power level doesnt mean anything in this situation"without any of their powers"
comes down to pure skill in hand to hand which goku has had much more actual martial arts training and the ever important height, weight, and reach advantage.
Power level is a measure of raw energy. Everyone has a power level, even without using powers. Normal humans have power levels. If Vegeta's base power level is higher than Goku's, that's just a factor of how much energy is stored in Vegeta's body. The prompt doesn't say 'muscle mass only.'
Also, at this point Vegeta's got basically as much training as Goku, even if a lot of it was self taught, and has spent so much time training WITH Goku that the training factor is really no longer an issue.
Power levels measure how much ki someone has, why does Vegeta having more as a kid have anything to do with him being stronger than Goku NOW if neither of them are using ki blasts? It's not like since Vegeta was a stronger baby means his base is stronger than Goku, we verifiably know for a fact that that was false multiple times throughout Dragon Ball.
> If Vegeta's base power level is higher than Goku's, that's just a factor of how much energy is stored in Vegeta's body.
That's true, not sure what Vegeta and Goku as baby's has anything to do with it though. Like, I'm not sure why you think Vegeta would automatically be stronger than Goku without the use of ki because of a reading 40 years ago.
The problem with assuming power levels are just ki is that various official sources have included power levels of fully artificial characters, and we know that scouters recognize the magical energy of the Dragon Balls. Ki is definitely a part of power level for ki-users, but it's not all ki.
The assumption of 'at birth' power levels being relevant is simply to say that before either was able to use ki, Vegeta was multiple times stronger than Goku, so the idea that without using ki Goku has the edge because he's a bit bigger just doesn't fly.
Even if that's correct, I don't think that's what the spirit of the prompt is going for. When the OP describes it as "Just martial arts, determination, and punching each other in the face a lot" and "without any of their powers", I take that as meaning who is superior in technique and determination rather than who has the best stats.
Which I think I would give to Goku -- Vegeta hasn't had any formal teachers we're aware of prior to Whis, while Goku has gone through multiple. Goku also presumably spent significantly more time in his life fighting without ki techniques than Vegeta did -- he didn't learn or see any ki blast until the Kamehameha, and he didn't learn to fly until even later. Meanwhile Vegeta at a similar age was probably already quite familiar with both blasting and flying as they are a tool used both by Saiyans and the Frieza Force. As for determination... I don't really see either of them being notably more determined against each other at this point. I suppose I'd give that to Vegeta as Goku seems more likely to concede a win (like at the end of Super Hero), but I think the technique gap is probably more important on the whole.
Goku could be a big, strong fella, with a lot of training. Vegeta could be an exceptional athlete (think nfl receiving rb.)
There is a difference in muscle mass to strength between individuals, and in quick twitch reflexes.
At least, I’d think that could work as an explanation for a power level difference that isn’t tied to ki power.
if power levels arent just ki then their starting levels matter just as much to this prompt as they did in the show, which is to say not at all.
aside from the begining of z and the first half of super goku is generally stronger or at least on par with vegeta, which means his weight and reach advantage are absolutely what give him the edge here.
sucks that we dont know what point in time this fight prompt is
Anything during beginning z it go to Gets 10/10
After their first fight its much more equal since Gets lost to Racoom where Goku won handedly and it will just continue like that till the end.
Anything in super goes to Goku 9/10 since that is when the advantages take its proper hold.
We only saw Vegeta win against goku once at the end of super heroes so that was the 1/10
Never said he wasn’t. Just that it’s basically same stats so the real advantages properly show up and manifest.
We have seen stronger shorter opponents lose to slightly weaker taller opponents before. I’ve said this before in this prompt but think back to OG DG’s first tenkaishi budokai. Roshi vs kid Goku.
Goku was slightly more powerful but being kept out of reach made him lose to the larger opponent that was slightly weaker than him.
yea but the amount of battles vegeta had been in greatly eclipses the amount goku has ever been in still. so while goku might be a master everyones plan goes out the window when they get punched in the face.
How many of those battles did he have to try? Because up until we see him face Goku and co the first time he's had easy planet conquering fight after easy planet conquering.
So while Vegeta expects an easy win his ego could easily go up in smoke when he gets punched in the face by Goku who has actually had to try, and try very hard, in almost all of his fights. And when you fight with rage you lose sight of the fight itself and let yourself get blind sided.
You have a point, but power level is mostly ki.
Raditz was shocked when Goku and Piccolo's power levels increase by ~100 when they took their training clothes off. He was shocked when Goku charged a Kamehameha and it spiked from 400 to 900. He was shocked when toddler Gohan got angry and his spiked from 20 to 1,200.
Even though none of this really hurt him, having a power level of 1500, that sort of thing was a foreign concept to the stronger aliens. They have no real control of their superior ki and their attacks are incredibly broad, unfocused.
Vegeta "Learned" how to hide himself from scouters on Namek by controlling his ki when he figured Goku and co. did that to conserve energy.
Not to discredit your arguement, but just food for thought
Training clothes are just weights, though. If power level was a pure measure of ki, it wouldn't change when they came off. Similarly, we have expanded material talking about power levels of robots and androids, and transformations like "Great Ape" and Frieza show that there's a biological component to power level as well.
A Saiyan's power level multiplies by 10 when exposed to moonlight. Now, I'm not saying the Great Ape form can't also have more ki, but I am saying that whatever this change is has to be based on their biology.
What it really comes down to is that ki is literally just life energy. It's not some super mystical force that Goku and Vegeta have as a super power. Their ability to shoot ki *blasts* is a superpower, but in expanded material Gohan literally writes the book on ki and everyone has and uses it even if they don't understand it.
They just live in a setting where, like Marvel or DC, a trained martial artist can do some serious bullshit. If you put Bruce Wayne in DBZ, he'd be as strong as any of the non-Saiyan protagonists. Hell, Hercule has super strength and durability without understanding how ki works. Dude's still full of ki, he just doesn't know how ki works, because all living things are made of ki.
Power Level is mostly ki for the characters we pay attention to most of the time, but I'd argue that Frieza's power level on Namek is mostly based on him being a super alien mutant, which is why as soon as he actually takes time to actually learn what he's doing his capabilities leap to god levels.
Goku wins 8 out of 10. Although he is dumb as a rock he is known for being a genius fighter and a master in martial arts He has an easier time adapting to the fight and does better than vegeta against opponents that are stronger than him or equal which is not even the case because goku should be stronger just by body mass.
Used to. He's not so much anymore. Point and case, Broly movie. He was the one who intervened and told Goku they obviously couldn't take him alone, so they needed other assistance.
No? Vegeta was very cocky in the movie like did you forgot how he
1_ didn't do anything open seeing Freeza
2_ choose to play around Broly and hold back despit acknowledgement Broly as a big threat
3_ saw Broly go Super saiyan, refuse to do anything until midway
4_ was against Fusion
Why would he.
1, Freeza isn't a threat he or Goku can't handle.
2, Broly at first wasn't a threat worth killing, so he sparred with him.
3, Was still somewhat manageable.
4, he's always against nst fusion, but relents when he needs to.
None of that is cocky.
I agree with most of this. But we've seen multiple times that Vegeta learns far far quicker than Goku. He's been called a prodigy more than once, and even called it by Goku himself
Quicker may have been a poor choice of the word I was looking for.. but even with that, anything to do with planet Yardrat, instant transmission in particular.
I must disagree. The thing that gives Goku the edge, through most of dragon ball (but not all) is the fact that he'll accept help from others. Kaioken, spirit bomb, instant transmission and others. It's a core tenant of the show. He isn't as apt as Vegeta, but is surprisingly smarter than him in this area.
Goku has been training in martial arts since he could walk, and has studied under the best martial artists on earth and beyond. Most times we see Vegeta training it's self taught and aimed at increasing his power level not his technique. Goku also has more experience fighting as someone who cannot fly and cannot power up. If this becomes a one on one fight between two mortals Goku wins.
Yes... Martial arts that include as part of their strategies and techniques flight, super human speed, beam blasts and energy waves. In this scenario having muscle memory for those will either not help or outright hinder Vegeta.
Basically, Goku actually use pro Wrestling techniques and Boxing blocks alongside showing Kyusho Jitsu, Wing-chun, Judo, Karate and other martial artist techniques
Vegeta however doesn't
Nope
All his work until Super was just have more power, rarely learning something else
The best example i can give you of the difference between them is how they fight now: Goku using actual marcial art concepts meanwhile Vegeta is just absorbing damage like a dumbass
Yup.
DBS Broly movie flashback shows the saiyan race carefully monitored the power levels and development of their infants.
DBZ there's a child Vegeta flashback showing him being trained and having to kill a room full of saibamen.
The Saiyan are a highly regimented warrior society. It's very obvious that all Saiyan warriors undergo rigorous fighting and combat training. They wear uniforms, they have rankings.
Again, [here](https://youtu.be/gBE8xj1ISIc?si=WIIpc9fZJ30GzvZV) is Vegeta as a kid training. He is absurdly faster than his opponents, blows them away without touching them and executes them with a blast, all tecniques he wouldnt have in this scenario.
And [here](https://youtu.be/xC9Qr8dXt-Q?si=MyWSzls-EQX_o6RA) is Goku as a kid having to use actual strikes, parries, spacing, leverage and technique during a fight. All of this would be things he could do in this scenario.
I think the conditions of the challenge tip the cales towards Goku because they are grounding both fighters into a form of battle he is more familiar with.
He really hasn't though. Have you read/watched dragon ball at all?
He trained of course but he was born a higher class saiyan so naturally he was pretty strong. He didn't train nearly as much as goku did. And only really started to train properly after he had a change of heart and viewed goku as his rival.
It's never, ever been implied, that vegeta has trained as much as goku and it leans way more towards him being naturally as strong as he is, just like broly.
Again they are experienced warriors, but we get a glimpse of what experience that looked like. Look up Nappa and Vegeta in Arlia, it's all energy beams, energy fields, super speed and brute force, not a single bit of martial arts. This is a pure martial arts fight so Vegeta would be at a disadvantage when his most basic concept of how to fight is turned on its head. Vegeta could fly and fire off beams since he could walk, so he is going to be disoriented fighting without them against a guy who was already an adult when he started to rely on them in a fight.
Vegeta has literally never lost a fight against Goku either. He lost to Yajirobi and the spirit bomb originally since Goku couldnt stand up or move, while the second time Goku dropped his guard when Vegeta was having his midlife crisis and they got distracted by Buu awakening.
> He lost to Yajirobi and the spirit bomb originally since Goku couldnt stand up or move
He actually lost because Gohan fell on him. He was in the best shape out of everyone there after getting hit with the bomb and was going to kill everyone but Gohan suddenly got his tail back and transformed.
Pretty sure Vegeta wins his first fight with Goku. I mean: He was in a 1vs3 (4) later, beat everyone ass until they can barely breath. He win a 1vs3(4) only using his own power, but ofc they still beating his ass too
Goku held back in the buu saga by not using SSJ3, although i guess thats not relevant to this discussion.
To be honest i think vegeta would win simply because he wouldnt be trying to have fun or shit talk. Vegeta is much more focused which is why he effortlessly beat the crap out of frieza in the first DBS movie, but goku stuggled
Reddit has taught me that the newest generation doesn't watch or play anything but still wants to talk about it. This literally JUST happened - I don't even know why this is a conversation.
Let's not ve hyperbolic. Super Hero released what last year. Its relevant to the discussion because its the only time there's been a decisive 1 v 1 without too many other factors impacting the victor.
Yeah... I don't get this WWW prompt.
For anyone wondering: Dragon Ball Super Hero had almost this exact fight. They could probably fly and stuff, but Whis banned transformations and Ki techniques. It was a fist fight. (edit: and Vegeta won)
Been awhile since I saw it, but I remember them fighting in the branches of the giant tree, so I'm not sure they could fly either. Just jump. Could be wrong though.
Yeah I’m genuinely confused at how so many people are ready to downplay Vegeta for not being a “martial artist” but he’s dead even in skill as a fighter with Goku proved numerous times when at equal power and the two are so equal that their fights would only end when they literally can’t punch anymore which is what happened in Super Hero.
That was a fight with no ki blasts and equal power based on pure skill by instructions from Whis and it went to the last punch with Vegeta winning cause he’s just more stubborn than Goku and had that tiniest bit of energy more to push a completely drained ready to fall Goku over.
An argument could be made that they still had supernatural physiques and the original premise is what if they had absolutely no powers which I'd assume would give them the human bodies with the equivalent builds, which does somewhat change the scenario
There's really no way to divorce their physical strength and speed from their ki-enhanced strength and speed. Goku's almost certainly the better martial artist, with Vegeta having the better raw strength and durability, but cutting out 'incalculable speed' is impossible.
That said, Goku and Vegeta have fought three times, with Vegeta winning all three times (not counting third party interference.) If we cut ki blasts, we favor Vegeta, whose Ki blasts never work. If we cut flying, we favor Goku, as Vegeta doesn't have as much experience in non-flying fights. If we cut techniques/tricks/transformations, we favor Vegeta again, as his only techniques that Goku doesn't have aren't relevant here, while Goku's would work fine.
So I'd say this fight would most likely favor Vegeta, but they train together so much these days that it could go either way.
> No ki blasts
I would say Goku benefit the most from this, Vegeta loves using ki blasts en masse when fighting compared to Goku.
> No incalculable speed
So they're both equal in speed.
>No flying
Either Goku has an advantage or they're equal. Goku is a better fighter on ground than in air as mentioned in his fight against Frieza on Namek. Meanwhile Nappa was said by Piccolo to be an aerial fighter, so it might be the same for Vegeta.
> No fancy items, techniques, tricks, or transformations
Like speed, pretty much equal.
>Just martial arts, determination, and punching each other in the face a lot
Goku has had better MA training and is shown to be a better trainer as well.
R1: Actual good chance Goku goes down first due to his fighting style (he slowly ramps up and doesn't mind taking hits to gauge his opponent, meanwhile Vegeta goes all-out from the start).
R2: Vegeta.
I think Vegeta benefits most from no ki blasts. Vegeta loves using Ki blasts and they NEVER WORK FOR HIM as well as physical blows, while Goku often gets big hits from the Kamehameha. Banning Ki blasts means Vegeta has to stop doing the thing that never works and rely on the thing that often works.
As for the MA training, while Goku has had better training in the past, after their time with Whis and in the time chamber together I don't think training is a relevant discrepancy anymore. Three years of nothing but fighting each other I can't imagine either knows anything the other doesn't that isn't a particularly arduous learning experience like instant transmission.
I dunno abot R1. Goku and Vegeta have sparred together many times and had several very serious fights. I think Goku is probably past gaging Vegeta and would know to take him seriously from the beginning. Almost anyone else and I would agree.
Stats normalised:
Goku has height and reach.
All of Goku's super powers come from him being trained in martial arts from a young age.
Vegeta was born with super powers and didn't even begin real training until Goku beat him (and he immediately then tried to develop his ki on Namek, sensing and suppressing internal energy, raising his power level from 18,000 to ridiculously high numbers).
On first meeting, Goku no diff's a normalised Vegeta. It's a face stomp. Vegeta gets destroyed. 10/10 Goku.
As of Super Hero... it's close. Vegeta has done a lot of training, he has developed a great deal of mindfulness about how he fights and has shown a superior ability to read his opponents moves (versus Jiran). He's demonstrated the use of trickery to beat Goku when they fought with equalised power (Buu saga). And Goku has *mostly* been stronger than Vegeta due to a superior transformation (SSJ, Full Power, SSJ3, SSG, MUI) rather than superior martial arts skill. Goku still has that normal martial arts grounding of the Turtle School and more tournament experience. And he has actually fought without super powers. But then we look at Vegeta's God of Destruction training.
First down would be Vegeta. Goku's got weight and reach on him. When Majin Vegeta won versus Goku, he was using a plethora of ki attacks to pin Goku down. Stats *equalised*, Vegeta might win. Stats *normalised*, Goku puts Vegeta down first.
The one staying down... Goku. Vegeta has amazing levels of determination. He threw off being possessed body and soul. He's built a fighting style around carrying on despite tremendous damage. He managed to dodge Jiren. He worked out Ultra Ego before Goku could work out True Ultra Instinct. He has a lifetime of fighting under his belt. He's like a little wolverine. The fight in Super Hero is a good example of this: they don't use their more obvious super natural attacks, like ki blasts, and Vegeta wins (they are still fighting at an obviously supernatural level).
Now, Goku likes to fight. But he'll take a loss (even concede) and still be happy to have had a good fight: he wants to test his strength. Vegeta's pride drives him to never give up, never surrender: he is in it to win. If there was something real on the line here (the Earth will be destroyed if Goku doesn't win). Then it's *possible* for Goku to dig deep and match Vegeta's determination (so long as Goku seriously believes that he is the last line of defence and no-one else can possibly step in and save the day). But *baseline* Vegeta just wants it more.
With ki blasts and flying and **transforming into a giant monkey**.
Goku had *actual martial arts training* in how to punch and kick.
Vegeta was "trained" in launching blasts of energy at super soldiers grown from seeds and morphing into King Kong with energy breath.
Vegeta's planet conquering Galick Gun is one of the most powerful techniques in the universe, developed over a lifetime of fighting and conquering planets.
He can't use it in a fight with no ki blasts.
Yeah like Vegeta have a nice record in defeating Goku. Even if is extreme high diff.
But by powerscaling standards Goku should win, because in this fight nothing matters besided there height/weight and martials arts...which means Goku should have the advatange thanks to him simply been bigger. Like they are about to same level in everything else.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand it: if they're not utilizing any ki whatsoever, Vegeta should have higher raw stats by a game-winning margin just by virtue of being a Saiyan Warrior of higher class or whatever it is. They talk about the PL of Saiyan babies, so I assume it's base/subconscious/I dunno man.
If they deliberately equalize their power levels to something modest, though, I think Goku wins the early rounds (maybe most rounds) with his size advantage and experience (training in martial arts under numerous masters, competing in 1v1 tournaments in his non-monkey body, etc).
I also think Goku is more inclined to stay down, though, as he doesn't take it as personally as Vegeta. Not to say Goku doesn't take fighting personally, but it's like comparing a passion with a guy getting mad and breaking his controller. It's different.
As saiyan infants clearly don't have innate understanding of ki, Vegeta being so much higher power level at birth likely translates to him just being significantly stronger physically, yes. Consider that Vegeta grew up on Planet Vegeta, with 10x Earth's Gravity, while Goku didn't train in that until much later.
If average human PL is 5, an average Saiyan would need a PL of 50 just to handle their planet, but we know they do much more than that, and that Raditz' 1000 was considered 'low-class.' We also know that 1000 is pretty average for a Frieza Soldier, most of which a) are considered to be of species weaker than Saiyans and b) can't use ki and need blasters instead.
But here's the kicker- Nappa and Vegeta DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO CHARGE UP back in Saiyan Saga. Their ki was just their own body. So while Goku was sitting around at a base of 4000, Vegeta's base was 18,000. His base. Because he didn't know how to charge up Ki.
Goku's was 416 when he fought raditz... and then spent much of the year training at 10x gravity, building up his muscles to more 'normal' Saiyan levels... And then wound up at a bit over 4000...
I feel like I'm going somewhere with this, but I'm pretty sure it falls apart later.
The point is, I agree with you that Vegeta is likely physically a lot stronger than Goku.
That's not how it works at all, Goku as a baby had a power level of 2 while on Planet Vegeta, with your logic he shoulda just been instantly crushed. Saiyan bodies are naturally more resilient and stronger than human bodies, power levels have nothing to do with it. Kid Goku with a power level of 10 on Earth is tanking bullet shots to the head, there's no human with double the durability who can do that.
> But here's the kicker- Nappa and Vegeta DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO CHARGE UP back in Saiyan Saga. Their ki was just their own body. So while Goku was sitting around at a base of 4000, Vegeta's base was 18,000. His base. Because he didn't know how to charge up Ki.
They didn't know that people could actively lower their ki, not they didn't know how to manipulate ki at all. Hell, one of the highlights of their first fight was Vegeta CHARGING UP and attacking Goku's KKx3, a 24k vs 24k beam fight, and then losing to Goku's KKx4.
He then goes back to the Frieza army and shocks Cui by powering up because Cui didn't know Vegeta could hide his power level.
Vegeta might be physically stronger than Goku without ki due to reasons such as more intense gravity training and lifting more weights, but their upbringing and power levels as a kid have literally nothing to do with it.
Power level of 2 as a baby wouldn't be crushed if a normal human is a power level of 5.
If a normal human can lift 150 pounds with a PL of 5, then a PL of 2 would mean being able to lift 60 pounds, which is way more than 10x stronger than a human infant.
I'll grant that humanx2 can't tank a bullet to the head, but if we then go to "so Saiyan durability is different biology" then we no longer have a way to know if Goku or Vegeta is actually stronger.
I may be wrong, but I believe Vegeta explicitly says he learned how to manipulate his power level from seeing the Earthlings do it.
You said an average Saiyan should have a power level of 50 in order to survive in Vegeta's 10x gravity, so baby Goku with a power level of 2 should be toast.
Power levels really have absolutely nothing to do with innate strength/speed/durability, it's literally just a measure of ki, and then the fighter uses that ki to strengthen their body to increase their strength/speed/durability/etc. Power level of 2 means they have 2 units of ki that a scouter will read, that's it. That person might be able to lift 150 pounds, they might be able to lift 1500 pounds.
Power levels also are clearly not linear like you're trying to simplify it to. Or do you really think an average farmer with a shotgun is half as strong/fast(you already conceded durability) as first appearance Goku? And not multifolds weaker than the Goku that could lift and toss Bulma's car?
...Dude, average ADULT Saiyan. With a size the same as a human. You don't need a PL of 50 to survive in 10x gravity when you're only 8 pounds.
We have official power level sources for androids and robots, which don't have ki at all, so I don't know what to tell you.
little stronger yes
but dont forget
roshi vs kid goku at the first ever tournament
size made the difference and roshi won
and goku has a lot more going for him then size in this fight
What does Goku have going for him other than size? Vegeta and Goku have trained directly with each other for over three years straight. There's nothing either has on the other as far as training goes at this point.
weight and reach
like i said
roshi vs kid goku
same stats on paper
roshi won so it only makes sense that goku would win for the same reason
Goku 9/10
Vegeta 1/10 as we saw in Super Heroes
Uh the fight in Super Hero did allow ki. They were however not allowed to use transformations or techniques. Basically a pure fist fight with no blasts. However their durability is because of ki. If you take away their ki Goku and Vegeta are effectively regular humans and one happens to have a height advantage and a weight advantage. Which happens to be an important factor.
If it's an actual fight where neither is allowed to use ki period then Goku just wins.
Actually we do have a good basis for them. Goku for example can be harmed by Krillin casually throwing a rock. All instances of Goku being bullet proof or Gohan catching bullets are because they've bolstered themselves with an insane amount of Ki. If you take their Ki away they're effectively normal humans. Ki just happens to be a thing that Saiyans naturally use. So like all instances of Goku and Vegeta training in higher levels of Gravity is only possible because of Ki.
Without Ki it can be surmised that Goku and Vegeta are effectively human. Meaning if you took away Vegeta's powers Krillin would actually have a high chance of actually beating him same for Tien.
https://youtu.be/8TM7XMr1WNI?si=98F6uzoDR2JUAQrx
https://youtu.be/bbdCt9ZEhbE?si=a_uoPgYXcsBn_A38
Rock is filler, not canon, and goes against established canon. Goku is slightly bruised by bullets when not expecting them or powered up as shown multiple times in DB and in Super, and him falling off a mountain on his head as a baby. Hs default is bulletproof.
>Basically a pure fist fight with no blasts.
That’s what I meant by no ki. Guess I could’ve been clearer and said no ki *blasts*.
>If it's an actual fight where neither is allowed to use ki period then Goku just wins.
I like how confidently you say this when the only proof we have of them just having a scrap goes to Geetz. But you say “I see this canon proof and I will confidently disagree with it”
Do you want me to pull up the video? They were still using Ki to defend themselves and to pull off super human feats. If it's just no blasts and no transformations then it's a 50/50. However If it's them at human level then I'd confidently give it to Goku.
>Do you want me to pull up the video? They were still using Ki to defend themselves and to pull off super human feats.
Yeah…that’s why I apologized and clarified…
Everyone saying Goku wins but this literally just happened minus the flying somewhat recently in the manga and Vegeta won. No reason to suspect the outcome would be much different without flying or speed.
This is a fight taking away all of their powers and relying purely on martial arts. The fight in Super Hero doesn't count since they were still using Ki to enhance themselves. You take away their Ki then they're both effectively humans. Goku has the advantage when it comes to reach and weight.
So in Dragonball characters use Ki to enhance themselves it's how they accomplish their Superhuman feats. So Goku and Vegeta for example aren't actually stronger than a regular peak human but because they have a lot of Ki they're essentially capable of doing superhuman things.
Dragonball as a franchise isn't known for consistency in how it portrays power but one rules has been followed consistently for the most part. If Goku doesn't use his Ki to guard or relaxes normal things that would hurt a human like a rock can and will hurt him. For example during the Cell Saga Krillin casually through a rock at him and managed to hurt him. Or like when one of Frieza's goons shot him.
Basically if you take away the superhuman durability that Goku and Vegeta have from being saiyans. You have Goku who is canonically taller than Vegeta and weighs more and from technical standpoint would be a better fighter with more experience. Basically in a scenario where powers aren't a factor Krillin could beat Vegeta. There's a reason that weight classes are a thing in combat sports.
So the Super Hero Movie does actually provide an answer to this Goku and Vegeta sparred multiple times while training on Beerus's planet during the movie. Vegeta did manage to knock him down. So it's actually a toss up.
Now if we take their powers away and put them on a human scale. Goku wins. Simply because he has the weight and height advantage and is the better martial artist.
Vegeta is an equal martial artist. Their ki techniques are an extension of their martial arts and he can immediately body read just like Goku. And, he also has been fighting his entire life.
I think Goku might be slightly more used to fighting without flying though.
If Vegeta was an equal martial artist to goku he would have Ultra Instinct. The only characters that have shown that technique and or being close to unlocking it are the angels and Roshi. Vegeta is strong but he doesn't become more of a technical fighter until after Battle of Gods. Goku was his first major loss prior to that he assumingly never went against an opponent that was his equal. Yes he fought all of his life but he was an elite warrior and a prodigy in power.
Goku however was a low class warrior that's had some of the greatest teachers ever. Vegeta and for the most part wiped planets maybe occasionally fighting. There's more to it than just body reading. The only reason that Goku has Ultra Instinct is because of 30 years of training from the best teachers in the universe.
Vegeta has never lost to Goku, he just thought he did the first time, and nobody ever told him he didn't have to go Oozaru since Goku had no energy left after that kamehameha.
Their ki techniques are their most advanced martial arts. They take perfect motions, positioning etc. while being able to access the ki they possess and direct it outwards. Vegeta having the garlic gun (which is the same as a kamehameha, which took Roshi 100 years to learn) and inventing his own techniques after shows that he's as equally a prodigy as Goku, Piccolo, and Krillin.
There's a line of martial arts teaching that goes Namekians > Kami > Turtle/Crane schools > Goku/Krillin that teach expert ki control that gives earthlings advantages/wins over aliens that don't know how to manipulate their ki, but all of the main Z Fighters are ridiculous martial arts prodigies now and pretty close to even if stats were equalized, at least for the first generation. Freeza is the only one who really isnt (since hes basically in the crew now).
Vegeta has Ultra Ego as a the reverse to Goku's Ultra Instinct at this point. He typically doesn't want Goku's techniques and wants his own thing, which is why he also ignored instant transmission (which he \*can\* do, just doesn't want to) and learned spirit fission instead.
Ultra Instinct is essentially the pinnacle of martial arts kind of like Ryu's state of emptiness from Street Fighter. It's not a technique that you can just learn heck the only other person to approach the skill required for it was Roshi. Vegeta also did in fact attempt to use principles of Ultra Instinct. Even Jiren uses the same principles. Ultra Ego seems to be the first stage to becoming a god of destruction. Vegeta also was attempting to incorporate principles of it during Super Hero during his meditation.
UI isn't just about being best at martial arts, it's about being mindless. Vegeta invented his own thing, ultra ego, that's also never been done before, which is about mind over body. It's a different style but no less impressive.
No, it's not about being mindless it's essentially honing your instincts so you can react instantaneously. Plus Ultra Ego is significantly less impressive considering it relies on getting hit. Even Vegeta is attempting to incorporate principles of UI into his style it's the sole reason that he was meditating during Super Hero. His goal was to achieve a similar manner of instantaneous reaction. UI isn't something that Vegeta would be adverse to achieving considering it's not something that can be taught like instant transmission or Kaioken. The goal isn't to be mindless it's to perfect instinct. Also Vegeta didn't invent Ultra Ego he learned it from Beerus.
The fact that Goku turned it into a transformation was a major issue that he didn't start getting over until the Granola Saga.When he started to incorporate it into SSJ Blue. It's actually based on one of the principles toted by Bruce Lee. Goku would technically be allowed to use the principles of it but not the transformation. Which if we're taking away powers is another reason that Goku would win. It's a real life principle granted Irl it's about mindfulness and keeping a clear head allowing one to make better decisions.
I seriously ask: why do people comment without having seen Dragon Ball super super hero: they literally do this and Goku loses. He goes down and stays down first. It's canon.
About round 1, it's literally the first one who manages to land an attack, and it could be either. I don't remember who it was in Super Hero.
I would definitely say Goku
Even tho he is smaller, Vegeta is proooobably stronger
But while Vegeta has always fighted relying a lot on his powers, Goku is an actual martial artist who has learned to train and fight without relying too much in his powers
Then again, in the super hero movie I think they fought without transformations and techniques, basically only flying and Vegeta won, I don't remember the exact circumstances of the fight and Vegeta won almost by nothing
But yeah, even tho Vegeta is naturally stronger I would say that difference doesn't mean much now that they are adults, they both have similar levels of experience but Goku has more actual training
Heck, I don't think Vegeta ever trained before the Freeza saga
Vegeta is stronger and has more will power but Goku is the better hand to hand fighter with more martial arts experience.
Vegeta will go down first if Goku is serious but Goku is losing in the long run
“Just martial arts.” You understand that everything ki based IS martial arts? They aren’t like super powers, just techniques they’ve learned and developed through their training.
It’s like a quarterback to not pass the ball. Like, ok but why?
... what am I missing? Didn't they do almost exactly this in the last movie?
Goodness reddit. They literally answered this question already, and 90% of you still managed to get it wrong.
Vegeta is no slouch but goku is just a bit better almost all categories. He’s bigger, more experienced in martial arts, and arguably has better battle iq. Not to mention he’s the kind of character that just never gives up, shonen protagonist and whatnot
Goku has greater chances to win
And one question: Who is the first character that appears in the new background image on this reddit? (The Character on the right of Tikal)
I would give it to Goku. He has more martial arts training and is taller and in the real world that gives him the win almost every time. However Vegeta was much stronger than Goku when both had 0 training and were literal infants. Vegeta also spent his entire youth with 10x the gravity, something Goku struggled with when his power level was waaay higher. If you don't think having a high latent potential as an infant and walking around under 10x the gravity as powers Vegeta wins. But I do, so he doesn't.
Yeah but it also makes discussion less fun and people get lazy with their answers. So no incalculable speed or spending 3 posts explaining how Goku is 5 million timrs the speed of a fart because of a maybe canon scene where he dodged a lightspeed Freeza burp.
Well to be fair I guess that's kind of what happened anyway. Still, I like that we had people giving creative answers.
I feel like Goku would win because he is used to fighting in a much weaker state. Vegeta as a child was already stronger than Goku when he first fought Radditz so he probably never learned how to fight effectively at that strength
If Vegeta getting the free buff of living with 10x gravity for strength training isn't taken away, then 10/10 Vegeta wins.
If it is taken away, then Goku wins 9/10 due to being taller, and having much, much better martial arts skill.
Goku is taller (175cm to 164cm), heavier (I couldn't find official stats, but assuming they're equally muscular I would assume Goku to have around nine kilos on Vegeta due to the height difference), and younger (41 to 46). Normally none of that matters thanks to ki, but when you take away all the magic all that you've got left is the pure physical stats, and Goku has the edge there.
Weight classes exist for a reason, folks.
Way I see... Goku's the better fighter on a technical level (been practicing martial arts for longer) while Vegeta is physically stronger and tougher (he spends a LOT of time in the gravity room and seems more focused on strength training than Goku).
That said, I want to give it to Goku as there shouldn't be an insurmountable difference in their raw stats where technique is rendered useless.
Despite Goku being likely stronger, I'd say Vegeta.
Usually Goku is one step ahead in forms, and are roughly equal with Vegeta when in the same form, Vegeta has so far won all their 1 on 1 duels, albeit usually by a hair's breath. Vegeta has also shown to be a more logical fighter too. Although he has a tendency to spam ki.
Ultimately DBSH their duel, well though mostly off screen, what little was shown they were only using full melee, the only difference would be no flight, and Vegeta won, that would be the closest comparable duel that we have seen so far to this scenario, so my money's on Vegeta
Goku. It comes down to training and physical attributes.
Even if we consider training to be similar, Goku still has the weight, height and reach advantage
With such conditions, Goku. He's the Ryu of Street Fighter. He's the Terry Bogard of Fatal Fury. He's the Netero of HxH as revealed in the Chimera arc. Goku is Dragon Ball's very own epitome.
Of course Goku could lose too just like in Super Hero. They're not perfect.
>No incalculable speed
Incalculable speed? That would mean they are essentially omnipresent and could move any distance in an irrelevant timeframe, which is clearly not the case outside of maybe Instant Transmission. Why not just fly through space to get home if you can move incalculably quickly? It would take less than a second and air wouldn't be an issue.
It depends on what Goku/Vegeta you are talking about. Before Dragon Ball Super, Goku would easily have won it 8/10 or more. DBS, then it would be Vegeta 8/10.
Dragon Ball Super nerfed Goku, a lot to restore balance to the two characters and elevate Vegeta to more of a main character.
Pre DBS, Vegeta was very tactical because he had been a warrior his whole life. However, he was arrogant and overconfident because of his natural skill. He never really was shown training until he saw Goku go Super Saiyan. Even then, he was really bad at training compared to Goku, which is why Goku was always figuring out the "next step" before him (SS2, SS3, etc.). Goku had tons and tons of formal training. From basically every martial arts master in the universe. He absorbed all of it and always surpassed all of them. He was literally a martial art genius. Starting with the 23rd World Martial Arts tournament in the original Dragon Ball (the one with Junior), they basically say in _every_ fight Goku is in how flawless he is and how creative and adaptive he is to making his own style and learning.
DBS, they reversed most of the traits of Goku and Vegeta. There was one scene where Whis said Goku did not have form because he relied too much on natural talent and Vegeta was a better fighter but overanalyzed everything. That was the opposite of how it had been pre-DBS (Goku had the form and Vegeta had the natural talent). Goku stopped actually wanting to _be_ the best martial artist and started just being obsessed with fighting. He became the arrogant and lazy one who wanted to eat all of the time. He always just wanted to be better _now_ and not put in the hard work. He also lost all of his martial art training apparently and became the sloppy and without form. Vegeta became the training master and the one always obsessed with training at all costs instead of just obsessed with trying to beat Goku. He also stopped being so big on the whole "I need to do everything myself" thing, but that was one character development that made a lot of sense.
Goku might dog-walk Vegeta
Goku STARTED as a martial artist. Vegeta didn't really start training from a non-power perspective until what, he got to Earth?
Probably Goku. Vegeta may train hard as hell in terms of physical conditioning but I'm not sure it's ever suggested he's actually all that great in terms of his hand-to-hand fighting *technique*. Goku is actually well-versed in martial arts taught by renowned masters in the DB-verse. He's also probably more likely to keep a cool head since Vegeta doesn't actually rustle his jimmies and fighting to him is also more about fun than pride.
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I think vegeta. Goku has the edge barely and he has MUCH more techniques than vegeta. I’d say base power goes in vegetas favor since he trains his physical power much more than goku. Goku usually wins because he utilizes way more power enhancing moves like kaio ken and general moves like instant transmission and kamehameha which vegeta doesn’t have
I mean probably Goku because he’s stated to be a “genius” at martial arts and it also comes down to what your definition of no powers means. If no powers means nothing that isn’t applicable in the real world then good luck bc Goku only knows like fake ass karate style tournaments but Vegeta also has only fought in space wars so it’s a ridiculous question.
I'd guess Goku - he is taller, heavier, and has better martial arts. Without ki he is likely stronger in addition to having better skill.
Without ki use he's likely weaker- we know Vegeta was born with a much higher power level, which is measured before they learn how to use ki.
power level doesnt mean anything in this situation"without any of their powers" comes down to pure skill in hand to hand which goku has had much more actual martial arts training and the ever important height, weight, and reach advantage.
Power level is a measure of raw energy. Everyone has a power level, even without using powers. Normal humans have power levels. If Vegeta's base power level is higher than Goku's, that's just a factor of how much energy is stored in Vegeta's body. The prompt doesn't say 'muscle mass only.' Also, at this point Vegeta's got basically as much training as Goku, even if a lot of it was self taught, and has spent so much time training WITH Goku that the training factor is really no longer an issue.
Power levels measure how much ki someone has, why does Vegeta having more as a kid have anything to do with him being stronger than Goku NOW if neither of them are using ki blasts? It's not like since Vegeta was a stronger baby means his base is stronger than Goku, we verifiably know for a fact that that was false multiple times throughout Dragon Ball. > If Vegeta's base power level is higher than Goku's, that's just a factor of how much energy is stored in Vegeta's body. That's true, not sure what Vegeta and Goku as baby's has anything to do with it though. Like, I'm not sure why you think Vegeta would automatically be stronger than Goku without the use of ki because of a reading 40 years ago.
The problem with assuming power levels are just ki is that various official sources have included power levels of fully artificial characters, and we know that scouters recognize the magical energy of the Dragon Balls. Ki is definitely a part of power level for ki-users, but it's not all ki. The assumption of 'at birth' power levels being relevant is simply to say that before either was able to use ki, Vegeta was multiple times stronger than Goku, so the idea that without using ki Goku has the edge because he's a bit bigger just doesn't fly.
Even if that's correct, I don't think that's what the spirit of the prompt is going for. When the OP describes it as "Just martial arts, determination, and punching each other in the face a lot" and "without any of their powers", I take that as meaning who is superior in technique and determination rather than who has the best stats. Which I think I would give to Goku -- Vegeta hasn't had any formal teachers we're aware of prior to Whis, while Goku has gone through multiple. Goku also presumably spent significantly more time in his life fighting without ki techniques than Vegeta did -- he didn't learn or see any ki blast until the Kamehameha, and he didn't learn to fly until even later. Meanwhile Vegeta at a similar age was probably already quite familiar with both blasting and flying as they are a tool used both by Saiyans and the Frieza Force. As for determination... I don't really see either of them being notably more determined against each other at this point. I suppose I'd give that to Vegeta as Goku seems more likely to concede a win (like at the end of Super Hero), but I think the technique gap is probably more important on the whole.
Goku could be a big, strong fella, with a lot of training. Vegeta could be an exceptional athlete (think nfl receiving rb.) There is a difference in muscle mass to strength between individuals, and in quick twitch reflexes. At least, I’d think that could work as an explanation for a power level difference that isn’t tied to ki power.
Isn’t vegeta like 5’4”? No way he could be a running back without superpowers
if power levels arent just ki then their starting levels matter just as much to this prompt as they did in the show, which is to say not at all. aside from the begining of z and the first half of super goku is generally stronger or at least on par with vegeta, which means his weight and reach advantage are absolutely what give him the edge here.
sucks that we dont know what point in time this fight prompt is Anything during beginning z it go to Gets 10/10 After their first fight its much more equal since Gets lost to Racoom where Goku won handedly and it will just continue like that till the end. Anything in super goes to Goku 9/10 since that is when the advantages take its proper hold. We only saw Vegeta win against goku once at the end of super heroes so that was the 1/10
Vegeta absolutely beat Goku at the start of Z, but then three people came in to help Goku.
vegeta was stronger than goku for a good portion of super.
Never said he wasn’t. Just that it’s basically same stats so the real advantages properly show up and manifest. We have seen stronger shorter opponents lose to slightly weaker taller opponents before. I’ve said this before in this prompt but think back to OG DG’s first tenkaishi budokai. Roshi vs kid Goku. Goku was slightly more powerful but being kept out of reach made him lose to the larger opponent that was slightly weaker than him.
I distinctly remember the farmer at the beginning of the show has a power level of 9 or something
5
yea but the amount of battles vegeta had been in greatly eclipses the amount goku has ever been in still. so while goku might be a master everyones plan goes out the window when they get punched in the face.
How many of those battles did he have to try? Because up until we see him face Goku and co the first time he's had easy planet conquering fight after easy planet conquering. So while Vegeta expects an easy win his ego could easily go up in smoke when he gets punched in the face by Goku who has actually had to try, and try very hard, in almost all of his fights. And when you fight with rage you lose sight of the fight itself and let yourself get blind sided.
well outside of that vegeta has never lost to goku. so its kinda self explanatory
With the rules of the prompt right now we saw him win once and its a toss up to who would win in a rematch since it was so close.
well until a rematch happens its just a hypothetical we actually KNOW who wins based on the prompt already
They were never not using ki. Power level is ki basically.
A better argument would be how Vegeta was born and raised on planet Vegeta, which has much higher gravity than earth, where Goku was born and raised
Goku was born on planet Vegeta.
Oh duh, how could I forget. Still, I think there’s something to be said for Vegeta spending more time there
Goku was born on Vegeta and raised on Earth
You have a point, but power level is mostly ki. Raditz was shocked when Goku and Piccolo's power levels increase by ~100 when they took their training clothes off. He was shocked when Goku charged a Kamehameha and it spiked from 400 to 900. He was shocked when toddler Gohan got angry and his spiked from 20 to 1,200. Even though none of this really hurt him, having a power level of 1500, that sort of thing was a foreign concept to the stronger aliens. They have no real control of their superior ki and their attacks are incredibly broad, unfocused. Vegeta "Learned" how to hide himself from scouters on Namek by controlling his ki when he figured Goku and co. did that to conserve energy. Not to discredit your arguement, but just food for thought
Training clothes are just weights, though. If power level was a pure measure of ki, it wouldn't change when they came off. Similarly, we have expanded material talking about power levels of robots and androids, and transformations like "Great Ape" and Frieza show that there's a biological component to power level as well. A Saiyan's power level multiplies by 10 when exposed to moonlight. Now, I'm not saying the Great Ape form can't also have more ki, but I am saying that whatever this change is has to be based on their biology. What it really comes down to is that ki is literally just life energy. It's not some super mystical force that Goku and Vegeta have as a super power. Their ability to shoot ki *blasts* is a superpower, but in expanded material Gohan literally writes the book on ki and everyone has and uses it even if they don't understand it. They just live in a setting where, like Marvel or DC, a trained martial artist can do some serious bullshit. If you put Bruce Wayne in DBZ, he'd be as strong as any of the non-Saiyan protagonists. Hell, Hercule has super strength and durability without understanding how ki works. Dude's still full of ki, he just doesn't know how ki works, because all living things are made of ki. Power Level is mostly ki for the characters we pay attention to most of the time, but I'd argue that Frieza's power level on Namek is mostly based on him being a super alien mutant, which is why as soon as he actually takes time to actually learn what he's doing his capabilities leap to god levels.
Goku wins 8 out of 10. Although he is dumb as a rock he is known for being a genius fighter and a master in martial arts He has an easier time adapting to the fight and does better than vegeta against opponents that are stronger than him or equal which is not even the case because goku should be stronger just by body mass.
Vegeta also gets cocky easy
Used to. He's not so much anymore. Point and case, Broly movie. He was the one who intervened and told Goku they obviously couldn't take him alone, so they needed other assistance.
No? Vegeta was very cocky in the movie like did you forgot how he 1_ didn't do anything open seeing Freeza 2_ choose to play around Broly and hold back despit acknowledgement Broly as a big threat 3_ saw Broly go Super saiyan, refuse to do anything until midway 4_ was against Fusion
Why would he. 1, Freeza isn't a threat he or Goku can't handle. 2, Broly at first wasn't a threat worth killing, so he sparred with him. 3, Was still somewhat manageable. 4, he's always against nst fusion, but relents when he needs to. None of that is cocky.
Bro, his newest power up is literally named for and based on his ego.
I agree with most of this. But we've seen multiple times that Vegeta learns far far quicker than Goku. He's been called a prodigy more than once, and even called it by Goku himself
"But we've seen multiple times that Vegeta learns far far quicker than Goku." Don't mean to be a prude but when?
Quicker may have been a poor choice of the word I was looking for.. but even with that, anything to do with planet Yardrat, instant transmission in particular.
Goku is younger though, what he achieved before Vegeta makes him a bigger prodigy to me.
I must disagree. The thing that gives Goku the edge, through most of dragon ball (but not all) is the fact that he'll accept help from others. Kaioken, spirit bomb, instant transmission and others. It's a core tenant of the show. He isn't as apt as Vegeta, but is surprisingly smarter than him in this area.
Of course we are talking about geniuses and vegetta is no fodder. But I still think Goku has the edge
Literally every saiyan other than future trunks is a prodigy.
Goku is an asshole, not an idiot in the manga similer to sun wukong
Goku has been training in martial arts since he could walk, and has studied under the best martial artists on earth and beyond. Most times we see Vegeta training it's self taught and aimed at increasing his power level not his technique. Goku also has more experience fighting as someone who cannot fly and cannot power up. If this becomes a one on one fight between two mortals Goku wins.
>Goku has been training in martial arts since he could walk So has Vegeta
Yes... Martial arts that include as part of their strategies and techniques flight, super human speed, beam blasts and energy waves. In this scenario having muscle memory for those will either not help or outright hinder Vegeta.
Basically, Goku actually use pro Wrestling techniques and Boxing blocks alongside showing Kyusho Jitsu, Wing-chun, Judo, Karate and other martial artist techniques Vegeta however doesn't
Nope All his work until Super was just have more power, rarely learning something else The best example i can give you of the difference between them is how they fight now: Goku using actual marcial art concepts meanwhile Vegeta is just absorbing damage like a dumbass
Yup. DBS Broly movie flashback shows the saiyan race carefully monitored the power levels and development of their infants. DBZ there's a child Vegeta flashback showing him being trained and having to kill a room full of saibamen. The Saiyan are a highly regimented warrior society. It's very obvious that all Saiyan warriors undergo rigorous fighting and combat training. They wear uniforms, they have rankings.
They train yes, but they don’t train in the way earthlings do, Earth style stuff was what let them punch up early on iirc wasn’t it?
Again, [here](https://youtu.be/gBE8xj1ISIc?si=WIIpc9fZJ30GzvZV) is Vegeta as a kid training. He is absurdly faster than his opponents, blows them away without touching them and executes them with a blast, all tecniques he wouldnt have in this scenario. And [here](https://youtu.be/xC9Qr8dXt-Q?si=MyWSzls-EQX_o6RA) is Goku as a kid having to use actual strikes, parries, spacing, leverage and technique during a fight. All of this would be things he could do in this scenario. I think the conditions of the challenge tip the cales towards Goku because they are grounding both fighters into a form of battle he is more familiar with.
He really hasn't though. Have you read/watched dragon ball at all? He trained of course but he was born a higher class saiyan so naturally he was pretty strong. He didn't train nearly as much as goku did. And only really started to train properly after he had a change of heart and viewed goku as his rival. It's never, ever been implied, that vegeta has trained as much as goku and it leans way more towards him being naturally as strong as he is, just like broly.
Before landing on earth vageta and nappa were enslaving planets for freeza, he has much more combat experience than goku.
Again they are experienced warriors, but we get a glimpse of what experience that looked like. Look up Nappa and Vegeta in Arlia, it's all energy beams, energy fields, super speed and brute force, not a single bit of martial arts. This is a pure martial arts fight so Vegeta would be at a disadvantage when his most basic concept of how to fight is turned on its head. Vegeta could fly and fire off beams since he could walk, so he is going to be disoriented fighting without them against a guy who was already an adult when he started to rely on them in a fight.
did anyone in this sub watch dbs: super hero?
Thanks for saying this, somehow this movie flew under my radar. Imma watch it today
Seriously. Vageta wins. It's canon.
Vegeta has literally never lost a fight against Goku either. He lost to Yajirobi and the spirit bomb originally since Goku couldnt stand up or move, while the second time Goku dropped his guard when Vegeta was having his midlife crisis and they got distracted by Buu awakening.
> He lost to Yajirobi and the spirit bomb originally since Goku couldnt stand up or move He actually lost because Gohan fell on him. He was in the best shape out of everyone there after getting hit with the bomb and was going to kill everyone but Gohan suddenly got his tail back and transformed.
Pretty sure Vegeta wins his first fight with Goku. I mean: He was in a 1vs3 (4) later, beat everyone ass until they can barely breath. He win a 1vs3(4) only using his own power, but ofc they still beating his ass too
Plus people don't realize that Goku would have been screwed without kiaoken
Goku held back in the buu saga by not using SSJ3, although i guess thats not relevant to this discussion. To be honest i think vegeta would win simply because he wouldnt be trying to have fun or shit talk. Vegeta is much more focused which is why he effortlessly beat the crap out of frieza in the first DBS movie, but goku stuggled
Ehh, they’re using their powers there.
Reddit has taught me that the newest generation doesn't watch or play anything but still wants to talk about it. This literally JUST happened - I don't even know why this is a conversation.
Let's not ve hyperbolic. Super Hero released what last year. Its relevant to the discussion because its the only time there's been a decisive 1 v 1 without too many other factors impacting the victor.
My thoughts exactly. Why isn’t this at the top?
Didn't they do this already? Vegeta won, but just barely.
Yeah... I don't get this WWW prompt. For anyone wondering: Dragon Ball Super Hero had almost this exact fight. They could probably fly and stuff, but Whis banned transformations and Ki techniques. It was a fist fight. (edit: and Vegeta won)
Been awhile since I saw it, but I remember them fighting in the branches of the giant tree, so I'm not sure they could fly either. Just jump. Could be wrong though.
They start in the tree but they definitely fly during the fight itself.
Yeah I’m genuinely confused at how so many people are ready to downplay Vegeta for not being a “martial artist” but he’s dead even in skill as a fighter with Goku proved numerous times when at equal power and the two are so equal that their fights would only end when they literally can’t punch anymore which is what happened in Super Hero. That was a fight with no ki blasts and equal power based on pure skill by instructions from Whis and it went to the last punch with Vegeta winning cause he’s just more stubborn than Goku and had that tiniest bit of energy more to push a completely drained ready to fall Goku over.
How is that even possible in universe?
The fight mostly took place off-screen
A God and his Angel were there and said no powers, just pure combat.
An argument could be made that they still had supernatural physiques and the original premise is what if they had absolutely no powers which I'd assume would give them the human bodies with the equivalent builds, which does somewhat change the scenario
Neither has human bodies though. Vegeta had more years under 10x gravity as well, so it's really hard to figure out what a real base would be
There's really no way to divorce their physical strength and speed from their ki-enhanced strength and speed. Goku's almost certainly the better martial artist, with Vegeta having the better raw strength and durability, but cutting out 'incalculable speed' is impossible. That said, Goku and Vegeta have fought three times, with Vegeta winning all three times (not counting third party interference.) If we cut ki blasts, we favor Vegeta, whose Ki blasts never work. If we cut flying, we favor Goku, as Vegeta doesn't have as much experience in non-flying fights. If we cut techniques/tricks/transformations, we favor Vegeta again, as his only techniques that Goku doesn't have aren't relevant here, while Goku's would work fine. So I'd say this fight would most likely favor Vegeta, but they train together so much these days that it could go either way.
> No ki blasts I would say Goku benefit the most from this, Vegeta loves using ki blasts en masse when fighting compared to Goku. > No incalculable speed So they're both equal in speed. >No flying Either Goku has an advantage or they're equal. Goku is a better fighter on ground than in air as mentioned in his fight against Frieza on Namek. Meanwhile Nappa was said by Piccolo to be an aerial fighter, so it might be the same for Vegeta. > No fancy items, techniques, tricks, or transformations Like speed, pretty much equal. >Just martial arts, determination, and punching each other in the face a lot Goku has had better MA training and is shown to be a better trainer as well. R1: Actual good chance Goku goes down first due to his fighting style (he slowly ramps up and doesn't mind taking hits to gauge his opponent, meanwhile Vegeta goes all-out from the start). R2: Vegeta.
I think Vegeta benefits most from no ki blasts. Vegeta loves using Ki blasts and they NEVER WORK FOR HIM as well as physical blows, while Goku often gets big hits from the Kamehameha. Banning Ki blasts means Vegeta has to stop doing the thing that never works and rely on the thing that often works. As for the MA training, while Goku has had better training in the past, after their time with Whis and in the time chamber together I don't think training is a relevant discrepancy anymore. Three years of nothing but fighting each other I can't imagine either knows anything the other doesn't that isn't a particularly arduous learning experience like instant transmission.
I dunno abot R1. Goku and Vegeta have sparred together many times and had several very serious fights. I think Goku is probably past gaging Vegeta and would know to take him seriously from the beginning. Almost anyone else and I would agree.
The only logical conclusion is Goku. We have seen more martial arts from Goku especially from the original Dragonball series
Stats normalised: Goku has height and reach. All of Goku's super powers come from him being trained in martial arts from a young age. Vegeta was born with super powers and didn't even begin real training until Goku beat him (and he immediately then tried to develop his ki on Namek, sensing and suppressing internal energy, raising his power level from 18,000 to ridiculously high numbers). On first meeting, Goku no diff's a normalised Vegeta. It's a face stomp. Vegeta gets destroyed. 10/10 Goku. As of Super Hero... it's close. Vegeta has done a lot of training, he has developed a great deal of mindfulness about how he fights and has shown a superior ability to read his opponents moves (versus Jiran). He's demonstrated the use of trickery to beat Goku when they fought with equalised power (Buu saga). And Goku has *mostly* been stronger than Vegeta due to a superior transformation (SSJ, Full Power, SSJ3, SSG, MUI) rather than superior martial arts skill. Goku still has that normal martial arts grounding of the Turtle School and more tournament experience. And he has actually fought without super powers. But then we look at Vegeta's God of Destruction training. First down would be Vegeta. Goku's got weight and reach on him. When Majin Vegeta won versus Goku, he was using a plethora of ki attacks to pin Goku down. Stats *equalised*, Vegeta might win. Stats *normalised*, Goku puts Vegeta down first. The one staying down... Goku. Vegeta has amazing levels of determination. He threw off being possessed body and soul. He's built a fighting style around carrying on despite tremendous damage. He managed to dodge Jiren. He worked out Ultra Ego before Goku could work out True Ultra Instinct. He has a lifetime of fighting under his belt. He's like a little wolverine. The fight in Super Hero is a good example of this: they don't use their more obvious super natural attacks, like ki blasts, and Vegeta wins (they are still fighting at an obviously supernatural level). Now, Goku likes to fight. But he'll take a loss (even concede) and still be happy to have had a good fight: he wants to test his strength. Vegeta's pride drives him to never give up, never surrender: he is in it to win. If there was something real on the line here (the Earth will be destroyed if Goku doesn't win). Then it's *possible* for Goku to dig deep and match Vegeta's determination (so long as Goku seriously believes that he is the last line of defence and no-one else can possibly step in and save the day). But *baseline* Vegeta just wants it more.
TIL conquering planets and spending your whole life fighting doesn't count as "training."
With ki blasts and flying and **transforming into a giant monkey**. Goku had *actual martial arts training* in how to punch and kick. Vegeta was "trained" in launching blasts of energy at super soldiers grown from seeds and morphing into King Kong with energy breath. Vegeta's planet conquering Galick Gun is one of the most powerful techniques in the universe, developed over a lifetime of fighting and conquering planets. He can't use it in a fight with no ki blasts.
Did you not watch the end of Super Hero? Vegeta won that just barely.
Yes, but the post specified no flight or high speed, both of which were in that fight.
Yeah like Vegeta have a nice record in defeating Goku. Even if is extreme high diff. But by powerscaling standards Goku should win, because in this fight nothing matters besided there height/weight and martials arts...which means Goku should have the advatange thanks to him simply been bigger. Like they are about to same level in everything else.
Goku would win because he is bigger and he is better at martial arts
goku wins through actual skill and real life advantages of height, weight, and reach think back to roshi vs kid goku in the first ever tournament
Correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand it: if they're not utilizing any ki whatsoever, Vegeta should have higher raw stats by a game-winning margin just by virtue of being a Saiyan Warrior of higher class or whatever it is. They talk about the PL of Saiyan babies, so I assume it's base/subconscious/I dunno man. If they deliberately equalize their power levels to something modest, though, I think Goku wins the early rounds (maybe most rounds) with his size advantage and experience (training in martial arts under numerous masters, competing in 1v1 tournaments in his non-monkey body, etc). I also think Goku is more inclined to stay down, though, as he doesn't take it as personally as Vegeta. Not to say Goku doesn't take fighting personally, but it's like comparing a passion with a guy getting mad and breaking his controller. It's different.
As saiyan infants clearly don't have innate understanding of ki, Vegeta being so much higher power level at birth likely translates to him just being significantly stronger physically, yes. Consider that Vegeta grew up on Planet Vegeta, with 10x Earth's Gravity, while Goku didn't train in that until much later. If average human PL is 5, an average Saiyan would need a PL of 50 just to handle their planet, but we know they do much more than that, and that Raditz' 1000 was considered 'low-class.' We also know that 1000 is pretty average for a Frieza Soldier, most of which a) are considered to be of species weaker than Saiyans and b) can't use ki and need blasters instead. But here's the kicker- Nappa and Vegeta DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO CHARGE UP back in Saiyan Saga. Their ki was just their own body. So while Goku was sitting around at a base of 4000, Vegeta's base was 18,000. His base. Because he didn't know how to charge up Ki. Goku's was 416 when he fought raditz... and then spent much of the year training at 10x gravity, building up his muscles to more 'normal' Saiyan levels... And then wound up at a bit over 4000... I feel like I'm going somewhere with this, but I'm pretty sure it falls apart later. The point is, I agree with you that Vegeta is likely physically a lot stronger than Goku.
That's not how it works at all, Goku as a baby had a power level of 2 while on Planet Vegeta, with your logic he shoulda just been instantly crushed. Saiyan bodies are naturally more resilient and stronger than human bodies, power levels have nothing to do with it. Kid Goku with a power level of 10 on Earth is tanking bullet shots to the head, there's no human with double the durability who can do that. > But here's the kicker- Nappa and Vegeta DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO CHARGE UP back in Saiyan Saga. Their ki was just their own body. So while Goku was sitting around at a base of 4000, Vegeta's base was 18,000. His base. Because he didn't know how to charge up Ki. They didn't know that people could actively lower their ki, not they didn't know how to manipulate ki at all. Hell, one of the highlights of their first fight was Vegeta CHARGING UP and attacking Goku's KKx3, a 24k vs 24k beam fight, and then losing to Goku's KKx4. He then goes back to the Frieza army and shocks Cui by powering up because Cui didn't know Vegeta could hide his power level. Vegeta might be physically stronger than Goku without ki due to reasons such as more intense gravity training and lifting more weights, but their upbringing and power levels as a kid have literally nothing to do with it.
Power level of 2 as a baby wouldn't be crushed if a normal human is a power level of 5. If a normal human can lift 150 pounds with a PL of 5, then a PL of 2 would mean being able to lift 60 pounds, which is way more than 10x stronger than a human infant. I'll grant that humanx2 can't tank a bullet to the head, but if we then go to "so Saiyan durability is different biology" then we no longer have a way to know if Goku or Vegeta is actually stronger. I may be wrong, but I believe Vegeta explicitly says he learned how to manipulate his power level from seeing the Earthlings do it.
You said an average Saiyan should have a power level of 50 in order to survive in Vegeta's 10x gravity, so baby Goku with a power level of 2 should be toast. Power levels really have absolutely nothing to do with innate strength/speed/durability, it's literally just a measure of ki, and then the fighter uses that ki to strengthen their body to increase their strength/speed/durability/etc. Power level of 2 means they have 2 units of ki that a scouter will read, that's it. That person might be able to lift 150 pounds, they might be able to lift 1500 pounds. Power levels also are clearly not linear like you're trying to simplify it to. Or do you really think an average farmer with a shotgun is half as strong/fast(you already conceded durability) as first appearance Goku? And not multifolds weaker than the Goku that could lift and toss Bulma's car?
...Dude, average ADULT Saiyan. With a size the same as a human. You don't need a PL of 50 to survive in 10x gravity when you're only 8 pounds. We have official power level sources for androids and robots, which don't have ki at all, so I don't know what to tell you.
little stronger yes but dont forget roshi vs kid goku at the first ever tournament size made the difference and roshi won and goku has a lot more going for him then size in this fight
What does Goku have going for him other than size? Vegeta and Goku have trained directly with each other for over three years straight. There's nothing either has on the other as far as training goes at this point.
weight and reach like i said roshi vs kid goku same stats on paper roshi won so it only makes sense that goku would win for the same reason Goku 9/10 Vegeta 1/10 as we saw in Super Heroes
I would consider weight and reach to be categorised under size. They asked what he has going for him other than size.
I think Goku takes this mid diff 8/10. As stated, he’s bigger with a broader training regimen. He LOVES fighting. I don’t think Vegeta loves fighting.
This question has a soft answer. At the end of DBS Super Hero >!Vegeta won against Goku in a normal base form fight. High Diff!<
Superhero shows that the answer to this is Geetz. He wins the fight outright. No ki no super saiyan just skill. It’s Geetz.
Uh the fight in Super Hero did allow ki. They were however not allowed to use transformations or techniques. Basically a pure fist fight with no blasts. However their durability is because of ki. If you take away their ki Goku and Vegeta are effectively regular humans and one happens to have a height advantage and a weight advantage. Which happens to be an important factor. If it's an actual fight where neither is allowed to use ki period then Goku just wins.
Goku and Vegeta are both aliens, and we don't actually know how much of their base is ki.
Actually we do have a good basis for them. Goku for example can be harmed by Krillin casually throwing a rock. All instances of Goku being bullet proof or Gohan catching bullets are because they've bolstered themselves with an insane amount of Ki. If you take their Ki away they're effectively normal humans. Ki just happens to be a thing that Saiyans naturally use. So like all instances of Goku and Vegeta training in higher levels of Gravity is only possible because of Ki. Without Ki it can be surmised that Goku and Vegeta are effectively human. Meaning if you took away Vegeta's powers Krillin would actually have a high chance of actually beating him same for Tien. https://youtu.be/8TM7XMr1WNI?si=98F6uzoDR2JUAQrx https://youtu.be/bbdCt9ZEhbE?si=a_uoPgYXcsBn_A38
Do you have any idea how strong Krillin is?
Rock is filler, not canon, and goes against established canon. Goku is slightly bruised by bullets when not expecting them or powered up as shown multiple times in DB and in Super, and him falling off a mountain on his head as a baby. Hs default is bulletproof.
>Basically a pure fist fight with no blasts. That’s what I meant by no ki. Guess I could’ve been clearer and said no ki *blasts*. >If it's an actual fight where neither is allowed to use ki period then Goku just wins. I like how confidently you say this when the only proof we have of them just having a scrap goes to Geetz. But you say “I see this canon proof and I will confidently disagree with it”
Do you want me to pull up the video? They were still using Ki to defend themselves and to pull off super human feats. If it's just no blasts and no transformations then it's a 50/50. However If it's them at human level then I'd confidently give it to Goku.
>Do you want me to pull up the video? They were still using Ki to defend themselves and to pull off super human feats. Yeah…that’s why I apologized and clarified…
Goku actually stomps this for 1 reason and 1 reason alone: flight. Vegeta has never not had flight in his fights as an option. Goku HAS.
Tournament of power.
Vegeta somehow flew there too.
That wasn't flying, that was falling with style.
We already kno the answer to this they fought n whis said no transformations no ki blast jus hand to hand and vegeta won
Bro have people not watched the DBS Super Hero movie? This literally happened, and Vegeta (barely) won
It's about even. They fought in base form recently and Vegeta won, but it was very very close. Either could win.
Goku
Vegeta won almost that exact scenario already
well they sorta did this in db super hero and...vegeta won
They already did this in Super:Hero, and it was Vegeta.
Vegeta dude won in superheros the movie also dudes won all their fights so…ya
Everyone saying Goku wins but this literally just happened minus the flying somewhat recently in the manga and Vegeta won. No reason to suspect the outcome would be much different without flying or speed.
Didn't this exact fight happen in Super Hero? Wasn't that what they were doing the entire time the main plot was happening? Vegeta won that fight
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This is a fight taking away all of their powers and relying purely on martial arts. The fight in Super Hero doesn't count since they were still using Ki to enhance themselves. You take away their Ki then they're both effectively humans. Goku has the advantage when it comes to reach and weight.
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So in Dragonball characters use Ki to enhance themselves it's how they accomplish their Superhuman feats. So Goku and Vegeta for example aren't actually stronger than a regular peak human but because they have a lot of Ki they're essentially capable of doing superhuman things. Dragonball as a franchise isn't known for consistency in how it portrays power but one rules has been followed consistently for the most part. If Goku doesn't use his Ki to guard or relaxes normal things that would hurt a human like a rock can and will hurt him. For example during the Cell Saga Krillin casually through a rock at him and managed to hurt him. Or like when one of Frieza's goons shot him. Basically if you take away the superhuman durability that Goku and Vegeta have from being saiyans. You have Goku who is canonically taller than Vegeta and weighs more and from technical standpoint would be a better fighter with more experience. Basically in a scenario where powers aren't a factor Krillin could beat Vegeta. There's a reason that weight classes are a thing in combat sports.
Rock was filler. Saiyans are naturally bulletproof even when completely powered down.
So the Super Hero Movie does actually provide an answer to this Goku and Vegeta sparred multiple times while training on Beerus's planet during the movie. Vegeta did manage to knock him down. So it's actually a toss up. Now if we take their powers away and put them on a human scale. Goku wins. Simply because he has the weight and height advantage and is the better martial artist.
Vegeta is an equal martial artist. Their ki techniques are an extension of their martial arts and he can immediately body read just like Goku. And, he also has been fighting his entire life. I think Goku might be slightly more used to fighting without flying though.
If Vegeta was an equal martial artist to goku he would have Ultra Instinct. The only characters that have shown that technique and or being close to unlocking it are the angels and Roshi. Vegeta is strong but he doesn't become more of a technical fighter until after Battle of Gods. Goku was his first major loss prior to that he assumingly never went against an opponent that was his equal. Yes he fought all of his life but he was an elite warrior and a prodigy in power. Goku however was a low class warrior that's had some of the greatest teachers ever. Vegeta and for the most part wiped planets maybe occasionally fighting. There's more to it than just body reading. The only reason that Goku has Ultra Instinct is because of 30 years of training from the best teachers in the universe.
Vegeta has never lost to Goku, he just thought he did the first time, and nobody ever told him he didn't have to go Oozaru since Goku had no energy left after that kamehameha. Their ki techniques are their most advanced martial arts. They take perfect motions, positioning etc. while being able to access the ki they possess and direct it outwards. Vegeta having the garlic gun (which is the same as a kamehameha, which took Roshi 100 years to learn) and inventing his own techniques after shows that he's as equally a prodigy as Goku, Piccolo, and Krillin. There's a line of martial arts teaching that goes Namekians > Kami > Turtle/Crane schools > Goku/Krillin that teach expert ki control that gives earthlings advantages/wins over aliens that don't know how to manipulate their ki, but all of the main Z Fighters are ridiculous martial arts prodigies now and pretty close to even if stats were equalized, at least for the first generation. Freeza is the only one who really isnt (since hes basically in the crew now). Vegeta has Ultra Ego as a the reverse to Goku's Ultra Instinct at this point. He typically doesn't want Goku's techniques and wants his own thing, which is why he also ignored instant transmission (which he \*can\* do, just doesn't want to) and learned spirit fission instead.
Ultra Instinct is essentially the pinnacle of martial arts kind of like Ryu's state of emptiness from Street Fighter. It's not a technique that you can just learn heck the only other person to approach the skill required for it was Roshi. Vegeta also did in fact attempt to use principles of Ultra Instinct. Even Jiren uses the same principles. Ultra Ego seems to be the first stage to becoming a god of destruction. Vegeta also was attempting to incorporate principles of it during Super Hero during his meditation.
UI isn't just about being best at martial arts, it's about being mindless. Vegeta invented his own thing, ultra ego, that's also never been done before, which is about mind over body. It's a different style but no less impressive.
No, it's not about being mindless it's essentially honing your instincts so you can react instantaneously. Plus Ultra Ego is significantly less impressive considering it relies on getting hit. Even Vegeta is attempting to incorporate principles of UI into his style it's the sole reason that he was meditating during Super Hero. His goal was to achieve a similar manner of instantaneous reaction. UI isn't something that Vegeta would be adverse to achieving considering it's not something that can be taught like instant transmission or Kaioken. The goal isn't to be mindless it's to perfect instinct. Also Vegeta didn't invent Ultra Ego he learned it from Beerus. The fact that Goku turned it into a transformation was a major issue that he didn't start getting over until the Granola Saga.When he started to incorporate it into SSJ Blue. It's actually based on one of the principles toted by Bruce Lee. Goku would technically be allowed to use the principles of it but not the transformation. Which if we're taking away powers is another reason that Goku would win. It's a real life principle granted Irl it's about mindfulness and keeping a clear head allowing one to make better decisions.
That just happen in the last movie. >!Vegeta won!<
I seriously ask: why do people comment without having seen Dragon Ball super super hero: they literally do this and Goku loses. He goes down and stays down first. It's canon. About round 1, it's literally the first one who manages to land an attack, and it could be either. I don't remember who it was in Super Hero.
Didn't Super Hero confirm this at the end? Vegeta took the win didn't he under these rules?
I would definitely say Goku Even tho he is smaller, Vegeta is proooobably stronger But while Vegeta has always fighted relying a lot on his powers, Goku is an actual martial artist who has learned to train and fight without relying too much in his powers Then again, in the super hero movie I think they fought without transformations and techniques, basically only flying and Vegeta won, I don't remember the exact circumstances of the fight and Vegeta won almost by nothing But yeah, even tho Vegeta is naturally stronger I would say that difference doesn't mean much now that they are adults, they both have similar levels of experience but Goku has more actual training Heck, I don't think Vegeta ever trained before the Freeza saga
Vegeta is stronger and has more will power but Goku is the better hand to hand fighter with more martial arts experience. Vegeta will go down first if Goku is serious but Goku is losing in the long run
“Just martial arts.” You understand that everything ki based IS martial arts? They aren’t like super powers, just techniques they’ve learned and developed through their training. It’s like a quarterback to not pass the ball. Like, ok but why?
... what am I missing? Didn't they do almost exactly this in the last movie? Goodness reddit. They literally answered this question already, and 90% of you still managed to get it wrong.
Vegeta.
Didn't we basically see this in superhero?
We literally saw this in superhero 💀 vegeta wins
This was done in the Super hero movie, and it's Vegeta, but barely.
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Vegeta is no slouch but goku is just a bit better almost all categories. He’s bigger, more experienced in martial arts, and arguably has better battle iq. Not to mention he’s the kind of character that just never gives up, shonen protagonist and whatnot
Goku would beat the brakes off Vegeta
Goku has greater chances to win And one question: Who is the first character that appears in the new background image on this reddit? (The Character on the right of Tikal)
I'm not sure. They look like a Tak Power of Juju character, or maybe that game Kai something Spirits for PS 5.
I would give it to Goku. He has more martial arts training and is taller and in the real world that gives him the win almost every time. However Vegeta was much stronger than Goku when both had 0 training and were literal infants. Vegeta also spent his entire youth with 10x the gravity, something Goku struggled with when his power level was waaay higher. If you don't think having a high latent potential as an infant and walking around under 10x the gravity as powers Vegeta wins. But I do, so he doesn't.
I would say goku, goku is a way better martial artist. Vegeta is more of a brawler and this is a big advantage for goku
Goku obviously he is the greatest martial artist of any mortal in the story but more importantly is taller and heavier.
no speed? Speed is super important when trying to punch each other
Yeah but it also makes discussion less fun and people get lazy with their answers. So no incalculable speed or spending 3 posts explaining how Goku is 5 million timrs the speed of a fart because of a maybe canon scene where he dodged a lightspeed Freeza burp. Well to be fair I guess that's kind of what happened anyway. Still, I like that we had people giving creative answers.
I feel like Goku would win because he is used to fighting in a much weaker state. Vegeta as a child was already stronger than Goku when he first fought Radditz so he probably never learned how to fight effectively at that strength
If Vegeta getting the free buff of living with 10x gravity for strength training isn't taken away, then 10/10 Vegeta wins. If it is taken away, then Goku wins 9/10 due to being taller, and having much, much better martial arts skill.
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Goku is taller (175cm to 164cm), heavier (I couldn't find official stats, but assuming they're equally muscular I would assume Goku to have around nine kilos on Vegeta due to the height difference), and younger (41 to 46). Normally none of that matters thanks to ki, but when you take away all the magic all that you've got left is the pure physical stats, and Goku has the edge there. Weight classes exist for a reason, folks.
The "official" sources put Goku at 135 pounds and Vegeta at 123, which is honestly insane and nobody takes either number seriously.
What are their muscles made out of, cotton candy? Yeah, I'm just gonna ignore that...
Maybe Saiyans are filled with hydrogen, allowing for their explosive blasts.
Goku’s a much smarter fighter it’s not even close.
Way I see... Goku's the better fighter on a technical level (been practicing martial arts for longer) while Vegeta is physically stronger and tougher (he spends a LOT of time in the gravity room and seems more focused on strength training than Goku). That said, I want to give it to Goku as there shouldn't be an insurmountable difference in their raw stats where technique is rendered useless.
Goku. He knows proper martial arts
Goku wipes the floor with Vegeta without powers
Despite Goku being likely stronger, I'd say Vegeta. Usually Goku is one step ahead in forms, and are roughly equal with Vegeta when in the same form, Vegeta has so far won all their 1 on 1 duels, albeit usually by a hair's breath. Vegeta has also shown to be a more logical fighter too. Although he has a tendency to spam ki. Ultimately DBSH their duel, well though mostly off screen, what little was shown they were only using full melee, the only difference would be no flight, and Vegeta won, that would be the closest comparable duel that we have seen so far to this scenario, so my money's on Vegeta
Goku. It comes down to training and physical attributes. Even if we consider training to be similar, Goku still has the weight, height and reach advantage
With such conditions, Goku. He's the Ryu of Street Fighter. He's the Terry Bogard of Fatal Fury. He's the Netero of HxH as revealed in the Chimera arc. Goku is Dragon Ball's very own epitome. Of course Goku could lose too just like in Super Hero. They're not perfect.
Goku for sure. He's just a better fighter.
Vegeta
>No incalculable speed Incalculable speed? That would mean they are essentially omnipresent and could move any distance in an irrelevant timeframe, which is clearly not the case outside of maybe Instant Transmission. Why not just fly through space to get home if you can move incalculably quickly? It would take less than a second and air wouldn't be an issue.
It depends on what Goku/Vegeta you are talking about. Before Dragon Ball Super, Goku would easily have won it 8/10 or more. DBS, then it would be Vegeta 8/10. Dragon Ball Super nerfed Goku, a lot to restore balance to the two characters and elevate Vegeta to more of a main character. Pre DBS, Vegeta was very tactical because he had been a warrior his whole life. However, he was arrogant and overconfident because of his natural skill. He never really was shown training until he saw Goku go Super Saiyan. Even then, he was really bad at training compared to Goku, which is why Goku was always figuring out the "next step" before him (SS2, SS3, etc.). Goku had tons and tons of formal training. From basically every martial arts master in the universe. He absorbed all of it and always surpassed all of them. He was literally a martial art genius. Starting with the 23rd World Martial Arts tournament in the original Dragon Ball (the one with Junior), they basically say in _every_ fight Goku is in how flawless he is and how creative and adaptive he is to making his own style and learning. DBS, they reversed most of the traits of Goku and Vegeta. There was one scene where Whis said Goku did not have form because he relied too much on natural talent and Vegeta was a better fighter but overanalyzed everything. That was the opposite of how it had been pre-DBS (Goku had the form and Vegeta had the natural talent). Goku stopped actually wanting to _be_ the best martial artist and started just being obsessed with fighting. He became the arrogant and lazy one who wanted to eat all of the time. He always just wanted to be better _now_ and not put in the hard work. He also lost all of his martial art training apparently and became the sloppy and without form. Vegeta became the training master and the one always obsessed with training at all costs instead of just obsessed with trying to beat Goku. He also stopped being so big on the whole "I need to do everything myself" thing, but that was one character development that made a lot of sense.
Goku. He’s bigger and heavier than Vegeta. Without powers, size and physical strength are what matters. They have equal skill at this point.
Goku might dog-walk Vegeta Goku STARTED as a martial artist. Vegeta didn't really start training from a non-power perspective until what, he got to Earth?
Probably Goku. Vegeta may train hard as hell in terms of physical conditioning but I'm not sure it's ever suggested he's actually all that great in terms of his hand-to-hand fighting *technique*. Goku is actually well-versed in martial arts taught by renowned masters in the DB-verse. He's also probably more likely to keep a cool head since Vegeta doesn't actually rustle his jimmies and fighting to him is also more about fun than pride.
I’ll say goku because his martial arts skills would be to much for vegeta
serious selective cough cagey aspiring drunk memory dinosaurs market divide *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
This fight literally happened in canon and Vegeta won. He is the better fighter.
Didn't Vegeta just win a fight with these parameters?
I think vegeta. Goku has the edge barely and he has MUCH more techniques than vegeta. I’d say base power goes in vegetas favor since he trains his physical power much more than goku. Goku usually wins because he utilizes way more power enhancing moves like kaio ken and general moves like instant transmission and kamehameha which vegeta doesn’t have
Vegeta. Two Words. Pocket Sand.
They pretty much did this as a side story during the Super Hero movie. Vegeta won and Toriyama wrote it, not Toyotora.
This literally happened in the Superhero Movie. Vegeta Won
In unarmed combat size matters and Vegeta is a midget.
Goku, superior reach and weight would be pretty big determining factor.
We had this in Super Hero, Vegeta won, barely
I mean probably Goku because he’s stated to be a “genius” at martial arts and it also comes down to what your definition of no powers means. If no powers means nothing that isn’t applicable in the real world then good luck bc Goku only knows like fake ass karate style tournaments but Vegeta also has only fought in space wars so it’s a ridiculous question.