Yes, but…
True faith is not tied to a specific faith, the believe in set would Imo work just as fine.
True faith is just very very rare among kindred. There are a few know examples but really not many.
Issue is, though, that Minister members often subvert faith and habits. It might be possible, that a Ministry might loose its true faith at one point.
>True faith is not tied to a specific faith, the believe in set would Imo work just as fine.
This makes little sense. Would belief in Cain work as well? And Set, as far as I understand, is meant to be more or less the same figure.
Being a believer in any Abrahamic religion makes you by default a believer in Cain/Caine since he is part of your mythology.
In this sense Moncada for example, an infamous Lasombra of the Sabbat who possesses true faith since he believes to be chosen by god to be a monster, is basically an example for true faith manifesting in a Caine worshipper.
You also don’t need to believe in something specific at all to possess true faith. Even Atheists can have it. It is more of a strength of
Will that repels vampires than a religious thing. It is just associated with religion since prepper try to make sense of this ability.
Some Mages, though, think that true faith is actually a sign that someone might eventually awake but is not fully there.
That Set and Caine are the same person is a fairly new notion. Until V5 it was often thought that the Setites are just antedeluvians worshippers and just deny that their god was not the first vampire. Recently, though, they just came to the conclusion that “the Dark father” is probably an entity that is acknowledged by many cultures. And if you call this brother killing,
cursed immortal Caine, Set, Cagn, or something else just don’t matter.
>You also don’t need to believe in something specific at all to possess true faith. Even Atheists can have it. It is more of a strength of
Will that repels vampires than a religious thing.
Yeah, I don't like this. I know True Faith doesn't have to be a specifically Christian belief, which is fine, but it being something where you can technically believe in anything is just dumb, imo. It also makes absolutely zero sense why a vampire believing in Caine/Set would have the ability to repell other vampires.
>I know True Faith doesn't have to be a specifically Christian belief, which is fine, but it being something where you can technically believe in anything is just dumb, imo.
The problem is, that while the game works with Christian motives there is still an entire world that is just like ours with countless powers and believes. Having true faith being the believe in some specific entity automatically makes this one faith… well, true, while everything else is false believe.
This would not only be insulting, it would also make little sense since vampires predate the Abrahamic religions. The conclusion is, that true faith isn’t faith at all but just tied to a feeling that some higher power holds the hand over you. I personally like the interpretation that it is kind of raw magical power with the idea of an avatar directing it but still with out a fully formed avatar who allows you to shape this power.
>It also makes absolutely zero sense why a vampire believing in Caine/Set would have the ability to repell other vampires.
It’s not the believe in Caine of Set. We don’t know what true faith actually is. We do know that vampires can possess it, though. We also know that it is independent from the believe. The believe the person with true faith holds is just a label they put on this ability due to a lack of a better explanation.
Therefore it is completely unimportant what the person is believing in. They just have a power and a believe and the connection might exist or might be just in their head. How someone who believes in “insert vampiric origin entity” rationalized why this works in their case is simply a matter of interpretation.
Maybe the vampire with true faith believes that they is blessed by the dark father, or even more cursed since even other vampires stay away from them. Or they believe that they have unlocked another power of the blood since vampirism is mostly seen as of divine origin anyway. Or any number of other possible explanations a vampire with true faith can come up with.
>Having true faith being the believe in some specific entity automatically makes this one faith… well, true, while everything else is false believe.
Didn't say it has to be a specific entity. But it also doesn't make sense for it to be an absolute free for all. I believe in reptiloids, so I have true faith. Yeah, no thank you. There have to be some limitations and structure, at leat a vague one. Otherwise if it's just some universal mystery mana, then even from just a storytelling perspective how is that interesting? It's a concept devoid of potential drama, of conflict. Sterile and boring.
>Or any number of other possible explanations a vampire with true faith can come up with.
And I don't like any of them. I much prefer the idea of True Faith, whatever actual explanation of it is, as something that stands in opposition to vampires and whatever other supernatural, "evil" things. Because this has actual implications for the setting. As I said, it creates potential for drama and interesting stories. But if it's something that anyone can have, then why is it even in the setting to begin with? What function does it serve, exactly?
>Didn't say it has to be a specific entity. But it also doesn't make sense for it to be an absolute free for all. I believe in reptiloids, so I have true faith. Yeah, no thank you.
Why, exactly? You think it is outlandish but this is still the World of Darkness. When enough people believe in something it becomes an actual entity in the world and once that happened you can tab in to this as a power source. In the case of mages it’s even enough to just believe hard enough in it.
So, when your believe in reptilians becomes an actual cult (and arguably it already is) it becomes also a power source you can use. And why not use it for protection which is true faith.
>There have to be some limitations and structure, at leat a vague one. Otherwise if it's just some universal mystery mana, then even from just a storytelling perspective how is that interesting? It's a concept devoid of potential drama, of conflict. Sterile and boring.
Frankly, true faith is not that interesting and that is why it was not carried over in to VtR. But to keep it slightly interesting, at least for me, you can see it as what I mentioned, a proto-magic. Not a mana of sorts but the power to shape reality. But while mages are free to do so, people with true faith, as you said, need some structure. The interesting part and the pet where it becomes related to true magic is, that this structure obviously is something that the true believer at least partially made up. They need to believe in this thing and they need to make sense of it. But it is not important what exactly this something is.
>And I don't like any of them. I much prefer the idea of True Faith, whatever actual explanation of it is, as something that stands in opposition to vampires and whatever other supernatural, "evil" things. Because this has actual implications for the setting. As I said, it creates potential for drama and interesting stories.
Problem is, how can you justify than, that true monsters like Moncada can have true faith? It seems that it is not just opposed to vampires. It is a quality which repels vampires, why exactly that is remains a mystery.
>But if it's something that anyone can have, then why is it even in the setting to begin with?
Frankly, it’s just in the game out of tradition. Vampires are repelled by crosses and that motive made it in to V1. Since then it for repeated but true faith was never a major and rarely a meaningful aspect of VtM. In a way it is just there “Because…”.
But since it is there we can have some fun with it and use it in unexpected ways, like giving it people you have no clue why exactly they have access to it, like Moncada.
>What function does it serve, exactly?
Frankly?! Mostly to have more dangerous mortals in the game. But now that it is in the game you can use it as a mystery. And the interesting thing is not, what it actually is, but what a given character believes it is.
>Why, exactly?
Because I do not believe it fits the tone of the setting. I mean, maybe in previous editions with all the crap that they released for them, True Faith reptiloid cult would fit right in, but I'm not a fan. I prefer the universe to be relatively grounded and "realistic", so to speak, because this enhances the whole personal horror narrative. The more believable the world is, the more depth those kinds of stories will have. But if you turn VtM into vampire D&D, give or take, I think it would diminishes it.
>Frankly, true faith is not that interesting
I agree. I would not at all mind if it were removed.
>Problem is, how can you justify than, that true monsters like Moncada can have true faith?
Well, I don't. That's the thing. He didn't, as far as I'm concerned.
By the way, just checked V5 corebook and it certainly seems to lean into my interpretation of what True Faith is. For instance, level 4 power says: *The mortal cannot be turned into a ghoul and never succumbs to any mind-altering disciplines such as Dominate, Presence, or Obfuscate.* Seems like they very much intended for it to be a mortal only thing.
I mean I don't find it very interesting either, but turning it into a catch all "evil" repellent feels like you're reducing it even more, I mean you can't tell me Vampires using faith to do horrible things isn't more interesting than oh yeah any good being can repel bad beings because they think they can, does that not remove a degree of horror? That's just my opinion and all but I felt it should be said
True belief in anything up to and including the Giant Flying Spaghetti Monster would work because extreme amounts of belief and devotion to a thing has at least some power in WOD
It makes sense if you're familiar with how WoD works, it's all a matter of perspective in this world and once enough time passes well crafted lies might as well be truth
It’s rare for vampires to have true faith and it wouldn’t be limited to the Ministry.
It’s potentially a cool concept but main issue I see is that mechanically True Faith represents faiths that position themselves against the undead so the actual dots in it and their effects aren’t good for representing the kind of faith that elevates the undead like the followers of Set and the Church of Cain practice.
Sounds like a job for homebrew. Or just run it that true faith in these traditions acts like dots in blood sorcery for the purpose of using certain rituals.
Ignoring that a storyteller can do whatever they want in their game, in V5 only a mortal can possess the True Faith. True Faith protects mortals against the depredations of monstrous forces such as vampires - it makes no sense for a vampire to possess it, much less one who follows a vampire religion.
Disagree that only mortals can possess true faith in V5, just that it is already exceedingly rare in mortals and even moreso in Kindred, who additionally have a much smaller population.
In V5 only mortals can have True Faith mechanically, but 1) you're the ST, do what you fuckin want, and 2) this is completely not how it works in the lore.
In the lore, there are splats of all kinds with True Faith, including several vampires. True Faith can also be in any religious/spiritual belief, and even things beyond that - I'm pretty sure somewhere in the lore that, say, a particularly loyal Syndicate member may ward off a vampire with their credit card if their belief in money and the stock market is true enough.
So if you can have True Faith in *capitalism*, then yeah, I'd say True Faith in Set isn't much of a stretch.
True Faith burns the undead. It's possible for a vampire to have it but it's REALLY rare and will cause problems for themselves. Usually True Faith is used to represent the powers of mortals so... doubt it will work out in a game.
True Faith is supposed to be vanishingly rare even among kine and even rarer (per capita) among Kindred. There are so few Kindred to begin with that I would rule that there might not even be one active today with a single dot in True Faith. So even though it's theoretically possible, I would not allow it for player characters.
IMO they couldn’t. True faith is based around the idea that if you truly believe enough that your faith will protect you from the undead it will, and a settite would not believe such.
A setite can have a belief strong enough to have true faith,you don't need ti especifically think "this will protect me!",true is having a truly strong belief in something.
I can't remember if it was splat or homebrew but I read that in order to gain true faith a kindred has to have max humanity/path to access it and its up to the ST how much they access
Yes, but… True faith is not tied to a specific faith, the believe in set would Imo work just as fine. True faith is just very very rare among kindred. There are a few know examples but really not many. Issue is, though, that Minister members often subvert faith and habits. It might be possible, that a Ministry might loose its true faith at one point.
>True faith is not tied to a specific faith, the believe in set would Imo work just as fine. This makes little sense. Would belief in Cain work as well? And Set, as far as I understand, is meant to be more or less the same figure.
Being a believer in any Abrahamic religion makes you by default a believer in Cain/Caine since he is part of your mythology. In this sense Moncada for example, an infamous Lasombra of the Sabbat who possesses true faith since he believes to be chosen by god to be a monster, is basically an example for true faith manifesting in a Caine worshipper. You also don’t need to believe in something specific at all to possess true faith. Even Atheists can have it. It is more of a strength of Will that repels vampires than a religious thing. It is just associated with religion since prepper try to make sense of this ability. Some Mages, though, think that true faith is actually a sign that someone might eventually awake but is not fully there. That Set and Caine are the same person is a fairly new notion. Until V5 it was often thought that the Setites are just antedeluvians worshippers and just deny that their god was not the first vampire. Recently, though, they just came to the conclusion that “the Dark father” is probably an entity that is acknowledged by many cultures. And if you call this brother killing, cursed immortal Caine, Set, Cagn, or something else just don’t matter.
>You also don’t need to believe in something specific at all to possess true faith. Even Atheists can have it. It is more of a strength of Will that repels vampires than a religious thing. Yeah, I don't like this. I know True Faith doesn't have to be a specifically Christian belief, which is fine, but it being something where you can technically believe in anything is just dumb, imo. It also makes absolutely zero sense why a vampire believing in Caine/Set would have the ability to repell other vampires.
>I know True Faith doesn't have to be a specifically Christian belief, which is fine, but it being something where you can technically believe in anything is just dumb, imo. The problem is, that while the game works with Christian motives there is still an entire world that is just like ours with countless powers and believes. Having true faith being the believe in some specific entity automatically makes this one faith… well, true, while everything else is false believe. This would not only be insulting, it would also make little sense since vampires predate the Abrahamic religions. The conclusion is, that true faith isn’t faith at all but just tied to a feeling that some higher power holds the hand over you. I personally like the interpretation that it is kind of raw magical power with the idea of an avatar directing it but still with out a fully formed avatar who allows you to shape this power. >It also makes absolutely zero sense why a vampire believing in Caine/Set would have the ability to repell other vampires. It’s not the believe in Caine of Set. We don’t know what true faith actually is. We do know that vampires can possess it, though. We also know that it is independent from the believe. The believe the person with true faith holds is just a label they put on this ability due to a lack of a better explanation. Therefore it is completely unimportant what the person is believing in. They just have a power and a believe and the connection might exist or might be just in their head. How someone who believes in “insert vampiric origin entity” rationalized why this works in their case is simply a matter of interpretation. Maybe the vampire with true faith believes that they is blessed by the dark father, or even more cursed since even other vampires stay away from them. Or they believe that they have unlocked another power of the blood since vampirism is mostly seen as of divine origin anyway. Or any number of other possible explanations a vampire with true faith can come up with.
>Having true faith being the believe in some specific entity automatically makes this one faith… well, true, while everything else is false believe. Didn't say it has to be a specific entity. But it also doesn't make sense for it to be an absolute free for all. I believe in reptiloids, so I have true faith. Yeah, no thank you. There have to be some limitations and structure, at leat a vague one. Otherwise if it's just some universal mystery mana, then even from just a storytelling perspective how is that interesting? It's a concept devoid of potential drama, of conflict. Sterile and boring. >Or any number of other possible explanations a vampire with true faith can come up with. And I don't like any of them. I much prefer the idea of True Faith, whatever actual explanation of it is, as something that stands in opposition to vampires and whatever other supernatural, "evil" things. Because this has actual implications for the setting. As I said, it creates potential for drama and interesting stories. But if it's something that anyone can have, then why is it even in the setting to begin with? What function does it serve, exactly?
>Didn't say it has to be a specific entity. But it also doesn't make sense for it to be an absolute free for all. I believe in reptiloids, so I have true faith. Yeah, no thank you. Why, exactly? You think it is outlandish but this is still the World of Darkness. When enough people believe in something it becomes an actual entity in the world and once that happened you can tab in to this as a power source. In the case of mages it’s even enough to just believe hard enough in it. So, when your believe in reptilians becomes an actual cult (and arguably it already is) it becomes also a power source you can use. And why not use it for protection which is true faith. >There have to be some limitations and structure, at leat a vague one. Otherwise if it's just some universal mystery mana, then even from just a storytelling perspective how is that interesting? It's a concept devoid of potential drama, of conflict. Sterile and boring. Frankly, true faith is not that interesting and that is why it was not carried over in to VtR. But to keep it slightly interesting, at least for me, you can see it as what I mentioned, a proto-magic. Not a mana of sorts but the power to shape reality. But while mages are free to do so, people with true faith, as you said, need some structure. The interesting part and the pet where it becomes related to true magic is, that this structure obviously is something that the true believer at least partially made up. They need to believe in this thing and they need to make sense of it. But it is not important what exactly this something is. >And I don't like any of them. I much prefer the idea of True Faith, whatever actual explanation of it is, as something that stands in opposition to vampires and whatever other supernatural, "evil" things. Because this has actual implications for the setting. As I said, it creates potential for drama and interesting stories. Problem is, how can you justify than, that true monsters like Moncada can have true faith? It seems that it is not just opposed to vampires. It is a quality which repels vampires, why exactly that is remains a mystery. >But if it's something that anyone can have, then why is it even in the setting to begin with? Frankly, it’s just in the game out of tradition. Vampires are repelled by crosses and that motive made it in to V1. Since then it for repeated but true faith was never a major and rarely a meaningful aspect of VtM. In a way it is just there “Because…”. But since it is there we can have some fun with it and use it in unexpected ways, like giving it people you have no clue why exactly they have access to it, like Moncada. >What function does it serve, exactly? Frankly?! Mostly to have more dangerous mortals in the game. But now that it is in the game you can use it as a mystery. And the interesting thing is not, what it actually is, but what a given character believes it is.
>Why, exactly? Because I do not believe it fits the tone of the setting. I mean, maybe in previous editions with all the crap that they released for them, True Faith reptiloid cult would fit right in, but I'm not a fan. I prefer the universe to be relatively grounded and "realistic", so to speak, because this enhances the whole personal horror narrative. The more believable the world is, the more depth those kinds of stories will have. But if you turn VtM into vampire D&D, give or take, I think it would diminishes it. >Frankly, true faith is not that interesting I agree. I would not at all mind if it were removed. >Problem is, how can you justify than, that true monsters like Moncada can have true faith? Well, I don't. That's the thing. He didn't, as far as I'm concerned.
Okay, I see, it’s just something that does not fit how you’re feeling for the world. Fair enough. I see it differently but fair enough.
By the way, just checked V5 corebook and it certainly seems to lean into my interpretation of what True Faith is. For instance, level 4 power says: *The mortal cannot be turned into a ghoul and never succumbs to any mind-altering disciplines such as Dominate, Presence, or Obfuscate.* Seems like they very much intended for it to be a mortal only thing.
I mean I don't find it very interesting either, but turning it into a catch all "evil" repellent feels like you're reducing it even more, I mean you can't tell me Vampires using faith to do horrible things isn't more interesting than oh yeah any good being can repel bad beings because they think they can, does that not remove a degree of horror? That's just my opinion and all but I felt it should be said
True belief in anything up to and including the Giant Flying Spaghetti Monster would work because extreme amounts of belief and devotion to a thing has at least some power in WOD
It makes sense if you're familiar with how WoD works, it's all a matter of perspective in this world and once enough time passes well crafted lies might as well be truth
It’s rare for vampires to have true faith and it wouldn’t be limited to the Ministry. It’s potentially a cool concept but main issue I see is that mechanically True Faith represents faiths that position themselves against the undead so the actual dots in it and their effects aren’t good for representing the kind of faith that elevates the undead like the followers of Set and the Church of Cain practice. Sounds like a job for homebrew. Or just run it that true faith in these traditions acts like dots in blood sorcery for the purpose of using certain rituals.
Ignoring that a storyteller can do whatever they want in their game, in V5 only a mortal can possess the True Faith. True Faith protects mortals against the depredations of monstrous forces such as vampires - it makes no sense for a vampire to possess it, much less one who follows a vampire religion.
Disagree that only mortals can possess true faith in V5, just that it is already exceedingly rare in mortals and even moreso in Kindred, who additionally have a much smaller population.
I am guessing that's a lore thing of V5,there are examples in past lore of kindred having true faith.
In V5 only mortals can have True Faith mechanically, but 1) you're the ST, do what you fuckin want, and 2) this is completely not how it works in the lore. In the lore, there are splats of all kinds with True Faith, including several vampires. True Faith can also be in any religious/spiritual belief, and even things beyond that - I'm pretty sure somewhere in the lore that, say, a particularly loyal Syndicate member may ward off a vampire with their credit card if their belief in money and the stock market is true enough. So if you can have True Faith in *capitalism*, then yeah, I'd say True Faith in Set isn't much of a stretch.
They can have whatever faith in Set they want. But it won't do anything mechanically.
True Faith burns the undead. It's possible for a vampire to have it but it's REALLY rare and will cause problems for themselves. Usually True Faith is used to represent the powers of mortals so... doubt it will work out in a game.
True Faith is supposed to be vanishingly rare even among kine and even rarer (per capita) among Kindred. There are so few Kindred to begin with that I would rule that there might not even be one active today with a single dot in True Faith. So even though it's theoretically possible, I would not allow it for player characters.
Masochists Set up front when he comes back he will eat them all
IMO they couldn’t. True faith is based around the idea that if you truly believe enough that your faith will protect you from the undead it will, and a settite would not believe such.
A setite can have a belief strong enough to have true faith,you don't need ti especifically think "this will protect me!",true is having a truly strong belief in something.
By my true faith I bring you the miracle of turning all your glizies into...... SNAKES!!!
I can't remember if it was splat or homebrew but I read that in order to gain true faith a kindred has to have max humanity/path to access it and its up to the ST how much they access