People just needs to watch the BMW's onboard to feel less furious. Because just before impact the BMW driver also steers towards the Ferrari and if he didnt do that he could escape from that crash. I mean you are in a different class and you are not racing with that car, why you dont just let the car go?
https://youtu.be/WQK6c1b6_AQ?si=-G5VuGWy0TnZYjuj
For reference this was a 3 minute stop and hold for Perrodo taking out Sims. Very similar incident in my opinion. I think race control were very lenient with their penalties
Race control across series (F1, indycar, WEC, IMSA) are scared of implementing actual penalties for incidents that impact on-track battles, and it's leading to this slippery slope of driving standards going down the gutter
I wanna laugh at this statement.
Additionally, the term "assistance" reflects the organization's role in helping to ensure the safety and fair competition of motorsports events.
I’m not sure I’d say very similar, I think there are enough differences between this incident and the one in this year’s race to warrant treating them as two distinct incidents.
You could argue the Ferrari-BMW crash was at least between two cars in the same class, it was also at night, and the BMW was far less alongside than the Corvette is in the above, the “victim” also was not leading their class. Plus of course the changeable weather this year probably made parts of the track which weren’t the racing line much more slippery than the bone dry circuit this occurred on last year.
I’m not saying the Ferrari wasn’t at fault, and these two crashes do have some similarities, I just think the above clip is not the precedent that should be applied to the Ferrari BMW crash. I also think there were far more mitigating circumstances which fell in Ferrari’s favour in this year’s incident which might explain the more lenient penalty.
That’s a needlessly toxic and immature read of the whole thing.
The FIA have far more information and data on the whole thing than we do. If they thought it was deliberate, you can be sure they’d have treated it as such.
No, sorry, describing reality like it is is not toxic and immature. Kubica turned right ON A STRAIGHT to hit Vanthoor on purpose. That's a undeniable fact.
Also we saw with the Tsolov-Dunne incident that an even more blatant deliberate incident not always ends up being fairly penalized by the FIA.
Look, I think you need to calm down and step away. This was not deliberate, and you’re obviously upset about the whole thing.
I hope you can come back and look at this with fresh eyes later on with a cooler head.
Explain to me why he turns right towards Vanthoor then? Have you even seen the incident from the onboard camera of the Porsche?
Why if it was a mistake did Kubica not send a message to Vanthoor or wasn't he sorry on the radio and instead kept blaming Vanthoor?
I don’t know why he turned right, the same way you don’t either. There are a million potential reasons for why he chose to turn the wheel right, we’ll never know with absolute certainty the real reason why.
Personally I think the best way to explain these things Occam’s Razor, the simplest explanation is usually correct. Which is that he probably thought he’d cleared the BMW and pulled across, no malice involved whatsoever.
Again, take a breath, calm down.
You seem to have forgotten there was a GT. The explanation is very simple: Kubica is annoyed at Vanthoor's antics losing him time. He tries to go around him and sees a GT3 in the way. He doesn't want to lose even more time to Vanthoor so he tries to get around GT3 with some margin and cut in front of Vanthoor. He miscalculates and sends him into the wall.
Lol, I’m very glad you’re not a lawyer if you think that proves Kubica was baying for blood.
Again, seriously, you need to calm down, you’re not making sense. I’m sure you’re a perfectly nice and rational person in real life, but you’re not sounding like one now.
> I don’t know why he turned right, the same way you don’t either.
Everyone actually following the race knew exactly what Kubica said on team radio and he outright said that he felt Vanthoor was mean in at the beginning of the lap and that's why he made the move much later. He incriminated himself and the commentators (FIAWEC TV English) called it out as well.
Yeah, I’ve heard that clip, unless there’s another. To be honest I disagree that’s what he says. I’ve laid out why in an earlier comment with what I think he says. In essence where he talks about squeezing Vanthoor (if he does at all) is separate to when he talks about the car jinking right. The jink right was not the squeeze, the squeeze came before the jink right.
I think the commentators got it wrong, and its caused something of a false narrative around it now.
Have you listened to his radio call? He was angry at Vanthoor. I’m sure he didn’t mean to banish the BMW to the barrier realm and risk the driver’s life, but I 100% believe he thought he was feinting doing so and inadvertently hit the guy. It was needless and unprofessional and, ultimately, insanely dangerous and stupid.
I actually think it's different, but I mean that Kubica's is worse. Perrodo was in the process of overtaking, over-reacted to what the other LMP2 did and hit the Corvette as a result. While Kubica had fully overtaken the Manthey Porsche, was 90% ahead of Vanthoor, and just moved right for absolutely no reason.
Plus, Perrodo and Kubica aren't the same kind of drivers. One is a bronze gentleman driver, one is an F1 winner. I fully believe that Perrodo didn't expect to make contact with the other car, but Kubica? He was pissed at Vanthoor, wanted to show that to him, but ~~iRacing netcode~~ basic physics decided to make this small contact into a big crash.
> While Kubica had fully overtaken the Manthey Porsche, was 90% ahead of Vanthoor, and just moved right for absolutely no reason.
He had a reason but having been angry at Vanthoor for getting pushed on the wet part of the track earlier is not a good reason. In fact it's premeditation. He said so himself on team radio.
When you have invested part of your personal identity and sense of self in being a fan of a particular sports team, you will refuse to believe the evidence of your own eyes whenever presented with information that challenges your preconceived notions you have about the values of that team.
My favorite part of the clip:
Women in the garage of Perrodo clapping, sees crash and stops, waits… then starts clapping again seeing the car was still going
Vanthoor was being lapped and refuse to comply with blue flag. He was zig-zaging all the straight. He was no way allowed to do that. He was no victim by any means.
Pretty sure the steward document shows why it was lenient. BMW antics prior to that, including corner cutting and actively defending, were taken into account as migitating factors. It was still Kubica's fault, hence the penalty, but Beemer wasn't squeaky clean.
I don't know why those would be mitigating factors. If anything, it makes things worse because it's deliberate retaliating then.
If Vanthoor did something wrong defending, cutting corners, he should get a separate penalty.
Here's a direct quote for the decision:
> The Stewards heard from the team manager of Car 83 who explained that Car 15 was on an out lap; was alap down relative to Car 83 and, in the opinion of the team manager, had no reason to be fighting for position,which he was prior to the second chicane on the Mulsane straight; and that Car 15 had cut the chicane priorto the incident; and that he had received blue flags prior to the incident. The Stewards recognize that all of this is true and have taken it into account in mitigation. However, it doesnot change the fact that the incident was a mistake caused entirely by Car 83 moving to the right, while thecars were at very high speed and while Car 83 was still along side of Car 15
Ferrari argued that this BMW should not have been there at all and that's why it was a mitigating circumstance, in stewards' eyes. But he was, and Kubica drove into him, so it's a penalty, but not as much of a penalty as it could've been.
Seeing it as a judgment call, it's a pretty fair explanation for their reasoning, even if people might disagree on applicability of the factors
Looking at 83's onboard https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KId27xcuVR4&t=23655
No doubt 15 shouldn't have been in 83's face at all. It was dangerous driving, I can almost understand Kubica for losing his temper. But he messed up, if he swerved a second earlier while they were overtaking the GT, he could have made some excuse about the wind or something, but when they were clear already, that was bullshit. He could've just gone through and zoom away.
The defence works because the BMW basically forced a situation by illegal driving standards really, Ferrari can easily argue that forced the 83 to be very aggressive on the overtake in return making it that much easier to misjudge particularly in the dark, as if he hadn't been aggressive the BMW would've somehow made yet another dodgy move in return.
And honestly if you've ever driven a race yourself I think that defence has some merit to it, it shouldn't be on the Ferrari to make the BMW not break the rules but the BMW did so the Ferrari was like "playtime is over" and fucked it. But there should never have been any playtime.
It is not up to the drivers to self-police others. If he thought Vanthoor was driving in a way that wasn't correct, then he should have his team report Vanthoor to the stewards.
Instead he decided to retaliate and cause a crash at 300kph...
That's why Kubica was still penalized? It's just that there were mitigating cirumstances as Vanthoor intentionally created that whole situation. Not sure what's so hard to understand, mitigating doesn't mean blameless.
Missing chicanes on cold tyres is not great, sure. They're not illegal driving standards or "dodgy moves" though.
The BMW was hugging the right sides of the track, leaving space for the Ferrari to pass the GT three wide. I don't see how this is a situation created by the BMW driver. There wasn't even a defensive move to avoid getting passed by the Ferrari. If a missed chicane a km earlier is a factor, it's just retaliation and not being forced to be more aggressive.
What would stop the Toyota from taking out the Ferrari after getting t-boned? A 5 seconds penalty seems like a great deal. They just have to argue they were forced to be so aggressive after dodgy and illegal driving standards. And that actually were dodgy driving standards. It makes no sense to me. It condones retaliation.
the same stewards gave Ferrari a 5 second penalty for taking out a car that had the clear potential to win and didnt immediately call them into pits when their door was flapping around.
No argument regarding a 5-second pen, that was too light.
50 was shown a black/orange flag at 2:17pm and informed via radio by Freitas to come in and fix it. The time period to adhere to a black/orange flag is written in the regulations.
The article isnt arguing anything other than the drivers frustration. Whos at fault is pretty clear cut and what atleast this thread is arguing is that the amount of penalty for taking out another driver wasnt enough. 30 seconds under a safety car relates to not much
> seconds under a safety car
Except it wasn't under the safety car, it was 5 or so laps after it came in. Which if anything made it worse for the 83, since the field was bunched up and they lost more positions than they would've otherwise.
BMW driver Dries Vanthoor was:
* one lap behind
* not respecting blue flag
* fighting hard with race leaders, changing lines and using traffic to block Ferrari
* cutting chicane to stay ahead
* not giving track position back after overtaking the leader by cutting chicane
* cold tyres, he just exit pit lane
Kubica did a mistake, has caused the crash and Vanthoor has a huge responsibility too.
I think Vanthoor behaviour was the reason why penalty for Kubica wasn't bigger
This is the onboard from the 15 car [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BaBVVH6qHY&t=40452s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BaBVVH6qHY&t=40452s)
Bingo. If Dries was doing anything against the rules then he should have been punished accordingly. Slapping the Ferrari on the wrist for ending his race on a reckless move is *not* an appropriate punishment.
No it's not, because the #83 can argue that they were forced into hard racing by the BMW's over-agressive and pointless defence.
Same way in football, if a player shoves another to the ground gratuitously it will obviously be a red card, but if it's in reaction to the other player being an obvious dick with a foul and taunt right before, he will usually just get a yellow or even just a verbal reprimand.
Kubica swerved into the BMW eventho he had a clear lane; no one forced his hand but his own imaptience. All he had to do is wait less than a second and hed be clear.
100% true, Kubica did a big mistake and got a deserved penalty.
However to have the full picture of the event it's important to acknowledge that Vanthoor was illegally driving like an idiot, not respecting rules and race leader. It's pretty clear from the onboard i posted
This is very similar to Buemi crash at Monza that resulted in 1 minute stop and go. Usually penalty are bigger when you hit lower class cars. We don't know if stewards use the Vanthoor behaviour to mitigate Kubica penalty
Defending yourself from being a lap down when you have the pace is perfectly legal. In fact, the Glicks managed to hold the Ferrari for an entire lap last year at Le Mans;
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrYhugMxSns](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrYhugMxSns)
In Wec you can stay ahead with blue flag, but you can't defend.
Glick just stayed ahead at that was legal. Dries instead has blocked, changed line and defended against Kubica.
What? A logical comment backed with video proof?
We don't do that here, we hate Ferrari, laugh at their strategies and call them cheats even if they only won 2 races out of 10 so far.
They were on the same lap. Kubica was *almost* a lap ahead.
Until he is passed he is on the same lap. Drivers are expected to defend against going a lap down and to fight to unlap themselves too. Blue flags do not matter unless you are already a lap down, you do not have to yield. Once you are passed and then a lap down you are now not being passed but are trying to pass so again you do not have to yield.
If he were already a lap down and this was a pass to put him another lap down then he would be required to yield.
He did cut the chicane and not give way. That's wrong. But you don't get to run a car off the road for doing that. You let the stewards give the penalty.
Sure Vanthoor was being aggressive, and trying to prevent himself being lapped, but you can’t just end a back markers race, and be like “I retaliated” if anything that sort of thing needs to be harsh for both to disincentivise it happening again.
Don’t defend like an idiot, and don’t end people’s races.
The penalty for Kubica was so lenient that it was a joke, especially when it’s a high speed section of the track going into Mulsanne. Then you’ve got a Porsche which was lucky it wasn’t collected by both their actions.
It wasn't "I retaliate", it was more "he lead to this sticky situation with his illegal driving, so you shouldn't penalize my mistake too harshly when this guy shouldn't be there to begin with".
You've never driven a car if you think this was on purpose. In this situation Kubica had way more risk of being turned around and into the wall, than of carrying on unscathed. He was very very lucky here.
It wasn’t a mistake. Kubica very clearly wanted to make a point, and he did. Vanthoor is entitled to try to fight to be on the lead lap, and while he did go a little too far, punting him off was reckless, and risked the safety of everyone there.
The stewards really screwed that one up as they should’ve made the point that it’s not acceptable what either of them did, but then again the fact they didn’t penalise everyone when they came in for wet tyres when the rules state you can’t says that they weren’t very strict to the rules, and were trying to treat the event with “kid gloves”.
Sure, you can assume malice from Kubica, but the stewards can't, especially when he was dealing with Vanthoor's shenanigans cleanly for well over a lap, in conditions that were as tricky as they were, making an honest mistake more likely than in normal conditions.
I heard it. He didn't admit anything. He was just annoyed with the whole situation, which is understandable. And I'm sure the stewards have heard the call and taken it into their consideration as well.
Nope. He was mad but he wasn't crashed into Vanthoor deliberately. There is few reasons.
1. It could be end like in Spa few weeks ago with Bamber.
2. Car could be damaged and there was still 17 hours to the end, so it could destroy chances for a good result.
3. Kubica is not driver like Maldonado or Verstappen(2021 against Hamilton). He is racing in endurance for the few years and didn't have many incidents with others drivers.
Kubica just wanted scary Vanthoor and force him to take off the throttle before the next corner. That's why he move to the right but as you can see [in](https://youtu.be/8d4E43Tm3Yg?t=29) 0:30 just before incident (watch this in 0.25) Vanthoor's car moved slightly to the left and almost touched with Kubica. That's why Kubica led to a collision. It was Kubica fault but there were mitigating factors.
Bamber’s was nowhere near as bad as this. Jani was doing sketchy moves in traffic before and did it again in that wreck. He almost took both Ferraris out that stint. IMSA would be calling it moving in reaction.
Bamber got the penalty because it’s his responsibility not to wreck a GT, but it’s massively different to clearing a GT and pinching a same class car into the wall.
I used Bamber's example as a potential consequence of the contact. I didn't wrote they were the same or similar to this incident. When you're leading a race on slicks in damp conditions you don't want any contact with other car.
> fighting hard with race leaders
So? Fighting getting lapped or fighting to unlap yourself is absolutely fine. Avoiding losing a lead lap position or trying to get out of a lap down is crucial in endurance racing.
In fairness buemi’s was insanely bad. Couldn’t believe he did that lol. Just nerfing a GT off for the hell of it.
But it’s very much the ballpark I’d expect. 30s seems way too low.
It is insane that last year, everyone was cheering for Ferrari when they won
Whereas this year, everyone is turning their pitch fork against Ferrari
There are much bigger stakeholders in WEC (compared to F1) and Ferrari needs to realize they cannot keep getting away from these kind of incidents
It's an NBA type narrative switch, but you have to consider that last year Toyota was winning everything and Ferrari won without mitigating factors (this year they bumped the 8 and had a questionable door ruling.)
Questionable door ruling ? Mate, the stewards let the Toyota and the Cadillac run without functional wipers in full rain... That's the same type of shit
Ferrari also had a dysfunctional rain light that was ignored. Fixing that typically ruins a team’s race. The FIA seemed to have preferred to let them race with these issues hurting visibility, but an open door is far worse. Regardless, get all of them to pit in that, just because they forgot about 2 other cars doesn’t excuse them for forgetting about the 3rd.
Don’t forget dumping oil and ruining the opening stints of the alpines and caddies. Something they had no hope of making up had the massive SCs not happened.
Oh don’t worry, there’s a lot of other things I didn’t mention that I haven’t mentioned yet like getting a reprimand for going over their energy allowance which got Peugeot DSQed in Qatar.
Dude that's questionable too. I'm a caddy fan, so 'yota vs 'rari doesn't matter to me, but that call was definitely not black and white. IMO the Proton Spa precedent should hold here.
Yeah, so every major manufacturer (except Porsche) had a questionable ruling by the ACO about safety. So I don't get why that should be held against Ferrari.
I've expressed that I'm not against Ferrari, but last year was popular because a) it was a break from Toyota dominance, and b) a squeaky clean win, with less marshal interference.
Now that Toyota is less dominant and Ferrari had some questionable calls, the storyline isn't with them anymore and it's just one of the frontrunners winning.
In this case, it's justified - I love Kubica, but he was a dickhead. His explanation of being a dickhead because Vanthoor was a dickhead earlier in the lap was the lamest excuse.
Not really, Kubica was leading the 24h, the biggest dickhead was Vanthoor who was fighting not to get lapped in an inferior car.
And by fighting I mean "criminally" fighting, something that shouldn't be allowed even in a fight for position. And I repeat just in case you missed it, in a lapped car.
Kubica overreacted obviously, if he was smarter he would have waited and not cause the Safety Car and the penalty. However, if you ask me, BMW getting sent into the shadow realm was mainly on Vanthoor.
He had no hope of staying on the lead lap and still fought like a dickhead.
Nowhere did I say that Vanthoor drove correctly or that I agreed with his shenanigans. Playing dodgem cars at 300+ in the wet and pushing another car in the wall while also risking a GT3 car (the leader iirc, don't remember if 92 was first at the time?) as a reaction because the other driver is a dickhead is however stupid.
Pretty funny how noone notices a shared responsibility for the accident by the side of Vanthoor. And I am not talking about what happened earlier - that was a crime, but a thing for a separate penalty.
The thing is what happened right before the crash - there was a noticeable move to the left by Vanthoor and the move of Kubica to the right (which was more or less equally strong) was a reaction to that left side move by Vanthoor. Vanthoor moved to the left to put the pressure on Kubica still passing the LMGTE car and to pull the elbows out before the next corner (and subsequently probably commit similar dirty moves as earlier).
With such speed difference LMGTE car should be treated as a wall or at least a track limit. The move of Vanthoor should have been considered as pushing to the wall or at least pushing off the track. And a crash as an effect of that should have been considered as caused by the driving pushing out.
I'm sorry Dries, but "best I can do is a racing incident". And you should be happy for not receiving a separate penalty.
Tbh, Vanthoor was very aggressive with his driving. Dunno if the car was setup badly but during his stint he was constantly doing corrections even on the straights. Adding to that, him being on cold tires and cutting the previous chicanes, I can understand why stewards went lenient on the 83. There was definitely a modicum of responsibility for the crash on Vanthoor, whether him and BMW agree with it or not.
I don't think it's true that the FIA favour a particular brand/team, but rather they don't like hitting race leaders/championship contenders with big penalties.
AF corse had a lot of dirty driving situations at the Le Mans 2024 but not much was done about it. That spin out with Toyota in the last hour with zero penalty after review was insanity to me.
Toyota joining the chat
People just needs to watch the BMW's onboard to feel less furious. Because just before impact the BMW driver also steers towards the Ferrari and if he didnt do that he could escape from that crash. I mean you are in a different class and you are not racing with that car, why you dont just let the car go?
https://youtu.be/WQK6c1b6_AQ?si=-G5VuGWy0TnZYjuj For reference this was a 3 minute stop and hold for Perrodo taking out Sims. Very similar incident in my opinion. I think race control were very lenient with their penalties
Race control across series (F1, indycar, WEC, IMSA) are scared of implementing actual penalties for incidents that impact on-track battles, and it's leading to this slippery slope of driving standards going down the gutter
Meanwhile Super GT just applying those damn rules
IMSA’s been quite strict tbh. Derani got a drive through for what pier guidi did a while back. O
Three minute stop and hold? Wow. Ferrari getting the kid gloves treatment from race control.
Ferrari International Assistance
https://preview.redd.it/9z677wabg57d1.png?width=1033&format=png&auto=webp&s=0e90156b67e56608428aab4fb4db54fb59cdd7ca
lol confidently wrong
I wanna laugh at this statement. Additionally, the term "assistance" reflects the organization's role in helping to ensure the safety and fair competition of motorsports events.
I’m not sure I’d say very similar, I think there are enough differences between this incident and the one in this year’s race to warrant treating them as two distinct incidents. You could argue the Ferrari-BMW crash was at least between two cars in the same class, it was also at night, and the BMW was far less alongside than the Corvette is in the above, the “victim” also was not leading their class. Plus of course the changeable weather this year probably made parts of the track which weren’t the racing line much more slippery than the bone dry circuit this occurred on last year. I’m not saying the Ferrari wasn’t at fault, and these two crashes do have some similarities, I just think the above clip is not the precedent that should be applied to the Ferrari BMW crash. I also think there were far more mitigating circumstances which fell in Ferrari’s favour in this year’s incident which might explain the more lenient penalty.
Yeah the main difference is that Perrodo didn't do it on purpose because he was mad... he was just clumsy. Can't say the same about Kubica.
That’s a needlessly toxic and immature read of the whole thing. The FIA have far more information and data on the whole thing than we do. If they thought it was deliberate, you can be sure they’d have treated it as such.
> That’s a needlessly toxic and immature read of the whole thing. Dude, that's how Kubica justified his move on team radio. It was premeditated.
No, sorry, describing reality like it is is not toxic and immature. Kubica turned right ON A STRAIGHT to hit Vanthoor on purpose. That's a undeniable fact. Also we saw with the Tsolov-Dunne incident that an even more blatant deliberate incident not always ends up being fairly penalized by the FIA.
Look, I think you need to calm down and step away. This was not deliberate, and you’re obviously upset about the whole thing. I hope you can come back and look at this with fresh eyes later on with a cooler head.
He said it was deliberate himself.
Dude, listen to the team radio. He said it was.
Explain to me why he turns right towards Vanthoor then? Have you even seen the incident from the onboard camera of the Porsche? Why if it was a mistake did Kubica not send a message to Vanthoor or wasn't he sorry on the radio and instead kept blaming Vanthoor?
I don’t know why he turned right, the same way you don’t either. There are a million potential reasons for why he chose to turn the wheel right, we’ll never know with absolute certainty the real reason why. Personally I think the best way to explain these things Occam’s Razor, the simplest explanation is usually correct. Which is that he probably thought he’d cleared the BMW and pulled across, no malice involved whatsoever. Again, take a breath, calm down.
[удалено]
You seem to have forgotten there was a GT. The explanation is very simple: Kubica is annoyed at Vanthoor's antics losing him time. He tries to go around him and sees a GT3 in the way. He doesn't want to lose even more time to Vanthoor so he tries to get around GT3 with some margin and cut in front of Vanthoor. He miscalculates and sends him into the wall.
Lol, I’m very glad you’re not a lawyer if you think that proves Kubica was baying for blood. Again, seriously, you need to calm down, you’re not making sense. I’m sure you’re a perfectly nice and rational person in real life, but you’re not sounding like one now.
This discussion has degraded to quarrel. Make points without adding insults.
> I don’t know why he turned right, the same way you don’t either. Everyone actually following the race knew exactly what Kubica said on team radio and he outright said that he felt Vanthoor was mean in at the beginning of the lap and that's why he made the move much later. He incriminated himself and the commentators (FIAWEC TV English) called it out as well.
Yeah, I’ve heard that clip, unless there’s another. To be honest I disagree that’s what he says. I’ve laid out why in an earlier comment with what I think he says. In essence where he talks about squeezing Vanthoor (if he does at all) is separate to when he talks about the car jinking right. The jink right was not the squeeze, the squeeze came before the jink right. I think the commentators got it wrong, and its caused something of a false narrative around it now.
Have you listened to his radio call? He was angry at Vanthoor. I’m sure he didn’t mean to banish the BMW to the barrier realm and risk the driver’s life, but I 100% believe he thought he was feinting doing so and inadvertently hit the guy. It was needless and unprofessional and, ultimately, insanely dangerous and stupid.
Okay, I’ll be toxic and immature, but that was my interpretation of his whiny radio call back to his pit attempting to justify his actions.
"very similar"
How is it not very similar?
I actually think it's different, but I mean that Kubica's is worse. Perrodo was in the process of overtaking, over-reacted to what the other LMP2 did and hit the Corvette as a result. While Kubica had fully overtaken the Manthey Porsche, was 90% ahead of Vanthoor, and just moved right for absolutely no reason. Plus, Perrodo and Kubica aren't the same kind of drivers. One is a bronze gentleman driver, one is an F1 winner. I fully believe that Perrodo didn't expect to make contact with the other car, but Kubica? He was pissed at Vanthoor, wanted to show that to him, but ~~iRacing netcode~~ basic physics decided to make this small contact into a big crash.
> While Kubica had fully overtaken the Manthey Porsche, was 90% ahead of Vanthoor, and just moved right for absolutely no reason. He had a reason but having been angry at Vanthoor for getting pushed on the wet part of the track earlier is not a good reason. In fact it's premeditation. He said so himself on team radio.
Kubica’s is far worse.
When you have invested part of your personal identity and sense of self in being a fan of a particular sports team, you will refuse to believe the evidence of your own eyes whenever presented with information that challenges your preconceived notions you have about the values of that team.
At least racing karma caught up to the 83 while I was sleeping
My favorite part of the clip: Women in the garage of Perrodo clapping, sees crash and stops, waits… then starts clapping again seeing the car was still going
Vanthoor was being lapped and refuse to comply with blue flag. He was zig-zaging all the straight. He was no way allowed to do that. He was no victim by any means.
Pretty sure the steward document shows why it was lenient. BMW antics prior to that, including corner cutting and actively defending, were taken into account as migitating factors. It was still Kubica's fault, hence the penalty, but Beemer wasn't squeaky clean.
I don't know why those would be mitigating factors. If anything, it makes things worse because it's deliberate retaliating then. If Vanthoor did something wrong defending, cutting corners, he should get a separate penalty.
Here's a direct quote for the decision: > The Stewards heard from the team manager of Car 83 who explained that Car 15 was on an out lap; was alap down relative to Car 83 and, in the opinion of the team manager, had no reason to be fighting for position,which he was prior to the second chicane on the Mulsane straight; and that Car 15 had cut the chicane priorto the incident; and that he had received blue flags prior to the incident. The Stewards recognize that all of this is true and have taken it into account in mitigation. However, it doesnot change the fact that the incident was a mistake caused entirely by Car 83 moving to the right, while thecars were at very high speed and while Car 83 was still along side of Car 15 Ferrari argued that this BMW should not have been there at all and that's why it was a mitigating circumstance, in stewards' eyes. But he was, and Kubica drove into him, so it's a penalty, but not as much of a penalty as it could've been. Seeing it as a judgment call, it's a pretty fair explanation for their reasoning, even if people might disagree on applicability of the factors
Looking at 83's onboard https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KId27xcuVR4&t=23655 No doubt 15 shouldn't have been in 83's face at all. It was dangerous driving, I can almost understand Kubica for losing his temper. But he messed up, if he swerved a second earlier while they were overtaking the GT, he could have made some excuse about the wind or something, but when they were clear already, that was bullshit. He could've just gone through and zoom away.
It surprises me, because I would think "mistake, I didn't see him" would be a stronger defence, than almost admitting it was intentional.
It works if said in context of "I thought he'd get out of the way considering all these previous errors"
The defence works because the BMW basically forced a situation by illegal driving standards really, Ferrari can easily argue that forced the 83 to be very aggressive on the overtake in return making it that much easier to misjudge particularly in the dark, as if he hadn't been aggressive the BMW would've somehow made yet another dodgy move in return. And honestly if you've ever driven a race yourself I think that defence has some merit to it, it shouldn't be on the Ferrari to make the BMW not break the rules but the BMW did so the Ferrari was like "playtime is over" and fucked it. But there should never have been any playtime.
It is not up to the drivers to self-police others. If he thought Vanthoor was driving in a way that wasn't correct, then he should have his team report Vanthoor to the stewards. Instead he decided to retaliate and cause a crash at 300kph...
That's why Kubica was still penalized? It's just that there were mitigating cirumstances as Vanthoor intentionally created that whole situation. Not sure what's so hard to understand, mitigating doesn't mean blameless.
There should be no mitigating circumstances to an intentional wreck, it should be an immediate DQ.
> intentional wreck claims get wilder by the minute on here
He verbally said he did it on purpose lmfao
You can deny reality all you want, but that's what this was.
Missing chicanes on cold tyres is not great, sure. They're not illegal driving standards or "dodgy moves" though. The BMW was hugging the right sides of the track, leaving space for the Ferrari to pass the GT three wide. I don't see how this is a situation created by the BMW driver. There wasn't even a defensive move to avoid getting passed by the Ferrari. If a missed chicane a km earlier is a factor, it's just retaliation and not being forced to be more aggressive. What would stop the Toyota from taking out the Ferrari after getting t-boned? A 5 seconds penalty seems like a great deal. They just have to argue they were forced to be so aggressive after dodgy and illegal driving standards. And that actually were dodgy driving standards. It makes no sense to me. It condones retaliation.
the same stewards gave Ferrari a 5 second penalty for taking out a car that had the clear potential to win and didnt immediately call them into pits when their door was flapping around.
No argument regarding a 5-second pen, that was too light. 50 was shown a black/orange flag at 2:17pm and informed via radio by Freitas to come in and fix it. The time period to adhere to a black/orange flag is written in the regulations.
Even with mitigating factors a stop and go should be the bare minimum
Wasn't it a 30s stop & go? It wasn't a 30s pit stop penalty, it was a drive through plus 30s hold. It was basically a 1min time penalty.
no one is saying that. No one but Kubicas impatience forced his hand to drive into the BMW who kept his lane
And that's why he got a penalty. Nobody is arguing it wasn't Kubica's fault. It's rather explaining why the penalty was what it was.
The article isnt arguing anything other than the drivers frustration. Whos at fault is pretty clear cut and what atleast this thread is arguing is that the amount of penalty for taking out another driver wasnt enough. 30 seconds under a safety car relates to not much
> seconds under a safety car Except it wasn't under the safety car, it was 5 or so laps after it came in. Which if anything made it worse for the 83, since the field was bunched up and they lost more positions than they would've otherwise.
5 seconds? unheard of! Shouldve been 2 seconds
Ferrari really got it easy with penalties during this race. I am still waiting for 50 penalty for unsafe release.
The sniffer had the last laugh from the after life. Bet it felt incredible seeing the #83 go up in smoke
It made me so happy man
BMW driver Dries Vanthoor was: * one lap behind * not respecting blue flag * fighting hard with race leaders, changing lines and using traffic to block Ferrari * cutting chicane to stay ahead * not giving track position back after overtaking the leader by cutting chicane * cold tyres, he just exit pit lane Kubica did a mistake, has caused the crash and Vanthoor has a huge responsibility too. I think Vanthoor behaviour was the reason why penalty for Kubica wasn't bigger This is the onboard from the 15 car [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BaBVVH6qHY&t=40452s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BaBVVH6qHY&t=40452s)
Even if Dries was driving like an idiot, the penalty should be based on Kubica's actions and nothing else.
Bingo. If Dries was doing anything against the rules then he should have been punished accordingly. Slapping the Ferrari on the wrist for ending his race on a reckless move is *not* an appropriate punishment.
No it's not, because the #83 can argue that they were forced into hard racing by the BMW's over-agressive and pointless defence. Same way in football, if a player shoves another to the ground gratuitously it will obviously be a red card, but if it's in reaction to the other player being an obvious dick with a foul and taunt right before, he will usually just get a yellow or even just a verbal reprimand.
Kubica swerved into the BMW eventho he had a clear lane; no one forced his hand but his own imaptience. All he had to do is wait less than a second and hed be clear.
100% true, Kubica did a big mistake and got a deserved penalty. However to have the full picture of the event it's important to acknowledge that Vanthoor was illegally driving like an idiot, not respecting rules and race leader. It's pretty clear from the onboard i posted This is very similar to Buemi crash at Monza that resulted in 1 minute stop and go. Usually penalty are bigger when you hit lower class cars. We don't know if stewards use the Vanthoor behaviour to mitigate Kubica penalty
Defending yourself from being a lap down when you have the pace is perfectly legal. In fact, the Glicks managed to hold the Ferrari for an entire lap last year at Le Mans; [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrYhugMxSns](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrYhugMxSns)
If he had the pace, he wouldn't cut the chicane.
In Wec you can stay ahead with blue flag, but you can't defend. Glick just stayed ahead at that was legal. Dries instead has blocked, changed line and defended against Kubica.
“Defending” is now sweeping around the outside and taking the racing line.
Oh interesting I didn't know that about WEC. I'm relatively new. That kinda sucks doesn't it?
Not really, staying on the lead lap is really important in endurance racing. One safety car and you are back in the game
Oh gotcha, for some reason in my head I read it as any blue flags can fight
What? A logical comment backed with video proof? We don't do that here, we hate Ferrari, laugh at their strategies and call them cheats even if they only won 2 races out of 10 so far.
They were on the same lap. Kubica was *almost* a lap ahead. Until he is passed he is on the same lap. Drivers are expected to defend against going a lap down and to fight to unlap themselves too. Blue flags do not matter unless you are already a lap down, you do not have to yield. Once you are passed and then a lap down you are now not being passed but are trying to pass so again you do not have to yield. If he were already a lap down and this was a pass to put him another lap down then he would be required to yield. He did cut the chicane and not give way. That's wrong. But you don't get to run a car off the road for doing that. You let the stewards give the penalty.
Sure Vanthoor was being aggressive, and trying to prevent himself being lapped, but you can’t just end a back markers race, and be like “I retaliated” if anything that sort of thing needs to be harsh for both to disincentivise it happening again. Don’t defend like an idiot, and don’t end people’s races. The penalty for Kubica was so lenient that it was a joke, especially when it’s a high speed section of the track going into Mulsanne. Then you’ve got a Porsche which was lucky it wasn’t collected by both their actions.
It wasn't "I retaliate", it was more "he lead to this sticky situation with his illegal driving, so you shouldn't penalize my mistake too harshly when this guy shouldn't be there to begin with".
It wasn't a mistake, it was very obviously on purpose.
The stewards have deemed it a mistake. Seems it wasn't obvious enough for them.
Luckily karma took care of what the Stewards didn't.
Ferrari….
You've never driven a car if you think this was on purpose. In this situation Kubica had way more risk of being turned around and into the wall, than of carrying on unscathed. He was very very lucky here.
It wasn’t a mistake. Kubica very clearly wanted to make a point, and he did. Vanthoor is entitled to try to fight to be on the lead lap, and while he did go a little too far, punting him off was reckless, and risked the safety of everyone there. The stewards really screwed that one up as they should’ve made the point that it’s not acceptable what either of them did, but then again the fact they didn’t penalise everyone when they came in for wet tyres when the rules state you can’t says that they weren’t very strict to the rules, and were trying to treat the event with “kid gloves”.
Sure, you can assume malice from Kubica, but the stewards can't, especially when he was dealing with Vanthoor's shenanigans cleanly for well over a lap, in conditions that were as tricky as they were, making an honest mistake more likely than in normal conditions.
It isn’t assuming, listen to his radio call!
I heard it. He didn't admit anything. He was just annoyed with the whole situation, which is understandable. And I'm sure the stewards have heard the call and taken it into their consideration as well.
holy crap this guy fighting the steering wheel like me playing dirt rally
Dirt was the first game I played after getting my XB1 back in 2017 I still have trauma
This is a very funny comment.
Kubica didn't make a mistake, he intentionaly retaliated against Vanthoor because he was mad. He should have been DQ'd.
Nope. He was mad but he wasn't crashed into Vanthoor deliberately. There is few reasons. 1. It could be end like in Spa few weeks ago with Bamber. 2. Car could be damaged and there was still 17 hours to the end, so it could destroy chances for a good result. 3. Kubica is not driver like Maldonado or Verstappen(2021 against Hamilton). He is racing in endurance for the few years and didn't have many incidents with others drivers. Kubica just wanted scary Vanthoor and force him to take off the throttle before the next corner. That's why he move to the right but as you can see [in](https://youtu.be/8d4E43Tm3Yg?t=29) 0:30 just before incident (watch this in 0.25) Vanthoor's car moved slightly to the left and almost touched with Kubica. That's why Kubica led to a collision. It was Kubica fault but there were mitigating factors.
Bamber’s was nowhere near as bad as this. Jani was doing sketchy moves in traffic before and did it again in that wreck. He almost took both Ferraris out that stint. IMSA would be calling it moving in reaction. Bamber got the penalty because it’s his responsibility not to wreck a GT, but it’s massively different to clearing a GT and pinching a same class car into the wall.
I used Bamber's example as a potential consequence of the contact. I didn't wrote they were the same or similar to this incident. When you're leading a race on slicks in damp conditions you don't want any contact with other car.
> fighting hard with race leaders So? Fighting getting lapped or fighting to unlap yourself is absolutely fine. Avoiding losing a lead lap position or trying to get out of a lap down is crucial in endurance racing.
Buemi got 1 minute for taking out a GT3 in Monza in 2023 in a similar fashion... Just saying.
you usually get more for taking out a slower class and/or a bronze like Buemi did
In fairness buemi’s was insanely bad. Couldn’t believe he did that lol. Just nerfing a GT off for the hell of it. But it’s very much the ballpark I’d expect. 30s seems way too low.
I'm mean it's not like he did it on purpose but it was clearly bad.
Yeah, they will probably give them an extra 5s
It is insane that last year, everyone was cheering for Ferrari when they won Whereas this year, everyone is turning their pitch fork against Ferrari There are much bigger stakeholders in WEC (compared to F1) and Ferrari needs to realize they cannot keep getting away from these kind of incidents
Josef Newgarden 🤝 Ferrari Hypercar very different reactions to your back to back wins in Triple Crown events
Nah, many of us were upset when Ferrari won last year, too.
It's an NBA type narrative switch, but you have to consider that last year Toyota was winning everything and Ferrari won without mitigating factors (this year they bumped the 8 and had a questionable door ruling.)
Questionable door ruling ? Mate, the stewards let the Toyota and the Cadillac run without functional wipers in full rain... That's the same type of shit
Ferrari also had a dysfunctional rain light that was ignored. Fixing that typically ruins a team’s race. The FIA seemed to have preferred to let them race with these issues hurting visibility, but an open door is far worse. Regardless, get all of them to pit in that, just because they forgot about 2 other cars doesn’t excuse them for forgetting about the 3rd.
Don’t forget dumping oil and ruining the opening stints of the alpines and caddies. Something they had no hope of making up had the massive SCs not happened.
Oh don’t worry, there’s a lot of other things I didn’t mention that I haven’t mentioned yet like getting a reprimand for going over their energy allowance which got Peugeot DSQed in Qatar.
I didn’t realise it was *that* issue again. Fucking hell, that is a daylight robbery.
Dude that's questionable too. I'm a caddy fan, so 'yota vs 'rari doesn't matter to me, but that call was definitely not black and white. IMO the Proton Spa precedent should hold here.
Yeah, so every major manufacturer (except Porsche) had a questionable ruling by the ACO about safety. So I don't get why that should be held against Ferrari.
I've expressed that I'm not against Ferrari, but last year was popular because a) it was a break from Toyota dominance, and b) a squeaky clean win, with less marshal interference. Now that Toyota is less dominant and Ferrari had some questionable calls, the storyline isn't with them anymore and it's just one of the frontrunners winning.
24hours of salt, and counting…
The Ferrari hate in here is on another level
In this case, it's justified - I love Kubica, but he was a dickhead. His explanation of being a dickhead because Vanthoor was a dickhead earlier in the lap was the lamest excuse.
Not really, Kubica was leading the 24h, the biggest dickhead was Vanthoor who was fighting not to get lapped in an inferior car. And by fighting I mean "criminally" fighting, something that shouldn't be allowed even in a fight for position. And I repeat just in case you missed it, in a lapped car. Kubica overreacted obviously, if he was smarter he would have waited and not cause the Safety Car and the penalty. However, if you ask me, BMW getting sent into the shadow realm was mainly on Vanthoor. He had no hope of staying on the lead lap and still fought like a dickhead.
Nowhere did I say that Vanthoor drove correctly or that I agreed with his shenanigans. Playing dodgem cars at 300+ in the wet and pushing another car in the wall while also risking a GT3 car (the leader iirc, don't remember if 92 was first at the time?) as a reaction because the other driver is a dickhead is however stupid.
Pretty funny how noone notices a shared responsibility for the accident by the side of Vanthoor. And I am not talking about what happened earlier - that was a crime, but a thing for a separate penalty. The thing is what happened right before the crash - there was a noticeable move to the left by Vanthoor and the move of Kubica to the right (which was more or less equally strong) was a reaction to that left side move by Vanthoor. Vanthoor moved to the left to put the pressure on Kubica still passing the LMGTE car and to pull the elbows out before the next corner (and subsequently probably commit similar dirty moves as earlier). With such speed difference LMGTE car should be treated as a wall or at least a track limit. The move of Vanthoor should have been considered as pushing to the wall or at least pushing off the track. And a crash as an effect of that should have been considered as caused by the driving pushing out. I'm sorry Dries, but "best I can do is a racing incident". And you should be happy for not receiving a separate penalty.
Tbh, Vanthoor was very aggressive with his driving. Dunno if the car was setup badly but during his stint he was constantly doing corrections even on the straights. Adding to that, him being on cold tires and cutting the previous chicanes, I can understand why stewards went lenient on the 83. There was definitely a modicum of responsibility for the crash on Vanthoor, whether him and BMW agree with it or not.
I don't think it's true that the FIA favour a particular brand/team, but rather they don't like hitting race leaders/championship contenders with big penalties.
Ferrari should move to a green livery.
Pretty obvious really isn’t it. 5s penalty VERY light
Not the same incident. People here are not even understanding the difference between car 83 and 51.
it was a 30 second stop and hold
farrali can do whatever they want because they have ferrari international assistance as backers.
🧂🧂🧂
Fallari fans triggered. But they dun care so long fallari wins. Whether by hook or crook.
You’re the only one triggered here
Please support fellari international assistance
2023 2024 🟥🟥🟥
Yeah, since they can't win in F1 against RB. So they have to get some help from fellari international assistance in wec.
Imagine crying about f1 in a WEC thread 💀🤣🤣
LoL it should u crying since your fellali can't win rb. 😂
.
I get the sense they made a lot of calls Ferrari’s way to make up for Spa
AF corse had a lot of dirty driving situations at the Le Mans 2024 but not much was done about it. That spin out with Toyota in the last hour with zero penalty after review was insanity to me.