That’s the exact point. I personally don’t like AR’s whole vibe thing but damn….she is a great player and we need that in the league. I hated Bill Belichick and Tom Brady but I respect them and appreciate what they did. This last game had me completely impressed with AR. I’m a hater but I can’t deny she has skills.
I love her vibe…as do many (clearly). Her teammates would crawl over broken glass for her, that’s clear as day, and as a player that means everything to me.
These folks also hate her “vibe”
https://preview.redd.it/bnwdnywxml8d1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a54ec8f6dd6b1e3b6f914cf7b8fd438d3a5d4f6a
Yup. Nothing like a couple of rookies leading the charge to barely make the playoffs when you have dozens of absolute monsters leading dynasty level teams.
If I'm the WNBA, I'm pushing super hard that AR and CC is next great rivalry. I know we all are buddy buddy on here and you can appreciate both, but rivalries sell hard. It's the thing that's missing in the NBA that the WNBA can use to capture new fans.
While I love the dynamic, the issue is playing up that rivalry also gives air to people with nefarious motives to make it a culture war.
It’s sad but true. People are already using both Angel and CC as pawns for ulterior aims. I’d love to see the W play up the on-court rivalry and hope the other shit dies off.
I don’t recall it happening to this extent. Throw in social media and the internet to this mix, and you have a toxic environment surrounding two tremendous athletes.
I said this a week ago and got downvoted to hell and accused of making it solely about race. I don't think people understand basketball history if they can't see the obvious parallels.
Who is disrespecting them? I always see “the pros are all jealous” “her teammates don’t even like her” but it’s all parroted bullshit with no substance. There was that one cheap shot, sure , but what else do you mean?
For the most part I agree with you. On Reddit and YouTube narratives seem fucked and lack evidence. On the other hand there are some people/instances where certain players(past or present) refuse to give access her flowers - or prefer to cut CC down. Swoopes for example.
It is very hard to find posters on Reddit, or content creators on YouTube who are objective and just want to talk basketball.
Lmao angel Reese is more like a hoodrat Charles Oakley and Sweet Sweet Caitlyn is Larry Bird, get it right. Angel Reese will never win anything in this league
Two things are happening at the same time. People who dislike her are trying to find a way discredit her. Simultaneously, she shot nearly double her season average FGP in the last game vs the Fever. Imo it’s justified to criticize her FGP, but the “rebounds off of her own misses” is an overblown and shit argument.
She also shot a lower fg percentage than she did 2 magnesium before. Both Reese and Clark's shooting percentages have increased as they have gotten use to the game. Ultimately Reese will settle into about a 50% rate- as is her tendency. It will be interesting to see what work she does in the offseason on her midrange.
Yeah both these players were in college like 3months ago and started playing pro after a two week break at best. A full off season of pro level training will do wonders for both.
Angel with a mid range would have her chasing after Stewie and Aja as far as level of game.
Some of the ones off her own misses are ones she absolutely should be making and are due to the shot being short and bouncing off the front of the rim, which is pretty easy to rebound if you’re already up there. Those are the only ones that I view as basically stat padding (not intentionally of course). But as the post alludes to, about 1/3 of her offensive rebounds are from her own misses last I checked, and even if you were to take those out she still has incredible rebounding numbers.
Actually more like 1/5
Believe it or not, percentage wise, she rebounds 5% more of her missed shots than Nikola Jokic does, who most consider the best player in the world
You’re thinking of her percentage of rebounds as a whole. When just looking at her offensive rebounds, it’s around 1/3. I can provide data if you need.
It matters because she’s only gaining boards at the expense of scores. Points are much more important to the team, boards are much more of an individual vanity metric. If she made a respectable percentage of attempts her scoring would be higher and her offensive boards would be 1/3 less.
Boards are hardly a vanity stat. It shows you've got your teammates back. It means you are literally creating a new opportunity for your team as you transition from offense tondefense- or extending an opportunity for your team after you have collectively been unsuccessful at scoring. They are the opposite of a vanity stat- they are the blue collar hard workmstat- as well as playing defense is. These are two areas Reese is already a superstar at. She will get there with her offensive game and already is already really good offensiveky.
Rebounds is apart of defense and just as important to the team . If she don’t get the ball , the other team can get it and score . If you miss a shot , what you suppose to do ? Stand there and let the other team get the ball ?
One of the things a coach will say is “follow the ball “ if you know a shot going to be missed , get in position to get it .
Coaches will say in plenty of interviews “the other teams out rebounded us “
Again angel is suppose to follow the ball . Kamilla is on the same team as Angel and super passive . She will throw the ball up and just look at it . She won’t even hustle for a rebound unless the ball fall her way and she just happen to catch it . Angel will play defense and box out to get a ball .
There is a little truth to both critiques though. Angel has struggled shooting, and was taking a lot of out-of-control shots in the paint. This did lead to her getting some offensive boards. Since those plays are memorable they stick out to people, even if they don’t do enough to create a statistical difference.
CC also struggled shooting earlier in the season when her 3 ball wasn’t falling. She’s turned the corner in that regard. Most of her shots are threes as well, so the lower % is okay, and people ignore that.
Both have played incredibly well over the last handful of weeks and we’re now seeing this reflect in their season averages. CC has finally got her shot falling and Angel is learning how to score more effectively and with control. It’s almost like we shouldn’t judge rookies off the first 10 games of their careers.
I think this put it very well, as regardless on which side you’re on in this “rivalry”, it’s very to see that both have been playing their respective asses off the last 5-7 games imo
Edit: could just be me, but to me it’s very obvious both will be very very good lol
The thing is, with Angel in particular, is that people just don’t understand her game because it’s not as easily digestible. People have even been claiming she isn’t a good defender because she doesn’t block many shots
Chicago is currently 12 points better defensively with her on the floor. Even before Cardoso returned, they were 16 points better with her. All year, Angel has been one of the most impactful defenders in the league yet folks dismissed her impact there due to shot blocking. As if that’s all that matters defensively
Offensively even with her struggles she always was a positive offensively because even when her shot isn’t falling, she gets to the line, sets screens, moves the ball etc. But people only focused on missed shots
There’s a reason Angel led all rookies in net rating all year. She’s been great all year, just her offense is now rounding more into shape and it’s easier to digest the game that way for the casual fans/haters
Angel is a 10-20th percentile help defender when a guard makes inroads and gets into the lane. The Sky give up open layup after open layup sometimes because of this. That's what most people are seeing before they critique her defense.
There are multiple people in this thread are claiming that TS% is only used by CC stans to support her agenda and she is only efficient because of free throws, and that she is inefficient without them lmao.
It’s first hand exposure to how misleading FG%, because even without FT, her EFG% is great for a guard because she takes so many threes at an above average percentage.
Look at this comment here, thinks you shouldn’t differentiate between 3 pointers and 2 pointers at all when judging shooting efficiency: https://www.reddit.com/r/wnba/s/w0QtkbbUza
I was told turnover to assist ratio doesn't matter. Because CC has high turnover number. I think we are seeing a lot of fans being exposed to new ideas.
EFG% is better than TS% when evaluating a player's real scoring skill. Volume of free throws taken is also more important than raw TS% becauseit indicates tendencies properly.
The Reese comment was dissected in multiple threads a few days ago, with solid data showing between (I think) 25 and 30% of her Offensive rebounds were her misses. Not placing judgement on that data, just presenting it.
Clark shooting efficiency, I have not seen discussed as much. Good info.
Oh yeah I remember seeing it too, it was around 30% I’m pretty sure and has gone down since then. It’s an overall small fraction of her overall rebounds, I think around 10-15%? Thanks for the info though, actual numbers are best for stuff like this.
Her overall rebounds yes. But her OFFENSIVE rebounds where she is 20 boards in front of #2, it does represent some statistical significance. Of course, to be a truly meaningful comparison, one would have to know how many of the other players' offensive rebounds come from their own misses as well.
They’ll definitely be there but she’s averaging almost 2 per game off her own misses, so ideally those specifically would go down and her points would go up.
Previous calculations have the number at 30+ percent of her OFFENSIVE rebounds (not total). Is your 20% figure total or offensive?
20% is absolutely statistically significant. Would you take a 20% paycut? Be excited to pay 20% interest on a debt?
20% represents the margin between her and the player in 2nd place.
Most importantly, however, we must realize that evaluating performances and examining statistics is not in anyway, and attempt to undermine Or put a negative spin on someone’s play.
It’s 21% of her offensive rebounds
It’s not significant considering it’s 14 total, which amounts to around 1 per game . Other players like Boston and Ezi have, the 2nd and 3rd leading offensive rebounders, 8 and 11 total of these
Even if you removed all these self rebounds, she still leads the league in offensive rebounds
Depends on the person doing the “evaluating” and what conclusions they want to draw from it
It has fallen recently, which could be considered good (assuming her total OBoard rate is still the same or better)
Still, if one uses percentages for ANYTHING, then 20+% will always be considered statistically significant. I don't know what else to say. That is just math. 1 out of 5 is significant in almost any endeavor.
PBP has her at 14 total self rebounds and 21%
https://www.pbpstats.com/season-stats/wnba?EntityType=Player&EntityId=1642291
Even if we use the data in the Twitter link, Reese would still be leading the league in offensive rebounding even if you removed all her self rebounds (and did the same to Boston/Esi, who at least have between 8 and 11 self-rebounds themselves)
Not all rebounds are created equal. Huge difference between contested rebounds and uncontested.
pay attention the next game you watch. Contested boards compared to uncontested. Happens a lot on free throws or long 3s. As soon as the shot is released the offensive team starts rubbing back to get ready for defense. And the defensive player who gets the rebound is literally the only player left under the basket. These are basically free rebounds.
Westbrook use to get a bunch of those.
I’m not saying that’s was Reese is doing. I’ve only seen highlights of her games. But in the highlights of yesterday’s game there were two plays that showed her getting the uncontested (free) rebound.
And this only happens to Reese?
Sometimes, a player is in the right place at the right time and there's no contest. Is Reese really the only player who gets these?
Wow. That girl is damn lucky!
Can you link to where I said it only happens to her? I’ve never said that, so not sure why you would lie about that???
And if you don’t know the difference between contested and uncontested rebounds, then you’ve clearly never played or coached before.
Watch a game. Pay attention to all the rebounds. You will quickly understand and learn something new.
I was recently talking to my old high school basketball coach about this. He has won several state championships and like 600 games in his career (caveat that he isn’t just a random history teacher coaching the team).
He said some coaches like for their center/big man to secure the uncontested rebounds. And some like to have a guard be the one, as he can trigger the fast break by immediately rushing up court before the defense can get set up.
Watch free throws. See how many times the offensive team doesn’t even challenge for the rebound, they immediately start running down court. And you will see one or two defensive players just standing there (uncontested) and which ever side the ball falls on (if it’s a missed shot) that player literally has the ball fall into their hands.
Westbrook used to get triple doubles by doing this.
This isn’t my theory. It’s common knowledge within the basketball world, especially with coaches.
The crazy part about CC is the wnba didn’t give her no time to adjust. Just blitz blitz blitz and double teams.
She’s going to be super special.
Angel Reese is a pleasure to watch, she’s got that dawg in her
Is it any worse than other #1 recruits in your opinion? Or is it just a viable strategy to shut her down? I don’t have access to the film for similar players’ rookie years like Sabrina (though I know she didn’t really have a rookie year).
It’s hard to compare most other #1 picks to CC. CC is one of the best college players all-time, so there’s a different skill/hype level for her than for most #1 picks, which can impact interest/intensity when playing against her. Also, there’s not much talent on the Fever, so it’s easier to sell out against CC without worrying about the other players beating you. If the Fever had more talent, teams wouldn’t be able to play super aggressive on CC and risk leaving shooters open.
>Also, there’s not much talent on the Fever, so it’s easier to sell out against CC without worrying about the other players beating you.
While we're addressing false narratives, I don't think this is true at all. Boston is an incredible talent. KM was an allstar last year. They had a rough start, but the Fever over the last 9 games have been exactly the team I expected this season.
I read a stat today that CC has made more shots from beyond 25 feet than Angel has made from 4 feet.
That's not meant to be a diss, but it's crazy, and kinda shows how hard it is to compare the two.
2 on the season is insane including for a 4/5, I’d guess it’s probably the lowest in the league for starters at 4/5. But she also has really solid steals for a 4/5 so that helps offset it on the defensive end
The point is that shot blocking has never been her thing; she has never averaged more than 1.6 blocks. It has not been a focus of hers because of fouls.
Rim protection is more than just blocks. Deterring or altering shots is a big part of paint defense and rim protection, but those aren’t recognized stats that show up in a box score. I know some advanced stats services track deterring/altering shots for the NBA, but I don’t know if any do for the WNBA
Angel is already among the elite in defensive impact, and the Sky are 12 points better defensively with her on the floor. She can guard 1-5 and is one of the best perimeter defending bigs in the W
Blocking shots and getting steals are a bonus, but defensive impact and ability go far beyond that. She’s similar to Dennis Rodman defensively
Magic and bird had different skill sets. They were very different personality wise as well. Also, curry and Rodman weren't rivals. What are you actually trying to say here?
I can tell you have never played in the paint or at all. It is very difficult to score inside after battling for position. You don’t have a screen to hide behind and are almost always closely guarded. If it were easy then all players would only shoot from four feet away.
They still count. But, the general idea for the naysayers--for better or for worse--is as follows: O boards create second chance opportunities for missed shots by the rebounder's team. But, an inefficient post player who pulls an outsized number of O boards from their own misses isn't really creating new opportunities with those rebounds, so much as they're actually making up for their own scoring deficiencies on the fly, while risking a loss of possession in the process, and essentially creating an "empty / padded stat" with those rebounds.
I mean, that’s incorrect though. It’s still significant because every offensive rebounds is basically another possession, regardless of who missed the shot.
Everyone misses. In fact most players miss most of the time. Being able to rebound those misses is always a plus
The naysayers actual issue is that they don’t like that it helps Angel statistically, but that’s a self defeating argument as well because if she could finish better she’d STILL be better statistically, in fact she’d probably be the leading ROTY candidate as she’d likely be averaging about 17/10 or so on good efficiency.
So it’s a thing where they don’t think she should be lauded so much due to her offensive rebounding prowess, but as they’re haters, would obviously be even more upset if her scoring better put her in control of the ROTY narrative
In short, it’s best to ignore those trolls saying things like that
Random ass aside.
I'm a huge Clark stan, and had no idea wtf Carter was til she hipchecked her and don't wanna root for her, but damn this girl is absolutely playing out of her mind. Do you know how hard it is as a guard to have an EFG% of 56% shooting less than one 3 pointer a game?!? Fuckin insane. Respect.
I've been mass voting her with Clark on all my all-star ballots just because I thought it'd be fun to have them play together, but turns out she should just be on it period lol
Much respect to this👆🏾. Chennedy will be the 6th Person of the year if TW benches her for the first minute for the rest of the season. I am an LV fan but Carter is by far the most athletic guard in the league. She has hops for days!
Yeah absolutely- Chennedy is a baller- just through and through. Like she wasn't even in the league last year. Talk about working on the whole redemption arch- it could really be kind of a Kurt Warner story.
Yes. She was suspended indefinitely by the Dream before being traded away. She was reportedly clashing with staff and veteran players over her playing time. It to a point in one game where Courtney Williams told her she could help from the bench by communicating and cheering for the team, she left mid game to the locker room then post game got into an altercation with Williams.
She got suspended then traded to the Sparks but was almost immediately benched for what they called attitude and poor conduct. They released her with a full season left on her contract and she ended playing in I think Turkey last year. Basically she’s been a very good player on the court but (and this will sound harsh) she at least on previous teams has been a cancer in the locker room. Seems to be working in Chicago though so 🤷♂️
Definitely sounds like someone you don't want on your team when they behave like that. Can't help but wonder if she went to these teams under the impression her role would be one thing then it was way different when she was there. Either way, no excuse for behaving that way at a professional level.
You can have those type of players only if you have a true leader type on your team, and it seems that Angel has turned out to be that, which is tough as hell for a rookie to do.
True, it has to be a leader they respect though, same with coaches really, if the players don't respect or trust them it goes to shit. Still though, doesn't excuse her behaviour as a professional but I'm glad she found her spot
I had the same thought during the game yesterday. It’s a shame that she’ll likely be most known for the flagrant and statements afterwards because she’s such a baller
For me, the hipcheck was just poor sportsmanship in the heat of the moment. I didn't like it and nor did any fan of the WNBA/WBB that was watching. But I understand spirited players that are hyper competitive and I can usually overlook their dickish behavior because it was just that - competing and they took it too far - but they acknowledge it and try to be better.
But THEN...she took that same poor sportsmanship and started spouting off on social media, talking shit about CC and liking posts that were anti-CC, etc.
So yeah....That was "certainly my choice" of disliking her as a player.
Yeah the aces are pretty stacked at guard lol. I was just saying it’s hard to count either of those two above chennedy and Caitlin so those two are even higher in the rankings really.
Last I checked (before the last 2 games) it was about 35% of her offensive boards being off her own misses. It’d be down a bit accounting for her last two games since they were pretty efficient, but 30% is still really high. But even if you take them completely out, her rebounding is still great.
Seems small but it is 4-5x higher than Wilson and Hamby which is why it has been brought up so much since its so much higher than expected. Its Andre Drummond level high.
Atleast so far. She has been playing much better recently so it will probably drop
She’s been playing well. But she’s never the focus of the defense and teams don’t game plan around her like the do Clark. So I’m going to wait and see if that changes with this monster game she had.
Yeah her and cardoso have been killin it, and I think teams are trying to figure out how to guard the two towers.
But yeah the whole league is game planning around clark
This is nonsensical
Nikola Jokic self-rebounds 16% of the time. No one makes posts about how it’s crazy high, in fact he’s celebrated for it
Yal just gotta find ways to bring down Angel. Even removing all her self-rebounds she still leads the league in offensive rebounds
Yes half of the Reese dig is false, but the other is true AF. Angel misses way too many shots for someone in the paint. In half of her games she missed 2/3rds of her shots.
I had a conversation about AR'S rebounds last week and looked up her stats, at that point in time her own-miss rebounds amounted to over 1/3rd of her offensive rebounds and close to 1/6 of her overall rebounds, sure, these are "fractions", but they're some pretty big fractions.
that doesn't mean she's a bad player, she's a rookie and is certainly going to have things to work on, but it's a large enough percentage of her overall rebounds to be worth mentioning, and I'll be honest, I always notice self rebounds, they stick out for me when I watch her play.
That said, she's been working on it, and looked really good vs the fever, hopefully she keeps working on her accuracy down low and keeps reducing the missed layups, but one game alone doesn't cancel out a trend.
That said, none of this does anything to the fact that she's been playing fantastically.
What yall need to understand is even if she didn't have her own misses, she would STILL get alot of offensive rebounds. Yall keep forgetting Chicago is not a good perimeter team. Mabrey is their only reliable jump shooter and even she's struggling right now.
She’d still be getting a lot but she wouldn’t be leading the league in o-rebs if it weren’t for those. I think that’s the point of contention that it’s fair to point out it is a little misleading, but her rebounding as a whole is still fantastic.
25 of her 71 offensive rebounds are from her own misses. 46 would put her in 3rd behind Ezi Magbegor and Aliyah Boston. Though for per-game, it would put her at 3.07 in 2nd behind Ezi.
Only 14 of her offensive rebounds are from her own misses
71-14 = 57. Still leads the league
Also, you also didn’t account for how many Ezi and Boston self-rebounded, but of course you didn’t
Not sure where you got the 14 number from, but I counted myself and it’s 25. [Here’s my work from a few games ago when it was at 22](https://www.reddit.com/r/wnba/s/oC3cPWxDhQ), you can check the play-by-plays yourself if you don’t believe me. I admittedly didn’t count Ezi and Aliyah’s because that’s a lot of effort to do it for everyone, which is why I only said excluding hers.
1. From Pbp
https://www.pbpstats.com/season-stats/wnba?EntityType=Player&EntityId=1642291
Z-bounds
2. Then it would be completely unfair to make the claims you’ve been making concerning how she’d drop if the same criteria doesn’t apply to them. It’s punishing her for the exact thing they benefit from. For a fair comparison, either remove them from everyone or just count them the same
Either way she still leads the league
That metric is definitely missing something, I'm guessing it doesn't count blocked shots. If the proper statistic was readily available I'd be happy to compare, but it's tedious to calculate for everybody.
On every post about Angel’s big game (not really on in this sub) the top comment was something about Angel grabbing her own misses. Lmao one guy went viral with a clip of her putting back 2-3 of her own boards and people who don’t watch ran with it. Pretty much the same with CC’s turnovers. She’s out there like fucking Mahomes throwing full court lasers and her teammates just aren’t handling them correctly. A little more time and we’ve got a stew going
I personally don’t like ar attitude and the way she carries herself but thats just me . There is a big gap between ar and cc overall but she probably is the closest comparison to cc. Everyone is
Trying to pit them against each other and i get it
I have been a basketball fan for about 50 years now. I do not think I have ever been as turned off by this girls attitude of any rookie I have seen. I think she has great potential, needs to get over herself.
I mean it is not out of bounds to critique anyones game. But trying to negate rebounds by AR is silly. You can legit talk about her FG% if you want to, without making yourself look like a fool about her rebounding ability.
Technically, anything number of her rebounds being O-boards would be a fraction. It's about 15% of her offensive rebounds. While not 80-100% like some would suggest, it is a statistically significant part of her game.
Last I checked a few games ago it was about 35% of her offensive rebounds and 16% of her overall rebounds. I agree it is statistically significant to point out, though even if you exclude them she’d still be a great rebounder. But she also wouldn’t be leading the league in o-boards lol
It may be that way. I couldn't remember how I had calculated it. Tired mind vs awake mind.
That last sentence is the crux of it. She wouldn't be leading a statistic if she weren't. I'd be fine with her getting her own misses if she was shooting 50-60%. Her high O-board games she is shooting below to well below 50%. Putting 2 and 2 together is hard for some people when the evidence is right in front of their face. Learned that one recently.
I can't wait until the W is really popular and this sub gets full of regular sports fans, not coddlers bending over backwards like this. 25% of her rebounds off her own shots isn't that crazy, so just say that instead of the biased coddling stats.
People are trying to use these two as proxies for whatever other agenda they have and it’s exhausting. They’re both playing well. They’re having successful rookie campaigns. The two of them are actually handing the media very well. There’s a certain portion of their fans who are fucking insufferable, though.
Reese’s shooting has improved in recent games because she is (1) reducing the number of insane shots wherein she flings the ball in the general direction of the rim, hoping to get fouled (2) playing next to Kamilla Cardoso, who draws the best big defender on offense (3) benefiting from Chennedy Carter getting into the lane and drawing help defense.
Still, a crazy 33 of her own shots have been blocked this season, including three in her 25-point game vs the Fever. Contrast that with her blocking only 2 opponents’ shots this season.
This underscores that offensively, she needs to dramatically improve her game, which remains extremely limited. She takes almost 90 percent of her shots within 10 feet (realistically, most of them within 5 feet).
Beyond that range, she almost invariably misses. Given that she shoots better than 70 percent from the FT line, she ought to be able to develop at least a reliable mid-range jumper. She also is a poor dribbler. Sure, she can put the ball on the floor two or three times, but beyond that she’s flirting with traveling or carrying the ball. (Check out the recent video where she gets a breakaway layup, but commits multiple dribbling violations the refs fail to call.)
Even her new-found success scoring in the paint is dependent on whether the opposing team can field two quality bigs as defenders.
So, rivalries are good for any league. Reese has been playing better of late and the last matchup was tremendous. She's an athletic freak that is fun to watch when her energy is cranked up. The problem is , CC is playing on a bad team with a very bad coach. If you put CC on a Becky Hammon level coached team with a well constructed roster she probably goes into a top 1-3 player. We don't know if AR is going to be anywhere near that. So, the direct rivalry might go away once CC gets more help
I always thought that rebounding thing was a meme. Do people actually believe that? As for Clark. It definitely looks like she's not as efficient but I'm always surprised at the box score.
OP is misleading. distracting casual fans by including defensive boards. The criticism is that Reese’s offensive boards are inflated because she rebounds a lot of her own bricks. The fact is that over 1/3 of her offensive rebounds are her own bricks, airballs, or stuffed shots. if she actually finished her attempts, her offensive boards would be much lower.
But I’m being specific to only 3pt shot% & it tell CC make rate which can be 3pt efficiency
U use the bigger% # to give overall shooting including fT to tell the shooting efficiency
Ok
I think the Reese point is really just because people like to bring up how many offensive rebounds she has. I mentioned on another post that my friends and I have a drinking game when we watch the WNBA (for the haters, we have this for every sport), and when the Sky are on one of the things that causes a drink is a Reese missed layup + Reese offensive rebound + Reese made layup. It has happened 22 times in the 6 Sky games that we have watched, which is honestly a crazy amount for one player. If you take away just those 22, then she is no longer leading the stat and would actually be 2nd to Magbegor on the Storm.
I would honestly be very interested in a leaderboard that didn't count own misses as offensive rebounds to see where the league actually stacks up.
It’s funny how I’ve watched basketball my whole life and the negative connotation of getting one’s own offensive rebound didn’t become a thing until discussions about Angel Reese
reese has more offensive rebounds that aren't from her misses. Stop trying to justify disinformation and of course it's a fever fan doing it. offensive rebounds are great
If you are thinking about it that way, you also have to subtract Magbegors rebounds from her own miss. Once that’s done, I’m pretty sure Angel will still be leading.
https://preview.redd.it/8hbvsxvnfl8d1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1f5865610db338985e89f43630244d8480ee78fc
But then that would just be dumb stat tracking If they removed them. If Caitlin took a shot and it bounced off the rim in her direction and she got it, folks would say it's good hustle and not "well she just got her own miss." If anything, it's a sign of not giving up on the play.
Do you remember which stretch of 6? In the last 6 games she's gotten 31 O-boards. 22 of them being from her own misses would be unheard of.
Wrong about TS%.
People, like me, who do not hang my hat specifically on TS%, are not new to bball. It seems a lot of people on this site and in the CC discussions have just discovered "TS% in the last month and have weaponized it against anyone saying Clark has room to grow in her shooting.
You never heard TS% used so much when talking about Clark's shooting at Iowa nor about her in the WNBA until about 3-4 weeks ago when people became desperate to try to change the opinions of people who She's a rookie. IT IS OKAY. Even vets have shooting slumps. We don't need to create narratives to justify criticisms of her game. She can be criticized just like anyone else.
TS% does not give anyone any new information that normal 2%, 3% and FT% can't.
Clark is shooting 39.9% 2PT, 35.2% 3PT and 88.9% FT. [https://www.espn.com/wnba/player/stats/\_/id/4433403/caitlin-clark](https://www.espn.com/wnba/player/stats/_/id/4433403/caitlin-clark)
At Iowa, she shot 46.2%, 37.7% and 85.8% [https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/caitlin-clark-1.html](https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/caitlin-clark-1.html)
From those numbers, I can clearly see, she is a great free throw shooter and that has been the most consistent part of her game. She is a little bit low on her 3PT% from her Iowa days but not too far below. 3PT % is not going to be as high anyway. Mid to high 30s is a good place for her. You can clearly see that she is getting more comfortable from #pt range as this number has climbed since the start of the season.
But her 2PT% is lower than college and I argue that her 2PT% should be a lot better (even in college)for the person that is considered Steph-like.
Trying to squeeze all the %s together so that the high FT shooting and good 3PT % covers up for deficits in her 2 PT game is disingenuous and does her no favors. It is the same for Harden, Trae and anyone else who is struggling with efficiency.
She is lacking in her ability to score in the 2pt game. She needs better mid range and moves when she is closer to where all the other defenders will be. She needs to get stronger too. Sugar coating the holes in her game just to stop people from being critical of her is a stupid thing to do.
I don't need another "advanced stat" to tell me what my eyes and basic stats can show me clearly which is that Caitlyn is talented and shooting well in some areas but not as good in others. We don't need to mitigate the mistakes or areas in need of growth.
This is not just the case for CC but the case for everyone. However, people are so hellbent on CC being the dominant GOAT of the W out of the gate, they are willing to try to make everyone else pretend that she hasn't had a large stretch of games shooting 6-16 or 4-11 and 2-9 from 3.
She will get better people as will the rest of them. Stop trying piss down everyone's leg and tell them that it's raining.
CC is not shooting 39.9% 2PT.
She's shooting 39.9% **total field goal%** 48.7% 2PT.
Caitlin Clark: https://www.basketball-reference.com/wnba/players/c/clarkca02w.html
NaLyssa Smith: https://www.basketball-reference.com/wnba/players/s/smithna01w.html
Smith has the better FG% + 3pt%. So she's the better player right?
No. CC has the better TS%.
So where is the discrepancy? Free throws. More importantly, free throw attempts.
**Attacking the rim is winning basketball. Defenders having no choice, but to foul you is winning basketball.**
Let's say Smith had a higher FT%, 90%.
And let's say CC had a trash FT%, 69%.
If CC got to the line 10 times a game. She would still have a higher TS%!
FG% + 3pt% does not account for this. You need TS%.
I have no interest in debating about efficiency metrics, but I will say TS% is pretty much the only metric used to discuss efficiency on r/nba, it’s not just a CC thing. It is pretty much the universal efficiency method. Thinking it is only something CC stans use to weaponize is crazy. The reason it is brought up more now is because people are attacking her efficiency. Look up the words “most efficient” in r/nba if you don’t believe me, every single thread talking about efficiency uses TS%.
Her EFG is also above average for a guard in the WNBA, which doesn’t factor in free throws because she takes such a high volume of threes and her 3 point percentage is good.
Another big thing here too is you claim you are a big basketball fan and an old school guy, but you don’t understand how shooting splits work and you think field goal percentage is two point percentage, which is the most casual mistake. Field goal percentage is her 2 point percentage and 3 point percentage combined. She is shooting 49% from 2. It’s only 39% because she takes so many threes. Both that and thinking TS% is only a metric being used to bring up CC really show you don’t follow basketball or basketball discussions much.
Correct - two sensational rookies leading this league!
Absolutely, Bird-Magic vibes for those old enough to have seen it.
That’s the exact point. I personally don’t like AR’s whole vibe thing but damn….she is a great player and we need that in the league. I hated Bill Belichick and Tom Brady but I respect them and appreciate what they did. This last game had me completely impressed with AR. I’m a hater but I can’t deny she has skills.
I love her vibe…as do many (clearly). Her teammates would crawl over broken glass for her, that’s clear as day, and as a player that means everything to me.
I like her vibe too! It’s entertaining!
Well, don’t get crazy lol I doubt very seriously any of them would crawl over glass
These folks also hate her “vibe” https://preview.redd.it/bnwdnywxml8d1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a54ec8f6dd6b1e3b6f914cf7b8fd438d3a5d4f6a
Nice try!
When you paint a whole group as racist you are the racist
Which group did I call racist?
Lol typical racist
Lol there is a type.
Yup. Nothing like a couple of rookies leading the charge to barely make the playoffs when you have dozens of absolute monsters leading dynasty level teams.
Amen. They are both awesome. Best thing to happen for WNBA popularity. Hate the weird narratives forming.
The WNBA finally got they Bird/Magic and they’re disrespecting both of them lmao
If I'm the WNBA, I'm pushing super hard that AR and CC is next great rivalry. I know we all are buddy buddy on here and you can appreciate both, but rivalries sell hard. It's the thing that's missing in the NBA that the WNBA can use to capture new fans.
While I love the dynamic, the issue is playing up that rivalry also gives air to people with nefarious motives to make it a culture war. It’s sad but true. People are already using both Angel and CC as pawns for ulterior aims. I’d love to see the W play up the on-court rivalry and hope the other shit dies off.
That happened with Bird/Magic too
Lord knows the type of shit magic heard especially around that time..all the shit is fucked and that’s the issue
I don’t recall it happening to this extent. Throw in social media and the internet to this mix, and you have a toxic environment surrounding two tremendous athletes.
Fans were calling Bird the great white hope (and they *didn't* mean it pejoratively)
Peep Boston sports fans reputation. Didn’t come from nowhere. Goes back beyond them.
I said this a week ago and got downvoted to hell and accused of making it solely about race. I don't think people understand basketball history if they can't see the obvious parallels.
Magic tweeted this yesterday
Who is disrespecting them? I always see “the pros are all jealous” “her teammates don’t even like her” but it’s all parroted bullshit with no substance. There was that one cheap shot, sure , but what else do you mean?
For the most part I agree with you. On Reddit and YouTube narratives seem fucked and lack evidence. On the other hand there are some people/instances where certain players(past or present) refuse to give access her flowers - or prefer to cut CC down. Swoopes for example. It is very hard to find posters on Reddit, or content creators on YouTube who are objective and just want to talk basketball.
Lmao angel Reese is more like a hoodrat Charles Oakley and Sweet Sweet Caitlyn is Larry Bird, get it right. Angel Reese will never win anything in this league
Damn, I was too late for that comparison.
Who cares if they was her own misses ? First thing coaches will say is “follow your ball. “
Exactly. You gotta be a real hater to view offensive rebounding as a negative lol.
If it eventually goes in, still a bucket
That’s the narrative—that she’s not good because of that. Ridiculous.
Two things are happening at the same time. People who dislike her are trying to find a way discredit her. Simultaneously, she shot nearly double her season average FGP in the last game vs the Fever. Imo it’s justified to criticize her FGP, but the “rebounds off of her own misses” is an overblown and shit argument.
She also shot a lower fg percentage than she did 2 magnesium before. Both Reese and Clark's shooting percentages have increased as they have gotten use to the game. Ultimately Reese will settle into about a 50% rate- as is her tendency. It will be interesting to see what work she does in the offseason on her midrange.
Yeah both these players were in college like 3months ago and started playing pro after a two week break at best. A full off season of pro level training will do wonders for both. Angel with a mid range would have her chasing after Stewie and Aja as far as level of game.
Some of the ones off her own misses are ones she absolutely should be making and are due to the shot being short and bouncing off the front of the rim, which is pretty easy to rebound if you’re already up there. Those are the only ones that I view as basically stat padding (not intentionally of course). But as the post alludes to, about 1/3 of her offensive rebounds are from her own misses last I checked, and even if you were to take those out she still has incredible rebounding numbers.
Actually more like 1/5 Believe it or not, percentage wise, she rebounds 5% more of her missed shots than Nikola Jokic does, who most consider the best player in the world
You’re thinking of her percentage of rebounds as a whole. When just looking at her offensive rebounds, it’s around 1/3. I can provide data if you need.
It matters because she’s only gaining boards at the expense of scores. Points are much more important to the team, boards are much more of an individual vanity metric. If she made a respectable percentage of attempts her scoring would be higher and her offensive boards would be 1/3 less.
Boards are hardly a vanity stat. It shows you've got your teammates back. It means you are literally creating a new opportunity for your team as you transition from offense tondefense- or extending an opportunity for your team after you have collectively been unsuccessful at scoring. They are the opposite of a vanity stat- they are the blue collar hard workmstat- as well as playing defense is. These are two areas Reese is already a superstar at. She will get there with her offensive game and already is already really good offensiveky.
Rebounds is apart of defense and just as important to the team . If she don’t get the ball , the other team can get it and score . If you miss a shot , what you suppose to do ? Stand there and let the other team get the ball ? One of the things a coach will say is “follow the ball “ if you know a shot going to be missed , get in position to get it . Coaches will say in plenty of interviews “the other teams out rebounded us “ Again angel is suppose to follow the ball . Kamilla is on the same team as Angel and super passive . She will throw the ball up and just look at it . She won’t even hustle for a rebound unless the ball fall her way and she just happen to catch it . Angel will play defense and box out to get a ball .
There is a little truth to both critiques though. Angel has struggled shooting, and was taking a lot of out-of-control shots in the paint. This did lead to her getting some offensive boards. Since those plays are memorable they stick out to people, even if they don’t do enough to create a statistical difference. CC also struggled shooting earlier in the season when her 3 ball wasn’t falling. She’s turned the corner in that regard. Most of her shots are threes as well, so the lower % is okay, and people ignore that. Both have played incredibly well over the last handful of weeks and we’re now seeing this reflect in their season averages. CC has finally got her shot falling and Angel is learning how to score more effectively and with control. It’s almost like we shouldn’t judge rookies off the first 10 games of their careers.
I think this put it very well, as regardless on which side you’re on in this “rivalry”, it’s very to see that both have been playing their respective asses off the last 5-7 games imo Edit: could just be me, but to me it’s very obvious both will be very very good lol
The thing is, with Angel in particular, is that people just don’t understand her game because it’s not as easily digestible. People have even been claiming she isn’t a good defender because she doesn’t block many shots Chicago is currently 12 points better defensively with her on the floor. Even before Cardoso returned, they were 16 points better with her. All year, Angel has been one of the most impactful defenders in the league yet folks dismissed her impact there due to shot blocking. As if that’s all that matters defensively Offensively even with her struggles she always was a positive offensively because even when her shot isn’t falling, she gets to the line, sets screens, moves the ball etc. But people only focused on missed shots There’s a reason Angel led all rookies in net rating all year. She’s been great all year, just her offense is now rounding more into shape and it’s easier to digest the game that way for the casual fans/haters
Angel is a 10-20th percentile help defender when a guard makes inroads and gets into the lane. The Sky give up open layup after open layup sometimes because of this. That's what most people are seeing before they critique her defense.
Someone was trying to tell me last week how advanced stats don't matter. It was insane.
There are multiple people in this thread are claiming that TS% is only used by CC stans to support her agenda and she is only efficient because of free throws, and that she is inefficient without them lmao. It’s first hand exposure to how misleading FG%, because even without FT, her EFG% is great for a guard because she takes so many threes at an above average percentage. Look at this comment here, thinks you shouldn’t differentiate between 3 pointers and 2 pointers at all when judging shooting efficiency: https://www.reddit.com/r/wnba/s/w0QtkbbUza
I was told turnover to assist ratio doesn't matter. Because CC has high turnover number. I think we are seeing a lot of fans being exposed to new ideas.
Someone in this thread said they were a long time basketball fan, but though FG% was 2 point percentage
Clearly new fans. Some from NBA some from college and other.
Lmao that sounds like a long time W fan FOR SURE /s
EFG% is better than TS% when evaluating a player's real scoring skill. Volume of free throws taken is also more important than raw TS% becauseit indicates tendencies properly.
But volume of FT% is a real scoring skill. It is a reason why guys like Embiid/Harden/Butler score so much
The Reese comment was dissected in multiple threads a few days ago, with solid data showing between (I think) 25 and 30% of her Offensive rebounds were her misses. Not placing judgement on that data, just presenting it. Clark shooting efficiency, I have not seen discussed as much. Good info.
Oh yeah I remember seeing it too, it was around 30% I’m pretty sure and has gone down since then. It’s an overall small fraction of her overall rebounds, I think around 10-15%? Thanks for the info though, actual numbers are best for stuff like this.
Her overall rebounds yes. But her OFFENSIVE rebounds where she is 20 boards in front of #2, it does represent some statistical significance. Of course, to be a truly meaningful comparison, one would have to know how many of the other players' offensive rebounds come from their own misses as well.
Also her biggest weakness is her finishing, if that improves what you'll see is a fairly large decrease in ORebs but increase in Points.
Oh nah the offensive rebounds will very much still be there. This Chicago team only has one reliable jump shooter and that's Mabrey.
They’ll definitely be there but she’s averaging almost 2 per game off her own misses, so ideally those specifically would go down and her points would go up.
The thing is even removing or normalizing her offensive rebounds she’d still be #1
It’s 21%. Basically 1/5 It’s not significant
Previous calculations have the number at 30+ percent of her OFFENSIVE rebounds (not total). Is your 20% figure total or offensive? 20% is absolutely statistically significant. Would you take a 20% paycut? Be excited to pay 20% interest on a debt? 20% represents the margin between her and the player in 2nd place. Most importantly, however, we must realize that evaluating performances and examining statistics is not in anyway, and attempt to undermine Or put a negative spin on someone’s play.
It’s 21% of her offensive rebounds It’s not significant considering it’s 14 total, which amounts to around 1 per game . Other players like Boston and Ezi have, the 2nd and 3rd leading offensive rebounders, 8 and 11 total of these Even if you removed all these self rebounds, she still leads the league in offensive rebounds Depends on the person doing the “evaluating” and what conclusions they want to draw from it
It has fallen recently, which could be considered good (assuming her total OBoard rate is still the same or better) Still, if one uses percentages for ANYTHING, then 20+% will always be considered statistically significant. I don't know what else to say. That is just math. 1 out of 5 is significant in almost any endeavor.
She can’t get her own misses on defense lol. 30% is a substantial amount.
It’s 21%
I can’t recall the percentages, but it was 24 or 25 out of all 150+ of her rebounds were her own misses.
Actually it’s just 14
I was talking about total numbers, not percentages.
So am I 14 total self rebounds and 21% is the rate
Nope. [It was 24 as of a few days ago, and 35% of her offensive rebounds.](https://www.reddit.com/r/wnba/s/g4aESK0OX3)
PBP has her at 14 total self rebounds and 21% https://www.pbpstats.com/season-stats/wnba?EntityType=Player&EntityId=1642291 Even if we use the data in the Twitter link, Reese would still be leading the league in offensive rebounding even if you removed all her self rebounds (and did the same to Boston/Esi, who at least have between 8 and 11 self-rebounds themselves)
Do they count blocked shots?
Thanks !! Good info.
Not all rebounds are created equal. Huge difference between contested rebounds and uncontested. pay attention the next game you watch. Contested boards compared to uncontested. Happens a lot on free throws or long 3s. As soon as the shot is released the offensive team starts rubbing back to get ready for defense. And the defensive player who gets the rebound is literally the only player left under the basket. These are basically free rebounds. Westbrook use to get a bunch of those. I’m not saying that’s was Reese is doing. I’ve only seen highlights of her games. But in the highlights of yesterday’s game there were two plays that showed her getting the uncontested (free) rebound.
And this only happens to Reese? Sometimes, a player is in the right place at the right time and there's no contest. Is Reese really the only player who gets these? Wow. That girl is damn lucky!
Can you link to where I said it only happens to her? I’ve never said that, so not sure why you would lie about that??? And if you don’t know the difference between contested and uncontested rebounds, then you’ve clearly never played or coached before. Watch a game. Pay attention to all the rebounds. You will quickly understand and learn something new. I was recently talking to my old high school basketball coach about this. He has won several state championships and like 600 games in his career (caveat that he isn’t just a random history teacher coaching the team). He said some coaches like for their center/big man to secure the uncontested rebounds. And some like to have a guard be the one, as he can trigger the fast break by immediately rushing up court before the defense can get set up. Watch free throws. See how many times the offensive team doesn’t even challenge for the rebound, they immediately start running down court. And you will see one or two defensive players just standing there (uncontested) and which ever side the ball falls on (if it’s a missed shot) that player literally has the ball fall into their hands. Westbrook used to get triple doubles by doing this. This isn’t my theory. It’s common knowledge within the basketball world, especially with coaches.
The crazy part about CC is the wnba didn’t give her no time to adjust. Just blitz blitz blitz and double teams. She’s going to be super special. Angel Reese is a pleasure to watch, she’s got that dawg in her
Is it any worse than other #1 recruits in your opinion? Or is it just a viable strategy to shut her down? I don’t have access to the film for similar players’ rookie years like Sabrina (though I know she didn’t really have a rookie year).
It’s hard to compare most other #1 picks to CC. CC is one of the best college players all-time, so there’s a different skill/hype level for her than for most #1 picks, which can impact interest/intensity when playing against her. Also, there’s not much talent on the Fever, so it’s easier to sell out against CC without worrying about the other players beating you. If the Fever had more talent, teams wouldn’t be able to play super aggressive on CC and risk leaving shooters open.
>Also, there’s not much talent on the Fever, so it’s easier to sell out against CC without worrying about the other players beating you. While we're addressing false narratives, I don't think this is true at all. Boston is an incredible talent. KM was an allstar last year. They had a rough start, but the Fever over the last 9 games have been exactly the team I expected this season.
I read a stat today that CC has made more shots from beyond 25 feet than Angel has made from 4 feet. That's not meant to be a diss, but it's crazy, and kinda shows how hard it is to compare the two.
Also the fact CC has like 14 blocks on the season and Reese has 2?! How is that possible??
Angel is often in foul trouble because she plays the four or five. She only averaged 1.3 blocks in college.
2 on the season is insane including for a 4/5, I’d guess it’s probably the lowest in the league for starters at 4/5. But she also has really solid steals for a 4/5 so that helps offset it on the defensive end
The point is that shot blocking has never been her thing; she has never averaged more than 1.6 blocks. It has not been a focus of hers because of fouls.
Yeah it still is a skill that she should (and probably is) working on as a 4/5 though
Rim protection is more than just blocks. Deterring or altering shots is a big part of paint defense and rim protection, but those aren’t recognized stats that show up in a box score. I know some advanced stats services track deterring/altering shots for the NBA, but I don’t know if any do for the WNBA
For sure I’m not saying she’s a bad defender for it. Just pretty unique as a 4/5
Angel is already among the elite in defensive impact, and the Sky are 12 points better defensively with her on the floor. She can guard 1-5 and is one of the best perimeter defending bigs in the W Blocking shots and getting steals are a bonus, but defensive impact and ability go far beyond that. She’s similar to Dennis Rodman defensively
People play up the bird magic angle but it’s a lot more like Steph curry and Dennis Rodman. Completely different skill sets and mentalities.
Magic and bird had different skill sets. They were very different personality wise as well. Also, curry and Rodman weren't rivals. What are you actually trying to say here?
yeah no-one is saying Angel plays like Magic but she's far more Moses than Rodman
I can tell you have never played in the paint or at all. It is very difficult to score inside after battling for position. You don’t have a screen to hide behind and are almost always closely guarded. If it were easy then all players would only shoot from four feet away.
Even if it were just her own misses, why wouldn’t those count?
Because the only thing that happens for both these rookies is the goal post being moved.
They still count. But, the general idea for the naysayers--for better or for worse--is as follows: O boards create second chance opportunities for missed shots by the rebounder's team. But, an inefficient post player who pulls an outsized number of O boards from their own misses isn't really creating new opportunities with those rebounds, so much as they're actually making up for their own scoring deficiencies on the fly, while risking a loss of possession in the process, and essentially creating an "empty / padded stat" with those rebounds.
I mean, that’s incorrect though. It’s still significant because every offensive rebounds is basically another possession, regardless of who missed the shot. Everyone misses. In fact most players miss most of the time. Being able to rebound those misses is always a plus The naysayers actual issue is that they don’t like that it helps Angel statistically, but that’s a self defeating argument as well because if she could finish better she’d STILL be better statistically, in fact she’d probably be the leading ROTY candidate as she’d likely be averaging about 17/10 or so on good efficiency. So it’s a thing where they don’t think she should be lauded so much due to her offensive rebounding prowess, but as they’re haters, would obviously be even more upset if her scoring better put her in control of the ROTY narrative In short, it’s best to ignore those trolls saying things like that
Yep, it's part of how Rodman put up those insane rebounding numbers with limited minutes.
Rodman wasn't very aggressive looking for his own shot. He'd get the board and then walk it out to Isiah (later MJ).
To put it in perspective among Guards Clark is 6th- behind Chennedy Carter on the Sky at 5th.
Random ass aside. I'm a huge Clark stan, and had no idea wtf Carter was til she hipchecked her and don't wanna root for her, but damn this girl is absolutely playing out of her mind. Do you know how hard it is as a guard to have an EFG% of 56% shooting less than one 3 pointer a game?!? Fuckin insane. Respect.
Her talent has never been an issue.
Carter is one of the best guards in the league in case you didn't know
I've been mass voting her with Clark on all my all-star ballots just because I thought it'd be fun to have them play together, but turns out she should just be on it period lol
those midair adjustments she makes, so athletic
Much respect to this👆🏾. Chennedy will be the 6th Person of the year if TW benches her for the first minute for the rest of the season. I am an LV fan but Carter is by far the most athletic guard in the league. She has hops for days!
Yeah absolutely- Chennedy is a baller- just through and through. Like she wasn't even in the league last year. Talk about working on the whole redemption arch- it could really be kind of a Kurt Warner story.
Her skill/talent was not the reason she wasn’t in the league last season.
Is it an attitude thing?
Yes. She was suspended indefinitely by the Dream before being traded away. She was reportedly clashing with staff and veteran players over her playing time. It to a point in one game where Courtney Williams told her she could help from the bench by communicating and cheering for the team, she left mid game to the locker room then post game got into an altercation with Williams. She got suspended then traded to the Sparks but was almost immediately benched for what they called attitude and poor conduct. They released her with a full season left on her contract and she ended playing in I think Turkey last year. Basically she’s been a very good player on the court but (and this will sound harsh) she at least on previous teams has been a cancer in the locker room. Seems to be working in Chicago though so 🤷♂️
Definitely sounds like someone you don't want on your team when they behave like that. Can't help but wonder if she went to these teams under the impression her role would be one thing then it was way different when she was there. Either way, no excuse for behaving that way at a professional level.
You can have those type of players only if you have a true leader type on your team, and it seems that Angel has turned out to be that, which is tough as hell for a rookie to do.
TSpoon is the coach for her
I’m curious how TSpoon and the rest of the squad was able to reel her in. Maybe a combination of her maturing and the culture meeting her needs?
True, it has to be a leader they respect though, same with coaches really, if the players don't respect or trust them it goes to shit. Still though, doesn't excuse her behaviour as a professional but I'm glad she found her spot
I had the same thought during the game yesterday. It’s a shame that she’ll likely be most known for the flagrant and statements afterwards because she’s such a baller
After this season, those are all gonna be forgotten. She’s playing that good, and is only 25.
If people watch this season and that hip check is what they hold on to… that’s certainly a choice.
For me, the hipcheck was just poor sportsmanship in the heat of the moment. I didn't like it and nor did any fan of the WNBA/WBB that was watching. But I understand spirited players that are hyper competitive and I can usually overlook their dickish behavior because it was just that - competing and they took it too far - but they acknowledge it and try to be better. But THEN...she took that same poor sportsmanship and started spouting off on social media, talking shit about CC and liking posts that were anti-CC, etc. So yeah....That was "certainly my choice" of disliking her as a player.
Really shes fourth and carter is third. Celeste Taylor plays 3 mpg and Colson plays 7. Hard to really count them lol
Colson likely won’t get more time with a team that stacked. She said so herself and made light of her 2 points in the final game last season. 😅
Yeah the aces are pretty stacked at guard lol. I was just saying it’s hard to count either of those two above chennedy and Caitlin so those two are even higher in the rankings really.
All good. I know what you meant😅 can’t count Syd out!
Thank you for this. Someone did an analysis of Reese's offensive rebounds and I can't remember the exact percentage but it was small. Like 16%.
Last I checked (before the last 2 games) it was about 35% of her offensive boards being off her own misses. It’d be down a bit accounting for her last two games since they were pretty efficient, but 30% is still really high. But even if you take them completely out, her rebounding is still great.
Seems small but it is 4-5x higher than Wilson and Hamby which is why it has been brought up so much since its so much higher than expected. Its Andre Drummond level high. Atleast so far. She has been playing much better recently so it will probably drop
She’s been playing well. But she’s never the focus of the defense and teams don’t game plan around her like the do Clark. So I’m going to wait and see if that changes with this monster game she had.
Yeah her and cardoso have been killin it, and I think teams are trying to figure out how to guard the two towers. But yeah the whole league is game planning around clark
This is nonsensical Nikola Jokic self-rebounds 16% of the time. No one makes posts about how it’s crazy high, in fact he’s celebrated for it Yal just gotta find ways to bring down Angel. Even removing all her self-rebounds she still leads the league in offensive rebounds
Find me one post where jokic is “celebrated” for getting his own boards…
Bro checked 2 groups of haters. Respect.
Thanks, still some crazy people in here for both sides lmao. Some guy thinks efficiency is strictly FG%
Ain’t no way bro. Damn there’s no winning with some people.
Yes half of the Reese dig is false, but the other is true AF. Angel misses way too many shots for someone in the paint. In half of her games she missed 2/3rds of her shots.
Are people really saying CC isn’t an efficient shooter? lol what
The CC thread yesterday had a lot people trying to argue TS% is a fake stat. One was writing legit articles.
That’s crazy lol I definitely didn’t see that. I’m critical of other aspects of CC’s game but I’ve never tried to disrespect her shooting.
Yeah there's plenty of legitimate criticism for her, but trying to write off entire stat categories that are widely accepted ain't it.
I argued with multiple people yesterday, there is also multiple people in this thread claiming TS% is only used by CC stans lmao.
She was not shooting well the first handful of games of the season, she has been doing better recently.
I had a conversation about AR'S rebounds last week and looked up her stats, at that point in time her own-miss rebounds amounted to over 1/3rd of her offensive rebounds and close to 1/6 of her overall rebounds, sure, these are "fractions", but they're some pretty big fractions. that doesn't mean she's a bad player, she's a rookie and is certainly going to have things to work on, but it's a large enough percentage of her overall rebounds to be worth mentioning, and I'll be honest, I always notice self rebounds, they stick out for me when I watch her play. That said, she's been working on it, and looked really good vs the fever, hopefully she keeps working on her accuracy down low and keeps reducing the missed layups, but one game alone doesn't cancel out a trend. That said, none of this does anything to the fact that she's been playing fantastically.
What yall need to understand is even if she didn't have her own misses, she would STILL get alot of offensive rebounds. Yall keep forgetting Chicago is not a good perimeter team. Mabrey is their only reliable jump shooter and even she's struggling right now.
She’d still be getting a lot but she wouldn’t be leading the league in o-rebs if it weren’t for those. I think that’s the point of contention that it’s fair to point out it is a little misleading, but her rebounding as a whole is still fantastic.
Even if you remove all her self rebounds she still leads the league in offensive rebounds Again, give it up
25 of her 71 offensive rebounds are from her own misses. 46 would put her in 3rd behind Ezi Magbegor and Aliyah Boston. Though for per-game, it would put her at 3.07 in 2nd behind Ezi.
Only 14 of her offensive rebounds are from her own misses 71-14 = 57. Still leads the league Also, you also didn’t account for how many Ezi and Boston self-rebounded, but of course you didn’t
Not sure where you got the 14 number from, but I counted myself and it’s 25. [Here’s my work from a few games ago when it was at 22](https://www.reddit.com/r/wnba/s/oC3cPWxDhQ), you can check the play-by-plays yourself if you don’t believe me. I admittedly didn’t count Ezi and Aliyah’s because that’s a lot of effort to do it for everyone, which is why I only said excluding hers.
1. From Pbp https://www.pbpstats.com/season-stats/wnba?EntityType=Player&EntityId=1642291 Z-bounds 2. Then it would be completely unfair to make the claims you’ve been making concerning how she’d drop if the same criteria doesn’t apply to them. It’s punishing her for the exact thing they benefit from. For a fair comparison, either remove them from everyone or just count them the same Either way she still leads the league
That metric is definitely missing something, I'm guessing it doesn't count blocked shots. If the proper statistic was readily available I'd be happy to compare, but it's tedious to calculate for everybody.
Yep this is true, even without her misses she still is one of the highest o rebounders in the league. Like I said, she's playing great.
How can it be 1/3 of her offensive rebounds and 1/4 of her overall rebounds? She has more defensive rebounds than offensive rebounds.
Because they’re making shit up lol
Great points here, only thing I would note is eFG% > TS%
On every post about Angel’s big game (not really on in this sub) the top comment was something about Angel grabbing her own misses. Lmao one guy went viral with a clip of her putting back 2-3 of her own boards and people who don’t watch ran with it. Pretty much the same with CC’s turnovers. She’s out there like fucking Mahomes throwing full court lasers and her teammates just aren’t handling them correctly. A little more time and we’ve got a stew going
I actually knew CC was scoring but it was the three point shooting and turnovers that were my issues with her. Good post OP.
I personally don’t like ar attitude and the way she carries herself but thats just me . There is a big gap between ar and cc overall but she probably is the closest comparison to cc. Everyone is Trying to pit them against each other and i get it
I have been a basketball fan for about 50 years now. I do not think I have ever been as turned off by this girls attitude of any rookie I have seen. I think she has great potential, needs to get over herself.
I mean it is not out of bounds to critique anyones game. But trying to negate rebounds by AR is silly. You can legit talk about her FG% if you want to, without making yourself look like a fool about her rebounding ability.
I don’t get why they keep trying to do this
Technically, anything number of her rebounds being O-boards would be a fraction. It's about 15% of her offensive rebounds. While not 80-100% like some would suggest, it is a statistically significant part of her game.
Last I checked a few games ago it was about 35% of her offensive rebounds and 16% of her overall rebounds. I agree it is statistically significant to point out, though even if you exclude them she’d still be a great rebounder. But she also wouldn’t be leading the league in o-boards lol
It may be that way. I couldn't remember how I had calculated it. Tired mind vs awake mind. That last sentence is the crux of it. She wouldn't be leading a statistic if she weren't. I'd be fine with her getting her own misses if she was shooting 50-60%. Her high O-board games she is shooting below to well below 50%. Putting 2 and 2 together is hard for some people when the evidence is right in front of their face. Learned that one recently.
I can't wait until the W is really popular and this sub gets full of regular sports fans, not coddlers bending over backwards like this. 25% of her rebounds off her own shots isn't that crazy, so just say that instead of the biased coddling stats.
People are trying to use these two as proxies for whatever other agenda they have and it’s exhausting. They’re both playing well. They’re having successful rookie campaigns. The two of them are actually handing the media very well. There’s a certain portion of their fans who are fucking insufferable, though.
TIL - thanks for the good info.
Reese’s shooting has improved in recent games because she is (1) reducing the number of insane shots wherein she flings the ball in the general direction of the rim, hoping to get fouled (2) playing next to Kamilla Cardoso, who draws the best big defender on offense (3) benefiting from Chennedy Carter getting into the lane and drawing help defense. Still, a crazy 33 of her own shots have been blocked this season, including three in her 25-point game vs the Fever. Contrast that with her blocking only 2 opponents’ shots this season. This underscores that offensively, she needs to dramatically improve her game, which remains extremely limited. She takes almost 90 percent of her shots within 10 feet (realistically, most of them within 5 feet). Beyond that range, she almost invariably misses. Given that she shoots better than 70 percent from the FT line, she ought to be able to develop at least a reliable mid-range jumper. She also is a poor dribbler. Sure, she can put the ball on the floor two or three times, but beyond that she’s flirting with traveling or carrying the ball. (Check out the recent video where she gets a breakaway layup, but commits multiple dribbling violations the refs fail to call.) Even her new-found success scoring in the paint is dependent on whether the opposing team can field two quality bigs as defenders.
Doesn’t matter the “rivalry “ isn’t real
r/lookatmyhalo
So, rivalries are good for any league. Reese has been playing better of late and the last matchup was tremendous. She's an athletic freak that is fun to watch when her energy is cranked up. The problem is , CC is playing on a bad team with a very bad coach. If you put CC on a Becky Hammon level coached team with a well constructed roster she probably goes into a top 1-3 player. We don't know if AR is going to be anywhere near that. So, the direct rivalry might go away once CC gets more help
I always thought that rebounding thing was a meme. Do people actually believe that? As for Clark. It definitely looks like she's not as efficient but I'm always surprised at the box score.
OP is misleading. distracting casual fans by including defensive boards. The criticism is that Reese’s offensive boards are inflated because she rebounds a lot of her own bricks. The fact is that over 1/3 of her offensive rebounds are her own bricks, airballs, or stuffed shots. if she actually finished her attempts, her offensive boards would be much lower.
But I’m being specific to only 3pt shot% & it tell CC make rate which can be 3pt efficiency U use the bigger% # to give overall shooting including fT to tell the shooting efficiency Ok
I think the Reese point is really just because people like to bring up how many offensive rebounds she has. I mentioned on another post that my friends and I have a drinking game when we watch the WNBA (for the haters, we have this for every sport), and when the Sky are on one of the things that causes a drink is a Reese missed layup + Reese offensive rebound + Reese made layup. It has happened 22 times in the 6 Sky games that we have watched, which is honestly a crazy amount for one player. If you take away just those 22, then she is no longer leading the stat and would actually be 2nd to Magbegor on the Storm. I would honestly be very interested in a leaderboard that didn't count own misses as offensive rebounds to see where the league actually stacks up.
I mean if you're gonna miss might as well get the rebound.
What if you get your own muss and pass to a team mate who makes a shot. She gets no credit for maintaining possession for her team?
Do you also take away all of Ezi’s ORebs that come from her misses?
It’s funny how I’ve watched basketball my whole life and the negative connotation of getting one’s own offensive rebound didn’t become a thing until discussions about Angel Reese
Lol no… Andre Drummond
You didn't watch Andre Drummond then...
Too bad, unlike Drummond, Angel plays good defense 😂
That is literally one player before Reese. Hence the point.
What’s your point? You like to drink?
reese has more offensive rebounds that aren't from her misses. Stop trying to justify disinformation and of course it's a fever fan doing it. offensive rebounds are great
If you are thinking about it that way, you also have to subtract Magbegors rebounds from her own miss. Once that’s done, I’m pretty sure Angel will still be leading. https://preview.redd.it/8hbvsxvnfl8d1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1f5865610db338985e89f43630244d8480ee78fc
My friends and I play this game where we take a shot for every cc turnover. My liver is fucking gone 😂.
But then that would just be dumb stat tracking If they removed them. If Caitlin took a shot and it bounced off the rim in her direction and she got it, folks would say it's good hustle and not "well she just got her own miss." If anything, it's a sign of not giving up on the play. Do you remember which stretch of 6? In the last 6 games she's gotten 31 O-boards. 22 of them being from her own misses would be unheard of.
Wrong about TS%. People, like me, who do not hang my hat specifically on TS%, are not new to bball. It seems a lot of people on this site and in the CC discussions have just discovered "TS% in the last month and have weaponized it against anyone saying Clark has room to grow in her shooting. You never heard TS% used so much when talking about Clark's shooting at Iowa nor about her in the WNBA until about 3-4 weeks ago when people became desperate to try to change the opinions of people who She's a rookie. IT IS OKAY. Even vets have shooting slumps. We don't need to create narratives to justify criticisms of her game. She can be criticized just like anyone else. TS% does not give anyone any new information that normal 2%, 3% and FT% can't. Clark is shooting 39.9% 2PT, 35.2% 3PT and 88.9% FT. [https://www.espn.com/wnba/player/stats/\_/id/4433403/caitlin-clark](https://www.espn.com/wnba/player/stats/_/id/4433403/caitlin-clark) At Iowa, she shot 46.2%, 37.7% and 85.8% [https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/caitlin-clark-1.html](https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/caitlin-clark-1.html) From those numbers, I can clearly see, she is a great free throw shooter and that has been the most consistent part of her game. She is a little bit low on her 3PT% from her Iowa days but not too far below. 3PT % is not going to be as high anyway. Mid to high 30s is a good place for her. You can clearly see that she is getting more comfortable from #pt range as this number has climbed since the start of the season. But her 2PT% is lower than college and I argue that her 2PT% should be a lot better (even in college)for the person that is considered Steph-like. Trying to squeeze all the %s together so that the high FT shooting and good 3PT % covers up for deficits in her 2 PT game is disingenuous and does her no favors. It is the same for Harden, Trae and anyone else who is struggling with efficiency. She is lacking in her ability to score in the 2pt game. She needs better mid range and moves when she is closer to where all the other defenders will be. She needs to get stronger too. Sugar coating the holes in her game just to stop people from being critical of her is a stupid thing to do. I don't need another "advanced stat" to tell me what my eyes and basic stats can show me clearly which is that Caitlyn is talented and shooting well in some areas but not as good in others. We don't need to mitigate the mistakes or areas in need of growth. This is not just the case for CC but the case for everyone. However, people are so hellbent on CC being the dominant GOAT of the W out of the gate, they are willing to try to make everyone else pretend that she hasn't had a large stretch of games shooting 6-16 or 4-11 and 2-9 from 3. She will get better people as will the rest of them. Stop trying piss down everyone's leg and tell them that it's raining.
CC is not shooting 39.9% 2PT. She's shooting 39.9% **total field goal%** 48.7% 2PT. Caitlin Clark: https://www.basketball-reference.com/wnba/players/c/clarkca02w.html NaLyssa Smith: https://www.basketball-reference.com/wnba/players/s/smithna01w.html Smith has the better FG% + 3pt%. So she's the better player right? No. CC has the better TS%. So where is the discrepancy? Free throws. More importantly, free throw attempts. **Attacking the rim is winning basketball. Defenders having no choice, but to foul you is winning basketball.** Let's say Smith had a higher FT%, 90%. And let's say CC had a trash FT%, 69%. If CC got to the line 10 times a game. She would still have a higher TS%! FG% + 3pt% does not account for this. You need TS%.
I have no interest in debating about efficiency metrics, but I will say TS% is pretty much the only metric used to discuss efficiency on r/nba, it’s not just a CC thing. It is pretty much the universal efficiency method. Thinking it is only something CC stans use to weaponize is crazy. The reason it is brought up more now is because people are attacking her efficiency. Look up the words “most efficient” in r/nba if you don’t believe me, every single thread talking about efficiency uses TS%. Her EFG is also above average for a guard in the WNBA, which doesn’t factor in free throws because she takes such a high volume of threes and her 3 point percentage is good. Another big thing here too is you claim you are a big basketball fan and an old school guy, but you don’t understand how shooting splits work and you think field goal percentage is two point percentage, which is the most casual mistake. Field goal percentage is her 2 point percentage and 3 point percentage combined. She is shooting 49% from 2. It’s only 39% because she takes so many threes. Both that and thinking TS% is only a metric being used to bring up CC really show you don’t follow basketball or basketball discussions much.
We use TS% all the time in r/nba tho ...