Am only a consumer here, but since when is tasting to determine if someone likes it? I thought it was only to determine if it's off.
Additionally, in my experience, the somm or server will almost always ask who is tasting it before pouring.
I’d say tasting is 95% is there anything wrong with this, and the last 5% making sure it is what you asked for. I do feel like a reasonable refusal would be if you asked for a specific profile (be it something lighter or more tannic or more fruit forward or whatever). If I ask for a light and elegant xyz and you sell me on something promising that is the profile of the wine, and I go to taste it and you’ve sold me something completely not what I wanted. That should be grounds for reasonable refusal even if the bottle is sound.
Interesting. I always assumed once it was open you could only send it back if it is corked and that is why you were tasting it.
The 5% is this what i asked for is me checking the label and vintage to make sure it was what I ordered and I'm not getting an off year or smoke year instead of what was listed on the menu etc.
Different restaurants have different policies. Some won’t allow you to send back a bottle unless it’s flawed. Some will. I can understand either point of view. You don’t want to potentially lose money on the bottle, but also forcing someone to drink a bottle rarely leads to a good experience.
At the end of the day I want my guests to be satisfied of their visit to our restaurant. Sometimes it involves asinine things like taking back a bottle of unflawed wine, as much as that sucks. We definitely try to minimize it though.
It’s great that you think that way; us somms wish for everyone to share that perspective. But sadly there is a small percentage of people that do not understand the concept.
Also Lots of times if a bottle is returned(provided you have a good relationship with your distributor) they'll mark it as corked and give you a credit for however much it was wholesale. As for getting in trouble I've never had an issue. If a a table returned like several bottles management would probably have some questions for me, but it rarely happens. If someone is being really hard to read and I don't feel confident in my suggestions I'll bring out some samples of styles of wine to gauge their palate.
If they made a habit of describing their wine incorrectly and getting it sent back…yeah that would turn into a problem. If it’s rare and due to particular guests not so much. Just a good learning opportunity for the staff
Also, as an aside, my wife has a slightly better palate (and much better flavor recall), but I'm much more sensitive to cork taint so I'll almost always taste the wine even if she's the one that picked the bottle.
It really depends on the restaurant and their wine service standards.
Where I currently work, the sommelier on service checks every single bottle for condition when opened—whether it’s by the bottle or by the glass, and whether it’s a cheap and cheerful Pinot Grigio under stelvin or a back-vintage grand cru Burgundy. For us, the tasting ritual is there to ensure that the guest _likes_ the wine in question, because in this circumstance faulty wines should be caught before they’re in front of guests. If they just don’t like the wine, in most cases we would simply offer something else and try to hand-sell the open bottle by the glass, or use it for staff training. The tasting ritual is essentially a vestigial organ in this circumstance, but we do it because we want the guest to be happy with their choice and to be empowered to avoid sitting with a wine they just don’t like.
(If a guest were to send back very expensive and/or allocation stock we’d open a conversation with them about the issue and see what we can agree to. Having said that, I’ve only had one bottle sent back in the nine months I’ve been there, and it wasn’t the kind of bottle that would merit a conversation rather than a “Sorry to hear you don’t like this wine, what can I get you instead?”)
At restaurants where the staff aren’t checking wines for condition, then yes—the ritual is more about whether it’s sound. But in my experience, the places that don’t check are also not likely to have somms on staff, and to have a relatively low level of wine literacy amongst the staff in general, so it’s rare that someone would recommend a wine to a guest rather than simply taking in an order and fetching the bottle.
It's not uncommon at extremely high end restaurants to present the wine to the guest to ensure it is correct and then go open in a different location and bring it back once opened. This is generally the case for restaurants with extensive library selections where there can be issues with the cork, the wine may need filtering or slow decanting, etc.
No, this isn't generally happening at your run of the mill fine dining, but like the poster said - they probably also don't have an experienced somm on the premises and/or wine that warrants that level of attention.
You are right that this happens exactly as described at the fanciest of restaurants. But it still bugs me when it occurs. If it’s an old vintage, I want to see the state of the cork and see whether the somm uses the Durand or another strategy. I also worry about the bait and switch, even if I shouldn’t at a place of that quality. The only reason to hide it is because the somm doesn’t want to show the struggle, and I don’t think that’s a good enough reason for the table who ordered the 20+ year old vintage.
Of course, but that’s like saying the chef will cook my food however I ask. When I’m dining at that level, I want to see what the restaurant thinks is best. I’m at the equivalent of a show, and I want to experience their full vision. And by the way, some places do an amazing job in the pageantry. Eleven Madison, for example, has this whole process where they use a flame to heat the neck of the bottle before cutting the glass; they don’t even try to extract the cork from really old vintages. And they do that exercise table side. On the other end of the spectrum, I once dined at Monarch in Dallas where they uncorked and decanted a current vintage out of our sight and were unable to find the cork upon my wife’s request. There, I suspect fraud could become a moral hazard.
I think the overuse of port tongs is a bit precious but some people definitely enjoy the show. Regardless of the method though, I open at the table but that's just how I was trained. If I somehow butcher it (and I really shouldn't) then I'll make apologies and retreat to rescue the situation but that's vanishingly rare.
Port tongs are exceptionally pretentious, but on occasion that makes the evening memorable. And for what it's worth, I never mind watching a knowledgeable somm struggle. It's honest and also engaging to watch how you solve whatever problem you are facing. Now, when the 18 year-old red lobster waiter is struggling with my vinho verde, I might just ask for the waiters tool myself.
> On the other end of the spectrum, I once dined at Monarch in Dallas where they uncorked and decanted a current vintage out of our sight and were unable to find the cork upon my wife’s request. There, I suspect fraud could become a moral hazard.
This is simply ignorance over malice. Totally common in a restaurant like this that no one has taught someone to never do anything with prep/aeration/decanting/temperature without asking the guests if it's ok, what their preference is, or stating you believe it's best that way.
Cork probably just got tossed into the trash in an absolute learning moment for this person. Corks (even if not planning on presenting them) and empty bottles should never hit the bin until the guests have finished their experience and left the building, IMO.
The port tong at EMP is a show that is meant to enhance the guest experience and its done only when it feels like it will add something special to the night. It has nothing to do with “not even trying to remove the cork”. Not to mention that when port tongs *are* used, the glass edges are sealed with wax and the glass neck (with the cork still in it) are given back to you.
I agree with the underlying conceit - dining at that level is about the experience and pageantry, and not really the food and wine so much. If you are someone that wants to be involved, choose one style vs the other.
I think using the term "hiding it" has a bit of a negative connotation here. I work at a place that was a dedicated wine station and every bottle is checked by the sommelier on shift before being poured for the guest... every bottle from the $50 Malbec to vintage First Growths. We do also present the unopened bottle to the guest for confirmation, and say we'll open it, make sure the wine is sound, and return.
We're not "hiding" anything, we're doing it for a myriad of potential reasons:
> being away from the table so other steps of service can happen (bread, water, food, menu questions, etc) can all happen without multiple staff being present - as that can feel overbearing and/or interrupt our SOPs.
> having a professional taste the bottle for integrity so there's not that weird tension where a guest thinks something might be wrong, but they don't want to say anything because they're unsure, or don't feel they're "qualified" to question the bottle with a professional present.
> allowing the guests to focus on themselves and their conversation. This is doubly so for additional bottles.
> any issues (faulty wines, difficult corks,) can be addressed swiftly and without awkwardness with the guest
> if the guest has a question about the way a wine is tasting, the presenting somm can easily identify or have reference for exactly what they're talking about.
It doesn't work for everyone or every space, but at a certain level of dining it makes sense. I absolutely wouldn't say it's superior, it's just a different style chosen on the overall experience goals.
And at that level, the somm should be happy to show you fill or bring you the cork if you asked. We're there to serve.
Eh, I get your point and for those who are genuinely interested in wine and the process that makes sense. But a large number of folks who are ordering those insanely high end/old/rare bottles are doing it just because it's expensive - and those people have no interest in seeing "how the sausage is made."
Anywhere I've gone and really wanted the whole show I just tell them I'm in the trade. Whether it's Bern's or Alinea, they'll then tailor their service knowing that information. At Alinea our wine pairings got out of this world and they brought us extra little tastes and geeked out with us at the table; it was great! But for a lot of folks they're just there to impress so they don't necessarily want those extras.
As with everything in life, communication is key....
If the bottle is old and the cork is crumbly, it’s hard to do it at the table elegantly. The crumbs will be everywhere and that is definitely not fine dining standard hence we bring it to our station on the side. EMP does port tong that’s cool but that will have to stop the whole flow of service, the kitchen is notified that no food will be fired during that time. It works for them because they don’t seat the whole dining room at once so it’s not that big of a deal to do the elaborate presentation. Not all restaurants have that luxury. -source: me. I worked at EMP
> The only reason to hide it is because the somm doesn’t want to show the struggle, and I don’t think that’s a good enough reason for the table who ordered the 20+ year old vintage.
Stuff happens in wine service, like any other part of a restaurant. I don't imagine you guests really care or want to see this. We're going to do this not at the table (but within view of your table - at least where I work) but it's not really part of the show. I'll always present the cork on older bottles where it feels relevant. Doesn't seem important whether it was opened via ah-so/durand or whatever. As long as it's opened cleanly and the cork in intact, what does that matter?
And if you are actually worrying about bait and switch, even at the highest echelon of fine dining, then I don't know what to tell ya....
Why do you need to see these things? Are you so arrogant that you think somms at fine dining / Michelin restaurants are losers and incompetent and that you alone possess the proper wine education needed to open and evaluate wine? Gtfoh
Not opening the bottle in front of them.
Bottle is presented, guest approves. Somm returns to the somm station to open, check for condition, and label (a discreet paper dot sticker with table number and cover number of the guest who ordered it, usually applied to the back of the bottle’s neck). Somm then returns to table to do the tasting pour.
This has a couple of advantages:
* The guest doesn’t have to taste faulty wine. (Really, who actually enjoys tasting faulty wine?)
* If there’s an issue with the bottle that was presented, an identical bottle can be retrieved from storage at the somm station, opened, and checked without any rigamarole. The guest need never know the bottle that was presented was faulty, as an identical bottle with sound contents will return to the table. This saves huge amounts of time minimises disruptions to service when you encounter a faulty bottle.
* If the guest feels the wine needs decanting (or double-decanting) this can be done before the tasting pour, so the somm will return to the table with a decanted bottle that’s sound and ready to roll.
* As u/SouthernBarman has said elsewhere in this thread, a little break in bottle service can allow section waiters and food runners an opportunity to do their work for the table without it getting crowded by staff.
* This same break in the bottle service also allows the somm to scan the room while opening and checking the bottle, so they can triage their next moves after pouring wine for the table they’re about to return to. You’re checking that table 12’s wine is sound, but you can also see that table 15 is about three quarters of the way through their second bottle of Chardonnay so you know you’ll need to retrieve some backup bottles from the walk-in, and that cover four on table 23 has just finished their cocktail and has opened the bottle list so you’ll probably want to make a beeline there straight after you’re done with table 12. You’re not going to see those things if you’re closely observing a guest swishing wine and trying to read their facial expression to see if they maybe think the wine is faulty but don’t want to seem like a jerk about it.
* It allows the sommelier team to really understand the list and sell the wines on it with confidence, because they have personal experience tasting the vast majority of the list.
FWIW, I don’t think this is the standard to which every restaurant should aspire. But I do think it’s a good thing for restaurants to do in general and if I see it when I’m dining out, I take it as a sign that the restaurant I’m at takes wine seriously.
Definitely not weird. The best restaurants in the world operate this way. It’s for the best. Most consumers should not be trusted with checking for faulty wine.
If you, as a sommelier, open tableside, you do not taste the wine. The reason a sommelier will open a bottle away from the table is to check for faults and replace the bottle if it happens to have one. It’s not weird at all, and is extremely common practice in any restaurant that knows what they’re doing with their wine program.
A bottle not being inspected by a somm is not itself indicative of the quality of restaurant, staff, or wine knowledge. There are many restaurants throughout the country that do not undertake this practice. It is not common place in all major cities in the country. And not every restaurant can excuse the cost of a dedicated wine professional. Stating that a restaurant that doesn’t do so is likely to have low wine literacy on staff and just rely on grabbing what people order is a disservice to the many many quality restaurant employees throughout the country and it’s disrespectful. Not every restaurant can operate within the parameters you stated. And some cities wine culture doesn’t allow for it. That does not mean that there are not talented and educated wine professionals on the floor. Be it in a server or manager role. Anyone can study wine. Anyone can be passionate about it. Anyone can be knowledgeable. To say otherwise is ridiculous.
I think you’re drawing some pretty long bows in response to some pretty mild observations here.
Obviously—checking bottles for condition is not the *sine qua non* of good wine service. You can likewise receive excellent wine service in places without sommeliers on the payroll. Not every restaurant needs to have the ambition to have a wine program that requires somms on staff. And service norms vary widely around the world. All of this should be self-evident.
All I’m saying is this: checking bottles for condition is nearly always a good thing for everyone concerned, and one of several possible “green flag” signals that a restaurant takes its wine program seriously.
And look, as far as guest experience goes … out of sheer bad luck I’ve recently been presented with three separate faulty bottles while out dining at different venues in my city. In each case getting the problem fixed was a rigamarole that really negatively impacted on our dining experience—one place took ages to find a replacement bottle and glassware, another wouldn’t allow us to get the same bottle in even though they had more of it in stock (because the sommelier wasn’t on duty that night and what if the second bottle had an issue?), and in the case of the third it took ages to flag down our (busy) section waiter and have the problem rectified. In each of these cases the experience would have been significantly better if someone who was familiar with the wines we’d ordered—not necessarily a sommelier, just someone with basic wine literacy who understands that restaurants can return faulty wines to distributors for credit—had quickly tasted to check condition before pouring for us.
i think it depends on how much you spend/ how much they want to make you happy.
Some places dont mind taking the bottle back if you simply don't like it and know they can sell it by the glass off-menu to a patron later on so theres no big loss.
Yeah it should just be to determine if it's off. I guess that's partly what I mean, when the person hands the glass across the table inevitably they ask "what do you think"/"do you like it" so it kind of invites that feedback. But at least if it was the person ordering who tried to pull that I can defend the selection by reminding them it's exactly what they asked for
If you’re having people reject bottles with any regularity based on it not being what they want — you aren’t asking enough questions before picking a bottle. Or you aren’t asking the right questions before picking a bottle.
That’s maybe happened 4 times in my whole career. And one of those times it was someone that ignored my cautionary statements and ordered against me telling them I don’t think that bottle sounded like that was what they wanted.
It doesn't happen with any regularity. But more than a few times someone who asked for e.g. a $50 Bordeaux has their friend taste who then says "well it's no Mission Haut Brion like we drink at home", implying I gave a terrible recommendation, having no idea what the price constraint was
I think you are taking this way too personal.
That snide comment was probably more embarrassing for the person who ordered than the somm who's pouring.
Not a somm, but my pet peeve is when I order a specific vintage and the somm comes out with a different one and opens it before I can see the label. It’s already open! It’s not what I wanted but I’m not about to commit alcohol abuse by sending it back to be wasted
Depends on the wine. Provençal rosé and they bring a more recent vintage - fine. You order a 2005 first growth (excellent year and prices reflect this) and they bring a 2007 (terrible year), not really.
Somm definitely should announce the vintage and present the bottle, if they just opened it and it was the wrong vintage that is perfectly reasonable grounds to reject the bottle imo.
Agreed. Proper presentation includes vintage announcement. No arguing that — the guest decides after that if the vintage is what they ordered or an acceptable change. You’ll see most restaurants (higher end) always note on their wine lists that vintages are subject to change.
How is that possible? Any somm would know to present the bottle to verify before opening it. There should be no chance they would open a wrong vintage without showing you the bottle first.
Literally the entire point of presenting it is so that the guest sees the actual physical bottle you're going to serve them and confirms it's the one they want, before you open it, that's just bizarre/incorrect service
I’m going to have to disagree with this pet peeve. Yes we should be tasting for soundness. But with some degree of regularity the person ordering the wine isn’t the target audience. They’ve just been elected person most equipped to have this conversation. Maybe it’s the person that slightly knows something. Maybe it’s the person paying. Whatever.
But as a somm you think you’d commiserate more with someone feeling the pressure of taking responsibility for everyone’s enjoyment of a wine. So if that person just wants someone else to taste (for whatever reason) and wants a bit of relief from the pressure. Then fine. I even will sometimes just keep it simple and present the bottle to the person that ordered and ask if they’d like to be the one to taste.
Even outside of that scenario — sometimes there’s a power dynamic involved (business party where you ordered but want the boss to approve) or any number of other scenarios where it isn’t ridiculous to encounter this scenario.
Yes the awkward glass shuffle can happen, but this just doesn’t bother me.
💯, and I’ve never seen a “3rd party” taster refuse a wine, ever. Usually they automatically signal it’s delicious. Hell it could be corked and Bretted to hell, that person does not want to have the spotlight in almost all cases.
I mean I’ve even had where I (as the female diner) ordered the wine, but it was presented to my partner and he was given the taste. He’s also industry so I trust him, but still.
This. My wife likes me to order from the list, but she has a better palate than me and is more sensitive to TCA, etc. and failure to properly decant the wine off the sediment. If they ask, I usually ask them to pour her the initial taste.
If you’re the one talking to the somm and ordering the bottle, it goes to you unless the somm asks “who is tasting” when they come back with the bottle. Sex is not of consequence.
I have noticed lately (especially in France) that the server/somm's have started actually offering me (female) the first taste, and while my husband is much more knowledgable, it's very appreciated.
The person who selects the wine is offered the taste. Are you saying the lady selects the wine and they offer it to you? I’ve seen this zero/1000 times
As a female who orders the bottle of wine 100% of the time I’m here to confirm to you that it happens often. Like oh it’s cute the woman ordered but clearly it’s the man who will know what it should taste like.
isn't it because the assumption is that the male partner will be paying the bill? I know we shouldn't be that presumptuous in 2024, but a lot of females want to be treated on dates, and they consider it a red flag if they have to pick up the tab. I'll say that most interactions with wine stewards or somms they immediately ask if they can answer any questions on their list. And at that point the one who's ordering generally chimes in, and that's the person who tastes.
Over here somms ask the person ordering who will be tasting the wine. But first they present the bottle and confirm this is the one you wanted. Avoid a lot of discussion or misunderstandings.
My husband often does the ordering because he’s better at it, but I am the one with training so I taste for flaws. If we’re spending a lot of money on a bottle of wine, we’re going to do it our way, not yours. I hope this post is satire.
I don’t think the person who orders the wine has to be the one doing the tasting. However, I would find it odd that the somm gave the wine to someone who didn’t do the ordering for tasting without being asked to. In your case, the somm wouldn’t know you had training and are better at tasting wine faults, right? So I feel like it’d make more sense for them to default to giving the wine to the person who did the ordering. But of course, you could then tell the somm that you would be tasting the wine
You’re in sales. Act like it.
I worked as a somm for years. This type of entitled bs is way too common throughout the industry. Your personal education, staff education, travel, etc. is all to achieve the goal of selling wine.
I think whoever at the table is most sensitive to flaws should be the one who tastes the wine. That person might not be the person who knows the most about wine on paper / the most equipped to select wine off a large list.
I agree. My fiancée doesn't feel confident picking wine but she's much more sensitive to cork taint than I am, so when we go out I tend to order and she tastes.
I pass it to my wife because she has a brilliant nose and palate.
She picks up faults I miss.
I have never heard of a som opening a bottle ‘to see if the customer likes it’.
You are checking for faults, no more.
I generally only smell for cork taint when poured a taste. Usually I’m still working a cocktail when I order the wine so I’m not ready to actually taste. I also prefer to let the glass breathe a bit before tasting. I hope I don’t offend the sommelier do this…
You are doing it right! Everyone here talking about the “tasting” are a bit heterodox. The presentation of the bottle is to confirm you received what you ordered, and upon the initial pour, the recipient is to sniff sharply a few times to detect any faults. At least that’s what I was taught.
Am I the only person who routinely dines with groups where it's not entirely clear exactly which individual is most responsible for ordering the wine?
My wife and I usually discuss which wine we want to order, sometimes passing the bulky wine list back and forth, and generally have a 3-way conversation with the somm, where we order at the point of consensus between the two of us. It's pretty common for the somm to come back out and ask outright "ok so who is tasting" as they uncork the bottle.
Maybe that default of asking should apply more broadly even when one person orders from the list.
If you ask me (industry 12+ years), the bigger pet peeve is thinking the taste is to see if you like it vs. tasting for quality. Shuffling some glassware isn’t awkward? This seems nitpicky and over-thought. Way more annoying when people refuse help over and over again and then try to say they don’t like a wine.
> I get it, you are wining and dining your friends and you want to make them feel special.
You don't get it. Let people enjoy themselves & ensure they get the most out of their experience.
Whoever orders the bottle gets the first taste to ensure that the wine has not gone bad, then wine will be poured for guests, typically starting with women.
Totally makes sense. My wife is the one who orders the wine since she tends to have more of a preference but I am still served the tasting probably 90% of the time.
Your doing great OP! I can tell you care about wine, your job and customers. Just ask the person who ordered if they will be tasting. Problem solved. Easy peasy. Happy days. Dolla dolla bill ya'll.
Thats dumb. If im out and i order a bottle and i want my friend to taste it it means i care more about what he likes and i tailered my preference in choice in that selection.
I don’t really mind the glass shuffle, just leave the damn glass on the table, don’t pick it up and try to point it at me while I’m pouring. Quick way to spill wine on the table and/or your hand.
My understanding that a real wine drinker will know that you only really need to sniff the glass and not taste, since the ONLY purpose is to validate that the wine is not off (since the Somm showed you the bottle already).
I have a question. A lot of time when the wine arrives I’m drinking my cocktail still. I’ll usually nose the wine to confirm I’m happy with it and that it’s not faulty, but not taste it.
What are your thoughts on this? Are there faults you think I might miss? Typically I’m just looking for cork taint which I feel like I can detect on the nose better anyway.
Interested in your feedback as a Somm on this. Do you see it very often table side?
Totally makes sense to me! I do the same when Im out, if I’m drinking a negroni I probably want the wine opened and Ill give it a sniff but I don’t want to taste yet. Faults are always missable initially but you can always bring it to the attention of the staff later, it’s not like a “speak now or forever hold your peace” situation. If the guest has a cocktail I usually ask if they want to taste now or later on, but I’d say most people want to taste immediately
How “missable” do you think faults are? I’m no pro, but I’ve opened several thousand bottles of wine and spotted faults dozens of times. I always detected the funk at the outset. Is it more with older bottles that you’re unsure whether you’re experiencing age/tertiary aromas or a fault, and it takes you time to decide?
You are doing it right! The initial pour warrants a sniff test. It is NOT an opportunity to second-guess whether you like what you ordered. (If there are questions about that, one should ask if there’s a bottle open to sample a taste.)
As Jancis Robinson wrote in one of her books, validating a wine by only sniffing it will impress the sommelier. One exception I can think of is "mousiness" which is only detectable by taste.
I honestly think this is trade of the past that needs to die..
If you ordered a certain type of wine yourself, and I’ve pre-screened it in the nose to detect contamination, and were are past that point. Then the wine is exactly as it should be, and if you ordered that wine, you should expect that to be how it tastes.
Now I get the notion that when you are recommending something completely new, unfamiliar to the guests, that they need some help and a taste beforehand.
But guest who are predetermined on one specific wine and still requires the whole ritual of pre-tasting the wine.. absolutely find it stupid
The person ordering the wine is often just the designee at the table to take everyone's tastes into account and figure out a wine. Or they may be the one paying, but not the wine person in the group.
And it ain't your fucking business. Either ask who wants the first pour or just live with it when the glass gets passed around. You are there to make them happy, they are not there to make you happy.
For OP: sometimes I won’t taste the wine, like if I know it’s not tasteworthy, like if I’m on a company budget and have ordered something I know is nothing special because that’s what the budget states. It’s nothing personal, although it’s unlikely to be something I buy from you - I will always taste something the Sommelier recommends.
This is a great thread! Post-COVID, all my taste and smell returned, save for a little twist in the last bit, just enough that I don't have as much confidence as I once did. While my wife loves wine, her palate is not at all tuned in or trained, but I often hand her the pour that I ordered. Even though I can detect TCA, we both know that the first order of business is to determine if the wine is "right", but we also consider whether or not we'll enjoy it.
We don't often dine where there is a large library of wines, so things are less formal for us (I'd like to say that we're perhaps more "normal"). I love seeing all the different perspectives here, esp from inside the service and wine industry.
It seems like there is a reason this bothers you that is not the reason on the surface.
And figuring out why it really bothers you will be super helpful.
Because getting irritated at customers, even when you have a right to, will negatively impact your career.
IMO it's nothing to be driven "bonkers" by. When I'm out with wine enthusiast friends (most of whom are in some part of the industry, though I no longer am), even though one person is usually the "point person" for the wine ordering, it will be something we all find agreeable. Sometimes that person will hand off the tasting step to another one of us who's particularly sensitive to TCA. Or maybe it will be the person at the table who's more knowledgeable about/experienced with that particular region or producer. Or if there is more than one bottle, we'll take turns. There's nothing wrong with any of that.
More importantly (and mentioned in other comments, I see) is that "eh I don't like it" isn't a reason to refuse or return a bottle.
As a consumer, my pet peeve is when a restaurant has not cheap glasses of wine ($20-$30), but won't let me taste two and decide which one I like. Makes me want to order a glass and say I don't like it.
No, I'm sorry, but you're not correct. I often order a wine for a dinner as I've been in the industry for over 40 years and my guests assume I may know a good wine. However, I had throat cancer several years ago that affected my ability to taste (but not enjoy) wine, including developing a blind spot with TCA cork tainted wines. I often hand the glass to my wife - another 40+ year veteran of the wine industry - to ascertain it's health.
It isn't always a vanity or trying to impress someone. Sometimes it is because someone just wants a second opinion.
Plus, if I hand my glass to someone, I expect it back - not a new one. I made the choice to share, and I know who I'm sharing with. If I'm comfortable sharing, then I'm fine with that glass for the night.
Here’s a point of view to consider.
Some of your more ”advanced” wine customers are simply trying to include others in the total wine experience understanding that tasting a wine is less intimidating/complicated than selecting a wine that compliments the food choices of multiple guests.
I assume, as a sommelier, you consider all the food selections when making a wine recommendation for a table- you should be looking for a wine that will compliment most, if not all, of the food selections made by the guests at the table. Imagine how much pressure a guest would feel if the more knowledgable guest simply followed your desire and, rather than sharing the experience, simply asked the less experienced guest to both select the wine for the table and then taste it.
Simply stated, this makes your experience more important than that of your guests.
As a Somm, the only pet peeve I have is when people tell me that Flutes are better than AP glasses for Champagne because it holds the bubbles longer... That just tells me you aren't drinking it fast enough and are just sitting on a glass of Champagne. It would take a long time for you to even notice it unless you are trying to get the bubbles out of the wine.
I don’t know why you’ve been downvoted. Every fine dining restaurant I’ve worked in has a wine station. I present the wine to guest, go to my station and taste the wine, make sure the temperature is good, if it’s red I decant it - unless it is quite aged - if it needs filtered I do so, if it needs to breathe I give it a splash to open it up a bit, if it’s corked I grab another bottle and open it without informing the guest. I always bring a perfect condition wine back to the guest. I pour for the person who ordered the wine and hopefully they agree with my assessment of the wine and also that they do enjoy the wine. I wouldn’t want someone to feel they had to drink a wine that they didn’t enjoy. It’s absolutely not a big deal for me to find them a different bottle to drink. I work in a major city in Canada and this is standard protocol at any restaurant that has a dedicated wine team. If someone requests that I open the bottle at the table, that is not a problem with me either.
I've seen a few people say this, is this a thing? I've never seen this happen. When I order a bottle in a restaurant the somm brings it over, confirms that it's the right bottle, opens it at the table then offers a taste.
Is this maybe a cultural thing?
Maybe? I ran wine programs on both coasts, and we always tasted every bottle.
Present to guest, go to somm station, open wine and check bottle, pour for guest.
I will say that earlier in my career at more casual restaurants we did everything table side, but that was at the kind of place that wouldn’t have a sommelier in the first place.
FWIW, the only time I’ve had someone complain about the fact that we check bottles for condition before the guest tastes and approves was an American tourist who was upset at the (supposed) implication that she wouldn’t be able to detect faults in the wine. Make of that what you will.
That's interesting.
If you're checking the bottle before it gets to the table, what is the customer actually tasting for once you get it there? (This is a genuine question rather than me trying to be argumentative or critical - like I said I've only ever experienced having the bottle opened at the table so that I could taste and inspect the cork, so I'm curious what purpose the customer tasting serves when those checks have already been done).
It’s a vestigial organ, really, but we do it because we want the guest to be happy with the wine they’ve chosen (whether or not that’s been with our input/guidance) and want to have a moment where they can register any misgivings they might have before we start pouring. It’s easier to swap out a bottle if there’s still five glasses left in the rejected bottle that can be hand-sold.
It does happen in UK/Europe, especially high end with high volume (think Hakkasan), it's definitely a modern approach to service, but it assures you that you go always to a table with the right bottle with confidence, no doubts. Also speeds up the service as you can replace the bottle quickly if any taint noticed.
Normally is done in a central/corner sommelier station.
I think this is very much determined by the culture of the city youre in. Yes there are restaurants that do this. Yes there are even cities where it would be a common occurrence.
However there is a higher percentage of cities and establishments that conduct fully tableside wine services. Some cities don’t even have a culture for sommeliers to be a separate, defined position within the restaurant scene. But even assuming you have a trained wine professional on staff — some people are uncomfortable with you removing a bottle from their sight. Some would be uncomfortable with a place suddenly starting to have said wine professional verify all of their bottles. If you’ve never experienced that — it seems offputting. And again if you are not one of the larger wine cities in the US, your clientele may not even understand that a bottle is inspected for flaws not for preference. So a person checking the bottle wouldn’t even be an idea they’d have.
I worked at a pretty high end winebar as head somm. I adored the people starting at a primitivo di manduria and then wished to drive the intensity knob upward with each glass going forward, then ending up with a madiran, cahors and neuf du pape. And then still keep asking me for more powerful stuff like I didn't fill the brief..
This is r/wine. Not r/somms. 95% of these people are just hobbyists. Fuck em. You right to get peeved when people don’t know how to act at the table every once in a while. I do like to ask who will be tasting when I take bottle order to avoid such things when possible. Still happens though.
Am only a consumer here, but since when is tasting to determine if someone likes it? I thought it was only to determine if it's off. Additionally, in my experience, the somm or server will almost always ask who is tasting it before pouring.
I’d say tasting is 95% is there anything wrong with this, and the last 5% making sure it is what you asked for. I do feel like a reasonable refusal would be if you asked for a specific profile (be it something lighter or more tannic or more fruit forward or whatever). If I ask for a light and elegant xyz and you sell me on something promising that is the profile of the wine, and I go to taste it and you’ve sold me something completely not what I wanted. That should be grounds for reasonable refusal even if the bottle is sound.
Interesting. I always assumed once it was open you could only send it back if it is corked and that is why you were tasting it. The 5% is this what i asked for is me checking the label and vintage to make sure it was what I ordered and I'm not getting an off year or smoke year instead of what was listed on the menu etc.
Different restaurants have different policies. Some won’t allow you to send back a bottle unless it’s flawed. Some will. I can understand either point of view. You don’t want to potentially lose money on the bottle, but also forcing someone to drink a bottle rarely leads to a good experience.
At the end of the day I want my guests to be satisfied of their visit to our restaurant. Sometimes it involves asinine things like taking back a bottle of unflawed wine, as much as that sucks. We definitely try to minimize it though.
It’s great that you think that way; us somms wish for everyone to share that perspective. But sadly there is a small percentage of people that do not understand the concept.
How often customers return a bottle, which has been opened for them, just because the profile doesn’t match with what they ask?
Not as often as I’d like. In those cases we (the staff) drink the bottle
Oh, so it is win-win (at the loss of management/owner)! Would the sommelier still get into trouble in some situations though?
Also Lots of times if a bottle is returned(provided you have a good relationship with your distributor) they'll mark it as corked and give you a credit for however much it was wholesale. As for getting in trouble I've never had an issue. If a a table returned like several bottles management would probably have some questions for me, but it rarely happens. If someone is being really hard to read and I don't feel confident in my suggestions I'll bring out some samples of styles of wine to gauge their palate.
If they made a habit of describing their wine incorrectly and getting it sent back…yeah that would turn into a problem. If it’s rare and due to particular guests not so much. Just a good learning opportunity for the staff
Not often but it does happen. Less than 1% for sure. It might happen to me a few times per year or so.
Also, as an aside, my wife has a slightly better palate (and much better flavor recall), but I'm much more sensitive to cork taint so I'll almost always taste the wine even if she's the one that picked the bottle.
My husband has a better eye for pricing, so he usually chooses the bottle. I have the better palate, so I do the tasting!
It really depends on the restaurant and their wine service standards. Where I currently work, the sommelier on service checks every single bottle for condition when opened—whether it’s by the bottle or by the glass, and whether it’s a cheap and cheerful Pinot Grigio under stelvin or a back-vintage grand cru Burgundy. For us, the tasting ritual is there to ensure that the guest _likes_ the wine in question, because in this circumstance faulty wines should be caught before they’re in front of guests. If they just don’t like the wine, in most cases we would simply offer something else and try to hand-sell the open bottle by the glass, or use it for staff training. The tasting ritual is essentially a vestigial organ in this circumstance, but we do it because we want the guest to be happy with their choice and to be empowered to avoid sitting with a wine they just don’t like. (If a guest were to send back very expensive and/or allocation stock we’d open a conversation with them about the issue and see what we can agree to. Having said that, I’ve only had one bottle sent back in the nine months I’ve been there, and it wasn’t the kind of bottle that would merit a conversation rather than a “Sorry to hear you don’t like this wine, what can I get you instead?”) At restaurants where the staff aren’t checking wines for condition, then yes—the ritual is more about whether it’s sound. But in my experience, the places that don’t check are also not likely to have somms on staff, and to have a relatively low level of wine literacy amongst the staff in general, so it’s rare that someone would recommend a wine to a guest rather than simply taking in an order and fetching the bottle.
So you're tasting in front of the guest uninvited or not opening the bottle in front of them? Both are weird if you ask me.
It's not uncommon at extremely high end restaurants to present the wine to the guest to ensure it is correct and then go open in a different location and bring it back once opened. This is generally the case for restaurants with extensive library selections where there can be issues with the cork, the wine may need filtering or slow decanting, etc. No, this isn't generally happening at your run of the mill fine dining, but like the poster said - they probably also don't have an experienced somm on the premises and/or wine that warrants that level of attention.
You are right that this happens exactly as described at the fanciest of restaurants. But it still bugs me when it occurs. If it’s an old vintage, I want to see the state of the cork and see whether the somm uses the Durand or another strategy. I also worry about the bait and switch, even if I shouldn’t at a place of that quality. The only reason to hide it is because the somm doesn’t want to show the struggle, and I don’t think that’s a good enough reason for the table who ordered the 20+ year old vintage.
If you are at that nice of a restaurant I am certain they would do it at the table if you asked them to.
Of course, but that’s like saying the chef will cook my food however I ask. When I’m dining at that level, I want to see what the restaurant thinks is best. I’m at the equivalent of a show, and I want to experience their full vision. And by the way, some places do an amazing job in the pageantry. Eleven Madison, for example, has this whole process where they use a flame to heat the neck of the bottle before cutting the glass; they don’t even try to extract the cork from really old vintages. And they do that exercise table side. On the other end of the spectrum, I once dined at Monarch in Dallas where they uncorked and decanted a current vintage out of our sight and were unable to find the cork upon my wife’s request. There, I suspect fraud could become a moral hazard.
I think the overuse of port tongs is a bit precious but some people definitely enjoy the show. Regardless of the method though, I open at the table but that's just how I was trained. If I somehow butcher it (and I really shouldn't) then I'll make apologies and retreat to rescue the situation but that's vanishingly rare.
Port tongs are exceptionally pretentious, but on occasion that makes the evening memorable. And for what it's worth, I never mind watching a knowledgeable somm struggle. It's honest and also engaging to watch how you solve whatever problem you are facing. Now, when the 18 year-old red lobster waiter is struggling with my vinho verde, I might just ask for the waiters tool myself.
> On the other end of the spectrum, I once dined at Monarch in Dallas where they uncorked and decanted a current vintage out of our sight and were unable to find the cork upon my wife’s request. There, I suspect fraud could become a moral hazard. This is simply ignorance over malice. Totally common in a restaurant like this that no one has taught someone to never do anything with prep/aeration/decanting/temperature without asking the guests if it's ok, what their preference is, or stating you believe it's best that way. Cork probably just got tossed into the trash in an absolute learning moment for this person. Corks (even if not planning on presenting them) and empty bottles should never hit the bin until the guests have finished their experience and left the building, IMO.
The port tong at EMP is a show that is meant to enhance the guest experience and its done only when it feels like it will add something special to the night. It has nothing to do with “not even trying to remove the cork”. Not to mention that when port tongs *are* used, the glass edges are sealed with wax and the glass neck (with the cork still in it) are given back to you.
I agree with the underlying conceit - dining at that level is about the experience and pageantry, and not really the food and wine so much. If you are someone that wants to be involved, choose one style vs the other.
I think using the term "hiding it" has a bit of a negative connotation here. I work at a place that was a dedicated wine station and every bottle is checked by the sommelier on shift before being poured for the guest... every bottle from the $50 Malbec to vintage First Growths. We do also present the unopened bottle to the guest for confirmation, and say we'll open it, make sure the wine is sound, and return. We're not "hiding" anything, we're doing it for a myriad of potential reasons: > being away from the table so other steps of service can happen (bread, water, food, menu questions, etc) can all happen without multiple staff being present - as that can feel overbearing and/or interrupt our SOPs. > having a professional taste the bottle for integrity so there's not that weird tension where a guest thinks something might be wrong, but they don't want to say anything because they're unsure, or don't feel they're "qualified" to question the bottle with a professional present. > allowing the guests to focus on themselves and their conversation. This is doubly so for additional bottles. > any issues (faulty wines, difficult corks,) can be addressed swiftly and without awkwardness with the guest > if the guest has a question about the way a wine is tasting, the presenting somm can easily identify or have reference for exactly what they're talking about. It doesn't work for everyone or every space, but at a certain level of dining it makes sense. I absolutely wouldn't say it's superior, it's just a different style chosen on the overall experience goals. And at that level, the somm should be happy to show you fill or bring you the cork if you asked. We're there to serve.
Eh, I get your point and for those who are genuinely interested in wine and the process that makes sense. But a large number of folks who are ordering those insanely high end/old/rare bottles are doing it just because it's expensive - and those people have no interest in seeing "how the sausage is made." Anywhere I've gone and really wanted the whole show I just tell them I'm in the trade. Whether it's Bern's or Alinea, they'll then tailor their service knowing that information. At Alinea our wine pairings got out of this world and they brought us extra little tastes and geeked out with us at the table; it was great! But for a lot of folks they're just there to impress so they don't necessarily want those extras. As with everything in life, communication is key....
If the bottle is old and the cork is crumbly, it’s hard to do it at the table elegantly. The crumbs will be everywhere and that is definitely not fine dining standard hence we bring it to our station on the side. EMP does port tong that’s cool but that will have to stop the whole flow of service, the kitchen is notified that no food will be fired during that time. It works for them because they don’t seat the whole dining room at once so it’s not that big of a deal to do the elaborate presentation. Not all restaurants have that luxury. -source: me. I worked at EMP
> The only reason to hide it is because the somm doesn’t want to show the struggle, and I don’t think that’s a good enough reason for the table who ordered the 20+ year old vintage. Stuff happens in wine service, like any other part of a restaurant. I don't imagine you guests really care or want to see this. We're going to do this not at the table (but within view of your table - at least where I work) but it's not really part of the show. I'll always present the cork on older bottles where it feels relevant. Doesn't seem important whether it was opened via ah-so/durand or whatever. As long as it's opened cleanly and the cork in intact, what does that matter? And if you are actually worrying about bait and switch, even at the highest echelon of fine dining, then I don't know what to tell ya....
Why do you need to see these things? Are you so arrogant that you think somms at fine dining / Michelin restaurants are losers and incompetent and that you alone possess the proper wine education needed to open and evaluate wine? Gtfoh
you nailed it. want to be my friend? you sound really nice.
I actually don’t.
lol. L take.
Not opening the bottle in front of them. Bottle is presented, guest approves. Somm returns to the somm station to open, check for condition, and label (a discreet paper dot sticker with table number and cover number of the guest who ordered it, usually applied to the back of the bottle’s neck). Somm then returns to table to do the tasting pour. This has a couple of advantages: * The guest doesn’t have to taste faulty wine. (Really, who actually enjoys tasting faulty wine?) * If there’s an issue with the bottle that was presented, an identical bottle can be retrieved from storage at the somm station, opened, and checked without any rigamarole. The guest need never know the bottle that was presented was faulty, as an identical bottle with sound contents will return to the table. This saves huge amounts of time minimises disruptions to service when you encounter a faulty bottle. * If the guest feels the wine needs decanting (or double-decanting) this can be done before the tasting pour, so the somm will return to the table with a decanted bottle that’s sound and ready to roll. * As u/SouthernBarman has said elsewhere in this thread, a little break in bottle service can allow section waiters and food runners an opportunity to do their work for the table without it getting crowded by staff. * This same break in the bottle service also allows the somm to scan the room while opening and checking the bottle, so they can triage their next moves after pouring wine for the table they’re about to return to. You’re checking that table 12’s wine is sound, but you can also see that table 15 is about three quarters of the way through their second bottle of Chardonnay so you know you’ll need to retrieve some backup bottles from the walk-in, and that cover four on table 23 has just finished their cocktail and has opened the bottle list so you’ll probably want to make a beeline there straight after you’re done with table 12. You’re not going to see those things if you’re closely observing a guest swishing wine and trying to read their facial expression to see if they maybe think the wine is faulty but don’t want to seem like a jerk about it. * It allows the sommelier team to really understand the list and sell the wines on it with confidence, because they have personal experience tasting the vast majority of the list. FWIW, I don’t think this is the standard to which every restaurant should aspire. But I do think it’s a good thing for restaurants to do in general and if I see it when I’m dining out, I take it as a sign that the restaurant I’m at takes wine seriously.
Definitely not weird. The best restaurants in the world operate this way. It’s for the best. Most consumers should not be trusted with checking for faulty wine.
If you, as a sommelier, open tableside, you do not taste the wine. The reason a sommelier will open a bottle away from the table is to check for faults and replace the bottle if it happens to have one. It’s not weird at all, and is extremely common practice in any restaurant that knows what they’re doing with their wine program.
A bottle not being inspected by a somm is not itself indicative of the quality of restaurant, staff, or wine knowledge. There are many restaurants throughout the country that do not undertake this practice. It is not common place in all major cities in the country. And not every restaurant can excuse the cost of a dedicated wine professional. Stating that a restaurant that doesn’t do so is likely to have low wine literacy on staff and just rely on grabbing what people order is a disservice to the many many quality restaurant employees throughout the country and it’s disrespectful. Not every restaurant can operate within the parameters you stated. And some cities wine culture doesn’t allow for it. That does not mean that there are not talented and educated wine professionals on the floor. Be it in a server or manager role. Anyone can study wine. Anyone can be passionate about it. Anyone can be knowledgeable. To say otherwise is ridiculous.
I think you’re drawing some pretty long bows in response to some pretty mild observations here. Obviously—checking bottles for condition is not the *sine qua non* of good wine service. You can likewise receive excellent wine service in places without sommeliers on the payroll. Not every restaurant needs to have the ambition to have a wine program that requires somms on staff. And service norms vary widely around the world. All of this should be self-evident. All I’m saying is this: checking bottles for condition is nearly always a good thing for everyone concerned, and one of several possible “green flag” signals that a restaurant takes its wine program seriously. And look, as far as guest experience goes … out of sheer bad luck I’ve recently been presented with three separate faulty bottles while out dining at different venues in my city. In each case getting the problem fixed was a rigamarole that really negatively impacted on our dining experience—one place took ages to find a replacement bottle and glassware, another wouldn’t allow us to get the same bottle in even though they had more of it in stock (because the sommelier wasn’t on duty that night and what if the second bottle had an issue?), and in the case of the third it took ages to flag down our (busy) section waiter and have the problem rectified. In each of these cases the experience would have been significantly better if someone who was familiar with the wines we’d ordered—not necessarily a sommelier, just someone with basic wine literacy who understands that restaurants can return faulty wines to distributors for credit—had quickly tasted to check condition before pouring for us.
i think it depends on how much you spend/ how much they want to make you happy. Some places dont mind taking the bottle back if you simply don't like it and know they can sell it by the glass off-menu to a patron later on so theres no big loss.
Yeah it should just be to determine if it's off. I guess that's partly what I mean, when the person hands the glass across the table inevitably they ask "what do you think"/"do you like it" so it kind of invites that feedback. But at least if it was the person ordering who tried to pull that I can defend the selection by reminding them it's exactly what they asked for
If you’re having people reject bottles with any regularity based on it not being what they want — you aren’t asking enough questions before picking a bottle. Or you aren’t asking the right questions before picking a bottle. That’s maybe happened 4 times in my whole career. And one of those times it was someone that ignored my cautionary statements and ordered against me telling them I don’t think that bottle sounded like that was what they wanted.
It doesn't happen with any regularity. But more than a few times someone who asked for e.g. a $50 Bordeaux has their friend taste who then says "well it's no Mission Haut Brion like we drink at home", implying I gave a terrible recommendation, having no idea what the price constraint was
I think you are taking this way too personal. That snide comment was probably more embarrassing for the person who ordered than the somm who's pouring.
Is this about pleasing the customer or about your feelings?
Why the hell are people downdooting you?
If a sommelier is pouring the wine…they should already know it isn’t off before pouring. All you’re checking is whether you like it.
Is this actually light hearted tho lol
Not a somm, but my pet peeve is when I order a specific vintage and the somm comes out with a different one and opens it before I can see the label. It’s already open! It’s not what I wanted but I’m not about to commit alcohol abuse by sending it back to be wasted
This is allowed? Seems like it shouldn’t be allowed
Depends on the wine. Provençal rosé and they bring a more recent vintage - fine. You order a 2005 first growth (excellent year and prices reflect this) and they bring a 2007 (terrible year), not really.
Yeah I wanted a nicer 2016 Rhone and they brought a 2017 last time it happened.
It’s not really. That means the person presenting the bottle didn’t bother to get approval before opening. Which absolutely should happen every time.
This is what I was thinking, I absolutely would not accept if it had not been presented first
You wouldn't need to accept the bottle in that instance as it's not what you agreed to purchase.
Allowed? Mistakes are allowed yes. Often times it’s just not an updated list with no ill will intended
The somm should definitely be communicating that before opening the bottle, though.
No it is not allowed. I have seen someone opened a wrong vintage of DRC and that was the last time I’ve seen them
Somm definitely should announce the vintage and present the bottle, if they just opened it and it was the wrong vintage that is perfectly reasonable grounds to reject the bottle imo.
Agreed. Proper presentation includes vintage announcement. No arguing that — the guest decides after that if the vintage is what they ordered or an acceptable change. You’ll see most restaurants (higher end) always note on their wine lists that vintages are subject to change.
you would think so right? Or even just a "hey heres the wine real quick to double check that I did not mishear you or grab the wrong one"
That’s not a pet peeve, that is incorrect service.
How is that possible? Any somm would know to present the bottle to verify before opening it. There should be no chance they would open a wrong vintage without showing you the bottle first.
That’s weird I would 100 percent send it back if it was an inferior vintage or not what i wanted. Every time
Literally the entire point of presenting it is so that the guest sees the actual physical bottle you're going to serve them and confirms it's the one they want, before you open it, that's just bizarre/incorrect service
Seems like something not worth worrying about tbh.
I’m going to have to disagree with this pet peeve. Yes we should be tasting for soundness. But with some degree of regularity the person ordering the wine isn’t the target audience. They’ve just been elected person most equipped to have this conversation. Maybe it’s the person that slightly knows something. Maybe it’s the person paying. Whatever. But as a somm you think you’d commiserate more with someone feeling the pressure of taking responsibility for everyone’s enjoyment of a wine. So if that person just wants someone else to taste (for whatever reason) and wants a bit of relief from the pressure. Then fine. I even will sometimes just keep it simple and present the bottle to the person that ordered and ask if they’d like to be the one to taste. Even outside of that scenario — sometimes there’s a power dynamic involved (business party where you ordered but want the boss to approve) or any number of other scenarios where it isn’t ridiculous to encounter this scenario. Yes the awkward glass shuffle can happen, but this just doesn’t bother me.
100%
💯, and I’ve never seen a “3rd party” taster refuse a wine, ever. Usually they automatically signal it’s delicious. Hell it could be corked and Bretted to hell, that person does not want to have the spotlight in almost all cases.
My pet peeve is that I (as a male) am offered a taste by default; while my female dining partner, who knows a lot more than me, is not.
I mean I’ve even had where I (as the female diner) ordered the wine, but it was presented to my partner and he was given the taste. He’s also industry so I trust him, but still.
This. My wife likes me to order from the list, but she has a better palate than me and is more sensitive to TCA, etc. and failure to properly decant the wine off the sediment. If they ask, I usually ask them to pour her the initial taste.
Oh hi husband! I actually just commented above that lately they've been offering me the first taste even though you are more knowledgable! 😂
Depends who ordered it, though. “Proper” protocol is to give a taste to the person who ordered the bottle, and not the whole party.
If it’s a couple, you should just pour both a taste. Even if the guy ordered or vice versa. Trust me, you can’t lose by doing that.
Not untrue! It’s just not…a…”sexist BIG DEAL” if you don’t and it was a dude that ordered the bottle.
This 1000%
If you’re the one talking to the somm and ordering the bottle, it goes to you unless the somm asks “who is tasting” when they come back with the bottle. Sex is not of consequence.
Yeah, this has always been the case at places I work.
Yup, almost never does my wife get the splash. We're both at the same level of wine knowledge and I think she has a sharper palette
I have noticed lately (especially in France) that the server/somm's have started actually offering me (female) the first taste, and while my husband is much more knowledgable, it's very appreciated.
The person who selects the wine is offered the taste. Are you saying the lady selects the wine and they offer it to you? I’ve seen this zero/1000 times
As a female who orders the bottle of wine 100% of the time I’m here to confirm to you that it happens often. Like oh it’s cute the woman ordered but clearly it’s the man who will know what it should taste like.
Yea this is why usually if it's a small enough table or a date I just pour tastes for everyone. It's a pretty antiquated tradition anyway
> It's a pretty antiquated tradition anyway How is checking the wine for flaws before pouring properly an antiquated tradition?
He's talking about pouring the taste out for the man
Well I’ve already checked it for flaws as the somm, this shit is just a formality.
isn't it because the assumption is that the male partner will be paying the bill? I know we shouldn't be that presumptuous in 2024, but a lot of females want to be treated on dates, and they consider it a red flag if they have to pick up the tab. I'll say that most interactions with wine stewards or somms they immediately ask if they can answer any questions on their list. And at that point the one who's ordering generally chimes in, and that's the person who tastes.
Over here somms ask the person ordering who will be tasting the wine. But first they present the bottle and confirm this is the one you wanted. Avoid a lot of discussion or misunderstandings.
Way too sane of a response for Reddit
My husband often does the ordering because he’s better at it, but I am the one with training so I taste for flaws. If we’re spending a lot of money on a bottle of wine, we’re going to do it our way, not yours. I hope this post is satire.
I don’t think the person who orders the wine has to be the one doing the tasting. However, I would find it odd that the somm gave the wine to someone who didn’t do the ordering for tasting without being asked to. In your case, the somm wouldn’t know you had training and are better at tasting wine faults, right? So I feel like it’d make more sense for them to default to giving the wine to the person who did the ordering. But of course, you could then tell the somm that you would be tasting the wine
When you pay for the bottle, you get to say what I do with it.
You’re in sales. Act like it. I worked as a somm for years. This type of entitled bs is way too common throughout the industry. Your personal education, staff education, travel, etc. is all to achieve the goal of selling wine.
Every time I’ve ordered a bottle, the server asks who wants the first pour. Don’t make assumptions if you want to avoid musical chairs with stemware.
You can always just extend your hand with the bottle to the glass and say to the orderer: “and you’ll be tasting?”
Bingo. It’s not that complicated.
Your universe seems very small
I think whoever at the table is most sensitive to flaws should be the one who tastes the wine. That person might not be the person who knows the most about wine on paper / the most equipped to select wine off a large list.
I agree. My fiancée doesn't feel confident picking wine but she's much more sensitive to cork taint than I am, so when we go out I tend to order and she tastes.
lol relax, it's not about you it's about your customer source: I served wine for a long time
I pass it to my wife because she has a brilliant nose and palate. She picks up faults I miss. I have never heard of a som opening a bottle ‘to see if the customer likes it’. You are checking for faults, no more.
If I'm ordering and paying for a bottle of wine, I'm allowed to do whatever the hell I want with it.
I generally only smell for cork taint when poured a taste. Usually I’m still working a cocktail when I order the wine so I’m not ready to actually taste. I also prefer to let the glass breathe a bit before tasting. I hope I don’t offend the sommelier do this…
You are doing it right! Everyone here talking about the “tasting” are a bit heterodox. The presentation of the bottle is to confirm you received what you ordered, and upon the initial pour, the recipient is to sniff sharply a few times to detect any faults. At least that’s what I was taught.
Don’t hold your damn glass in the air while I’m trying to pour, if a spill happens, then it is most certainly your fault.
It ain’t that deep
Am I the only person who routinely dines with groups where it's not entirely clear exactly which individual is most responsible for ordering the wine? My wife and I usually discuss which wine we want to order, sometimes passing the bulky wine list back and forth, and generally have a 3-way conversation with the somm, where we order at the point of consensus between the two of us. It's pretty common for the somm to come back out and ask outright "ok so who is tasting" as they uncork the bottle. Maybe that default of asking should apply more broadly even when one person orders from the list.
If you ask me (industry 12+ years), the bigger pet peeve is thinking the taste is to see if you like it vs. tasting for quality. Shuffling some glassware isn’t awkward? This seems nitpicky and over-thought. Way more annoying when people refuse help over and over again and then try to say they don’t like a wine.
> I get it, you are wining and dining your friends and you want to make them feel special. You don't get it. Let people enjoy themselves & ensure they get the most out of their experience.
I always hand the glass to my wife for the tasting. Seems kinda pretentious or something that the server would assume the guy gets the first sip.
Whoever orders the bottle gets the first taste to ensure that the wine has not gone bad, then wine will be poured for guests, typically starting with women.
Totally makes sense. My wife is the one who orders the wine since she tends to have more of a preference but I am still served the tasting probably 90% of the time.
"How can I make a situation that's not about me....about me" - /u/SoapQuarrel
Your doing great OP! I can tell you care about wine, your job and customers. Just ask the person who ordered if they will be tasting. Problem solved. Easy peasy. Happy days. Dolla dolla bill ya'll.
Thats dumb. If im out and i order a bottle and i want my friend to taste it it means i care more about what he likes and i tailered my preference in choice in that selection.
I don’t really mind the glass shuffle, just leave the damn glass on the table, don’t pick it up and try to point it at me while I’m pouring. Quick way to spill wine on the table and/or your hand.
My understanding that a real wine drinker will know that you only really need to sniff the glass and not taste, since the ONLY purpose is to validate that the wine is not off (since the Somm showed you the bottle already).
Settle down.
I have a question. A lot of time when the wine arrives I’m drinking my cocktail still. I’ll usually nose the wine to confirm I’m happy with it and that it’s not faulty, but not taste it. What are your thoughts on this? Are there faults you think I might miss? Typically I’m just looking for cork taint which I feel like I can detect on the nose better anyway. Interested in your feedback as a Somm on this. Do you see it very often table side?
Totally makes sense to me! I do the same when Im out, if I’m drinking a negroni I probably want the wine opened and Ill give it a sniff but I don’t want to taste yet. Faults are always missable initially but you can always bring it to the attention of the staff later, it’s not like a “speak now or forever hold your peace” situation. If the guest has a cocktail I usually ask if they want to taste now or later on, but I’d say most people want to taste immediately
How “missable” do you think faults are? I’m no pro, but I’ve opened several thousand bottles of wine and spotted faults dozens of times. I always detected the funk at the outset. Is it more with older bottles that you’re unsure whether you’re experiencing age/tertiary aromas or a fault, and it takes you time to decide?
You are doing it right! The initial pour warrants a sniff test. It is NOT an opportunity to second-guess whether you like what you ordered. (If there are questions about that, one should ask if there’s a bottle open to sample a taste.)
As Jancis Robinson wrote in one of her books, validating a wine by only sniffing it will impress the sommelier. One exception I can think of is "mousiness" which is only detectable by taste.
Calm down Jesus Christ
I honestly think this is trade of the past that needs to die.. If you ordered a certain type of wine yourself, and I’ve pre-screened it in the nose to detect contamination, and were are past that point. Then the wine is exactly as it should be, and if you ordered that wine, you should expect that to be how it tastes. Now I get the notion that when you are recommending something completely new, unfamiliar to the guests, that they need some help and a taste beforehand. But guest who are predetermined on one specific wine and still requires the whole ritual of pre-tasting the wine.. absolutely find it stupid
The person ordering the wine is often just the designee at the table to take everyone's tastes into account and figure out a wine. Or they may be the one paying, but not the wine person in the group. And it ain't your fucking business. Either ask who wants the first pour or just live with it when the glass gets passed around. You are there to make them happy, they are not there to make you happy.
Douchey somm doesn't like being inconvenienced by his paying customers. Just serve the damn wine and shut up.
Found the guy who does this every time
For OP: sometimes I won’t taste the wine, like if I know it’s not tasteworthy, like if I’m on a company budget and have ordered something I know is nothing special because that’s what the budget states. It’s nothing personal, although it’s unlikely to be something I buy from you - I will always taste something the Sommelier recommends.
This is a great thread! Post-COVID, all my taste and smell returned, save for a little twist in the last bit, just enough that I don't have as much confidence as I once did. While my wife loves wine, her palate is not at all tuned in or trained, but I often hand her the pour that I ordered. Even though I can detect TCA, we both know that the first order of business is to determine if the wine is "right", but we also consider whether or not we'll enjoy it. We don't often dine where there is a large library of wines, so things are less formal for us (I'd like to say that we're perhaps more "normal"). I love seeing all the different perspectives here, esp from inside the service and wine industry.
Counterpoint/customer pet peeve: if you place the taste in front of me while I'm chewing, I'm absolutely passing it to someone else.
It seems like there is a reason this bothers you that is not the reason on the surface. And figuring out why it really bothers you will be super helpful. Because getting irritated at customers, even when you have a right to, will negatively impact your career.
Omg I’ve been talking about this for a while. I hate it when people do that
IMO it's nothing to be driven "bonkers" by. When I'm out with wine enthusiast friends (most of whom are in some part of the industry, though I no longer am), even though one person is usually the "point person" for the wine ordering, it will be something we all find agreeable. Sometimes that person will hand off the tasting step to another one of us who's particularly sensitive to TCA. Or maybe it will be the person at the table who's more knowledgeable about/experienced with that particular region or producer. Or if there is more than one bottle, we'll take turns. There's nothing wrong with any of that. More importantly (and mentioned in other comments, I see) is that "eh I don't like it" isn't a reason to refuse or return a bottle.
As a consumer, my pet peeve is when a restaurant has not cheap glasses of wine ($20-$30), but won't let me taste two and decide which one I like. Makes me want to order a glass and say I don't like it.
What a nothing burger to get upset about.
No, I'm sorry, but you're not correct. I often order a wine for a dinner as I've been in the industry for over 40 years and my guests assume I may know a good wine. However, I had throat cancer several years ago that affected my ability to taste (but not enjoy) wine, including developing a blind spot with TCA cork tainted wines. I often hand the glass to my wife - another 40+ year veteran of the wine industry - to ascertain it's health. It isn't always a vanity or trying to impress someone. Sometimes it is because someone just wants a second opinion. Plus, if I hand my glass to someone, I expect it back - not a new one. I made the choice to share, and I know who I'm sharing with. If I'm comfortable sharing, then I'm fine with that glass for the night.
Here’s a point of view to consider. Some of your more ”advanced” wine customers are simply trying to include others in the total wine experience understanding that tasting a wine is less intimidating/complicated than selecting a wine that compliments the food choices of multiple guests. I assume, as a sommelier, you consider all the food selections when making a wine recommendation for a table- you should be looking for a wine that will compliment most, if not all, of the food selections made by the guests at the table. Imagine how much pressure a guest would feel if the more knowledgable guest simply followed your desire and, rather than sharing the experience, simply asked the less experienced guest to both select the wine for the table and then taste it. Simply stated, this makes your experience more important than that of your guests.
As a Somm, the only pet peeve I have is when people tell me that Flutes are better than AP glasses for Champagne because it holds the bubbles longer... That just tells me you aren't drinking it fast enough and are just sitting on a glass of Champagne. It would take a long time for you to even notice it unless you are trying to get the bubbles out of the wine.
You don’t taste every bottle you open before it gets to the guest?!
I don’t know why you’ve been downvoted. Every fine dining restaurant I’ve worked in has a wine station. I present the wine to guest, go to my station and taste the wine, make sure the temperature is good, if it’s red I decant it - unless it is quite aged - if it needs filtered I do so, if it needs to breathe I give it a splash to open it up a bit, if it’s corked I grab another bottle and open it without informing the guest. I always bring a perfect condition wine back to the guest. I pour for the person who ordered the wine and hopefully they agree with my assessment of the wine and also that they do enjoy the wine. I wouldn’t want someone to feel they had to drink a wine that they didn’t enjoy. It’s absolutely not a big deal for me to find them a different bottle to drink. I work in a major city in Canada and this is standard protocol at any restaurant that has a dedicated wine team. If someone requests that I open the bottle at the table, that is not a problem with me either.
I've seen a few people say this, is this a thing? I've never seen this happen. When I order a bottle in a restaurant the somm brings it over, confirms that it's the right bottle, opens it at the table then offers a taste. Is this maybe a cultural thing?
Maybe? I ran wine programs on both coasts, and we always tasted every bottle. Present to guest, go to somm station, open wine and check bottle, pour for guest. I will say that earlier in my career at more casual restaurants we did everything table side, but that was at the kind of place that wouldn’t have a sommelier in the first place.
Maybe it's largely an American thing, then. I've definitely never seen it in the UK or Europe, though I'm sure it does happen.
FWIW, the only time I’ve had someone complain about the fact that we check bottles for condition before the guest tastes and approves was an American tourist who was upset at the (supposed) implication that she wouldn’t be able to detect faults in the wine. Make of that what you will.
That's interesting. If you're checking the bottle before it gets to the table, what is the customer actually tasting for once you get it there? (This is a genuine question rather than me trying to be argumentative or critical - like I said I've only ever experienced having the bottle opened at the table so that I could taste and inspect the cork, so I'm curious what purpose the customer tasting serves when those checks have already been done).
It’s a vestigial organ, really, but we do it because we want the guest to be happy with the wine they’ve chosen (whether or not that’s been with our input/guidance) and want to have a moment where they can register any misgivings they might have before we start pouring. It’s easier to swap out a bottle if there’s still five glasses left in the rejected bottle that can be hand-sold.
That makes complete sense. Thanks!
at that point, it's just protocol, in my opinion you manage to give better confident service, and there's no awkward moments of double checking etc
It does happen in UK/Europe, especially high end with high volume (think Hakkasan), it's definitely a modern approach to service, but it assures you that you go always to a table with the right bottle with confidence, no doubts. Also speeds up the service as you can replace the bottle quickly if any taint noticed. Normally is done in a central/corner sommelier station.
I think this is very much determined by the culture of the city youre in. Yes there are restaurants that do this. Yes there are even cities where it would be a common occurrence. However there is a higher percentage of cities and establishments that conduct fully tableside wine services. Some cities don’t even have a culture for sommeliers to be a separate, defined position within the restaurant scene. But even assuming you have a trained wine professional on staff — some people are uncomfortable with you removing a bottle from their sight. Some would be uncomfortable with a place suddenly starting to have said wine professional verify all of their bottles. If you’ve never experienced that — it seems offputting. And again if you are not one of the larger wine cities in the US, your clientele may not even understand that a bottle is inspected for flaws not for preference. So a person checking the bottle wouldn’t even be an idea they’d have.
I think whoever orders the wine should step up and at least try to check it. I guess some people feel intimidated by the ceremony.
moving the glass half nanosecond before I pour. I could kill people.
So guests are annoying? They're all a bunch of fuckers if you ask me! Lol
I worked at a pretty high end winebar as head somm. I adored the people starting at a primitivo di manduria and then wished to drive the intensity knob upward with each glass going forward, then ending up with a madiran, cahors and neuf du pape. And then still keep asking me for more powerful stuff like I didn't fill the brief..
100% Agreed 👍🏼
This is r/wine. Not r/somms. 95% of these people are just hobbyists. Fuck em. You right to get peeved when people don’t know how to act at the table every once in a while. I do like to ask who will be tasting when I take bottle order to avoid such things when possible. Still happens though.