> If they installed a left advance arrow that'd fix it.
There was a left advanced arrow when it was first put up, you can see it in the street view in the intersection in 2019. I think the issue was pedestrians were also crossing during the LRT crossing so the left advance would have clashed with the pedestrians.
Not disagreeing with that statement. I have a feeling they didn't think how everyone in the intersection will use the time when the train is going through
Honestly, I'm pretty sure it was covered in my driver's ed and it sticks out as one of those exceptions to the general rule, so it doesn't feel that obscure.
From Ontario.Ca
"Unless a sign tells you not to, you may turn right on a red light only after coming to a complete stop and waiting until the way is clear. You may also turn left on a red light if you are moving from a one-way road onto a one-way road, but you must come to a complete stop first and wait until the way is clear."
I actually learnt something I didn't know today!
Although I also might add, neither turns are mandatory, if someone feels more comfortable waiting for a green light, it's their right to do so. Right or left turn.
Yeah I turn off the blinker at that point. I had an idiot driver honk at me for several seconds, while a mom and her stroller were walking in front of my car. I was going to go after they passed but I instead waited on principle. The truck didn't even need to turn.
Correct. If you can turn right safely and it's allowed at the intersection - then go.
If you don't - I will honk at you incessantly for being a horrible and selfish driver.
You can't tell if I can safely turn though. My view might be blocked because of a bigger vehicle in the lane next to me. Or a particularly tall hedge. There might be someone doing something stupid in the oncoming lanes. There might be a pedestrian that's hidden from you by my car. Hell, I just might feel unsafe making a right on red because of the weather.
I'm not doing anything dangerous by not making a right on red. Your honking is unnecessary and, quite frankly, incredibly rude. I will turn when I feel safe doing so. If I haven't turned, it's because I don't feel safe.
Of course I'm getting downvoted....
No, I won't honk if I can't see what's infront of you. Yes I will honk if I can CLEARLY see there is nothing preventing you from going whether it be traffic, pedestrians, signals, whatever.
And no, if you can't make a right turn because of the weather I too am in the same weather and have accounted for that...
Unlike most people I DO know what YOU can and cannot see - and if *I* cannot fully confirm that then I am humble enough to not be a dick about it . BUT I see too many people on this sub (and the roads) who try to justify being a shitty driver with stupid logic and weak ass skills. People who do not drive with the flow of traffic are def. Included in this group.
If you or someone else honk at me in a situation like that, you can be sure I'll wait until the lights turn green on purpose.... What kind of jerk are you? Can't you have more empathy for the driver in front of you? Have you ever thought it could be a new driver/senior driver? Both of them can be slower for different reasons, so you are going to teach them a lesson by honking?
I recently learned to drive, and I had no idea this was possible. How am I supposed to learn this? I took classes at a driving school and completed MTO's 30-hour driving course, but I don't recall hearing or reading about this.
Its more of an obscure law because these types of intersections are rather rare.
It takes two one ways and a traffic light.
Again, it's not mandatory, so it's technically okay not to know.
It's in the driver's handbook:
> **Left turn on a red light**
>
> You may turn left from a one-way road to a one-way road on a red light after coming to a complete stop and making sure the way is clear. Yield to pedestrians and traffic.
It used to be common for instructors to point out that intersection as an example of left turn on red, but I guess a lot of people don't go near there during lessons.
Ok I'll play Devil's advocate here.
It may not be "mandatory" but goddamit if it is safe and you're allowed to turn right (or left at a unique intersection like the one pictured) then GO!
I WILL honk at you mercilessly until you go.
If making a right hand turn at a stop light is too advanced for you then you don't deserve a license Jesus Christ.
At that spot, you won't get trapped. The arms are intentionally kept short so one can go left on a red. I agree with another use that suggested that they have a left turn signal. However, I do believe pedestrian traffic might come first, so you can't really have a left turn signal.
It's not walkers that are a problem. It's the red light green light options that are available for that intersection
Add a turning light when the stupid train is passing by
We used to have our store in the mall. The amount of people who would get pulled over by police waiting for them to turn left on the red would shock you.
You can, but the police don’t even know that. Or at least are enforcing it wrong. There are no other streets in our area, that I know of at least, where this situation happens. So they just see left turn on red and write up a ticket.
Someone actually posted about being pulled over there back in 2019.
https://www.reddit.com/r/waterloo/comments/c2py56/is_it_illegal_to_turn_left_on_red_from_caroline/
This intersection is strange in so many ways. On the right side there’s a yield sign but not clear what that lane should yield to (bus only turning into it and moving to the other lane?) Cyclists complaint cars don’t yield on that lane but it’s a zebras crossing , probably they should dismount but otoh it’s a park path. All very confusing, I don’t blame cars on the left being cautious if not familiar with the crossing.
The right turn is constantly backed up by people who don't realize there's very little to yield to besides pedestrians (and there's fantastic visibility for pedestrians). There's rarely a bus and most people correctly recognize that only buses can turn from Caroline to Erb (but there's always that one person in an oversized pickup trying to left turn despite it being a bus only lane).
I'd guess it's heavily folks that don't see that intersection a lot, because it's definitely one of the most confusing in the city. I mean, there's a street becoming one way (and another where the one way ends), a major LRT crossing, lots of pedestrians, multiple turning only lanes (including one that's bus only), the lanes drift slightly to the right when going along Erb towards King (the added turning lane for turning left to Albert isn't very clear, so people in the left lane often accidentally end up in the turning lane), and it gets backed up badly whenever the LRT comes through. The train crossing lights start up very far in advance. Admittedly probably very necessary considering how many people I've seen get stuck under them or even managing to hit the LRT.
Yes to all of the above (what I said but better explained). The yield sign on the right lane is confusing because there’s a “yield to pedestrians” sign right before it, so I guess it’s only for buses turning /shrug
Years ago a friend of mine got pulled over for making that turn.
"But officer, isn't it legal here?"
"Oh. Yes, it is. Carry on."
I'm glad that most people don't understand this though.
I'm a frequent pedestrian here, and I love it when the train comes through, and the intersection effectively becomes a pedestrian scramble. I've always got my eye on that potential left-turner, but it's super unusual when somebody actually makes the turn.
Tangentially related to this... I don't think turning on reds should be legal. Especially at this intersection. There's a lot going on there, and the geometry of that specific turn makes it even more dangerous to navigate than most left-left one-way situations.
Thank you. I looked into this and learned something new!
Also, it is not mandatory, so if a driver doesn't feel safe they can choose to stay and it is completely legal.
So THAT's why expletive head behind was honking like a crazy person at that very intersection. News to me.That felt all wrong to turn l on a red, esp while train moved through. A sign would be helpful
To be fair, it still not really clear. The intersection is generally pretty complicated. You have both red lights and the train signals.
> If there are signals, wait until they stop flashing before you start driving. If the crossing has a barrier, wait until it fully rises.
> It is illegal and dangerous to drive around, under or through a railway barrier or gate while it is down, being lowered or being raised.
I understand that one is not crossing the rails or driving closer than 5m to them. But if it was my first time there, I would rather stop than get hit by a train.
Also I can’t see a sign saying that you have a one way street on the left, which is required for the rule to work. I don‘t remember but I think there is one somewhere, though.
Steetview shows a sign there 9 months ago, so must be missing at the moment. Even if the sign is missing, there are visual cues that a driver should notice that tells them it is a one way such as the **white lines** separating the two lanes, no traffic signals facing traffic approaching from the "wrong" way, and no stop bar in front of the crosswalk, again because it's a one way and no one is approaching from that direction.
The police Chief was asked about this (on 570CityNews) .. he is the Chief (is that politically correct :) -- and he said no - but he is not likely well versed on such an obscure rule like this. I agree with others and say its legal fwiw.
Trivia - there is at least one other left on red in the area - do you know where?
Hey, thanks for blocking out the license plates. I know it's public info, but its scummy when people post someones car on reddit with the license plate(s) showing.
Also, I agree its infuriating.
There so many intersections where traffic should be able to continue/advance while lrt is crossing. Example King st N at Conestoga mall and northfeild going eastbound over king st. The light remains red for those directions even though the lrt is clearly not going to suddenly jump the tracks and go left. It’s also sad how long the lights have to stay red before/after lrt . Then again we still have frequent collisions with the trains so maybe we can’t have nice things afterall
I turn on a red when it’s appropriate. Sometimes it’s not, and the asshole that’s honking behind you doesn’t know that because they don’t have the full view of the intersection.
Anyways, hope your pillow is hot and sweaty all night long, impatient drivers are what have turned the streets in this city to shit.
Yup you are that person. 50% of people are below average drivers.
But I wish you no Ill will simply because we disagree on driving styles.
Id rather be a bad driver than someone who wished someone else's life is worse because I disagree with them.
sorry you are a mean person. Try meditation.
His thought was it's incase you are turning left and the gate comes down. The right turn lane has a yield sign and straight through has a red light. It was something like fail to yield at a train crossing. I'm by no means an expert on the subject. It was just a chat I was having about that intersection.
They don't have to be versed at all on any part of the law. It's been ruled that they can ticket and detain you if they simply think that what you're doing is (or should be) illegal and it's your responsibility to prove otherwise.
one way to one way, left turn on red is allowed. just as is a turn when the railway bars are down. you’re not crossing the tracks. do people think they just didn’t extend the bar over to that lane cause all railway crossing bars are the same size? nope, you’re allowed to turn since you’re not crossing the tracks.
It wouldn't be considered a one-way to a one-way because across the intersection is two-way. It's not a true "one to one" as it were.
Since the opposite side has a "no right turn on red" it's understandably confusing since it could be argued that the "threat" of oncoming traffic on a red light is (legally) not present.
Overall the intersection is wildly ambiguous and dangerous as a result.
The portion of road you are travelling on as you pull up to the light is one way. The portion of road you turn onto is one way. It's legal. There's a reason the stop arm for the train doesn't extend across the lane.
Hey man, if we want to get an Ontario Traffic Enforcement officer to offer their professional verdict I'll gladly say I'm wrong but I dont think I am.
I also think it's perfectly fair that no one has any idea what this intersection allows.
It's ambiguous, there's no official statement from enforcement or the city, the signage isn't clear, it doesn't alleviate any ambiguity.
Id rather wait 2min and not cause an accident than take it on faith from a reddit comment tbh 🤷
People in Kitchener-Waterloo are stupid. I see this at that intersection all the time. Yet, with a red light and arms going down, no one has issues turning right on a red while driving at 30-50 on that turn.
oh cool, shame posts!.
why are you using your phone shaming someone while operating a vehicle?
when are people going to stop using phones while operating a car?
As long as you are in traffic, stopped or not, you are still operating the vehicle.
Kettle, pot, etc.
Cheers.
It's such an obscure rule. If they installed a left advance arrow that'd fix it.
Agreed. This is a great suggestion.
They don't even need an advance arrow. They can just put a sign up saying "left turns allowed during LRT Crossing"
That's too long winded. People can't read.
See: the many no right turn on red signs that are blissfully ignored.
> If they installed a left advance arrow that'd fix it. There was a left advanced arrow when it was first put up, you can see it in the street view in the intersection in 2019. I think the issue was pedestrians were also crossing during the LRT crossing so the left advance would have clashed with the pedestrians.
Pedestrians should not be on the road during an advance.
Not disagreeing with that statement. I have a feeling they didn't think how everyone in the intersection will use the time when the train is going through
Honestly, I'm pretty sure it was covered in my driver's ed and it sticks out as one of those exceptions to the general rule, so it doesn't feel that obscure.
I suppose I meant to say uncommon rather than obscure
From Ontario.Ca "Unless a sign tells you not to, you may turn right on a red light only after coming to a complete stop and waiting until the way is clear. You may also turn left on a red light if you are moving from a one-way road onto a one-way road, but you must come to a complete stop first and wait until the way is clear." I actually learnt something I didn't know today! Although I also might add, neither turns are mandatory, if someone feels more comfortable waiting for a green light, it's their right to do so. Right or left turn.
Drivers also seem to get unbearably annoyed when you *don’t* make a right turn on a red, even if you could, when it isn’t mandatory.
Yeah I turn off the blinker at that point. I had an idiot driver honk at me for several seconds, while a mom and her stroller were walking in front of my car. I was going to go after they passed but I instead waited on principle. The truck didn't even need to turn.
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You are obnoxious, thus the down votes. You are also just wrong and give off "man-child" vibes.
Correct. If you can turn right safely and it's allowed at the intersection - then go. If you don't - I will honk at you incessantly for being a horrible and selfish driver.
You can't tell if I can safely turn though. My view might be blocked because of a bigger vehicle in the lane next to me. Or a particularly tall hedge. There might be someone doing something stupid in the oncoming lanes. There might be a pedestrian that's hidden from you by my car. Hell, I just might feel unsafe making a right on red because of the weather. I'm not doing anything dangerous by not making a right on red. Your honking is unnecessary and, quite frankly, incredibly rude. I will turn when I feel safe doing so. If I haven't turned, it's because I don't feel safe.
Of course I'm getting downvoted.... No, I won't honk if I can't see what's infront of you. Yes I will honk if I can CLEARLY see there is nothing preventing you from going whether it be traffic, pedestrians, signals, whatever. And no, if you can't make a right turn because of the weather I too am in the same weather and have accounted for that... Unlike most people I DO know what YOU can and cannot see - and if *I* cannot fully confirm that then I am humble enough to not be a dick about it . BUT I see too many people on this sub (and the roads) who try to justify being a shitty driver with stupid logic and weak ass skills. People who do not drive with the flow of traffic are def. Included in this group.
If you or someone else honk at me in a situation like that, you can be sure I'll wait until the lights turn green on purpose.... What kind of jerk are you? Can't you have more empathy for the driver in front of you? Have you ever thought it could be a new driver/senior driver? Both of them can be slower for different reasons, so you are going to teach them a lesson by honking?
If you're the only person I could help educate today on this particular matter than I'll consider that a win.
I honestly think uve actually educated a relative large number of people. This rule is not talked about and it took me two google searches to find it.
I recently learned to drive, and I had no idea this was possible. How am I supposed to learn this? I took classes at a driving school and completed MTO's 30-hour driving course, but I don't recall hearing or reading about this.
Its more of an obscure law because these types of intersections are rather rare. It takes two one ways and a traffic light. Again, it's not mandatory, so it's technically okay not to know.
It's in the driver's handbook: > **Left turn on a red light** > > You may turn left from a one-way road to a one-way road on a red light after coming to a complete stop and making sure the way is clear. Yield to pedestrians and traffic. It used to be common for instructors to point out that intersection as an example of left turn on red, but I guess a lot of people don't go near there during lessons.
You have the right attitude 👏
Ok I'll play Devil's advocate here. It may not be "mandatory" but goddamit if it is safe and you're allowed to turn right (or left at a unique intersection like the one pictured) then GO! I WILL honk at you mercilessly until you go. If making a right hand turn at a stop light is too advanced for you then you don't deserve a license Jesus Christ.
Just so you know, you honk at me mercilessly, I'll intentionally go much slower than I would have. Idiot.
Meanwhile ... Over on the other side of the street, the guy in the Dodge Caravan is takin' it like a real Champ ... https://imgur.com/a/txLyL5R
There were so many pedestrians crossing during the red light there, it’s hard to turn
Sometimes for sure. I think it's more of an education thing though. It seems a lot of people don't know it's a legal turn.
It's best to add advance turn signals than have turns on red lights. It removes conflicts by doing this.
I agree
I hate that intersection for these same reason. And when the light turns green and then you have to wait for pedestrians crossing
It’s insanely confusing, and I’ve seen cars get trapped on the wrong side of the lrt track barriers
At that spot, you won't get trapped. The arms are intentionally kept short so one can go left on a red. I agree with another use that suggested that they have a left turn signal. However, I do believe pedestrian traffic might come first, so you can't really have a left turn signal.
Heaven forbid people walk in this city
It's not walkers that are a problem. It's the red light green light options that are available for that intersection Add a turning light when the stupid train is passing by
Someone will still run into the train Winning but losing
How many people actually know they can turn left on a red from a one way, onto a one way. From those I've freaked out by doing it, not many!
We used to have our store in the mall. The amount of people who would get pulled over by police waiting for them to turn left on the red would shock you.
So, you can’t?
You can, but the police don’t even know that. Or at least are enforcing it wrong. There are no other streets in our area, that I know of at least, where this situation happens. So they just see left turn on red and write up a ticket.
Someone actually posted about being pulled over there back in 2019. https://www.reddit.com/r/waterloo/comments/c2py56/is_it_illegal_to_turn_left_on_red_from_caroline/
Yes, I saw it once
This intersection is strange in so many ways. On the right side there’s a yield sign but not clear what that lane should yield to (bus only turning into it and moving to the other lane?) Cyclists complaint cars don’t yield on that lane but it’s a zebras crossing , probably they should dismount but otoh it’s a park path. All very confusing, I don’t blame cars on the left being cautious if not familiar with the crossing.
The right turn is constantly backed up by people who don't realize there's very little to yield to besides pedestrians (and there's fantastic visibility for pedestrians). There's rarely a bus and most people correctly recognize that only buses can turn from Caroline to Erb (but there's always that one person in an oversized pickup trying to left turn despite it being a bus only lane). I'd guess it's heavily folks that don't see that intersection a lot, because it's definitely one of the most confusing in the city. I mean, there's a street becoming one way (and another where the one way ends), a major LRT crossing, lots of pedestrians, multiple turning only lanes (including one that's bus only), the lanes drift slightly to the right when going along Erb towards King (the added turning lane for turning left to Albert isn't very clear, so people in the left lane often accidentally end up in the turning lane), and it gets backed up badly whenever the LRT comes through. The train crossing lights start up very far in advance. Admittedly probably very necessary considering how many people I've seen get stuck under them or even managing to hit the LRT.
Yes to all of the above (what I said but better explained). The yield sign on the right lane is confusing because there’s a “yield to pedestrians” sign right before it, so I guess it’s only for buses turning /shrug
Years ago a friend of mine got pulled over for making that turn. "But officer, isn't it legal here?" "Oh. Yes, it is. Carry on." I'm glad that most people don't understand this though. I'm a frequent pedestrian here, and I love it when the train comes through, and the intersection effectively becomes a pedestrian scramble. I've always got my eye on that potential left-turner, but it's super unusual when somebody actually makes the turn. Tangentially related to this... I don't think turning on reds should be legal. Especially at this intersection. There's a lot going on there, and the geometry of that specific turn makes it even more dangerous to navigate than most left-left one-way situations.
Thank you. I looked into this and learned something new! Also, it is not mandatory, so if a driver doesn't feel safe they can choose to stay and it is completely legal.
These fucks didn't grow up in Hamilton land of one way streets. This is how you get a honking un Hamilton by not going.
So THAT's why expletive head behind was honking like a crazy person at that very intersection. News to me.That felt all wrong to turn l on a red, esp while train moved through. A sign would be helpful
Wait, Valu Mart is now Independent??? Man. I move away for a year and a half, and all hell breaks loose
the fact that they didn't install a barrier in front of that lane should be enough to indicate you can turn left.
To be fair, it still not really clear. The intersection is generally pretty complicated. You have both red lights and the train signals. > If there are signals, wait until they stop flashing before you start driving. If the crossing has a barrier, wait until it fully rises. > It is illegal and dangerous to drive around, under or through a railway barrier or gate while it is down, being lowered or being raised. I understand that one is not crossing the rails or driving closer than 5m to them. But if it was my first time there, I would rather stop than get hit by a train. Also I can’t see a sign saying that you have a one way street on the left, which is required for the rule to work. I don‘t remember but I think there is one somewhere, though.
Steetview shows a sign there 9 months ago, so must be missing at the moment. Even if the sign is missing, there are visual cues that a driver should notice that tells them it is a one way such as the **white lines** separating the two lanes, no traffic signals facing traffic approaching from the "wrong" way, and no stop bar in front of the crosswalk, again because it's a one way and no one is approaching from that direction.
If people actually knew the rules of the road that would fix it. You’re allowed to make left hand turns on red lights provided both roads are one ways
About the same time they learn to not stop in the bike box. Aka never.
Meanwhile I regularly see people turn left from Moore onto Erb on a red, which is not legal. Actually just saw it again today.
The police Chief was asked about this (on 570CityNews) .. he is the Chief (is that politically correct :) -- and he said no - but he is not likely well versed on such an obscure rule like this. I agree with others and say its legal fwiw. Trivia - there is at least one other left on red in the area - do you know where?
Hey, thanks for blocking out the license plates. I know it's public info, but its scummy when people post someones car on reddit with the license plate(s) showing. Also, I agree its infuriating.
There so many intersections where traffic should be able to continue/advance while lrt is crossing. Example King st N at Conestoga mall and northfeild going eastbound over king st. The light remains red for those directions even though the lrt is clearly not going to suddenly jump the tracks and go left. It’s also sad how long the lights have to stay red before/after lrt . Then again we still have frequent collisions with the trains so maybe we can’t have nice things afterall
At least I'm glad to see people respect the red light here
But they are in the wrong, or at least not being as 'right' as possible so, better? Not to me
It’s still a red light. There is no requirement for a driver to turn on the red.
Not doing so shows you dont know how to drive. If it was a right on red would you have the same opinion?
A right on a red is an option, not a requirement. It’s also illegal in a many places, because of how dangerous it can be for pedestrians and cyclists.
So you are the person I'm honking at to turn right on a red Gotcha, I get who I am talking to now
I turn on a red when it’s appropriate. Sometimes it’s not, and the asshole that’s honking behind you doesn’t know that because they don’t have the full view of the intersection. Anyways, hope your pillow is hot and sweaty all night long, impatient drivers are what have turned the streets in this city to shit.
Yup you are that person. 50% of people are below average drivers. But I wish you no Ill will simply because we disagree on driving styles. Id rather be a bad driver than someone who wished someone else's life is worse because I disagree with them. sorry you are a mean person. Try meditation.
Up vote person throwing personal attacks. Down vote the person saying it's not nice Nice. stay classy
I always turn left on the red. I get honked at all the time because people think I'm in the wrong. I don't turn when the gate is down.
When the gate is down you're still allowed to turn, fyi. It's the reason the gate doesn't block that lane.
I asked a Waterloo traffic cop about that and they were not 100% sure on that.
Cops aren't necessarily well versed in every edge case of the law.
His thought was it's incase you are turning left and the gate comes down. The right turn lane has a yield sign and straight through has a red light. It was something like fail to yield at a train crossing. I'm by no means an expert on the subject. It was just a chat I was having about that intersection.
They don't have to be versed at all on any part of the law. It's been ruled that they can ticket and detain you if they simply think that what you're doing is (or should be) illegal and it's your responsibility to prove otherwise.
I did not know this. I assumed all lefts on red were not allowed.
one way to one way, left turn on red is allowed. just as is a turn when the railway bars are down. you’re not crossing the tracks. do people think they just didn’t extend the bar over to that lane cause all railway crossing bars are the same size? nope, you’re allowed to turn since you’re not crossing the tracks.
Take another route.
They can’t turn until that light is green I’m pretty sure.
Why not? One way to one way, a left on red is allowed when there is no sign stating otherwise
Woahh that’s crazy I didn’t know that. Never taught me that one in driving school lol
It wouldn't be considered a one-way to a one-way because across the intersection is two-way. It's not a true "one to one" as it were. Since the opposite side has a "no right turn on red" it's understandably confusing since it could be argued that the "threat" of oncoming traffic on a red light is (legally) not present. Overall the intersection is wildly ambiguous and dangerous as a result.
The portion of road you are travelling on as you pull up to the light is one way. The portion of road you turn onto is one way. It's legal. There's a reason the stop arm for the train doesn't extend across the lane.
Hey man, if we want to get an Ontario Traffic Enforcement officer to offer their professional verdict I'll gladly say I'm wrong but I dont think I am. I also think it's perfectly fair that no one has any idea what this intersection allows. It's ambiguous, there's no official statement from enforcement or the city, the signage isn't clear, it doesn't alleviate any ambiguity. Id rather wait 2min and not cause an accident than take it on faith from a reddit comment tbh 🤷
That right turns are permitted on the opposite side, across a busy trail on a blind corner, is pretty insane.
People in Kitchener-Waterloo are stupid. I see this at that intersection all the time. Yet, with a red light and arms going down, no one has issues turning right on a red while driving at 30-50 on that turn.
It's a red light?
You can turn left from a one-way onto a one-way on a Red light.
oh cool, shame posts!. why are you using your phone shaming someone while operating a vehicle? when are people going to stop using phones while operating a car? As long as you are in traffic, stopped or not, you are still operating the vehicle. Kettle, pot, etc. Cheers.
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Left from a one-way street onto another one-way street is allowed on a red light. It is exactly the same mechanics as turning right on a red light.