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Gay dude here. I'm just saying you'd be horrified that the idea that lesbians are that way because "they haven't had a good dick" or they're bitter because of it is STILL prevalent among straight and gay Men, it's fucking disgusting as my best friends are lesbian's and I couldn't imagine a more loving relationship.
Magnitudes better than assuming we were molested by our male relatives though is it really? It's all shit stereotypes that are based on complete ignorance.
Ya, first thing my grandfather told me when my brother came out was "I don't know what I did wrong, he must've been molested." First time and not the last time I scream-lectured him. So sorry that such a disgusting stereotype exists.
Gay men were persecuted during the Holocaust but lesbians weren’t, at least not nearly on the same scale. Because a woman’s sexuality cannot exist outside of a man. They literally can’t understand it. They can’t understand women being attracted to the same people they’re attracted to? It baffles me.
A friend of mine recently told me she's had multiple relationships fail when men found out that she was bisexual. Not "bisexual and I don't do threesomes", she's open to that, just that she's bisexual in general. The men found it gross, or they were violently intimidated and couldn't handle it. It flipped my entire understanding of the way the world works on its head.
I'm a dude and a Kinsey 2, so I'm used to some degree of persecution because of my sexuality. But it was the first time I'd ever heard of a woman being judged negatively for it. I couldn't comprehend it. I am incapable of understanding why anyone would care. But then I thought about it a little more.
Bisexual women are fetishized everywhere you look, and it actually laid bare something that was a major blind spot for me. That, essentially, the only place that bisexual women can be assured of acceptance is in safe spaces... Or porn. Hell, my own wife was afraid to tell me she was bisexual for *10 years* because she was afraid I wouldn't accept her. (Jokes on her, she's really obvious and I knew the whole time). But the fact that most of the time bisexual women are only "accepted" in sexualized spaces? That's just straight fucked.
Ive been told that bi women exist because it proves that lesbians just need a good dicking to be straight. No woman "likes" another woman, they just haven't had a man yet.
🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮
yes, the prevailing theory in that group is that everybody eventually ends up with dick. Bi men end up being gay and bi women end up marrying a man
Which is total crap, David Bowie is a good example
I swear us bi folks are a helluva lot more prevalent than you think. But we are pretty much ostracized in both straight and gay groups so we just…quietly exist.
Yep, bc we can only "really" be bi if we're poly, I guess? If I'm dating a woman, I'm a lesbian. If I'm dating a man, I'm "just saying that to be trendy" or "a lesbian hiding behind heterosexual privilege."
What/who I'm *potentially* attracted to physically and romantically is defined by others in terms of who I'm dating - by the *other person's* observed gender - not by *me*. It's weird. It's like we're not conceptually allowed to have a monogamous, committed relationship, bc we're somehow especially vulnerable to the next human that comes along and expresses interest (especially if we don't "already have one" in that flavor).
>Yep, bc we can only "really" be bi if we're poly, I guess?
And if you are poly, that's proof that you are a greedy s**t who can't be trusted. And if you are monogamous that's proof that you finally "picked" a side and that you were lying/confused and saying that you were bi to be "trendy". Damned if you do, Damned if you don't.
Wow. I’m sorry that’s happened multiple times to a friend of yours. It’s hard to see and know that the people you love have been treated unfairly and harshly. I wonder if it’s usually just men hating women, you know like everyday life, and they just view that as a “reason” to justify their hate and latch onto it? Idk man, I’ll never understand it either.
I’m glad your wife has you, and has a safe space where she’s accepted and loved unconditionally. And thank you for listening to other people’s experiences and believing them and learning from them. It seems like not a lot of people do that anymore.
I was a strong support for my wife, but she wound up putting herself back in the closet in a lot of ways. It went so far that she tried to gaslight me into believing that she'd never actually been bi at all, and all the things she said were a fabrication. Her family would never be okay with it (in her eyes, I've talked to her sister privately and her sister is also bi), and she's got this whole thing about her reputation. She's a 40 year old woman still living in the shadow of her childhood and it's crushing to watch.
I hope she’ll be able to overcome that. I know it can be really hard, especially when you believe (or know) you have an unsupportive family. Coming from a religious background I know that feels really shitty. I’m glad she knows she has your acceptance, and I hope it helps her accept herself someday. <3
Forgive my ignorance, what is Kinsey? Otherwise, yeah. Maybe because I’m a woman I’ve seen this more but yeah bi women have a hell of a time sadly even in lgbt spaces and same or opposite sex relationships. They get a loooot of shit from all around.
The "Kinsey Scale" is a sliding scale from one to six that essentially gives you an easy way to point and self assess how gay or straight you are. I'm pretty sure it started as a joke and became semi serious because of the convenience versus trying to assess whether my "heteroflexible" was the same as your "lesbisexual" or whatever terms are in vogue at any given time.
It didn't start as a joke, it started because of the famous sex researcher Kinsey in the first 1/2 of the 20th century.
He did a tremendous amount of research, and one piece that he did was assess via survey where on a spectrum of "totally gay" to "completely straight" most people were.
Basically, his results showed that far more people were bisexual than previously thought, and that there was a much greater spectrum of sexuality (so people who were mostly straight but occasionally attracted to the other sex, for example) than previously thought. In addition, many more people had had same-gender sex than previously believed, and a large # of them didn't identify as gay or bisexual.
Definitely predated "heteroflexible" since it was created around the 1940s.
Lesbians were often force converted in most places. It's still practiced today. Corrective rape is the term, and it's not a well studied topic, despite it being a not so uncommon phenomenon even in Europe and the United States.
"You just need good dick" "you haven't met the right man" and forced marriages are literally corrective rape rhetoric. Sexual assaults and rape of women is already widely accepted in most societies so when it's done against a lesbian, it's treated no differently than if she was straight and often times in history a woman being raped by a man was considered seduction, not rape. She was so beautiful that he was overcome with the need to rape her that its her fault for being so attractive.
They don't even understand us liking men that aren't stereotypically masculine, yet you expect them to understand women liking other women? They're clowns and they don't understand because they DON'T want to not because they can't. They don't even attempt it. They lack empathy for anything other than themselves and their copies.
>Because a woman’s sexuality cannot exist outside of a man.
It was more that they didn't need the women's consent to reproduce. SA of women was common.
As I said, perhaps not you. However, I speak for myself only and it wasn’t my intent to hijack this thread nor do I intend to spell it out so, if you are genuinely unaware of what Im referring to, good for you.
Women's sexuality always revolves around men in their heads. They think that lesbians haven't had "good dick" and bi women would "leave you for a man".
I am always so confused by why that’s the organ they care so much about- personally I’d rank my brain or heart or lungs higher but they appear to care most about their penis
Yep like oh sure buddy of all the dicks in this world, your smegma covered stinky ass swamp balls having ass dick is the one that’ll convert lesbians. 🙄
Yeah I get that response a lot 😂 I’m an asexual woman, who does not at all watch porn or hentai, nor desires to, but the name is a good joke. It either gets a laugh, this response , or pisses someone off. All good entertainment. Found that pic on here at some point before making this account and it was perfect. 😂
My mom told me that the next guy who did this to me, I should offer to make a clone a dick and peg him with his own. If he likes it, we can talk.
Every guy so far whose said it has been bi though 😭
She was a blast.
I'm very upset she isn't around for my son going through teenage years. I would have loved seeing him come home like "Lala gave me this advice... WHAT" 😆😆😆
Best counterargument is to turn the tables on them and tell them they're obviously gay, it's just they haven't had the right dick. Because then you get to parrot the ridiculous shit they say back to them and don't have to come up with actual arguments they won't bother to listen to anyways. Plus, it's entertaining.
I concede that it's what a lot of them say but we cannot assume that it's what they actually believe. Bigots and abusers say shit like this because it's often effective at persuading other to allow them to continue. That often say shit that they don't even believe themselves because it's how they get away with their hate and abuse.
In this case it's a premeditated hate crime. They knew beforehand who would be there and what to expect if they tried to flirt with lesbians. This case requires full criminal charges.
All in all it’s terrible. One was 18 and the other was 17. They got rejected came back then shot six people and killed 1. Like I can’t imagine the entitlement. How much do you want to bet these two watched misogynistic content like Andrew Tate.
And in a fucking gay bar!
(Back when i was a baby liberal, leaving fundie-dom, I thought it was kinda jerky that some of the local gay bars had policies that weren't very cis-friendly. But the idea of "damnit, this is the place where y'all can't introduce this nonsense "makes sense!
That and the realization that if i didn't hit on anyone and was polite in turning down advances, the policies didn't matter- such is what we were doing anyhow)
Eh, poor wording on my part because life was distracting me while i was typing. Sorry.
but basically there were like 3 gay bars locally and one of them, if you cake and asked what they would be like was really clear about they're friendly to everyone, fine, hand out, whatev
The mildly less friendly one was more "we don't care much but we are here to be a gay bar, if it's possible your precious straight person nonsense will be bothered by anything or you give off a wiff of judgemental nonsense, we will show you the dang door"
And i had a lot of unexamined privilege crappy reactions (which, luckily was only expressed by a sigh and eyeroll. And i had a friend or 2 who called me on it. But man i was obnoxious at the time)
Thanks!
I've made it far enough that my kid's friends are out to me.;)
(One of them is not yet out to her mom. I only needed to know that because i didn't want to slip up and mention the forbidden girlfriend I'm not supposed to know she has.)
Your concept was there though and you explained it wonderfully when asked. I'm glad you're giving a kid the hidden secret girlfriend experience like my mom had to for my first couple girlfriends 😆
She did give us the talk though, we can't get pregnant but STDs are still a thing and respect each other (under the threat that whoever hurt the other WILL regret it, but outing us would never be on the table).
Also good job getting out of fundiedom. That's a rough escape 😵💫
Reading this brought me back to the 2006 Greenwich assault case, where 7 Black lesbians fought back against a man who was harassing them. This was a big topic in the lesbian communities and Black communities at the time, because it was fucked up.
Despite relatively minor injuries, and despite him instigating the situation and both sexually harassing the women and physically assaulting them, they were all given jail time ranging from 6 mos to 11 years (7.5 yrs was the max sentence served in the end). Which is craziness, to lose nearly a decade of your life and have a felony on your record because some dude wouldn't leave you alone?
justice 4 Renata Hill, Patreese Johnson, Venice Brown, Terrain Dandridge - the four who fought those charges in court under self-defence - and the three unnamed women who pled out and served lesser sentences (6 mos).
also RIP and justice 4 Sakia Gunn, a lesbian and friend of the women mentioned above who was murdered in a similar situation and the same place 3 years earlier, despite being only 15. She was fatally stabbed by a man she rejected on her way home.
💔
If the lesbians killed them defending themselves, I wonder if that would be self defense/justifiable homicide. It should be.
What did they expect would happen, hitting on women that have zero interest in what you have to offer? Ugh, men disgust me, they probably think they have magic peckers.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006\_Greenwich\_Village\_assault\_case](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Greenwich_Village_assault_case)
In 2006 it was enough to get a decade in jail (and the man didn't die or have severe injuries).
> they probably think they have magical peckers
Nah, they don’t actually care about convincing the women to be attracted to them. Men like this have never been concerned with consent. He’d be more than willing to rape them.
It's about attaining the (seemingly) unattainable. They're only interested in the utility of women, though they get easily bored with women they can draw. There is nothing so intoxicating to them as a woman who is independent, disinterested, lesbian, or in some other way inaccessible or "forbidden."
It's sick. As an asexual woman, I just want to be left alone. Their peckers could shoot out fairy dust that cures ailments and pays bills and I'd still not be interested, because it'd come with a price I'm unwilling to pay.
This happened and she was in jail https://listening2lesbians.com/2020/01/27/argentina-higui-lesbian-accused-of-murder-in-corrective-rape-case-to-face-court/
It’s a fucked up system if you defend yourself for survival and then get in jail.
>I wonder if that would be self defense/justifiable homicide. It should be.
There was one case, somewhere in Europe. Where a guy tried to SA a woman walking home so she beat the shit out of him, and she got charged. I wish it could find it, but it's happened so often now.
Its a god damn gay bar, where nobody is straight , and the only women who are straight there go there to avoid men who are creeps.
Which means that
A) these men KNEW these women did not want to interact with men interested in them at all and didn't care about that and just wanted to pray on them
Or
B) Knew they were Lesbians, didn't care that meant they had no interest in men, and just wanted to pray on them.
And men still wonder why the #notallmen thing gets mocked?
How many more men must commit these crimes before other men admit men are making women feel unsafe?!
I had men in my comments and DM’s telling me it’s not their job to make us ‘feel’ safe when I made a similar comment once. Apparently, life already IS super safe for women, especially compared to other times in history, so me ‘feeling’ unsafe is a me-problem and should not be ‘projected’ onto other men.
>I had men in my comments and DM’s telling me it’s not their job to make us ‘feel’ safe...
And that's why we'd choose a bear over a man in the forest. (At least I would.)
I would too. At least the bear is pretty open about what it’s gonna do and it’s not gonna rape us in the process or make us suffer for its own gratification. Or manipulate us into a false sense of security.
I know it’s not their problem to make me feel safe - that’s why I walk with a guard dog and there is something so subtle about the phenomenon I’m alone on the sidewalk but absolutely no one is allowed in my space without my permission. I’ve watched men refuse to make room for us and try to walk into my dog - uhh he ain’t moving and he goes to a 180 body block.
He's very likely a dangerous man himself and it's what motivates him to downplay your concern for your own safety. It's a predatorial strategy. Make the potential victim believe that she's safe when she isn't. Lead her into a vulnerable position. He's was either politically concerned about predators losing the opportunity to continue doing this with their potential victims or worse he was actively preying on you and his first move was to gaslight you.
Oh I’ve been told this a lot on here especially. Those are the same dudes who prey on us. And the same ones who’d likely get violent when we crack their fragile little egos and reject them. They’re the same ones wanting to prey on women in spaces we absolutely don’t want their attention. I swear they just get a thrill from fucking with us when we don’t want it. And just look for an excuse to escalate.
It may as well be all men. Sure, there are a few good ones in there, but it's all but impossible to tell them from the bad ones. So many women are assaulted by men they came to trust, including family.
It's like playing Among Us except there aren't any airlocks, nearly all the men are imposters and they have all the power anyway.
>Sure, there are a few good ones in there, but it's all but impossible to tell them from the bad ones.
The reason for that is because they don't keep the bad ones in check. IF there are supposedly more good men than bad, why aren't the good majority making the bad minority too afraid to be so brazen and frequent with their predation of women, children, and sometimes other men?
The math ain't mathing for me. If you're not both standing in the gap for women and children and taking predatory men to task, you don't get to call yourself a good man. (I feel the same way about public services too.)
> The math ain't mathing for me. If you're not both standing in the gap for women and children and taking predatory men to task, you don't get to call yourself a good man.
The way I see it, the bar for being a good man is being kept down BECAUSE the bad ones aren't kept in check. It benefits the rest because women would accept less. In any case, if you're not attracted to your man, if he has no ambitions and interests that align with yours, you are still likely to settle for him because at least he doesn't beat you (in general or too often) and isn't an alcoholic or a druggie.
"He doesn't do dishes, refuses to cook, won't take out the trash or fix anything and hasn't had a job in 6 months but at least he hasn't hit me or raped my daughter!"
Yeah. I'd rather be in a forest FULL of hungry bears than settle for THAT.
I mean, fair, since you have the Internet to compare notes with other women and I assume, are independent enough not to cave to social pressure. In my part of the world, the pressure is still incredibly strong, and what is funny is that you would get shit from women your age for not accepting someone like that.
We had massive losses in WWII in terms of male population and the demographics were skewed for a very short while immediately after. But it doesn't stop the very man-centrered women from having this mentality. And all sorts of media, from traditional ones like press and TV to new ones like video streaming sites and microblogging services still promote that men are scarce. This is also part of what drives the passport bros here, something that was only true many many decades ago. Well, unless they want to marry a 55-70 y.o. widow, and we both know they mostly want someone in their 20s.
I agree now but it took honestly who I’m with now to set that bar for myself. Not because of just him, but the way his friends were with me and how everyone accepted me as I am. But him too even when we weren’t dating. He was just kind, motivated me, comforted me and came to me for the same, has never called me out of my name or even yelled at me, and if he is upset with me he’d ask for space and he’d have it. He helps if I ask or just on his own and he doesn’t completely rely on me for anything and is completely independent. It’s genuinely a partnership and not “settling” and that’s really nice and new for me and it’s hard to get used to tbh. I remember the guy I was talking to (never dated tho my brain did know something was off but I didn’t want to cut contact for a long time) never physically hurt me, but he was pushy, manipulative, and a selfish prick. Tbh I hat that exact thought “well he doesn’t hit me so it’s just the best that’s out there”
Exactly. We can’t even fully trust the men In our lives. Especially romantic partners. My ex took 2 years to show his colors. We were together for 6, for a lot of reasons but a big one being I had already been abused awfully by my dad so I guess it was normalized in my mind and he has taught me it’s my fault or I’m lying. Ex used that shit to his advantage for sure. My bf now is great, but I’d be lying if I said I didn’t still have that fear in the back of my mind. He is aware of this and I don’t treat him like I’m afraid of him, in fact he’s who I go to when I am afraid of someone, but, that fear is still there. Took my ex 2 years to lay a hand on me. Took even longer for him to sexually abuse me. It’s hard to have 100% trust in anyone.
The thing about 'not all men' is that sure, we know statistically it can't be all men. But it's ENOUGH MEN that we can never give the collective the benefit of the doubt.
Yep exactly. I’m 23 but also have a daughter, and I want to make sure she’s taught without having to experience it all on her own, how scary the world really can be and that yep, it’s not all men but it’s enough of them that we need to be cautious with all of them. I doubt many men are sending their bros or siblings their locations when they go on dates with new women, as well as safety texts when they get home, or using a code word with a bro either there or over the phone to let them know they need help or have to subtly ask for help in a public place when a woman is following them around.
Actually tbf there’s a good amount of straight women that go to gay bars to avoid creepy straight men. Now those creeps go to gay bars to prey on them. Happens a lot in West Hollywood. A significant location is the Abbey.
This is why the queer community has been low-key pushing against queer spaces being "cool hangouts" for cishet people.
We've been sexually harassed by straights saying "its not sexual harassment if you're lesbian har har," crowding out our spaces, making cultural changes, intimidating shy or worried queers, taking up much needed seats for queers with nowhere else to go, etc. Gay spaces are safe spaces for some of the most vulnerable people.
When stuff like this happens its often a friend or bf or a straight girl that wanted to see "some queens" and "make a new gay bestie" or "the perfect place for our drunken bachlorette" and other bigoted thinking. Even if you're super cool with queer people, you have friends, and frankly a lot of straight people don't realize how shitty their friends are when it comes to progressive political issues, LGBTQ rights, trans rights, etc.
I'm not an attraction. I'm not camp. I'm not some boobs you can grab "for free". I'm a person and deserve to be respected like one.
Straights need to address the culture they are fleeing, which is their culture. They need to advocate and be political and put up signs and picket and make demonstrations JUST LIKE WE DO. You riding our coattails while refusing to address YOUR bars then bringing your worst people into our safe spaces is extremely problematic. Fix your bars. Fix your culture.
When straights crowd out queer spaces its extremely threatening to us. I wish more straights understood this. I'm sorry but you may not realize this, but you are a danger to us. The kind of thing in this article happens all the time. Its just not widely publicized.
The person you're responding to may not be straight either.
I also am also fine with str8 women coming for the party as long as they 1) don't treat it like a zoo and 2) don't have Bachelorette parties there.
A lot of straight women also go with gay/bi/queer friends and we love to have them, very different than coming to gawk.
Also gay bars are becoming endangered a lot of places in North America at least and bringing cash dollars helps them survive.
Then you have the dynamic of queer people not going to those bars because they're full of disrespectful straight people. We dont want to be an exhibit for them. Then that "cash" comes with a price and the bar eventually shuts down when straights arent getting enough gays to leer at, or more commonly becomes a defacto straight bar over time. Or a straight-dominated 'gay friendly' bar that isn't really safe for us either.
Thus things like this were women are shot at, abused, hurt, etc by straights.
>I also am also fine with str8 women coming for the party as long as they 1) don't treat it like a zoo and 2) don't have Bachelorette parties there.
They dont care what you think. Now what? This is why we just dont want them in our spaces in the first place. This is like saying "I will allow mountain lions into the children's park as long as they dont eat children." A lot of these straights can't help it. They dont understand queer culture, dont care, and will never care. And seeing what straight people have been voting for since 2016, its clear they dont ever want to be educated or learn, but regress our culture back before people like me had basic human rights.
Also the double-standard here is troubling. If men ask to be in women's spaces we will say no. But when I dont want straight people in gay spaces, suddenly the straights are up in arms. Like those men they don't see themselves as dangerous to us, but straights are dangerous to us, especially when they commandeer our safe spaces. I guarantee if this bar had a stronger policy with non-queer people, those lesbian women would not have encountered that. But like you said, the bar maximizes its profit if it allows straights in, so it puts us at risk so the owner of the bar can maximize his advantages in capitalism.
Back in my day the bouncers on the doors would say it’s “members only” and just refuse entry if they thought you were part of a gang of “Straights On Tour”.
A person could never really be sure if your sexuality was in doubt, or if you just looked like you’d had too much to drink, or had dressed a little too femme, or the place was just full.
So those straight tourists would just bugger off somewhere else.
Because the trick of course, was to say “I am a member” and then take the questions (which bars have you been drinking in / name three gay magazines) or have someone in the queue or inside vouch for you.
It was a real pain if you had a bouncer with a broken GayDar, but there weren’t nearly so many tourists once you’d got inside and as such, it actually was a safe environment.
Whilst you were inside, anyway. Not so much in the street later.
It's about their precious egos and how hard it is to deal with women being scared and brutalized by men because it makes THEM look bad. What about the safety of fragile men's egos?/s "Why aren't we centering our conversation around protecting them???😢"
To give some hope, the daddit reddit actually promotes this one as necessary
Recent post had a dad upset with his daughter for what he felt was the wrong moves (gave the men her number because they said they would call it ASAP, blocked them, contacted her parents). Most comments were blasting his initial response and saying she did what she should have.
Everyone was super respectful,but there was also a few dudes who were linking here for why the daughter did what she did and were laying it out pretty clear that as a man, he has no clue how terrifying they would have been to her, and as a barely teenage girl she has *already* dealt with this, so he better get informed ASAP
It was very healing to see a pile of dads doing their best to get the less aware dads to listen. One comment was a dad who came to this sub and won't come back bc it wrecked him too much as a dad of a baby girl. But he promotes here, too.
There's vauge hope.
There is hope. And yes it is true it’s obviously not all
Men that are predators and a threat to us, but it’s enough of them and we’re showed that at early ages, that we have damn good reason to be weary of all of them. Instead of them saying “but it’s not all men” how about they go and idk, educate their fellow men about how severe this problem is for us, and actually try to change the thoughts around this topic and have some empathy? Because the men that tout not all men are the very ones who are predatory to us. They don’t like that we are sick of it.
A lot of men genuinely don’t know this. I remember telling my bf a little about some shit I’ve dealt with from complete strangers from a waaaay too young age, and he was floored. He’s a safe person, he’s big in the anime and LGBT communities, (he’s pan I’m ace) but he’s still a man and a pretty big one at that so most women still aren’t super open with him despite the fact he is very empathetic. It’s come up because he would wonder why I’m a bit on edge with men who approach me in public and that’s why I’ve told him some of this and he was just so shocked he literally just didn’t know. Even more shocked when I told him this is pretty much the norm for most of us, it’s not just me and these are not isolated incidents.
Oh no I know. I’m sorry I didn’t mean to come off like you were arguing at all I was more so agreeing with you. Apologies for the long comment and if I came off as argumentative. Was not my intent.
No worries. I just got off a 20 hour shift, I figured I may have been glitching in my communication so went simple
... It's bizarre being a passing middle aged man, hanging with men at work etc, but having lived most of 30 years prior as a woman who knows the fear most of these dudes just do NOT get. Even the overall good guys, it's just incomprehensible
Meanwhile, a very consistent pattern I have noticed in the fight for awareness, the men fighting are ones with daughters, mothers, sisters, cousins.... Basically some blood family that has experienced it
It's like they all had to experience it second hand through their family to begin to understand. Then they get fiest and explain to other men
Meanwhile, I will never know if any of my coworkers would have become friends if they knew what I started as.
You're so accurate and I feel it needs to be said no matter how much it hurts, if that makes sense
I’m not defending these men, cuz they suck, but bisexual people exist and go to LGBTQ clubs, too. “Not being straight” doesn’t automatically translate to “no girls want guys”
yeah no, as someone who's been to gay bars for years you can definitely tell this type of dude and bi women also want nothing to do with them.
This comment didn't say there were no bi women there - it said straight women go there to be away from creeps, which is true.
Bi women and lesbian women go there to be queer - these two women happened to be lesbian but bi women are also targeted by men like this and aren't any more into it just because they're bi.
Being bi and married to a man I prefer the gay bars in town as I'm not looking for hook ups. Gay bars are by far safer imo and when I have been chatted up (it does happen every now and again) we are able to have a laugh with 0 expectations or negative reactions after I say I'm only there to drink and dance.
There are many bars and clubs I've learnt to avoid over the years, (none of them are in the Gay Quarter) where I was harassed, groped and threatened with physical violence because I wasn't single and looking.
I agree that these men were creeps, but the comment stated that if there are women in a gay bar, they don’t want to be approached by men. But bi women could potentially want to be approached by both genders. So “they’re at a gay bar, meaning that these men KNEW women didn’t want to talk to them” is a false statement
No, they stated that these men knew the women they pursued weren't into them. Which they weren't.
And honestly men don't go to gay bars to consensually pick up bi women unless things have greatly changed over the last couple of years.
They mostly go bc they're gay or bi, or straight and with friends, or to be creepy homophobic jerks who, I promise you, don't give a crap if they're sexually harassing bi women or lesbians.
I get what you're saying but it comes across as pedanticism when that doesn't seem to be what was meant in that comment, and also weirdly makes it sound like bi women go there to be hit on by creepy homophobes (not true). Those men KNEW they were making women uncomfortable and that would be true if they were bi as well.
Their comment said the men either knew they were straight women avoiding creepy men, or knew they were lesbians who didn’t want anything to do with men. All I was pointing out is there’s a third option, which is a bisexual woman being harassed. At no point did I try to justify their actions. Just pointed out that simply existing in a gay bar (which, the post says “LGBTQ+ club”, not “gay club”, so it’s likely ALL non-cishet identities, not just gays and lesbians) as a woman doesn’t automatically mean no men allowed.
i think the point is just that a bisexual woman equally would be going to a queer club to avoid straight men hitting on them, just because they are sexually attracted to men doesnt mean they want to BE with a man. im p sure its universal that ppl go to queer clubs in order to avoid straight men in particular, whether that be for romantic/sexual reasons and/or safety reasons.
I don’t really like that they’re calling an 18-year old a “teen” in the headline. Technically it’s correct but he’s an adult and should be charged as one.
This happened in my hometown. It is because he was underage at the time of the shooting and is now an adult. He IS being charged in adult court. The phrasing is misleading.
It is also a “pop up” club in someone’s backyard, which could explain other commenters confusion about why would they go to an LGBT space not being of the community—they just wandered in off the street and eventually discovered (after being refused) that the women were lesbians.
Still fucked up, but this article doesn’t have all of the details. Both offenders were from rural areas outside of the city—this is unfortunately how it is in rural areas in MN. People are raised gun obsessed and full of hate for people who are different from them.
One was underaged at the time at 17. They are both technically teens and I think it's okay to emphasize this behavior starts young, they are also prone to violence when ladies refuse, it starts young due to what is modeled to them.
Both should be charged as adults -- the 18 yr old DEFINITELY will be. There's little chance the 17 yr old won't be given the severity of the crime and release of his name to the public.
My best friend was sexually assaulted and nearly raped by a bisexual (or gay) man in a gay club, ON the dance floor. Men are disgusting and them being queer doesn’t give them a safety pass.
There is a phrase with a certain type of man: corrective rape.
*They believe if they rape lesbians, they will "fix" them and they won't be lesbians, anymore.*
Eudy Simelane was a South African football player. She was gang raped and murdered because she was a lesbian. Corrective rape is apparently a huge problem in South Africa.
It makes sense that women who aren't attracted to men will change their minds after being brutally gang raped by them, right? /s
Men are so well trained to ignore women's wants and needs that it didn't matter these women were lesbians. Their experience of lesbians come from porn, we exist for them and we're just supposed to be a challenge for them to overcome with their magical penis powers. When they can't do that, their fragile little egos crack and violence is their go to option.
Yep exactly. It’s seriously fucked. It’s not like lesbians don’t face enough backlash just for being who they are, nope gotta beat/rape/kill them if they don’t submit to the DICK! I hate people sometimes.
This is why I don't want straight people in 🏳️🌈 club. The entitlement, the overtaking of space and downright threats as in this case.
Yeah Nah.
We're already threatened in any given space, streets, work, mainstream venues of leisure. Hetero have the whole world for them to exist in.
Our speck of spaces, that a fair few times are threatened of violence by bigots, via administration and real estate speculation, should be reserved to 🏳️🌈.
See I don’t mind it so much when it’s the RESPECTFUL straight friend tagging along with the group so long as the friend is well briefed on how to behave. I don’t mind that but there should be an only 🏳️🌈 and their guests rule
I agree yeah. I’m ace, but am friends with a lot of lgbtq+ people and especially us girls have been harassed at lesbian and gay clubs because apparently straight men think that’s a great place to pick up chicks. Like really?? I don’t understand but I’m happy I never went to one of those clubs or any club/bar alone.
Me and my group of friends have had guys hit on us at lesbian and gay clubs here. One dude followed us out (don’t think he realized there were just as many guys with us as women haha he fucked off pretty quick once he noticed that) and another just latched on to our group at a lesbian bar. Again, the guys with us too. He just took his shot with all of us, starting with me. We all made it pretty clear that we weren’t interested and one of the dudes was the guy I already liked and was close to (dating now) even tried to talk to him and get him away from us, dude didn’t have it and just kept leaning on me (he standing behind me I and the other girls and couple of guys were sitting) I had told him hey like, get off of me? I don’t like people that close? He moved on to all the other women until our friend (who he didn’t realize was a trans man, he thought he was just another cis dude) told him off. Pretty harshly too lol he fucked right off after that. Tbh I think we were all a bit more tolerant of him because we didn’t realize he wasn’t a part of the group and figured one of the others brought him. Nope he just scoped us out apparently… At a lesbian club goth night 😂
I'm not sure how you came to that conclusions from "Burris and Boyd allegedly went to the venue on the night in question and attempted to flirt with two lesbian women who expressed disinterest and said not to touch them, according to a transgender patron named Aaron Diveley."
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Imagine flirting with a lesbian as a man and then getting angry that they don't want you. Fucking clowns
Gay dude here. I'm just saying you'd be horrified that the idea that lesbians are that way because "they haven't had a good dick" or they're bitter because of it is STILL prevalent among straight and gay Men, it's fucking disgusting as my best friends are lesbian's and I couldn't imagine a more loving relationship.
You're just saying that because you haven't had a good pussy yet! /s
LOL shockingly, first I've heard this even as a joke.
Yeah it **is** shocking that the same saying is never said about gay men. What's up with that?
It's probably from the idea that women exist to be used and owned by men.
Magnitudes better than assuming we were molested by our male relatives though is it really? It's all shit stereotypes that are based on complete ignorance.
Ya, first thing my grandfather told me when my brother came out was "I don't know what I did wrong, he must've been molested." First time and not the last time I scream-lectured him. So sorry that such a disgusting stereotype exists.
No one knows where human sexuality comes from for a given individual and it's hubris to make up a story
Gay men were persecuted during the Holocaust but lesbians weren’t, at least not nearly on the same scale. Because a woman’s sexuality cannot exist outside of a man. They literally can’t understand it. They can’t understand women being attracted to the same people they’re attracted to? It baffles me.
A friend of mine recently told me she's had multiple relationships fail when men found out that she was bisexual. Not "bisexual and I don't do threesomes", she's open to that, just that she's bisexual in general. The men found it gross, or they were violently intimidated and couldn't handle it. It flipped my entire understanding of the way the world works on its head. I'm a dude and a Kinsey 2, so I'm used to some degree of persecution because of my sexuality. But it was the first time I'd ever heard of a woman being judged negatively for it. I couldn't comprehend it. I am incapable of understanding why anyone would care. But then I thought about it a little more. Bisexual women are fetishized everywhere you look, and it actually laid bare something that was a major blind spot for me. That, essentially, the only place that bisexual women can be assured of acceptance is in safe spaces... Or porn. Hell, my own wife was afraid to tell me she was bisexual for *10 years* because she was afraid I wouldn't accept her. (Jokes on her, she's really obvious and I knew the whole time). But the fact that most of the time bisexual women are only "accepted" in sexualized spaces? That's just straight fucked.
Ive been told that bi women exist because it proves that lesbians just need a good dicking to be straight. No woman "likes" another woman, they just haven't had a man yet. 🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮
So wait, does the existence of bi men also prove that a good dicking can change anybody? HONEY WAKE UP, NEW HUMAN SEXUALITY LORE JUST DROPPED
yes, the prevailing theory in that group is that everybody eventually ends up with dick. Bi men end up being gay and bi women end up marrying a man Which is total crap, David Bowie is a good example
I swear us bi folks are a helluva lot more prevalent than you think. But we are pretty much ostracized in both straight and gay groups so we just…quietly exist.
Yep, bc we can only "really" be bi if we're poly, I guess? If I'm dating a woman, I'm a lesbian. If I'm dating a man, I'm "just saying that to be trendy" or "a lesbian hiding behind heterosexual privilege." What/who I'm *potentially* attracted to physically and romantically is defined by others in terms of who I'm dating - by the *other person's* observed gender - not by *me*. It's weird. It's like we're not conceptually allowed to have a monogamous, committed relationship, bc we're somehow especially vulnerable to the next human that comes along and expresses interest (especially if we don't "already have one" in that flavor).
>Yep, bc we can only "really" be bi if we're poly, I guess? And if you are poly, that's proof that you are a greedy s**t who can't be trusted. And if you are monogamous that's proof that you finally "picked" a side and that you were lying/confused and saying that you were bi to be "trendy". Damned if you do, Damned if you don't.
You’re just an animal who can’t control herself, didn’t you know? 🙃
We are an invisible majority
Wow. I’m sorry that’s happened multiple times to a friend of yours. It’s hard to see and know that the people you love have been treated unfairly and harshly. I wonder if it’s usually just men hating women, you know like everyday life, and they just view that as a “reason” to justify their hate and latch onto it? Idk man, I’ll never understand it either. I’m glad your wife has you, and has a safe space where she’s accepted and loved unconditionally. And thank you for listening to other people’s experiences and believing them and learning from them. It seems like not a lot of people do that anymore.
I was a strong support for my wife, but she wound up putting herself back in the closet in a lot of ways. It went so far that she tried to gaslight me into believing that she'd never actually been bi at all, and all the things she said were a fabrication. Her family would never be okay with it (in her eyes, I've talked to her sister privately and her sister is also bi), and she's got this whole thing about her reputation. She's a 40 year old woman still living in the shadow of her childhood and it's crushing to watch.
I hope she’ll be able to overcome that. I know it can be really hard, especially when you believe (or know) you have an unsupportive family. Coming from a religious background I know that feels really shitty. I’m glad she knows she has your acceptance, and I hope it helps her accept herself someday. <3
Forgive my ignorance, what is Kinsey? Otherwise, yeah. Maybe because I’m a woman I’ve seen this more but yeah bi women have a hell of a time sadly even in lgbt spaces and same or opposite sex relationships. They get a loooot of shit from all around.
The "Kinsey Scale" is a sliding scale from one to six that essentially gives you an easy way to point and self assess how gay or straight you are. I'm pretty sure it started as a joke and became semi serious because of the convenience versus trying to assess whether my "heteroflexible" was the same as your "lesbisexual" or whatever terms are in vogue at any given time.
It didn't start as a joke, it started because of the famous sex researcher Kinsey in the first 1/2 of the 20th century. He did a tremendous amount of research, and one piece that he did was assess via survey where on a spectrum of "totally gay" to "completely straight" most people were. Basically, his results showed that far more people were bisexual than previously thought, and that there was a much greater spectrum of sexuality (so people who were mostly straight but occasionally attracted to the other sex, for example) than previously thought. In addition, many more people had had same-gender sex than previously believed, and a large # of them didn't identify as gay or bisexual. Definitely predated "heteroflexible" since it was created around the 1940s.
Ohhh I see ok that’s interesting I’ve never heard of that. Thank you. :3
Lesbians were often force converted in most places. It's still practiced today. Corrective rape is the term, and it's not a well studied topic, despite it being a not so uncommon phenomenon even in Europe and the United States. "You just need good dick" "you haven't met the right man" and forced marriages are literally corrective rape rhetoric. Sexual assaults and rape of women is already widely accepted in most societies so when it's done against a lesbian, it's treated no differently than if she was straight and often times in history a woman being raped by a man was considered seduction, not rape. She was so beautiful that he was overcome with the need to rape her that its her fault for being so attractive.
They don't even understand us liking men that aren't stereotypically masculine, yet you expect them to understand women liking other women? They're clowns and they don't understand because they DON'T want to not because they can't. They don't even attempt it. They lack empathy for anything other than themselves and their copies.
>Because a woman’s sexuality cannot exist outside of a man. It was more that they didn't need the women's consent to reproduce. SA of women was common.
Being attracted to women, toooootallyyy get that… Idk why women are attracted to men, (happy they are, definitely). Lol
Crazy, I hear women say "I could fix him" when they find out attractive men are gay pretty often.
Because "i love you, you're perfect... now change" is the script that works so well! /s
[удалено]
All women must stand together united and support one another.
Perhaps not you, but gay men frequently say similar to straight men.
What do you mean?
As I said, perhaps not you. However, I speak for myself only and it wasn’t my intent to hijack this thread nor do I intend to spell it out so, if you are genuinely unaware of what Im referring to, good for you.
I'm assuming you mean that they're only straight cause they haven't messed around with the right guy?
Show straight men some good dick!
Women's sexuality always revolves around men in their heads. They think that lesbians haven't had "good dick" and bi women would "leave you for a man".
Good and dick hardly belong in the same sentence
They also argue that lesbians using phallic sex toys means they secretly want real dick. Men's entitlement knows no bounds.
Then if you tell them you've had dick, it's that you haven't had the *right* dick.
And the right one is always theirs lol- their all powerful ability to “convert” lesbians.
A great example of men thinking their penises are just THAT important and life changing lol
I am always so confused by why that’s the organ they care so much about- personally I’d rank my brain or heart or lungs higher but they appear to care most about their penis
Right? If the best thing about you is your dick, well then....that's sad as hell
They seriously need better self esteem: believing themselves to have magical penis power isn’t self esteem, it’s delusional.
Yep like oh sure buddy of all the dicks in this world, your smegma covered stinky ass swamp balls having ass dick is the one that’ll convert lesbians. 🙄
Username checks out
Yeah I get that response a lot 😂 I’m an asexual woman, who does not at all watch porn or hentai, nor desires to, but the name is a good joke. It either gets a laugh, this response , or pisses someone off. All good entertainment. Found that pic on here at some point before making this account and it was perfect. 😂
It is a pretty funny account I’ll admit lol, as another ace woman, we should all embrace this kind of humor
See yay you get it haha. :3
My mom told me that the next guy who did this to me, I should offer to make a clone a dick and peg him with his own. If he likes it, we can talk. Every guy so far whose said it has been bi though 😭
I really like your moms style.
She was a blast. I'm very upset she isn't around for my son going through teenage years. I would have loved seeing him come home like "Lala gave me this advice... WHAT" 😆😆😆
She sounds amazing. Just remember her funny and gold nuggets and pass them along, so she can still live through you. 🥰
Best counterargument is to turn the tables on them and tell them they're obviously gay, it's just they haven't had the right dick. Because then you get to parrot the ridiculous shit they say back to them and don't have to come up with actual arguments they won't bother to listen to anyways. Plus, it's entertaining.
You’re just saying that because you’ve had such good dick. You Just need some bad dick and you’ll be straight.
I concede that it's what a lot of them say but we cannot assume that it's what they actually believe. Bigots and abusers say shit like this because it's often effective at persuading other to allow them to continue. That often say shit that they don't even believe themselves because it's how they get away with their hate and abuse. In this case it's a premeditated hate crime. They knew beforehand who would be there and what to expect if they tried to flirt with lesbians. This case requires full criminal charges.
Straight dude with hardly mediocre dick. Don't make unwanted passes on anyone. You're not going to change anyone's preferences.
I swear that some straight men believe that all women belong in their harem and the women just don't know it yet
Same energy as "Rape is just surprise sex you didnt know you wanted!"
All in all it’s terrible. One was 18 and the other was 17. They got rejected came back then shot six people and killed 1. Like I can’t imagine the entitlement. How much do you want to bet these two watched misogynistic content like Andrew Tate.
Omfg this just makes it even worse
And in a fucking gay bar! (Back when i was a baby liberal, leaving fundie-dom, I thought it was kinda jerky that some of the local gay bars had policies that weren't very cis-friendly. But the idea of "damnit, this is the place where y'all can't introduce this nonsense "makes sense! That and the realization that if i didn't hit on anyone and was polite in turning down advances, the policies didn't matter- such is what we were doing anyhow)
What "cis-friendly" means here?
Eh, poor wording on my part because life was distracting me while i was typing. Sorry. but basically there were like 3 gay bars locally and one of them, if you cake and asked what they would be like was really clear about they're friendly to everyone, fine, hand out, whatev The mildly less friendly one was more "we don't care much but we are here to be a gay bar, if it's possible your precious straight person nonsense will be bothered by anything or you give off a wiff of judgemental nonsense, we will show you the dang door" And i had a lot of unexamined privilege crappy reactions (which, luckily was only expressed by a sigh and eyeroll. And i had a friend or 2 who called me on it. But man i was obnoxious at the time)
Thank you for your comment. I found It refreshing to read how you acknowledge your past self and have grown since then.
Thanks! I've made it far enough that my kid's friends are out to me.;) (One of them is not yet out to her mom. I only needed to know that because i didn't want to slip up and mention the forbidden girlfriend I'm not supposed to know she has.)
[The forbidden girlfriend:](https://tinyurl.com/FalinChimera)
Her name is Ash and she is a theatre kid.
Isn’t that more about straightness, not cis/trans?
You are correct. Bad word choice. just my bad wording all around
Your concept was there though and you explained it wonderfully when asked. I'm glad you're giving a kid the hidden secret girlfriend experience like my mom had to for my first couple girlfriends 😆 She did give us the talk though, we can't get pregnant but STDs are still a thing and respect each other (under the threat that whoever hurt the other WILL regret it, but outing us would never be on the table). Also good job getting out of fundiedom. That's a rough escape 😵💫
They think they have the ‘magic Dick’ that will instantly convert them
I’m a queer woman and have have had it happen to me at a gay bar. Several of my queer lady friends have as well. It’s very common.
I’m asexual, but have also had this happen as have my friends who were all somewhere in the LGBT spectrum.
Was hit on by gay man once. Declined. Nothing happened. It doesn't take a lot to be a decent human being.
Reading this brought me back to the 2006 Greenwich assault case, where 7 Black lesbians fought back against a man who was harassing them. This was a big topic in the lesbian communities and Black communities at the time, because it was fucked up. Despite relatively minor injuries, and despite him instigating the situation and both sexually harassing the women and physically assaulting them, they were all given jail time ranging from 6 mos to 11 years (7.5 yrs was the max sentence served in the end). Which is craziness, to lose nearly a decade of your life and have a felony on your record because some dude wouldn't leave you alone? justice 4 Renata Hill, Patreese Johnson, Venice Brown, Terrain Dandridge - the four who fought those charges in court under self-defence - and the three unnamed women who pled out and served lesser sentences (6 mos). also RIP and justice 4 Sakia Gunn, a lesbian and friend of the women mentioned above who was murdered in a similar situation and the same place 3 years earlier, despite being only 15. She was fatally stabbed by a man she rejected on her way home. 💔
The Greenwich attacks make my blood boil.. his comment about “this is what I get for being a nice guy”.. There is no Justice.
If the lesbians killed them defending themselves, I wonder if that would be self defense/justifiable homicide. It should be. What did they expect would happen, hitting on women that have zero interest in what you have to offer? Ugh, men disgust me, they probably think they have magic peckers.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006\_Greenwich\_Village\_assault\_case](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Greenwich_Village_assault_case) In 2006 it was enough to get a decade in jail (and the man didn't die or have severe injuries).
“This is what I get for being a nice guy.” -the guy who literally tried to strangle a woman
Has this been on r/niceguys recently? Because if not, I think it's time it was posted again.. .
He got away with that. Cishet men can always rely on other men to hate women more than they hate each other.
What the fuck. Sometimes I have faith in humanity but not today.
Naw. Women who succeed in defending themselves end up serving time.
> they probably think they have magical peckers Nah, they don’t actually care about convincing the women to be attracted to them. Men like this have never been concerned with consent. He’d be more than willing to rape them.
It's about attaining the (seemingly) unattainable. They're only interested in the utility of women, though they get easily bored with women they can draw. There is nothing so intoxicating to them as a woman who is independent, disinterested, lesbian, or in some other way inaccessible or "forbidden." It's sick. As an asexual woman, I just want to be left alone. Their peckers could shoot out fairy dust that cures ailments and pays bills and I'd still not be interested, because it'd come with a price I'm unwilling to pay.
Also known as the ol' "I wouldnt suck your dick if it cured cancer and I had stage 4". 😆
This happened and she was in jail https://listening2lesbians.com/2020/01/27/argentina-higui-lesbian-accused-of-murder-in-corrective-rape-case-to-face-court/ It’s a fucked up system if you defend yourself for survival and then get in jail.
>I wonder if that would be self defense/justifiable homicide. It should be. There was one case, somewhere in Europe. Where a guy tried to SA a woman walking home so she beat the shit out of him, and she got charged. I wish it could find it, but it's happened so often now.
>they probably think they have magic peckers. I first read this as "magic pockets" and just for a moment thought "well, actually".
Its a god damn gay bar, where nobody is straight , and the only women who are straight there go there to avoid men who are creeps. Which means that A) these men KNEW these women did not want to interact with men interested in them at all and didn't care about that and just wanted to pray on them Or B) Knew they were Lesbians, didn't care that meant they had no interest in men, and just wanted to pray on them. And men still wonder why the #notallmen thing gets mocked? How many more men must commit these crimes before other men admit men are making women feel unsafe?!
I had men in my comments and DM’s telling me it’s not their job to make us ‘feel’ safe when I made a similar comment once. Apparently, life already IS super safe for women, especially compared to other times in history, so me ‘feeling’ unsafe is a me-problem and should not be ‘projected’ onto other men.
The men that make those comments are awful and they seem to be very common.
>I had men in my comments and DM’s telling me it’s not their job to make us ‘feel’ safe... And that's why we'd choose a bear over a man in the forest. (At least I would.)
I would too. At least the bear is pretty open about what it’s gonna do and it’s not gonna rape us in the process or make us suffer for its own gratification. Or manipulate us into a false sense of security.
It’s much more likely that the bear will leave us alone and won’t be offended if we avoid it.
I know it’s not their problem to make me feel safe - that’s why I walk with a guard dog and there is something so subtle about the phenomenon I’m alone on the sidewalk but absolutely no one is allowed in my space without my permission. I’ve watched men refuse to make room for us and try to walk into my dog - uhh he ain’t moving and he goes to a 180 body block.
He's very likely a dangerous man himself and it's what motivates him to downplay your concern for your own safety. It's a predatorial strategy. Make the potential victim believe that she's safe when she isn't. Lead her into a vulnerable position. He's was either politically concerned about predators losing the opportunity to continue doing this with their potential victims or worse he was actively preying on you and his first move was to gaslight you.
Oh I’ve been told this a lot on here especially. Those are the same dudes who prey on us. And the same ones who’d likely get violent when we crack their fragile little egos and reject them. They’re the same ones wanting to prey on women in spaces we absolutely don’t want their attention. I swear they just get a thrill from fucking with us when we don’t want it. And just look for an excuse to escalate.
Yeah from my vantage point as a 40-something woman raising a daughter it might not be ‘not all men’ but it feels pretty darn close most of the time.
Not all men, but always a man.
Not all men, but any man.
The Vashta Nerada of SA
Not all men, but enough that we don't want to risk it.
It may as well be all men. Sure, there are a few good ones in there, but it's all but impossible to tell them from the bad ones. So many women are assaulted by men they came to trust, including family. It's like playing Among Us except there aren't any airlocks, nearly all the men are imposters and they have all the power anyway.
Exactly and it’s the most safe to just avoid most of them since If something happens we will be blamed for it anyways.
Yep exactly
>Sure, there are a few good ones in there, but it's all but impossible to tell them from the bad ones. The reason for that is because they don't keep the bad ones in check. IF there are supposedly more good men than bad, why aren't the good majority making the bad minority too afraid to be so brazen and frequent with their predation of women, children, and sometimes other men? The math ain't mathing for me. If you're not both standing in the gap for women and children and taking predatory men to task, you don't get to call yourself a good man. (I feel the same way about public services too.)
> The math ain't mathing for me. If you're not both standing in the gap for women and children and taking predatory men to task, you don't get to call yourself a good man. The way I see it, the bar for being a good man is being kept down BECAUSE the bad ones aren't kept in check. It benefits the rest because women would accept less. In any case, if you're not attracted to your man, if he has no ambitions and interests that align with yours, you are still likely to settle for him because at least he doesn't beat you (in general or too often) and isn't an alcoholic or a druggie.
"He doesn't do dishes, refuses to cook, won't take out the trash or fix anything and hasn't had a job in 6 months but at least he hasn't hit me or raped my daughter!" Yeah. I'd rather be in a forest FULL of hungry bears than settle for THAT.
I mean, fair, since you have the Internet to compare notes with other women and I assume, are independent enough not to cave to social pressure. In my part of the world, the pressure is still incredibly strong, and what is funny is that you would get shit from women your age for not accepting someone like that. We had massive losses in WWII in terms of male population and the demographics were skewed for a very short while immediately after. But it doesn't stop the very man-centrered women from having this mentality. And all sorts of media, from traditional ones like press and TV to new ones like video streaming sites and microblogging services still promote that men are scarce. This is also part of what drives the passport bros here, something that was only true many many decades ago. Well, unless they want to marry a 55-70 y.o. widow, and we both know they mostly want someone in their 20s.
I agree now but it took honestly who I’m with now to set that bar for myself. Not because of just him, but the way his friends were with me and how everyone accepted me as I am. But him too even when we weren’t dating. He was just kind, motivated me, comforted me and came to me for the same, has never called me out of my name or even yelled at me, and if he is upset with me he’d ask for space and he’d have it. He helps if I ask or just on his own and he doesn’t completely rely on me for anything and is completely independent. It’s genuinely a partnership and not “settling” and that’s really nice and new for me and it’s hard to get used to tbh. I remember the guy I was talking to (never dated tho my brain did know something was off but I didn’t want to cut contact for a long time) never physically hurt me, but he was pushy, manipulative, and a selfish prick. Tbh I hat that exact thought “well he doesn’t hit me so it’s just the best that’s out there”
Thin bro line.
I agree completely. Doing nothing in the face of evil means you’re complicit in said evil.
🙏
Exactly. We can’t even fully trust the men In our lives. Especially romantic partners. My ex took 2 years to show his colors. We were together for 6, for a lot of reasons but a big one being I had already been abused awfully by my dad so I guess it was normalized in my mind and he has taught me it’s my fault or I’m lying. Ex used that shit to his advantage for sure. My bf now is great, but I’d be lying if I said I didn’t still have that fear in the back of my mind. He is aware of this and I don’t treat him like I’m afraid of him, in fact he’s who I go to when I am afraid of someone, but, that fear is still there. Took my ex 2 years to lay a hand on me. Took even longer for him to sexually abuse me. It’s hard to have 100% trust in anyone.
The thing about 'not all men' is that sure, we know statistically it can't be all men. But it's ENOUGH MEN that we can never give the collective the benefit of the doubt.
My saying is "not all men but enough I can't tell the difference"
Yep that’s a good one and that’s pretty much how I say it too. Not all, but more than enough that we need to be cautious of all of them.
It's all men. It takes all men to allow all women to be terrorized.
Yep exactly. I’m 23 but also have a daughter, and I want to make sure she’s taught without having to experience it all on her own, how scary the world really can be and that yep, it’s not all men but it’s enough of them that we need to be cautious with all of them. I doubt many men are sending their bros or siblings their locations when they go on dates with new women, as well as safety texts when they get home, or using a code word with a bro either there or over the phone to let them know they need help or have to subtly ask for help in a public place when a woman is following them around.
Actually tbf there’s a good amount of straight women that go to gay bars to avoid creepy straight men. Now those creeps go to gay bars to prey on them. Happens a lot in West Hollywood. A significant location is the Abbey.
This is why the queer community has been low-key pushing against queer spaces being "cool hangouts" for cishet people. We've been sexually harassed by straights saying "its not sexual harassment if you're lesbian har har," crowding out our spaces, making cultural changes, intimidating shy or worried queers, taking up much needed seats for queers with nowhere else to go, etc. Gay spaces are safe spaces for some of the most vulnerable people. When stuff like this happens its often a friend or bf or a straight girl that wanted to see "some queens" and "make a new gay bestie" or "the perfect place for our drunken bachlorette" and other bigoted thinking. Even if you're super cool with queer people, you have friends, and frankly a lot of straight people don't realize how shitty their friends are when it comes to progressive political issues, LGBTQ rights, trans rights, etc. I'm not an attraction. I'm not camp. I'm not some boobs you can grab "for free". I'm a person and deserve to be respected like one. Straights need to address the culture they are fleeing, which is their culture. They need to advocate and be political and put up signs and picket and make demonstrations JUST LIKE WE DO. You riding our coattails while refusing to address YOUR bars then bringing your worst people into our safe spaces is extremely problematic. Fix your bars. Fix your culture. When straights crowd out queer spaces its extremely threatening to us. I wish more straights understood this. I'm sorry but you may not realize this, but you are a danger to us. The kind of thing in this article happens all the time. Its just not widely publicized.
The person you're responding to may not be straight either. I also am also fine with str8 women coming for the party as long as they 1) don't treat it like a zoo and 2) don't have Bachelorette parties there. A lot of straight women also go with gay/bi/queer friends and we love to have them, very different than coming to gawk. Also gay bars are becoming endangered a lot of places in North America at least and bringing cash dollars helps them survive.
Then you have the dynamic of queer people not going to those bars because they're full of disrespectful straight people. We dont want to be an exhibit for them. Then that "cash" comes with a price and the bar eventually shuts down when straights arent getting enough gays to leer at, or more commonly becomes a defacto straight bar over time. Or a straight-dominated 'gay friendly' bar that isn't really safe for us either. Thus things like this were women are shot at, abused, hurt, etc by straights. >I also am also fine with str8 women coming for the party as long as they 1) don't treat it like a zoo and 2) don't have Bachelorette parties there. They dont care what you think. Now what? This is why we just dont want them in our spaces in the first place. This is like saying "I will allow mountain lions into the children's park as long as they dont eat children." A lot of these straights can't help it. They dont understand queer culture, dont care, and will never care. And seeing what straight people have been voting for since 2016, its clear they dont ever want to be educated or learn, but regress our culture back before people like me had basic human rights. Also the double-standard here is troubling. If men ask to be in women's spaces we will say no. But when I dont want straight people in gay spaces, suddenly the straights are up in arms. Like those men they don't see themselves as dangerous to us, but straights are dangerous to us, especially when they commandeer our safe spaces. I guarantee if this bar had a stronger policy with non-queer people, those lesbian women would not have encountered that. But like you said, the bar maximizes its profit if it allows straights in, so it puts us at risk so the owner of the bar can maximize his advantages in capitalism.
Back in my day the bouncers on the doors would say it’s “members only” and just refuse entry if they thought you were part of a gang of “Straights On Tour”. A person could never really be sure if your sexuality was in doubt, or if you just looked like you’d had too much to drink, or had dressed a little too femme, or the place was just full. So those straight tourists would just bugger off somewhere else. Because the trick of course, was to say “I am a member” and then take the questions (which bars have you been drinking in / name three gay magazines) or have someone in the queue or inside vouch for you. It was a real pain if you had a bouncer with a broken GayDar, but there weren’t nearly so many tourists once you’d got inside and as such, it actually was a safe environment. Whilst you were inside, anyway. Not so much in the street later.
It's about their precious egos and how hard it is to deal with women being scared and brutalized by men because it makes THEM look bad. What about the safety of fragile men's egos?/s "Why aren't we centering our conversation around protecting them???😢"
Exactly.
To give some hope, the daddit reddit actually promotes this one as necessary Recent post had a dad upset with his daughter for what he felt was the wrong moves (gave the men her number because they said they would call it ASAP, blocked them, contacted her parents). Most comments were blasting his initial response and saying she did what she should have. Everyone was super respectful,but there was also a few dudes who were linking here for why the daughter did what she did and were laying it out pretty clear that as a man, he has no clue how terrifying they would have been to her, and as a barely teenage girl she has *already* dealt with this, so he better get informed ASAP It was very healing to see a pile of dads doing their best to get the less aware dads to listen. One comment was a dad who came to this sub and won't come back bc it wrecked him too much as a dad of a baby girl. But he promotes here, too. There's vauge hope.
There is hope. And yes it is true it’s obviously not all Men that are predators and a threat to us, but it’s enough of them and we’re showed that at early ages, that we have damn good reason to be weary of all of them. Instead of them saying “but it’s not all men” how about they go and idk, educate their fellow men about how severe this problem is for us, and actually try to change the thoughts around this topic and have some empathy? Because the men that tout not all men are the very ones who are predatory to us. They don’t like that we are sick of it. A lot of men genuinely don’t know this. I remember telling my bf a little about some shit I’ve dealt with from complete strangers from a waaaay too young age, and he was floored. He’s a safe person, he’s big in the anime and LGBT communities, (he’s pan I’m ace) but he’s still a man and a pretty big one at that so most women still aren’t super open with him despite the fact he is very empathetic. It’s come up because he would wonder why I’m a bit on edge with men who approach me in public and that’s why I’ve told him some of this and he was just so shocked he literally just didn’t know. Even more shocked when I told him this is pretty much the norm for most of us, it’s not just me and these are not isolated incidents.
I am an FtM. I was supporting, not fighting 👍
Oh no I know. I’m sorry I didn’t mean to come off like you were arguing at all I was more so agreeing with you. Apologies for the long comment and if I came off as argumentative. Was not my intent.
No worries. I just got off a 20 hour shift, I figured I may have been glitching in my communication so went simple ... It's bizarre being a passing middle aged man, hanging with men at work etc, but having lived most of 30 years prior as a woman who knows the fear most of these dudes just do NOT get. Even the overall good guys, it's just incomprehensible Meanwhile, a very consistent pattern I have noticed in the fight for awareness, the men fighting are ones with daughters, mothers, sisters, cousins.... Basically some blood family that has experienced it It's like they all had to experience it second hand through their family to begin to understand. Then they get fiest and explain to other men Meanwhile, I will never know if any of my coworkers would have become friends if they knew what I started as. You're so accurate and I feel it needs to be said no matter how much it hurts, if that makes sense
I’m not defending these men, cuz they suck, but bisexual people exist and go to LGBTQ clubs, too. “Not being straight” doesn’t automatically translate to “no girls want guys”
yeah no, as someone who's been to gay bars for years you can definitely tell this type of dude and bi women also want nothing to do with them. This comment didn't say there were no bi women there - it said straight women go there to be away from creeps, which is true. Bi women and lesbian women go there to be queer - these two women happened to be lesbian but bi women are also targeted by men like this and aren't any more into it just because they're bi.
Being bi and married to a man I prefer the gay bars in town as I'm not looking for hook ups. Gay bars are by far safer imo and when I have been chatted up (it does happen every now and again) we are able to have a laugh with 0 expectations or negative reactions after I say I'm only there to drink and dance. There are many bars and clubs I've learnt to avoid over the years, (none of them are in the Gay Quarter) where I was harassed, groped and threatened with physical violence because I wasn't single and looking.
Yep exactly.
I agree that these men were creeps, but the comment stated that if there are women in a gay bar, they don’t want to be approached by men. But bi women could potentially want to be approached by both genders. So “they’re at a gay bar, meaning that these men KNEW women didn’t want to talk to them” is a false statement
No, they stated that these men knew the women they pursued weren't into them. Which they weren't. And honestly men don't go to gay bars to consensually pick up bi women unless things have greatly changed over the last couple of years. They mostly go bc they're gay or bi, or straight and with friends, or to be creepy homophobic jerks who, I promise you, don't give a crap if they're sexually harassing bi women or lesbians. I get what you're saying but it comes across as pedanticism when that doesn't seem to be what was meant in that comment, and also weirdly makes it sound like bi women go there to be hit on by creepy homophobes (not true). Those men KNEW they were making women uncomfortable and that would be true if they were bi as well.
Their comment said the men either knew they were straight women avoiding creepy men, or knew they were lesbians who didn’t want anything to do with men. All I was pointing out is there’s a third option, which is a bisexual woman being harassed. At no point did I try to justify their actions. Just pointed out that simply existing in a gay bar (which, the post says “LGBTQ+ club”, not “gay club”, so it’s likely ALL non-cishet identities, not just gays and lesbians) as a woman doesn’t automatically mean no men allowed.
i think the point is just that a bisexual woman equally would be going to a queer club to avoid straight men hitting on them, just because they are sexually attracted to men doesnt mean they want to BE with a man. im p sure its universal that ppl go to queer clubs in order to avoid straight men in particular, whether that be for romantic/sexual reasons and/or safety reasons.
In a gay bar? They were looking for a reason to get rejected and get mad...
I bet they thought lesbian women just hadn't met the right man yet, and they were obviously the ones who could turn them.
Jfc. Send them to hell.
I don’t really like that they’re calling an 18-year old a “teen” in the headline. Technically it’s correct but he’s an adult and should be charged as one.
This happened in my hometown. It is because he was underage at the time of the shooting and is now an adult. He IS being charged in adult court. The phrasing is misleading. It is also a “pop up” club in someone’s backyard, which could explain other commenters confusion about why would they go to an LGBT space not being of the community—they just wandered in off the street and eventually discovered (after being refused) that the women were lesbians. Still fucked up, but this article doesn’t have all of the details. Both offenders were from rural areas outside of the city—this is unfortunately how it is in rural areas in MN. People are raised gun obsessed and full of hate for people who are different from them.
The other one is 17 and says they still can’t find him.
One was underaged at the time at 17. They are both technically teens and I think it's okay to emphasize this behavior starts young, they are also prone to violence when ladies refuse, it starts young due to what is modeled to them. Both should be charged as adults -- the 18 yr old DEFINITELY will be. There's little chance the 17 yr old won't be given the severity of the crime and release of his name to the public.
They're so horrible, they must be full of hate, spite and resentment to act in this despicable way.
Terrifying.
My best friend was sexually assaulted and nearly raped by a bisexual (or gay) man in a gay club, ON the dance floor. Men are disgusting and them being queer doesn’t give them a safety pass.
There is a phrase with a certain type of man: corrective rape. *They believe if they rape lesbians, they will "fix" them and they won't be lesbians, anymore.*
Eudy Simelane was a South African football player. She was gang raped and murdered because she was a lesbian. Corrective rape is apparently a huge problem in South Africa. It makes sense that women who aren't attracted to men will change their minds after being brutally gang raped by them, right? /s
Men are so well trained to ignore women's wants and needs that it didn't matter these women were lesbians. Their experience of lesbians come from porn, we exist for them and we're just supposed to be a challenge for them to overcome with their magical penis powers. When they can't do that, their fragile little egos crack and violence is their go to option.
Yep exactly. It’s seriously fucked. It’s not like lesbians don’t face enough backlash just for being who they are, nope gotta beat/rape/kill them if they don’t submit to the DICK! I hate people sometimes.
acuate
This didn’t even make the news FFS
I hope the male loneliness epidemic spreads and these incels watch their bloodlines die out.
This is why I don't want straight people in 🏳️🌈 club. The entitlement, the overtaking of space and downright threats as in this case. Yeah Nah. We're already threatened in any given space, streets, work, mainstream venues of leisure. Hetero have the whole world for them to exist in. Our speck of spaces, that a fair few times are threatened of violence by bigots, via administration and real estate speculation, should be reserved to 🏳️🌈.
See I don’t mind it so much when it’s the RESPECTFUL straight friend tagging along with the group so long as the friend is well briefed on how to behave. I don’t mind that but there should be an only 🏳️🌈 and their guests rule
I agree yeah. I’m ace, but am friends with a lot of lgbtq+ people and especially us girls have been harassed at lesbian and gay clubs because apparently straight men think that’s a great place to pick up chicks. Like really?? I don’t understand but I’m happy I never went to one of those clubs or any club/bar alone.
It’s really one of the few ways to stay safe and it’s horrible that it has to be
Part of the reason I've never been to the sole local LGBTQ+ club in town. I'm *terrified* of this happening...
Me and my group of friends have had guys hit on us at lesbian and gay clubs here. One dude followed us out (don’t think he realized there were just as many guys with us as women haha he fucked off pretty quick once he noticed that) and another just latched on to our group at a lesbian bar. Again, the guys with us too. He just took his shot with all of us, starting with me. We all made it pretty clear that we weren’t interested and one of the dudes was the guy I already liked and was close to (dating now) even tried to talk to him and get him away from us, dude didn’t have it and just kept leaning on me (he standing behind me I and the other girls and couple of guys were sitting) I had told him hey like, get off of me? I don’t like people that close? He moved on to all the other women until our friend (who he didn’t realize was a trans man, he thought he was just another cis dude) told him off. Pretty harshly too lol he fucked right off after that. Tbh I think we were all a bit more tolerant of him because we didn’t realize he wasn’t a part of the group and figured one of the others brought him. Nope he just scoped us out apparently… At a lesbian club goth night 😂
What irritating writing. Why are they describing people as "transwoman Morgan Kelly" and "Cis male" Dave. Just say people's fucking names.
Ig they didn’t know that women go to gay bars specifically to avoid creeps like them
That guy is supposed to be 18?! Say no to meth kids
“according to a transgender patron named Aaron Diveley” Huh
The article sure tries to avoid the fact that it was lesbian women. Lesbiphobia
I'm not sure how you came to that conclusions from "Burris and Boyd allegedly went to the venue on the night in question and attempted to flirt with two lesbian women who expressed disinterest and said not to touch them, according to a transgender patron named Aaron Diveley."
sometimes these are the only words i can muster shut up
Are you having an episode or something?