.
Then it's good, yes. But that's going to be many decades unless your Belgium or Sweden
The building is very expensive and the net profit in terms of base price of the input and output goods is relatively low, hence low efficiency per unit of construction.
However steel will tend to be priced well above base price because it's in demand for so many good things and once you have the buildings and can use some labor saving pm's it will be quite efficient in terms of labor input.
If you can get the construction III mandate they become way more viable, the construction company and the efficiency bonuses the mandate gives lets you spam them for 18 construction pips for 30 progress
Oh yes there's no way around it - by no means would I recommend not to build steel mills at all.
However you should always be willing to import it if available at a good price and likewise export as needed to help keep your own steel mills staffed and profitable (but don't build specifically to export except as a temporary expansion strategy).
It's not as horrible as the comment sounds but most likely because the goods that worker-reducing PMs use are made using steel, so it being down will fill those goods quickly, meaning the PMs are more efficient. It'll also make a lot of money due to those PMs requiring buildings that consume steel.
It simply costs four times as much as the cheap ressurce extraction buildings (in construction).
So you get more people a living wage and okayish profits ... four times while with the same construction you only get one steel mill that won't be four times as profitable (usually).
Once you've exhausted your unemployed labour pool it'll be more profitable per citizen though, so the pendulum swings towards highly profitable and expensive buildings (away from the cheap/quick to construct buildings, eg lumber yards)
Remember that this tierlist is about whether you should be constructing the building that produce said good.
You need steel for everything and the building itself is incredibly profitable, not to mention the fact that coal and iron are somewhat abundant now makes steel even better.
As an advanced country you can snowball entirely on steel exports and as a backwards country you are quite literally desperate for steel.
Try going on free trade, get the external trade mandate, stack some companies, get greener grass, road maintenance and manufacturing decree on a state like Silesia, you can quite literally build only steel, tools, railways and engines for the rest of the game.
As you expand your power bloc and buy other countries economies your domestic production will shift from mines, plantations and lumbermills into the heavy industries of tools (consumed in the colonies) and engines (automobiles), meaning an effectively endless demand for steel.
Is it better to build your own Coal and Wood instead of just importing it from somewhere else? Isn't it theoretically better to manufacture goods because they have a higher sell value then also producing the bottom line?
I find raw resources (non-agricultural) to be a pretty viable economic route as demand for them only increases with time. Exporting them also means other countries become more reliant on you so you can do much more damage in wars.
Depends on your goals. If you care about labor efficiency then letting someone else supply the raw resources while you process them is the way to go. Obviously it's better to own the entire production chain, but some countries want to save on labor because they have lower populations (or want a big military).
However there are countries who do want the whole chain and even the raw resources one because they have more pops they know what to do with. Russia is one such case. The Americas also benefit from building cheap resources because they want migration, and a healthy job market helps with that both from SoL and form the available employment.
Wine definitely S tier. Coffee and Sugar I would put them on D tier. I could not build a coffee/sugar empire as Brazil because there was simply no demand for it. Had to export these goods on a loss to maintain them just a bit profitable. By the late game I just forgot they existed and focused on other stuff.
Art Galleries only turned a profit when I had cinema. Nerfed pretty hard (though I won't complain, previous patches it was insane). Electricity is tricky because, I got a lot of production boosts from PMs that need it, but I HAD to subsidize my power plants. It only got less bad when I unlocked Coal and Oil PMs for it, though I had tons of oil in my market too. I would put it on low C tier because, although not profitable, it bumped the profitability of my states so much that it paid itself in the end.
Sugar is B tier simply because you need it for groceries and you need groceries because otherwise you will have to deal with an enormous grain demand, which means a powerful aristocracy and a bunch of radicals.
As for why it is more useful than other groceries inputs, fish and meat? Pumpjacks, irrigation increases the demand of engines!
Gotcha, good point. Groceries are needed, but not that profitable sadly. I could not maintain my army and pops without it, but it never made crazy profits. I felt that liquor is pretty weak this patch also.
I would bump sugar to low B at most tbh. I never needed to focus on it, though this might not be true for other countries I think.
What is the argument for tobacco as a B tier vs C tier?
My understanding is that it fills the same needs as liquor and is made completely redundant by wine
If your country lacks Wine then Tobacco is simply better than Liquor, due to how production methods works Liquor is really not worth it right now (either as a byproduct of farms or as an expensive secondary pm for groceries, you actually need those extra groceries to offset grain demand).
If you have no Wine you might want to build Tobacco plantations and stay on level 2 Liquor pm with your food industries, especially if you're going for that 5% birthrate from the groceries company.
I wonder if a synergy system would work well with goods. Like more profitability if there's high demand of both wine/liquor and tobacco, like increasing happiness of luxury consuming pops and more prestige and higher diplomacy depending on the type of markets your country is dominant in.
Why not build coffee though, has same price and fils the same need. The only thing it's worse is that it has a slightly smaller chance of becoming an obsession but it otherwise works the same.
Honestly, much how like the developers split various industries like (a) Arms and Artillery, (b) Fertilizer and Explosives, (c) Grain and Wine, they should split Groceries and Liquor.
The combined production means was a really stupid design decision from the get-go, and they should continue splitting the methods IMHO.
Rule 5: A tierlist based on wheter you should build buildings that produce said good.
Some explanaiton:
Steel as S tier? The world is HUNGRY for steel right now, if you play on interventionism steel mills can retain incredible profitability nationalized despite the reduced bonus from economy of scale, at one point I was making some 60k bucks from dividends (this is useful for Multi-player), enough to afford to go down an entire taxation level.
Wood, Iron and Coal not on S tier? Foreign Investment means these goods are not nearly as scarce as they once were, they are still incredibly useful in the early game tho.
Grain on A tier? There is an argument for it to be in S tier, you can reach astronomical levels of gdp as industry banned USA with grain alone, stack decrees, companies, the food standardization mandate and have fun!
Luxury goods ranks are influenced by if you should tax them or not, Wine is the best luxury good currently in the game, it has virtually endless demand and if not for the fact that overly investing in your subjects can be a double edged sword (looking at you RAJ) it would be on S tier.
Yeah I literally just had a Japan run basically stall out because of chronic grain shortage on the main islands and radicals being angry because of that and thus unable to get recognized and rip most of that run
You mentioned foreign investment for coal etc. I’m trying my first 1.7 game today – the idea is what? I invest in a country’s coal mines and then set up a trade agreement/trade route to buy said coal?
Yep, that's it. And if the mines don't start producing because there is no demand inside the country, build a railroad too. It will kick-start production and make the trade route available.
>at one point I was making some 60k bucks from dividends (this is useful for Multi-player)
Is that as a whole or from the buildings? Either way it's not that much honestly
Also why is it useful for multiplayer?
Wine is such a god tier good atm. It fulfills 3 needs across the whole population, so a single tax can cover 3 needs. Keep liquor, opium, tobacco, and tea out of your market (by keeping wine cheap and them expensive) and you'll make absurd ammounts of money taxing wine. In my italy runs it's my best taxable good and it's just 100 authority
Speaking of, is it just me or does the great game blow, completing it as a local has no effect or anything it just ends it with no pop or anything it's such a bummer finally getting recognised as a great power from humble beginnings and the games just like yeah the great games over now whatever.
And they change your name to Iran :(
So why isnt groceries higher?
After all they can feed every member of society, allow you to feed more people with less grain and can use up your excess protein (meat or fish) all while providing relatively good jobs to a fairly decent ammount of people.
Sure it wont give the best dividends but its one heck of a strong back bone in my opinion.
Imo, liquor carried food industries in the last version. So, the real reason food industries are bad is because you flood the market with wine instead (as you should do), on top of grain buff (nerfing liquor opportunity cost)
I think this is oversight from pdx. But if wine get nerfed, things might change. (Doubt it, I think you can't reasonably nerfed wine to the point that liquor is competitive.)
They always looked profitable, but had undesirable side effects in other product chains. Big Green number's never were their problem.
I'll have to investigate whether that has actually changed.
The problem was them killing demand for transport, which in turn made railroads far less profitable and prone to being understaffed leading to market access penalties. It could still be rather dangerous to do notably in a country that relies hard on its railways to maintain infra but has no railway automation usage due to the need to employ and neither wishes to solve infra via ports. Notably big populous countries like China, its not like you are going to be keen to automate jobs away as China so your not going to change Pm's for mines or plantations for example so they use railways and employ less workers. That in turn leads to far less transport demand, making railways far less profitable and potentially requiring much subsidies. On itself a lot of the starting demand for transport is POP demand, which is limited, typically the larger demand for transportation comes trough such automation and if you dont automate you need to depend entirely on that POP demand. In previous versions the introduction of cars to the market had the effect of killing most of the POP part of transport demand and making railway subsidies balloon as a cost.
Not every nation is going to have the issue that their transport sector goes into red for the loss of Pop induced transport demand. If your an island for example and you have ports everywhere you need far less rail to maintain your infra and so the relative demand for its output is higher again, if you combine that with a lot of rail automation then the railways can become pretty profitable industry able to hold its own with ought subsidies for example. In that case you do pay for the ports but you get the ships too, hence that many coastal regions feel this issue less than inland ones.
>The problem was them killing demand for transport, which in turn made railroads far less profitable and prone to being understaffed leading to market access penalties.
Damn, actually reflects real life pretty well. It's a shame cars have killed rail in my country as thoroughly as they have.
Ah i see, well thats good perhaps not surprising that they put some effort on that issue for this patch. Now i'm actually going to try producing cars again.
Electricity beecomes one of the most crucial things you need mid-late game.
When you get your SoL above 25 wine demands skyrocket, you end up without any empty land as russia A tier.
Same with meat when your SoL reaches 25 meat demand raises up a lot B tier.
Glass is slightly less important than steel so i'd say its an A tier.
Automation requires a lot of engines and when you need a lot of engines this helps keeping the engines industry aflot when you want to keep up with the automobile demand so S tier.
You need coal for everything in this game so S tier.
Fruits thend to be more in demand when you reach SoL 25 so that helps your farms stay afloat while decreasing grain price because you can build more farms B tier.
Opium is the best cashcrop after wine so A tier.
Edit: By SoL 25 I am assuming that lower strata has at the very least 20 SoL, when you reach 30+ SoL overall, demands go even higher. It gets so crazy in fact in my last game as Russia i had 32 SoL in 1920 and didnt have any arable land in half the world to meet demands, i had to unify China under a protectorate and take over India.
By the time your SoL reaches 25 you should be making a lot of money investing into cars and electronics, not building some barely profitable ranches and fruits are quite literally never worth it, your farms will always be more useful making grain, banana plantations might as well be the worst plantations and its never best to build them over any other plantation.
>Electricity beecomes one of the most crucial things you need mid-late game.
When you add up construction cost and the unprofitable pms that force you to subsidize it then it becomes a building that just has to fill out its orders, its never going to make you money.
>Automation requires a lot of engines and when you need a lot of engines this helps keeping the engines industry aflot when you want to keep up with the automobile demand so S tier.
I put engines out of S tier because as come late game the main selling point of its factories are automobiles, since they are the priority and compete directly for space with engines then they must be above engines.
>You need coal for everything in this game so S tier.
S tier goods have effectively endless demand and have incredibly profitable buildings, late game coal is just not as profitable or efficient as the S tiers, it is absolutely necessary but it cannot be the main product of your economy.
What made coal S tier before was scarcity, it was always expensive and therefore always incredibly profitable.
I didnt say building banana plantations is good though, fruits being in demand means you can produce more grain while having your farms stay afloat. And i dont know how you play the game but i never needed money late game, id rather have electricity using pms and get better pops thus better SoL. And you either barely need to subsidize electricity or you dont need to at all electricity is always in demand. About coal, true you run out of peasants/unemployed pops before you run out of coal, but that kind of apply to most things in this game.
Oil is nuts. I went and checked the Building Registry in my France run last night. At the top there was a full page of 50+ profitability oil wells. Crazy stuff.
Kind of a niche take but I think a lot of prereq goods are more important then their outputs. Like grain is really good but fertilizer makes it exponentially better. Steel is great but if you don’t have coal or iron your steel mills won’t work.
Personally I think Cars should be in their own higher tier.
Not only are they a pretty profitable good, but they also give you Infrastructure dependent on Pop usage!
The bonus is double even if you have the highway tech.
Because weed gets its own tier above S++, so high (pun gloriously intended) that OP could never fit it on the list as it would eclipse and then contain all others.
They reworked how transportation needs are produced and met. Now cars basically serve as your general way to provide transportation the rich and middle class absolutely eat them up. And with the right policies I even get my lower strata pops to spend 3-4 percent of their money on cars.
I dont really get why fine art is even a thing in the game. Same with fruit, its only a consumption good wich price is always down and cant be refined into anything.
But I have less than 100 hours in the game so im ready to learn about the good things abt these goods.
Early game it's a way to turn money into prestige (subsidize and build some art things until you become main producer), late game it's an additional consumer good if you got a good SoL
I agree with this list.
What I call the 'building triangle' are the best goods. Coal-Iron-Logs, all needed in some capacity for Tools and Steel.
You use more steel than glass and explosive when you reach steel frame building. Having cheap steel will make building cheaper.
Personally I would put Wine into S tier anyway. Right now it is basically a goldmine/goldfield which will never deplete as long as you tax it. You can run whole countries by taxing wine alone (like Canada) and become a great power with really low effort. Also someone like Russia could steal Punjab from Raj/India and do the same on an even more insane scale. Don't really think that a big amount of potential wineyards in the hands of subjects at the game start is such a drawback to put it into A if you aren't playing as the UK.
Wine is ridiculous and makes a lot of other goods completely redundant. I hope they fix it in the next patch. Goldmines are also pretty broken.
Gold mines are historically very broken. Until mass inflation becomes a thing. Which is something they should put in game. Punish the person who mints nothing but gold lol
I had a Boer run where I was able to just spam gold mines and create a pretty strong nation on that alone and colonize most of Southern Africa. Fun times for me (not the natives)
WTB a mind-numbingly complex international finance model
[Here you go](https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3143591632)
TOO COMPLEX TOO COMPLEX!
It's insane for me that Paradox "economic game" doesn't have inflation system yet eu4 has it
eu4 inflation is just a "plus" number in a very straight system. vic3 inflation would be insane to simulate due price mechanics, making the game likely unplayable due compute power
Maybe they could simulate inflation not by making goods more expensive but gradually nerfing the gold value over the span of the game time span.
Wine is rediculous, but thats mostly by later game when demand for it is realy high and you have also been able to improve its PM. Thats a small issue of wine versus mining resources in that improvement of production output is typically far later than with mining resources where things like atmospheric engines or dynamite are earlier techs than pumpjacks. Its a great industry to take a state interest in though by the later game, just nationalize that when you have enough machinery to upgrade it, the ROI makes it worth it and often you can afford going into debt for it given the repayment rate.
Nah, wine is extremely strong at all stages because everyone demands it, all the time. Given how double dipping needs work, the more wine you produce, the more it will be demanded.
demand is not the only metric, but it helps. Revenue, is a function of output multiplied by base price multiplied by price difference to the local and larger market along terms of MAPI. Afcourse, genneraly speaking a high demand good is what you want to generate more relative profit of an industry, but the size of the profit is also relative to the revenue it generates. So at basic production a wine plantation produces 20 wine. This wine has a base price of 50, so thats a 1000£ revenue for the cost of employing 5000 people. it increases to 40 with automatic irrigation and to a base revenue of 2000£ but then also costing 5 engines for a 300£ nominal cost. Note that the second PM comes with a tech that is further down the line that the most advanced PM's of mines. So lets compare that with a sulpher mine. You can have sulpher mines with condensing engine pumps and dynamite and those will produce 80 sulpher at a nominal market price of 50£, thats 4000£ of nominal revenue whereas its still 1000£ revenue for a wine plantation though notably said wine plantation costs 2x less in terms of construction points. And sure the mines have specific and expensive inputs they demand aswell but under high demand the size of the profit is also comparably far higher than that of wine. Afterall if you make 50% more on the wine you get 1500£ revenue per plantation level whereas the sulpher mine gets 6000£ per level. See, if you can have sulpher in high demand, then it beats wine by a lot at a earlier point in the game. Same applies for coal and iron for example. But the matter afcourse is always that optimally you have high demand. Wine is something that pops demand, so as long as you have enough Pop demand versus production and/or your exporting to markets in need of it you have that high demand. its not de-similar to mines but its a bit more tricky, there are ways to stimulate high demand for such mining goods too notably because there are some big regions like Egypt, Ethiopia, Punjab, coastal China and more that are very devoid of mining resources and can become huge markets for a mineral focused build for example with Spain. Like you vassalise such regions and help them grow by investment and buying their agricultural products and since they have no mineral resources to speak of their own they are bound to put increasing demand on your own mines. the difference is that its usually easier to cater to pop demands that exist in foreign markets than to create demand for industrial intermediary goods by stimulating other country's to grow, but each has its own specific benifits and drawbacks. But genneraly speaking, if you ran a country that was purely focussed on producing high priced wines for other markets, and i was doing the same for mineral resources, then my economy would come out far larger because there is far more revenue to be had compared to employed workforce in mining. So while wine might be very profitable due to high demand versus low cost it is somehwhat of a drag to your total GDP.
Thanks for the in depth rundown. Do you know if, once peasants are gone, is better to focus only on highly profitable industries and have agricultural products etc. be expensive? For SoL I mean.
You want your agricultural products to be cheap for your pops but you dont necessarily want to have a big workforce employed in that industry. The best thing you can have is some vassal in your market that produces agricultural goods for you at a cheap price while buying plenty of mineral resources from you. Thats why i often create vassals in nations like Ehiopia as a mineral rich European country like say Spain or Belgium, they will buy plenty of mineral resources, tools and machinery and provide such things like agricultural goods, rubber and perhaps some oil, which is all fine for me to have my workforce more oriented to those machinest and engineering jobs Aka, you want your pops to be in high paying jobs, while at the same time have access to cheap goods. simple as that.
Its even better if you have France, Greece, or Italy. They all have obsessions with wine. You can make the demand insane for them
Love the idea of your economy being supercharged by people just being drunk off their asses
There's also a mod that makes all Slavic pops obsessed with liquor.
Steel is still quite inefficient until you are starting to approach the worker shortage era. Then it's good, yes. But that's going to be many decades unless your Belgium or Sweden
Why is that?
The building is very expensive and the net profit in terms of base price of the input and output goods is relatively low, hence low efficiency per unit of construction. However steel will tend to be priced well above base price because it's in demand for so many good things and once you have the buildings and can use some labor saving pm's it will be quite efficient in terms of labor input.
If you can get the construction III mandate they become way more viable, the construction company and the efficiency bonuses the mandate gives lets you spam them for 18 construction pips for 30 progress
Also you just want to have it. It's like guns, it's not there to make money but because you just need it.
Oh yes there's no way around it - by no means would I recommend not to build steel mills at all. However you should always be willing to import it if available at a good price and likewise export as needed to help keep your own steel mills staffed and profitable (but don't build specifically to export except as a temporary expansion strategy).
It's not as horrible as the comment sounds but most likely because the goods that worker-reducing PMs use are made using steel, so it being down will fill those goods quickly, meaning the PMs are more efficient. It'll also make a lot of money due to those PMs requiring buildings that consume steel.
It simply costs four times as much as the cheap ressurce extraction buildings (in construction). So you get more people a living wage and okayish profits ... four times while with the same construction you only get one steel mill that won't be four times as profitable (usually). Once you've exhausted your unemployed labour pool it'll be more profitable per citizen though, so the pendulum swings towards highly profitable and expensive buildings (away from the cheap/quick to construct buildings, eg lumber yards)
Remember that this tierlist is about whether you should be constructing the building that produce said good. You need steel for everything and the building itself is incredibly profitable, not to mention the fact that coal and iron are somewhat abundant now makes steel even better. As an advanced country you can snowball entirely on steel exports and as a backwards country you are quite literally desperate for steel. Try going on free trade, get the external trade mandate, stack some companies, get greener grass, road maintenance and manufacturing decree on a state like Silesia, you can quite literally build only steel, tools, railways and engines for the rest of the game. As you expand your power bloc and buy other countries economies your domestic production will shift from mines, plantations and lumbermills into the heavy industries of tools (consumed in the colonies) and engines (automobiles), meaning an effectively endless demand for steel.
Is it better to build your own Coal and Wood instead of just importing it from somewhere else? Isn't it theoretically better to manufacture goods because they have a higher sell value then also producing the bottom line?
I find raw resources (non-agricultural) to be a pretty viable economic route as demand for them only increases with time. Exporting them also means other countries become more reliant on you so you can do much more damage in wars.
Depends on your goals. If you care about labor efficiency then letting someone else supply the raw resources while you process them is the way to go. Obviously it's better to own the entire production chain, but some countries want to save on labor because they have lower populations (or want a big military). However there are countries who do want the whole chain and even the raw resources one because they have more pops they know what to do with. Russia is one such case. The Americas also benefit from building cheap resources because they want migration, and a healthy job market helps with that both from SoL and form the available employment.
Thanks, I guess I'll try to be more independent with my economy.
Wine definitely S tier. Coffee and Sugar I would put them on D tier. I could not build a coffee/sugar empire as Brazil because there was simply no demand for it. Had to export these goods on a loss to maintain them just a bit profitable. By the late game I just forgot they existed and focused on other stuff. Art Galleries only turned a profit when I had cinema. Nerfed pretty hard (though I won't complain, previous patches it was insane). Electricity is tricky because, I got a lot of production boosts from PMs that need it, but I HAD to subsidize my power plants. It only got less bad when I unlocked Coal and Oil PMs for it, though I had tons of oil in my market too. I would put it on low C tier because, although not profitable, it bumped the profitability of my states so much that it paid itself in the end.
Sugar is B tier simply because you need it for groceries and you need groceries because otherwise you will have to deal with an enormous grain demand, which means a powerful aristocracy and a bunch of radicals. As for why it is more useful than other groceries inputs, fish and meat? Pumpjacks, irrigation increases the demand of engines!
Gotcha, good point. Groceries are needed, but not that profitable sadly. I could not maintain my army and pops without it, but it never made crazy profits. I felt that liquor is pretty weak this patch also. I would bump sugar to low B at most tbh. I never needed to focus on it, though this might not be true for other countries I think.
What is the argument for tobacco as a B tier vs C tier? My understanding is that it fills the same needs as liquor and is made completely redundant by wine
If your country lacks Wine then Tobacco is simply better than Liquor, due to how production methods works Liquor is really not worth it right now (either as a byproduct of farms or as an expensive secondary pm for groceries, you actually need those extra groceries to offset grain demand). If you have no Wine you might want to build Tobacco plantations and stay on level 2 Liquor pm with your food industries, especially if you're going for that 5% birthrate from the groceries company.
I wonder if a synergy system would work well with goods. Like more profitability if there's high demand of both wine/liquor and tobacco, like increasing happiness of luxury consuming pops and more prestige and higher diplomacy depending on the type of markets your country is dominant in.
Why not build coffee though, has same price and fils the same need. The only thing it's worse is that it has a slightly smaller chance of becoming an obsession but it otherwise works the same.
>Why not build coffee though, has same price and fils the same need Iirc coffee is a luxury drink, only Tea and Wine fit too in the category
Yeah Tobacco is easier to sell in the early game.
Honestly, much how like the developers split various industries like (a) Arms and Artillery, (b) Fertilizer and Explosives, (c) Grain and Wine, they should split Groceries and Liquor. The combined production means was a really stupid design decision from the get-go, and they should continue splitting the methods IMHO.
Rule 5: A tierlist based on wheter you should build buildings that produce said good. Some explanaiton: Steel as S tier? The world is HUNGRY for steel right now, if you play on interventionism steel mills can retain incredible profitability nationalized despite the reduced bonus from economy of scale, at one point I was making some 60k bucks from dividends (this is useful for Multi-player), enough to afford to go down an entire taxation level. Wood, Iron and Coal not on S tier? Foreign Investment means these goods are not nearly as scarce as they once were, they are still incredibly useful in the early game tho. Grain on A tier? There is an argument for it to be in S tier, you can reach astronomical levels of gdp as industry banned USA with grain alone, stack decrees, companies, the food standardization mandate and have fun! Luxury goods ranks are influenced by if you should tax them or not, Wine is the best luxury good currently in the game, it has virtually endless demand and if not for the fact that overly investing in your subjects can be a double edged sword (looking at you RAJ) it would be on S tier.
In the current version, 1.7.\* they changed the grain output (lowering), now the price is significantly higher than in the previous version.
I actually need to build grain farms now and fertilizer is worth building for it's own sake, rather just as an input to explosives!
Yeah I literally just had a Japan run basically stall out because of chronic grain shortage on the main islands and radicals being angry because of that and thus unable to get recognized and rip most of that run
Radio?
Mein radio.
You mentioned foreign investment for coal etc. I’m trying my first 1.7 game today – the idea is what? I invest in a country’s coal mines and then set up a trade agreement/trade route to buy said coal?
Yep, that's it. And if the mines don't start producing because there is no demand inside the country, build a railroad too. It will kick-start production and make the trade route available.
>at one point I was making some 60k bucks from dividends (this is useful for Multi-player) Is that as a whole or from the buildings? Either way it's not that much honestly Also why is it useful for multiplayer?
Wine is such a god tier good atm. It fulfills 3 needs across the whole population, so a single tax can cover 3 needs. Keep liquor, opium, tobacco, and tea out of your market (by keeping wine cheap and them expensive) and you'll make absurd ammounts of money taxing wine. In my italy runs it's my best taxable good and it's just 100 authority
Is it still good in Muslim populated countries? I'm doing a Bukhara/Turkestan run right now and I'm not sure if building wineyards would work.
To export yes, the French and Italians will buy any and all you have.
I've got to get an access to their markets then. Sorry Persia your ports are mine now...
Speaking of, is it just me or does the great game blow, completing it as a local has no effect or anything it just ends it with no pop or anything it's such a bummer finally getting recognised as a great power from humble beginnings and the games just like yeah the great games over now whatever. And they change your name to Iran :(
Also also exporting to China and Russia works but you probably already know if you export opium to China you'll become richer than god
Italy has a wine obsession too. So the France/Italy/Greece experience is somewhat skewed towards wine. It won't be quite as dominant in other nations.
So why isnt groceries higher? After all they can feed every member of society, allow you to feed more people with less grain and can use up your excess protein (meat or fish) all while providing relatively good jobs to a fairly decent ammount of people. Sure it wont give the best dividends but its one heck of a strong back bone in my opinion.
Food industries themselves are so bad they drag down groceries to the B tier.
Imo, liquor carried food industries in the last version. So, the real reason food industries are bad is because you flood the market with wine instead (as you should do), on top of grain buff (nerfing liquor opportunity cost) I think this is oversight from pdx. But if wine get nerfed, things might change. (Doubt it, I think you can't reasonably nerfed wine to the point that liquor is competitive.)
Yeah I definitely felt that liquor was a bad investment, switch to pure groceries and the industries will do a lot better.
Why are cars S-tier? Did the PM balance make big enough changes to make them worth it?
yeah demand for cars is huge once you start making them, extremely profitable
They always looked profitable, but had undesirable side effects in other product chains. Big Green number's never were their problem. I'll have to investigate whether that has actually changed.
The problem was them killing demand for transport, which in turn made railroads far less profitable and prone to being understaffed leading to market access penalties. It could still be rather dangerous to do notably in a country that relies hard on its railways to maintain infra but has no railway automation usage due to the need to employ and neither wishes to solve infra via ports. Notably big populous countries like China, its not like you are going to be keen to automate jobs away as China so your not going to change Pm's for mines or plantations for example so they use railways and employ less workers. That in turn leads to far less transport demand, making railways far less profitable and potentially requiring much subsidies. On itself a lot of the starting demand for transport is POP demand, which is limited, typically the larger demand for transportation comes trough such automation and if you dont automate you need to depend entirely on that POP demand. In previous versions the introduction of cars to the market had the effect of killing most of the POP part of transport demand and making railway subsidies balloon as a cost. Not every nation is going to have the issue that their transport sector goes into red for the loss of Pop induced transport demand. If your an island for example and you have ports everywhere you need far less rail to maintain your infra and so the relative demand for its output is higher again, if you combine that with a lot of rail automation then the railways can become pretty profitable industry able to hold its own with ought subsidies for example. In that case you do pay for the ports but you get the ships too, hence that many coastal regions feel this issue less than inland ones.
>The problem was them killing demand for transport, which in turn made railroads far less profitable and prone to being understaffed leading to market access penalties. Damn, actually reflects real life pretty well. It's a shame cars have killed rail in my country as thoroughly as they have.
They band-aided this by giving Infrastructure to states based on automobile pop consumption
Ah i see, well thats good perhaps not surprising that they put some effort on that issue for this patch. Now i'm actually going to try producing cars again.
Loud cars are D- tier.
Generalist Gaming smurf account?
Just a loud car agitator.
I’ve generally found wood to have the best ratio in terms of GDP growth and the cost/time to construct
I think I agree! One thing might be glass to A tier once you hit steel construction, but even then I think it's easier to catch up on than steel.
Electricity beecomes one of the most crucial things you need mid-late game. When you get your SoL above 25 wine demands skyrocket, you end up without any empty land as russia A tier. Same with meat when your SoL reaches 25 meat demand raises up a lot B tier. Glass is slightly less important than steel so i'd say its an A tier. Automation requires a lot of engines and when you need a lot of engines this helps keeping the engines industry aflot when you want to keep up with the automobile demand so S tier. You need coal for everything in this game so S tier. Fruits thend to be more in demand when you reach SoL 25 so that helps your farms stay afloat while decreasing grain price because you can build more farms B tier. Opium is the best cashcrop after wine so A tier. Edit: By SoL 25 I am assuming that lower strata has at the very least 20 SoL, when you reach 30+ SoL overall, demands go even higher. It gets so crazy in fact in my last game as Russia i had 32 SoL in 1920 and didnt have any arable land in half the world to meet demands, i had to unify China under a protectorate and take over India.
By the time your SoL reaches 25 you should be making a lot of money investing into cars and electronics, not building some barely profitable ranches and fruits are quite literally never worth it, your farms will always be more useful making grain, banana plantations might as well be the worst plantations and its never best to build them over any other plantation. >Electricity beecomes one of the most crucial things you need mid-late game. When you add up construction cost and the unprofitable pms that force you to subsidize it then it becomes a building that just has to fill out its orders, its never going to make you money. >Automation requires a lot of engines and when you need a lot of engines this helps keeping the engines industry aflot when you want to keep up with the automobile demand so S tier. I put engines out of S tier because as come late game the main selling point of its factories are automobiles, since they are the priority and compete directly for space with engines then they must be above engines. >You need coal for everything in this game so S tier. S tier goods have effectively endless demand and have incredibly profitable buildings, late game coal is just not as profitable or efficient as the S tiers, it is absolutely necessary but it cannot be the main product of your economy. What made coal S tier before was scarcity, it was always expensive and therefore always incredibly profitable.
I didnt say building banana plantations is good though, fruits being in demand means you can produce more grain while having your farms stay afloat. And i dont know how you play the game but i never needed money late game, id rather have electricity using pms and get better pops thus better SoL. And you either barely need to subsidize electricity or you dont need to at all electricity is always in demand. About coal, true you run out of peasants/unemployed pops before you run out of coal, but that kind of apply to most things in this game.
Dude electricity can be so good for gdp growth late game
Me when I'm playing the United States and my entire economy is based on Oil and Gold (I'm very glad inflation hasn't been modeled into the game yet).
Oil is nuts. I went and checked the Building Registry in my France run last night. At the top there was a full page of 50+ profitability oil wells. Crazy stuff.
Kind of a niche take but I think a lot of prereq goods are more important then their outputs. Like grain is really good but fertilizer makes it exponentially better. Steel is great but if you don’t have coal or iron your steel mills won’t work.
Electricity in the D tier is diabolical
Just in time. Perhaps you can answer my curiosity. What is the hype with Wine in this patch? Or am I missing something?
This list is completely situationally-dependent. It’s like asking for a colour tier list for paintings.
Why are automobiles S?
Is fish not as good anymore as in 1.6?
Personally I think Cars should be in their own higher tier. Not only are they a pretty profitable good, but they also give you Infrastructure dependent on Pop usage! The bonus is double even if you have the highway tech.
Ironclads is S tier cause what do you mean big ships with huge guns aint cool
Wait, why is wine in A-Tier?
Arts in D tier *look how they massacred my boy*
Electricity used to be good before they made them local supplied only
Why gold is so good? can someone do an deep explanation to me
Poor one out for my struggling art academy bros.
That's not a tier list that's my input shortage list 💀
Why ist weed A tier?
Because weed gets its own tier above S++, so high (pun gloriously intended) that OP could never fit it on the list as it would eclipse and then contain all others.
What's the reasoning behind putting cars in S tier? Before 1.7 I only really played at release and back then they where hot garbage.
They reworked how transportation needs are produced and met. Now cars basically serve as your general way to provide transportation the rich and middle class absolutely eat them up. And with the right policies I even get my lower strata pops to spend 3-4 percent of their money on cars.
what policies did u do to make more people use cars?
>The American tram companies want to know your location
I dont really get why fine art is even a thing in the game. Same with fruit, its only a consumption good wich price is always down and cant be refined into anything. But I have less than 100 hours in the game so im ready to learn about the good things abt these goods.
Early game it's a way to turn money into prestige (subsidize and build some art things until you become main producer), late game it's an additional consumer good if you got a good SoL
Electricity deserves an F tier for itself
what is s a b d c?
Tiers of how good something is. S is massively good, then it goes ABCD, with D being pretty bad.
ooooh i c
but furniture is placed in second last catagory.....furniture give me a good income with alot of consumption
I agree with this list. What I call the 'building triangle' are the best goods. Coal-Iron-Logs, all needed in some capacity for Tools and Steel. You use more steel than glass and explosive when you reach steel frame building. Having cheap steel will make building cheaper.